Conference hydra::dejavu

    
    Perhaps, it is because people can control Santa but can't control
    God. By this I mean that Santa is a man-made fabrication that man
    has made to fit a need that he had. Santa is just about perfect:
    he gives and gives without really making any demands, he's happy
    and pleasent all the time, and because he's fictional the legend
    has changed and grown to fit the times and environments that foster
    Santa worship.
    
       God is, I believe, perfect, He also gives liberally, *but* God
    does make demands on people. 
    
    Gil 

    Hi.
         Santa Clause is play.  Some people take God very seriously;
    fanatically, according to the people who don't aree with them. 
    Also, what I'd say God is all about may or may not be what you'd
    say God is all about.  You might be interested in the Bible, while
    I may be interested in the Upanishads.  I may think God's going
    to send disbelievers to Hell forever, while you might think we
    basically punish ourselves for harmful actions, and that we get
    to keep coming back until we get it right.
         So, people want a chance to brainwash their own children be-
    fore anybody else gets to them.  I personally would never let my
    children NEAR a Christian church without making it real clear to
    them that there are billions of good people in the world who have
    very different beliefs that make just as much sense.
    
                   Mike

    I think its because Santa Clause is a harmless symbol of hope. 
    There is no Priest_Of_Santa who will (if one chooses to believe
    in Santa) tell you how you must live for the rest of your life.
    

    Re .0 (Lorenzo):
    
    >................. Being that its' "Christ-mas" you hear the majority
    >of people speaking of "Santa Claus": My question is, Why would people
    >rather their children to believe in Santa Claus and not God? ...
     
    One reason, my friend, is that Christmas has become _so_ secularized
    that the religious component has almost been completely squeezed
    out of it [joke:  Two people are walking down the street.  One spots
    a bumper sticker proclaiming "Put Christ in Christmas."  He points
    at it and says to his companion, "Those religious nuts will take
    advantage of any holiday ...."].  "Santa Claus"  is a corruption of
    "Saint Nicholas," (who in some early Christmas stories, Santa is
    referred to as) and it's much more comfortable for people to talk
    about that to their kids....
    
    Say "Christmas" as part of a word-association game, and many people
    will respond with "present."  The merchants see the Christmas season
    as a boost to sagging sales, and I've seen many places where the
    Jack O'Lanterns and other Hallowe'en paraphenalia being sold is
    partially displaced by early Christmas decorations [what happens
    to Thanksgiving?  Who knows?].  I've even seen one or two stores
    trying to promote a "Christmas in July" sale.  
    
    That is, Christmas, the day, has become so commercial that I'd be
    willing to re-dub it Saturnalias and move a commemeration of the
    birth of Our Savior to a more appropriate time, like Spring, when
    He probably was born.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    	When I was six and found out there was no Santa Claus I
    	was disillusioned and crushed beyond all words (I still 
    	remember the exact scenario and conversation with my Mom).
    
    	If, at six, I had been told there was no God, my only 
    	regret would have been "Well, no more Vacation Bible
    	School."
    
    					Carla
    

    
    Lorenzo -
    
    A couple of thoughts to give you my perspective on your question
    -
    I  don't believe that the parents who believe in the 'Christ' of
    Christmas are reluctant to talk to their kids about it being the
    celebration of the birth of Jesus.  In my opinion, the *media* and
    *advertising* people  are the ones who won't talk  about it - due,
    I believe, to the fact that our nation is a 'melting pot'
    and we Americans do not all believe in Christ (and yet it's a major
    national holiday), and, as Steve was saying, it's simply not
    commercially productive to talk about the spiritual aspect  of this
    lucrative holiday.   
    
    From my perspective, it's we,  the parents, who can influence our
    little ones the most to view Christmas in a religious way or a material
    way - and also our choice to  do so according  to whatever our beliefs
    about the holiday (or holy day) are.  Either way, the celebration
    stands for the peace and light which Jesus taught, and reminds us
    all to put aside -  at least for a small span of time - our prejuidices
    and celebrate together.   
    

