Conference hydra::dejavu

    Theresa:
    
    First of all, you might want to check my note 121.  It discussed
    some of that a few years ago.
    
    I doubt that Satanic groups are on the rise; however, some of the
    established ones are doubtless very dangerous.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    
    Re .0
    	Somemeone said once that "90% of everything is rubbish".
    this I think also applies to Satanic Groups. Most groups are made
    up of young kids from christian type backgrounds who are looking
    for a way to rebel and find the Asmo./Belz./Ozzy movement as an
    outlet.
    	However not to make light of the situation the 90% is very 
    dangerous due to the fact that stress,drugs,knifes,rebellious
    attitudes, tend to lead to a negative end to a chapter if not a
    whole story. The other 10% i dont know enough about to comment
    on.
    	I dont consider them as a threat personally due to the fact
    that i am not attracted to such areas. However if I had young children,
    kept outside pets, or if my wife shaved her head and had a tatoo
    of a 666 with inverted pentagram put on her scalp perhaps I would
    feel diferently.
    
    Re .2
    	I like the "!" at the end. :-)
    
    craig

     Re .2 (Theresa):                     
    
    At least some of the "grapevine" things may be the result of those
    suspicious of all paranormal activities (e.g., Wiccan rites) calling
    everything "Satanic."  Often, everything given (or assuming) the
    so-called "New Age" label is labeled "Satanic" -- and there's been
    a lot of "New Age" awareness. [Note: I could go on about my feelings
    that the "New Age" is no more than a marketing label.  Let's just
    agree that not everything termed "New Age" comes from the same source.]
    By projection, then, as "New Age" activities grow, these folk would
    say that Satanism was on the increase.
    
    Re .3 (Craig):                        
    
    >	Somemeone said once that "90% of everything is rubbish".
    
    Theodore Sturgeon (though his noun was more pungent).  This became
    Sturgeon's Law of literature (then, of everything).
    
    >	However not to make light of the situation the 90% is very 
    >dangerous due to the fact that stress,drugs,knifes,rebellious
    >attitudes, tend to lead to a negative end to a chapter if not a
    >whole story. ...
     
    As I've noted elsewhere, even if we hypothecate that Satan doesn't
    exist (a dangerous assumption), as long as those who worship him
    would be a peril, simply because their actions would result in harm
    anyway.  That is, for example, if you sacrifice a house pet to a
    nonexistent being, you still end up with a dead house pet.  
    
    If we add to it the possibility that Satan _does_ exist, that makes
    it worse (but had best be thrashed out in another Conference).
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.                                  

    
    do,do,do,do, 2nd attempt to enter this.
    
    .4 Steve
    	I am taking this as a statement reinforcing what I wrote in
    	.3 , am I...
    		a) Correct in this assumption?
    		b) Confused?
    		c) all of the above?
    
    .5
    	The "New-Age" or White-washed-old-age is (in general) being
    accepted. The current attitude/atmosphere of acceptance allows
    many groups not "connected" with "New-Age" to go more "public" than
    before. (New-Age is connected)
    
    	I agree about feeling sorry for the young folk. Perhaps I should
    of said "respectful-concern"? Meaning that I would want to help
    them but would do so with extreem caution and would never attempt
    it without the aid of an outside support group to monitor me.
    
    	The groups (in your area)  you say are "more serious" but then
    say they recruit children. Somehow I cant picture kids being able
    to have the patience or have the comprehension for initiations and
    other stuff and cant see an orthodox/serious group taking such an
    initiation seriously.
    
    	My bet is that these are groups using the name of other groups
    as a cover for drugs ect. You might wish to contact the headquarters
    of the groups that you have mentioned to see if they are indeed
    associated with the groups they claim they are with.
    
    Craig
    

    Re .6 (Craig):
    
    a.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    My feelings are that some one the lunatic fringe (of both sides
    of the fence) are reacting more emotionally than rationally to things
    different than their norm.

    This is not a flame. It is a message to all members of the New Age and
    neo-pagan community to not take part in *dangerous* speculation. 
    
    Please be careful Theresa, there is a national libel campaingn on
    against witches and others different from the Christian norm.
    
