Conference hydra::dejavu

    Not by sight, but, I spent alot of time at this 200 year old farm
    house and the den where we spent our time was at the end of the
    house closest to the barn.  It was the huge two story barn.  I can't
    tell you how many times we went out to investigate a pounding noise
    in the barn.  After a while we realized that it was coming from
    the area of the two standing stalls where the work horses were kept.
    Ghost horses?  I don't know, but we were never able to explain the
    noise.  As an animals lover myself, I've often wondered about this,
    Don't they have spirits or souls?   I'm sure we have many other
    opinions out there, let's here them!
    

    Naturally, this is an opinion:
    
    Animals have souls.  Looking into the eyes of my cats (past and
    present), I can see (or have seen) their littler innocent souls
    shining out to me.
    
    George Bernard Shaw once said, "A Heaven without animals would be
    a dreary place indeed."  A marvelous sentiment.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    
    
    I agree with Steve that animals have souls.  I also know of a
    very talented medium who is also clairvoyant, and he has seen
    many animal spirits.  I have had a couple of private readings
    with him, and some of my animal friends that have passed over
    have come back to say hello.
    
    Carole
    

    I Defintely believe that animals have souls!
    
    While in Ireland I was told a few stories of Pookas which are
    animal spirits. Does anyone know more about them?
    
    cb
    

    re:  .4
    
    A pooka, I believe, is a tall (some say 6' or so), white, invisable
    rabbit.
    
    Marion
    

    	The morning after my dog died I felt his presence laying 
    	next to me, certain that if I opened my eyes I would see
    	him quietly snoozing atop the bed.
    
    	Don't know whether this was due to monumental grief or if 
    	he was actually there, but I derived great comfort from
    	the experience and can still feel his energy at times.
    
    						Carla
    

	In the place where I used to live, two kitty cat ghosts, one
	white and one black, used to appear from time to time.  I
	moved at Spring Equinox, and the kitties started appearing
	again about two weeks ago.  I think they like me!  I have
	two cats of my own, and they don't seem to mind.  I don't even
	know if they notice!

    RE: .4
    
    So THAT's what a pooka is!
    
    Who is "tinker?"
    
    John M.

    Harvey, the six foot rabbit, in the Movie comedy with Jimmy
    Stewart was refered to as a "pooka" or animal spirit; what
    I heard in Ireland is that pookas are animal spirits from
    the fairy kingdom and take on many forms cats, rabbits, dogs,
    whatever.. Does anyone know what they represent?
    

    			{pookas}
    
    The pooka, in Irish folklore, is usually an incredibly beautiful,
    tall black horse, though it can change shape to appear as numerous
    other animals.  It's not an animal spirit in the sense of being
    the soul of a deceased animal; rather, it's a fairy (or sidhe) which
    takes animal form.  It's occasionally helpful (ie, some tales tell
    of tired travelers wishing for a ride, only to have a horse appear
    which takes them to a nearby inn, then disappears), but more often
    it's a pest.  I use the singular form, by the way, because these
    "spirits" are normally loners, and some tales insist that there
    is but one Pooka.  It was once considered dangerous, a creature
    which would bear the sinful at impossible speeds about Ireland,
    only to jump off a cliff and pitch its terrified rider to his/her
    death; today, however, it generally limits itself to promising drunken
    wayfarers a ride home, then does its galloping about bit with them,
    only to pitch them back into the ditch where it found them (now
    terrified and stuck with a story which no one will believe, of course).
    According to several tales I've encountered, this mellowing of the
    pooka was the doing of Brian Boru, who was annoyed because the beast
    had made off with several of his fine white mares (not to mention
    their riders).  In parts of Connaught, I am told that the pooka
    is believed to be a fairy (de Danaan, sidhe, etc.) which once so
    angered its unhuman fellows that they cursed it to never again take
    "human" form.
    
    If you're interested, there are some good collections of tales,
    gathered with a tape recorder and faithfully printed, available
    in most bookstores.  By the way, quite a number of Irish and Scottish
    people take these tales quite seriously, and some even go looking
    for "scientific" explanations of "fairy" legends.
    