    
    Lorenzo, I'm not one of those people you described in .0, so can't
    really answer your question directly - in fact I've often wondered
    about that myself.
    
    I believe that whether you are talking about Santa or God, that
    the spirit of Christmas is still one of love and peace, and plan
    on presenting this to my (future) children in this way.
    
    Now if we can only find a way to continue that same spirit throughout
    the rest of the year.......something I will also try to pass on
    to my (future) children.
    
    Peace,
    
    Cindy
                            

    re .0
    
    I actually doubt that many people would be upset over a simple

    statement "there is a god."

    However, we each have our own myth-representation of the universe
    and many people _do_ feel threatened when they are forced to justify
    their own belief system or acknowledge that there are other,       
    equally valid belief systems. These people would wish that their
    children did not ask questions, but rather blindly accept all that
    their parents tell them. Not everyone values an open mind.  
    
    That seems to me why many people have trouble with the concepts
    of god, notgod, ufos, crystals, channelling, u-name-it. When
    somebody fervently _believes_ that something is true/false,
    conflicting opinions are ego-threatening.

	Bruce
    

    I belive it is because Santa brings gifts and asks for nothing whereas
    God brings doubt and ask for you. Santa has a much easier sale to
    make. Keith

    I heard from someone who had been to Japan that he saw some Santas
    on crosses for sale in a gift shop.  It sounds like someone got
    a very mixed-up idea about Christmas and Jesus.
    
    Actually, I don't think very many people are upset over the statement
    "There is a God."  However, if someone tries to tell you "There is a
    God.  His name is Ubizmo.  Heathens who do not believe in him and follow
    his laws as revealed in the Book of Ubizmo you are going to live in an
    eternity of driving a Fiat and having only Spam to eat." you might get
    very upset if you believe in God differently than the Ubizmist if
    the Ubizmist is trying to tell you that Ubizmo is the only possibility.
    
    Elizabeth

	Now that you've brought it up, I see some similarities between 
    	God and Santa Claus.  "He's making a list, checking it twice, 
    	gonna find out who's naughty and nice..."  From the traditional 
    	viewpoint, both Santa and God require you to be *good* in order 
    	to benefit with the rewards of presents/heaven.  This is fine, 
    	since most of us strive to do and be our best.  But we all slip 
    	sometimes.  Does this mean we won't receive any presents?  Or 
    	we won't know heaven?

	In *my* viewpoint (and past/present experiences) Santa will 
    	still bring me presents even if I'm occasionally bad, and God 
    	will still love me even if I make a few mistakes.  I just need 
    	to readjust my halo (ahem) every now and then and try not to 
    	repeat my mistakes.
	
	The only "demand" I see made by either God or Santa has to do 
    	with leaving milk and cookies out on Christmas Eve...

    						Carla
    

    
    AAAAHHHHHHHH!
    
    Are......gak........carob substitutes and Ripple Wine there too????  
    (It was a very good week.)
    
    Maybe it should be renamed "Yuppie Hell".
    
    Gimmie chocolate.
    
    Cindy

    when thinking about the story of Jesus and how it was told every
    christmas at my church, I always giggled when there was no pause
    where there obviously should be one, in the phrase
    
    "And there they saw Joseph and Mary and the babe lying in a manger"
    
    the picture it brought to me was of a VERY crowded manger....
    
    -Jody
    

    Several people have expressed the belief that there are two
    "Christmasses": the religious/spiritual and the commercial.  In
    reality, I think, there are three: the religious/spiritual, the
    comercial and the secular/family-oriented holidays.  Santa Claus
    was originally a minor part of the first, became an important part
    of the last and was co-opted by the second when it grew out of the
    last.
    
