Conference hydra::dejavu

    
    
    I hope I don't offend you because I would probably find it hard
    to talk about the things that you have.  It seems that your life
    has guided you towards working at the inner life.  In all actuality
    I think we're all here to develop the inner self - our differences
    are just in how we decide to do that.
    
    In my promoting the outer life I may have mislead folks as to where
    I am coming from.  I don't mean outer life in terms of wealth or
    power(i.e. executives, etc.) , but instead being outside yourself
    looking in, or being inside looking out, which to me are both
    different than being inside looking in.  Of course this could be
    my misperception of what I am actually doing, or my misperception
    of what you're doing.  That doesn't seem to make much sense at first
    but it's what I 'feel' to be so.
    
    I never intended to exclude anyone else's ideas, just start a
    discussion based on *my* bizarre viewpoint - however twisted that
    may be.
    
    I can only be me.
    
    Guy
    

    
    	Very well put, Meredith. I really have to wonder just how far
    out on the wrong end of the stick some of those "things" we're taught
    when we were very young are! I did happen to notice how centered
    one friend I had in college was. He came from NYC, but just happened
    to be classicly trained in meditation (in India) when he was a child.
    Contrast that with an education in "How to use negative contexts,
    until you know of nothing else" that a lot of children in this society
    get through a 1001 "thou shalt nots" to learn, memorize, and feel guilty
    about.            
    
    	Somehow, I have to believe that the very first thing to learn
    (say, immediately after "where to go to the bathroom") as a child
    is *how* to get in touch with your inner self. How to visualize.
    How to tap into the so called "inner wisdom".
    	
    	It irkes me somewhat to consider what the motive could even
    be to do otherwise...to me, it must be power and control or something
    of that nature. There are people, ya know, who, if stripped of their
    power to control, are *nothing* - either to themselves, or anyone
    else. How anyone could derive a measure of self value by training
    their child like a dog, with complete disregard to the *childs*
    development of intrinsic value of self, is barely comprehendable.
    	Nearly anyone I know today with a trully opaque sense of self,
    has related a childhood where at least one parent repeatedly impressed
    the idea that "You can do *anything* that your mind sees you doing,
    if that's what you want". (I take for granted that it's anything
    positive, not going out and shooting someone...)
    
    	Joe Jas 
        

    re .2:
    
    I believe that kids are actually very much in touch with their inner
    selves, and society expends a great deal of energy convincing them
    (the kids) that it's not real, and enforcing the concepts of consensual
    reality and the myth of objectivity.
    
    In _The Magical Child_, Joseph Chilton Pearce discusses ways of
    raising children without burying their inner selves.
    
    	bruce

>    I hope I don't offend you because I would probably find it hard
>    to talk about the things that you have.  

Ya gotta try harder than that to offend me, or else just pick up on one of my 
really sensitive issues and drill at it ;-) !!

>    It seems that your life
>    has guided you towards working at the inner life.  In all actuality
>    I think we're all here to develop the inner self - our differences
>    are just in how we decide to do that.

I can't see any other way for myself, other than self-discovery, 
self-acceptance, self-love...they lead to satisfaction on other levels, as well 
as TESTING...a lot of testing from the outer planes to check the conviction of 
the inner planes.  Lots of times, I just want to say, "C'mon testers, why can't 
you just let me revel in a victory stage, just a little bit longer!"
    
>    In my promoting the outer life I may have mislead folks as to where
>    I am coming from.  I don't mean outer life in terms of wealth or
>    power(i.e. executives, etc.) , 

neither did I - I meant, looking to the Outer planes for answers about myself 
and who am I, really; trying to find myself "out there" and often running away 
from the inside because I was afraid of what I might find there.  Working on 
the Inner, for me, is equal to overcoming my fear of myself.  I was raised 
thinking that I Am Wrong (Shame).  So, working on the inner involves 
identifying and erasing the tapes from the Outside that said, "What people tell 
you is right, and what you believe inside, and who you are, is wrong."  It 
involves overcoming my fear of further shame ("Oh, I really am bad, aren't I?) 
(notice the "aren't I" as if I can't trust my own perceptions enough and I have 
to ask someone else...)

>    but instead being outside yourself
>    looking in, or being inside looking out, which to me are both
>    different than being inside looking in.  

My theory; Inside looking out = Getting a picture from the outer world of what 
your insides look like.  Outside looking in = trying to get an objective 
picture (which can lead to confusion): Inside looking in = Finding the core of 
who you are, really...

