Conference hydra::dejavu

    What is Walpurgishacht, traditionally?  Does it have connections
    to other pagan religions, or is it strictly Satanic?
    
    Marcia

    It's difficult to separate Satan worship from perversions to some
    pagan rites, since nobody works in a vacuum.  However, Walpurgisnacht
    (or "waliprgis Night") was named in honor(?) of the Christian martyr,
    St. Walpurgis.
    
    Traditionally, it was a time Satanic witches were supposed to ride
    on broomsticks (bristles first, each with a lighted candle, presumably
    as an equivalent of a navigation light) to join the celebrants of
    the sabbat.  There's a description of a Walpurgisnacht celebration
    in Goethe's _Faust_, as I recall.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

	Yes, be careful, but do NOT assume that anything "unusual" is a
gathering of satanists.  Tommorow is also when many Pagans celebrate
Beltane (May Eve), and, with the good weather we've been having, may likely
take to the outdoors.

It's really a tragedy that Satanism has been associated with 
Witchcraft, because witches don't believe in Satan.  
Unfortunately, anyone can start a group "worshipping" Satan, if 
you will, and say they're Witches (as I said in note 103 anyone 
can call him- or herself a witch).

As for May 1st, it is one of the traditional holidays of Pagans 
(one of the cross-quarters) that is usually referred to as 
Beltaine, for Bel's fire--a time when the sun is returning to 
earth and the growing season begins.  It is often celebrated with 
rituals of fertility (the May Pole, which everyone has heard of) 
and feasting after a long winter.

Many groups in the United States have gotten into Satanism for a 
variety of reasons, not the least of which is just plain youthful 
rebellion at a society they don't like.  But the school systems 
that make rulings that students can't wear pentagrams is a much a 
violation of constitutional rights as it would be to tell Jewish 
students they couldn't wear yarmulkes.  


/chuck

    re .3, .4:
    
    Well, okay: I deliberately tried to avoid making a Beltane-to-
    Walpurgisnacht connection; 'fraid it didn't take.
    
    Wiccan and other nonSatanic witches have devotions and ceremonies
    that celebrate light and positive forces; the Satanists celebrate
    darkness and evil.  These should _never_ be confused.
    
    Let's agree that the majority of things that collectively are called
    witchcraft are positive; I certainly meant nothing else by the base
    note, which is why I tried to separate out the Satanic element:
    then, the point remaining is that in their rites, the Satanists
    could cause harm to pets and property, which is something to be
    sensitized to.
    
    I reported _Fate's_ indication that the school system of El Paso
    reputedly is banning certain jewelry and buttons; note I did not
    say I approved.  If we want to get philosophical, _any_ religious
    ceremony, no matter how alien to our (various) own, deserves the
    same protection of law that we'd expect of the religion(s) we follow,
    including worshippers of Satan, Set, Negral, or, for that matter,
    Cthulhu.  
    
    However, for those who have reason to be concerned for the safety
    of their pets or who feel they are particularly sensitive or
    susceptible to dark forces, the base note was inserted to alert
    them to possibilities to look out for.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

Re: .5
    
>    Let's agree that the majority of things that collectively are called
>    witchcraft are positive; I certainly meant nothing else by the base
>    note, which is why I tried to separate out the Satanic element:
>    then, the point remaining is that in their rites, the Satanists
>    could cause harm to pets and property, which is something to be
>    sensitized to.

    I quite agree.  It was not my intent to accuse you of an alterior
motive, and if I came across that way, I'm sorry.  I just wanted to caution
people not to assume that any gathering they may encounter which appears
strange is necessarily a satanic group.  If in doubt, it's best to stay
away, and it's probably not a bad idea to keep the pets home, in any case.

Mark

    On April 30th the Boston Globe usually publishes an article about
    fundementalist clergymen who think that there are secret satanic
    messages in somebody's corporate logo, rock music played backwards,
    etc.  This has happened several years in a row.  I'm convinced
    that this is the work of a Satanic cult which has infiltrated the
    Boston Globe. ;^} Watch for it.
    
    Pat Hardy

    Most Wicca(ns) are fairly Eclectic with some Esoteric leanings, so...
    The eight seasonal rites are very popular with most involved in
    the Craft.
    
    As to the Satanist...  I had the pleasure of spending 4 months on
    a Naval ship with 5 or 6 Satanist.  I was a B.A.C. at the time so
    we got along real well.  They were set upon the idea that they were
    going to win and get to judge all the "Christians" and throw them
    in the Lake of Fire.  Being presented with a mirror image of my
    faith was very interesting indeed.
    
    I understand that most of the reports mentioned by Steve didn't
    make a distinction between Satanism and Wicca.  In fact, the ones
    I read on VTX called them "witches".  Another series of "witch hunts"
    may be on the way.  Especialy since Lynden Larouce has claimed that
    "witchs" run the Chiacgo area.

    Can a six sided star shaped symbol be considered  to be a pentagram? 
    And what are other symbols and thier meaning used by satanists ?
    
    PAX
    Addie 

    Personally, the whole thing scares the "hell" out of me.  :-|
    
    Addie           
    

    re .11:
    
    This really is a bit outside Satanism, but to answer your questions
    (indirectly):
    
    A pentaGRAM is a five-pointed figure, usually either a pentagon
    or star shape.  The pentagram is often used as an occult symbol,
    either straight or embellished.  Convention is that a single-point-up
    pentagram is positive, good, and represents beneficient things.
    A single-point-down pentagram represents negative forces, evil,
    and discord.  In a Satanic tradition, the single-point-down pentagram
    can be thought of as representing a goat's head (the uppermost points
    the horns, the nect two, the ears, and the final one the jaw/beard)
    with an obvious connection to the Devil (this is pictured superbly
    in the Morgan-Greer "devil" Tarot card).  [At least I related it
    to Satanism a little!]
    
