| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 713.1 | Addition to .0 | NEXUS::MORGAN | Human Reality Engineering, Inc. | Sun Apr 24 1988 00:17 | 7 |
| BTW, if you look at the introduction to Streibers _Cat_Magic_ you'll
see part of Whitley's evolutionary process.
Now on the other hand I don't read much of the UFO material. Could
Striber be riding a popular wave (UFOs and Witchcraft) to sell his
books? Is he sincere??
|
| 713.2 | | SSDEVO::ACKLEY | Aslan | Sun Apr 24 1988 00:36 | 18 |
|
I just finished "Communion" last week, and I was surprised to find
at the end of the book that Whitley Strieber was so willing to
consider alternative theories about his experiences. In his book
he says that *something* real happened, but he is not stuck on
any one particular interpretation of the experience. It doesn't
surprise me that he is considering new ideas as he is becoming more
familiar with this unusual territory, but this is only a little
different from the ideas he expressed in his book, and I don't think
it's a complete about-face.
I think he is sincere, although confused by the nature of
his unusual experiences. Clearly he *is* evolving as he is learning
to come to terms with these weird events. I hope he writes more
"non-fiction", since it will be interesting to see where he goes
from here...
Alan.
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| 713.3 | Reply to .2; Alan, | NEXUS::MORGAN | Human Reality Engineering, Inc. | Sun Apr 24 1988 15:24 | 6 |
| A clarification to .1, in _Cat_Magic_ Whitley says that the fairy
people were his subconscious recollection of the aliens. A description
of them before he knew that he visited by aliens.
I'm glad to see his theory evolve. That's healthy. It will be very
interesting to see where it winds up.
|
| 713.4 | | GEMVAX::ROY | | Mon Apr 25 1988 17:00 | 8 |
| FYI --
Strieber's TRANSFORMATION is due out soon...It's supposed to be
a follow-up to COMMUNION.
(See also Note 27 if you can stand skimming though -->450 entries!)
Maureen
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| 713.5 | Can't See The Forest For the Tree's | BORIKN::ESPOSITO | | Wed Apr 27 1988 01:49 | 8 |
| Never before has there been a greater preoccupation with UFO's.
A vast segment of our culture seems to be looking without for
the extra-terrestrial appearing of some entity that will point the
way. Yet two thousand years ago such an entity came to this planet
in a fashion that is as wondrous and incredible as it is marvelous!
His appearing staggers the imagination and his mission remains unequaled!
Yet the masses did not recognize him then, and today they still cry
out for a "sign"!
|
| 713.6 | ~/~ | DECWET::MITCHELL | Art imitates life imitates TV | Wed Apr 27 1988 16:57 | 7 |
| RE: .5 (Esposito)
Oh! You mean the one who said "I have not come to bring peace,
but a sword?"
John M.
|
| 713.7 | | BPOV09::GROSSE | | Wed Apr 27 1988 17:03 | 2 |
| RE.5 King Arthur?
|
| 713.8 | | SCOPE::PAINTER | | Wed Apr 27 1988 18:06 | 2 |
|
*Groan!*
|
| 713.9 | Matthew 10:34 to 39 | BORIKN::ESPOSITO | | Mon May 02 1988 23:04 | 32 |
| Dear John:
Precisely!
So great are the demands of true discipleship that obediance leads
to conflicts within ones own family and opposition by ones own parents,
and society itself many times!
Josephus a contemporary historian of Christ's day recorded the horrible
scenes of Christians being torn asunder in the Roman arenas.
Today behind the Iron Curtain the Gulag's are filled with untold
thousands whose only crime was to propagate their faith.
The other alternative . . . deny your faith and avoid the distasteful,
painful "Sword". Many do, and choose comfortable doctrines. From
ancient Rome to the Spanish Inquisition to Communism the Sword,
my friend has been everpresent and He spoke of it.
He was clear and stated openly that to follow Him would cost something.
Unlike individuals that solicit memberships into clubs by telling of
and showing "only" the benefits, Christ showed His nail scared hands
and pierced side.
When a man or a woman stands up for he or she belives in there will
always be a price to pay. So he openly declared in Matthew 10:34
to 39 in the context of these verses, you are correct.
Regards,
Richard
|
| 713.10 | | DECWET::MITCHELL | Art imitates life imitates TV | Thu May 05 1988 20:34 | 7 |
| RE: .9
Ah, but Richard, the "bearing one's cross" doctrine doesn't exactly
click with Jesus's statement that his yoke is easy.
John M.
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| 713.11 | A Clarification | BORIKN::ESPOSITO | | Sat May 07 1988 17:15 | 40 |
| John:
I am not sure what you mean?