>    Of course this could be
>    my misperception of what I am actually doing, or my misperception
>    of what you're doing.  That doesn't seem to make much sense at first
>    but it's what I 'feel' to be so.

Being objective is tough, isn't it!  I mean, face it; we each only have our own 
experiences and learnings to guide us into our belief systems and patterns.  We 
each have different experiences.  It's hard to be objective, because we base 
all new incoming data on our own experiences.
    
>    I never intended to exclude anyone else's ideas, just start a
>    discussion based on *my* bizarre viewpoint - however twisted that
>    may be.

"No matter where you go; there you are".
    
>    I can only be me.

Trying to be someone else is extremely difficult.  Just ask me.  I spent the 
first 18 years of my life, being my mother, and have spent the subsequent 10 
both learning what I was doing the first 18, and digging down beneath the muck 
and grime that is her, to find the real Me.  Quite a project!!    

By now, I've built a solid foundation for the real Me; still working on the 
other construction elements!  (And I have to provide my own 2x4's this time!)

;-)
Meredith

    re.4
    
    I don't know what to say now.  I started out disagreeing with what
    seems like everyone and now I feel all of a sudden like letting
    everyone be.  I guess I just feel like arguing sometimes.  Not that
    I didn't mean everything that I said - I was a little bit frustrated
    though.  Usually I don't get either agreement or disagreement, more
    often ignored, which I had assumed was my fault for not being more
    interesting.  I don't think I went through anything to compare with
    what you did in your childhood, but I do feel that we all have our
    own sort of scars that to us are just as powerful.  My parents did
    some things that really affected me like just being so damn God-like
    about handing down decisions from on high and a lack of openness
    from my father.  But I'm such a perfectionist about my own personality
    (though very far from perfect) that I can't stand even these things.
    I don't blame my parents though because they are this way because
    of their parents.  I'm going to make an effort to compensate with
    my own son and still try to keep from going off the opposite extreme.
    I see my own problems magnified and slightly changed when I look
    at my sister.  She has just recently begun seeing a counselor after
    becoming separated from her husband.  She told my mother in phone
    conversations that she remembered one incident that really affected
    her.  She said that long ago my mother had instructed us kids to
    stay away from the construction crew then working on our property
    so we wouldn't be around the foul language that my mother assumed
    was being used.  Except she didn't explain the reason why.  When
    one of the workers recieved a call my sister was not allowed to
    go near the crew and couldn't understand my mother's fanaticism
    about this(she probably yelled).  With no explanation my sister
    was left wondering all sorts of things, which she says affect her
    still.  I know this doesn't seem as bad as physical abuse, but to
    a child it seems much bigger than it really is.  This kind of stuff
    happened to me, but probably not as much.  Still the effects are
    hard to shake.
    
    Guy
    
    

re; .5, Guy
    
>    I don't know what to say now.  I started out disagreeing with what
>    seems like everyone and now I feel all of a sudden like letting
>    everyone be.  I guess I just feel like arguing sometimes.  Not that
>    I didn't mean everything that I said - I was a little bit frustrated
>    though.  Usually I don't get either agreement or disagreement, more
>    often ignored, which I had assumed was my fault for not being more
>    interesting.  

There are a couple of interesting insights in your first paragraph.  What I 
hear you saying is, you decided to write your disagreements in to this file, 
but in so doing, you found frustration because you thought your argument would 
not be interesting enough to invoke a reply.  You therefore made your argument 
a little more pointed than you might have without the element of frustration 
being involved, because you wanted feedback.  How do you feel about what I have 
just said?

>    I don't think I went through anything to compare with
>    what you did in your childhood, but I do feel that we all have our
>    own sort of scars that to us are just as powerful.  My parents did
>    some things that really affected me like just being so damn God-like
>    about handing down decisions from on high and a lack of openness
>    from my father.  

What you say here, and later about your sister, is something that can indeed 
effect your life.  What I hear is, you were expected to accept what your 
parents lauded over you as Truth, unquestioningly and with total commitment.  
Naturally, your curious and intellectual mind wanted to know the Why's behind 
these truths; being asked to accept them, cart blanche, meant that you lost 
control over your own need for logical explanation, and understanding of how 
the world works.  I bet this makes you, to this day, still feel out-of-control 
sometimes.  

What I have found through meditation, is that there are explanations within me 
of why my world is, the way it is, and if I want more balance, how to find it; 
my meditation offers pathways to change; to overcome past problems and 
insecurities by focusing on what I want for my future; by so focusing, I can 
manifest that desired Future in to my Here and Now.  (Of course, I have this 
problem deciding what I really want for the Future, but I have managed to 
identify a couple of things that are helping my Here and Now, like peace of 
mind, and belief that my life is working for me, and that things that seem like 
giant hurdles are actually tests and learning experiences, and I should embrace 
them and thank them for what they teach me).

