Conference hydra::dejavu

    Asbestos declaimer : We're well into areas of personal beliefs here so
    suffice it to say that all that follows simply represents elements of my
    personal belief system at the time it's being written ; as such I have
    no wish to imply that anyone elses views are any less valid than my own
    and I'm open to any ideas... 

        
    I don't believe people 'choose' to experience suffering but that
    suffering occurs as a result of the wrong choices - maybe in this
    lifetime, maybe in a previous. Perhaps through choice, perhaps through
    Karma, maybe through a combination of both  ( my view ), some Souls get
    thrown into tougher environments than others - but the environment is
    *NOT* the cause of the suffering. 
    
    It is the mind ( ego ? ) of the participant that perceives ( even
    creates ) the suffering - 'subjective reality' ?  
    
    "The Dhammapadda" (sp?), particularly the 'Four Noble Truths' ( of
    Buddhism ), covers this rather well...


    So, no, the degree of suffering we see in the world is not necessary ;
    it is occurring because we are *not* learning our lessons and not seeing
    the world for what it really is... 
            
    However, I personally, and this is a view that is often misunderstood,
    always try to see the positive aspects of pain - why does it feel that
    way ? what happened to cause that pain ? - and in that way, yes, the
    suffering is *part* of the lesson. But that doesn't mean you *had* to
    experience the suffering to learn the whole lesson ( if you'd got it
    right you wouldn't be suffering  (8^)  ). 
    

    The ultimate goal, is to free yourself from the shackles and cravings of
    the physical world ( as far as is physically possible, of course ) and,
    by so doing, rise above the cycle of life and death ( care to help me
    out here, John D ??? ). From there ? who knows ? an existence on a
    Higher Spiritual plane ? Heaven ? Nirvana ? does it matter, so long as
    you're going in the right direction ? 


    >> is this just an article of faith that helps
    >> make misfortune and suffering more tolerable     
    
    No, more a 'life philosophy' that makes a complete sense of the
    misfortune when it occurs which, logically, makes it more tolerable
    because you understand and realise you can learn from it all. 
     
        
    >> I am wondering: what are the lessons that you perceive we are supposed
    >> to be learning during our lives here on Earth 

    What you learn from any experience is, when it comes to the crunch,
    completely down to *you*. So I guess the answer has to be 'whatever
    you want'...
    
    ...or, of course, 42, now what's the question ?       (8^)

    
    Dave.

	(Excuse me. I'm usually a read-only noter  in this conference,
	unless I have a specific question. But I couldn't pass this one
	by, because I was just having a discussion a couple of days ago
	about this very subject.)

	 As a believer in reincarnation, I ponder the possibility that 
	we could be compared  to students enrolled in a great spiritual
	institution of learning. In this institution, there are many 
	levels of achievement, or "grades". And all around us are our
	peers, underclassmen and upperclassmen. 

	 Perhaps some of these are like freshmen - still learning lessons
	pertaining to selfishness, bitterness, fear and hate. When we
	meet someone who strikes us as being abrasive and obnoxious, we
	might look upon them not as bad persons, but as being at a different
	level of spiritual development. Similiarly, persons who have great
	spiritual power, e.g. psychic talents, are persons that are taking
	or have taken, advanced courses in development that still lie ahead
	of us. 

	 Maybe each lifetime represents a single course. Like college
	curriculum (curriculi?), some of the courses are required, some
	are elective, some are tough, some are easy, some are interesting,
	some boring. We select them, we pass them and go on, or we fail
	them and repeat. Perhaps the ultimate attainment, the equivalent
	of a doctorate degree, is Christ.

	 In this scenario suffering is only such when percieved from the
	narrow, human viewpoint. The physical body and the lower mental
	levels (the lower self) feel pain and anguish, the higher self
	experiences it as the pain of growth. A baby experiences tremendous
	pain when it's teeth first emerge from the gums, but this is necessary
	for the child to be able to sustain itself later on.

	 Since we (or most of us noters, anyway) are not yet sufficiently
	developed to have a proper attunement to our higher nature, we
	feel pain and percieve ourselves as suffering, failing to percieve
	how essential every experience in our lives really is. Much the
	same way I used to think of my grade-school history lessons as
	largely useless, but now view them as essential ingredients in 
	my ability to understand the world and my fellow human beings.

	 All of the above is, of course, one foolish man's opinion. It
	doesn't even address the base note's question, which was What_are_
	the_lessons?. But I feel that there are so many lessons, and none
	of us are working on the same subset of lessons. Sorta like asking
	"what do they teach at Northeastern".