    I once had a cat that died by being hit by a car.  For several weeks,
    I would occasionally see her playing with her brother.  Poor little
    guy, she would get him to chase her, and then would disappear on
    him, to appear somewhere else.  A lot of times, he would appear
    to be playing with another cat that I couldn't see.  Then, after
    several weeks, she stopped being there.
    
    Elizabeth

    
    I once had a Schnauzer who would sit in a chair by the piano while
    I played the piano.  After his death, I saw him several times sitting
    in that chair when I was playing....
    
    Linda

    We've had alot of discussion in this notes files regarding the 
    'why of life' for humans.  What do you all think the 'why of life'
    is for animals?  For example, do you think they reincarnate to 
    learn life's lessons, etc.?
    
    Mary
    

    re.13
    gee, I hope they don't have to learn anything more because I feel
    that they are closer to nature than we are and that makes them
    complete in life's lessons. I hope they just go on from here
    being happy.
    

    
    
    (Help me out on this one, Carla!)
    
    
           Recently a friend showed me a most interesting book.
    One chapter is about animals, and explains that they are
    here also to learn lessons.  It also states that animals
    reincarnate along the same 'tree'...ie, felines will be
    domestic cats, tigers, snow leopards, etc.  I think my dog
    was a fox in one of her past lives, although I seem some
    behaviour reminiscent of a jackal also!!
    
                       Deb
    
     

    Re .15 (Deb):
    
    >One chapter is about animals, and explains that they are
    >here also to learn lessons.  It also states that animals
    >reincarnate along the same 'tree'...ie, felines will be
    >domestic cats, tigers, snow leopards, etc.
     
    That implies that in such a scheme, humans would reincarnate only as 
    humans, orang-utangs, chimpanzees, and gorillas (possibly gibbons).
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    	You can see their Soul when you look in their eyes, so I
    	too believe animals incarnate to learn lessons.  Or help
    	us with our lessons...  I've learned so much about love
    	(unconditional), both giving and receiving, from my dog
    	and know there's much more to learn from the puppy I'll
    	get later this year.
    
    	(Deb, did this help?  I haven't yet read the book you're 
    	referring to, what is it called?)
    
    						Carla
    

    
    
    Carla, it's the book you shared with Kak and I.  The Guide
    Book (I think)...I remember it mentioned humans as being
    'different' from the other apes.  That at one point we
    (all the great apes) were similar, but something changed
    in man, to help us learn faster (spiritually).  It's been
    a few months since I read the book....I do remember the
    "author" (this is a channelled book) said that if one looks
    closely at a dog or cat, hints of past incarnations will
    be there.  Well, I looked at Morgan and fox and jackel
    came to mind.  
    
    Deb
    
    

    	Deb, it's obviously been too long since I've read that
    	book!  Think I'll refresh my (feeble) memory over the
    	weekend!  =8*)
    
    						Carla
    

    
    It is my understanding that animals have lessons to learn and
    their own karmic cycle.  Yes, they re-incarnate.  Once they
    have learned these "animal" lessons, they will leave their animal
    consciousness and enter the human consciousness and karmic cycle.
    Their first human incarnation tends to be a very primitive one,
    such as a pygmy....
    
    To answer some questions in advance:
    
    No, Humans cannot incarnate into animals...
    
    No, Not all humans were originally animals...From my understanding,
    most of the "very old" souls that are around now were NOT previously
    animals.
    
    Linda

RE: .20

It's interesting to note the associations people make with 'primative'
cultures.  I have found in my reading that these 'primatives' seem
to be alot closer to higher levels on consciousness that we westerners
seem to be.  I think (if animal do re-incarnate and eventually move
into human forms) a good starting place to build up some good karmic lesson
material would be amoung the 'natives' of the big western cities, not amoung 
the pygmys or any other 'primative' culture...

Terry

                                               
    Re.20 (Linda W.)
    
    This is a bit of an aside, however....
    
    Linda - what do you mean by an 'old soul'? 
                    
    Cindy

    Re .22 (Cindy):
    
    >Linda - what do you mean by an 'old soul'? 
    
    ... you know, like "Old King Cole was a merry old soul." :-D
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
                                                             
    
    Just _can't_ resist that kind of a straight line ... sorry

    	Yes, Linda, I'm interested in your definition as well...
    
    						Carla
    

    
    Re .22 (Cindy)
    
    I mean by the term 'old soul', a soul that has had many, many, many
    life-times.
    