    In ceremonial magic, there is a figure called the pentaCLE, which
    some occultists call the "pantacle" for differentiation.  Some
    pentacles did incorporate the pentagram, thus making the two terms
    synonymous in some people's minds.  Other "pentacles" did not have
    a five-pointed star, but had a six-pointed one.  Others had a
    seven-pointed, or nine-pointed, or ... star.  Others had _no_ star,
    but instead had another gerometric figure, letter, or other design.
    Others, such as The Face of Shaddai, had pictures.  Many of these
    were illustrated in Medieval grimoires.
    
    So to answer that portion of your question, pentagrams can have
    only five sides; pentacles can have any number of "sides" or no
    really well defined ones, for that matter.
    
    Since Satanists are perverted Christians, other symbols include
    things involving Scriptures or the Christian tradition.  These include
    inverted crucifixes, pins with the "number of the beast" (666),
    devil's head pendants, and the like.  Usually a point-down triangle
    reflects negativity, some some Satanists use that. [However, others
    may do so, too: don't get into the trap of assuming anythinglike
    an upside-down triangle necessarily implies Satan worship.]  There
    is a "hierarchy of Hell" wheel-shaped symbol listing chief devils
    (Beelzebuth, Astartoth, etc) with "Satan Rex" in its center that
    is sometimes seen (somebody wearing that or [as I once saw] having
    a car window-sticker with the pattern is probably a Satanist).
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

Some minor nits Steve -- as usual things are not so simple:

>Since Satanists are perverted Christians,

Most Satanists one is likely to run into in the United States, Canada
and Northern Europe are certainly going to be "perverted Christians" as
you put it.

There are, however, without question Islamic Satanists.  In theory at
least, there could also be Jewish Satanists, although I have never heard
of any (and the different role of Satan in classical Judaism would tend
to give them a rather different character from the Christian or Islamic
ones).

There are apparently also groups who have accepted the Christian view of
the world, have identified their traditional gods with Satan and/or his
minions, yet continue to worship those traditional gods.  These would
be considered Satanists but I don't think that the term "perverted" would
be appropriate.  Mostly I hear this (and I have to consider these rumors,
rather than fact) in connection with African, Caribbean and Latin American
religions.  I have also heard (rumor remember, but, I think, possible) of
European-pagan (e.g., Wiccan) versions of this.  That is, some European-
pagans are claimed to agree with the various Churches' identification of
their worship as "demon-worship".

Adding to the confusion there are non-satanists who are identified as
Satanists by others, most especially various Christian Churches.  Such an
identification with European-pagans has already been mentioned in this
conference.  Also of direct relevance are many ritual magicians who deal
with demons.

There is no question in my mind that this is not a very smart thing to
do.  If effective (in any sense) it is dangerous -- psychologically if not
spiritually.  And I say this as someone who is not a Christian/Moslem/Jew.

Christian Churches which discuss the issue at all seem to agree that it
will inevitably lead to Satanism -- worship of (domination by) the demons
summoned.  This, even if true, does not justify confusing the two.  Neither
does the claim that the ritual magician furthers the aims of Satan, since
*any* sinner does so.  Forcible invocation and binding, especially by using
holy names, simply do not constitute worship (although they may be
considered sin because they take the "name of God in vain" whatever that
means).

(By the way, there are, and classically have been, Jewish ritual magicians
of this kind.  Demons are not really viewed the same in classical Judaism,
and so this also have a different flavor to it.  Most particularly, as I
understand it, there should be no confusion in Judaism between demon
summoning/binding and Satanism).

"Perverted Christian" Satanists, naturally react to this by accepting the
connection and adopting the tools of the ritual magician as icons.  Many
of the symbols mentioned (e.g., various pentacles; but probably not the
inverted cross) got adopted into Satanism this way.  This, of course,
confuses the issue even more.

I guess the point of this is that the term "Satanist" is almost as
complicated as "witch".

				Topher

    All of the persons involved in the aforementioned groups that I
    have know were very clear about what they were involved in.
    
    To know the difference just ask them about their cosmologies.  Anything
    that reflects a semi-christian or mirrored-christian cosmology is
    (or could be) Satanic.  Anything that reflects a Goddess/God cosmology
    is/could be Wiccan.
    
    I think that confusion can come when one is confronted with a "Black
    Witch".  A black witch will use the power to their own ends.  
    
    I'm not sure that "ceremonial magicians" are satanic, they do use
    christian/zoroastrian icons.  I think that is because those were
    the easiest icons to use.

    re .14, .15:
    
    Topher, I accept some of the nits as quite valid (see what trying
    to write a simple note does? [:-)]).  I should have said "the majority
    of" before Satanists.
    
    Cerem,onial magicians are another matter.  Some were reported to
    have bargained with what Waite calls "the hosts of infernus" in
    his translation of _Le Pullet Noire_; others supposedly had other
    ways to make them do what was wanted.  Some Christian ceremonial
    magicians didn't/don't have anything to do with infernal beings
    but invoked angels (Enochian magic) or elemental beings.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    Re: .16
     
    Steve,
    You mentioned elemental beings would you elaborate or is that too
    far off the subject?
    
    Addie

    Having just heard about the Mr. Ed thing on "All Things Considered"
    I find myself shocked that Mr. Ed would ever be involved in such.
    
