Conference hydra::dejavu

Of course, I believe in miracles ... but then, I believe in  almost  everything.
Seriously,  I  believe  that  the  word  "miracles"  means "something that is so
improbable that it may be considered to  be  impossible  ...  yet  it  happens."
Therefore, miracles occur because our statistics are lousy.  The Universe itself
is a miracle.  Ask Albert Einstein the next time you talk to him.

Terry

    There are historical and nonBiblical examples of miracles.  I refer
    people particularly to the worksd of Appolonius of Tyana, who lived
    contemporarily with Jesus.  His works included clairvoyance,
    precognition, and even an apparent resurrection.
                     
    Likewise, Friar Bacon, Agrippa, and Alburtis also were supposed
    to have produced one or two, though nothing quite that spectacular.
    
    However, the critical question is, what constitutes a miracle. 
    I suspect it's the application of laws most of us don't understand
    yet.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    Yes, I believe in miracles.  I just saw one two weeks ago.  I witnessed
    my daughter's birth.  It's a pretty miraculous event.  I also believe
    in more bizarre miracles, I just haven't seen them yet.  I'll keep
    looking though.
    
    		Dave

I think the concept of miracles is based on your state of mind...I guess 
just like the concept of anything.

What some people think are miracles, might not be to others.  For 
instance, to me, having an out-of-body experience would seem miraculous, 
but to an experienced yogi it might be just a good way to get around!

I know that when my husband and I were first hanging out together, we
had intense esp experiences on a daily basis.  At first, it seemed
somewhat miraculous and a little unnerving, but after awhile we accepted
it and were surprised when it didn't happen a lot.

There are things that many of us could agree on as being miracles, but 
that is, of course, based on our present perspective on this plane of
existence.  When we change our perspective (which is good to do quite
often), our idea of "a miracle" can change drastically.  We might see 
FEW things as one...or ALL things as one.  So many ways to look at it.  

I don't know if this is "off track" of the original note...but it was 
thought-provoking and I enjoyed it.  I think there are a lot of 
miraculous things that happen all the time.  But I think there's a lot 
less magic and coincidence involved, than guidance and wisdom from our 
own inner minds.

Jerri

> < Note 195.6 by ORION::HERBERT >
>                           -< Different perspectives >-
> 
> I think the concept of miracles is based on your state of mind...I guess 
> just like the concept of anything.
> 
> What some people think are miracles, might not be to others.  For 
> instance, to me, having an out-of-body experience would seem miraculous, 
> but to an experienced yogi it might be just a good way to get around!

There is an interesting example of this in "Illusions" by Richard Bach. He
(Bach) is flying around with this messiah named Don Shimodah (sp?) and they
land in this "small" field to give rides to the towns-people (this is how
they make their living). But Richard is flying a much smaller airplane than
Shimodah and Shimodah's plane shouldn't be able to land in that field! Yet
Don flies all day in and out of the field. Richard is bothered by it but
the people he flies never even notice! So what seems a miracle to Richard is
simply "the way things are" to the towns-people. So, a miracle (to me) means
something that happens that "should" be impossible (by the current
understanding of the observer). Since Richard "knew" Don's plane shouldn't be
able to land in only 100 feet, it was a miracle. To the towns-people, nothing
out of the ordinary...

To someone 100 years ago, just about everything we do in a normal day would
seem miraclous...

DDA

    Course in Miracles calls a miracle a change in energy 
    
    --Tim

    Yes, I do believe in miracles.  I also believe that they happen
    in all different ways.  The most important aspect, to me, of a
    miracle is "the timing" of it.  That's what makes it a miracle.
    The same thing happening at a different time may not even come
    to your attention - when it happens at an important moment is 
    when it really hits you.
    
    One example of a miracle in my life was my buying my house.  
    My ex and I sold our house and as you know there is a time limit
    on capital gains reinvestment (for tax purposes).  This was at
    the time ('81) when the real estate market was at its
    bottom and the interest rates were very high.  This was all
    the money I had and I didn't want to lose any of it to taxes.
    I looked for a house for the longest time.  All the real estate
    agents told me I didn't make enough money to qualify for a
    mortgate.  What I kept in my mind was the picture of a little
    2 bedroom house somewhere with a yard - that's all I wanted.
    Well, I found the perfect little 2 bedroom house with a yard,
    just when the interest rates were falling and before the prices
    went totally crazy but the amazing part was that we closed the deal 
    almost to the day of the capital gains time period expiration.
    
    
    A miracle does not necessarily have to be "a supernatural occurrence".
    Also, if we pray for something, we should be careful what we ask
    for because the answer may come in a totally unexpected way.  Also,
    instead of getting what we want, we are often blessed by being given
    what we need instead.
    
