Conference hydra::dejavu

    I have noticed that people who handle power best are those who want
    it least.
    
    I suspect that the reason for this is that the people who *want*
    the power are actually being controlled by their power, not controlling
    it.
    
    This applies to every kind of power I can think of.
    
    Elizabeth
    

>    I have noticed that people who handle power best are those who want
>    it least.
    
This may be, in part, due to the "spiritual" path that most people use
to obtain enlightenment.  When your life takes on a spiritual aspect, you
become less concerned with non-spiritual matters and tend to let the physical
world take care of itself.

I have a good friend who has been working for years at developing his power.
At first, he was obsessed by the idea... sort of "power for the sake of
power".  He felt his progress was too slow, and pushed himself into dangerous
areas for the sake of progress... and eventually got burnt fingers for his
efforts.  After a lot of prayer and a reconciliation with his God, he started
along the path again.  This time his motives were more pure, his progress
much faster.  He is achieving his goals and things seem to come to him 
naturally... and he seems much happier and more in balance.

>    I suspect that the reason for this is that the people who *want*
>    the power are actually being controlled by their power, not controlling
>    it.
    
"Wanting" power tends to imply an ego-based desire for something, and this
prevents the "ego-less" self required for the needed development.  Though
someone who has "talent" can be dangerous, it's usually a dark aspect of
their personality, rather than the power itself, that gains the upper hand
in the situation.  The power itself doesn't corrupt.

I've always felt, as was mentioned in a previous topic on magic, that the
"power" resides in all of us, some just have a "talent" for using it.  I
have a theory that "miracles" are nothing more than using that power aligned
with the True Will of your God.  Without that alignment, the miracle cannot
occur.

						-- Mike

    This question also has an interesting astrological side.  The planets
    in a horoscope that represent the side of us that is connected to
    the power of the Universe, God, etc., are Neptune and Pluto.
    
    Most astrological texts treat these planets as vague "generational"
    influences and dismiss them as having any "personal" impact.  However,
    they have been in a remarkably constant aspect relationship (the 
    sextile) since around the late 30's-early 40's which will last at
    least into the beginning years of the next century (have to check exact 
    dates on those).  The sextile is an aspect that supposedly fosters 
    awareness of how the energies within the Self, represented by the 
    two planets that are in aspect, can operate in a fairly harmonious 
    fashion.  It is an aspect that is purported to create awareness
    of talents on a mental level, helping generate ideas on how to 
    use the energies well.
    
    The principles that Neptune and Pluto represent are what I call
    the Transpersonal Self.  Neptune is the drive within us to expand
    until we become one with everything; it is often correlated with
    a person's spiritual urges.  Pluto is the drive within us to plumb
    the depths; it can be called seed energy of sorts, the ultimate 
    Source within us after everything else has been stripped away.  An 
    interesting potential dichotomy, when you think about it.  The 
    Neptunian urge seems to ultimately believe that the power of the 
    Universe/God resides Out There, while the Plutonian urge seems to 
    ultimately believe that The Power is Within Us.  Both attitudes
    have warred with each other throughout many great philosophical
    debates in history.  What I believe the continuing sextile aspect
    between them offers is the opportunity to demonstrate how these
    seemingly contradictory drives can be reconciled and used in harmony.
    A client once asked me, as I was talking about these planets in
    her chart, if people were more psychic than they used to be.  It
    was an interesting thought, and I wouldn't discount the impact on
    the sextile to have provided many people the opportunity to become
    aware of and be able to use subtle energies that were previously
    drowned out by mundane concerns when the planets were "not on speaking
    terms."
    
    In addition, my own personal observations reading people's charts
    have shown me that these two planets can have a great impact on 
    people, depending on how the sextile is situated in a person's 
    chart, or if the planets themselves (or their signs) are prominent.
    People with Sun or Moon in Pisces or Scorpio, Pisces or Scorpio 
    rising, or Neptune or Pluto conjunct a chart angle (especially 
    the Rising Degree) are just three examples of people who may be 
    more consciously aware of the extent of this struggle within themselves
    and more likely to manifest it directly in some way in their lives.
    