    Shame..  Shame.. Shame on Mr. Ed.

	    [RE .13]:  I believe the association of a goat's head with
	Satan is derived from the association of the pagan god Pan
	with Satan (an association made by the Christians, not the
	pagans).
			<_Jym_>

    re .19:
    
    There's probably an element of that, but also there's the element
    of the scapegoat, where a goat was used to dump all the sins of
    any of the ancient Isreali tribes.  Perhaps the goat/Satan connection
    is a synthesis.
    
    Oddly, both the goat head and the head of a beautiful man were
    considered symbols of the being Baphomet, reputed to have been
    worshipped by the Knights Templars.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    Why not a common link between the two?  The Goats Head represents
    many things to different people.  Probably it means vitality and
    the cycle of life and death to witches.

    Alot of groups, apart from the church, used ecstacy as a main focal
    point in their "workings", ie. a device to raise energy (probably
    emotional) to achieve their means.
    
    I understand the sufis and the Templars had alot of ecstacy type
    work in their faiths.  It also seems that along with the whirling
    dervishes, the witchs (who probably adopted it from the east somewhow)
    believe in divine possession.  I think this "vitality", as an energy,
    was looked down upon by the church.
    
    The ram/Pan diacotomy is probably true.  There was great war between
    the church and the pagini (the common people) over symbols and what
    they were used for.
    
    Pan is a representation of the "Horned God".  The energy dipicted
    here is of active and excited involvement in the basic processes
    of life, ie. seeding and reaping.  (I sometimes think that witchs
    are in it for the sex, but don't say I said that) :-)  Since the
    church was/is dead set against sex as a recreational passtime, and
    since they were/are firmly covinced that sex led to evil they probably
    converted the sysbol to their own usage.  Hince the devil became
    the evil representation of the basic forces of life.

    I got a better feel for why the goat's head is associated with
    the Devil when I looked at a goat's eyes.  They are strange
    indeed -- yellow, with the pupil slit horizontally.  Associating
    something like that with the alien would be very easy.
    
    							Ann B.

    This is late but I just discovered this conference.  I was taught
    that Satanists must do everything contrary to all forms of deity.
    They pervert Scripture, symbols, gifts of the Holy Spirit and
    any other Bible reference imaginable.  Christ is called at times
    the Lamb of God.  The contradiction to the Lamb is the Goat.
    The Christian Cross is well known, Satanists use the upside down
    cross.  They also use a swastika, a broken cross.  Satan mimicks
    God in the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.  He can't create so he copies
    and distorts.  Satan uses demons for Satanic Healings.  He traps
    people into being caught up with the future and eternal life and
    trying to find a way to be saved from Hell through tools such as
    reincarnation, astrology, witchcraft, spiritism, and other
    assorted psychic phenomena.  The difference between God and Satan's
    use of these, as there examples of phenomena in the Bible, is that
    God uses it to uplift his name and Satan uses it to uplift his
    name.  Satan's pride is what got him cast out of heaven in the first
    place and he still thinks he deserves praise.  He also uses other
    names to confuse people with what he is.  He's the master deceiver,
    he's Lucifer !  
    
    Have any of you put 2 + 2 together and noticed that Satanists use
    the same sources that the rest of you are so interested in ?  All
    these supernatural powers are all sourced from Satan and his Demons.
    Why ?  Because none of these in this conference are used to uplift
    God, Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit !
    
    Choose whom this day ye will serve !  God or Satan !  There is no
    grey in the supernatural !
    
    Mike
    
    

    Re: .23
    
    The second sentence of your message states "I was taught".  Exactly!
    This is what you have been taught.  This is what you feel to be
    true for you...and that's fine.  Other people have been taught other
    things that are true for them...and that's fine too.  To insist
    that your beliefs are the best for everyone, is not only totally
    egotistical, but you are actually playing "God", yourself, and
    claiming to know all of the answers.  
    
    Instead of worrying about the validity of other people's beliefs 
    (which are working for them), why don't you make more of yourself?  
    Making the most of ourselves certainly helps everyone more than 
    telling them what we currently think they should or shouldn't be
    doing.  Focusing on other people is just a clever way of avoiding 
    the problems with oneself.
    
    Jerri

    9. "When thou art come into the land which the Lord thy God giveth
    thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those
    nations.
    
    10. There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or
    his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination,
    or an observer of the times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
    
    11. Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard,
    or a necromancer.
    
    12. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord:
    and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them
    out from before thee.
    
    13. Thou shalt be perfect with the Lord thy God.
    
    14. For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto 
    observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the Lord
    thy God hath not suffered thee so to do."
    DEUTERONOMY 18:9-14
    
    17. "As for these 4 children, God gave them knowledge and skill in all
    learning and wisdom: and Daniel had understanding in all visions
    and dreams.
    
    18. Now at the end of the days that the king had said he should bring
    them in, then the prince of the eunuchs brought them before 
    Nebuchadnezzar.
    
    19. And the king communed with them; and among them all was found none
    like Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah: therefore stood before
    the king.
    
    20. And in all matters of wisdom and understanding, that the king inquired
    of them, he found them 10 times better than all the magicians and
    astrologers that were in all his realm."
    DANIEL 1:17-20
    
    16. "And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed
    with the spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters
    much gain by soothsaying:
    
    17. The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are
    the servants of the most high God, which show unto us the way of
    salvation.
    
    18. And this did she many days.  But Paul , being grieved, turned and
    said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to
    come out of her.  And he came out the same hour.
    