>    But I'm such a perfectionist about my own personality
>    (though very far from perfect) 

That *could* be a result of the expectation laid upon you at an early age, to 
live up to a certain set of rules unfailingly, without understanding them.  If 
you did not live up to those rules, you were punished and ridiculed and made to 
feel like you were Wrong, and so your own need for perfection was born out of a 
need to feel Right, to make your existence Right, and have purpose.

>    I'm going to make an effort to compensate with
>    my own son and still try to keep from going off the opposite extreme.

This is good, that you have this desire; remember that your parents acted out 
of fear, and if you act out of the fear of becoming like them, you are still 
acting out of fear.  My suggestion would be to work some of your issues about 
perfectionism with a professional, so that you can become more self-accepting, 
which will lead you to more acceptance of just about everything.  Working on 
the inner planes is a wonderful exercise in learning self-acceptance...

You are right; the effects are hard to shake; but to come to true knowledge of, 
and acceptance of, your Self and who you are, really makes the big difference. 
You can look at the incidents of the past and know that even though you lived 
with those situations, they are not truly you.

Guy, it helped me to write this.  I've been having a battle today with my own 
feeling of self-worth because of problems I'm having both on-the-job, and in 
finding a new job.  The job isn't me; what's inside, is me...the job is just 
part of what I do; I am a good person with dynamite potential regardless of in 
what job am I.

Take care, 
Meredith

    re: -.1
      
         That's a pretty good question, Paul, but I think that perhaps
    the answer is that ULTIMATELY (as in, originally) there wasn't/
    weren't any teachers.  So how could that be?  Easy, when starting
    from *scratch*.  When starting from scratch, thoughts, ideas, concepts,
    beliefs, etc. are CREATED.  WHile this doesn't apply necessarily
    to an entity that has been around for thousands of incarnations
    in the *lower worlds* (i.e., physical, astral, causal and mental
    planes) it can describe the energy that manifests as original
    "breakaway" emotions.  If this all sounds convoluted, it may be
    easier to say it in another way...and that is, we can all more or
    less accept a concept of some all-wise, all-knowing, etc. "God"
    which exists in the purest sense of LOVE.  But somewhere along the
    road, it fractures into an infinite set of components.  It "makes
    sense" from this viewpoint to see each breakaway movement as a step
    by step process with each step being the addition of a new emotion.
    Thereby enter the "negative" emotions, such as fear, anger, hurt,
    jealousy, etc.  If each step is a cumulative one, then the residuals
    of the prior steps will likely remain intact.  So, what we end up
    with is a being (human) who has residual emotions from all the other
    activities of its eternity to that point, being born with "negativity"
    intact (although perhaps in remission or dormant.)  Does this idea
    make any sense?  Anyway, the point is that the "Teaching" may already
    be intact and *Culpability* is not assignable to a current
    environmental influence.
    
    
    Frederick
    

    
    	Somewhere along the line, someone decided that the "action"
    and all it's qualities is the same thing as the "person" and all
    his or her qualities. 
    
    	"You've sinned. Therefore you are a sinner"
    
    	The same thing. "The behavior" cannot be seperated from "the
    person". Do a bad job = Bad person. Fail in a relationship = Bad
    person. Lose your self control = Bad person. Sin = Sinner = Bad
    person...
    
    	Only those who have seperated "The behavior" from their true
    concept of self will have the possibility of attaining a well centered,
    grounded state, I believe.
    
    	Such a fundamental thing. Just as silly as thinking the following
    two statements are the *same* -
    
    	"Don't do that now!"	and	"Go do something different!"
    
    	Inequivalent. One is in the negative context, the other is not
    - I MEAN (scratch that stupid "not"), in the positive context. Negative
    contextual motivation keep us believing that the behavior is the
    same as the person. How? Because you just might end up doing *exactly*
    what you were supposedly motivated *not* to do! And then "they"
    can say "I told you so. You really are bad!" What a circle...
    
    	Joe Jas

    {From: Bradshaw On: The Family, p.3-4}

    Chapter 1: Overview: The Crisis

    The last 35 years have ushered in a new awareness about the impact of 
    families on personality formation.  While it's always been known that 
    our families influence us, we're now discovering that the influence is 
    beyond what we had imagined.  We now understand that families are 
    dynamic social systems, having strucured laws, components, and rules.