	 Wishing you all a lifetime of peaceful growth,


	Neal
    

    
    I believe that if we don't learn from the past (mistakes, pain,
    suffering, whatever), then we are destined to keep repeating it
    over and over and over....even across lifetimes.
    
    That 20/20 hindsight is worth quite a bit in terms of reflecting
    upon the *real* reasons that a certain situation occurred.  But
    all too often time is not set aside to reflect and learn, and 
    therefore there is no possibility of ever learning from the past
    in this scenario.
    
    Then again, some of us are slow learners......even though our desire
    to learn is legit, it may take longer for some than for others.
                       
    As for what we are learning - *that's* the question, and I believe
    it is different for each of us at each moment in our life across
    the many lifetimes.  These days I'm being overwhelmed by insights 
    that are popping into my head at almost lightening speed.  It's 
    pretty amazing.  Once you're tuned in, it's hard to shut it off...if 
    anything, for fear of missing one little piece which may be the key 
    to solving the overall puzzle.
                                                                
    One lesson I believe is most important to learn in everyone's life
    is that Love exists and that we don't have to *do* anything to deserve
    it or receive it....provided it is the unconditional kind.
    
    In search of Truth,
    
    Cindy

Here's an interesting poem.  It's a little on the long side.  I'll
save the name of the poet 'til the end.  I was surprised who wrote
this.




     The Trial by Existence

Even the bravest that are slain
  Shall not dissemble their surprise
On waking to find valor reign,
Even as on earth, in pardise;
And where they sought without the sword
  Wide fields of asphodel fore'er,
To find that the utmost reward
  Of daring should be still to dare.

The light of heaven falls whole and white
  And is not shattered into dyes,
The light forever is morning light;
  The hills are verdured pasture-wise;
The angel hosts with freshness go,
  And seek with laughter what to brave;--
And binding all is the hushed snow
  Of the far-distant breaking wave.

And from a cliff-top is proclaimed
  The gathering of the souls for birth,
The trial by existence named,
  The obscuration upon earth.
And the slant spirits trooping by
  In streams and cross- and counter-streams
Can but give ear to that sweet cry
  For its suggestion of what dreams!
  
And the more loitering are turned
  To view once more the sacrifice
Of those who for some good discerned
  Will gladly give up paradise.
And a white shimmering concourse rolls
  Toward the throne to witness there
The speeding of devoted souls
  Which God makes his especial care.

And none are taken but who will,
  Having first heard the life read out
That opens earthward, good and ill,
  Beyond the shadow of a doubt;
And very beautifully God limns,
  And tenderly, life's little dream,
But naught extenuates or dims,
  Setting the thing that is supreme.

Nor is there wanting in the press
  Some spirit to stand simply forth,
Heroic in its nakedness,
  Against the uttermost of earth.
The tale of earth's unhonored things
  Sounds nobler there than 'neath the sun;
And the mind whirls and the heart sings,
  And a shout greets the daring one.

But always God speaks at the end:
  'One thought in agony of strife
The bravest would have by for friend,
  The memory that he chose the life;
But the pure fate to which you go
  Admits no memory of choice,
Or the woe were not earthly woe
  To which you give the assenting voice.'

And so the choice must be again,
  But the last choice is still the same;
And the awe passes wonder then,
  And a hush falls for all acclaim,
And God has taken a flower of gold
  And broken it, and used therefrom
The mystic link to bind and hold
  Spirit to matter till death come.

'Tis of the essence of life here,
  Though we choose greatly, still to lack
The lasting memory at all clear,
  That life has for us on the wrack
Nothing but what we somehow chose;
  Thus are we wholly stripped of pride
In the pain that has but one close,
  Bearing it crushed and mystified.





                   -- Robert Frost

    (Insert appropriate opinion disclaimer here...)
    
    Re .2
    
      I agree with Neal about the analogy to school.  To further expand
    on that, my concept is that there are two (or maybe more) kinds
    of classes that the soul can enroll for.  I think that there is
    a lecture type environment on an ethereal plane and then lab-class
    is here on the plane we're familiar with.  Some souls learn better
    in the classroom and some by experimentation.  I happen to be one
    of the latter.  The pain that is experienced in life is nothing
    more than failed experiments.  I also believe that for each lifetime
    we have a few specific lessons (classes) we've signed up to learn
    (take).  When those lessons are learned then it's time to head back
    to the registrar to sign up again.  I really don't think each of
    us have more than one or two new lessons to learn in each lifetime
    but it may seem like more because we do have to review what we've
    learned in previous lifetimes so as not to lose that knowledge.
    If we pass those little review sessions (pop-quiz's?) then we move
    on.  If we fail we may have to repeat the lesson.  There are certain
    life conditions (environmental) that are conducive to learning certain
    lessons so we may choose to born in a certain place under certain
    conditions in order to facilitate the learning.
    