    19. And when the her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone,
    they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the market place
    unto the rulers."
    ACTS 16:16-19

    1. "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether
    they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the
    world.
    
    2. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth
    that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
    
    3. And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come
    in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist,
    whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already
    is it in the world.
    
    4. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because
    greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
    
    5. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and
    the world heareth them.
    
    6. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not
    of God heareth not us.  Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and
    the spirit of error."
    I JOHN 4:1-6
    
    "Jesus answered and said unto him, 'Verily, verily, I say unto
    thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of
    God.' "	JOHN 3:3
    
    "Jesus saith unto him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life: no
    man cometh unto the Father, but by me.' "   JOHN 14:6
    
    "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against
    principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness
    of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
    EPHESIANS 6:12
    
    
        

    	I believe Jesus meant to be SPIRITUALLY born again, not literally.
    
    	Larry
    

    Re: .27
    
    You're right, the Gifts of the Holy Spirit that Daniel possessed
    has nothing to do with Satan/Lucifer.  Like I said in a previous
    reply (.23 I think), Satan/Lucifer copies and perverts what God
    has set up.  Daniel used his gifts to glorify God and to show that
    the power of God cannot be matched, NO MATTER THE SOURCE !  
    Nebuchadnezzar was king of the Babylon region and all the Chaldeans,
    who originated astrology.  God used Daniel to show them that no
    matter what they did to try and "find" god, Daniel's God is Lord
    over all !
    
    As for a further explanation of "born again", Jesus Christ continued
    after JOHN 3:3 up to verse 15.  I recommend you reading it as it
    has nothing to do with reincarnation.  You will never be good enough
    to enter the Kingdom of God, ROMANS 3:23.  But that is why Christ
    died on the cross, JOHN 3:16,17, he did all the work for us because
    ROMANS 6:23 says the wages of sin is death !  All you have to do
    is accept it and believe in him, ask him into your heart instead
    of looking for the answers in psychic phenomena.
    
    Re: .28  Thank you and God Bless You !
    
    Re: .29  
    
    I'm suprised you didn't confuse yourself with that reply.  I'll
    have to mull over it and answer you when I get more free time,
    probably Monday.
    
    I can tell you though that you are making something very simple
    into a complex situation through your "reasoning".  You can't read
    into the Bible or add between the lines, it is to be taken literally.
    REVELATIONS 22:18,19 give strong warnings to those that add to or
    take away from God's Holy Inspired Word !  It says the plagues in
    the Bible will be added to the man that makes these changes to the
    Bible.
    
    Mike
    
    

    Re: .29
    
    You say there are many ways of undersatandings.  My Bible says there
    is 1.  JOHN 14:6.  Even Satan/Lucifer and his demons know better.
    ACTS 16:17 says that Paul was preaching "THE way of salvation",
    not A way.  The following may help you clear up this "ego" thing.
    
    JOHN 7:16-18
    Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his
    that sent me.
    If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether
    it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
    He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh
    his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness
    is in him.
    
    DEUTERONOMY 13:1-5
    If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and
    giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
    And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee,
    saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and
    let us serve them;
    Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer
    of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye
    love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
    Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his
    commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave
    unto him.
    And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death;
    because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God,
    which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out
    of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the
    Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in.  So shalt thou put the evil
    away from the midst of thee.
    
    JOHN 12:44-50
    Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on
    me, but on him that sent me.
    And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
    I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me
    should not abide in darkness.
    And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not:
    for I came not to judge the world but to save the world.
    He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that
    judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him
    in the last day.
    For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he
    gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
    And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever
    I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
    
    JOHN 18:36
    Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were
    of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be
    delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
    
    More at a later date !
    
    Mike
    

I've been asked to enter a response to this note for someone who wishes
to remain anonymous.  In discussing this issue with my comoderator, we decided
that it would be best for current discussion to end.  This file was created
for the discussion of psychic phenomena not religious issues (although it
may be difficult to separate the two in some cases).

		Dave (Comoderator)

Anonymous response:

I am always amazed at the B.A's(Born again christian) adament denial of 
love,tolerance and forgiveness.  To strive to be "Jesus" like would include
those things.  To try to heap guilt and condamnation on people of a different
belief, makes the BA a hypocrite.
The higher being in any religion is a being of love, kindness,caring,
non-condamnation, tolerance and forgiveness.  (I feel that satan and his
ilk are classified as LOWER beings, so therefor not to be confused)
To be able to love and believe in a higher power of love, I feel that God
IS the benifactor.  HE is a peaceful, loving God, why would he want/accept
condamnation doled out by a BA when there is no love or tolerance in their
heart.  Mike, you do not have the right to be above God by telling others 
that your belief is the ONLY belief.  You may quote all the scripture you
choose to, but this does not make your belief the only belief to be followed.
Do you feel that anyone of any other belief is condemned to eternal
damnation not matter how devout they may be because they do not believe
the same as you.  It's too bad that 90% of the world is condemned with 
that opinion.  Your God seems so unforgiving.  I choose to believe that
the world who believes in the power of love and good is worshiping the
one and only powerful God or higher being.  If you feel that you are doing
what you are called to do by preaching to people in this notes file, 
maybe you should consider the amount of humility that you have, isn't that
one of the wonderful aspects of Jesus?  It's sad you don't have the power to
be as Jesus like as you think you are.  Pray on to yourself, your non
tolerance is rather humerous and you have a long road to travel.  We can
forgive you, but will God?  No human has the right to take Gods place so
please consider yourself overstepping yourself.  Sanctamonous behavior 
is not an inducement to preaching nor *saving* people who feel that the
higher being in their heart is one and the same with the world. 