    Linda

    
    Re .21 (Terry)
    
    When I say primative, I basically mean "simplier".  Animals are
    very "simple".  They only have basic desires, yet they are very
    intelligent (highly-evolved animals in consciousness).  Animals
    do not have the complex "melodramas" that higher-evolved humans
    go through.  Pygmies, and other primative cultures, also do not
    have these complex "melodramas".  They are a simplier people.
    Therefore, to me, it would make sense for animals, which are simplier
    in nature, to start the human-consciousness evolution in a "simplier"
    human culture.  (sort of to "wet their feet" and give them a taste
    of what it is like to be human).  Try and imagine being a simple,
    animal consciousness that is thrown into a human physical form.
    I would imagine that it would be difficult transition in its own
    right to incarnate as a pygmy rather than a wall-street stock-broker.

    As an intense animal-lover, I sometimes think at times that my dog
    and cats are more highly evolved than a lot of people I know....

    Linda

    Re .26 (Linda):
    
    Rather than "melodrama," I'd term it "complex motivation."  Rather
    than "primitive," I'd call it "direct."
    
    My cats seem to have more than "basic desires," as shown when Merlin,
    for instance, decides he wants to watch television and rattles doors
    to motivate us.  The areas of _mutuual communication_ are rather
    simple, but that's something else.
    
    No matter: "primitive" peoples and animals have simple desires because
    in part their environments don't permit them the luxury of more
    complex desires.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    
    
    re.
    	.20
    		ouch! Simplier? why do we consider different sociological
    	stresses as simplier? (he doesn't have it as bad as me. ;-))
    	Yea, those Ethiopians have it alot simplier than us! and those
    	third world countries with their funny little dictators who
    	make people disappear like magic(K). THEY dont know what problems
    	are. Why..they just dont understand what it is like to have
    	to make car payments! they dont know true sorrow untill they
    	try to get turned down for a loan. Yea, those pygmys sure have
    	it easy.
    		IF I was evolving would I not most likely first try
    	out my abilities in a more chaotic society enabling me to test
    	my limits? (something like NY metro area?) and then as I became
    	more knowledgeable and found out what was important in life
    	would I not cut the SH*T out of my life leaving the things that
    	truly mattered? I imagin that as I got highly evolved I wouldnt
    	need the toys and amusements that the children play with. I
    	would settle down to a more ancient culture that has withstood
    	the tests of time. Not an apathetic and Lackadaisical existance
    	made of temporary things.
    
    
    	Craig (who doesnt know and doesnt care about apathy or ignorance!)
                       

From someone who wishes to remain anonymous.....

This is in response to note 730.

"Simpler" Cultures?

Many so-called "simpler" cultures have a spiritual development that is 
vastly more sophisticated than western culture.  Indeed, it 
appears that western culture may have sacrificed much of its 
spiritual development in its quest for material (creature? ;-)
comforts.

I would think that a life dedicated to physical survival (and I 
believe that the continuing spiral of a quest for more money, more 
things, more power over others, etc. that is so overwhelmingly 
demonstrated by western culture as a whole is simply the survival 
instinct, sublimated (mis-directed?) and grown out of control 
(cancerous?).

I, too, think that a more direct line of re-incarnation  
(spiritual evolution?) from the "animal state" (this is very confusing 
to me.  is not man also an animal?  where the distinction?) would be 
through the western cultures.  On the other hand, considering the 
moral outlook, love, or whatever it is that motivates, for 
example, a dolphin to rescue a drowning man, I'm not entirely 
sure whose development is superior.  (And man's response?  To 
train the dolphin to carry explosives, and ultimately, 
unwittingly, commit suicide in support of man's war).

By the way, I think that the (hopefully) growing trend toward spiritual 
growth in the West could be the turning of the tide--looking 
at the yin/yang balance through a time table, maybe we're due for 
a tremendous spurt of spiritual development.

Likewise, many Eastern cultures appear to be moving away from what 
was an overwhelmingly spiritual path toward greater materialism.

Coincidence? Or the yen/yang principle over geography?

