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Conference hydra::dejavu

Title:Psychic Phenomena
Notice:Please read note 1.0-1.* before writing
Moderator:JARETH::PAINTER
Created:Wed Jan 22 1986
Last Modified:Tue May 27 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:2143
Total number of notes:41773

604.0. "Zodiac 14" by NEXUS::MORGAN (In your heart you KNOW it's flat.) Mon Dec 21 1987 14:07

    I heard a vicious rumor about the zodiac this weekend. It seems
    that 2 more constellations have crept into the zodiac at some time
    in the past to make the total 14.
    
    Any idea if this rumor is true? If true what are their names? When
    did they enter the zodiac? How does that affect astrology? Will
    I have to change my sign (06 Oct 55)?
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604.1SSDEVO::ACKLEYAslanMon Dec 21 1987 14:226
    
    	Well, my astronomy teacher told me there were 13, with the
    thirteenth being Ophiuchus (sp?), a man holding or wrestling with
    a snake.    Maybe the snake was #14?
    
    	Alan.
604.2What about large sea mammals?NEXUS::MORGANIn your heart you KNOW it's flat.Mon Dec 21 1987 16:113
    Reply to .1; Alan,
    
    I think there is a whale in there somewhere too.
604.3Liberate me from the scales of a Libra!SEINE::RAINVILLEThe best view is close to the edge!Mon Dec 21 1987 16:4011
    I don't know about Cephus, the Whale, but I thought Hercules
    had stuck a foot into the zodiacal track and could be thought
    of as a 13th sign...Maybe also the Zodiac precesses as Sol
    sweeps forwrd on it's own path...I need to know since my wife
    is an Oct 6 Libra of earlier vintage.  I know for sure she's
    afflicted with the inability to take a biased viewpoint, always
    weighing both sides of an issue until she drives me, a Scorpio,
    to distraction...An aside, I've discovered this fall, once again,
    that all the people who I've been spending free time with are
    Scorpios, as has happened before, many moons & miles away....MWR
    
604.5Can I change it? Huh? Huh?GRECO::MISTOVICHTue Dec 22 1987 11:584
604.6SPIDER::PAREWhat a long, strange trip its beenTue Dec 22 1987 14:083
    Try being a Gemini with an Aries ascendant and a Taurus moon.  Its
    like being a schizophrenic with schizophrenic tendencies._:-)

604.8signs of the times, or perhapes vice versaINK::KALLISHas anybody lost a shoggoth?Wed Dec 23 1987 10:3120
    Re .7 (Marcia):
    
    >Idea!  Maybe we could get _really_ true to nature here, and create
    >"signs" of every constellation along the Ecliptic, awarding each
    >sign only the number of degrees and minutes of space that the
    >constellation actually takes up in the sky.  Some "signs" would
    >pracatically vanish, they're so small (Aries), while some of you
    >might be dismayed to find that you had suddenly become Scorpios
    >or Leos (nice, big, spectacular constellations!). 
    
    Sort of "A niche in signs saves mine"?  :-D
    
    Actually, the solar/lunar stuff makes sense for a _model_.  What
    interesting is that the lunar _effect_, such as tides, is significantly
    stronger than the solar (steeper gravity gradient, not strength
    of attraction).  Additionally, there's a male/female aspect to this
    stuff (there's an obvious strong linkage between women and the moon;
    men seem more solar, though there's some of each in all of us).
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
604.9filling in the gaps...SSDEVO::ACKLEYAslanWed Dec 23 1987 10:498
    
    	And then there's the missing constellation;  Virgo.
    A more nondescript and hard to find group of stars could not
    be imagined.    That section of the sky almost seems empty.
    Perhaps we should look into having some of these constellations
    filled out a little.  (satellites?  projectors?)
    
    	Alan.
604.10Nondescript? I'll give you nondescriptNATASH::BUTCHARTWed Dec 23 1987 10:535
    I feel the same way about the constellation Capricorn.  I was so
    dissapointed when I finally found my Sun Sign's constellation! 
    Talk about a nondescript, wimpy-looking bunch of stars...
    
    Marcia
604.11This Used to be 604.7--Had to Delete in Order to ModifyNATASH::BUTCHARTWed Dec 23 1987 11:1493
                <<< DMATE2::DUA0:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DEJAVU.NOTE;1 >>>
                             -< Psychic Phenomena >-
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Note 604.7                          Zodiac 14                            7 of 10
NATASH::BUTCHART                                     87 lines  23-DEC-1987 10:02
                             -< Random Ramblings >-
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    Here's a scoop of sorts so far as I know it.
    
    There have _always_ been more than 12 _constellations_ that comprise
    the star patterns in the Zodiac.
    
