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Conference hydra::dejavu

Title:Psychic Phenomena
Notice:Please read note 1.0-1.* before writing
Moderator:JARETH::PAINTER
Created:Wed Jan 22 1986
Last Modified:Tue May 27 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:2143
Total number of notes:41773

189.0. "Which reality is REAL" by JAKE::KARWAN () Mon Aug 11 1986 17:44

I understand that quantum mechanics postulates (should I have said tolerates?),
many realities: each supposedly correct and complete.

Any one out there who is into physics know if any of this has been proven or
disproven?

Rav.
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189.1Interpretations of Quantum MechanicsPROSE::WAJENBERGTue Aug 12 1986 09:4560
    "Tolerates" is indeed a better choice of words than "postulates."
    
    Quantum mechanics gives its answers in terms of probabilities, for
    the most part.  This results in things like the famous Heisenberg
    Uncertainty Principle, which, in one form, states that
    
    			dp dx = h
    
    where dp is the uncertainty, the possible spread, in the value of
    a particle's momentum, dx is the uncertainty in position, and
    h is Planck's constant, a fixed number.  Also, the = sign should
    be "greater than or equal to," but that is beyond my keyboard.
                           
    The question then arises, What is uncertain in the Uncertainty
    Principle?  Is it just a description of our own ignorance, a limit
    on what we can find out, set by nature?  Or is matter itself uncertain,
    lacking in a definite value?
    
    The questions came to a crescendo around 1930, with Niels Bohr leading
    the view that the world is uncertain and Albert Einstein maintaining
    that it was just us.  Bohr more or less won, or at least had the
    last word in the debates, but nothing has been settled.  And now
    these questions are coming up again.
    
    In the Einsteinian view, the world is single and definite, just
    as common sense would have it.  This implies that quantum mechanics
    is not a complete description of the world, since it describes things
    vaguely, so to speak.  (Not that it isn't useful.  All solid state
    electronics, for instance, is applied quantum mechanics, as is most
    modern chemistry.)  However, QM is a very good description as far
    as it goes, and that means that whatever the truth behind QM is,
    it must fall within the limits already set by QM.  To do so, it
    must involve physical properties not constrained by space and time,
    allowing, for instance, information to move faster than light or
    backwards in time.  This makes some folks very uncomfortable.
    
    In Bohr's view, the world doesn't HAVE a definite physical state
    until you look at it.  The act of observation forces the world to
    "make up its mind," so to speak.  Einstein once bluntly asked Bohr,
    "Do you think the moon is there when no one is looking at it?" 
    I don't know what Bohr replied, but in terms of his theory, the
    answer would be something like: "No, it isn't, there's just a very
    good chance that the next time someone looks for the moon, they'll
    find it there.  What they'll find will be one out of a spectrum
    of possible moons, selected at random."
    
    A man named Everett went on to develop Bohr's theory and suggested
    that each of those possible moons is real.  Every time there is
    more than one physical possibility, all become real in a different
    parallel world.  I think this is the "many realities" idea you refer
    to.  No one has exactly disproved this, but it has some mathematical
    problems with it, and it is more often used by science fiction authors
    than by physicists.
    
    Personally, I take Einstein's side.  The non-local physics doesn't
    bother me, while Bohr's solipcism does.  But it's a matter of personal
    taste or metaphysics, not science.  Not yet, anyway.  Whichever
    side turns out to be right, the world must be a very odd place.
    
    Earl Wajenberg
189.2A Thought...INK::KALLISTue Aug 12 1986 10:5416
    Re .1:
    
    The Bohr view rather implies rthat everything's more or less formless
    until there's an intelligence to appreciate it, one would think.
    
    Something interesting:  While the ancient Egyptian mythologies are
    often at variance or mutuallty exclusive, one story of the creation,
    centering on Khephera, the scarab-god, was that he created the world
    by sending his thoughts rippling across _the surface_ of Chaos.
     The Chaos, therefore, still was there, just covered by a thin veneer
    of "reality."
    
    Nothing much, but an interesting fable in this context...
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    
189.3What's real anyway?BRAT::WALLISWed Aug 13 1986 17:4933
    
    
    A slight variation of Bohr's view might be that we all create our
    own reality, however there may be certain principles or universal
    laws governing this earth's reality, which we agree to when we enter.
    Part of that belief would be to believe in time in space....those
    who can see past it, pull out of the gravitation pull if you will
    (some call it getting lost in the senses/emotions etc)...can alter
    the agreed upon time and space laws and litererally not see the
    moon or see it totally different than most see it.  In relation to 
    the moon.  Both Einstien and Bohr may be correct.  It may, in fact be 
    finite and at the same time not there if we don't look.   It exists because
    I believe it exists theory.  If we really understood this theory
    and if it is correct it would be possible to loose all sense of
    time, space and object reality and in effect go crazy with the
    existing non-existance!
    
    The concept of dematerialization would fall into this category and
    transcend the laws  or more correctly the believed in laws of time and 
    space.  Is dematerialization and materialization real?  if it is
    then whatever the object it can exist in time and space one moment
    and not at all in the next.  Are all our limitation real or is it
    because we give power to them with our beliefs.....is it all based
    in our common universal mindset and created out of our need for
    structure and the basic fear of not having anything to hold onto.
    
    Interesting ideas!   Interesting topic.
    
    Lora
    
    
    
    materialization real?  
189.4another representationSTAR::DICKINSONFri Sep 12 1986 16:0334
    
    Just discovered this note. I think another way to approach the original
    question is not to view quantum mechanics from Bohr's perspective,
    but to see it more in the representation of P.A.M. Dirac. The given
    state of any mass (or energy packet, if you will) can be represented
    by a state vector (the WAVE FUNCTION of the Shroedinger representation).
                                                            
    The state vector exists mathematically in what is known as Hilbert
    space (sort of like 3D space,but much different). Hilbert space
    is characterized as being infinitly dimensional. Like any other
    vector, the state vector also has component vectors that 'combine'
    or form a basis for the state vector. It's pretty much the same
    idea as fourrier analysis, where one can form any given function
    by combining the correct proportions of fundemental functions -
    'waves' -. Like a piano string vibrating at a given frequency, is
    made up of many fundenmental frequencies or harmonics, so to the
    wave function or state vector of QM is composed of many "harmonics",
    except in QM there is an infinite number of components or 'harmonics',
    which is the reason the state vector is represented in hilbert space.
    
    Now (time to breath), imagine your reality as the state vector.
    This would imply that your reality is really nothing but the 'relative
    proprortions' of the infinite number of all the possible realities
    that exist.
    
    just a little pet theory of mine ( please excuse any inaccuracies,
    it's literaly been 10 years since I've studied this stuff in graduate
    school)
         
    happy realities,
    
    peter
    
    peter