    As the symbol of the family holiday -- a time set aside to appreciate
    family and friends and to express that appreciation (traditionally
    in the form of gifts, out of which grew the whole comercial version)
    -- people have little trouble with Santa Claus.  Children believe
    many fantastic things, which they grow out of, and unlike, say,
    Rambo, Santa Claus personifies virtues which few parents would feel
    uncomfortable with.  (Personally, I believe in making as much
    distinction between fact and fantasy, without denigrating the latter,
    as children are able to understand).
    
    People object to God being preached to their children because so
    much objectionable beliefs are associated with God.  Few would be
    uncomfortable with you telling their children that the God that
    the parents believe in is real, but their is a reasonable fear that
    you will tell them about some other God.
    
    In our religiously pluristic (even within the Christian religions)
    society, it is the responsibility of parents (and those whom parents
    have appointed to the task) to teach specific religious concepts
    to their children.  Anyone else who tries to preach religious concepts
    to children, *even MY religious beliefs*, should be horsewhipped.
    (This does not include teaching about other religions in a non-partisan
    way, though in practice the distinction may be at times hard to
    make.  Keeping children in ignorance of the world -- including or
    perhaps especially what other people believe -- is a particularly
    vicious form of child abuse).
    
    					Topher

    Well said Topher.

    The sad part about the Santa Claus "myth" are those children who
    live in poverty and to whom Santa doesn't visit.  Knowing who Santa
    is, and not getting a "visit" from Santa would make these children
    feel that they were bad and that was why they didn't get any gifts.
    
    I must say that I hadn't felt very "Christmasy" this year until
    reading Lorenzo's base note.  That reminded me of what Christmas
    is really all about.  We are, after all, celebrating a birthday.
    
    I intend to teach this to my son as soon as he is old enough to
    understand.  For now, Santa is fun for him and if I can get him
    to understand the concept that "Giving is better than receiving"
    then I will have accomplished as much as can be expected for a 4
    year old.
    
    Debbie

    Just a small nit here but December 25th isn't really the birthday
    of Christ is it?  Not that it matters... such a gift is well worth
    celebrating.

    
    I recently had an interesting discussion on this very topic with
    one of my sisters who is in the process of becoming a Jehovah Witness.
    The conversation began with her 'preaching' at me about 'how could
    I possibly celebrate Christmas', 'and did I know when Jesus was
    *really* born?', and 'why is it that people only tend to show love
    at this one particular time of the year?', and on and on.  I let
    her finish (until she ran out of breath), then it was my turn.
    
    (With a bit of a smile.....) I replied, "Yes, Jesus was born in
    the springtime, I celebrate Christmas because I choose to, and I
    try to be loving each and every day of my life and sometimes I even
    manage to succeed in this endeavor. That stopped her in her tracks.
    We then got down to the real discussion.                            
    
    We do like each other very much, by the way.
                                            
    I guess my feeling is that it isn't so much the celebration of the
    birth so much as it is the renewal of the spirit of Christmas and
    love.  Magical things tend to happen when the season comes about,
    and it is this kind of thing that helps me rekindle my own loving 
    energy for the coming year. 
    
    After telling this to my sister, she thought about it for a bit
    and came up with the idea of instead of emphasizing the 'receiving'
    of gifts and raising her children in that way, she would tell them
    more about the spirit of the holiday and have them go buy some gifts
    for people they knew who were less fortunate than they were.
    Apparently she talked with her son about it after that (he's 5), and 
    he thought it was a great idea, so that is what they are doing.
    She also explained to them that they are permitted to ask for anything
    they want throughout the year, provided that they will put it to
    good use and appreciate what it is they are given, and that went
    over quite well also.  By the way, her children already know about 
    Santa and that he really doesn't descend into the house through the 
    chimney - but that not everyone believes this is the case so they 
    should be respectful of others who do not necessarily share in this 
    belief.
          
    I admire her style.
                    
    Cindy        

    RE:  .16
    
    Debbie -
    
    I agree with your point about kids who  won't get to celebrate
    Christmas  like other more fortunate youngsters.  It's something
    which has bothered me so much this year - and I hope to be able
    to incorporate some  of  the ideas for teaching my own little ones
    to give to those other children at Christmas. Thanks for bringing
    up the point.
    