    Another miracle in my life was a little kitten called Sam....we
    both needed each other at the same time....
    
    Maybe I'll be able to talk about that little guy sometime without
    tears in my eyes and a lump in my throat.
    
    Carole
    
    

As has already been mentioned the word "miracle" can mean many things.
I'll take it in the strongest sense possible. 

I believe in a single Miracle -- the existence of the Universe in all
of its incomprehensible beauty, complexity, simplicity and veiled
lawfulness. 

All other seeming miracles are but pale, insignificant reflections of
that single Miracle. 

To me both those who look for "special" miracles and those who seek to
"explain away" facts which do not fit their preconceptions are
making the same error.  They are failing to take into account the
no-superlatives-adequate richness of the Universe.  (Please, no flames
-- this is my gut-level, emotional response;  I would not even
describe it as an opinion -- it is how I feel and it in no way is
meant to denigrate those who feel differently). 

The Miracle is something outside of time.  Time is an artifact of our
limited perception of the lawfulness of the Universal Miracle. The
Miracle is there for all time, and for all non-time as well. 

Note that I spoke of the "existence" of the Universe rather than its
creation.  Creation is an event in time and the Miracle is outside of
time. The Universe I speak of is much greater than that part of it
which we can, even in principle, perceive and conceive and which can
meaningfully said to have perhaps been created.  I do not think that
there was a specific time at which God performed a Miracle and created
the Universe.  Creation was simply a consequence of the Miracle.

When I see a spider's web, or hear a child's laughter, or have a
prayer answered, or whatever, and say "how miraculous", then what I
mean is that I have had a small glimpse of the reality of the single
Universal Miracle.

		Topher

    Agreed.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr
    

    re .10
    
    And it's a blessing that we are given those glimpses and are open
    enough to be touched by them.  
    
    C.

    
    
    Re .10
    
    Well said Topher.  I would add: the magnificance of 'existance' is
    that it expands - and as we reach evermore to understand then our 
    'existance' becomes greater ...... and  unfolds.
    
    Lora 

    Beautifully said.

    
    
    re .10 
    
    
    Topher, I liked your reference to the "veiled lawfulnes" within
    the Universe.  Care to comment further?
    
    
    Lora

	Image -- The High Priestess from the Rider Tarot deck:
	    A cloaked figure sits between two columns.  She holds
	    a scroll labeled "Torah" (Hebrew for The Law) except that one
	    end of the scroll, including the letter H, is covered
	    by her cloak.


    I believe that the Universe is ultimately and fundamentally lawful.
    In a very real sense the Universe *is* the Law.  The Universe
    is/exists because it is lawful.

    This lawfulness (the Universe itself), however, cannot be perceived/
    known/understood directly.

    A consequence of this fundamental and indivisible lawfulness is that
    there are ways of separating out pieces of the whole, in such a way
    that the pieces have consistent relationships to each other.  No such
    division is "real", however -- all such divisions will be incomplete
    and, ultimately contain error.

    One such arbitrary division has an interesting property: some of the
    pieces which are separate according to that division have "learned"
    (through a "process" called "evolution") to "understand" the Universe
    indirectly by making that arbitrary division of the Universe.  One of
    the tricks which has been learned relatively recently (at least around
    here) is to refine the understanding by a quicker form of learning
    (which we simply call "learning").

    We are, however, limited in our understanding in several fundamental
    ways.  We can only perceive the law through process of exclusion and
    division, neither of which can be done without introducing errors.
    And even when that has been done, the process of learning the
    consequences of a particular division of the Universe is intrinsically
    one of successive approximation -- we can approach but not reach the
    truth, and even if we could, we still would not be at the Truth.

    I think that all of this applies equally to the seemingly direct
    perception of the Universe embodied in the basic mystic experience.
    I do not dismiss that kind of experience lightly.  Nor do I say
    that it is incorrect.  But it does have its own limitations which
    it is difficult to perceive from within itself, and these limitations
    become more severe as an attempt is made to translate its insights
    into the consensus reality orientation.
    
    Ultimately, the Universal law, says that we are limited, and those
    limitations draws a veil between us and the Law.

