Conference hydra::dejavu

    Jaqcue Valle's MESSENGERS OF DECEPTION mentions Urantia.
    The texts of this group are said to have been dictated by a
    nonterrestrial source, and contain complex and confusing
    descriptions of alien cosmologies.
    
    Pat
    

    I started reading the Urantia book about 9 or 10 years ago.  I got
    about 300 pages into the book when I realized I was reading BULL.
    It was trying to tell be that God exists at a specific place and
    that it takes 100 years for gods messengers to get from him to 
    us.  I found most of what I read very hard to swallow.  Urantia
    is what the spirituals/extraterrestrials call Earth.
    

    Steve

    	The Urantia book was supposedly written by a Taxi driver from
    chicago, in the early part of this century (in the 1920's ?).
    	It is rather typical of the type of text generated by using
    "automatic writing".    Lots of current cults are using this material,
    or very similar material.    
    
    This book contains many attacks on free will, and if you swallow
    it, can be very dangerous material.   A careful reading will expose
    many inconsitencies and absurdities.
    	I am told that the "osaphe bible" is quite similar.
    
    Alan Ackley
    

    These two testimonials (.2 and .3) seem to mesh well with Jacque
    Vallee's assessment of the book -- i.e., that the material appeared
    to decorticate unwary believers by leading the mind into so many
    spins it finally fell over in a hypnotic daze.  He felt that some
    UFO contactee cult leaders were honest and had a vision -- not their
    vision, but somebody else's -- while others struck him as creeps.

    So, having not read it, I'd guess that this is just like anything
    else: listen to what the mysterious stranger tells you, if it seems
    useful, but beware of funny business.
    
    Pat
    

                         -< A Look at the U Book >-
    
         I've read the Urantia Book several times in the last 12 years,
    and continue to read it occasionally.  I am no more extreme about
    it's validity than any other path, religion, or philosophy that
    I have encountered.  I can only believe in things and ideas that
    I've experienced.  "Blind Faith" seems to be a mind poison to many
    people.   
    
         The Urantia Book purports to be no less than a gospel from
    "the other" intelligient beings in our universe.  It's a 2097-page
    answer to the overwhelming question:  Who are we and where do we
    come from?  For starters, our planet is called Urantia.  It's one
    of many similar planets that comprise the local universe of Nebadon.
    An exciting bit of information, eh?  You, me, the weirdo next door--
    we're all Urantians.  It is not a religion, nor a philosophy, but
    rather a technical manual, so to speak, of what IS.  
         
         There have been many events of religious revelation given to us, 
    but only five of epochal significance.  The Dalamatian teachings 
    (such as the Greek mythology we had to read in high school), The
    Edenic teachings (Adam & Eve were higher order beings), The Melchizedek
    teachings (the high priest mentioned in the Old Testament), The
    teachings of Jesus (he was and is the creator and Chief Executive
    Officer of this part of the universe), and finally The Urantia Book 
    teachings.   
    
         The book is split into four sections as follows:
              1. The Central and Superuniverses
              2. The Local Universe
              3. The History of Urantia
              4. The Life and Teachings of Jesus   
        
         At the Urantia Foundation in Chicago, where the book is published,
    members of the Society are incredibly tight-lipped.  They profess
    indifference to the book's origins.  They will give you courteous,
    but brief answers to your questions, and after some badgering, give
    you the name and address of local chapters in your area.  The local
    chapters are made up of a few (5 or 6) members who get together
    usually once a week or so, to read or discuss the Book.  They don't
    try to sell you anything--not even the book.  Something's definately
    wrong here!  
    
         A friend and I (who had read the book independently) did visit
    a small group in Worcester, and also a larger gathering in Conn-
    eticut.  For the most part, they were very warm interesting people.
    Only a couple of extremists.  
    
          From the information I've gotten, the Book is not a product of
    automatic writing, etc., but rather dictated by the "higher beings"
    themselves to a group of about 15 individuals between the years 1934
    to 1936.  These individuals include some rather well known psychol-
    ogists, doctors, and businessmen.  
    
