Conference hydra::dejavu

.0  Darrell

For Notes on Nostradamus see:

 36     NOSTRADAMUS, DO YOU BELIEVE IT?
112     Nostradamus' Predictions

For some Notes on Predictions in general:

339     Predictions
619     PROPHECIES OF DEJAVU NOTERS

or, how about;

659     Preparing For the Earth Changes?

Jay

    Re: .0

>>	I'm not so sure that it will be next week, but I beleive that it
>>will be sometime in 1988.  If the quake does not come in 1988, I will
>>disbeleive everything else Nastrademus has predicted for the future, 
>>and treat each occurrence of reality thereafter with what Nastrademus
>>predicted, to be pure coincidence.

	Nostradamus always said that his predictions were based on
    the current direction that the human race was on at the time of
    his predictions.  He always stressed that the PATH CAN BE CHANGED.
    If some of the predictions, such as the earthquake, do not occur
    at the time that he predicted, or at all, this could just mean that
    the human race had worked out that particular karma that would
    have caused us to experience the event as predicted.

    Linda

    If you are betting on May 9th or 10th (I heard 8th) then I predict
    you will be very quiet for a long time. {;-)  I have heard of people
    flying into New Endland from CA to be with their relatives over this 
    period.  I couldn't believe it.  (after all, they could have just 
    camped in their yards :-)
    
    Stan (who_can't_predict_that_the_sun_will_come_up_next_Tuesday)

    Hi Darrell -- welcome to DEJAVU.
    
    You seem to be setting up an unjustified dichotomy.  One can believe
    in the ability of human beings to be able to predict the future
    at times and yet doubt the ability of Nostradamus to do so.
    
    The problem is that Nostradamus couched his prophecies in symbolic
    and general terms.  Over the centuries various people have claimed to
    be able to unambigously "decode" his prophecies and have proven
    their interpretation by showing how it fit past history.  Unfortunately
    this is rather easy to do with the type of oracular, poetic statements
    which Nostradamus made.  The same verses have been applied to different
    historical events which seemed important to each interpreter.  When
    applying their decoding techniques to events which have not yet
    taken place their batting average is just about what you would expect
    for random guessing.
                     
    Personally -- I believe that people probably *can* tell the future
    sometimes.  I don't believe that Nostradamus could, or if he could
    then the key to understanding his predictions died with him.
    
    While it shows intellectual honesty to be willing to "bet" ones
    beliefs as you have done, you may be going overboard to equate
    the success or failure of some peoples interpretation of Nostradmus'
    predictions with your belief in the possibility of predictions in
    general (or at least your willingness to talk about the possibility).
    
    If the "big-one" doesn't occur this year (and you should have some
    idea in your mind as to what would unambiguously be interpretted
    as *the* quake being spoken of) then all that has been shown is
    that some people's interpretation of Nostradamus is wrong -- either
    because Nostradamus could not fortell the future or because they
    have interpreted him incorrectly.
    
    On the other hand if the "big-one" does occur this year, then you
    have to keep in mind that the people who have made those
    interpretations did so knowing that Calif. is due for some really
    big shocks.  Their interpretation of the place being spoken of
    being Calif. is based on that knowledge, as many of them will be
    the first to admit.  So at best, we would take this as only slight
    to moderate evidence that Nostradmus as interpreted was able to
    make conventionably unexplainable predictions.
    
    Anyway, the next 7 months will tell.  (I hope you are wrong, since
    my parents and one of my brothers live in LA).
    
    					Topher

	by coincidence, I wrote this letter a few hours ago, when 
someone asked me about the current California quake predictions;

=================================================================

	I hear that Nostrodomus (sp?) predicted the big California
shakeup for May of '88.   His quatrains were always pretty cryptic,
and I haven't looked at it myself, so I don't know how clear cut the
prediction was.   However, this May date was put out on some television
special on Mr N.   Now everybody's quoting it.

	I personally rely more on the Edgar Cayce predictions.   But
*he* refused to give precise dates, since mankind's free will could
alter the exact date.   (for instance by building dams or otherwise
altering water tables, earth movement can be directly affected.)
Edgar Cayce predicted a *warning sequence* to happen prior to the
big California event;

	1) Mt Vesuvius erupts in Italy.
	2) Mt Pele erupts on the island of Martinique.
	3) A quake under the indian ocean inundates India with tidal waves.
	4) Japan gets hit with *major* quake damage.
	5)  *Then* California.

	I tend to doubt the Nostradomus prediction, merely because the
Edgar Cayce 'warning sequence' hasn't begun yet.   Edgar Cayce put it
in fairly plain english, while Nostrodomus wrote cryptic poems that
are wide open to interpretation....

	Also interesting to note how San Francisco is having a drought
this year.   *This* is significant!   A dry water table will cause
pressure to build in faults.   A sudden rain could then set off the
big one.    Quakes tend to happen at the *end* of drought periods, but
I hear the SF utilities people are predicting drought for this year and
next.    I would say, now that a drought seems to be unde way, watch out 
for the next major wet period in California.

	quaking in my shoes?
	Alan.

    PS:   does anyone here have the text of this specific Nostrodomus 
          prediction?   I'd sure like to read it, and interpret the
          text for myself...

    As for California falling into the ocean and all that rot...
     
    B-B-B-B-L-L-L-L-L-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T-T!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    
    Frederick (who would rather create his own reality, thank you very
    much!)
    

    Darrell:
    
    The contents of your Note certainly stagger's the imagination when
    one seriously considers the magnitude on such an event.
                                                    
    I suppose as a result of my Vietnam experience, I became a "Fatalist"
    for a long while afterwards. I am not that way any longer. 
    
    One can never really know what tomorrow hold's . . . but one can
    know the one who hold's tomorrow in His hands, who orders the events
    and can suspend, alter and intervene in their amidst to effect change.
    
    What can anyone really do against something as horrific as a Quake
    of that magnitude, except to deposit ones faith in the Almighty and
    trust His Son's definite promises; one of which I would quote here,
    
               "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee"
                                     Hebrews 13:5.
    
    As a Combat Medic I can attest to the "Foxhole Conversion" of many
    of my Comrades when we prayed, staring death in the face and for
    some reason known only to God . . . we were spared.
    
