| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 675.1 | Topher's reply | WRO8A::GUEST_TMP | HOME, in spite of my ego! | Wed Mar 23 1988 02:09 | 58 |
| I am taking the liberty of transfering this response to what was
originally 152.16 and is now 675.0
Frederick
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<<< DMATE2::DUA0:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DEJAVU.NOTE;1 >>>
-< Psychic Phenomena >-
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Note 152.17 Early Americans, When? 17 of 19
PBSVAX::COOPER "Topher Cooper" 43 lines 22-MAR-1988 13:34
-< Not so hard on yourself >-
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RE: .16
Frederick:
You are the only one qualified to judge yourself but I suspect that
you are being too harsh on yourself in judging yourself a coward
-- at least if you have done so without some really deep soul
searching.
First of all, its important that each of our bodies is different
and is sensitive to different things at different times -- a current
passing through the heart at one moment may cause no problem and
yet a millisecond later in the cycle would cause a massive heart
attack; mice stressed at one time of day die while identical mice
stressed at another live. You may have simply realized at some
level that, while the particular stress might have been "safe"
for the others who were there, it was dangerous for you. People
die in "spiritual ordeals" and those which take place in the
dark, so noone can monitor the participants, are particularly
dangerous.
Second -- a brave person is one who can overcome fear and pain
for a purpose. To overcome pain and fear for no purpose is simply
stupid. You obviously felt that you were not "getting" anything
out of the experience, and that you were unlikely to get anything
from its continuation -- why then put up with the pain and danger?
This obviously was not a useful path in your journey at this time.
What you *were* ready to get from the experience -- a direct
observation of the process by which others have gained insight --
you had already gotten.
In other words -- go easy on yourself -- you seem to be just
showing common sense rather than allowing "public opinion" force
you into doing what you did not feel was good for you.
Topher
P.S. I think this deserved a topic on its own, perhaps with a
keyword "Native_American". It is not directly about the base note
nor a reaction to any of the responses. We really don't have to
be too fanatical about finding an existing topic to fit a new
thought. (I'm going to add Native_American keyword and put it
on this reply).
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| 675.2 | Cindy's comments | WRO8A::GUEST_TMP | HOME, in spite of my ego! | Wed Mar 23 1988 02:12 | 28 |
| I have gone one more step and moved this note, too!
Frederick
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<<< DMATE2::DUA0:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DEJAVU.NOTE;1 >>>
-< Psychic Phenomena >-
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Note 152.18 Early Americans, When? 18 of 19
CLUE::PAINTER "Mistletoe works all year 'round." 15 lines 22-MAR-1988 18:17
-< You know your body better than they do. >-
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RE.last two
Yes, I agree with Topher.
I recall reading somewhere (probably in my stack of health magazines)
that saunas are to be avoided if you have certain health problems,
and heart problems immediately come to mind.
Sounds like you did the sensible thing to me....I wouldn't have
lasted the first round since I've been known to almost pass out in
the bathtub and even outdoors in July if the temp. and humidity is
too high.
Cindy
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| 675.3 | Mikie?'s words | WRO8A::GUEST_TMP | HOME, in spite of my ego! | Wed Mar 23 1988 02:15 | 17 |
| And, finally, I took my final liberties of this time and moved
this note.
Frederick
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<<< DMATE2::DUA0:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DEJAVU.NOTE;1 >>>
-< Psychic Phenomena >-
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Note 152.19 Early Americans, When? 19 of 19
NEXUS::MORGAN "Human Reality Engineering, Inc." 4 lines 22-MAR-1988 23:26
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Saunas should be avoided by overweight persons. Fat is an insulator
and if the body gets overheated there is no way to throw off excess
heat through fat.