          It's tempting to dismiss the whole thing as nonsense, of course.
    But nonsense is rarely so well-written, or so reasonable.  And seldom
    is it so interesting.  You really have to see this book to believe
    it.  Taking pieces of the book out of context as the previous repliers
    to this note did, is not fair to this book--or for that matter to
    any other book ever written.  I have never found any contradictions
    of any kind in the U Book, and futhermore, there are facts contained
    in it that WERE NOT KNOWN at the time it was written.  Either the
    Urantia Book is real or it's the best damn science fiction I have ever
    read, and deserves to be on the best seller list!
    
         You can order the Book through the Urantia Foundation ($32.00)
    or a group can usually get them for about $24.00, or you can wait
    a few months as they have been talking about reducing the price
    to around $15.00.  Beyond that, I have an extra copy that someone
    could borrow, or the Worcester Library has one--although they don't
    let you take it out because they tend to get stolen too often. 
    
         I hope this reply answers some of your questions.  I also hope
    that ya'll don't think I'm some form of vegetable.  
    
                                              Steve   

RE: .5
    
    Don't worry Steve, some of us may disagree with your evaluation
    but anyone who thinks that you are "some form of vegetable" is reading
    the wrong conference (although I don't know of any which would answer
    the question "How do I distinguish differences of opinion from
    differences in biological 'kingdoms'?" :-)
    
    Can you give us examples of things which were not know when the
    book was first published but which appears in it?  Could they
    reasonably be infered at the time?  Are these clear or open to
    interpretation?  Is there a way to be reasonably certain that there
    aren't any number of similar items which are now known to be false?
    What unambiguous statements are made the truth of which are likely
    to become known in the near future?
    
    Although I am skeptical, I mean this in the true sense of the word
    rather than as a pretty word for witch-hunter.  I believe firmly
    that there are sources of information available to us which are
    not normally acknowledged, and I am willing, even anxious, to be
    convinced that this book is wholly or in part the product of these
    sources.
    
    					Topher 

         Good-Day everyone.  I wish to make a statement concerning the
    present discussion of the Urantia Book.  
    
         I have been an avid reader of the U Book since 1970.  I desire
    not to stand on a soapbox and expound it's truth as though I were
    selling snakeoil and elixer.  In fact, I am downright shy of telling
    others what I have come to know of, for fear of giving the wrong
    impression of it or myself.  These times are indeed troubled on
    the subjects of faith and God, and I have little desire to plunge
    into that morass.
      
         As to the subject of Free Will, I do not find the book confusing.
     In fact, it only underscores what I have come to believe all along;
    Free Will is the greatest gift of God to Man.  It separates us from
    the animals and gives us eyes to seek a path to God.  Forgive me
    if I sound as if I am preaching, I am not.
    
         As to the matter of the first three-hundred pages being
    confusing--they certainly are to the uninitiated.  I advise all
    first time readers to begin at the third part of the book.
    
         Please, I wish not to foist this thing off as Gospel to anyone.
     One must not take oneself or one's beliefs *TOO* seriously.  If
    one wishes, just pretend it is a novel, fiction to entertain and
    enthrall.  Do not judge it or others that study it.  I only hope
    that you would enjoy it's story.
    
         Let me also give you the examples of things that were not known
    or accepted as fact at the time the book was written as follows:
    
         1. Continental Drift-accepted as fact in early 1970's.
    
         2. Multiple and long enduring Ice Ages-accepted as fact in
            early 1970's.
    
         3. Atomic Cohesion & Sub-Atomic Material-currently being revealed
            by present nuclear research.
    
         4. Star Birth & Formation of Solar System-constantly being
            revealed by new technologies and space exploration (please
            note current events on Halley's Comet, and recent Nova).
    
         5. Composition, Structuring, and other properties of our
            Sun-revealed by Skylab and subsequent observations in space
            and with new technologies.
    
    These are but a few examples open to your study.
    
         Again, I wish not to sway anyone's opinions or beliefs-
    materially, or spiritually-nor will I be swayed.  Just use your
    own eyes and keep an open mind.   
    
                                             Ron
    
     
    

Re .5
    
    I'm not accusing anybody of being a plant. ;^)
    
    The occult is strewn with documents dictated by beings variously
    described as angels, demons, extraterrestrials, and whatnot.
    There is much controversy regarding the origin of these documents.
    Nevertheless, some of them have had great impact on the recipients.
    
