Conference hydra::dejavu

    Certainty is at best uncertain.  (Gawd, I love a good lead in line!)
    
    Well Jas old friend it looks like you've been pondering life again.
    All you came up with is questions, huh?  Welcome to the club.
    
    I love to examine all possibilities.  Your statement that a life
    searching is not much of a life is counter to my idea that the perfect
    life is one of searching.  If we didn't look for the new, if we
    didn't look to add to our knowledge, if we didn't try to find the
    unknown and know the unknowable we would be no better than the animals
    many feel we are better than.  We would be just living until we
    died.  Not much of a life in my book.
    
    And when we get to the final question and answer period he who knows
    the most answers is not going to be any better off.  He will just
    have enjoyed getting there a little more.
    
    Just a ramblin' Stan

    re: .1
    
    Was that me?  I guess my fingers had a spasm.  So you want an 
    algorithm to determine when certainty has been reached?
    
    How about:
    
    	1.  Examine all known possibilities and pick the most likely
    	    at the present time.
    
    	2.  Examine all the evidence.
    
    	3.  Does the evidence support the assumption in 1.?
    
    	4.  Yes.  Good, you are back   4a. No.  Guess again and you are
    	    at 1. again.  		   back at 1. again.
    
    Now, the person who is closeminded can stop after one iteration
    or two and say "I have found certainty."  The wise person merely
    realizes he has reached a currently acceptable (as best can be proven)
    level of certainty.  This level of certainty is given the term
    "scientific law" or some such.  The wise person progresses using
    his accepted "laws" as building blocks.  Until the "laws" en toto
    give an erroneous answer or are unable to define a new phenomena,
    they are the "law".  When the error is detected or the phenomena
    unexplained then it is time for another iteration(s).
    
    Certainty is, at best, uncertain.  What we know today is less than
    we will know tomorrow.  Much of what we know today will remain true
    tomorrow.  Some of what we accept as true today will be found in
    error tomorrow.
    
    Certainty is nothing more than an acceptable level of confidence
    that what we have is true.
    
    Stan

    I don't think one can be absolutely certain about anything.
    Death and Taxes are maybe two, as my Economics teacher in
    High School said....but really, as another teacher I was
    rather fond of, Stephen Gaskin of The Farm in Summertown, TN
    used to say, "Go by your First Flash, God has given you a
    Brain, use it, it's a Good One!".
    
    This "First Flash" is old 60's terminology that describes
    being aware of the situation at hand going on outside of
    yourself and also what's going on inside the o'l brain.
    
    And when you feel the impluse to act or speak, that first
    impulse is the best to go by. Now to qualify this some what,
    Gaskin was speaking from a Non-Violent_Pacifist_Idealistic_
    Mystical_Vegetarian_San Francisco Hippie_Point of view.
                                                           
    I haven't thrown out all that Wild Crazy Mystical 60's stuff with
    my now Semi-Yuppie Corporate Cosmopolitan City Lifestyle.
    
    -Arthur
      
    
    
    
    
     

    RE: .0
    
     
     Everything comes and goes
     Marked by lovers and styles of clothes
     Things that you held high and told yourself were true
     Lost or changing as the days come down to you 
     
    
    Joni You-Know-Who

    
    re:.0
    
    sorry to see the confusion, maybe this will help...
    
    	all that we know is a lie.
    	we will know more lies tomarrow,
    	and yet we will still know nothing, for truth in itself is
    	incomplete. We must also understand the false.
    
    	Why false is true and true is truth is but to mix false
    	and true.
    
    	why day tis day, night tis night, and false is truth, is but
    	to waste day, night, and life...
    		Therefore, since brievity is the soul of wit, 
    	and truth and false encumber it, i will be brief.
    		Madam, your children here are false, tis true!
    	tis true tis false! tis false tis true!
    
    		That they plead for 1 yet all have 10 is true,
    	that they plead for truth with lies is folly! EXECEPT IN
    	THE FIRST STEP! You could grasp all 10 with 1 hand, yet
    	you cannot for both hands are filled with your truth.
    	so ye shall never grasp more than 3!!!!
    
    now that we have straightened that out,
    
    i would have to say that the answer i choose fits into place
    	without effort. if one of the many answers seems more
    	"right" or "carries more truth/logic" i will attempt
    	to not pick it nor shun it. doors all over the place open up when
    	you let answers flow into place instead of hammering a square
    	peg into a round hole (because someone told you a square was
    	round) Why?  dont ask me that question...
    
    fey off the walls tonight mouse
    
    P.S. how'd ya like the Shakespearian/Crowley style above???
    		