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| 675.4 | Maybe it helps the complexion? | WRO8A::GUEST_TMP | HOME, in spite of my ego! | Wed Mar 23 1988 02:47 | 49 |
|
re: .3
Well, then it goes to show what a remarkable physical
constitution Crow Bear must have for he must weigh well over
230 pounds!
re: .2 and .3 and a little of .1
In fact, it was rather amazing to me to observe how much tolerance
many of the others were capable of. There were small children of
all ages (except for teenagers...they always seem to avoid these
sorts of things...:-) ) and many of these had no blankets, towels,
etc. of any kind. One little boy I noticed only had shorts on and
that was it! In the woman's group some white woman went in with
her infant (6 monthS old or less) (who seemed to be breast-feeding
all the time.) I have no way of knowing if the baby was covered
or not since I wasn't in there with them.
re: .1 and some .2 and some .3
I didn't mean coward quite that strongly. But I think Topher
is right in that I didn't really have anything but observation
going into this. Many of the others were really seeking that
spiritual connection (and even Dana, my girlfriend, reported
to me today that she felt real Earth connected by doing this and
wants to do it again.) (Groan!) Another thing I didn't mention
because I felt that it wouldn't "compute" for many of you is that
when I was first enclosed in the darkness I couldn't help but
relate to an Egyptian lifetime I was told by Lazaris that I had
had wherein I was imprisoned by my priest father when I refused
to be a priest rather than a healer (though I, too, was a priest.)
I spent three years in a dungeon in Egypt never again seeing the
light of day until I died, according to Lazaris. This was VERY
much on my mind while I was in the sweat lodge. And I really didn't
mind all the other aspects (e.g. the woman behind me had both her
feet on either side of my hips nice and snuggly and I sort of
liked that! :-) ,) I just couldn't foretell how much longer I
would have had to take that "abuse" and I felt that it was unnecessary.
Moreover, I have a very strong Earth connection on the property
I own and live on (including my own power spot) and I have no real
need to experience that, either. I feel like I can connect with
the "Spirits" or Cosmos or whatever in many easier ways. Also,
I guess I'm really not that much into rituals. Dana, for one, loves
rituals. Anyway, I think that's about enough on this for me.
Any other Indian ceremonies and comments are most certainly
welcome.
Frederick
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| 675.5 | Anyone know of vision questing? | ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI | Turning down to Zero | Wed Mar 23 1988 09:09 | 31 |
|
You know, one way down the road to enlightenment involves self
depravation, perhaps approaching self mutilation. A shaman is the
way she/he is partly because of the way they live - you wouldnt
go off and sit in a prayer seat somewhere in the middle of the woods
for a month without eating. (I imagine if you did you'd have all
kinds of visions...) It's a tough life, as you found out first hand!
Does anyone know about the vision questing process of the American
Indians? I believe I know the whereabouts of many "special places"
where this was done. The offerings are there and easily recognised.
They usually consist of iron, bottles or perhaps a glass insulator.
Sounds like an old bottle dump, right? But, where's the old shoes?
One thing I notice seems to be a "fascination" with metal, iron
specifically. One of the most amazing structures I've seen is made
out of iron grid, the kind used to re-inforce concrete, perhaps
4" squares. This is bent in a semicircular shape, with the apex
of the semicircle skyward and the edges of the grid driven into
the ground. The whole is about 3.5 ft tall and about 5 ft deep.
Now here's the 'clincher'. At the back of the structure trees are
growing up *through* the iron grid, as if the tree has become part
of it. Sitting crosslegged, you can squeese in under this iron canopy.
In this same place, there are more structures built similarly,
out of various -but similar- materials. I believe this was done
deliberately, just as the tree growing up through the iron wagon
wheel hoop in Boxboro (Harvard ridge apts parking lot) was.
Why the iron? What does it do? Why would you want to vision
quest under a well grounded iron canopy, if this was it's "purpose"
or whatever?
These are located in Stow mass...
Joe Jas
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| 675.6 | | FSLENG::JOLLIMORE | For the greatest good... | Wed Mar 23 1988 11:45 | 56 |
| .0 Frederick
> man named Crow Dog (who is from a tribe whose name rhymes with
> "Dakota" and is related to the Sioux, I believe.) ............
Lakota, possibly?