    >Maybe it all started with the murder of a teenager, said to be
    >linked with a human sacrifice.  (Douglasville)  Maybe not.
     
    Part of the campaign is to generate suspission and hate against such
    "out groups" via *speculation* about violent crime. Don't be a part of
    that speculation if you don't want to continue the disguised hate
    mongering. 
    
    From what I know about you personally *you* are a target of this
    campaign, only you don't know it yet.
    
    >The police have found desecrated graveyards, altars and much vandalism
    >in the N. Fulton area. There was a news report, interviewing a few
    >persons who were part of such groups.  One woman stated she "Saw Satan,
    >or the Devil".  She also said she would dispose of the bodies after
    >their ceremonies. 
     
    And you suppose they're telling the truth?
    
    >Now there's a small boy missing.  8-year old Joshua Harmon, last
    >seen Sunday night, wearing cut-off blue jeans and a white shirt.
     
    Now you have associated the out groups with this missing child.
    The out groups are now speculative criminals.
    
    >If anyone could help, please let me know.
    
    If a violent crime has been committed it would serve the community
    well to bring the perpretrators to justice. Please watch how you
    speculate.
    
    >comments welcome on these groups... any in your neighborhood?
    >Do you perceive them as a threat?
     
    Margo Adler talked to a cult crime detective late last year. She asked
    him how many real violent crimes took place in a five year period in
    the Baltimore and D.C. area, which also included five other large
    cities. Disregarding church desecrations by drunk or rebellious
    teenagers, and gang type confrontations there was only ONE crime
    that was considered a real cult crime. All the rest were speculation.
    
    Yes these people are around and they are not a threat to me. The
    Temple of Set has their own BBS, along with some others. They are
    not a problem.
    
    Sick twisted people are the problem. Unfortunately some of them are
    Christian, some are members of the various outgroups and some have
    badges and guns. 
    

    Re .9 (Mikie?), others:
    
    >Sick twisted people are the problem. Unfortunately some of them are
    >Christian, some are members of the various outgroups and some have
    >badges and guns. 
     
    This is a line where we all have to tread very carefully.
    
    In the United States, an individual is presumed innocent of a crime
    until proven guilty beyond a reasonable shadow of a doubt.  Let's
    keep that in mind.
    
    Also, the Constitution of the United States guarantees freedom of
    religion, even to the worship of an abhorrent one.
    
    >Please be careful Theresa, there is a national libel campaingn on
    >against witches and others different from the Christian norm.
     
    But have a care that not all (or even the majority of) Christians
    are a part of that campaign.  
    
    >Part of the campaign is to generate suspission and hate ....
    
    Being aware of that possivbility is something; the _potential_ to
    generate counter-suspicion/hate is something to be careful to avoid.
    
    With regards Satanism: if (and note the conditional) the worshippers
    of a being called Satan believe they do so because he is evil and
    the Prince of Darkness, then such people would logically admire
    evil acts and might even perform such acts to please the being they
    worship. [Do specific groups, such as those named in previous groups
    fall into this category?  I do not know, and unless you are either
    a member of such a group or one privy to its inner workings, neither
    do you.]  As noted elsewhere (note 121, for instance), a _true_
    Satanist is most likely a Christian, Moslem, or Jew whose perspective
    is, according to the tenets of their respective faiths, a moral
    inversion.  Such people I'd personally consider dangerous.
    
    However: as I noted in .4, some people take the tag "Satanic" and
    apply it to anything and everything they are suspicious of or just
    don't like.  Sometimes they rationalize [e.g., "They're falling
    into Satan's trap."]; sometimes they merely _declare_ something
    Satanic.  That doesn't make it so.
    
    In the disciussions here and in other notes, we should be especially
    sensitive to this.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
     

    The Satanic Church has a ritual involving the sacrifice of innocents
    . their two major centers are in san diego and jacksonville fla.,There
    was an informative article in penthouse about this two or three
    years ago if you're interested. 

    re: .12
    
    Just a reader curious to know more about "The Satanic Church" in
    my hometown, Jacksonville, Fl.  I lived there for 21 years and have
    never heard of such.  Do you have more info (about the location
    or the actual name of the church)?
    