                                   

    Alister you aint....

    
    	Such warm, imaginative replies! But I was hoping to hear from
    some of those who might "ask the oracle", if you will, and find
    out how they consider whatever the result of that is.
    
    	For example, I'm sure someone here has used a pendulum, I mean,
    this is DEJAVU...There are many notes talking about dreams someone's
    had relative to the certainty of whatever message the dream is
    conveying. There must be someone here who *expects* certain dreams
    to occurr, and when they do, they factor that into whatever it is
    they are building certainty in.
    
    	Joe Jas

    I found this inquiry to be an interesting one. What should be
    understood at the very beginning is that a question of this magnitude
    could hardly be explored in a few lines. Nevertheless, I would offer
    the following ideas for consideration.
    
    In the realm of Philosophy there is a branch of the same called
    Epistemology. Epistemology asks the question, "How do learn, or
    how do know anything?" When one examines the sources of learning
    and knowledge things become a bit clearer. For example: we learn
    things through:
    
    Experience
    Repetition
    Imitation
    Experimentation
    Investigation (Systematic)
    Being taught
    Intuition 
    
    These are just a few sources of learning and or knowledge.
    At this juncture I think it is very important to define what is considered
    Knowledge and what is a "Belief". Many times one is offered erroneously
    in place of the other.
    
    Basically Knowledge, is "OBJECTIVE" information that can be proven and
    and holds up to repeated investigation and can readily be examined by
    others and will reflect the same information under any condition to any
    inquirer. Belief on the other is "SUBJECTIVE" based on ones on
    inclinations, prejudices, convictions etc.
    
    How can one be certain? The answer lies perhaps in understannd the premise
    I have set forth. If this is a major issue with you then examine
    concepts in terms of "KNOWLEDGE vs BELIEF " perhaps this will take
    you down a less bumpy road to certainity.
    
    Intuition is recognized universally in the discipline of Philosophy
    as a legitiamate source of learning . . . but that's another Note.
    
    Regards,
    
    Richard
    
                                             
    
    

    	I must take exception with Craig in that I don't believe all we
    	know is a lie.  This could be a Reality vs. Fantasy topic (quiet
    	Cindy) but the bottom line is if you *know* something to be true 
    	that's about as far as you can take it within the limited realms 
    	of the mind.  What is beyond individual knowledge?
    
    >>	How do you trust your thoughts? 
    
    	Most of the time I don't, at least not initially.  =8*)  While 
    	relative to the subject of the thought, at this stage I attempt 
    	to devote equal thought-perusal power to many different areas of
        my life rather than just concentrating on one.  Have felt very 
    	strongly about a situation only to enact a complete turnaround 
    	the next week.  My spiritual quest means a willingness, nay, 
    	*eagerness* for the New but only when changes are positive for 
    	all aspects involved.  Even while writing this I realize how 
    	much certain constants (professional/emotional) mean to me, so 
    	those also must be incorporated into the scope of trusting my 
    	thoughts--devotion to what/who I believe in.  (Sounds bloody 
    	idealistic but seems to be working!)  Whatever your formula, 
    	it's got to be *yours*.
    
    >>	I mean, do you go with the first sensible idea that pops up? Or 
    >>	do you search for another possibility? How about all the possi-
    >>	bilities?
    
    	Can one ever explore *all* the possibilities?  Just as soon as 
    	I'm comfortable in a reaction and/or decision something will be 
    	tossed my way to knock me off kilter, causing reassessment and 
    	re-evaluation of everything I thought to be true.  Truth is 
    	transient, as it is individual.

    >>	How persistant are you in ascertaining a level of assuredness 
    >>	*before* you lay your words, money or time down, or make your 
    >>	move?
    
    	Relatively persistent until I'm relatively sure.  ;-)
    
    >>	If you feel something to be true, the way it is, ect - how does
    >>	that affect your assuredness? Do you ever suspect "feelings"?