    But the divisions of the Zodiac that astrology uses are based on
    dividing the 360-degree circle into 12 30-degree segments.  These
    segments only correspond roughly to the positions of the actual
    constellations, and due to the precession of the equinoxes, don't
    correspond even more than they used to not correspond.  Once I learned
    the distinction between the actual constellation patterns (which
    are right out there in the sky) and the concept of the "signs" of
    the Zodiac (a human thought construct roughly based on reality)
    I didn't feel driven to modify the system I work with to take those
    into account.
    
    Now, some may take issue with the "regularity" of the 12-based system,
    believing that a system that purports to help reveal our inner natures
    should be more, well, "naturally" based.  The most common argument
    I have seen is for 13 signs; this would commonly include Ophiucus.
    People who feel this way feel there should be some congruity between
    the Lunar cycles (13 lunations in a Solar year) and the number of
    signs in a Solar year.  I feel that the _combination_ of the 12
    and 13 represents the complexity of human nature even better.  The
    Solar year, on which we have imposed our "will" by making it 12
    signs is that part of us that strives to be logical, to create order,
    to have everything neatly divided and classified with no loose ends
    hanging out.  The Lunar year is those forces that do not fit, that
    are beyond our control, that are more "natural".  It the attempt
    to work with, to resolve, to live this dual nature that makes being
    human so interesting.  So I like the 12/13 coexistence; for me it
    is rich in symbolism of the human condition.
    
    But let's see--if the Zodiac has 13 signs, then the circle would
    be divided by 13.  This makes each sign 27 degrees, 41 minutes,
    32 seconds in length (note also that there are 27 days or so in
    an average lunation).  Well, it is "natural", in that it's messy
    and does correspond somewhat to the lunar cycling.
    
    If the Zodiac has 14 signs, then the circle would be divided by
    14.  Each sign would contain 25 degrees, 42 minutes, 51 minutes.
    Even messier, and doesn't have the supposed advantages of either
    regularity or corresponding to another natural cycle.
    
    There may be some validity to people feeling that they are not
    representative of "their" signs.  It is possible that including
    these two constellations could give them the feel of their niche.
    But it is also equally possible that two stronger reasons for not
    feeling "appropriately" Libran/Scorpionic/whatever apply:
    
    (1)	the astrological system is a model of reality, not reality
    	itself.  This means that there are those who will not fit
    	the model; they will statistically fall outside the predicted
    	behavior/thinking/feeling curves that astrology creates.
    
    (2) there are mucho other factors in a chart than the Sun; there
    	are more factors than Sun, Moon and Rising Sign.  It is the
    	complex combination of _everything_ that makes you who you
    	are, not just some traditionally important features.  If
    	someone has Capricorn rising, Sun in Cancer and Moon in Libra,
        these energies are supposedly the most important ones in the
    	chart.  But if Mercury is in its own sign (Gemini), in its own
        house (6th), the final dispositor of the chart, in aspect to
    	both Sun and Moon, conjunct the planet that rules the Moon and
    	the chart's Signature (Venus), and is conjunct the South Lunar
    	Node--well, that Mercury is _powerful_.  Such a person may
    	appear and at times feel more "Geminian" than Cancerian,
    	Capricornian or Libran.  My point is that some of you out
    	there may have similar dynamics operating.
    
    Idea!  Maybe we could get _really_ true to nature here, and create
    "signs" of every constellation along the Ecliptic, awarding each
    sign only the number of degrees and minutes of space that the
    constellation actually takes up in the sky.  Some "signs" would
    pracatically vanish, they're so small (Aries), while some of you
    might be dismayed to find that you had suddenly become Scorpios
    or Leos (nice, big, spectacular constellations!).  And pity the
    poor folk who can only lay claim to the foot of Hercules... :-)

    Perhaps we should ask not only what animal you'd be if you could,
    but what constellation you'd be if you could.  I always liked
    Centaurus, myself, and I can't even see it from here.  I also love
    Cygnus, flying right through the Milky Way.
    
    Marcia
604.12ZODIACFDCV03::FENTONTue Dec 29 1987 16:113
    I have been studying Astrology on and off for the past 8 years....
    I haven't heard the rumor and we are still proceeding with 
    the same instruction I received several years back.
604.13FDCV03::FENTONTue Dec 29 1987 16:156
    
    
    
    
    
    
604.14amen!ERASER::KALLISHas anybody lost a shoggoth?Tue Dec 29 1987 16:297
    Re .13:
    
    Couldn't have said it better myself!
    
    ;-)
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
604.15BUSY::MAXMIS11HOME! In spite of my eagle ;^)Wed Dec 30 1987 12:134
    Now _there_ is a noter with nothing to say, and doesn't take 50
    lines to prove it.
    
    Marion