    The thing that interests me is that the feeling of discovering
    a breakthrough in one's search for power and the enlightenment to
    use it well, followed by the fear of being in over one's head, sounds
    very much like how people have told me they experience Neptune and
    Pluto energy.  If one planet is more prominent than the other, one
    mode of being may well feel more natural to a person at first; then,
    as transits activate the sextile the person begins to want to
    incorporate the other energy, followed by a period of disorientation
    as a familiar way of being tries to reconcile with the unfamiliar.
    
    Offering my own chart as an example, I have Pluto exactly conjunct
    my Rising Degree, in the sign Leo.  Despite the "slings and arrows"
    et al, I have never doubted that the power to develop spiritually
    and use my inner power is within me--the only question has been
    how to develop and use it in the best way possible (Neptune sits
    in Libra in my 3rd house of communications).  I have also been very
    quick to reject surrendering control of any of my belief system
    to another--I have never subscribed wholeheartedly to any church's,
    guru's or channelled entity's teachings.  The part of me that searches
    for the power of the spiritual wants to experience that first-hand,
    thank you, and will not take anyone else's word that it exists.
    This can make for a very lonely journey, I admit.  A close friend, 
    on the other hand, who has Pisces rising with Neptune in her 7th 
    House of relating in the sign Libra, is very dependent on finding 
    the right people to guide her spiritual journeys in life.  Pluto is 
    "hidden" in her chart in an intercepted sign (Leo) and she has had
    a difficult time becoming aware of and developing a trust in a feeling
    of her own power.  "But how did you _know_?" is her most frequent
    question to me when I describe my decisions and explorations to her 
    (both mundane and spiritual); "I just looked within," is my baffled
    answer.  She marvels that this is even possible.
    
    In addition to one's personal inclinations there is an added
    observation on my part:  that mundane society, as a whole, does
    not handle these energies well at all, and so most people are not
    given any kind of training that would make them feel comfortable
    in their search to express them.  The most common command for handling
    Pluto power is "Don't! Ever!"  The most common reaction to Neptunian 
    power is "There go those wimpy space-shots again, ha ha ha."  So
    it perhaps natural that when we embark on the Spiritual Power quest
    that we feel all at sea, without true guidance, uneasy.  The person
    averring that Spiritual Power is whithin him/her is frequently 
    burned at the stake (Wiccans?); the person desiring to merge with 
    the Great All is frequently crucified (Christians?).  Sad, isn't
    it?
    
    Marcia

RE: .1
    
    This idea goes back at least as far as Plato (and almost certainly
    much further).
    
    Plato believed in benevolent dictatorship, by "philosopher kings",
    as the best possible form of government.  One of the ways that he
    proposed identifying the proper ruler was that that would do everything
    in his (of course his!, this was Plato) power to avoid the
    responsability of rule.  The weakness of this is amply demonstrated
    in Shakespear's "Richard III" where Richard, after conniving for
    the rulership -- up to and including murder, presents himself to
    those who would make him ruler as bookish and having to be forced
    to accept control.  Once the concept of philosopher king is established
    it becomes to simple for an ambitious person to simulate the desired
    "purity of ego."
    
    				Topher

    	In the Arthur C. Clarke SF novel IMPERIAL EARTH, about life
    in the United States of America in the year 2276, Presidents are
    elected by computer, and there was (is, will be?) a popular phrase
    about this process that a good President is one who has to be dragged
    screaming and kicking into the White House to take responsibility.
    
    	Apparently Clarke read Plato!
                                 
    	Larry
                               

Thank you to the previous replies.  
    
More thoughts and comments...
    
I wonder if straying from knowing that one doesn't want to use one's 
power...to being curious and careless about using it...is just a natural 
part of the process for testing and determining one's limits?

It has seemed to me that I reach certain plateaus of feeling and
recognizing my level of personal power (over myself and the world
around me) and after feeling comfortable "there" for awhile (with no
desire to change things), I start sticking my toe out to test the 
waters and see if I can make ripples.  The ability to make ripples in
new ways becomes fascinating and exciting...until I'm at the point of
kicking my feet wildly, splashing water everywhere.  I "get into" the
experience while it's happening, and I don't feel that I hurt other
people, but I eventually come to the realization that I've made a real
mess for myself (not at all what I really wanted).  I feel it's 
curiosity, as well as, the lack of wisdom.  