    I place in His care the fate of millions and refuse to accept a
    spirit of fear regarding this. If anyone who has read these Replies
    and feels burdened . . . try prayer.
                                                          
    These "Wizards" that peep and "Spirits" that utter, seem to have
    multitudes of itching ears to whisper in to. Why consult such things
    without examining the greatest most mystical of all sources . .
    the Bible first or at least afterwards.
    
    There was "One" prophet above all others who explained the "Signs" that
    would occur at the end of the world, many of which are indeed
    manifesting themselves now in our generation. It is His plan from
    the beginning; so why not consult the author Himself:
    
              The Gospel According to Saint Matthew Chapter 24 
    
    Take a moment or two and read what Jesus said about the very same
    topic.
    
    Regards,
    
    Richard
    
    Richard
                                
    
    
    

    re: -.1
      
        What you describe will lead us quickly into the proverbial,
    time-revered rathole, however, let me state that the way in which
    you did it is not the best way possible in this conference.  You
    are not clearly stating your opinion and it very definitely sounds
    like proselytizing to me.  As we have pointed out many times before,
    the lovable Bible was written hundreds of years after Christ's death
    (to the extent that he lived at all) and the words given are not
    "Christ's", but author(s) unknown.  That you found solice with it
    is great, if you so wish to give testimony, but please refrain from
    the righteousness.  Thanks.
    
    Frederick
    

    
    
    Christ was most certainly not the only "Prophet" to walk the
    earth, and it distresses me that Christians refuse to recognize
    or respect the validity of other religions.
    
    We each walk our own path to the ultimate destination.
    
                 Deborah
    
    

re;  GIVE ME A BREAK!

no need to shout.

Some in DEJAVU are Christian, and others are not.  Even within the realm of 
Christianity, several differing perceptions of what is Christianity, exist.

This is a free forum; the purpose of which, to me, seems to be exploration of 
traditional and non-traditional spiritual beliefs; the trend seems to lead more 
toward metaphysics, which in and of itself includes Christian and non-Christian 
viewpoints.  Because this is a free forum, there are found many and varying 
ideas on how to best walk the Path to Highest Good.  This is a banquet; we can 
take what we like, and learn from it, and leave what does not appeal to us.  
Just because someone tries to force us to eat a certain food, does not mean 
that we must even put it on our plate.  (Leave it to me to associate anything 
with food!  Ms. Perpetual Appetite).  If someone appears to be forcing a 
viewpoint, or preaching, chances are, the mind is not ready to change or accept 
ideas outside of that viewpoint, although we are certainly welcome to present 
them (perhaps someone reading along with the differing views, can benefit from 
what we have to say).  The best we can do is respect each other's opinions, 
varied as they may be.  We have no way of totally involving ourselves in 
another's experiences; no way to truly know what will work for another, and 
what will not.  We must each decide that, for ourselves.

I heard on the radio this morning that there was an earthquake in Henderson, 
Nevada.  Five miles' worth of buildings were destroyed; one life was lost.  
People from outside of the 5-mile range heard it clearly.

    
    
    Meridith, that was an explosion, not an earthquake-at a space-shuttle
    fuel factory....
    
    Deb
    
    

    	This earthquake was not "natural" in origin, but was the result
    of a rocket fuel factory explosion outside Las Vegas, Nevada.  The
    facility held fuel for NASA's Space Shuttles, enough for five missions
    worth!  The tremors created by the explosion registered 3.5 on the
    Richter scale!
    
    	Larry
    

RE: last bunch.
    
    This is a conference dealing in large part with peoples opinions
    about spiritual and metaphysical matters.  Frequently those opinions
    are based on more or less organized religions.  We frequently get
    "preached at" about paganism, Wiccanism, various forms of spiritism,
    Buddhism, various "New Age Religions", etc.  Although too much of
    any one of these (or too much of all of these) would, I think, be
    destructive, I don't see we could remove this from the conference
    without destroying its spontanaity and "energy".  It is part and
    parcel of the whole.
    
    Those of us who are not Christians, however, tend to be very sensitive
    to Christian expressions of belief.  This is because we are members
    of minority belief systems, and also Christianity seems to encourage
    intolerance of other belief systems (which I definitely don't believe
    is a fault of Christianity as such -- from what I know of Christian
    teachings only a poor Christian (in that respect) is intollerant
    of others beliefs).
    
    Richard has only done what others, of other religious persuasions,
    has done in this conference without negative response or with polite
    disagreement.  Hopefully, the conference won't degenerate into a
    forum for people to tell the rest of us why we will go to Hell if
    we don't agree with them, but various Christian persepectives on
    matters being discussed does have a place.
    
Richard:
    
    I think you will find that you are less likely to get such a hostile
    response (and therefore receive a fairer hearing for your ideas)
    if you:
    
    	1) Keep in mind that your Christian beliefs are, to many of
    	   people in this conference, simply your opinion rather than
           absolute unquestioned truth -- however sure you are of the
    	   correctness of your beliefs.  Some "I believes" stuck in
      	   will take much of the tone of "Since I KNOW that God has
    	   said this there is nothing more to say and anyone who disagrees
    	   is worse than stupid".  I know that is not how you *meant*
    	   to sound, but that's a bit how it came across.
    
    	2) Keep in mind that when you criticize and belittle people
    	   who believe other than the way you do, or imply such
    	   belittlement (e.g., "multitudes of itching ears to whisper
    	   in to.") that you are insulting the people who you are trying
    	   to reach with your ideas -- not a good way to get them to
    	   listen.
    
    	3) Keep in mind that all the non-Christians, ex-Christians,
    	   and alternative-Christians in this conference have had Christian
    	   ideas preached at them literaly ad nausium.  They have heard
    	   the "basic" message over and over again.  We are interested
    	   in your opinions -- which come from a Christian perspective
    	   -- when the give us a new perspective on something roughly
    	   related to the topic at hand.  Telling us, for example, that
    	   you believe that prayer (presumably only Christian prayer)
    	   is answered is not interesting, and will invoke hostility,
    	   *unless* the discussion is about the power of prayer.
    
    	4) I suspect you'll be listened to better if you only bring
    	   up your religious beliefs occasionally -- otherwise you risk
    	   people saying "Oh that's just Richard saying the same thing
    	   he says on every topic, I'll just go to the next note.".
    
    					Topher

re; < Note 726.13 by CSC32::WOLBACH >

    that was an explosion, at a space-shuttle
    fuel factory....