    The most important family rules are those that determine what it means 
    to be a human being.  These rules embrace the most fundamental beliefs 
    about raising children.  What parents believe about human life and 
    human fulfillment govern their ways of raising children.  

    Parenting forms children's core belief about themselves.  Nothing 
    could be more important.  Children are any culture's greatest natural 
    resource.  The future of the world depends on our children's 
    conception of themselves.  All their choices depend on their view of 
    themselves.

    But there is a crisis ni the family today.  It has to do with our 
    parenting rules and the multigenerational process by which families 
    perpetuate these rules.


    Sickness Of The Soul: Shame

    My thesis is that these rules are abusive and shaming.  They destroy 
    the children's inner identity.  They result in shame.  According to 
    Gershen Kaufman in his book, SHAME, shame is...

	"...a sickness of the soul.  It is the most poignant
	experience of the self by the self, whether felt in
	humiliation or cowardice, or in a sense of failure to
	cope successfully with challenge.  Shame is a wound
	felt from the inside, dividing us both from ourselves
	and from one another."

    According to Kaufman, shame is the source of most of the disturbing 
    innerstates which deny full human life.  Depression, alienation, 
    self-doubt, isolating loneliness, paranoid and schizoid phenomena, 
    compulsive disorders, splitting of the self, perfectionism, a deep 
    sense of inferiority, narcissism, all result from shame.  Shame is a 
    kind of soul murder.  Once shame is internalized, it characterized by 
    a kind of psychic numbness, which becomes the foundation for a kind of 
    death in life.  Forged in the matrix of our source relationships, 
    shame conditions every other relationship in our lives.  Shame is a 
    total non-self acceptance. 
    

    On Shame and Guilt

    Shame is a being wound and differs greatly from the feeling of guilt.
    Guilt says I've done something wrong; shame says there is something 
    wrong with me.  Guilt says I've 'made' a mistake, shame says I 'am' a 
    mistake.  Guilt says what I 'did' was not good; shame says I 'am' no 
    good. The difference makes a profound difference.

    Our parenting rules have not been seriously updated in 150 years.  The 
    high divorce rate, teenage disorders, massive drug abuse, epidemic 
    incest, eating disorders and physical battering are evidence that 
    something is radically wrong.  My belief is that the old rules no 
    longer work.  Our consciousness has changed as has our view of the 
    world.

    {From: "Bradshaw On: The Family", by John Bradshaw, p.3-4}

    Chapter 1: Overview: The Crisis (cont'd)


    Shame Through Abandonment

    Our parenting rules primarily shame children through abandonment.  
    Parents abandon children in the following ways:

    1. By actually leaving them.
    2. By not modeling their own emotions for their children.
    3. By not being there to affirm their children's expression of 
       emotion.
    4. By not providing for their children's developmental dependency 
       needs.
    5. By physically, sexually, emotionally and spiritually abusing them.
    6. By using children to take care of their own unmet dependency needs.
    7. By using children to take care of their marriages.
    8. By hiding and denying their shame secrets to the outside world so
       that the children have to protect these covert issues in order to
       keep the family in balance.
    9. By not giving their time, attention and direction.
    10. By acting shameless.

    Children's needs are insatiable in the sense that their need their 
    parents continuously throughout childhood.  No five-year-old ever 
    packed his bags and called a family meeting to thank his parents for 
    their support and guidance as he leaves to make his way into the 
    world.  It takes 15 years before nature will awaken these urges 
    to leave home and parents. Children need their parents to be there for 
    them.  

    In abandonment the order of nature is reversed.  Children have to take 
    care of their parents.  There is no one to take care of them.  The 
    preciousness and uniqueness which every human child possesses is 
    destroyed through abandonment.  This child is alone and alienated.  
    Abandonment creates a shame-based inner core.


    Emergence Of The False Self

    Since one's inner self is flawed by shame, the experience of self is 
    painful.  To compensate, one develops a false self in order to 
    survive.

    The false self forms a defensive mask which distracts from the pain 
    and the loneliness of the true self.  After years of acting, 
    performing, and pretending - onne loses contact with who one really 
    is.  One's true self is numbed out.

    This crisis is far worse than anyone knows because the adults who 
    parent their children were also abandoned and are separated from their 
    own true inner selves.  The adults who parent are covering up their 
    own shame-based inner selves.  so the crisis is not just about how we 
    raise our children; it's about a hundred million people who look like 
    adults, talk and dress like adults, but are actually adult children.  
    These adult children run our schools, our churches and our government. 
    They also create our families.  This book is about the crisis in the 
    family today - the crisis of adult children raising adult children who 
    will become adult children.    