    It's very likely that interpreting a technical exposition as
    a source of spiritual truths leads to trouble.
    
    In any case, you have provided the most valuable response -- how
    to get to the book itself.
    
    Pat
    

    	All the examples you presented were considered - at least in
    THEORY - as fat back as the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries.
    
    	I find it quite conceivable that those who wrote Urantia could
    have taken these ideas and presented them as fact, hoping for the
    best, and eliminating the wrong ideas in later editions.  More proof
    is needed, such as ideas which were not even possible to theorize
    until, say, the last decade or so, and that these concepts were
    presented in the earliest editions of this work.
    
    	Larry
    

RE: .7
    
    This list is a good start, but we need more details to make any
    kind of judgement.  Just how specific were the statements which
    made these assertions.  A statement such as "the continents, driven
    by the currents stirred by the great heat below move hither and
    yon upon the surface -- now coliding -- now drawing away; leaving
    their striped tracks of magnetism upon the sea floor" would be most
    impressive; while a statement like "The earth shakes as its children
    crawl upon her belly" would be considerably less so.
    
    					Topher

    These detailed examples you request are available,but,are far too
    lenghty and numerous to give here. Again,the information and cost
    on the book has already been offered up to you.
    
                                             Ron
    

              I must echo the concern resulting in the statments made
    by Ron in the .7 reply.  Specific text is necessary for anyone to
    correctly evaluate the validity of these statements.  They are pretty
    specific though.
          
         I believe that there is a group of U book readers in
    Colorado that want to create an "electronic" version (These are
    the same people that have put together a Concordance to the book).
    They're having a problem with this at the moment because the Urantia 
    Foundation will not give them permission to use the copyright
    (Evidently, the "higher beings" that wrote the book gave specific
    instructions for it's dissemination, and a CRT version might not
    fit into "God's Will").  What's a mortal to do?  If I ever get a
    copy, it would be very useful--especially in situations like this.
     
         I've typed out a couple of things from the book, and although
    they do not cover the scientific aspects of "things that were not
    known at the time", I thought you might want to read one anyway.  
         
         When I get time, I'll type in some of the science stuff.
       
                                                 Steve           
                                            
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          The uncertainties of life and the vicissitudes of  existence
          do not in any manner contradict the concept of the universal
          sovereignty of God.  All evolutionary creature life is beset
          by certain inevitabilities.  Consider the following:

          1.  Is courage (strength of character) desirable?  Then must
          man be reared in an environment which necessitates grappling
          with hardships and reacting to disappointments.

          2.  Is altruism (service of one's fellows) desirable?   Then
          must  life experience provide for encountering situations of
          social inequality.

          3.  Is hope (the grandeur of trust) desirable?   Then  human
          existence  must  constantly  be confronted with insecurities
          and recurrent uncertainties.

          4.  Is  faith  (the  supreme  assertion  of  human  thought)
          desirable?   Then  must  the mind of man find itself in that
          troublesome predicament where it ever knows less than it can
          believe.

          5.  Is the love of truth and the willingness to go  wherever
          it leads, desirable?  Then must man grow up in a world where
          error is present and falsehood always possible.

          6.  Is idealism (the  approaching  concept  of  the  divine)
          desirable?   Then  must  man  struggle  in an environment of
          relative goodness and beauty,  surroundings  stimulative  of
          the irrepressible reach for better things.

          7.  Is loyalty (devotion to highest duty)  desirable?   Then
          must  man  carry  on  amid the possibilities of betrayal and
          desertion.  The valor of devotion to duty  consists  in  the
          implied danger of default.

          8.  Is unselfishness  (the  spirit  of  self-forgetfullness)
          desirable?   Then must mortal man live face to face with the
          incessant clamoring of an inescapable self  for  recognition
          and honor.  Man could not dynamically choose the divine life
          if there were no self-life to forsake.  Man could never  lay
          saving hold on righteousness if there were no potential evil
          to exalt and differentiate the good by contrast.

          9.  Is pleasure (the satisfaction of  happiness)  desirable?
          Then  must man live in a world where the alternative of pain
          and   the   likelihood   of   suffering   are   ever-present
          experiential possibilities.
    