    Jennifer

    There was, and perhaps still is, a Church of Satan, run by one Anton
    Lavey. He succeeded in pissing off most his people by demanding
    more money. One Michael Aquino and his wife started the Temple of
    Set to continue the tradition without the massive greed of Anton.
    
    There is a topic in ::Religion on the Temple of Set.

    
    Re:.15
    
    	I read the Satanic Bible a few years ago, by Lavey, and found
    the writings geared toward debauchery of everything. The whole thing
    was about tramping on the weak and taking there money. I didnt see
    anything but self fulfillment through excess at the expense of others
    mentioned through the whole book (I could have read the Wall Street
    Journal)[;-)].
    
    	What I am getting at is the question... What tradition are you
    refering to?
    
    Craig

    I think that some of this stuff is misplaced...er..blame by 
    some parents of victims of [what appears to be] violent crime.
    I've seen parents on TV decrying Dungeons and Dragons and talking
    about Satanic practices that have killed teen-agers. I'm also aware
    of a rash of deaths of teen-agers from "Self <Iforget> Asphyxiation"
    which is a ...uhm...self-stimulatory sexual practice.
    
    In at least some of the cases of supposed Satanic death, the victims
    were teen-age males found hanging in circumstances identical to
    the victims of the sexual practice. I think some of the parents
    are either unaware of this sexual practice and of how apparently
    common it has become, or they'd rather think their child had been
    killed in some Satanic connection than in some sexual practice.
    
    Dawn
    

    I agree that some of this so-called satanic stuff is misplaced blame.
    There is the auto-erotic asphyxiation stuff, that many parents can't
    face, and find it easier to blame the so-called Satanists.  
    
    Some very disturbed young people get involved in Dungeons & Dragons,
    get wrapped up in the game, and their character, something happens
    to the character, and they commit suicide.  Much easier for the
    parents to believe that this evil game took their wonderful child
    and destroyed him, than to believe that their child was a very
    disturbed individual greatly in need of help, and D&D was enough
    to push him over the edge, and had it not been for D&D, something
    else would have provoked the suicide.
    
    However, in this case, I doubt if it is anything like this, since
    these children are around 4-6 years old.  Still, I suspect that
    these children are being abused simply for someone else's sexual
    greed, rather than anything really satanic.
    
    Elizabeth

    I don't know that much about the TOS. You'll have to check out their
    material in ::Religion.

Colorado Springs _Gazette Telegraph_, Wednesday, May 25, 1988
Page One

		  MUTILATIONS RAISE SPECTER OF SATANISM

	Maimed animals found in teens' hangout spur police concerns

By Erin Emery, Gazette Telegraph

Discoveries of mutilated animals in an isolated area on the city's west side 
have fueled concerns by police that Satanism - or devil worship - is growing 
in popularity among local teen-agers, police said.

Six dogs, six rabbits and seven cats, many that were decapitated, skinned or 
gutted, have been found in the past year at the "old mill" near 21st Street 
south of U.S. 24, said Colorado Springs Police Sgt. Richard Resling.

Referred to as "the ruins" by local teens, the area - the site of the Golden 
Cycle mill that once processed gold ore - is a haven for transients, teen-age 
partiers and Satanists, police said.

Locally, Colorado Springs police have identified 24 Satanists ages 13 to 19.  
And police have obtained a "blood list" identifying "blood partners" - those 
who cut their skin to mingle their blood with others, Resling said.

"We think it's juveniles," he said.  "But againk what kind of kid sits there 
and takes apart dogs and cats and rabbits at that age?  There's a trend 
developing, I think, and that's why we're concerned.

"You just can't write it off as kids when they are taking animals apart for 
kicks.  What are they going to do when they turn 20?"  Resling said, adding 
that in rare cases, Satanism has led to human sacrifices.

"This is beyond being an average teen-ager," he said. "We see enough of it that 
I can put a guy (an investigator) on it to track it.  We're seeing more than we 
care to."

Local teen-agers who are familiar with the ruins say they have seen signs of 
activities that could be attributed to Satanism, but that such signs are 
limited.  Mainly, the ruins area is a meeting place for teen-agers, they say.