I stand corrected.  I was driving at the time, making that left turn from Mark 
Dabling onto Rockrimmon...you get the picture...the word "earthquake" was used.

Does anyone have a napkin for this here egg on my face?

;-)

    Re .16 (Meredith):
    
    Well, before you look for an egg to wipe, you didn't say it was
    a _natural_ earthquake, did you? :-)
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    RE: 726.15 PBSVAX::COOPER
    
    	I do believe you posted this note in the wrong place!  I don't
    see what this topic has to do with California Quakes!
    
    

>re; < Note 726.18 by NEXUS::ENTLER >
>                    -< Is this posted in the wrong place? >-

>    	I do believe you posted this note in the wrong place!  I don't
>    see what this topic has to do with California Quakes!

We refer to this as a "rathole"  in NOTES.  I refer to it as a "tangent".  
Someone refers to something while responding to a topic, and that something 
evolves into a rathole/tangent, and the conversation deviates.

Steve - Thanks for the napkin ;-) .

The explosion produced an earthquake.  I wonder, if those California quakes 
happen, if we will be the ones to initiate them on a physical level, with or 
without the other implications noted earlier.

Participator_in_Certain_Deviations,_but_Now_Trying_to_Get_Back_On_Track

(Wow, that almost sounds religious, huh? :-))

    
    	All religous views aside, I'm glad I entered the base note in
    this conference.  The replies have certainly given me a better 
    outlook on how I should interpret Nastrademus' predictions, and
    take into consideration that his predictions have yet again been
    interpreted into today's English by other people.  So I can see
    how the interpretation of the prediction today may in fact be
    somewhat distorted.
    
    	As a previous noter suggested, Nastrademus said that all his
    predictions did not have to become reality, because if man could
    work out the *karma* of the time, then he could subsequently 
    eliminate the prediction.  My question to this is; if this is really
    true, then first of all, what is the Karma that he's talking about
    and secondly, how can man work out the Karma to successfully eliminate
    the prediction ?
    
    RE: .4 
    
    	Thanks for you reply in particular.  It sure made stop and think.
    I really hope I'm wrong too !  I was trying to think of what magnitude
    of past historical significance I could possibly equate this predicted
    earthquake to, and only one came to mind...Atlantis.
    
    					Darrell
    

    Re .20 (Darrell):
    
    >I really hope I'm wrong too !  I was trying to think of what magnitude
    >of past historical significance I could possibly equate this predicted
    >earthquake to, and only one came to mind...Atlantis.
     
    The Atlantis story is not that simple.  See note 154 ("An Icy Grave
    for Atlantis).
    
    Re subject:
    
    The "California sliding into the sea" theme has also popped up in
    the DIGITAL conference, too.
    
    Synchronosity? :-)
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    	It's spelled Nostradamus.
    
    	Larry
    

    re .20  
    
    It seems to me that if one finds oneself experiencing the
    same kind of pain or discomfort over and over again, there must
    be a reason.  It seems that it means that the individual has
    not learned to either deal with or avoid that type of situation.
    If one's belief system incorporates reincarnation and karma,
    the recurrence of uncomfortable situations could be construed
    as evidence of one's karma.
    
    Similarly, on a more cosmic scale, if one's belief system
    incorporates reincarnation and karma, the fact that humanity
    continues to fight war and experience greed and hate, could be
    construed as evidence that a lot of us still have many lessons to
    learn.
    
    I don't think there is any way to _know_ what one's karma is;
    you just take life as it comes, act in the ways that you feel
    are most desireable, and grow as much as you can in the directions 
    you think are appropriate.
    
    	bruce

    I had received some mail offline about my response in reply .10.
    It was pointed out that I should read note 1.2.
    
    Eventhough I have not changed my mind about what I said, I went
    ahead and set my reply (.10) SET HIDDEN.  

        
    RE: What we start with each time around....
    
    I heard or read this somewhere (hope it's not here! (;^), that it
    all works like a bridge game.
    
           You play the hand you are dealt.
    
    Cindy

    I'm new to DEJAVU too.  I've read some of Nostradamus and feel alot
    can be interpreted in different ways, *but* how do you account for
    his naming of Hitler in Greater Germanie (Histler) and Napoleaon
    in France?  Luck?
    
    Terry

    RE:  726.5
    
    I don't have the text in front of me, but one of the translations from the
    original French text indicated May of '88.  The dates around the 8th
    of May in 1988 come from astrological references in the verse that have been
    interpreted as such.
    
    Terry
    
    

    re .25
    
    
    According to one note in another conference, Hister is the latin
    word for Danube. Also, in another quatrain, Nostradamus refers to
    'Hister' as having a bridge over it, so he apparently is talking
    about the Danube river, not Adolf Hitler.
    
    I think if you read his quatrains, you'll find that he is _very_
    ambiguous. It sort of reminds me of reading Revelation, in that
    it is extremely difficult to wade through the symbolism and get
    to the real message. In addition, (if his will make you feel any
    better), according to 'The Man Who Saw Tomorrow' (the TV documentary
    on Nostradamus), he predicted that the third brother will 'equal
    his other brother in government' in 1984. If you buy the interpretation
    that he was speaking of the Kennedys, then obviously this has not
    come to pass, since Ted has not equalled Bobby (Attorney General),
    or Jack (President).
    
    
    Pat...  who doesn't believe everything he hears.
              

    re: karma
      
         I offer note 358.100 for a reasonable, capsulized expla-
    nation of karma.  I think too many people make too much out of it
    (as with so many other things.)
      
         One other point:  this is the New Age.  Nostradamus was of
    the Old Age.  He was unable to predict in the New Age because it
    is a time when people are consciously creating their realities and
    are therefore not readily subject to predictions (especially from
    others.)  In the Old Age, this was not the case and since everything
    was subject to the consensus collective unconscious, predictions
    were much more easily made with reliability. 
    
    
    Frederick
    
    

    Well I live in Hayward Califorina and if I am around on monday I
    will let you know. 
                      Donna <:)

    
    Hi I am new to DEJAVU but I have read this conference once a while
    for over a year now.
    
    Perhaps one of you have seen the James Bond (007) movies, I forget
    the name of movie, it was about his mission to Hayward California
    to rescue somethings during the massive of quaking was result of
    fuel factory explosion from somewhere in Nevada ( if my memory serves
    me correct). Wonder if this movie was just coincidence that was
    writing by Ian Fleming, the author of James Bond or Did he read
    Nostradamus before he wrote his story in order to give us a signal?
    