While this is going on, however, I think I must find ways of confusing 
or tricking myself because many times, I'm totally shocked when I 
discover the mess I've got myself into...and the inappropriateness of 
my thinking.  I usually see myself as simply continuing down a good path.
It's not as if I'm consciously thinking about pushing my power...however, 
on some level of mind, I think I am.

"Waking up" is very sobering.  I go back to being comfortable and 
satisfied again, although I'm in a very different place.  This has made
me wonder if I'm obsessed with making quantum leaps...or if that's just
the way things work universally.  (I hope this is making sense.  It's 
hard to explain.)

I'm sure everyone abuses and test their power to different extents, in 
various forms in their lives.  I seem to do mine on a very personal 
level.  I'm not in charge of a country (thank God) so I don't affect the 
well-being of mass amounts of people by testing my power.  I don't even 
try to affect the people around me much (anymore) because I have a great 
respect for the awesome ability of one's power.  However, I do let it go 
wild sometimes internally...by trying to have power over my path, my 
every thought, my every feeling, my body, and using my power.  A little 
bit of power over those things is fine and natural (without much help).  
I think it's trying to have power over your power that gets you into 
trouble.

If balance is important to power, can you balance something if you don't 
know what your extremes are?  Additionally, I'm wondering if feeling "out 
of control" of onesself is necessary for the process of pursuing greater 
levels of "being in control" of onesself?  If so, is there a way it can 
be less painful...or does that naturally decrease or increase with time, 
experience, and wisdom?

I know these are loaded questions and that no one knows the answers.  But
I'd sure like to hear some good guesses based on other people's personal
experience. :^)

Jerri

    getting back to the original essence of .0 's topic, it probably
    would take a master to handle power adeptly without any negative
    repercussions. over the last X number of years I have been aligning
    my perception of reality with the description given by Carlos Castenada
    of the Yaqui Indian sorcerers, where obtaining personal power is a life
    long endeavor.  Of course, their description of reality is modified
    to fit this western society, but the basic premise is equivalent. I
    have experienced personal power, but I don't know if I have it,
    I don't understand it (and trying to seems to get in  the way).
    Accept it, yes, because i think if i didn't accept it, it wouldn't
    have made it's self available to me.  Handle it and control it?
    I think it is a fight between power and our ego to maintain control
    and use of each other.   This may be difficult to understand, and it's
    not totally clear in my mind.
    	One must be on guard, as aware as humanly( or inhumanly?) as
    possible at all times, Must act impeccably at all times and never
    forget that gathering personal power can only be accomplished by
    helping others accomplish storing this power.  Almost seems a
    dichotomy.  I definitly am still learning, and have too many positive
    experiences happen over the past several years- too many things
    that some might call coincidences or give other names to what's
    happening. Maybe I am approaching power exceedinglyu cautiously
    to ever get the feeling "of being over my head" or maybe it's
    because I attempt to remain as aware as possible at all times.
        I am just beginning to actuall take control of power.  It's
    very elusive and sometimes i think that power is letting me use
    it and this to me is the way it should be.
    	  If I go into this any more, It'll sound like I'm just
    paraphrasing Carlos Castenada's work.  It appears from the way
    your question's were phrased that you have experienced reading his
    works too. If not, The Yaqui Indian's quest to become a person
    of knowledge, is akin to what you seem to be trying to understand.
    I would be glad to take this off line to E-mail if you would 
    like.
    
                          
    	Life is great once you get the hang of it
               
    
    Ernie
    

    	I believe that the best way to handle power you are given, is
    to trust your unconscious.    The conscious mind can only do just
    so much, and when it tries to be the owner of non-conscious processes,
    problems result.

       	As an example:   Memory is largely an unconscious process, the
    conscious mind asks for a memory, but the unconscious will retrieve
    that memory in its own way, and only if it wants to.   Freud wrote
    some interesting things on analyzing the unconscious mind through
    observing gaps in memory.    the conscious mind cannot retrieve
    memories by demanding them, the best way is to assume a cooperative
    attitude with the unconscious mind.
    