    I read  this  conference because I enjoy its subject matter, and the 
    friendly debate that goes on, and also  because  I  feel  a  certain 
    affinity to the paranormal.
    
    I also read some notes files on religious topics.
    
    I don't  want  to reply directly to the religious issues, but having 
    read the Bible (from cover to cover), the Koran, and  several  other 
    religions'  basic source material, I conclude that there is room for 
    many viewpoints, and many points of cuncurrence  between  the  major 
    religions. 
    
    So I'll keep my Bible on the shelf next to the Koran and others.
    
    However  this recent round of replies reminds me of a quote from the 
    Bible: 
    
    	"Judge not, lest ye be judged"
    
    /. Ian .\

    Thank you, Ian!!  Well said....or well quoted!!!
    
     

    Were I to employ a courier to warn travelers of unsafe roads on
    my lands, and were I to discover that this message had been
    presented as a threat and a curse placed on those travelers...
    
    I would conclude that the courier labored under some fundamental
    misapprehension, either of my intent or of the nuances of the
    language, or alternatively that the courier lacked skill in
    dealing with strangers.
    
    Pat
    

    Along the line of the idea of associating symbols with "somethings";
    Just last night during my Tarot class I found a point down pentagram
    on the forehead of the Devil.  Not being one to judge the symbol
    by it general rep, I thought about the symbol.  A point up pentagram,
    to me, indicates spiritual focus and a point down pentagram indicates
    physical focus.
    
    Now I can understand that some of our friends will get upset if
    I have fun, that is if I have a physical focus.  But let me tell
    you something, I can't be spiritually focused all the time.  I have
    to take care of my body and its needs too, not just my spiritual
    needs.
                                                      
      Mikie?

    
    Miki,
    
    Isn't it funny how often we associate "things of the flesh" with
    evil and things "of the spirit" as good.  We are so inclined this
    way that we often don't see good and evil for what it is even
    when it smacks us in the face.  For example, I read a note in this
    file that told a running story of a person who had contacted a long
    since dead murderer and rapeist.  I couldn't believe that this guy
    actually SOUGHT OUT communication with this spirit.  If this spirit
    had been alive (of the flesh), and had murdered his best friend,
    and raped his sister, I bet the guy would have recognized evil for
    evil.  The fact is that we should avoid association with evil not
    only because our mothers told us not to associate with "bad kids".
    We should avoid evil because it can hurt us a the physical, mental,
    emotional and spiritual way.  It is easy to think of good as a real
    thing, and evil as nothing more than a lack of good.  I do not choose
    to think of it this way.  I believe that Satan does in fact exist.
    I also believe that it is his aim to mess me up in any way he possibly
    can.  My human curiosity would bring me to want to inspect his nature,
    but I also think he takes advantage of this and other human
    characteristics.   That's why I am very cautious of things like
    ouja and  seances and the like.  When, might I ask, is a person
    more vulnerable than when involved in such activities.

    RE: .37
    
    From my own perspective, I feel that if you truly believe in
    something/someone, it will be true for you in your experience.
    I don't necessarily believe the same way you do regarding good
    and evil and Satan.  Your point about our being the most
    vulnerable when opening ourselves up to communications with
    spirit is in many ways true and I do agree.  The way I see it
    is that if anyone approaches this "psychic opening up" as a
    game and for absolutely no other reason, they could be in for
    trouble.  I would never suggest that someone do these things
    just to try it.  
    
    However, there is purpose behind spirit communication when 
    approached responsibly and with commitment and love.  It allows
    those, who I believe have been called to this work, to serve
    God and humanity...it is done as a "servant".  People who live
    in fear of death, or in guilt because of how they treated someone
    who has passed away, or in regret because they didn't say and do
    something, or in anger and loss because they have been left behind  
    by a loved one and believe they have lost them forever, can be
    helped and healed beyond words, and beyond anyone elses' judgements.
    
    When a person makes a commitment to work as a medium, they open
    themselves up to spirit "in the light and love of God".  They are
    protected, and are assisted by their own spirit guides (everyone
    of us has one or more).  There is work done by spirit to create
    what is called "control" of the communication process and how the
    medium is used and who comes through.  The developing medium is
    taught how to open themselves up for this communication and how
    to "close themselves down" when it is completed.  The process
    is not taken lightly.  The approach should always have as its
    elements:  trust, love, humor, honesty, responsibility and commitment.
    
    I truly believe that the ability to communicate with each other
    between the worlds is a gift from God and, if approached wisely and
    responsibly, has His/Her blessing.
    
    Carole
    

    
    
    Another area of work in spirit communication is what is called
    "recovery" work.  I feel that this type of work should only be
    approached by very experienced mediums who have the utmost faith
    and trust in God and their spirit guides.  I have witnessed this
    twice and it was quite intense, and have heard about others.
    
    "Recovery" work usually requires a "trance" medium through which
    the spirit in need speaks.  Those others in attendance try to
    assist the spirit in understanding their circumstances and to
    allow their loved ones in spirit to help them.  The ones I witnessed
    were an older man who had died and would not accept the fact that he
    had.  He was still clinging to the earth plane and trying to
    communicate with his wife.  There was quite a bit of crying and
    yelling through the communication.  The second one was a marine
    who had died in an explosion and was crushed when the building
    collapsed.  He was "stuck" at the scene of his death and kept
    reliving it over and over.  We worked with him for quite a while
    until he finally began to allow himself to become aware of his
    "real" surroundings and began to let go of his death scene.  I'll
    never forget it.
    