The universal requirement (principle) of discipleship whether it
be to a Zen Buddahist Master or to a Hindu sect is as Jesus set
forth in context:
"Then Jesus said unto his disciples, If any man will come after
me, let him DENY HIMSELF, and take up his cross and follow me."
Matthew 16:24.
(This is the accurate rendering of what you had referenced in
paraphrase, "bearing ones cross".)
Self denial means suffering! Placing one's own want's, desires, need's,
opinions likes, dislikes in submission to anothers will will produce
burdensome pain for anyone! The point being that no man can even
contemplate "taking up his cross unless he DENIES HIMSELF FIRST!!!
Otherwise it would be unthinkable.
It "does not click" as you stated with what Jesus said about "His
Yoke being easy" because one statement, in context mind you, has
nothing to do with the other . . . how could they "click".
Jesus said, " Come unto me all ye that labour and are heavy laden,
and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me
for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your
souls. For MY YOKE IS EASY and MY BURDEN IS LIGHT."
Matthew 11: 28-30.
With this in mind, HIS yoke that one takes upon himself in becoming
His disciple would be easy and light because the Master intends
to help with the burden!
I trust this explains in a cleared fashion.
Regards,
Richard
|
| 713.12 | Reply to .11, Esposito, | NEXUS::MORGAN | Human Reality Engineering, Inc. | Sat May 07 1988 19:03 | 71 |
| >The universal requirement (principle) of discipleship whether it
>be to a Zen Buddahist Master or to a Hindu sect is as Jesus set
>forth in context:
>"Then Jesus said unto his disciples, If any man will come after
>me, let him DENY HIMSELF, and take up his cross and follow me."
>Matthew 16:24.
This is not a universal principal in todays culture. (Things always
change. Ask Eris. B^) With modern media one can follow a master, but
not too closely. Certainly not close enough for the master to see that
the follower is way, way behind.
Even with the advent of the printing press one is able to follow
the teachings of a teacher without seeing the teacher face to face,
or even living in the same age.
In the past I've done work in discipleship with young Christians.
A face to face relationship was the rule, not the exception.
>Self denial means suffering! Placing one's own want's, desires, need's,
>opinions likes, dislikes in submission to anothers will will produce
>burdensome pain for anyone! The point being that no man can even
>contemplate "taking up his cross unless he DENIES HIMSELF FIRST!!!
>Otherwise it would be unthinkable.
In my ramblings through asectic (right word?) religious systems I found
that man tried to answer the tough questions of life by running away
from them. There is no reason to deny oneself of anything. Should one
like brass elephants one can honestly earn a collection of them without
being guilty of some imagined sin.
Taking up ones cross has been addressed in an indirect manor in
::Religion. In identifying with any particular God/dess, some of the
more dogmatic doctrines demand the suffering of the follower by
substituting a new psychological being for the old one. This, of
course, is readily done to the new and easily programmable neophyte.
The boundaries of this suffering go from what we currently know of as
practices of the Priest/esses of Attis and Cybele (who castrated and
mutilated themselves), through the Jains (who committed physical and
psychological suicide), through the Flagelants (who whiped themselves
into ecstatic frenzies), to our present day systems that demand the
mythic identification of the believer with the God.
I'm not convinced that suffering is demanded by any God/dess of any
person. Such are the twisted imaginations of man. Such doctrines have
crippled the race so far. Hopefully these religious belief systems will
die before they kill us all. (I don't need a quick trip to Heaven
by dying in an Islamic holy war.)
>Jesus said, " Come unto me all ye that labour and are heavy laden,
>and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me
>for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your
>souls. For MY YOKE IS EASY and MY BURDEN IS LIGHT."
>Matthew 11: 28-30.
I'm not sure Jesus said this. I have it from good sources that this
saying was originally attributed to Isis, "The Goddess" of an Earlier
Age. I've haven't looked for the quote from Isis so I don't know for
sure that it exists.
Indeed mythic identification demands an ego death of the believer.
This is not a light yoke as it is a restructuring of the believers
psyche. It hurts...
>With this in mind, HIS yoke that one takes upon himself in becoming
>His disciple would be easy and light because the Master intends
>to help with the burden!
While you may believe this I don't. While it may be valid for you, it's
not valid for all people, for all times and cultures...
|
| 713.13 | REply to .5, Esposito | NEXUS::MORGAN | Human Reality Engineering, Inc. | Sat May 07 1988 19:21 | 30 |
| This seems to be fair bait...
>Never before has there been a greater preoccupation with UFO's.
>A vast segment of our culture seems to be looking without for
>the extra-terrestrial appearing of some entity that will point the
>way. Yet two thousand years ago such an entity came to this planet
>in a fashion that is as wondrous and incredible as it is marvelous!