Re: Previous few.

It seems that there is an attitude in this topic that focuses on exploring
the inner-self.  While I agree with that focus as an means, I do not
believe that is a result.  Sure we should be growing as a person, but not
at the expense of the people we know and love.  If you focus your energies
purely on your spiritual growth, you may achieve incredible heights, but be
alone.  We should learn how to grow from within by helping others, as well
as ourselves.  Where do you draw the line between creating your own reality
and admitting that there are other lives that exist?

Some of the self-help does not address the helping of others.  We focus so
much on improving ourselves and our own lives we're blinded to the problems
of our loved ones.  Sooner or later, we reach a point where we have go
decide if "I" grow, or our loved one(s) grows at the expense of our own
personal growth.  The decision can be made between youself and a lover, a 
child, or a family member.  It sounds like many of the tales of abuse start 
with the abuser deciding that his own "growth" takes precidence over others.

Growth could be emotional, power, or even spiritual.  Remember that one can
be greedy about anything, including spirituality.

Just some thoughts.
Dave

    re: < Note 757.12 by HPSCAD::DDOUCETTE "Armed with only a keyboard. . ." >
                        -< Grow from within by helping >-

    By my definition, inner growth results in the expansion of the self
    to encompass the "all."   Others are part of that "all."
    
    Actions that result in "abuse" are not part of growth.  Growth is
    creation, not destruction.
    
    	bruce

    Re .12
    
    One of the major sectors of Buddhism ( I forget which one but that, as
    the Zen Master would say, is not important right now ) holds to the
    following two rules ; 
    
        1. You *must* develop yourself before you can help others.
    
        2. You *cannot* develop yourself by acting selfishly ( i.e.
           by not helping others ).
    
    
    I guess once you solve the paradox, you're halfway there... (8^)
    
    Dave.

Re:
< Note 757.14 by FNYHUB::PELLATT "The Dragon soon will stir..." >

I agree that spiritual growth can't be achieved alone, but the question is 
whether you "ask-take-cheat" help or give help to others without *THEM*
asking.  Many of the cults/charlatans/televangelists show and teach their
spiritual growth at the expense of their own followers.  In many cases,
their teachings also cover, in a very subtle way, how to get followers of
your own. . .

Many of these teachings and cults are the spiritual equivalent to a chain 
letter.

	Re: .12 - .15
    
    	The following is an extract from a talk I gave the other night.
    	I am currently enrolled in my church's school for mediumistic
    	development, and we just had our first student demonstration
    	night and this was my assignment.  I'm entering it here in
    	relation to the last few replies.
    
    	
    	"The subject assigned for this talk was "What I have learned through 
	mediumship and the Temple's development school".  A whole range of 
	areas could be covered under that topic.  I was awakened one morning
	a 2:20 am and was given the following topic for my talk - "Ego - when 
	is it too much and when is it not enough?" - and as soon as I became 
	aware of the subject, I wanted to go back to sleep and forget about
        it. "How can such a delicate and touchy subject be presented?" I asked 
	myself and my unseen friends.  Couldn't we pick something else?  Maybe 
	a topic that's not so "loaded"?  But the thought stayed there very 
	strongly and I knew it was right.

	As we come into circle to work as mediums, we are asked to leave
	our day to day problems at the door and pick them up when we leave.
	This is suggested so that we don't focus our thoughts on all that
	has transpired between meetings to the point that communication
	from spirit can't get through.  This is a very important practice
	to incorporate into our routine.  However, this doesn't mean that
	you leave *you* at the door.  In fact, to joyfully bring *all*
	of who you are to your mediumship brings it life and expression.
	If you are not able to just be the person you are; if you are
	constantly questioning yourself; how can a mediumship of free
	flowing communication happen?  A more balanced approach to ego
	expression in mediumship is important.  This doesn't mean
    	that a medium should go about telling everyone how good their
	messages were and aren't I wonderful.  There is a very big 
	difference between self-examination and self-awareness, and self-
	absorption - self-importance.  It is saying that a medium, 
	particularly a public working medium, must have a presence of self 
	that brings a confidence to this work.  This means that a lot of work
	has to be done during development time and other times on looking at 
	different parts of ourselves and how we react/respond, as well as 
	sensitizing our psychic channels to receive the messages from spirit.  

	*If we don't know who we are,  how will we know who we are not?*

	.....

	Self-examination will occur to some degree for everyone who
	develops mediumship.  