    There are so many souls here and in spirit that need assistance,
    and there is so much good that can come from the process of
    communication.
    
    Carole
    

Re: .29, This late seeing the # of replies but hopefully it'll help.
    
MATTHEW 6:21,24
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
No man can serve 2 masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the
other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.  Ye cannot 
serve God and mammon.

[This means whatever you chose to replace God with, whether it be Satan
 or yourself, you've chosen to not worship God.  You must choose to serve
 somebody or I guess you can say you must choose who holds the keys to
 your soul.  It's either God or it isn't God.  There's no gray area in
 the spiritual world, only black and white.]

MATTHEW 7:13,14
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate and broad is the way,
that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth, unto
life, and few there be that find it.

MATTHEW 7:21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom
of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy
name ? and in thy name have cast out devils ? and in thy name done many
wonderful works ?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye
that work iniquity.

[What Jesus meant here is that anyone can cast out spirits using his
 name since Christ is the only being that has authority over Satan/Lucifer
 and his demons.  Only the ones that accept Jesus Christ's plan of
 salvation will see heaven.  MATTHEW 8:28-34 confirms this when Jesus
 was going to exorcise a man possessed of demons and they begged Jesus
 not to destroy or torture them.]

MATTHEW 10:32-33
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also
before my Father which is in heaven.
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my
Father which is in heaven.

MATTHEW 10:40
He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth
him that sent me.

II CORINTHIANS 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye
be reprobates ?

Re: Satan/Lucifer as just an illusion or an ego attachment.

ISAIAH 14:12-20
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art
thou cut down to the ground, which thou didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will
exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount
of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most
High.
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee,
saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did
shake kingdoms;
That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof;
that opened not the house of his prisoners?
All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one
in his own house.
But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as
the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that 
go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed
thy land, and slain they people: the seed of evildoers shall never be
renowned.

JUDE 9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed
about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing 
accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

[Can't play games with Satan/Lucifer, he plays to win and Michael
 recognized that by straight out rebuking him.]

JOHN 14:30
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world
cometh, and hath nothing in me.

[Satan/Lucifer has no power or holdings over Jesus Christ.]

II CORINTHIANS 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe
not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is in the image 
of God, should shine unto them.

In LUKE 4:5-12 Jesus Christ was tempted by Satan/Lucifer.  One of the three
temptations he put in front of Jesus, revealed the power and authority Satan
does have.  He showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the world, and said he
would give them all to Christ, if Christ would worship Satan.  Verse 6
says it was given to Satan to deliver to whoever he choses.  Of course
we all know that Jesus put him in his place.  The significance here is
that the authority he has over this world.  This also allows him to
set up the reign of the Antichrist for the future as stated in 
REVELATIONS.  Most people thought 666, was just a number, my how popular
it has become in our world.  It's in Rock Music, grafitti, UPC bar codes
on all our consumer goods and it just so happens that it's the easiest
number for a computer to manipulate.  Satan/Lucifer and all he stands for
is not an illusion or an ego attachment.

I hope this sheds some light.  Of course this is all in vain if you
don't believe that the Holy Bible is the Holy, Inspired, Word of
God.  That's another arguement in itself.

Mike

    First of all, let me apologize to the members & moderators of this
    conference.  I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers.  My main reason
    for peeking into this conference was out of curiousity in the
    subject.  Also, my Sunday School class is covering the topic since
    it is so popular today.   We mainly discuss what God's Word has
    to say about the subject and have studied examples in the Bible
    where people think Jesus and others use psychic energy and what
    really happens and the difference between the 2 supernatural
    forces.  The notes I entered were not out of any anger or out of
    judgement, nor did I intend to lay a guilt trip on anyone.
    I mainly was trying to see the reactions of all of you as to what
    the Bible says of all this.  Also, what makes all of you think
    I'm a Born Again Christian ?  Did the spirits tell you that ?
    If so, at least they're consistent at knowing who has authority
    over them !
    
    
    Re: .39
    I think you're getting a little ridiculous !
    
    Re: .38
    Can you really close down ?   My concern here would be for a being
    you can't see and have no control over without the authority that
    comes through Jesus Christ.  How can you be sure he leaves ?
    What if he says he leaves but doesn't and assumes possession of
    your body ?
    
    Re: .37
    Very well said !
    
    Re: .35
    Can you re-enter that in English ?
    
    Re: .33
    Please don't take verses out of context.  Use the whole verse because
    you may be changing the literal meaning.  I'm sorry if you thought
    I was judging.
    
    Re: .32
    A heavy letter !  My God is also a God of Love first and foremost.
    That's why he sent his Son to die for us (JOHN 3:16).  I don't have
    the right to tell others what to believe but God and Jesus Christ
    do and he did in JOHN 3:3, 14:6.  Anyone of any belief can see the
    kingdom of heaven if they accept Jesus Christ as their personal
    Saviour.  It's not a religion, Christianity is a one on one
    relationship with a known and living God who loves us and wants
    what's best for us.  No one knows what's better for us than he since
    he created us.  That's why he set forth his word in the Bible so
    we'll know what's best for us.  I wish 90 % of the world believed
    this way, that is an overstatement.  If that were true, Christians
    wouldn't be persecuted as they are.  My God will forgive anyone
    but, you have to ask for it !  I asked and he forgave me, just like
    the Bible says he would.  I don't have the power to be like Jesus
    but that's why he died for us.  ROMANS 6:23 says, "For the wages
    of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus
    Christ our Lord."  By accepting him, I received some of his power
    through the Holy Spirit to try to be like him through spiritual
    growth.  When in heaven, I will be like him !  I'm not overstepping
    myself or God, Satan/Lucifer taught us a lesson from doing that.
    I'm merely relaying what God set forth in His Word.  The higher
    being in your heart is one with the world ?  That's too bad because
    Jesus said in JOHN 18:36 and many other verses that "I am not of
    this world".
    