    Sorry for the stream of conciousness sound of all this.  I seen
    to have diahrea of the keyboard this morning.
    
    Hope this makes sense.
    
    Nanci

    On the topic of learning what are your lessons to be learned in
    this life, my wife was perusing a Rosicrucian Astrology training
    book just last night and came upon the following astrological indications
    of which lessons you are supposed to be working on in this incarnation.

        So, for the astrology minded dejavu-ers ... :
    
    	A natally retrograde planet which does _not_ turn direct by
	progression within your lifetime relates to lessons which
    	are _not_ the focus of the current life, and remain dormant.
    
    	A natally retrograde planet which _does_ turn direct by
    	progression within your lifetime identifies NEW lessons which
    	you have 'enrolled' in for this lifetime, and these NEW lessons
    	are often the most important lessons to be learned during this
    	lifetime.

    	A natally direct planet which stays direct indicates lessons
    	which you have encountered before, and may either need more
        more work, or may contribute some prior learning which can be
    	applied to help with the NEW lessons.
        
    	A natally direct planet which turns retrograde by progression
    	within your lifetime indicates lessons which are initially
    	useful for your development, but which become dormant (possibly
    	since they are fulfilled) later in your life.

    Astrologically, a 'progressed' chart is one that is cast for a date/time
    which follows your birthdate/time by an amount equal to one day for
    each year you have lived.
                
    According to the Rosicrucians, the lessons to be learned from a planet
    may involve a number of considerations including the planet's astrological
    characteristics, the planet's zodiacal sign placement, the planet's house
    position within your chart, associated natal aspects, etc.
    
    					Todd

    
    
    RE: .6  Todd
    
    Interesting ideas!  I'll have to apply them to my chart and see
    how they fit.  Some questions...if the planet's progressed position
    changes sign, house, aspects, etc., do you only look at the natal
    position for the lessons, do you only look at the progressed 
    position for the lessons, or do you combine both?
    
    Carole

    Re: .6, .7
    
    Yes, very interesting!  I have seen a lot of clients lately who
    have the outer planets changing direction in their progressed charts,
    but have seen virtually no theories on the phenomenon in any of
    my current texts.  The outer planets, especially, would seem to
    be especially important in this regard.  I've been therefore musing 
    over what this could mean and had reached a tentative hypothesis
    that, especially in the case of a retrograde planet turning direct,
    that the planet's energy, previously held inward, kept part of the 
    inner life, would now begin to release outward, and be more likely 
    to be actualised in the outer world.  This could have a very powerful 
    effect on the person's life.  I have been viewing the progressed 
    planet's retrograde time as the "incubation" of its energy, inwardly
    fertile years whose fruit would appear when the planet turned direct.
    If the Rosicrucians are correct about the "lesson plans", I feel my
    idea makes a lot of sense--during the retrograde years, you slave
    away in private, during the direct years, you show your stuff :-).
    
    Marcia
    
    PS.  Oh yes, what's happening in 2012?  That's when my own progressed
    Uranus will have turned fully direct.

re: .8 (Marcia)
    
>    PS.  Oh yes, what's happening in 2012?  That's when my own progressed
>    Uranus will have turned fully direct.


     Where did you pick this date up from in any of this topic's replys?  I 
     looked through them and didn't see it.  I'm curoius since in the book 
     by Jos� Argulles, _The Myan Factor_ he mentions a date in 2012 as being 
     *very* significant (according to the Mayans)?

Puzzled,
Terry

    Terry,
    
    I didn't pick the date out of any topic's replies.  I just, as a
    personal matter of course, have mapped out my progressions for a
    lifetime (I used 100 years, same as I use for all my clients).  And
    2012 is when Uranus is finally fully direct in my progressed chart; I
    will be 61.  It comes to its station (stops backing up) 9 years before
    in 2003.  I am betting those will be important years, based on the
    few charts I've seen where clients' progressed planets are sitting
    at stationary direct.
    
    It is an interesting correspondence, tho (with the Mayan calendar
    and all).  Maybe I will be instrumental in some way for some important
    change that I can't even imagine.  Even my own astrologer says it's
    impossible to fully predict how one's Uranus transits/progressions
    will manifest; "Expect the unexpected" is her motto.
    