    Well Hayward is one of the greater qauke faults in California...
    I will let you know if I am around on Monday like Donna said a while
    ago.
    
    0!0
    \-/  Kevin
    
    

    re: 726.28
    
    I agree, there is much ambiguity in Nostradamus' verse.  Ofner the
    interpretations have named people where clearly he was refering
    to geographic locations, but so do alot of alegories.  It's not
    that I believe everything I read, but there's just too much of this
    to ignore and it crosses many different cultures and thousands of
    years, many of which point to the latter part of the 20th century.
    Have you read any of the recent translations of the Myan writings?
    
    Anyway, if these predictions don't come to pass as they have been
    interpreted, then for me, it affirms the fact that we do create
    our own realities and can change the course of things and that 
    through awareness and communication (such as this notes conference)
    we will have impacted this new age in a very positive way.
    
    Peace and harmony ... - you'll see it when you believe it.
    
    Terry

    I very much hope that all my DEJAVUE Friends in California have
    a wonderful, exciting, funfilled, relaxing weekend. I feel very
    sure that you will be around on Monday to participate in this
    conference once again.
    
    Enjoy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    -Arthur 

RE: 726.33

Count me in too!  I think plenty of positive, loving thoughts directed
towards our west coast friends are in order, particularily over the next 
several days.  Whether or not you go along with all of the prophetic
statements, it certainly couldn't hurt! 

Terry

    HIP HIP HORAY AND GOOD KARMA TO ALL OF THE LAST FIVE REPLIES!!!!
    

    If there is a major earthquake in sunny CA this weekend or even
    this year, I'll bark like a dog.
    
    
    John M.

    Well.......since I live in California (on the 'wrong side' of just
    about every fault there is), I'm not about to take on your challenge.
    
    
    But if I were....for how long would you bark like a dog? ;-)
               
    Jill                      

    
    More seriously, thanks for all the good wishes.
    
    We live only about 5 miles from the ocean so if anything *really*
    drastic happens, I'll be one of the first ones there.
    
    I'm not too concerned; I'm just looking forward to having a quiet
    weekend at home enjoying all the redwood trees.
    
    Everyone have a good weekend,
    
    Jill
    
    

    It's Friday, 5:15P. M. EDT. I am about to leave work for the weekend.
    I just want you people on the West coast to know that my thoughts,
    prayers, and any mindforce that I can muster up will be directed
    towards you this weekend. Hopefully there will not be any quake
    in any area this month or any time soon.
    
    
    
    
                              Goddess bless you all
                              
                               Phil
                               

Has anyone checked to see what fish and other wildlife are doing?  I hear that 
fish are the first to detect things like quakes.

    I agree with this mode of approaching the question. Forget Nostradamus
    and do a little geomancy.

    	It's now Monday morning, May 9.  I assume California is still
    in one unshaken piece?
    
    	Larry
         

    Re .42 (Larry):
    
    It _never_ was in one unshaken piece. :-)
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    
    I was worried we'd lose Frederick.  Whatever would we do then?
    
    Um.....Frederick, are you still with us or are you out there on 
    a surfboard catching the big ones in the aftermath?
               
    (;^)

    
    Don't assume that it's over yet !  Just because the quake didn't
    come yet, doesn't necessarily mean that California is out of danger!
    
    Remember, someone else mentioned May 8.  I saw on the news that it
    is supposed to be May 9th or 10th.  Even if these dates don't bring
    anything, I personally am not going to California this year !  If
    the quake doesn't happen this year , then I'll hang up my hat on
    predictions. 
    
    						Darrell
    

    Well were still here .
    
    We have had strange weather , it rained all day friday and saturday
    (in Tahoe it snowed) but sunday the sun just shined (I got a sunburn)
    but no earthquake.... I was speaking with some other friends who
    said it is suposed to happen the 9th..wish us all luck
    
                  Donna

    If there were going to be a big earthquake, I would have dreamed
    about it.
    
    There will be no catastrophic earthquake in California this year.
    If there is, I'll send $10.00 to Concept:Synergy.
    
    John M.

 I think that if there was going to be a big earthquake I would also
    feel it in some way or another and I have not.
    
    Donna

       It's really quite interesting to see how people line up behind
    incredible predictions.  Even within the past year we've seen some
    really outlandish ones, e.g. around the Harmonic Convergence, comets,
    financial ruins, and on and on to the present.  I'm not sure what
    to make of it all except perhaps to notice that most of these 
    (especially the doom and gloom predictions) continue unabated. 
    As soon as one fails to materialize, someone dreams up another one.
    These always seem to be of the "REPENT!" variety or perhaps the
    "We'll all be saved!" type, which of course assume guilt, "sin",
    evil, wrong-doing, punishment, etc. etc.  
        Have I seen alternatives?  Yes.  Most of you have, too, even
    if only from me (indirectly, perhaps) or possibly from other 
    places.  Yet "we" apparently get our kicks out of this stuff...in
    any case, we seem to enjoy the "show."  This is the stuff for 
    popcorn and candy.  The "real stuff" must be too dull.
    
    
    Frederick
    

    
    RE:49
    > "The "real stuff" must be too dull."
    
    or perhaps...the "real stuff" seems too outlandish to believe?
    
    craig

VNS MAIN NEWS:                            [Richard De Morgan, Chief Editor, VNS]
==============                            [Basingstoke, England                ]

    US News
    -------

    Donald Regan says "he was made a victim" and defends astrological
    revelations about Nancy and Ronald Reagan; but there has also been 
    some sort of panic over a prediction of a major earthquake in the LA 
    area:  According to some sources, this was predicted by Nostradamus.

  <><><><><><><>   VNS Edition : 1567     Tuesday 10-May-1988   <><><><><><><>

    
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                 * *   **   **  *
                **  *** ** ** ****
                  ** ** ** **
                    ** *** **
                     *****
                     / /
                    / /
                   / /
                  / / 
                 / /
                / /
               / /
             \\|||//
    
                           
                              
    
    
    
                                          **
                                     **   ******
                                  ** **** ***  **
                ---------------- --   *** ** ****  **
               // _________________ *** *** ** *** *
              /  /                   ** ** ** ****
              |  |                     ** ** * * *
              |  |                      ** ** *
             \\||//             ** ..*     **  ..** ..*
    
             
    
    
    
    
    GEEEE!!!    That REDWOOD felt like a quake measuring about 7.0!
    