    We were told by Christ before he ascended into heaven to preach
    the gospel unto the ends of the earth.  I'm trying to point out
    some basic truths that people lose sight of when dealing with
    spirits they don't know the source of.  If I didn't care whether
    you folks made it to heaven or not, I wouldn't have entered anything.
    Now that you know what the Bible says and where the verses are so
    you can verify it, the ball is in your court.  Choose whom this
    day you will serve.  Whether you make a choice or not, you must
    make a choice.  If you choose not, that is you choice and you will
    pay the consequences accordingly.
    
    Again, no hard feelings.  I'll try to be an innocent bystander,
    if anything at all, in the future.
    
    Mike
    
    
    

    
�    Re: .33
�    Please don't take verses out of context.  Use the whole verse because
�    you may be changing the literal meaning.  I'm sorry if you thought
�    I was judging.
    
     Context is of course important: however I don't carry a Bible around
     as a reference and I doubt I could just turn to the passage to quote
     it fully any way.
     
     However if you are concerned about accuracy then surely you should
     only quote the original text (in Greek or Aramaic for the New Testament)?
     There are numerous scholarly treatises on translation errors that have
     crept in over the years.
     
     Religous belief is a truly personal thing, and I for one am not keen
     to debate my beliefs or anybody else's in a notes conference, suffice
     it to say that I believe we must each, as individuals, find peace in
     our own way.

     An alternative (non Biblical) quotation that has a similar implication
     to my previous remarks is the title of this note
     
     /. Ian .\

    Re: .43
     I doubt everyone can read Greek and Aramaic so what would that
    benefit ?  Also, can you be more specific on the translation 
    errors ?  I hear many people talk about such errors but,
    no one seems to be able to back them up !
    
    Mike
    
    

    Isaac Asimov wrote two very readable books - one on the Old Testament,
    and one on the New Testament that contain numerous examples.
    

    /. Ian .\

re: .44

I would think that if you would want to take the Bible literally, you would
want to read it in the language that it was written in. You don't need
specific examples to know that there will be some errors in translating to
any language.

		Dave

    RE: .44  (Mike)
    
    I doubt that many people can understand some of the "Translations"
    that are frequently used as "The" translation.
    
    I would like to bring up another quote from a famous religious teacher
    who said "Judge a tree by the fruit it bares".  If you were to see
    all the *good* that can be accomplished through various psychic
    phenomenon, you would know that it is good.  I have seen some people
    harm themselves with certain types of Christianity, and can read
    about things that have been done in the name of Christianity, such
    as the Spanish Inquisition.  Should I assume from that that
    Christianity is *always* bad?  It seems that each person should
    look for him/herself to see what is good and bad, rather than take
    someone else's word for it, or judge it because of the label.  Note
    that this same religious teacher also said that "All who say "Lord,
    Lord" are not mine.  I will say before the Father "I never knew
    you"".
    
    This really is not the appropriate file for this discussion.  It
    really should be moved to REX::RELIGION, or perhaps SOAPBOX.
    
    Elizabeth
    

Re: .42

> I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers.  

Didn't you?  You have said some very pointed things to people, and have been
quite condescending in your manner of relating to people.  Not to mention,
your opening statement of "Open your eyes and see the connection"... which
implies that our eyes are closed.  What kind of reaction did you expect?
I wonder if perhaps you knew the kind of reaction you would get, but 
thought you might get brownie points with God and your Sunday School 
class?  I think you knew what you were doing.

> My main reason for peeking into this conference was out of curiosity in 
  the subject.  

Okay, you peeked... and then you threw 5,000 Scriptures at us.  Your
discussion seems better suited for the Religion or Religion and Bible
notesfiles, neither of which you have entered anything in.  I am not 
reading the Psychic Notesfile to read a bunch of Scriptures from the Bible.

> Also, my Sunday School class is covering the topic since it is so popular 
  today.   

The subject has ALWAYS been popular.  And most churches have always been on
the heels of it... judging everyone and everything.

> Also, what makes all of you think I'm a Born Again Christian ?  

"All of you"?  Is this part of the "Us and Them" mentality?  Christians
vs. Non-Christians (in this case, your interpretation of the Psychic 
notesfile readers)?  This is the kind of stuff wars are made of... and I 
think you should take note of your role in it.  Perhaps you should also
have more respect for us as individuals.

> Did the spirits tell you that ?  If so, at least they're consistent at 
  knowing who has authority over them !

To me, you appear very righteous.

> It's not a religion, Christianity is a one on one relationship with a 
  known and living God....

"Known"?  What does it mean to know something?  To FEEL it?  Feelings
are a very individual thing.  Everyone's feelings deserve to be respected, 
whether you feel that way or not.

I have a one on one relationship with God too, and I find your constant
condescending tone and harassing repetitive Scripture quoting very
offensive.  I know I would never be able to share God with people if
that is the way I approached them.  People are more impressed by the 
example you set... not from hearing quotes and commands.  If you are a
loving and peaceful person, that is enough to encourage people to inquire 
about your beliefs.  Any other method is a complete turn-off to me and
probably most other people.  