I'll add to your description of the lodge; a mound of earth is usually
built about 3-4' from the door, (which faces north I think). The mound is
used as an alter, where, depending on tradition, medicine objects are
either placed to be blessed or offered as gifts to the medicine man
leading the sweat (you'd best know which before laying down anything of
value!). The lodge when viewed from the side would resemble a turtle, the
symbol of the earth.
Twenty rocks seems like too many, In the sweats I have done I don't think
more than 8 were used, each having some symbolism. The rocks are prayed
over by the leader as they enter the lodge and bits of sage are placed on
the rocks as they are placed into the pit. Maybe more are used for larger
lodges. The sweats I've done have been with no more than 12 people at a
time. I've had opportunities to do sweats with a large crowd and I've
declined, something about it makes me nervous.
I enjoy a good sweat. I believe it should be very hot and very intense
and very short. Four doors of 4-5 minutes each is about right. You should
be able to exit between doors if you really need to. In the sweats I've
done, all led by a Lakota, it was very clear; if you can make it until
the door opens, please do if you can't, please leave. You simply excuse
yourself with the proper expression, and move sunwise towards the door.
It's not a contest! Out of respect for the leader, you do as you are
instructed, but I feel a good leader will allow people to leave anytime.
BTW; a sweat lodge is known also as a 'stone people's lodge'.
Joe Jas;
I know of vision quests. Or, at least, I know how vision quests are
conducted for us white folk. There are places where you can go for guided
vision quests. That is, you are counseled, placed on a mountain, and left
there for as long as it takes to get the answer you seek. There is
counselling when you return also. Deprevation is a big part of it, as is
intent and conduct. As you've mentioned, this is not the only way to
inspire vision.
The objects you described are not familiar to me. Native Americans don't
usually leave objects which are not natural. Leaving metal, or glass
bottles doesn't seem Indian to me. I do know that there are places in
Stow where ceremony is conducted. Theses (I think) are private lands
where sweats are held. There will be a grandfather's stone people's
lodge held there in April. It will be an all day workshop, with a men's
and women's sweat in the evening. It will be led by Sun Bear's teacher,
?Brooke Medicine Eagle?? I have the details at home if anyone is
interested.
Jay
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| 675.7 | | FSLENG::JOLLIMORE | For the greatest good... | Wed Mar 23 1988 11:48 | 64 |
| While we're talking about ceremony; the following was printed in th XAT
Medicine Sociey newsletter. I felt it would be appropraite here...
True Medicine
By Anderson Hewitt
XAT Medicine Society
[Reprinted without permission]
Medicine, or spiritual practices, within the Native tradition, vary
greatly from tribe to tribe. These customs and traditions were either given
to the people by celestial messengers, borrowed from neighboring tribes, or
developed from thousands of years of intimate experience with the land. They
have been preserved and held sacred both because of their origin and the fact
they work - the serve the vital spiritual needs of the people.
When, how, and under that circumstances would the traditional sacred
ceremonies such as the pipes, the sweat lodge, and the vision quest be con-
ducted and by whom? Many traditional elders are justifiably concerned when
highly sacred ceremonies are led by predominately non-Indian teachers who
have little training and understanding of the deeper meanings of these rites
- however well-intentioned. They are even more appalled when there is a
charge to these ceremonies.
In at least two prisons, conflict has arisen among Native inmates over
which customs to observe in the use of the pipe. Strong statements have been
made by self-appointed warriors who see their role as that of preventing
"their religion" from being "stolen" by non-Indians. In one case an elder
suggested to a group of young men from different tribes that they were
"behaving like Christians" in their conflict over custom, traditions, and
form and their desire to dictate what others should believe.
The truth is that, despite pronouncements and criticism, no one is able
to prevent anyone from practicing anything that is legal. Therefore let us
appeal to reason, good conscience and respect.