	I still have some oceanfront property left in Nevada still
	reasonable.

    
    
    Some other thoughts....
    
    The Nostradamus prediction does not specify a particular location
    other than for the New City.  Based on other predictions he made
    translators have come to the conclusion that "New City" means
    North America.  I think people are coming to the conclusion that
    it will be in California.  Astrologically, his prediction mentions
    Saturn being in Capricorn, and Jupiter and Mercury being in Taurus.
    They were.  He also mentioned Venus and Mars but I could not verify
    that there placement currently is the same as he stated.  An 
    interesting thing, however, is that Uranus (and Neptune) are in
    Capricorn also.  When Nostradamus was alive, these planets had not
    been discovered yet.  The chart for the great San Francisco earthquake
    had Uranus in Capricorn, which symbolically talks of a shattering
    of structures of all kinds - individual psyches, social structures,
    and perhaps physical structures as well.  And Uranian energy is
    always expressed suddenly and unexpectedly.  I, for one, am glad
    to see that we are passed the date and nothing physically has happened.
    However, it's interesting to see all the unexpected developments
    and disclosures about our government and elected officials,
    especially since Uranus rules astrology....:-)
    
    Carole

    RE: .54
    
    > Uranus rules astrology.
      
    
    This would make a great bumper sticker for astrology bashers.
                             
    John m.

    
    
    RE: .55
    
    John,
    
    You make me laugh even when I don't want to!
    
    C. :-)
    

    
Type EXT TT










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) @


Oh, my gosh!  Maybe Nostradamus was write after awl!
What does this blast from the past mean?

Frederick

    re: -.1
      
        We can all "thank" Mikki (Meredith East) for that one!
      
     
    
    
         To straighten things back out, either call on Superman or
    enter SET TERM/INQUIRE  (while exited from NOTES.)
    
    Frederick
    

 THANKS ALOT FREDERICK...
     DONNA  <: )

    
    I am pretty sure you wondered whether if the prediction of Nostradamus
    was succeed. Well he has. But it was not as big as he thought. There
    was about 50 miles south of our site (Santa Clara) had minor
    earthquake. The measure was only 3.0 so it was a big deal! I think
    Nostradmaus needed to figure it out again if he is alive.
    
    Kevin
    

    re: .57
    
    Ummm...excuse me...can someone tell me what was SUPPOSED
    to happen when one typed EXT TT in .57? All I got was 
    a bunch of strange looking characters instead of letters...
    Also, if it can't be fixed, do you think it should be removed?
    
    Of course, if I am missing something fundamental, here, and what
    I got was exactly what I was supposed to get...can anyone explain
    it to me? 
    
    -Amy.
    

     Re: .60 - the minor earthquake
    
    I think that's really interesting because I know of a lot of
    "new-agers" that have spent a lot of time sending light to the
    San-Andreas Fault for many, many years and I think that possible
    the big quake has been delayed (i.e. maybe we have changed the
    karmic path a bit....).  I really think that that quake was suppose
    to be the "big one".  Personally, I think the big quake will happen
    in '89.
    
    As Nostradamus has said, we can change the current path....
    
    Linda

    	Kind of like faith can move mountains?
    
    	Larry
    

    Amy, maybe you should do SAVE TT. and do TYPE TT. when you exit
    notes.   And hope there isn't a turkey in it....  :-)
    
    							Don

    Don,
    
    Thanks for the suggestion...however, I tried it and the results
    were the same.
    
    I still ended up with the foreign looking stuff. Maybe you could
    just tell me what wonderful thing I am supposed to get and I'll
    just imagine it... ;-)
    
    -Amy.

    re: -1
    
    Never mind. I've got it.
    
    -A.
    

    re .58
    To clear the screen just hit cntrl w and you will have a normal
    display of the note.
    
    Steve

    After my flippant reply in .3 I wanted to get back here and put
    something useful in this note.  I finally got around to it.  One
    of the reasons that this may not be a good year for a major quake
    in CA is they have experienced a couple Richter 6+ quakes in the
    last year.  All this shaking may have reduced the tension along
    the faults making a quake less probable.
    
    What would be quake of proportions of that predicted by Nostradamus?
    (given he is taking about CA)  It would have to be one equivalent
    to the 1906 San Francisco quake.  It has been estimated that that
    quake would have measured about 8.2 on the Richter scale.  This
    is pretty big.  Remember, the Richter scale is a log scale.  That
    means each number means there is 10 times the energy in the quake.
    Therefore, a quake of magnitude 8 has 100 time more energy that
    a quake of magnitude 6!  That's a "whole lotta shakin' goin' on".
    
    I have attached a note I entered in the Real Estate notes file.
    A chap in CA wanted to know if he had to repay his mortgage if a
    quake destroyed his house.  The discussion degenerated a little
    and I entered this note about natural phenomena some may find
    interesting.

===============================================================================
HPSVAX::SHURSKY "May you live in interesting times." 42 lines   9-OCT-1987 09:15

                       -< Natural Phenomena Lesson 1.01 >-

    re: .5
    
    Elaine,
    
    You are fooling with statistics.  A '100 year flood' happens 
    on_the_average every 100 years.  That means that a '100 year flood' 
    can happen 2 years in a row and then not for 200 years.  It is all 
    averages.  Plus, how good do you think their guess of a '100 year 
    flood' is if they have less than 200 years of data?  Not what you 
    would call a sufficient data set.  Makes me think, how about you?  
    We just went through a '50 year flood' in the Merrimack valley last 
    spring.  Think we are due for another one next spring?  Naw, not in 
    my lifetime.
    
    Bye the bye, for you students of natural phenomena, the reason we
    had a '50 year flood' in the Merrimack valley this year was probably
    attributable to the 'El Nino' in the Pacific Ocean.  'El Nino' is
    a warming of the Pacific around the equator that plays h*ll with
    our weather.  New England usually has nice dry summers during El
    Nino periods.  It was nice wasn't it.  The last El Nino (1982-83)
    was when Malibu nearly washed into the Pacific.  I think this El
    Nino is about spent, though it was still holding on at last report.
    If it makes it through Christmas, it will be a very long one and
    we will have another year of interesting weather.  If not it will
    be pretty boring until 1990-91 when the next one is due.
    
    re: .6
    
    They just want to wait until the aftershocks die down.  If they
    took all the applicants after the recent earthquake, they couldn't
    afford to compensate everyone if there was another 6+ earthquake
    next week.  Earthquakes are kinda like that.  The probability of
    second major one decays rapidly after a major one and then increases
    over time until there is another major one.  Wait a year and you will 
    be able to get the insurance.  Only by then you will probably have 
    forgotten about it.  I think insurance companies depend on complacency.
    