	....

	I have also found that just living life and trusting the process
	of growth and awareness has brought opportunities my way that
	provided many learning experiences.  
    	
	.....

    	Another area that I would like to touch on just briefly is this.
	All of us come into this world with a basic pattern of potential,
	and into different circumstances.  We have all worked with what
	we have as best we could to get to where we are today.  Some of
	us have more pain and scars than others.  It is so very important
	on your journey that you honor your feelings and thoughts and to
	love yourself.  It is important to realize that each of us is a
	student and a teacher at the same time.  As we come together
	to learn and grow and work, we need to remember to value and
	honor one another, because our greatest lessons of all may be
	through the shared experiences of the person next to us,
    	of their own struggles and victories, of how they have been tested
	and tried, and encouraged and loved.  

	So I guess it comes down to the fact that we are all human beings
	with imperfections and room for improvement.  And that means that
	God loves you exactly where you are, and your guides and teachers
	do too.

	...

	I would like to close by sharing a message that my spirit
	teacher and friend shared with the members of the circle a
	few weeks ago.

	Mediumship is like a very unique flower, and each of us in
	spirit and in body is a petal of this flower.  Each petal has its 
	own color, its own fragrance and its own shape.  The only way for 
	this flower to bloom to its fullest expression is by each of us 
	letting our color glow, letting our fragrance flow, and allowing our
	form to be what it is meant to be.  We can do this by knowing that
	this flower is supported on a very strong stem with deeply connected
	roots and it is fed and nurtured by the love of God."



	Carole    
    

re; .12

I haven't read the remainder of the replies, which by now, totals 16, but my 
"I have to reply" sensor activated, so...

>It seems that there is an attitude in this topic that focuses on exploring
>the inner-self.  While I agree with that focus as an means, I do not
>believe that is a result.  

I do not, and can not, separate the two.  Anything noted on the outer 
planes, and how anything is noted on the outer planes, bears a direct 
relationship to what's going on inside.  I think...therefore, I am...

>Sure we should be growing as a person, but not
>at the expense of the people we know and love.  

Inner growth leads to the further expression of love on the outer planes.  
After a while, you realize that what's going on outside is a mirror to what's 
going on inside.  More self-love = more love for others.  If we're "growing as 
a person" "at the *expense* of the people we know and love"...then we're *not 
really growing* !!!

>If you focus your energies
>purely on your spiritual growth, you may achieve incredible heights, but be
>alone.  

Of course, there is a balance between body, mind and spirit; on the inner, as 
well as the outer, planes.  What I have found is, that as I grow inside, I 
attract different types of people in to my life (magnetic attraction...).  As 
for family, as I change, I observe different things about them, and so they 
seem different to me; they seem to have grown and changed; and as I grow and 
change from working on the inner, my ability to love them, as well as to 
*forgive* them, increases, because my understanding of what is Human, 
increases.  My resistance of someone because of the mistakes he/she has made, 
decreases; I love them *more*.

>We should learn how to grow from within by helping others, as well
>as ourselves.  

Growing from within *is* helping yourself, and until your own stuff is 
together, you are hardly in a position to help others...

>Where do you draw the line between creating your own reality
>and admitting that there are other lives that exist?

Other lives exist within my reality as I perceive it, and I perceive other 
lives through my own mirrors.

>We focus so
>much on improving ourselves and our own lives we're blinded to the problems
>of our loved ones.  

I disagree.  If I spend my life in a way where I am totally serving of others, 
I eventually run out of energy, because I didn't have my own act together 
first.  Having my own act together enables me to be stronger for those  who 
need me.

>Sooner or later, we reach a point where we have go
>decide if "I" grow, or our loved one(s) grows at the expense of our own
>personal growth.  

As I grow, I shine an example to my loved ones, who may grow through my 
example.

>The decision can be made between youself and a lover, a 
>child, or a family member.  It sounds like many of the tales of abuse start 
>with the abuser deciding that his own "growth" takes precidence over others.

That's not Growth; that's a stopping point; a refusal toward growth; a refusal 
to note that what is happening externally is a direct result of what is going 
on internally; i.e., if Joe (fictitious Joe, in this case) is so unable to grow 
that he cannot accept it when I give him constructive criticism, and then he 
hits me, that is Joe, refusing to grow, and using abuse as a means toward 
resisting growth.