A 16-year-old girl from Coronado (note; my alma mater!) who asked not to be 
identified said she saw one of the dead dogs, a black Labrador retriever, while 
visiting the ruins a few months ago.

"I know the people who took the skull and the one who took the paws," she said. 
An 18-year-old woman used the dog's paws for a necklace, the girl said, and a 
19-year-old man removed the skull to use as a water bong, a device that could 
be used to smoke marijuana.

"I do think the Satanists are there," said the girl.  "I went there with a 
friend one night and this man just appeared out of nowhere.  He looked at us 
and said, "You're going to die before the sun rises."

She described the man as about 30 years old, dressed in black and wearing a 
long, blond wig.

The girl, who said she is involved in the "alternative scene", said the old 
mill site is a nice place to go, where teens can talk and take photographs of 
the ruins and the graffiti.

The scribbles at the ruins include spray-painted phrases, such as: "Satan has 
your soul," "Choose Death" and "Free Manson."  Also scrawled on the walls are 
inverted crosses, '666' - the sign of the beast or the devil - pentagrams and 
drawings of the devil's face.

In some spots, Christians have fought back with their own words in spray paint: 
"Jesus Lives."

Another Coronado High School student defended the ruins as a place where "Kids 
can express their feelings and write it there and see what other kids have to 
think."

"I think it's just a trend," the 16-year-old said of the Satanistic signs.  
"Last year it was bisexuality, and all the writing like '666' - I don't think 
it's serious."

Asked about cutting the head and paws off a dog, the teen replied, "that's 
absurd.  It's never justified and it's pointless to me."

Police intelligence officer Ben Reed described the mutilation of animals as 
"psychotic", but added that he did not believe most of what happens at the 
ruins is true Satanism.  Police are not aware of a Church of Satan in Colorado 
Springs, he said.

But Stephen Phinney, a family and child therapist and president of Release 
Ministries, a counseling firm that studies alternative religious groups, said 
he recognizes the graffiti and animal mutilations as initial stages of 
Satanism.

And police say the 1986 vandalism of St. Paul's Catholic Church in Colorado 
Springs and the 1987 desecration of two cemeteries - Evergreen and Fairview - 
are related to devil worship.  In those cases, five teens were taken in to 
custody.

Police also have found evidence of Satanism in caves near the Rockrimmon (note; 
DEC CXO is on Rockrimmon Blvd S) area, in Garden of the Gods and at the vacant 
South Junior High School, Resling said, adding that Satanists prefer to perform 
rituals in areas that are vacant or have limited public access.

Typically, teen-agers - primarily boys - first get involved when a Satanist 
takes them to a party where there is "a lot of drugs, sex and rock 'n' roll," 
Phinney said.  Usually, drugs and sex are prevalent to seduce them, he said.

When a recruit seems to show a commitment to his new-found friends, he is shown 
rituals, Phinney said.  If the recruit doesn't balk at the acts, he is accepted 
and then begins to do such things as animal mutilations.

After committing the acts, a boy can be initiated into the Church of Satan, 
Phinney said.  He may be asked to drink the blood of an animal or human, urine, 
or a mixture.  And he may be told to watch sexual acts without being repulsed 
or aroused.

After initiation, a recruit can be promoted to a "high priest" after performing 
other numerous acts, Phinney said.

Police say they have no evidence of such human sacrifices in Colorado Springs.

Phinney said he believes the decapitation of a man whose body wasa found south 
of Pueblo earlier this year was related to Satanism.

But police have arrested a suspect in that case.

Teens involve in Satanism usually are withdrawn, Phinney said.  they often own 
inverted crosses, and at times wear very dark makeup.

[reprinted without permission]

    Re .20 (Meredith):
    
    Thanks for entering that.  A few comments --
    
 > .......... ["The ruins" site] is a haven for transients, teen-age 
 >partiers and Satanists, police said. ...      
  
    That's an odd admixture.
    
>Locally, Colorado Springs police have identified 24 Satanists ages 13 to 19.  
>And police have obtained a "blood list" identifying "blood partners" - those 
>who cut their skin to mingle their blood with others, Resling said.
 
    One 1) wonders how this list was "obtained"; also whether this list
    relates to the killed/mutilated animals.
    