>His appearing staggers the imagination and his mission remains unequaled!
>Yet the masses did not recognize him then, and today they still cry
>out for a "sign"!
A deliever has been sought by most changing or dying cultures. Needless
to say delievers did not arrive. Even the search or prophecy for/of a
deliever is a step in the WRONG direction.
We change our world by first changing ourselves, then changing our
little corner of the planet until all the little changers join hands
and change our nation, then our planet. The responsibility is upon
us, not upon redeemers, not upon saviors, not upon divine kings,
not upon gifted politicians.
So while I understand the UFO phenomena I think that it is a step in
the wrong direction; one that debilitates people, robs them of personal
empowerement, demeans their individual personal value and places their
limited human efforts in the wrong social areas.
BTW, His appearing is a nice story, but it staggers no one. The
important thing is to be here now, not there then; to do something
today that improves our world, not to live in the glories of the
past.
|
| 713.14 | Evolving into known, yet unknown areas. | NEXUS::MORGAN | Human Reality Engineering, Inc. | Sat May 07 1988 19:59 | 42 |
| The reason I started this topic was to bring out the idea that there is
a substantial possibility that the quest for a savior, whether it be a
Divine sacrifical God man or UFOs, is a deep psychological quest for
inner value. Inner value we always had and always reatain.
Occidental religious culture has failed us in that they typically rob
us of inner value (by lying to us) and forcing us to look to an
external source for validation (their particular God).
They have also confused us by telling us that the spiritual world
is important, but never teaching us how to cultive our own spiritual
worlds. Typically they make us depend upon their spiritual world,
external and alien to ourselves.
Whitley Strieber and others continue this same tradition by looking to
an external source for validation. Whitley Streiber tells us "I'm
important because I was abducted by superior beings." An American
Televangel preaches to us saying "I'm important because I was chosen by
God. Listen, therefore, to me."
Some trained individuals know and understand how to project their
consciousness via etheric and astral forms. Most everyone else does
it spontaniously, without control, mistaking the experience for
divine, spiritual experience.
Whitley is abducted by space aliens, the apostle Paul is caught up to
the third heaven. Both are etheric or astral projections of
consciousness and neither Whitley nor Paul understand their part in the
experience. Both attribute the experience to an external source while
the experience was generated internally.
The saddest part of all this is that we are all important. We all have
innate value and need not look to an external Deity for validation.
This I refer to as the sickness of trancendence. "Be what you cannot be,
An external God will help you trancend your lack of value and make you
important again."
Our cultures monotheistic God is being replaced by a mysterous force
from outer space. The more mysterious, the more like our previous
mysterious, monotheistic God, the better...
Yes, Whitley is evolving. He is evolving into known occult areas.
|
| 713.15 | Someday the message will be truly understood by all. | CLUE::PAINTER | | Mon May 09 1988 11:48 | 17 |
|
Re.13-.14 (Mikie)....Amen! (;^) I couldn't resist.....
Yes indeed, the Kingdom (Heaven or whatever you want to call it),
is within. As the poster on my wall says "Before we can explore
the world, we must first explore our own minds."
As for Oral Roberts, the televangelist who proclaimed that God told
him to raise 11 million dollars or that he would be 'called home',
political satirist Mark Russell wanted to nominate him for the Nobel
prize for Economics for his unique and innovative "threat from God"
approach to fundraising.
I'm glad that Ron and Nancy talk to astrologists - makes me sleep
a bit more soundly at night.
Cindy
|
| 713.16 | | CSCMA::PERRY | | Thu Dec 28 1989 11:11 | 35 |
| I'm a little late for this conference.....
It IS dec 1989 you know...
I think you have all misread WS's purpose. I don't see that
he is concerned with having people 'follow' him in some
twisted respect. I think he is just dicovering something
really strange and he needs to get in touch with it. And
what a better way for a writer to get in touch with it than
to write about it....
The intro to this conference is well written. I have read tons
and tons of material on UFO's and it would seem this idea about
inter-dimensional travel/existense/communications etc...
is pretty sound. Take a look around you - - the human race is
pretty narrow minded.
Who is to say that 'things' exist in other dimensions/vibratory
levels - - etc. We are so ground by 'science' that we forget that
there could be more to reality. Our arrogance behooves me.
Some interesting books on abductions (less the not so well
written material i.e. Budd Hopkins material)
"the Interrupted Journey" by R. Fowler
"The Andreassean Affair" (two books)
"Dimensions" by Jaques Valee
oops maybe Fowler wrote the A Affair...
seeeeee ya.
joe p.
|