>Growth could be emotional, power, or even spiritual.  

and the Outer, as you perceive it, parallels the Inner, in all facets 
(emotional, power, spiritual, et cetera)

Best to you, Dave
Meredith

    
    Re.16 (Carole F.),
    
    Your last paragraph sounds a lot like Gibran's "Self-Knowledge"
    essay from "The Prophet", as I read it again last night.  Unfortunately
    the book is at home right now, though I'll try to remember to bring
    in in and put it here as it is quite pertinent to the topic at hand.
    
    Cindy

Re: .16

That was great!

Re: .17

Maybe I wasn't writing clearly, I believe that growing internally is
worthwhile, but I also feel that some teachings can put people on a path
that is detremental to others around them while very positive to their own
well being.  These teachings can be blinding as well, giving you the
impression that you are "doing good" while around you people are not coping
well because of your actions.

People are not hypocrites on purpose.  I strongly believe that the Bakkers,
Robinson, Swaggart, etc.  all believe that they are doing good in this
world and feel that they are growing spiritually, and it may appear so if
we examine their lives from within.  But our lives do effect other people,
our actions are not in a vaccuum.  As we increase in power, we touch more
lives.  We have to continually ask OTHERS "How am I doing?"  Sure, we
should ask ourselves (that's the within part) but we also have to check
from without.  This "from without questioning" is really a simple sanity
check to see if we're stepping on anyone's toes, but I believe that it's an
important step.  If we forget we gain growth and power at the expense of
others.

Does that make any more sense?
Dave

    Dave,
    	 I understand where you are coming from.  I have a friend who
    is a very "external" person.  does very little reading as I do,
    does very little "soul searching" as I do.  His development comes
    from interaction and using the feedback to modify his next interaction
    (this is described at a very basic level) in a positive manner.
     Wheras my method is definitely introspection.  a need to work on my
    self in order to work with and help others.  He is an externally
    oriented person and I am  internally oriented-but we both are
    approximately at the same level of spiritual awareness. When I met
    him he was probably a more giving person than I was at that time.
      He doesn't have the in depth metaphysical understanding that some of
    us have but then again how much of this knowledge is really significant?  
    Even so at some point he had to look inward and make an internal 
    decision to take a positive path before becoming an externalized
    person.  And I think this is the key to the Zen paradox mentioned 
    earlier:  we must work on ourself(by making the decision to help
    others) before we can help others.  Picking ourselves up by the 
    bootstraps so to speak.  
    
    
    Ernie
    

Re: .20

< Note 757.20 by REGENT::WAGNER >
                           -< Internal or External? >-

Each person has their own path of growth.  Some may be very external while
others are more internal.  It is hard to split how much of each, call it
the Zen paradox, ying yang, etc.  It is up to each of us to choose for our
selves how much.  Too much of either extreme isn't good, and can lead to
trouble.  A balance should be maintained. 

Dave

    I find that I was _much_ more internal 15 years ago than I am today.
    Sort of like I had to spend that time within myself sorting stuff
    out before I could turn a smile to the world outside of myself.
    
    Marion
    

Hi again!

I've done meditating on the Inner planes, and some discussion on the Outer 
planes, so that I could figure out how to say what I wanted to say :-)

I think the Inner and the Outer parallel.  If you're doing something damaging 
on the Inner, your Outer world will warn you.  If something you're doing on the 
Outside is damaging, then the Inner will warn you.  I think the two systems are 
cooperative.  I think the two systems, in all reality, work as one.

Da-da!!  Why did I choose to meditate?  Because the outside world was empty for 
me.  Why was the outside world empty?  Because I wasn't in touch with the 
inside.  So, in a sense, they were both empty.  In my case, I activated the 
inner, and the outer, changed.  So which came first...the chicken, or the egg? 
I guess it depends on the bird to whom you are speaking.

I got a lot of feedback from people, asking me to tell more about my 
meditation (since that's how I got in to touch with the inner, in the first 
place) and my first thoughts were, oh no, this takes too long; it's too hard to 
talk about; too hard to write.  So I dismissed it.  HA.  It kept nagging at 
me..."Tell them about it, Meredith, c'mon, do it..."  Oh, okay. Sigh! (Maybe 
it's just an overactive mind :-))