     Here are some excerpts from the Urantia Book.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------    
    
                        The Supremacy of Religion

     "Personal, spiritual religious experience is an efficient solvent
for most mortal difficulties; it is a sorter, evaluator, and adjuster 
of all human problems.  Religion does not remove or destroy human 
troubles, but it does dissolve, absorb, illuminate, and transcend 
them.  True religion unifies the personality for effective adjustment
to all mortal requirements.  Religious faith-the positive leading of 
the indwelling divine presence-unfailingly enables the God-knowing
man to bridge that gulf.  Existing between the intellectual logic 
which recognizes the Universal First Cause as "it" and those positive 
affirmations of the soul whichever this First Cause is HE, the 
heavenly Father of Jesus' gospel, the personal God of human salvation.

     There are just three elements in universal reality:  fact, idea, 
and relation.  The religious consciousness identifies these realities
as science, philosophy, and truth.  Philosophy would be inclined to 
view these activities as reason, wisdom, and faith-physical reality, 
intellectual reality, and spiritual reality.  We are in the habit of 
designating these realities as thing, meaning, and value.  

     The progressive comprehension of reality is the equivalent of 
approaching God.  The finding of God, the consciousness of identity 
with reality, is the equivalent of the experiencing of self 
completion-self entirety, self totality.  The experiencing of total 
reality is the full realization of God, the finality of the God- 
knowing experience.

     The full summation of human life is the knowledge that man is 
educated by fact, ennobled by wisdom, and saved-justified by religious 
faith.

     Physical certainty consists in the logic of science; moral 
certainty, in the wisdom of philosophy; spiritual certainty in the 
truth of genuine religious experience.  

     The mind of man can attain high levels of spiritual insight and 
corresponding spheres of divinity of values because it is not wholly 
material. There is a spirit nucleus in the mind of man-the Adjuster of
divine presence.  There are three separate evidences of this spirit 
indwelling of the human mind:  

     1. Humanitarian fellowship-love.  The purely animal mind may be 
gregarious for self-protection, but only the spirit-indwelt intellect 
is unselfishly altruistic and unconditionally loving.

     2. Interpretation of the universe-wisdom.  Only the spirit- 
indwelt mind can comprehend that the universe is friendly to the 
individual. 

     3. Spiritual evaluation of life-worship.  Only the spirit-indwelt
man can realize the divine presence and seek to attain a fuller 
experience in and with this foretaste of divinity."
    

                             Discourse on Reality
    
         Personality is that cosmic endowment, that phase of universal 
    reality, which can coexist with unlimited change and at the same time 
    retain its identity in the very presence of all such changes, and 
    forever afterward.
    
         Life is an adaptation of the original cosmic causation to the 
    demands and possibilities of universe situations, and it comes into 
    being by the action of the Universal Mind and the activation of the 
    spirit spark of the God who is spirit.  The meaning of life is its 
    adaptability; the value of life is its progressability-even to the 
    heights of God-consciousness.
    
         Misadaptation of self-conscious life to the universe results in 
    cosmic disharmony.  Final divergence of personality will from the trend 
    of the universes terminates in intellectual isolation, personality 
    segregation.  Loss of the indwelling spirit pilot supervenes in 
    spiritual cessation of existence.  Intelligent and progressing life 
    becomes then, in and of itself, an incontrovertible proof of the 
    existence of a purposeful universe expressing the will of a divine 
    Creator.  And this life, in the aggregate, struggles toward higher 
    values, having for its final goal the Universal Father.
    
         Only in degree does man possess mind above the animal level aside 
    from the higher and quasi-spiritual ministrations of intellect.  
    Therefore animals (not having worship and wisdom) cannot experience 
    superconsciousness, consciousness of consciousness.  The animal mind 
    is only conscious of the objective universe.
    
         Knowledge is the sphere of the material or fact-discerning mind.  
    Truth is the domain of the spiritually endowed intellect that is 
    conscious of knowing God.  Knowledge is demonstrable; truth is 
    experienced.  Knowledge is a possession of the mind; truth an 
    experience of the soul, the progressing self.  Knowledge is a 
    function of the nonspiritual level; truth is a phase of the 
    mind-spirit level of the universes.  The eye of the material mind 
    perceives a world of factual knowledge; the eye of the spiritualized 
    intellect discerns a world of true values.  These two views, 
    synchronized and harmonized, reveal the world of reality, wherein 
    wisdom interprets the phenomena of the universe in terms of 
    progressive personal experience.
    