>"We think it's juveniles," he said.  "But againk what kind of kid sits there 
>and takes apart dogs and cats and rabbits at that age? ..." 
    
    Or any age.
    
>Local teen-agers who are familiar with the ruins say they have seen signs of 
>activities that could be attributed to Satanism, but that such signs are 
>limited.  Mainly, the ruins area is a meeting place for teen-agers, they say.
 
    Note the "could be."
    
>"I know the people who took the skull and the one who took the paws," she said. 
>An 18-year-old woman used the dog's paws for a necklace, the girl said, and a 
>19-year-old man removed the skull to use as a water bong, a device that could 
>be used to smoke marijuana.
>
>"I do think the Satanists are there," said the girl. ...
 
    Note: the girl 1) believes Satanists use the place; and 2) knows the
    people involved in the decapitation/mutilation.  She didn't identify
    them as Satanists.
    
>Police intelligence officer Ben Reed described the mutilation of animals as 
>psychotic", but added that he did not believe most of what happens at the 
>uins is true Satanism.  Police are not aware of a Church of Satan in Colorado 
>prings, he said.
  
    Aha!  A voice of reason.
    
> ... police say the 1986 vandalism of St. Paul's Catholic Church in Colorado 
>prings and the 1987 desecration of two cemeteries - Evergreen and Fairview - 
>re related to devil worship.  In those cases, five teens were taken in to 
>ustody.
 
    That sounds like the real stuff.
    
>Police also have found evidence of Satanism in caves near the Rockrimmon (note; 
>EC CXO is on Rockrimmon Blvd S) area, in Garden of the Gods and at the vacant 
>outh Junior High School, Resling said, adding that Satanists prefer to perform 
>ituals in areas that are vacant or have limited public access.
 
    I'd be curious what the "evidence of Satanism" the police are alleged
    to have found.
    
    Now understand: I believe there are Satanists, that they are evil
    folk, and that they are dangerous; sometimes very dangerous.  However,
    whoever reported this has taken different, and possibly unrelated,
    incidents and has combined them into a story that best can be described
    as sensationalistic.  A great deal of the latter part of the story
    are the attributed, but unsubstantiated, claims of Stephen Phinney. It
    might be worthwhile to find out a little more about the Release
    Ministries "counseling firm" he heads.  
    
    As I've noted elsewhere, there is substantial evidence of actual
    Satanic activity, and one should be alert for it (particularly if
    you have children or pets); but a story like this can cause people
    to become paranoid about things that may be occurring outside a
    Satanic context (rituals, rock'n'roll, sex).
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    
    	
    Re: .20
    	> the area - The site of the Golden Cycle Mill that once processed
    	> gold ore - is a haven for transients, teen-age-partiers and
    	> Satanists, police said.
    
    Well where are the NORAD and Carson people supposed to go now that
    the Peppermint Lounge is gone! ;-)
    
    but seriously...
    
     	Having visited the ruins a few years back with some local folks
    who at the time regularly visited the place, I will have to agree
    with the 16 year old. "Last year it was bisexuality" It was an "odd
    admixture" then (with Country Music thrown in) and it sounds like
    it still is.                                  
    
    However...
    	The animal mutilations are difinately the works of PSYCHOTIC
    people and having met Officer Reed once I do believe the matter is
    in capeable hands.
    
    
    	It also might be interesting to add some light on the sociological
    enviornment of the springs to possibly understand the factors that
    can cause kids to go off the wall. (animal mutilations excluded)
    
    	Colorado Springs has I believe an extreemly high unemployment
    rate. this might not be the concern for kids but is the concern
    for parents as well as the concern for Seniors in HS who will soon
    join the work force. 
    
    	The Springs also has a rather high dropout rate as compared
    to the rest of the country (1983-84 figures).
    
    	Add to this the number of new people comming to the Springs
    each year and you start to get an awkward development of a community.
    	
    	Are there any other factors people out there in terminal land
    	can think of that promote such actions by the young youth of
    	America? (our leaders for tomarrow?!)
    
         
    Thank you very much for entering that it was a DEJAVU experiance!
          
    Re: .21 
    	Ditto, YES, Exactly, Nail right on the Head!, I concur and agree!
    
