Conference hydra::dejavu

    Alastair, 
    
    I'd like to know more about Astrological Twins and the way you
    describe the meaning.  Are you speaking about Twin Souls, Soulmates?
    I have a twin brother who was born about 5 or ten minutes after
    I was, yet he's quite different than I am, his personality etal.
    
    I'm confused...:-)
    
    Charlene
    (Aries w/Leo rising..;-)

    
    
    I too am interested and would like more information...
    
                        Deborah
    
    

    I know Australia is a long way down under, but yes, please I would
    like more info.
    
    ....dale
    

    As it has been explained to me by my father. Astrological twins
    have to be born at the exact same time, in the same city and preferably
    in the same hospital.
    
    						Geoff

    
>
>        I'd like to know more about Astrological Twins and the way you
>    describe the meaning.  Are you speaking about Twin Souls, Soulmates?
>    I have a twin brother who was born about 5 or ten minutes after
>    I was, yet he's quite different than I am, his personality etal.
>
    I guess that actual twins are by definition astrological twins as well,
    but of a different nature - I've got some young twins in my family
    who are very different to each other; I've been told that they are
    the yin and the yan of each other. One of them beats the other up
    the whole time !
    
    Helen would be most interested in anybody who can provide any input to
    this research at all - actual twins or just singles. It will require
    all sorts to research the subject properly. Her database is still
    quite small, and she will readily correspond with anyone who would
    like to participate. 
    
    Here is her address, 
    
    		Helen Greengrass, 
    		No.2 Croft Cottages, 
    		Wattisfield, Nr. DISS
    		Suffolk, England
    
    Alternatively I will be happy to pass on your Date/Time/Place of
    birth if you send me some VAXMail to HAMPS::DUDLEY, SAC::DUDLEY
    or DGMT01::DUDLEY that includes your address as well so's she can
    get back to you.
    
    Hope to hear from you,
    	Alastair.    
    
   

    People who are born in the same place within ten minutes of one
    another do not necessarily have very similar astro. charts.  For
    instance, the ascendant may be different by several degrees, and
    this may shift the entire placement of the houses of the persons
    natal chart.  If this happens, then the placement of the ruling
    planets of those houses may be totally different.  
    	My ascendant is at 27 degrees capricorn, and that is the start
    of my first house.  Let's say that I have a twin born 15 minutes
    later.  The twin's ascendant is in aquarious, and so is the start
    of the twin's first house.  This twin has a completely different
    set of house rulerships, and although many of the planetary placements
    in our charts would be VERY similar, the significance and meanings
    of those placements will be very different.
    
    I'm not trying to imply that people born at about the same time
    & place will never have very close charts, I simply want to point
    out that a few minutes (of time or distance) can make a big difference
    in a chart, and it's interpretations.
    
    I'd be glad to elaborate if anyone is interested.  Anyone else have
    anything to add?
    
    Molly....

>
>        of the twin's first house.  This twin has a completely different
>    set of house rulerships, and although many of the planetary placements
>    in our charts would be VERY similar, the significance and meanings
>    of those placements will be very different.
>
    What you say is very true, which is why an exact time of birth is
    so important when constructing a natal chart. In Helens case, what
    struck her was the similarities between their two lives / aspirations
    DESPITE the several hours difference in their birth times/places.
    
    This raises an interesting question. For a given � or � DAY in any
    given city hospital, all the babies would be born with similar charts,
    therefore it is conceivable that they will all grow up to chartered
    accountants or used car salespeople (Heaven forbid !). This is highly
    unlikely however. The babies born would all have similar potentials, the
    crucial influencing factor is probably the house system - which as you
    point out is dependant on the exact time and place of birth. 
    
    She is in contact with a number of prominant astrologers in this
    country, many of whom have expressed interest in her project, but what
    she requires is more subject matter - to be able to make a statement
    that will attempt to arrive at a meaningful and valid conclusion. Any
    body therefore who would be prepared to pass on their astrological
    'vital statistics' would contribute to the cause - the more the
    merrier !

    
    Alastair  8*)    

    Actually, if they are born at different hours on the same day, in
    the same place, the people would have different rising signs, thus
    the planets would be similarly configured, but in different houses.
    What house things are in will make a big difference - even though
    many of the aspects will be the same.
    
