Conference hydra::dejavu

    Re .0:
    
    Before one can address this completely, a few points.  There's a
    phenomenon called "the hag in the night," where the sleeper has
    difficulty breathing, and frequently awakens terrified.  it could
    be that; it might be something else.
    
    > ... I am normally an extremely skeptical person.  This comes
    >from the extreme desire to believe in supernatural phenomena, but
    >to subject it to the same rigor and methods with which all scientific
    >phenomena are investigated.
     
    "Extreme desire to believe" mixed with skepticism sounds like an
    internal conflict.  This might just further stir up the silt.
    
    When I was in school, the "math" courses used tables of [Briggsian]
    logarithms.  We didn't know how they were derived, but we could
    _use_ them, and they worked.  (It wasn't until years later, when
    I was exposed to power series, that I learned where baby logarithms
    come from.)  Now, if you accept the possibility of a phenomenon
    without trying to pin it down immediately, it might be useful, just
    as logs were to us.
    
    >I've never experienced much in the way of psychic phenomenon, probably
    >die to my skepticism, but this experience scares the bejeezus out
    >of me and I want it to stop.
    
    It's instructive you indicated that the "terrors" ceased for a while
    when you used music; this implies that whether there's a supernatural
    aspect or not, the "terrors" _can_ be influenced.  If it's
    supernatural, a good cleansing might help (or appropriate prayers).
    
    If you'd prefer, this can be discussed off-line.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr. 

    The analogy of the logs is a good one; however, clearly someone
    understood them at some point or other.  I didn't mean to come across
    as *too* much of a skeptic.  My feeling on supernatural phenomenon
    is that if we shouldn't delve too deeply into something without
    understanding it.  I can use computer programs written in languages
    I don't know, but if there's a bug, I'll have to learn that language
    to fix it.
    
    I'm happy to keep this discussion open, since I imagine that more
    than one person may have something to contribute.
                           
    Thanks for your suggestions.
    
    - Dan

Even though you mention that this fear doesn't seem connected to dreaming,
you might try working with your dreams.  If you haven't tried this in the
past, you'll probably find that if you make a concerted effort to work
with dreams that you'll recall more of your dreams and have more vivid
dream experiences.  The trick is understanding them.  There are a number
of good books concerning dreams and how to use them (I like some of the
methods described in the _Jungian-Senoi_Dreamwork_Manual).  It isn't easy
(as I have found), but when you get results they tend to be significant.

Whatever method or advice you choose to use (if you choose any at all),
I hope it works out for you.

Terry

    What you are describing sounds like something called a "night
    terror," which is described in various notes in this conference.
    It is an unusual kind of dream.  Since we only understand a little
    bit about dreaming we understand only a little about night terrors,
    but there seems no particularly good reason to associate them with
    anything supernatural or paranormal -- at least no more than any
    other kind of dream.
    
    The kind of dream we are generally familiar with occur during a
    stage of sleep called REM sleep (Rapid Eye Movement -- which
    describes one of the states measurable properties, that the eyes
    underneath the eyelids move back and forth or up and down rapidly).
    These dreams are somewhat coherent -- however strange -- and generally
    have a "plot" to them, contain complete scenes, etc.  In other words
    they are sort of like a movie which we are either watching or
    participating in.
    
    Contrary to some descriptions, dreams do occur in other phases of
    sleep, but they have a very different character.  They are vague,
    very hard to remember, have no coherence, and are usually simply
    one or two isolated images, feelings, thoughts, phrases or whatever.
    
    Sometimes, for reasons which are not understood, these dreams take
    on a single vivid "theme" -- terror.  When this occurs it is known
    as a "night terror".  These are similar to night mares but have
    somewhat different characteristics due to not occuring during REM
    sleep.
    
    Night terrors are common for many children and a few adults.  For
    some reason, adults who have rarely or never experienced a night
    terror may start to for a while.  This is frequently, though not
    always associated with increased stress in the person's life
    (keep in mind that stress is caused by any major change -- good
    or bad -- which requires adjustment).
    
    Sometimes night terrors have a traditional REM type dream associated
    with them.  More frequently they will have a simple idea associated
    instead (e.g., "I was being chased by something horrible, but I don't
    know what").  Not infrequently, there is no memory at all for what
    caused the fear (whether the dream-cause is instantly forgotten
    in these cases, or whether the dream was only the "emotion-image"
    of intense fear, is not known).
    