    
    Craig.
                                             

    
    
    the penthouse article also mentioned that the lavey satanists journeyed
    to mexico to obtain human heads for rituals due to lack of police
    infrastructure and enforcement. This particular article also 
    mentioned the Son of Sam killings as ritual satanic murder with
    the subsequent killings used to disguise the nature of the 
    action. The perpetrator originally substantiated the claim
    but due to the cults practice of obtaining members family photos
    and address' for retribution if necessary caused him to later retract
    his assertions                                       Lew

    >The perpetrator originally substantiated the claim but due to the cults
    >practice of obtaining members family photos and address' for
    >retribution if necessary caused him to later retract his assertions
     
    I kinda' doubt this. Once the information is out it can never be
    recalled. This part of the interview sounds bogus. 

    RE.24  Actually, He just didn't elaborate on his testimony. I  
    met a satanist once even. A weird dude, a maztec indian from south
    Cal. I played a game of raquette ball with him and on the third
    stroke split my eye orbit open with my own raquette.  
         Maybe it was bad energy, who knows? He told me one of the
    "steps" up in his group was to sacrifice an innocent. 
    he even invited me out to call down satan, didn't though, afraid
    i was to be the sacrifice. No, He said it would be groovy, the
    devil sounded like an air force jet when landing. 
    Yea, I suppose my screaming might have a sound like a jet.
    Moral; don't play with psychos.

    Two things for locals in the Springs...
    
    There is a teenage group that hangs out at Richards who look like
    Satanists but evidently are not. 
    
    These teens display their pentacles (point up) proudly, dye their hair
    black, paint their nails black and wear black clothes. Their reasoning
    is that they are protesting the death of the earth. 
    
    They evidently call themselves witches, but reports are that while they
    may play around with the Necronomocon (sp?) they will not hurt animals
    of any type or kind.            
    
    If you see these teens please don't assume that they are Satanist
    because of their dress.
                                                        
    Also, the media here is getting story hungry. One of the teens, not
    associated with the above, took a TV media person on tour at the
    "ruins", a place with upright columns and where art students have
    painted pictures of various gods and goddesses. In the video
    presentation, the poor boy was indirectly branded a Satanist. No media
    person is safe... Be careful what you say and to who. 

I have placed into ::Religion a large text file (broken up) on activity
related to this topic. Please reference 192.* in ::Religion. 

    Also I have placed into ::Religion, 192, a list of the targeted
    groups.

    Re .26 (Mikie?):
    
    >They evidently call themselves witches, but reports are that while they
    >may play around with the Necronomocon (sp?) they will not hurt animals
    >of any type or kind.            
     
    Nevertheless, "playing around" with the pseudo-_Necronomicon_ is
    plain dumb.  The _Necronomicon_ is discussed in detail in Note 46.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    RE: .13
    The High Church Of Satan was formed quite a number of years ago.
    The first church to be formed was in San Fransico. The man who
    allegedly heads the USA national chapter is Anton Levy who is pictured
    in the inside spread photo in the Hotel California album by the
    Eagles. He is the man in the goatee (has a "weird" look in his eye)
    standingin a *balcony* overlooking a contained courtyard. 
    
    This *church* movement is very real. There is an active chapter
    which has come out of the closet about a year ago in Hudson NH.
    In fact one year ago the Hudson high school was having a book fair
    and one of the bestsellers (now this was for the kids) was the satanic
    bible!
    
    Another incident which allegedly happened in Andover MA not more
    than 5-6 months ago is a church building -- denomination unknown
    opened and had a service .... people allegedly (I heard this second
    hand) came running out in a hysterical panic ... the FBI was called
    in and the building boarded up. They all left so fast they forgot
    to shut off the lights so it remains lit and sealed. Made a very
    small one nite splash in the local papers and then vanished.
    
    I agree with Steve personally........Satanael may indeed exist ...
    if the stinker does I don't fear him as I have a VERY LARGE FRIEND
    on my side. I AM concerned about those who do follow that path as
    they would be prone to doing many things of a negative nature whether
    or not they belonged to the dark church. 
    
    AISVAX::BUCUVALAS ... aka ... Samurai Writer