    Elizabeth
    

    
    
    And just to throw in a bit more information around this topic....
    there are a number of different house systems that can be used
    to calculate the house cusps.  The two I have used are Placidus
    and Koch.  If I use the same birth data and calculate a Placidus
    chart and a Koch chart, the Ascendant (Rising Sign), Descendant,
    Mid-Heaven and Nadir are the same, but the remaining house cusps
    can, in some cases, be quite different and actually have the
    same planets in different houses (i.e. Placidus has Venus and Mars
    in the 10th, while Koch has them in the 9th).  The interpretation
    of these placements would be quite different.
    
    Also, something else to consider.  I have twin nephews (17 year
    old) who were born 5 minutes apart.  They have some similar
    personality traits and some different ones.  The charts were
    almost identical.  However, when I checked out their numerological
    data based on their names, the differences showed up there.
    
    Carole
    

    It's worth noting that it has been found that for many traits twins
    raised apart are *more* similar than twins raised separately.  The
    usual explanation for this is that twins raised together have a
    psychological need to assert their individuality and therefore
    deliberately (though generally subconsciously) find ways to be
    different from each other.
    
    					Topher

    Re .10 (Topher):
    
    >It's worth noting that it has been found that for many traits twins
    >raised apart are *more* similar than twins raised separately.
    
    I dunno.  I'd bet it would be about the same. :-D
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

RE: .11
    
    Oops!
    
    I meant, of course "...it has been found that for many traits twins
    raised apart are *more* similar than twins raised together."
    
    					Topher

>    What you say is very true, which is why an exact time of birth is
>    so important when constructing a natal chart. In Helens case, what

	I agree, but, is there a definition on the time of birth ?
	Some Indian astrologers define it to be the time when the 
	child takes the first breath.  Any other definitions ??

	
    I have been wondering if we could have twins by virtue of two
    people being born at different times and places on the globe, but,
    which are 'heavenly' the same. Example, a kid being born in Bombay 
    having the same chart as a kid being born in NewYork 10.5 hours later 
    with the same ascendant etc..

    Am I right in saying that the star positions remain the same for
    a 24 hour period, but over different points on the globe ?

    

    One other item to throw into this topic.  Relocated charts.
    
    I've just recently started to use relocated charts in earnest. 
    Relocating someone's chart involves casting the chart as if they'd
    been born at that locale.  You must change the time by the appropriate
    number of hours to compensate for time zones.  A person born at 3
    am in LA would have his/her birthtime changed to 6 am if relocating
    that chart to Boston.
    
    What changes with this technique is not the planetary positions,
    but the chart's house structure.  And, as others have pointed out,
    small changes in the house structure can be quite significant. 
    Major changes can occur when crossing one or more time zones.
    
    Now what does this have to do with astro twins?  Simply that people
    born with the same planetary positions, but not the same house
    structure, can relocate to a given locale, and end up with nearly
    identical house structures.  These people, if they should connect
    in the course of their daily lives, may find quite a bit more "daily
    life" similarities, more than people who simply have the same planetary
    positions.  And if they were somewhat astrologically knowledgeable,
    they might be puzzled about this unless they thought to relocate
    their charts to their now-home locales.
    
    And finally, I wonder if this relocation factor was operating
    in the case of the astrologer who is investigating the astro twin
    phenom due to her observance of strong life coincidences with her
    client?  I think she should cross-check for this type of thing in
    her research.
    
    Marcia
    
    PS.  Re: .13, I and many other western astrologers of my acquaintance
    use the first breath as the birthtime.  So that's what I tell
    interested prospective fathers to watch for during delivery.

    The esoteric reason I've most familiar with (and also accept as
    a truth) is that the moment of first breath is a karmically significant
    act for the child, its first act of will, when it actually chooses
    to step onto the stage of life.  The mother delivers the child whether
    it will or no; and it doesn't actively cooperate in coming out!  So
    the first breath is considered the real start of its independent
    existence on the planet.

>
>        I have been wondering if we could have twins by virtue of two
>    people being born at different times and places on the globe, but,
>    which are 'heavenly' the same. Example, a kid being born in Bombay 
>    having the same chart as a kid being born in NewYork 10.5 hours later 
>    with the same ascendant etc..
>
    This is exactly what Helen is so curious about !
    
    As for the exact time of birth, I would suggest that it should be
    the time that the new born is a free standing and (largely) self
    supporting individual - ie: it is breathing under its own volition.
    
    I'm told that the Japanese believe that an individual is 9 months
    old at birth. However I think it would be a little difficult to
    determine the actual time of fertilisation - sperm stay alive for
    some time and gestation periods are rarely exactly 9 months long.