    Another progressed planetary change that has been important in my
    chart:  I was born while Neptune was direct, but coming to its
    stationary retrograde position.  It finally went fully retrograde
    (by progression for me) in 1962.
    
    Marcia

re: .8 
    
     Hi Marcia,

        Yes, I am quite interested too.  Since I am an Aquarian.
I have also been letting some of my inner feeling surface..lately.
but its not 2012?

thanks for the input.

Meredith

    Hi, Meredith,
    
    Unless you were born on about the same day of the same year as
    I was, your progressed Uranus will not be affected as mine is in
    2012.  You see, the progressed planetary positions are not the same
    as transits.  The transits are universal, current events, and affect
    us all in "real time"; they're where the planets actually are up
    there in sky.  Progressions are unique to you and whoever shares
    your birthdate, including the year.  People with the same date of
    birth, say, June 20, will not have the same planetary progressions
    if they are born a year apart.
    
    To reiterate: your progressions are unique to you.  Uranus is not
    going direct by progression from 2003-2012 except for people born
    around January 1951.
    
    One's progressed planetary positions are found by looking up the
    planetary positions in an ephemeris in the following way (BTW, the
    ephemeris is the astologer's reference book that contains the planetary
    positions for each of each year--most are printed for a specific
    decade or century--I have two, one for 1900-1999, one for 2000-2099):
    
    1. Find your actual birthday - the actual day/month/year.
    2. Count forward from that actual day as many days as you've been
       alive for years.  I'm 37, so I count 37 days forward from my
       actual birthday in the ephemeris.
    3. The planetary positions listed on that day (the one you've counted
       forward to) are your _progressed_ planetary positions for the
       current year.
    
    Does this help explain progressions a bit more?  One might well
    ask "well gee, what about transits, then?"  What most astrologers
    do is look at _both_ transits and progressions for a person and
    make an interpretation of trends based on the multiple sources of
    information.  My experience is that you will feel a transit or
    progression most forcefully if they back each other up.
    Example:  I married, and tore up my whole life to do so, during
    a year when my 7th House (partnerships) ruler (which just happens
    to be Uranus--grin) was being conjuncted by a Saturn _transit_ while
    my _progressed_ Sun was just coming into the 7th House.
    
    Perhaps progressed Uranus is going direct in _your_ chart right
    now.  Or perhaps you're feeling the effects of the Saturn-Uranus
    conjunction that is occurring this year by transit.  That transit
    alone has important consequences for (1) anyone with Sun, Moon or
    Ascendent in either Capricorn, Aquarius, Cancer or Leo and (2) anyone
    with planets in 27-29 degrees of the signs in his/her particular
    natal chart (but especially Sagittarius, Gemini, Pisces and Virgo).
    
    Marcia

 re .7: (Carole)

  I went back to the Rosicrucian book last night and found the following
 indications of how to interpret 'lessons' from the progressed chart.
 They still seem to leave room for inclusion of other astrologically relevent
 events into the interpretation, yet the following things were stressed.

  They suggest that it is the _progressed_ chart at the time of the
 progressed-stationary-turning-direct planet which should be given the
 most consideration.  The progressed planets should be interpreted in aspect
 to each other to identify key lessons, yet should be clearly viewed in the
 context of the houses and planetary positions of the natal chart to understand
 how this lesson could be manifested for _you_.

  One subtle exception seems to be when a natally retrograde planet progresses
 direct and then conjuncts your natal position.  This is thought to be the
 strongest indication of a direct encounter with a karmic lesson, and provides
 an opportunity for great karmic 'recapitulation' of the intended lesson, and
 great potential progress or resolution.  In this case, the planetary positions
 and aspects involving this planet in the natal chart are assigned a much higher
 interpretive weight.  If the natal planet is highly afflicted, resolution may
 be much more difficult to achieve.

  A few more interpretation hints that I found in regard to life lessons ...

  The house _ruled by_ the progressed retrograde/stationary/direct
 planet is consistently and repeatedly stressed as being the area of the
 persons life where the lesson will manifest itself most strongly.

  The progressed Moon _phase_ (and secondarily position, progressed aspects,
 etc) is identified as a strong indicator of how the person will react to (or
 be affected by) the lesson.

  They consider the natal Moon (sign, position, aspects, etc) to be the
 most effective indicator of what karmic lessons the person has learned in
 past lives, and thus brings to this life as 'tools' to apply to the current
 life's lessons.

  They also inevitably indicate that natal Saturn should be considered as the
 foundation of a persons incarnation, and thus the background upon which any
 of life's lessons must be learned.