    You can be fairly sure that the fear is internally generated rather
    than externally.  So the most important thing for you to know is:
    ONCE YOU ARE AWAKE YOU CAN TELL YOURSELF QUITE HONESTLY THAT THERE
    IS NOTHING REAL TO BE AFRAID OF.
    
    The internal generation may, however, be a side-effect of external
    problems -- i.e., stress.  If you can identify the stress and are
    dealing with it, then the night terrors will probably fade away.  If
    you can identify the stress (or have several candidates) but don't
    know how to get rid of it, you might see a counselor -- the stress is
    likely causing worth problems than the night terrors.  If there
    seems no reason at all for the night terrors to develop, you should
    probably consult with a neurologist -- most likely it is only a
    temporary neurological "twitch", but its better to check with a
    specialist to be sure -- once in a great while a night terror is
    caused by something which can be or should be treated.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    		    			Topher

    A suggestion: it could have a physical reason. If you are a person
    who sleeps "like a log" (sorry, this is a Dutch expression - not
    sure whether you use it over there!), then it may be caused by less
    blood circulation due to prolonged pressure on some veins in head
    or neck. If you changed your matress or pillow lately, then this
    could be the reason. 
    
    Arie.

    As always, Topher's (.4) reply was right on the mark!  I also
    experience "night terrors" on occasion, and, like you, consider
    myself a skeptic on parapsychological phenomena.  I was brought
    up a Roman catholic, however, and have experienced fears from time
    immemorial regarding "eternity," which appears the central theme
    of my terrors.  What it involves is the fear of living on and on 
    throughout eternity, with no escape.  (I have known others who have
    had a similar fear.)
    
    My current beliefs ("When life is over, it's over!") have not dispelled
    this terror.  I have mentioned this fear to a psychotherapist, but
    he felt it was the LEAST of my neuroses, and thus did nothing. 
    I have since learned to cope, as Topher suggested, by just telling
    myself that I have nothing to fear, and just going back to sleep.
    At the time, I wake up with my heart pounding, and have to breathe
    very rapidly to replace needed oxygen in my system.  So I can certainly
    empathize with you (.0).  The terror is excruciating!
    
    So just hang in there.  Grab a good book, get your mind off it,
    and try to go back to sleep.  If it reaches a point that it is reducing
    the quality of your life, then seek counciling by all means.  Hope
    it goes well for you.
    
    Jack

    I think that this sounds like very good advice, and I appreciate
    all of the letters both public and private with helpful information.
    It's very good to know there are solutions, and that the solutions
    are no more complex than the problems...
    
    - Dan

         Well, I have had Night Hag as described in .1.  And
         my son has had them.  It is *impossible* to describe
         the feeling.
         
         Music *does* help, and the explanation that follows
         came from a neurologist I visited while trying to
         control them:
         
         Apnea, (cessation of automatic breathing) will cause
         a sleeping person to awake percipitously.  A feeling
         of terror will envelop the person because the body's
         main reaction to lack of oygen is a release of adrenalin
         which brings about the physical state we generally
         define as fear or terror...it is actually the body
         trying to get the battery started again.  The adrenalin
         surge is designed to *jump start* the mechanisms!
         (Yes, it surely does that...yes?)
         
         The rapid heart rate, gasping for breath, cold sweat,
         etc are all resultant reactions of either 1) the
         lack of oxygen or 2) the adrenalin surge or 3) both.
         Very often, it will be followed by a light headedness
         and dizzyness (caused by hyperventilation from
         gasping...oh well you can't win %>).
         
         To music...music helped me ( and my son ) because
         the music does two things....
         
         First, it provides stimulation that subconsciousluy
         keeps the body from falling deep enought into sleep
         to result in Apnea.  Apnea does not happen in REM
         but later on.
         
         Second, it provides *rythym*.  Like stutterers, apnea
         victims seem (scientific study and opinion vary)
         to lack a certain rythym or repetitious quality to
         their autonomic nervous system functions.  They are
         the same people who tend to have irregular but not
         dangerous heart rates, low blood pressure, and snoring
         episodes.  Music played in the background provides
         a stimulus that keeps the works *in beat* so to speak.
         