The Mystery Macaroon

    With the possible exception of the Shakers (who fought/fight a
    continual battle to "simplify") I have never heard of a culture
    simpler than ours where that label stood up to close scrutiny.
    Scratch that, even the Shakers don't qualify since they are actually
    an "isolated subculture" and would not be viable without the
    trickle of interaction with the major culture (and I'm not just
    talking about the non-viability of a completely isolated culture
    which forbids all sexual intercourse).
    
    A perception of cultural simplicity is an indication of the labeler's
    ignorance, preconceptions or idealization rather than any indication
    of the state of the culture so labeled.
    
    No I'm not talking about "spiritual complexity" (whatever that is
    -- perhaps spiritual sophistication; sophistication and complexity
    cannot be equated, indeed, in many cases they are opposed) as such.
    I am talking about the complexity of life in general -- how much
    complexity must be dealt with to get through the average day.
    
    Some of that complexity will be taken up with meeting survival
    needs -- providing and preparing food, drink, shelter, and physical
    security.  Some will be taken up in social interaction.  Some
    will be taken up in ritual: social or religious, internal or
    external, private or public.
    
    I would speculate that each individual has their own personal
    complexity level -- a level of life complexity which is most
    satisfying to that person, either more or less being seen as
    uncomfortable (this is related to Toffler's concept of a "stability
    zone").  Furthermore, I speculate that the variance over healthy
    humans is small, except for a few exceptional "outliers".  Cultures
    therefore evolve to provide individuals with a level of complexity
    in keeping with the human average, though the kind of complexity may
    differ considerably.
    
    Individuals may frequently seek to shift the nature of the complexity
    in their lives, and communities may grow up to support this.  Some
    rare individuals may seek to increase or decrease the complexity
    in their lives beyond "normal" limits.  These may also find
    groups of like-minded individuals.
    
    The Nobel Savage concept is as patronizing and isolating as the
    Degenerate Savage concept which it was a counter-reaction to.  Let's
    leave them both in the 18th century and concentrate on what other
    cultures (whether or not they have the same kind of technological
    sophistication we do) have to teach us, rather than what we want
    them to be.
    
    					Topher

    Re .30 (Topher):
    
    >The Nobel Savage concept is as patronizing and isolating as the
    >Degenerate Savage concept which it was a counter-reaction to.
     
    No, the Nobel Savage is the savage who makes homegrown dynamite.
    ;-)
    
    Seriously, Topher's correct.  That's why I tried to use the word
    "direct" rather than "simpler" earlier.  The jungle tribesman in
    a hunter-gatherer society spends a _lot_ of his or her free time
    just "doing" life.  She or he can't go to the refrigerator for the
    next meal; therefore the society's organization is structured
    differently, resulting in different life priorities.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    What beliefs do the Wiccans have regarding animal souls?  Also,
    Frederick, does Lazerus have anything to say regarding the meaning
    of animals lifes here on earth?
    
    mary
    

    re: .32 (Mary)
      
        (Someone else has to respond to whatever Wiccans say...I have
    no solid answers...)
    
        Lazaris has very definite responses to the issue of animals
    and their relationships to us, but I'm afraid that my less-than-
    computer-type-memory is failing me with exact descriptions here.
    In 358.101 I wrote from workshop notes on minerals and plants and
    somehow left out animals believing I entered them somewhere else.
    I do not remember if, indeed, I entered them elsewhere or not, now.
    In any case, I will make an effort over the next few days to find
    more info. from notes and other friends of Lazaris to give to you
    here.   I do know that the spirit animal is extremely valuable to
    each of us (our own spirit animal, that is.)   What animals 
    "experience" (as lessons, etc.) is, I believe, the issue here, and
    I am less aware of this (I guess I haven't been too interested.)
    So, I will attempt to get back to this.
    
    Frederick
    

    I'll try to answer this.
                          
    Everything on this planet is a manfestation of Goddess. Animals have
    spirits and souls in the same way the human animal does. The human
    animal has a more developed soul/psyche. 
    
    Some think that sea mammals have highly developed psyches also.
    
    Generally what holds true for wo/mankind holds true for lower animals.
    This, of course, raises the hackles of non-vegits. It dosen't bother
    me even as a meat eater.  After all, some animals eat others.
                                        
    As a point of speculation, and speaking for myself, I could say that
    the hidden life cycle between physical death and rebirth is not
    conscious in the human, rational sense. A natural pattern of growth
    between lives seems to present itself, absent of a deitys nudging.