    
    RE:  12
    
    Cindy -
    
    Did you say *CHOCOLATE*????   Where  IS a Leviathan  when you need
    one?  ;')
    
    Merry Christmas
    
    Mary 

    re:  a  couple of you...
      
        I believe that one of the faults with some of our religious
    backgrounds is in teaching us that "To give is better than to receive."
    When you think about it, this particular "better than" can be 
    highly destructive. Who says so?  Receiving is at least as important
    as to give, for one cannot exist without the other.  As my friend
    Lazaris has suggested, we have much more difficulty in receiving
    love than we do in giving it.  Do you wonder why?  No doubt these
    misconceptions (though well-intentioned) are a good part of the
    reason.  No, we need to learn how to receive AND that we need to
    give, as well.  I recommend Lazaris' tapes on RECEIVING LOVE,
    LOVING, and BEING LOVED (audio tapes) as well as his video
    called UNCONDITIONAL LOVE for some of the best sense in this area
    that I have ever heard.  Some of you out there (me, too) really
    need to start to work harder to let go of some of our destructive
    past influences/patterns/teachings/beliefs.  Do it.
      
         As for Christmastime, forget that it's a birthday for someone
    who supposedly lived 20 centuries ago.  Just get into a POTENTIAL
    spirit that underlies the season and "go with its flow."  Take
    advantage of the love that is *supposed* to be there (anyway.)
    
    
         I'll skip relating my other thoughts around this matter.
      
     
     Frederick
    

    Re .20  
    
    Thank you Frederick.
    
    I agree with the sentiment - giving and receiving are equally
    important.  If there were no one who was able to accept your gift,
    you couldn't very well give.  To make the most out of the season,
    give as much as you want to or can, and accept everything given
    to you.  How many times have we gotten something for someone that
    we love, perhaps something very nice, to have the person say "I
    just can't accept this".  For example, giving a nice piece of jewelry
    to an older woman who has spent her lifetime giving - to her family,
    neighbors and friends.  She may feel totally unworthy of something
    that nice.  This can be quite frustrating to the giver, who feels
    this person is worthy of *anything* she can be given.
    
    The only major feature of "better to give than receive" is that
    as small children, we were very self centered.  It is useful in
    teaching children that it's not a one way street.  But as adults,
    we often take it too far, and go overboard the other direction.
    
    Elizabeth
                                                                   

RE: .20,.21
    
    Few people would find it difficult to receive if they could *just*
    receive.  The problem is the things that are hard to receive are
    things that require us to give in order to receive -- we must give
    our trust, for example.  I agree that "it is better to give than
    receive" is simplistic as stated; but simplistic slogans are part
    of learning.
    
    We have to teach people to give -- starting with the material and
    progressing to more intimate gifts -- for them to understand how
    to receive.  The danger is a form of martyr complex -- where giving
    becomes a diseased form of taking (diseased because even the taker
    gets little nourishment from it).
    
    				Topher

    WHY?  Well, because!

    To go back to .0, it seems to me that the only people who would
    tell their children that there's no God are atheists. Presumably,
    anyone who had whatever idea of a "god-figure" (if that makes sense)
    would certainly tell their children. Since Santa Claus can be either
    included as part of one's religious celebration, or as part of the
    secular celebration we are bombarded with, I don't see any conflict
    between the atheist and (the secular) Santa Claus.
    
    
    RE: giving/receiving
    
    I think children should be taught to give and receive with equal
    grace. Simply taking a gift and walking away, or going through an
    hour and a half of "I don't deserve this" can be as un-graceful
    as not giving a gift. [All of which is at *least* as annoying as
    someone with whom you ALWAYS have to argue over paying the check
    at lunch/dinner] 
    
    Not allowing someone to give you something with grace can be the
    ultimate way of saying "See, I'm actually *better* than you, because
    even though you're the giver, I can out-humble you any day"
    
    Balance in all things. Yin/Yang.
    