         Aren't we all strange creatures?  Well, it worked
         (and works when it comes back) for me, and works
         beautifully for my small person.  And yes, STRESS
         does seem to trigger it for me.
         
         %> Mel
         

	Ok. I've read through this conference and am impressed with
    the quality and quantity of people who are active in it, and with
    the normally level discussion that surrounds most of the topics.

	I have experienced something very similar to the sort of terror
    that .0 describes, but in some ways it was more focused.

	In the 70's and early 80's I was a military pilot. I eventually
    bowed out of the service due to an injury that grounded me from
    operations, so, not wanting to a fly a desk while all my buddys
    were having fun around me, I opted out.

	I was working in a high-tech job for NATO in Europe after my
    military tenure and about 1 year later ( 13 mos. ) the 'event'
    
	I had a dream that began with me attending a party somewhere
    in celebration of something I had done ( birthday? promotion? -
    I never did recal what ...). During this party I left to go to the
    washroom. I had to leave the building and walk across the hillside
    to a 'Johnny-on-the-spot' outdoor toilet. On my way there, I started
    sliding sideways on the hill side. I fell to my knees, and about
    this time, the sky became black with heavy angry thunderclouds and
    lightning. I slid down the hillside and noticed that the ground
    was pieces of shale that broke loose everytime I managed to get
    a grip. The hill got steeper and steeper until close to vertical.

	Suddenly I struck against a stone something that stopped my
    fall and I clung for dear life. After awhile I noticed that the
    footing was surer and stood up and stepped back to see what had
    saved my life. It was a huge stone, like a headstone, that stood
    about 10 ft tall and had a granite look about it. Looked like this...

			--------------------
		       /                    \
		      |  HALLOWEEN   2000    |
		      |                      |
		      |   I  II  III IV   V  |
                      |  in  in  in  out in  |
                      |                      |
                       \____            ____/
			    |	       |
			    |	       |
			    |	       |
			   /            \
			  |              |
			  |______________|

(taller and thinner )

I looked at it for quite a while while the lightning flashed and outlined
    the peak of the mountain I had just slid down. It was very distinctive,
    like an eagles beak pointing up.

After a while, I realized that I was dreaming, then 'felt' _something_
    trying to pull me out of my sleep! The senstation is hard to describe,
    put something similar to pulling negative-G's in a pushover when
    flying. ( sort of like the feeling you get in your tummy when you
    go over a 'thrill-hill' in a car - but stronger ).

I fought with the something for awhile, not wanting to wake up to it,
    and felt an awful indescribable fear that makes my neck hairs stand
    up even now as I write this. There was a growing malevolent presence
    that seemed to be trying to take me! I don't know if I was awake
    or not, at first, but when the feelings were strongest, I was. I
    sat on my bed, staring at a space on the wall, but it seemed to
    me that something was _in_ that space that I couldn't see. After
    what seemed like eternity, I started to feel a _warmth_ envelop
    me. Soon, I was immersed in warmth and good feeling, something or
    someone was reassuring me.

	Last year my wife and I were on vacation on Cape Breton Island
    in Nova Scotia, Canada. We were exploring little nooks and crannies
    near the Cabot Trail. As we drove down one dwindling highway, I
    sign appeared - MEAT COVE 20 Km  (or thereabouts). This sign made
    me terribly afraid of I_don't_know_what. I wanted to turn back,
    but my wife wanted to get some Diet Coke somewhere, so we continued.

	When we got to Meat Cove, a thoroughly run-down port village
    of about 300 people, I looked up and saw the eagle's beak from my
    dream, including shale, but no headstone ( or whatever it was )
    !!!!!

	Any Ideas out there ?

	BTW - I never had any recurrence of the dream. & Haven't figured
    out what    I  II  III   IV   V    means yet, either.
                in in  in   out   in


Scooter

RE: .-1

Sounds like a possible past-life experience to me. in which case, it may
mean there is something that happened in that life that is having an
impact on this one.  Could be interesting to expolre.

Terry

    
    Re.5 (Goede middag!)
    
    ...and that's just about all the Dutch I know.  Don't ask me to
    say it though - it will make you laugh if I do!
    