    When was the last 'big one'?  1906.  I think they put that as a
    '100 year earthquake'.  Let's see 1987-1906=81.  Hmmm, maybe in
    our lifetimes.  Get your insurance before the 'big one'.
    
    Stan

===============================================================================
    
    By the way, the 'El Nino' has passed.  Next one is due in 3-4 years.

    re: .68

    Here in Atlanta we're near a major fault line, the New Madrid. 
    It's been 170 years or so since it's last 'slip'.  Anyway, I
    thought I would call my insurance agent and ask about by homeowners
    insurance.  It is not required and, therefore, not automatically
    a part of the policy.  Here it is a $174 rider.  In the conversation
    he told me that out there (Calif) earthquake protection is required  
    and ... that if there were a *major* quake Allstate and State Farm
    would chapter 11.  In fact, he tells me that it is part of their
    business plan since they couldn't possibly pay the claims.  Thousands
    of people would be SOL, they would file chapter 11 then reorganize
    not having to pay all the claims (just creditors).  Either I'm
    missing alot or something is wrong...

    Anybody have any comments/corrections?

    Terry

    	And just to cheer up everyone else's day in New England, Boston
    is in a major earthquake zone, but fortunately earthquakes are much
    less common in these here parts.
    
    	Larry
    

    re: .69
    
    I've been a homeowner in California for many years now and earthquake
    insurance is not mandatory.  You may purchase it if you wish and
    pay the additional rider.  Flood insurance is one that we have
    purchased (as a rider) because we are in a flood plain.
    
    So I guess I'm betting that the house will be washed away before
    it will be shaken from its moorings!!  ;-)
    
    Jill
    

    re: .70
    
    Boston is an interesting case (geologically speaking).  The Charles
    Basin is all Boston blue clay.  If there is ever a major quake it
    is literally going to shake like a "bowl full of jelly".  Boston
    would be a goner.  Realizing this I believe they have upped the
    structural requirements for building in Beantown.
    
    Stan

    re .72 (Stan):
    
    >Boston is an interesting case (geologically speaking).  The Charles
    >Basin is all Boston blue clay.  ...
     
    Isn't blue clay where one can find diamonds?  [And I don't mean
    at Fenway Park. :-)]
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

RE: .72 (Stan)
    
    Oh, its worse than that!  The marine clays underneath "Back Bay"
    undergo a process called "liquification" during quakes.  Yup, its
    just what it sounds like.  I have always had this mental picture
    of "The Pru" suddenly sinking straight down about 15 or 20 stories
    during a quake -- as if a trap door had opened under it.
    
    A map of earthquake risk put out a few years ago by someone like the
    American Geological Society had Southern California and Boston both
    marked the same: Black; highest risk, >80% probability of 8.0 or
    higher before the year 2000.  Of course Eastern quakes have
    historically been more destructive (intrinsically, we're not talking
    building codes here) than Western ones.  (Actually, I'm not sure
    about the 80%, it may have been higher).
    
    						Topher

RE: Boston Quake
    
    For you Nostradamus buffs -- I just remembered that the original
    name for Cambridge, Mass. was "New Towne".
    
    			        Topher

    re .75 (Topher):
    
    And the other name for Boston is "Bean Town."  Does this meran that
    any earthquake will stop its actionm at the Charles River? :-)
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    I understand that Nostradumus was considered the "Heraldo Rivera"
    of his time!
    
    
    Bob

    	I'm not sure who I should be worried about anymore.  In my base
    	note, I figured it would be California that would get the quake,
    	now I'm not so sure.  Maybe they are still in for the "big one".
    
    	While it was relatively small, My area, Ottawa Ontario Canada,
    	had an earthquake on early Sunday morning (about 2:00 AM). 
    	The earthquake measured 3.2 on the Richter and thankfully didn't
    	cause any damage or claim any lives.
    
    	How's everyone else ?
    
    	Darrell
    

    	Earthquakes occur all over the world all the time in varying
    degrees of intensity, so I would be cautious about calling any
    earthquake that appears around this time the one that Nostradamus
    "predicted", especially a weak one.
    
    	BTW, part of Nostradamus' earthquake prediction said that the
    planets would be aligned when the quake happened.  Well, they are
    not in a straight line in their orbits from the Sun at this time, nor 
    would they affect Earth in any way even if they were, as their
    combined mass is far too weak to affect our planet.  Remember the 
    "Jupiter Effect" in 1982?  Earth is still here.
                     
    	Larry
    

    RE: .79
    
    Larry,
    
    The planets were not supposed to be "aligned" per se.  The 
    quatrain mentioned the position of particular planets in
    particular signs, i.e. Saturn in Capricorn.
    
    Carole
    

    	But I *did* read that they were supposed to be aligned; in fact,
    I have read nothing but one conflicting interpretation of Nostradamus'
    predictions after another.  I am starting to think that his prediction
    has been purposely made obscure so that any big earthquake which comes
    along between now and the next century will be labeled as the one
    which Nostradamus supposedly predicted.
    
        And just to top it off, even if it is only a few planets which
    are supposed to be aligned, they will have even *less* effect on
    Earth than all of the planets together, which is already nil.
    
    	Larry
    

If there's some doubt about the 'New City', there must also be wiggle-
room for 'earthquake'.

There were a couple international incidents which might apply.  On the
eighth(?), there was a car-bombing near the Israeli Embassy in Nicosia,
Cyprus.  On the tenth, Iraq bombed an Iranian oil platform and several
tankers.  Yet-another-siege at the Sikh's Golden Temple in India began
a week or so ago.  None of these qualify as world-shakers, but all are
ripe for some seriously messy retaliation.

Prophesy can be useful even if it doesn't work.  If trepidation leading
up to last falls' Harmonic Convergence had cause someone to bail out
of DEC stock, they could have missed all the fun since October.