    Dawn
    

    
    WHY do some people feel the need to push their religious beliefs 
    onto others' children?
    
    WHY do too many people who consider themselves religious make the
    assumption that anyone who doesn't think like them must be sunk
    in materialism and/or depravity?
    
    WHY do people who knock on strangers' doors to tell them about God
    never wonder if maybe the person inside is already closer to God?
    
    

		Santa Of The Spirits

	Santa Clause is real, just as real as you or me
	Even little kids seem to know this
	This just proves how dumb adults can be
	Who knows how we miss the obvious

	Saint Nicholas was a good man, whose spirit still lives free
	Spirits can walk through walls or float down the chimney 
	That Santa is a spirit can be proved easily
	He's magical, and knows more than either you or me
	He leaves presents even where there is no chimney
	But the real proof is that children, who know, believe

	Santa's spirit can materialize, where love is strong
	If the cookies look good enough, they'll vanish 'ere he's gone
	He may leave behind a gift or two, the kind of gift you'll remember
	While fat old men with fake beards help him out each December
	
	Saints have some abilities and Santa's no exception
	He really can see if you've been bad or good 
	But don't worry, all you cynical adults,
        You may still have all those fat old men with fake beards fooled.

		Alan.

    Hello, all,
    
    In the Boston Globe today - "Calvin and Hobbes" comic strip:
    (for those of you unfamiliar with this particular comic strip- 
    Calvin is a little boy and Hobbes is his stuffed tiger...)
    
    Calvin: "This whole Santa Clause thing just doesn't make sense...
             Why all the secrecy? Why all the mystery? If the guy exists,
             why doesn't he ever show himself and prove it?...And if
    	     he *doesn't* exist, what's the meaning of all this?"
    
    Hobbes: "I dunno...Isn't this supposed to be a religious holiday?"
    
    Calvin: "Yeah, but actually, I've got the same questions about God..."
    
    
    			Happy Holidays,
    			   -Amy.
    

RE: .28

That got me to thinking about my own Santa experience.  I found out about
Santa Clause at age 7 (my parents deny telling me two days before Christmas,
but they did).  I was *extremely* let down; not so much because there was
no Santa, but because I had been mislead all those years with a lie...however
innocent.  In fact, for months afterward I began to question whether God
was just another Big Lie parents told their kids about to keep them in line.

To ease things a bit, my parents let me play Santa to my younger brother
by letting me leave his "Santa" gifts under the tree.  But all this did
was make me feel as though I were perpetrating the lie.

I think that if I ever have kids, I will tell them from the very start that
Santa is make-believe.  Santa will still come to the house, and the kids
can still pretend that he is real, full knowing that he isn't.  This way
they can have all the fun with none of the letdown.

John M.

    re: 29
    
    I have no concious memory of finding out that there was no Santa
    Clause. The way I figure it, there are two reasons why this is the
    case. Either it was not a traumatic discovery or it was *so* traumatic
    that I have blanked it out for all of these years. I tend to believe
    that the first reason is the case.
    
    I do, however, have a very strong memory of my mother's explanation
    of the whole Santa Clause myth. It is what I plan to tell my kids
    when/if I have them. She told me that while it is true that the
    actual, physical Santa (jolly old man with a white beard in a red suit,
    with a workshop at the North Pole, etc.) doesn't exist, the *spirit*
    of Santa does. It is the spirit of loving and giving, of helping
    others who are 'less fortunate', and of peace. This, she told me,
    is what Christmas is all about.
    
    This, to me, is also the main part of the religious message, not
    just during the holiday season, but all year round. 
    
    			Happy holidays,
    			   -Amy.
    