To the Non-Indian: Our ceremonies are very sacred. Learning to lead
them properly often involved years of training and personal commitment. Par-
ticipation involves careful physical and spiritual preparation - not to be
taken lightly or in ignorance. We are the keeperrs of Earth Wisdom in the
Western Hemishpere and we honor your desire to re-connect with the Earth in a
sacred manner. We cannot prevent you from using (or abusing) our traditions,
we can only appeal to you to undertake them under the direction of trained
elders and with deep respect in a most sacred manner. Traditional elders do
not charge for sweat and sacred pipe ceremonies. Also, remember this, the
Earth is alive. She is our mother. Listen to her. Through the wind, the
rushing waters, the falling snow, the morning mist, she will teach new sacred
earth ceremonies, appropriate for who you are and where you live.
To the Native Americans: Our first teaching is example: The love we
show the Earth; the respect we show our own teachings and especially the re-
spect and unity we maintain among ourselves. Unlike many people we do not
have a tradition of fighting and murdering each other over religion. Nor do
we have a tradition of preachers, priests and ayatollyahs telling us what we
can and cannot believe. We are each responsible directly to the Creator for
guidance, direction, and final authority. We do not worship a book - we
listen to Living Vision - each vision is unique to the seeker.
Let us be quick to respect the vision and integrity of another and work
for the unity of all. Let us be slow to condemn, divide and criticize those
whose vision is not our own.
And let us all remember the essence which stands behind all form, custom
and tradition; the essence which unites the truly spiritual people of all
religions: Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist and Native alike.
That essence is Love and Respect; Love and Respect for oneself, Love and
Respect for "all our relations", Love and Respect for the Creator, and for
this beautiful garden where the Great Mystery has placed us.
When we penetrate into the essence of all sacred form, custom and
tradition, we find the core to be simply this: Love and Respect. When this
is sought and practiced with integrity, walls crumble, conflicts cease,
divisions heal and the Creator is honored in a most sacred manner.
|
| 675.8 | | LDYBUG::PARE | What a long, strange trip its been | Wed Mar 23 1988 11:53 | 3 |
| re: .6
I'm interested Jay.
Mary
|
| 675.9 | interested | VENTUR::GRIFFIN | | Wed Mar 23 1988 13:09 | 6 |
| RE .6, .7 (Jay)
Great info as usual. :-) Could you forward it to me in care of Joe O.
Thanks.
Ted
|
| 675.10 | | WILLEE::FRETTS | doing my Gemini north node... | Wed Mar 23 1988 13:38 | 8 |
|
Re: Jay
Me too please!
Carole
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| 675.12 | ???? | CLUE::PAINTER | Mistletoe works all year 'round. | Thu Mar 24 1988 11:44 | 10 |
| Re.-1
> ...menstruating women will not be able to...
Why is this?
No flames intended - just looking for a legit reason for this as
it doesn't make any sense to me.
Cindy
|
| 675.13 | | FSLENG::JOLLIMORE | For the greatest good... | Thu Mar 24 1988 12:00 | 15 |
| -.1
I knew someone would ask...
Tradition mostly.
The sweat is a cleansing ceremony, physically and spiritually. You are
cleansed physically by the heat, releasing toxins built up in the body.
You are cleansed spiritually by the moving energy. It was believed that
women on their 'moon cycle' were being cleansed and that it was a very
special cleansing. Menstruating women were off by themselves spending
time with Creator. There was probably ritual for women being cleansed and
it may have been felt that the women should keep their solitude ritual
seperate from the ritual being conducted in the lodge.
Jay
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| 675.14 | Eagle feathers and 100 year-old bison pelt. | WRO8A::GUEST_TMP | HOME, in spite of my ego! | Thu Mar 24 1988 17:16 | 21 |
| re: Jay
Everything you have stated is pretty much what I experience.
Thanks for the fill-ins. There *were* over 30 people in some of
the sweats last Sunday. Also, women were not supposed to go in
if they were within five days of menstruation...I had guessed that
blood thinning due to heat might be a reason or, more remotely,
hygiene (all that heat)...your answer sounds much more appropriate.
Also, there were 40 rocks in my sweat, and I counted nearly 50 in
the women's sweat. Crow Dog mentioned casually as he was sitting
around on the grass that it was too hot. No mention was made of
leaving the sweat before, during or after (that I heard.) Also,
"all my relations" was the phrase to be used to enter the lodge
or to leave the lodge (when I left I was just screaming in my mind
:-) ) I also used that phrase in my "prayer" during the evening
ceremony (each person offered up a prayer...some spoke in Indian...
some in Spanish, many of the Europeans there (more than half the
group) spoke in German, French, whatever...