    <<Whew -- that was probably completely incomprehensible -- the words
    don't seem to exist to say what I am trying to say>>

		    Topher

    Re .16:
    
    Within the areas of Tarotology, there was an interesting essay by
    P. D. Ouspensky that, in the light of Topher's response, is worth
    extracting from:
                             *****       *****
    
                            THE HIGH PRIESTESS
    
      When I lifted the veil and entered the outer court of the Temple
    of Initiation, I saw in half darkness the figure of a woman sityting
    on a high throne between two pillars of the temple, one white and
    one black.  Mystery emanated from her and was about her.  Sacred
    symbols shone on her green dress; on her head was a golden tiara
    surmounted by a two-horned moon; on her knees she held two crossed
    keys and an open book.  Between the two pillars behind the woman
    hung another veil all embroidered with green leaves and fruit of
    pomegranite.
      And a voice said:
      "To enter the Temple one must lift the second veil and pass between
    the two pillars.  And to pass thus, one must obtain possession of
    the keys, read the book, and understand the symbols.  Are you ready
    to do this?"
      "I would like to be able," I said.
      The woman turned her face to me and looked into my eyes without
    speaking.  And through me passed a thrill, mysterious and penetrating
    like a golden wave; tones vibrated in my brain, a flame was in my
    heart, and I understood she spoke to me, saying without words:
      "This is the Hall of Wisdom.  No one can reveal it, no one can
    hide it.  Like a flower, it must grow and bloom in thy soul.  If
    thou wouldst plant the seed of this flower in thy soul -- _learn
    to discern the real from the false.  Listen only to the Voice that
    is soundless... Look only on that which is invisible,_ and remember
    that in thee thyself, is the Temple and the gate to it, and
    the mystery, and the initiation."
                                 *****                         
       
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    I rather doubt, Topher, that we are limited in any sense that the
    word carries in rationalized use.
    
    It's neither a comfort nor a limitation to think so. It's merely
    syntactic. 
    
    - Boleslaw

    Re .18:
    
    "There is no such thing as absolute freedom.  If you think so, try
    to chew a radio wave."
    
                               -- Kelvin Throop III
    

RE: .18
    
    Please explain.  To claim that you have *no* limits is to claim
    that you have achieved *in practice* the absolute, hyperuniversal,
    metalogical omnicience and omnipotence of the ultimate godhead.
    Please, make 2+2 equal to 5 for me.  If you can not then you have
    limits.  If claim to be able to but not to wish to, then I'm afraid
    I'll have to doubt your word.  If you claim to be able to but only if you
    wish to hard enough then this is also a limit -- one of strenght
    of will.  In any case, you (and I at least as much so) are limited.
    
    					Topher

                                                                    
    Just a guess - .18 did not claim to 'not have any limits', rather he
    did not 'perceive any limits' (excluding those restrictions put
    upon us by the physical limitations in the laws of nature itself).
    
    When one 'perceives limits', then this, more often than not, 
    becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.                    
    
    For example, if I'm taking a course and believe that highest grade
    I can possibly earn is a 'B' grade, then I become limited by my own 
    'perceived limit', therefore the possibility does not exist in my
    mind that I will ever earn an 'A' grade - and therefore probably 
    never will.  However, if I believe that I can achieve perfection,
    then chances are very good that I will earn an 'A' grade.  
    
    The true limitation in the example above is perfection (ie. I cannot 
    ever earn more than an 'A' grade, because that is a limit in and 
    of itself.).  Doesn't mean that I stop trying to achieve perfection, 
    however, which in this case is a perfect 'A'.
    
    Problem in spiritual growth though, is that there are so many
    definitions for 'A', that who is to say that my definition is more
    correct than your definition.  The nice thing about this though
    is that we may all agree that perfection is the end goal and upper 
    limit and that those who are on the path to spiritual growth are 
    all striving for exactly that.  Just because the chances of
    achieving perfection are slim doesn't mean we can't try.  And it
    seems like the majority of people (if not everyone) participating 
    in this conference is trying to do just that.
    
    Sort of like saying that "The sky is the limit."
                                    
    Hope this makes sense.
    
    Besides, 2+2=5 for very large values of 2.....  (:^)
             
    Cindy
                           
    P.S. - On the original topic, yes, I do believe in miracles.
           They happen every day, and with grace we can see them
           taking place before us with our own eyes.

    I hope none of us are ever going to be satisfied with an 'A', but
    try for an a+ or better.
    
    If you reach your goals then you probably haven't set them high
    enough.  You should always be trying to reach the next peak, in
    all facets of life.
    
    Yes miracles do happen, but is it the correct word.  I sometimes
    use the term lucky and my friend almost clips my ear, saying I don't
    believe in luck.  Think about it, with positive thinking I must
    agree.
    
    In my opinion, when you are positive 99% of the time things start
    happening for you.  The 1% is when we need to take the half a step
    back to breathe, look around us and keep trudging forward.  To me
    this just means we take half a step back for every five we take
    forward, instead of 2 steps back for every one we take forward.
    
    The half a step back also allows us to hear the answers we ask for!!
    
    ...dale