    	Once again Nostradamus' words get twisted to fit the facts -
    and now you imply that it isn't even an earthquake he was talking
    about!  
    
    	Would one of you "interpreters" kindly make up your minds?
    
    	Larry
    

    re: .79
    
    Larry:
    
    	In my note of .78, I wasn't suggesting that the small quake
    that we had here was in any way the same one that Nostradamus 
    predicted.  If you read it again, I'm sure you'll see that I said
    that I believe that maybe California is still in for the "big one".
    
    	It might of course be somewhere else, since Nostradamus said
    it would occur in the "New City".  Well, as other noters have pointed
    out, "New City" could really mean almost anywhere.  I think that
    a quake in 1988 of a magnitude of 8.0 to 10.0, and massive destruction
    of property and loss of human life could qualify easily as the quake
    Nostradamus has predicted.  I (as well as many others), have selected
    California since scientific logic shows us that this is the the
    most probable area for the "big one" to occur.
    
    	And, just to set the record straight, I as an "interpreter"
    of Nostradamus' prediction, still believe that it *IS* an earthquake
    that he's talking about.  To expand on that, I believe that it will
    be an earthquake so forceful, that it will be the biggest natural
    disaster ever known in the history of man.
    
    Darrell

re .84

Well, figure it out for yourselves;  here is the French text along with
one authors translation (no interpretation).  I've included all that I
could find that references either an apparent earthquake or the New City.

These are quotes from the book, "The Prophecies of Nostradamus" by
Erika Cheetham (the Putnam Publishing Group) without permission from
the author (so don't sell them).  The numbers refer to the century and
quatrain (in total there are ten centuries with 100 quatrains each).

Terry

-----------------

I.87   

Ennosigee feu du centre de terre.     Earthshaking fire from the center of the
Fera trembler au tour de cit�.        earth will cause tremors around the New
   neufue:                            City.  Two great rocks will war for a 
Deux grands rochiers long temps       long time, then Arethusa will redden a 
   feront la guerre,                  new river.
Puis Arethuse rougira nouveau
   fleuve.
       
VI.97

Cinq & quarante degr�s ciel           The sky will burn at fourty-five degrees,
   bruslera,                          fire approaches the great New City.  
Feu approcher de la grande cit�       Immediately a huge, scattered flame leaps
   neufue,                            up when they want to have proof of the
Instant grande flamme esparse         Normans.
   sautera,
Quand on voudra des Normans faire
   preuve.

IX.83

Sol vingt de Taurus si fort terre     The sun in twenty degrees of Taurus, 
   trembler.                          there will be a great earthquake; the
Le grande theatre rempli ruinera,     great theatre full up will be runied.
L'air ciel & terre obscurcir &        Darkness and trouble in the air, on 
   troubler                           sky and land, when the infidel calls
Lors l'infidelle Dieu & sainctz       upon God and the Saints.
   voguera.

IX.92

Le roi vouldra dans cit� neuf entrer  The king will want to enter the new
Par ennemis expugner lon viendra      city, they come to subdue it through
Captif libere faulx dire & per-       it's enemies; a captive falsely freed
   petrer                             to speak and act; the king to be
Roi dehors estre, loin d'ennemis      outside, he will stay far from the
  tiendra.                            enemy.

X.49

Jardin du monde au pres du cit�       Garden of the world near the New City,
   nuefue,                            in the road of the hollow mountains.
Dans le chemin des montaignes         It will be seized and plunged in the
   cavees,                            tank, forced to drink water poisoned
Sera saiai & plong� dans la Cuve,     with sulpher.
Beuvant par force eaux soulfre
   envenimees.

X.67

Le tremblement si fort au nois de     A very great trembling in the month of
   Mai,                               May, Saturn in capricorn.  Jupiter and
Saturne, Caper, Jupiter, Mercure      Mercury in Taurus.  Venus also in Cancer,
   au buef:                           Mars in Virgo, then hail will fall 
Venus aussi Cancer, Mars en           greater than an egg.
   Nonnay,
Tombera gresse lors plus grosse
   qu'un euf.

    I suppose if you called the continental plates "great rocks" it
    would help the fit.
    
    What was the interpretation of the "theater" and the "hollow mountains"?
                                                           
    What were the time frames again?  (From ____ to ____)?
    
    							Don

    
    
    Oh, no, I moved to Colorado to escape the earthquakes
    in California!  Could they have followed me?  :-)
    
    re: X.49  "Garden of the world"-we have a beautiful area
    of red rocks called "Garden of the Gods" -located near
    Old Colorado City, which is surrounded by Colorado Springs
    ("near the 'New City'-a reference to CS as the 'new' city?)
    and in the shadow of-gulp-Cheyenne Mountain-a hollow mountain,
    home of NORAD...the closest 'theater' is Red Rocks, a natural
    amphitheater about 100 miles to the north (correct me on my
    distances/direction, fellow Coloradans, if I am wrong)...
    
                    Deb
    
    

   re .86

    > What was the interpretation of the "theater" and the "hollow mountains"?

      Maybe "theater" is where L.A. (Hollywood) comes from and "hollow
      mountains" - maybe skyscrapers???
                                                           
      The dates, as you can see from the text, are astrological and have been
      interpreted to be the May of 1988.  

      Anyway, it's hard to get very specific from these references.  Somehow
      I think they do point to this time (late 20th century) and are
      important, but I'm not sure how it will all manifest.

      Terry

    Or switzerland where the entire population is provided with shelters
    bored into the mountains.
    I wouldent want to be in Red rocks in an earthquake something tells
    me those two large slabs of rock on either side of the theater might
    tend to want to level out again. BTW-They were tipped up by an earth
    quake many thousands of years ago.
    Hummmm...colorado springs is a 'new' city if you consider the 1st
    CS was Old Colorado City......
    Naw I'm not gonna worry about it.
    

    re: .89 (Jerry)
    
    >>	Or switzerland where the entire population is provided with
    >>	shelters bored into mountains.
    
    	This isn't quite true.  There are several now-closed mountain
    	tunnels which were converted to emergency shelters not too long
    	ago, having the potential to hold a total of 500,000 residents 
    	(valid Swiss passport required for entry).  Switzerland may be
    	small, but its population far outnumbers half a million.
    
    						Carla
    

    Re .91 (Carole):
    
    Whassa matta?  Quake gotcher tongue? :-)
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    
    
    Well, I think I'll give this another try.....
    