         Error (evil) is the penalty of imperfection.  The qualities of 
    imperfection or facts of misadaptation are disclosed on the material 
    level by critical observation and by scientific analysis; on the moral
    level, by human experience.  The presence of evil constitutes proof of
    the inaccuracies of mind and the immaturity of the evolving self.  
    Evil is, therefore, also a measure of imperfection in universe 
    interpretation.  The possibility of making mistakes is inherent in
    the acquisition of wisdom, the scheme of progressing from the partial 
    and temporal to the complete and eternal, from the relative and 
    imperfect to the final and perfected.  Error is the shadow of relative 
    incompleteness which must of necessity fall across man's ascending 
    universe path to Paradise perfection.  Error (evil) is not an actual 
    universe quality; it is simply the observation of a relativity in the 
    relatedness of the imperfection of the incomplete finite to the 
    ascending levels of the Supreme and Ultimate.

    I was given a copy of the Urantia book as a wedding present some
    years ago, and my first reaction was, "gee...that's nice".  I then
    put it on a shelf and ignored it for a year.  When I finally got
    around to reading it I found that the first 1/2 is very tough going,
    and I would recommend, like a previous noter, that the new reader
    begin with the second half.
    
    The thing which impressed me about the Urantia book is the ring
    of truth which permeates the book.  There is a detailed description
    of the history of the planet, and a very detailed chronology of
    the life of Christ.  The book also goes into a fairly length
    discussion of the afterlife, and the various stages which we must
    all pass through to achieve Paradise, which it asserts is a physical
    entity located at the heart of the physical universe.  After reading
    this book, and a number of books discussing the "life after death"
    phenomenon (experiences of persons who have been resuscitated from
    clinical death), I'm a firm believer in the idea that we are just
    at the beginning of an endless progression of increasingly spiritual
    lives.  While I'm enjoying this life very much, I'm rather looking forward
    to the next one, thanks to this book.
    

    re.15
    Dear NIMBUS::BACKUP, 
       Get in touch with me, soon.
                             Yours, Ron

KIRK:  "Uhurha, open all hailing frequencies for contact with 
        NIMBUS."

UHURHA:  "Yes Sir."

SPOCK:  "Captain, deep space sensor scan reveals only scant ionic 
         traces of NIMBUS in this sector.  I advise that we change 
         course and scan the adjacent sector where sensors indicate 
         that NIMBUS may have originated."

KIRK:  "No, Spock, to quietly wait here in the shadows until NIMBUS 
        shows herself.  I believe NIMBUS is using a cloaking device 
        to conceal her presence."

SPOCK:  "(Thinks to himself, Shadows?  In deep space?)."  "Captain,  
         why do you refer to NIMBUS as she?"

KIRK:  "Call it a hunch."  

SPOCK:  "Hunch...?"

KIRK:  "Human intuition Spock."

SPOCK:  "Indeed."

KIRK:  "Engineering!"

SCOTT:  "Aye Captain, Scott herrre."

KIRK:  "Scotty, we need more power for sensors to find and penetrate 
        the NIMBUS cloaking device."

SCOTT:  "But Captain, we gone sooo deeep inna spece that I dunna 
         think we can make it back, even with what powerrr we've 
         got."

KIRK:  "We need it now Scotty!"

SCOTT:  "Aye Captain.  (Says to himself "My poorrr antimatterrr 
         drrrive").

KIRK:  "Uhurha, open channels K and L for a message to NIMBUS."

UHURHA:  "Captain, the Klingons have broken the code for those 
          frequencies..."

KIRK:  "Do I need keep repeating myself?"

UHURHA:  "No Sir, channel's open."

KIRK:  "This is the USS Enterprise hailing NIMBUS::BACKUP - We come 
        in peace - there is no reason to hide - please respond." 

UHURHA:  "Captain, I believe there is something coming in on a lower 
          channel...., but I just can't make it out...."
    