Frederick
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| 675.15 | | GENRAL::DANIEL | If it's sloppy, eat over the sink. | Thu Mar 24 1988 18:37 | 4 |
| ...As an aside to the main topic, but picking up one started recently within,
in the Jewish religion, a woman is not allowed to conduct religious services if
she is menstruating because she is thought to be "unclean". This will figure
prominently as more women try to become rabbis.
|
| 675.16 | | HBO::NEWFIELD | | Mon May 02 1988 18:20 | 13 |
| .12, .13,
I have been taught that women "in the moon" are not invited into
a Sweat because it is such a POWERFUL time for them that it would
take away from what others needed to receive in that Sweat.
I have been taught that it is a very sacred time for women to be
"in the moon". When women live together often they menstruate
about the same time, so there would be no loss for women to join
in.
Sandy
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| 675.17 | Sacred Time | SHRFAC::BRUNDIGE | Feel the Earth,Touch the Sky | Thu Jun 30 1988 13:17 | 19 |
|
Re: Women in their moon.
Women are more powerful for they are the holders of life within
them. They are connected to Maka Unci the Earth Mother. When
they are in their moon they are a conduit and are passing negative
out and taking positive in, this is their sacred time. If they are
in a stone lodge and were to touch a sacred object their power
would drain the object for they are connected to Maka Unci. In
addition because of her energy some of the men in the lodge may
become sick. Again this is because she may drain their energy
inadvertently while she is in the stone lodge.
Medicine men will not sleep with their wives during this time to
avoid this. These beliefs come from Sioux and Cherokee, I cannot
speak for others.
Re: .0 Where was the stone lodge held? Crow Dogs Paradise on the
Rosebud or somewhere else?
Russ
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| 675.18 | | COOKIE::CABANYA | | Thu Jun 30 1988 16:15 | 8 |
| .6
I'm interested too. My grandfather was a full-blooded Hopi that
left the reservation when he was 16. Unfortunately, he never
discussed his life or beliefs there.
Mary
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| 675.19 | An added point to .0 | WRO8A::GUEST_TMP | Going HOME--as an Adventurer | Thu Jun 30 1988 17:20 | 11 |
| re: .17
I neglected to say...but that particular sweat (and there are
ongoing all year long) was/is in Glen Ellen (near Sonoma) in
California. (This is about 40 miles north of San Francisco across
a mountain ridge from Napa.) At one time much of this whole area
had many different Indian tribes living in tranquility and ease
(so what else is new, right?) :-)
Frederick
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| 675.20 | Medicine Wheel in N.Y. | WILLEE::FRETTS | Love our Mother Earth | Mon Aug 15 1988 12:43 | 11 |
|
Hi all,
Any of you DEJAVU noters on the east coast planning to go to the
Medicine Wheel in Monticello, New York - September 16, 17 and 18th?
I'm thinking of going, and was curious if anyone else from DEJAVU
would be there.
Carole
|
| 675.21 | | FSLENG::JOLLIMORE | For the greatest good... | Tue Aug 23 1988 10:34 | 46 |
| For anyone who may have an interest in the Vision (or Fasting) Quest,
there is now an east-coast location where this is being offered. Sparrow
Hart is from Putney VT, and has just completed training and apprentice-
ship under the guidance of Steven Foster and Meredith Little, Co-Direc-
tors of the School of Lost Borders, and authors of the book; _Book of the
Vision Quest_. Besides Vision Questing, Sparrow teaches the Medicine
Walk.
Below are some extracts from his brochure. Anyone who is interested can
contact me for a copy of the brochure. Sparrow, in my opinion, is a very
conscientious and caring person and takes his teaching very seriuosly.
Jay
"It is only those who know neither an inner call nor an outer doctrine
whose plight is truly desperate; that is ... most of us today."