    Back to the original question:
    
    I don't want people telling my kids that there is no Santa Claus
    because that would deprive them of the joy of Christmas morning
    and deprive me of the joy of "assembling" all night before. It
    would also deprive me of the joy of eating the cookies and drinking
    the milk and chomping off a bit of Rudolph's carrot. I enjoyed Santa
    as a child and I enjoy him as a father. You'd better believe he
    exists.
    
    I don't really know what's behind your question. But I think the
    real answer is: It isn't your business to tell other people's kids
    that God or Santa does or does not exist. 
    
    - Larry

    Thats a good point Larry.  I guess that is what it comes down to_:-)
    

    Lorenzo, perhaps people realize that God is a discovery that each
    man/woman/child must make for himself...and that to try and tell
    someone who or what God is in anything other than broad, open to
    interpretation terms, is forming conceptions for the child, rather
    than allowing him to form his own.  How do you know that this child
    will not find God through Islam? Or Buddhism? Or quietly meditating
    one evening?  There is one God...and there are many, many paths
    to him.  Christ never meant to exlude 3/4 of the planet from salvation
    because they hadn't had an opportunity to hear him...the Christian
    assertion that theirs is the "only way" to God has been created
    by the Church, and was never preached by Christ.  Yes, I know the
    biblical quotes you are going for...if you wish to continue this
    off-line, please let's do it by mail.
    
    So...maybe people don't wish to have one particular dogma forced
    on their kid, but want to let him find his own path to God.
    
    Santa Claus is play...God is a serious subject to most people.
    
    Chill out.  The only person you can change is *you*. That's it.
    
    DW

    re:26
       Good quote.  I wonder how many Jethro Tull albums have been burned
    by groups of teen-age "born-again"s.  (I know, we haven't heard
    much about album-burnings lately, {which amazingly resemble sacrifices
    to pagan gods}, but I'm also thinking about the general "Moral
    Majority" / Christian / Congress wives' stance on rock music).
    
    re:31
       I agree.  Here's my take on the base question: People are not
    going to attempt to control my (future) kids' lives based on the
    idea of Santa Claus.  God however...  Furthermore, Santa embodies
    exactly what the Christian doctrine is trying to promote: giving
    to others with no reward to oneself (What does Santa get?  A bite
    to eat.).  God gave us Christ, according to the story.  Santa shows
    us again every year what selfless giving is about (kind of a reminder
    to those who have a problem remembering back 2000 years).  Santa
    isn't greedy for lifelong devotion in return.  He's an easy, safe
    vehicle for goodness that can be dismissed with a quick explanation.
    
    <FLAME ON>
    
    For my take on organized religion, see HYPOCRT::BAKKER, or Pat
    Robertson, the man who is totally devoted to God only as long as
    it doesn't interfere with his ambition to run the country.  Of course
    we know that he will run the U.S. from a church standpoint once
    in office, but he's not telling that just yet.  At least he can
    introduce his own "Pat-powered" SDI; with God's help, no missiles
    will get through :-)
    
    It is a violation of my personal freedoms for anyone to solicit
    religion door-to-door.  If I want spiritual cousel, I will go to
    a church, or a temple, or better yet I'll read the Bible or the
    Koran or whatever on my own.  I find this practice totally offensive.
    I plan to do something to revile the next one that comes to my door.
    
    I have as much evidence for Santa as I do for God, like the cartoon
    mentioned here says.  
    
    <FLAME OFF>
    
    Brian W. who_is_well_aware_that_he_will_get_bashed_for_his_flames

    
    Re.-1
    
    Well said!
    
    It seems then that only when 'Santa' and 'God' are twisted around
    and used as threats to children (and to even adults) that the real 
    meaning of the message is completely and totally lost (that being,
    of course, Love), and damage is done to all.  
                          
    Cindy

    
    Oh yes, anyone interested in participating in a discussion on
    Fundamentalism, see the REGENT::RELIGION conference notes 151 and
    152 (or thereabouts).

    Since the topic was started by yours truly, my only request is that 
    people refrain from flaming there.  It is hoped that the information 
    and discussions will be a learning experience for all involved.
    
    Cindy