    Regarding the quatrains and astrological references - the planetary
    positions mentioned in the last quatrain quoted a few replies back
    were: Saturn in Capricorn, Jupiter and Mercury in Taurus, Venus
    in Cancer and Mars in Virgo.  As of today, the planetary positions
    are as follows: Saturn in Capricorn, Jupiter in Taurus, Mercury
    in Gemini, Venus in Cancer and Mars in Aquarius.  It is also
    important to note that these are "zodiacal" placements, not
    "constellation" placements - which do vary somewhat.  
    
    Carole
    
    P.S.  I don't know what went wrong with my last attempt to enter
          a reply.  Maybe there's a ghost in the machine? :-)
    

    re .93 

    So when are the placements quoted going to take place?  Anytime
    soon?  I thought that was what the 8th thru the 10th of May was
    all about.

    Why couldn't Nostradamus just tell us the date!!!!! He had a
    Gregorian calendar too!!!  :^(

    Terry
  

    	And what is Arethusa and what do the Normans have to do with
    all this?
    
    	Larry
    

  re .95 

    > 	And what is Arethusa ...    

        Arethusa was a Greek nymph who changed herself into a stream.    

        The book referenced interprets this as -

        "Ingenious commentators interpret Arethusa as coming from Ares,
        God of War, and U.S.A.  The new river is presumably blood..."

       and references X.49

   Terry

    RE: .95
    
    > Arethusa was a Greek nymph who changed herself into a stream.
    
    
    Guess she wanted to go with the flow.
    
    John M.  ;-)

    RE: .95
    
    Just when you think its safe to venture back into dejavu....
    
    ...dale
    

    re.90
    Carla, I dident know that as fact the info was given to me by a
    swiss native in switzerland 3 years ago I only assumed he knew what he
    was talking about since he claimed to be a part of the civil defense
    system in that country. 
    
    -j

    re: .99 (Jerry)
    
    >>	assumed he knew what he was talking about since he claimed to be
    >>	a part of the civil defense system in that country.
    
    	But would you believe everything any US enlisted man tells you?
    	With few exceptions, every Swiss man between the ages of 18-60 
    	(or is it 65?) must serve in the Swiss army two weeks out of 
    	every year.  Your informant is not a special exception, he is 
    	the subject of Swiss military law.
    
    						   Carla
    

    No I wouldent believe just anything a US enlisted man would tell
    me nor would I expect an exact answer about just how many they could
    or couldent safely shelter. BTW-This man was an officer in the swiss
    army and an associate of my ex-father-in-law (outlaw?).
    Either way they are far better prepared to survive a war than we
    are here in the US. The reason for this as I was told again by the
    person I mention is based on both on their geographic location and
    their desire to remain neutral in a war situation.
    END TANGENT
    
    -j

    
    
    	Re: .101
    
    	"BTW-This man was an officer..."
    
    	(valid evidence that this person had no idea what was going
    	 on ;-)) It is rather unadviseable to believe people bacause
    	 of their title.
    
    	Having worked with NATO personel from various countries I have
    come to the conclusion that the only dif. between ANY millitary
    organization and the Boy Scouts is that the Boy Scouts have adult
    supervision.                        
    
    Switz. wont be attacked because of its topography not the geographic
    location. (this is very desierable) and the desire to remain neutral
    is more due to the fact that they do not have a major ave. to attack
    from.
    
    but enough of this. I am catching the next tank to Denver! and
    i doubt you will believe this from what i saw in your first sentence.
    
    craig
    

    Not that I care enough to continue this but maybe a true swiss
    currently living there will tell us what inquireing minds wish to
    know...XANADU::HELVETICA is the swiss notes file.
    
    -j
    

    	According to Boopsie in DOONSEBURY, the earthquake Nostradamus
    "predicted" will occur tomorrow, May 27, not May 8 or 23 as previously
    predicted, due to some unforseen events.
    
    	:^)
                                            

    Something in the back of my mind says that the New City is neopolis,
    i.e., Napoli, i.e., Naples, Italy. 
    
    Been any activity in Naples??

    From my understanding, the reason the Swiss remain neutral is because
    they have ALL THE CASH.  It is hard to take sides when you hold
    everyones money!
    
    
    Bob

    re: 28
    
    I read a book about hitler about 5 years ago, according to the book
    hitlers grandfathers name was 'hister.' if anyone is interested
    i can look it up and tell you exactly what it says...
    

    Re .107:
    
    Well, as I recall, Hitler's real name was something like
    Schickelgruber.  But even assuming that he had a grandfather named
    "Hister," would not that mean that the "prophecy" would have involved
    the grandfather rather than the grandchild?
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    According to the book ( and my poor memory) Hilter's name was Hitler
    his fathers name was I think Hister and then changed to Hitler and
    his grandfathers name was Schickelgruber..again it's been five years
    since i read the book so i will try and find the book this weekend
    to confirm what i am saying. By the way I am not trying to make
    a correlation between prophecy and the hitler family, i was just
    trying to recall something i once read as just a footnote...

    re: .45 (Darrell)
    
         Did you hang your hat up?
    
    
    Frederick
    

    Hey Frederick
    
    kind of timely this move for Synergy (Laz,Jach,Penny)et.al
    from San Francisco to Florida.....don't ya think?
    
    which may bring up some questions around Cosmic (Universal) Laws
    that pertain to all realms of reality....not just this Earthly one.
    
    Lets suppose Lazaris knew of the impending quake. Would he/she be
    bound by some Cosmic (Universal) law to keep mum in order for all
    of our realities to play out?   
    
    
    what do you kids think?

    re: .111
    
          Based on my experiences with Lazaris, I'd say "yes" to your
    question.  He has told us that he may not tell us the greater truth
    if he thinks it will hurt us.   Also, since he is not here to save
    the planet nor to "DO" our realities for us, he won't...and he
    can't anyway.  WE are in charge of our reality...he can show us how
    to change it but he cannot do it...interfering with a reality just
    means that we'll have to do anyway.
    
         Yes, I am certain he knew of this earthquake and didn't say so.
    Another reason why not is that he never says something WILL happen,
    only that it appears that it will.  WE have, after all, the power
    to change the reality and make it different.
         I am also fairly certain that Jach, et al didn't move on this 
    account.  (There have been no earthquakes that would have affected
    either their homes or their businesses anyway.)
    
    Frederick