    Yes - "sleeps like a log" is a common phrase here in the US as well.
    
    Cindy                                          

    Well, the past-life suggestion has been made before.  I've never
    had a 'regression' (skeptic, natch).
    
    I prefer the physiological explanations.  They seem to jibe *very*
    well with what I experience, right down to the sitting bolt upright,
    and feeling like I'm on an adrenaline high.
    
    The prophetic dream is interesting!!  Not comparable to my experience
    but interesting nonetheless.  Maybe IN IN IN OUT IN was a binary
    code  :-)
    
    Thanks again for all of the excellent suggestions.
    
    - Dan

    I entered this conference because I'm very interested in paranormal
    phenomena. I'd describe myself as a "cautious believer" in such
    happenings -- though I haven't had many experiences of my own, enough
    people close to me and whose judgements I respect have had experiences
    so I figure there must be something to it all. Anyway, this particular
    note struck close to my personal experience:
    For the past couple of years or so, I've had this recurring (dream?)
    where I'm awake in bed and suddenly a sensation of numbness/paralysis
    starting from my head and working its way down engulfs me. I am
    aware of some force/presence which has me pinned down and is very
    strong. I try to fight, but the more I try the stronger it gets.
    I remain conscious and try to cry out for help, but it seems as
    if my utterances are muffled before they emerge. I am never in any
    pain, but the feeling of non-control is very discomforting. I am
    never sure how long this goes on (maybe I do lose consciousness,
    or sub-consciousness as it may be since it might be a dream) but
    eventually I am able to move again. This only happens when I sleep
    on my stomach, and I don't recall it occurring whenever I go to
    sleep to music. I'm a summer student, and at college for the past
    two years I've had a single. I didn't think it would happen when
    there was someone else sleeping in the same room, but just a couple
    of weeks ago I was proved wrong. My roomate, however, didn't report
    anything out of the ordinary.
    All the comments in this note have been very interesting and may
    prove helpful. If anyone has anything else to add
    (comments/suggestions) it would be greatly  appreciated.
    	Thanks,
    		Darryle

    I don't mean to take lightly any of the responses made so far, but
    taking too much vitamin B6 (more than 300mg) can bring about
    nightmares.  Several years ago I started taking 200mg at night to
    chase off nagging leg cramps.  After one particularly nasty night
    of them I decided to double the dose.  I woke with the most TERRIFYING
    dreams I'd ever had!  It took two more over-doses before I realized
    that it was the B6, and now am very careful not to take more than
    2.
    
    In a book about vitamin therapy I recently came across the following
    advice:  "If you remember all your dreams after taking B6, you're
    taking too much."  So, it seems that this is definitely a case where
    "two is enough, and six is too many!"
    

    
    It is *highly recommended* that you not take over 50mg of B6 per
    day without checking with you doctor first.  This advice comes to
    you compliments of my trusty neurologist and lots of other vitamin
    publications.
    
    B6 will cause nerve damage in doses as low as 200-400mg per day 
    for any extended period of time.  This, of course, depends upon the
    makeup of any individual because everyone is different and has
    different needs. 
    
    If you would like further information, please feel free to contact
    me.  
    
    RE: Leg cramps - Try Vitamin E in a daily dose of 400IU. This is
    a very safe dosage according to my references (and this is what
    I take as well). If you are currently taking any medication, especially
    high blood pressure medicine or aspirin on a daily basis, check with 
    your doctor ahead of time.

Another leg cramp remedy:

	Eat a bananna once a day.

I don't know what vitamins or minerals are in it, but it works for my self
as well as my 68 year old father.

Dave

Re: .16

I think that there is a great deal of potassium found in banannas.


Bob

    
    My chiropractor told me to take potassium and manganese for
    leg cramps...  It worked for me...
    
    Linda

    Yup.  Potassium deficiency can be responsible for terrible muscle
    cramps, and not only while asleep.  When I was dancing actively
    and took all-day workshops in stuffy, hot studios my standard bag
    lunch was an organge, a banana and a cold potato--all good sources
    of the mineral (as well as enough easily digested carbs to keep
    going for the afternoon).  I developed this menu after taking one
    workshop in the dead of July in whose aftermath I suffered symptoms
    of pretty severe potassium deficiency--which can be fatal.
    