<----cute

    That WAS cute.
    
    It seems this conversation took place a couple years ago.  I bought
    the book my self and have read only parts of it.  It seems rather
    intense to me.  But thanks to reading this conference I am going
    to begin once again.  I guess I become disenchanted with alot of
    this material - - I would prefer to read with an experienced group.
    
    thanks....to whomever
    
    
    joe p
    

    I have been reading the last part of the U book.  If I remember
    my initial reaction when I first read parts of the book...
    it is a little much to swallow.
    
    But really - is the bible validated just because it was written
    that long ago???  The section on the ubook on Jesus Christ reads
    like a novel...so that's how I am taking it...It'd be nice to really
    know what the truth is about Jesus of Naz - - or the UBook for that
    matter...
    
    who really knows....
    jp

    I've been reading thru the Urantia Book for, oh, about 17 years now. 
    I find the subtle similarities between the narratives of the Urantia
    Book with the other legends of ancient civilizations fascinating.
    If there ever was (or will be) an Encyclopedia Galactica - the Urantia
    Book is it.  Lately, well the last 15 years or so, I've been working up
    a cross-reference between Urantia history and the aforementioned
    legends.  The results are most interesting - finally getting a "real"
    view of the history of this planet, such that you can see where all the
    current beliefs stem from.
    
    The psychic correlations are particularly interesting.  Now I'm finally
    realizing how NORMAL the paranormal is (UFO's included).  Much easier
    to deal with now.  :-)
    
    RE .9 - Larry, sorry the reply is 3 years late, but I just discovered
    this conference tonight:
    
>    	I find it quite conceivable that those who wrote Urantia could
>    have taken these ideas and presented them as fact, hoping for the
>    best, and eliminating the wrong ideas in later editions.  More proof
>    is needed, such as ideas which were not even possible to theorize
>    until, say, the last decade or so, and that these concepts were
>    presented in the earliest editions of this work.
    
    The Urantia book was written in 1934, and published in 1955.  There is
    only ONE edition of the Urantia Book - the first printing of 1955 is
    IDENTICAL (word for word) to the current publishing.  Personally, I
    have the 4th printing of 1973.  The Urantia Foundation is very
    persistant about keeping the contents unchanged.  Rather difficult to
    eliminate "wrong ideas" when there are no further editions to take them
    out of.  Now, more proof - how about things we haven't run into YET?
    
    -	Regarding gravity-tidal friction of the planets:  (page 657)
    
    "When the tidal frictions of the moon and the earth become equalized,
    the earth will always turn the same hemisphere toward the moon, and the
    day and month will be analogous--in length about forty-seven days.  When
    such stability of orbits is attained, tidal frictions will go into
    reverse action, no longer driving the moon farther away from the earth
    but gradually drawing the satellite toward the planet.  And then, in
    that far-distant future when the moon approaches to within about eleven
    thousand miles of the earth, the gravity action of the latter will
    cause the moon to disrupt, and this tidal-gravity explosion will
    shatter the moon into small particles, which may assemble about the
    world as rings of matter resembling those of Saturn or may be gradually
    drawn into the earth as meteors."
    
    -	13 planets in our system (asteroid belt was still a planet at the
    	time frame of this narrative - 4.5 Billion BC):
    
    "The five inner and five outer planets soon formed in miniature from
    the cooling and condensing nucleuses in the less massive and tapering
    ends of the gigantic gravity bulge which Angona [another solar system
    passing close by] had succeeded in detaching from the sun, while Saturn
    and Jupiter were formed from the more massive and bulging central
    portions."  [ Mercury, Venus, Earth, Moon (considered "dual" planets),
    Mars, Asteroid belt planet, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune ]
    "... and while Angona was yet int he vicinity of the sun, three of the
    major planets of the Angona system swung so near to the massive solar
    system ancestor that its gravitational pull, augmented by that of the
    sun, was sufficient to overbalance the gravity grasp of Angona and to
    permanently detach these three tributaries of the celestial wanderer."
    "The planets do not swing around the sun in the equatorial plane of
    their solar mother, ... Rather, they travel in the plane of the Angona
    solar extrusion, which existed at a considerable angle to the plane of
    the sun's equator"  [ Pluto, (theorized), (unknown) ]
    
    Now, all we have to do is wait.
    