Necessary to the meditative state, is a state of complete relaxation.  To 
achieve this, sit or lie comfortably, in a position where you will be able to 
maintain stillness of body in a comfortable fashion for at least 15 minutes. 
Close your eyes.  In your most soothing inner voice (not moving your lips or 
verbalizing in any way) tell yourself that the relaxing power is moving in to 
your toes...Work your way up your entire anatomy, to include the spine, the 
buttocks (you'd be surprised at the tension some folks can hold there; OK you, 
I heard that pun) the scalp, the face, the fingers, EVERYTHING.  Imagine 
yourself in some place that makes you feel very very relaxed, like in the 
mountains, or on the beach alone; any place that brings about feelings of 
serenity.  *MAKE SURE THAT YOU ARE IN YOUR BODY, NOT WATCHING YOURSELF FROM 
ANOTHER ANGLE*. To do this, you might want to imagine that you are looking down 
at your feet as you stand on the sand, or in the stream, or wherever your place 
exists.  Now, imagine that white light is moving toward you; a beautiful white 
light.  Imagine that it now is all around you; that you breathe it in (breathe 
deeply, filling your lungs, and out, completely; as you breathe out, imagine 
that you are letting out the frustrations and all that other icky stuff that 
you've taken on).  Feel its protective force; feel its purifying energy.  

RAINBOW MEDITATION:

From this point, visualize that you are walking toward a rainbow.  You are 
heading toward the red part of the spectrum.  When you are in the red light, 
ask for your guide on that vibration to appear to you.  Take the guide in 
whatever form is presented FIRST.  Talk with that guide; it is the guide of 
your sexual/creative energy.  Go through each color of the spectrum in this 
same manner, talking with each guide; 

Red	Creative, sexual
Orange	Digestive
Yellow	Organs of assimilation/accomodation
Green	Heart
Blue	Throat/speaking
Violet	Third eye

INNER GUIDE MEDITATION:

I do not feel secure in recommending to anyone, how to do this one with 
precision, other than to say that you should pick up a copy of THE INNER GUIDE 
MEDITATION (it has been newly revised) by EDWIN STEINBRECKER.  It should be 
available either through a metaphysical bookstore, or by writing THE DOME 
CENTER in Los Angeles (I'm sorry, I forgot my address book today, phooey, but 
the address has been written by me *someplace else* in this file!!)  I will, 
however, tell you how it works for me.

This meditation is based upon one's natal chart.  One's Guide is determined by 
this method, as well; at least the one initiating the meditation will have an 
idea of the approximate age and features of the Guide.  Although one can 
initiate one's self into the meditation, I had it done through a certified DOME 
initiator (in my case, Edwin, himself).  I move in to a cave, walk straight 
inside, and then turn to the left through a passage that leads out; then I meet 
with an animal; we turn to the right, and the animal leads me to where it is 
that I always meet my Guide.  The animal leaves.  My Guide and I will sit and 
talk about what is going on in my life, and what I hope to achieve through this 
particular meditative session.  I will then meet with one of several 
archetypes.  There are 22 basic archetypes; one for each of the 22 Major Arcana 
in Tarot.  These Major Arcana also are assigned to the planets and signs of my 
natal chart.  According to specialized features of my chart, some of these 
archetypes are fused together to represent the specialized patterns.  I can 
also fuse a couple of archetypes together with my Guide's permission.  The 
purpose of the Guide is to keep the archetypal energies from burning me (anyone 
who does the Meditation) out; "overkilling" any circuits.  The Guide is like 
the balancer.  My Guide will call whichever archetype needs to be brought in to 
consciousness, or worked with, or whichever two archetypes are to be fused, or 
whichever archetypes have conflict, so that we can work out the conflict.  I've 
experienced as many as three archetypes being present for one session.  One of 
the three, was a fusion of three archetypes.  (That was quite the session). 
There is one other archetype to mention; the Shadow.  The Shadow is your chart, 
up-side down; whereas I am a Scorpio with Libra rising, she is a Scorpio with 
Aries rising.  It's a same-sex entity, formed out of what the Ego says that is 
the Not I.  Working with the Shadow often improves our relationships of the 
people that we live with, or are in legal contract with, because the Shadow, as 
well as these people, are seventh-house relationships.  I can further validate 
this DOME assumption by saying that I know it works for me.  Anyway, the 
meditation is real work, and involves a lot more than I can type here (I guess 
that's why there's a book!).  The outer world changes and improves within days 
of beginning this meditation.  The only possible problem of implementing the 
meditation on your own, is that your Saturn may test you with false guides.  I 
don't know too much more on that, other than having experienced two false 
guides before I found my true Guide.  The one test you can try to determine if 
you have met your true Guide, is to ask him (it's always a he, in this 
meditation; I don't know why) to hold you and let you feel his love for you.  
You'll feel it if he is.  You can ask him, also, if he really is your true 
Guide.  Take the first answer he gives.

I hope this is of some help.  Well, at least it has the potential to be 
interesting.

Love and Light
Meredith