  That's it.  There is quite a bit of interpretive analysis involved here,
 yet determining your life's lesson must be easier than learning the lesson
 itself :-}, and hopefully having some indications of what the lessons are
 can be of invaluable help in recognizing and learning them as they arise.

							Todd

    Thank you, Todd.  This is certainly very thought-provoking and deserves
    a lot of study.
    
    Marcia

    
    Todd,
    
    RE: more work figuring out the lesson than learning from it....
    
    You spoke my mind! (;^) 
    
    I think I'll just wait to be surprised instead.  That's too much
    information for my brain to handle BC.
    
    BC = Before Coffee
    
    Cindy

    Regarding the year 2012, I do believe that is snificant.  That is
    when my mortgage is paid in full!!   I hope I can relax at that
    time and enjoy retirement and not worry about the world coming to
    an end or anything like that!
    
    

RE:  .17 

    >  That is when my mortgage is paid in full!!   

    That *is* significant!!!

    FYI: According to Jos� Arguelles in his interpretation of the Mayan
    calendar, 2012 is when the human race will complete it's evolution
    and no longer require (physical) form.  He says the process is a
    25,000 year phase and we're being helped at this time by beings
    that have already passed through it.  The final period of the cycle
    began around Aug. 17, 1987 (harmonic convergence).  In terms of
    lessons (this topic), he says that whatever is left to learn will
    be learned prior to this time through the assistance of the higher
    beings mentioned above.

    Terry

    
    
    Todd,
    
    Thanks for taking the time to check that out and enter the info.
    
    C. 
   

    I also feel that there are other astrological indications of life
    lessons, in addition to changes in direction by progression.  I
    have not seen this theme dealt with in any texts I've read so far
    either.
    
    Progressions:
    
    	What signs and houses will your inner planets (Sun/Mercury/
    	Venus/Mars) progress through in your lifetime?  Seeing that 
    	progressions are often calculated using the "day for a year"
    	method, this means that none of the planets will make it
    	all the way around your chart in even an optimistic lifetime
    	(I use 100 years--why not be optimistic?).  The progressed Sun,
    	for example, will only make it through 4 or so signs and
    	perhaps 3 - 5 houses in your probable lifetime.  Looking
    	at the houses and signs covered, I think, can show what areas 
    	of life and ways of being you might find most fulfilling in
    	expanding your totality of experience, in becoming larger and
    	wiser with time.  Some of us with the Sun covering the 1st 
    	quadrant of our charts (1st - 3rd Houses) are on very personal 
    	inner journeys; others with our Suns covering the 4th quadrant 
    	of our charts (10th - 12th) are on cosmic journeys with the 
    	major sectors of humanity.  Mercury's progressions can show 
    	how and where, what life experiences will expand your awareness,
    	your mind.  Venus's progressions can show how and where your
    	value system and interactive nature can expand and deepen.
    	Mars' progressions can show how and where your assertive, 
    	empowered actions can broaden and expand.
    
    Transits:
    
    	The transits of Neptune and Pluto are worth looking at, Pluto
    	especially, since its orbital period is some 250-odd years.
    	(Neptune's is 160-odd years).  What houses, especially, will
    	be traversed by these two cosmic change agents?  What areas
    	of life will be subject to profound evolutionary forces, will
    	provide you with the most significant opportunities to
    	progress along your special "path"?  What _is_ your special 
    	path?
    
    One assumption I choose to make when interpreting this way is that
    the lessons we have "signed up for" are _not_ punishments for having 
    failed at former efforts.  They may simply be the next course of
    study for us.  I personally detest any interpretive text that begins
    with "...this aspect/placement/whatever means that you failed to
    ______ in a former lifetime."  I remember picking up Isabel Hickey's
    astrology text at a friend's; I opened it to the planetary house
    placement chapter to read about my 6th House Sun placement.  "Your
    6th House Sun placement," I read, "indicates that you have abused
    your body in a former lifetime and now must spend this incarnation
    tending to it."  "Thanks for nothing, Izzy," I thought to myself,
    closing the book and replacing it on the shelf--and I have never
    opened it again.  Who needs that kind of negativity thrown at them
    when they're examining the possibly fragile state of their souls?
    Is everything that requires hard work and effort a punishment?  I
    think not.  By that analogy, going to high school is punishment for 
    having failed grade school, and if we do badly at that, we get sent
    to college (oh noooo, anything but that!  aaaaaagggghhh...).  Phooey.
    
    For what it's worth...
    
    Marcia