    Bruce

    The interesting thing about the description of the origins of the solar
    system (see .-1) is that it explains two facts which have not been
    explained by the conventional theory of planet evolution:
    
    1.  The fact that the planets revolve around the sun at an angle to the
    solar equator, which would not be expected if they were simply cast off
    by centrifical force.
    
    2.  The fact that the gas giants (esp. Jupiter) give off more energy
    than they receive from solar radiation.  If the Urantia book is correct
    then these planets actually contain material from the heart of the sun.
    
    					Back after all these years!
    
    					Bob Craig
    					aka NIMBUS::BACKUP in a prev. life
    

RE: .22 (Bob Craig)

    Sorry Bob, although the explanation for these two facts are not obvious
    from the conventional theories, they are thoroughly explained -- to the
    extent that if this were *not* the case the theories would be
    considered proven incorrect.  (Of course, that the theories manage to
    account for facts does not mean that they are true -- only that the
    facts do not disprove the theories or force revision in them).

    1.  The original disk of material was not infinitely thin.  Therefore
    the "planetesimals" were not all in exactly the same plane.  They
    therefore "interacted" with each other (gravitationally and in
    collisions) off-center creating a distribution of "latitudes".
    Simulations of the process show good agreement with the general
    distribution of the displacement of the planets from the "pure"
    ecliptic.

    2.  There are three significant "internal" sources of heat in planets
    and satelites.  a) Gravitational compression -- as a planet is
    compressed heat is generated.  In effect the potential energy induced
    by the gravitational field is converted to heat as the mass moves
    inward.  This is the major source of energy in the gas giants, and is
    a measurable part of the Earth's energy budget. b) Tidal heating --
    as tides caused by planets, satelites and the sun stretch and compress
    the planetary/satelite heat is generated.  This is the same effect as
    heating up coat-hanger wire by repeatedly bending it.  Some of the
    satelites of the gas giants are kept quite "hot" (relative to their
    "expected" temperature from solar input) by this mechanism.  It has
    little effect on the gas giants, as far as I remember.  c) Radioactive
    decay -- the energy from the decay of naturally occuring radioactive
    substances mostly gets converted to heat.  This is a major source of
    non-solar heat energy for the Earth.  It amounts to several degrees
    C of our global average temperature -- about the same size as the
    predicted greenhouse effect.  Its the major contributor to things
    getting hotter as you go deeper into the Earth, and why the center
    is molten (all that rock is a very good insulator, and the heat is
    trapped, only making its way out very slowly).

    These sources give a pretty good estimate of the energy output of the
    gas giants -- though there are arguments about why "so much" appears
    as radio waves and why "so much" appears as infrared, etc.

				    Topher

    
      Ahhh..the long searched for note on Urantia....having first been
    exposed to Urantia in 1974 I have long wanted the background information
    exposed in the early notes here.....I once tryed to contact the Foundation
    and they were "Tight lipped" to say the least.....no reply. At the time
    I learned of the book..and I beleive since...word of mouth has been the
    sole "advertising medium" of the book.
    
      I have to agree with the statements around the books apparent knowledge
    of theory which was not widely accepted until recently....without the
    qoutes there were several area's which I found very convincing..these
    included...
    
       Continental Drift
       Dinosaur/Bird evolution
       Spontaneous mutation vs long term evolution thru trial and error.
       Lemur descendants from a common gene (LUCY theory)..
    
       and others....
    
       Thank you for the insight....
    
       E
    

    
       I'm still around. Out of curiosity I look in here after four years
    to find replies years apart.  As with aka BACKUP::NIMBUS.  Bob, you
    gotta stop using subspace communications - takes too damn long.  Ah
    well, I always believed time was an illusion.
    
       As a postscript to this topic:  Four years ago I personally bought
    two cases (12 books each) of Urantia and gave them out to those whom
    expressed interest in the book or in unusual things such as this book.
    Gave several out to individuals in this conference.  Funny thing - I
    never recieved feedback personally or heard any comment of the book in
    this conference from those individuals. Very strange.