    	I rely heavily on my feelings since I'm of a non-technical back-
    	ground.  =8*)  And they are subject to interrogation on quite a
    	regular basis.  Yes, Time is generally the deciding factor in 
    	certainty related to a decision.
    
    >>	And what are the cues that lead you to the feeling? Literal?
    >>	Mystical? Dream messages? Messages from "Across a crowded 
    >>	room"?

    	All of the above.
    
    						   Carla
    

    
    Re: 9
    
    > ...the bottom line is if you *know* something to be true
    > that's about as far as you can take it within the limited realms
    > of the mind.
    
    	Q. Does truth hold itself to the limited Realms of the mind?
           (are there things we do not know that are truth?)                           
    
    	Q. Why is that about as far as you can take it?
    
    > What is beyond individual knowledge?
    	
    	A. Group knowledge.
    
    	I'll give a brief explanation of what I interpret in the
    	phrase "all we know is a lie".
    
    1) the knowledge we hold an *ANY* subject is incomplete.
    
    2) to truly know something you must completly understand not only
    	its composition, but its interactions, emotions, past, future,
    	ect...
    
    therefore... honestly we cant say we have complete knowledge of
    		anything. So... when we say we know something we are
    		in fact telling a lie.   	
    
                       
    Craig.

	re: .10

        In fact, as knowledge is gained more becomes unknown.

        Terry

RE: .11 (Terry)
    
    In fact, as knowledge is gained more is *known* to be unknown.
    
    					Topher

	But...

        Isn't all we *know*, I mean really *know*, that we exist (have
        consciousness) and exist in some 'outer' world?  Isn't all else is 
	nothing more theory built upon these two knowns?

        Terry

    what _is_ reality...
    
    
    besides a crutch for people who can't handle drugs???
    
    	bruce

reality is having to face things you don't want to face
and do things you don't want to do
drugs are a crutch to "help" you face it while they rob you
of the ability to think clearly  (Thereby limiting your choices)

i'd much rather have a good dream

oh what a downer, huh?

reality is whatever you perceive it to be.

i think it's important to construct a reality in which you can believe
give yourself boundaries
and rules by which to live
and adapt them when you need to
but keep them relatively consistent...

the tough part happens when a lot of adapting is needed
and uncertainty abounds

like now!

    
    Re.-1 (Meredith)
    
    > ...and uncertainty abounds.
    
    I can relate.  The trick is not to become afraid of the uncertainty.
    That is the most valuable lesson I've learned within the last 3-4
    weeks.  
    
    Cindy

RE: .13 (Terry)
    
    A belief is something that we assume or presume to be true.
    
    Knowledge is objectively justified belief (because no other definition
    I know of is well defined, useful and distinct from belief, and
    because this is approximately the definition now generally used
    by philosophers).
    
    I believe that though one may have a belief in the certainty of
    something, I do not believe that one can have knowledge of the
    certainty of something.  Therefore defining knowledge as belief
    in a certain truth is operationally useless.
    
    I do not believe that we really *know* (i.e., have certain knowledge)
    either that we exist or that an outside world exists (particularly
    the latter).  However, those are two assumptions whose rejection
    leaves us nothing, and so we make them.  They are not the only
    such (for example, we also assume that our senses result in beliefs
    which are somehow correlated with the "outer" world).
    
    					Topher

re; .16 - Cindy;

wow, that's quite pensive stuff!
    
>The trick is not to become afraid of the uncertainty.

because what does fear do but bring you down, right?  and interfere with the 
possibility of attaining the Highest Good...

sounds like something to take in to meditation, to me!

>    That is the most valuable lesson I've learned within the last 3-4
>    weeks.  

and thanks for sharing it!    

    
    Re: .13
    		
    	well what if we are all a figment of someone elses imagination?
    
    Re: .15
    > reality is having to face things you don't want to face and do
    > things you don't want to do.
    
    	LIKE COSMIC!!! I'M NOT REAL!!!
    
    reality=your individual universe made up of the things that you
    	    consider real.
    
    	Delete your need to understand! (the only thing certain is 
    			uncertainty.)
    
    	
    Re: .17
    		and to add a tad...
    
    	"the khabs is in the khu, not the khu in the Khabs"
    
    				OR
    
    	you are not inside your body; your body is inside you!