- Joseph Campbell
Circles of Air, Circles of Stone exists to assist individuals in
facing themselves and, alone on the earth, create meaningful rites of
passage through the transitions and crises in their lives.
Circles of Air, Circles of Stone emphasizes the authentic experience
of the individual. We assist individuals to claim their own authenticity
and authority; to define their own myths; to face their own pain and
monsters; to make their own decisions; to determine their own meanings
and succeses; to heal themselves.
Sparrow Hart, the founder, has logged thousands of hours alone in
wilderness in the United States and Mexico. Over the last 15 years he
has studied and familiarized himself with Western and non-Western
theraputic approaches, and has apprenticed with a variety of native and
non-native 'medicine teachers'.
In April 1988 he completed his training and certification at the
School of Lost Borders, Big Pine, CA, where he was an apprenticed staff
member conducting fasting quests. He has been invited to serve
occasionally as a staff member at the School of Lost Borders. Sparrow
has one child, and a special interest in adult children of dysfunctional
families.
Circles of Air, Circles of Stone ...
Earth circles, and night follows day.
We bury our seeds, we bury our bones.
While sacred birds circle and prey.
|
| 675.22 | Sandpainter coming to Lowell... | ISSHIN::MATTHEWS | | Wed Jun 13 1990 15:29 | 56 |
| Mitchell Silas is a full blooded Navajo Indian who was born and raised on
the Navajo reservation near Four Corners, NM-Colo-Ut-Az. He has been
sandpainting since his early teens when he began assisting the different
singers, (medicine men), during the varied healing ceremonies that took
place from time to time for various members of his family.
At one time Mitchell had dreams of becoming a singer himself but was told
by a medicine man that his life would follow a new and wonderful path. Now
Mitchell seeks to spread the healing message of the unity of Mankind
through the use of his talent as a sandpainter.
Mitchell and his wife, Robin, who puts the scripts together, have traveled
almost continuously for the past four years, demonstrating the rarely-seen-
in-public Ceremonial sandpaintings. For the past two-and-a-half years they
have been traveling with their daughter Kalica-Lani (Missy). Two-and-a-
half year old Missy has added new dimensions to the Silas family teaching
and travels.
The Silases have toured across the U.S at least nine times in recent years
and in 1987 toured across Canada with short trips into Mexico. They have
done workshops, classes, and public meetings in class rooms, living rooms,
libraries, and civic centers. Mitchell has shared this very special and
sacred bit of Navajo Tradition with students in universities, colleges,
high schools all the way down to nursery school. He performed his art at
two international peace conferences, (one in San Francisco and the other in
Mexico), and in Native American centers and Museums across the continent.
When at home, Mitchell still assists in the healing ceremonies. He still
listens and learns from the ancient stories and teachings that are an
integral part of the Navajo healing process. Navajo Tradition still holds
great influence over its people and Mitchell is no exception.
While rich tradition is the main influence of this sandpainter and artist,
his belief in the fulfillment of Navajo prophesies pointing to the advent
of "The New Day" has caused him to look to the rich influence of the many
and varied cultures and this is reflected in his permanent artwork.
Mitchell also sees his artwork as a means to preserve his identity as a
Navajo. He believes that it is the diversity of our cultures that makes us
so interesting.
The Silases will be giving a presentation and demonstrating of Ceremonial
Sandpainting at the home of Ron and Lorrie Matthews in Lowell Massachusetts
at 7:30 PM on Wednesday June 20. For more information and directions you
can send E-Mail to ISSHIN::MATTHEWS or call (508) 459-1604 after 6:00 PM
While the presentation is free and no donations to the Baha'i Faith will be
accepted, Sandpaintings by Mitchell and jewelry by Robin will be available
for sale after the demonstration.
Regards,
Ron Matthews
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| 675.23 | ...a small perspective... | MISERY::WARD_FR | Dances with Beavers | Mon Nov 26 1990 11:56 | 5 |
| For a realistic movie which depicts a few rituals by the Sioux
Indians, see "Dances with Wolves." Good movie!
Frederick
|