    	Another example:   I used to work as a musician, and noted that
    my performance ability was linked to my mood.   I would psyche myself
    up for a performance, aiming for the highest possible emotional state
    for the performance.   But emotional mood is not always under
    conscious control.   To have power as a performer, I had to project
    the mood of my choice.    It is not enough to just know you should
    be in a good mood, you have to *feel* it.    The conscious mind
    has to learn to invoke the necessary mood by suggestions passed
    to the unconscious mind.   Learning to have power as a performer
    seems to promote unity of mind, and a closer cooperation between
    conscious and unconscious.

       	A sort of parallel situation seems to apply to political or
    social power.   The best leaders are those who have learned to
    properly delegate their power to others.   It is impossible to
    lead if you try to own all the power for yourself.   Followers
    do a better job if they are given power and responsibility.
    A boss who tries to keep track of all the activities of his/her
    people will eventually be entirely lost with the overload.
    
    	So, in conclusion, I think the best way to handle power of
    all kinds is to delegate it or give it away.   I delegate memory
    to my unconscious mind, I delegate guitar playing to my hands,
    I delegate work to my helpers, I delegate number crunching to the
    CPU.....   But the important thing is, that once I have delegated
    a task, I try to keep my conscious mind entirely off it.   You have
    to TRUST whoever/whatever you have delegated your power to, and
    not interfere with your unconscious/employee/helper/etc.
    
    	I remember reading somewhere that the conscious mind can only
    deal with 4 or 5 elements simultaneously (when you try to think
    of six elements, the mind resorts to subgrouping them as three
    groups of two, or two groups of three).   If you try to retain
    too much conscious control over your powers, you overload your
    mind's capacity.   You can learn to send tasks to your unconscious
    mind, and it is capable of monitoring many more simultaneous
    processes than the conscious mind is.

    Alan.

		Shaka Zulu wanted, in regards of his enchantment with white
men "the power of their knowledge, their magic". But he was warned by the
"witch"...-" Those who wish to be served by magic, frequently end becoming
slaves of it "-...and there is great truth to it.

		Power and magic; magic and power, they are related; closely
related. Magic becomes the ultimate manifestation of power, and sometimes
there is were the trap lies. When we develop power we begin to test its
"magic", but most of the time we overdo it.

		As power develops, so do the feeling of being invencibles.
And then we become more daring, fearless...and careless. Power overshadows
judgement because we lack knowledge, and when our acts of power "fail" we
become "obliterated by our own sense of failure and unworthiness" and then
power fades. The stronger the power, the more intense is the feeling.

		But power does not disapear; it just stops flowing until
knowledge to put it again in motion develops in the seeker. Knowledge derived
from our acts themselves.

		And this knowledge in its due time will give place to 
realizations which will sow the seeds of wisdom in the fertile soil of our
self.


				


				- " Pipe smokers, an endangered species"-
								
								- JSR -

Dear Jerri,

	I wanted to mention to you something on "balance".   You
seem to be worried about having to test all the extremes before you
can be balanced.   I don't think this is necessary at all.   In
engineering school, we were given some good info on stable systems,
as opposed to unstable systems.    For an example, imagine a marble
on a plane with hills and valleys.    A stable point would be a
bowl or valley.   At the very peak of a hill there is a point that
is a little stable, but not very.   You could balance the marble
there, but if it moved at all it would fall.   The stability of
the bowl is a higher order of stability.
	If you just let go and roll downhill, you find the stable
point with no effort.    You need not know what's on the other
side of the hill or at the top of the ridges, to remain stable
at that point.    Any baby has stability without needing to
test extremes.
	There is almost no limit to how far a person could go,
once a habit of testing extremes is developed.   I think such
a habit would tend to be quite painful in the long run.
	Taoism (an oriental religion) is modeled on the watercourse
way  (* see Tao, The Watercourse Way, by Alan Watts *), and describes
a Chinese model for living a stable balanced life.   The water
metaphor implies that the way to live balanced is to follow the
course life presents to you, without trying to flow uphill.   Obstacles
are gone around.   Depressions are filled in and surpassed.

				Alan Ackley