    Marcia

    RE: .16 (Dave)
    
    It has something to do with the high levels of potassium in bananas,
    I believe.
    
    John M.

RE: last few

Must be true.  I've never heard of a monkey complaining of leg cramps...

Terry

         
    Terry,
    
    Have you ever heard of a monkey complaining of _anything*?
    
    [The film "Bedtime for Bonzo" cannot be used to answer this question.]
    
    (;^)
    
    Cindy

    Re .22 (Cindy):
    
    >[The film "Bedtime for Bonzo" cannot be used to answer this question.]
    
    Of course not: Bonzo wasn't a monkey; he was a chimp.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

RE: .23 (Steve)
    
    Why do you assume that Bonzo was the most relevant character?
    
    					Topher :-)

    Re .24 (Topher):
    
    Well, he _was_ the title character ....
    
    ;-)
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

Re  .last few



                         Are you guys Republicans?

Bob

    
    Good heavens, NO!
    
    I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Independent (sort).   I actually voted 
    for Anderson.......
    
    Cindy

I refuse to announce my party affiliation because it will both endear and 
estrange me...

RE: .22 (Cindy)

Well, not exactly but I'm sure they do.  Particularily Orangatangs.  I
saw a show once where several complained about their trainer (but only
while his back was turned).  Nothing about leg cramps tho...

Terry

P.S.  Bonzo sure had plenty to complain about - considering the company
he kept...  *<;')

    Re. 13
    
    I know I'm a bit late but I am so glad to find someone who has had
    the same sort of trouble as me.  I was on holiday earlier on this
    year when I had the worst experience of my life,  It must of been
    about 2 in the moring when I woke and I swear I couldn't move....it
    was like sinking into the matress and every musel in my body felt
    like lead I was petrified......I couldn't even open my eyes and
    I felt as if something was on my chest (some sort of animal) with
    it's face inches from mine breathing all over me.  I called out
    to my boyfriend but only managed to groan...however thank god he
    heard me and when I couldn't reply to his questioning he swiched
    the light on.
    
    Of course there was nothing in the room..but I still couldn't move
    he had to pick me up.....he said I weighed a ton and for a mear
    19 year old at 8 stone that was a bit unusual and ploked me in the
    bath a filled it with warm water.  After about five minutes I could
    move again and open my eyes which was a blessing but I wouldn't
    go back in the room it scared me so much so I slept on the camp
    bed in the front room.
    
    I've only experienced the feeling that one time...and I've had some
    pretty nasty dreams in my time but nothing like that.  I find it
    hard to believe it was a dream that could continue for at least
    10 minutes after I awoke though....and I'm not one to get scared
    easy either.......was it a dream ????
    
    
    Christine

    One of the things that I've read about in a number of books is people
    who get out of the body in the dream state and then seem to have a
    little difficulty getting completely merged back into the physical
    body.  The effect of being almost but not quite back in the body is
    part of the experience that you described - being awake/aware in your
    physical body but being unable to move.  In all the experiences that
    I've read about and the 1 or 2 I've had, it's only be a short period of
    time before Soul and the physical body merged again.
    
    As for feeling that something was on top of you, you may have been far
    enough out of your physical body so that you were experiencing
    something happening in a non-physical realm.  It may not even have been
    a scary experience in the non-physical realm.  Your terror may have
    been caused because of your experiencing two dimensions at once.
    
    As to whether it was a dream, it sounds like (to me) that it may have
    been more than a dream.  But it's your experience and you are the only
    one who can decide whether it was or not.
    
    Meredith
    

    Re: .30

Hi Christine,
    
>    I've only experienced the feeling that one time...and I've had some
>    pretty nasty dreams in my time but nothing like that.  I find it
>    hard to believe it was a dream that could continue for at least
>    10 minutes after I awoke though....and I'm not one to get scared
>    easy either.......was it a dream ????

    If you haven't already, you may like to check out the following
    replies which talk about something sounding quite like your
    experience.

    353.19, 744.1, 778.1, 997.1

    John D.

    Re: last 2
    
    Thanks for references ect.  I had a look at some of them and found
    I was not alone when it came to 'something on my chest' think it's
    in 124.0 (can't remember)  Very interesting though
    
    Ta
    
    Chrissie