    
    Hi Ron,
    
    I received one of the books from you and Steve, and *did* thank 
    you both for it ;^)!  I have read very little of the book since
    then, so it sits on the bookshelf awaiting the time when it will
    be appropriate for me to read it.  That's the way I always approach
    books and it never fails me.
    
    Hoping all is well with you.
    
    Carole
    
    P.S.  I'm still amazed that you and Steve bought all those books
          and gave them away!

    
    Hi Ron,
    
    Welcome back!  It's been a while since I've opened my copy, however it
    was within the last year.  My experiences are the same as Carole's.
    
    Cindy

    
       " And the moron of the week award goes to..."
    
        Yes Carole, you did thank me and Steve.  I looked nearly 3500
    mail messages ago (someday I clean that up) to find yours and Cindy's
    thank-you's.  Moron indeed.....
    
        Though I'm virtually unseen in notes now, I've noticed the two
    of you.  The both of you might browse through the U-Book alittle.
    I believe it was you, Carole, that once raised a few questions on
    Adam and Eve and what happens after one's death in another conference.
    Take a look in the book in the section of The History of Urantia.  Then
    look into the chapters on the Mansion Worlds.   I cannot quote the
    chapters for alas, I've also given away my two books.   Well, at least
    I'm not a cheap moron!
    
                                               Ron     

    
    It's nice to see you in notes again Ron!  Thanks for the pointer
    on the Adam and Eve, etc. material in Urantia - I'll have to take
    a look at it.
    
    From your node name, I gather you are in Shrewsbury.  So am I!  If
    you ever want to stop by and say hello, I'm in SHR1-3, pole P2.
    
    Take care,
    Carole

    Hi Ron,
    
    I remember reading the info you sent me but it was so long ago I don't
    remember much about it.  I'm in the process of moving to another
    location, in the process, I'm sure I'll find it and will re read
    it.  I'll try to remember to post thoughts, etc. in this notes file.
    (Although it usually takes some time to recover from an internal
    office move!)
    
    Glad you're still around, with the current downsizing you never know!
    
    Mary
    

    Why I Both Like and Dislike the Urantia Book:

    I like it because it kinda reads like science fiction.

    I dislike it because it was obviously written by a bureaucrat.  For
    example, here's a definition of the Supreme Being:

    pg 11

    "The Supreme Being is not a direct creator, except that he is the
    father of Majeston, but he is a synthetic co-ordinator of all
    creature-Creator universe activities.  The Supreme Being, now
    actualizing in the evolutionary universes, is the Deity correlator and
    synthesizer of time-space divinity, of triune Paradise Deity in
    experiential association with the Supreme Creators of time and space."


    The book is filled with stuff like this.  Here's a sample section on
    Technical Advisors:

    pg 279

    "4.  Technical Advisers -- These legal and technical minds of the
    spirit world were not created as such.  From the early supernaphim and
    omniaphim, one million of the most orderly minds were chosen by the
    Infinite Spirit as the nucleus of this vast and versatile group.  And
    ever since that far-distant time, actual experience in the application
    of the laws of perfection of the plans of evolutionary creation has
    been required of all who aspire to become Technical Advisers.

    The Technical Advisers are recruited from the ranks of the following
    personality orders:

    	1.  The Supernaphim.
    	2.  The Seconaphim.
    	3.  The Tertiaphim.
    	4.  The Omniaphim.
    	5.  The Seraphim.
    	6.  Certain Types of Ascending Mortals.
    	7.  Certain Types of Ascending Midwayers.

    At the present time, not counting the mortals and midwayers who are all
    of transient attachment, the number of Technical Advisers registered on
    Uversa and operating in Orvonton is slightly in excess of sixty-one
    trillion.

    Technical Advisors frequently function as individuals but are organized
    for service and maintain common headquarters on the spheres of
    assignment in groups of seven.  In each group at least five must be of
    permanent status, while two may be of temporary association.  Ascending
    mortals and ascending midway creatures serve on these advisory
    commissions while pursuing the Paradise ascent, but they do not enter
    the regular courses of training for Technical Advisers, nor do they
    ever become permanent members of the order."

    --------
    Uggh.

    If the ascension path is this bureaucratic, I prefer to remain
    unascended.


    Ruth