You say you want to be like Jesus?  I remember the Bible as referring to 
Jesus as a loving and accepting person.  He didn't hassle people... or push 
his way into crowds to voice his opinions.  He was loving and soft-spoken.  
He had open arms for everyone, regardless of their so-called "evil" actions.  
He let them come to him.  Many Christians think they have to go out and 
knock people down and drag them to church.  This isn't like Jesus.  This is 
like the church, something that was created by man.  Although you have
great respect and trust in God, man is capable of making errors in
his interpretation of God's will, or worse still, twisting the
interpretation for his own benefit.  If you put trust in everything
that you are told about God by your fellow man, you may not be following
God's will at all.  Even the Bible was translated by man, so danger
lies therein as well.  It is more intelligent for a truth seeker to
consider these factors than blindly following what they are told.

> If I didn't care whether you folks made it to heaven or not, I wouldn't 
  have entered anything.

What's this?  A righteousness trip or a guilt trip?  If it's love, love
doesn't need any explanation.

    Mike,
    
    I think the emphasis of this notes file is along the lines of finding
    out what things work and what thing don't work.  It is also along
    the lines of trying to determine, if humanly possible, why things
    do and don't work.
    
    One thing that is very true about this field of discussion is that we
    are always learning.  Sometimes we stop to bask in the new discovery,
    but then we must move on.  That is the nature of growth. 
    
    I appreciate your stand for the Christian perspective.  Please don't
    stop there.  There is much more to the planet and universe than
    the Christian perspective allows.  I have found that, in my opinion,
    an open mind is the best parachute when leaping off the loft peaks
    of entrenched ideaologies.
    
    We have an open mind, how about you?  Perhaps we need to take this
    discussion to another topic.  I would be willing to follow you over
    to Cache::Christian, but the moderators usually writelock most of
    the notes I engage in.  To get a perspective of my back ground do
    a DIR/TITLE=MORGAN *.*, and see what has been entered there before.
    
      Mikie?
     

    Reply to .37;
    
    Avoiding association with evil is understandable.  Perhaps we should
    restate it somewhat along the line of not partaking in evil affairs
    but understanding _what_ makes those things evil and _why_ they exist.
    
    If there weren't certain bacterias on this planet you wouldn't be
    able to digest your food and dead trees wouldn't rot.  Simiarily,
    other bacterias make us sick.  They are all bacterias, they just
    serve different functions.
    
    Having an understanding of _why_ things are what they _are_ is very
    important. 
    
    I'm sure that we would all agree that no one should be involved
    with anything they aren't comfortable with.  B^)
                                                               
      Mikie?

    Re last 20 or so:
    
    There is a great deal of difference between exploring the paranormal
    and being a worshipper of Satan.  For instance, Alburtus Magnus
    was a Christian who was a practicing magician and who became a
    saint.  In fact, Joseph, who was sold into slavery by his brethern,
    became Pharaoh's right-hand man because of his ability to interpret
    dreams -- clearly a paranormal ability that was not at variance
    with God's plan.
    
    Since I'm the originator of the base note, and since I've some
    exposure both to theology and various aspects of the paranormal,
    I believe it's possible for me to make the distinctions.
    
    I become troubled when various activities are advised against because
    they seem to be associated with the Devil (or devils).  Many inventions
    and technical developments are tagged with this -- how many times
    have you heard the phrase "It's an invention of the Devil" applied to
    something the speaker doesn't like?  Everything from the telescope
    through television has had at least some people using that tag.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    
    
    Mikie,
                              
    (I wrote 121.37)
    
    THANK YOU!!!  You seem to have understood the meaning of my response.
    I can't tell you how my heart sank when I read 121.42 and found
    that Mike agreed with me.  He didn't seem to catch my drift.  I
    am a former religion teacher myself, but that is not where I was
    comeing from.  What I was saying is that I am afraid of Satan. 
    I realize that this fear makes me more vulnerable to his ability
    to do me harm, but I think that it also makes me much safer than
    those who do use seances and the like as a source or recreation.
    I do believe that God (my concept of the almighty) has in fact
    designated some people to use these devices in order to help a fellow
    human being.  I also firmly believe that I am not one of these people.
    I suspect that those who are so designated also share in my healthy
    respect for the unknown.  They probably are given something special
    to counter balance this fear.  Probably some mixture of courage,
    knowledge and foolheartyness (as I mentioned above - I'm the chicken
    of the bunch).
    
    So don't go 'round thinking that my opinion springs from my religous
    background.  It has more to do with my congenital back problems ...
    ( of the yellow stripe variety! ). 
     
                                                                       

    Re .53, earlier:
    
    Although I'm not a moderator, I'd like gently to suggest that all
    of us keep our emotions in check [there's another note on this
    elsewhere in this conference concerning that].  We have not reached
    the point of name-calling [yet]; however, I've seen individual notes
    in other conferences escalate into verbal barrages where a lot of
    heat and little light is generated.
    
    Let's all agree that the road[s] to enlightenment require are made
    easier by seeking after truth rather than pointing out the motes
    in others' eyes.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    
    P.S.:  For those who have come in late to  this discussion, I suggest
    that a [re]reading of the base note and the first few responses
    might be instructive.
    

    Re .55:
    
    I take no offense; however --
    
    >"When you harbor philosophical concepts or religious beliefs orideas
    >or theories of one kind or another ....
    
    Not only are you as guilty as I of doing these things, but so is
    every human being who isn't brain-dead.  Try _not_ to hold these
    things.  For instance, the old phrase, "The gostack distims the
    doshes," inherently carries with it certain concepts/beliefs because
    of the structure of the language.  Although we may not know what
    a gostack or a dosh is, or what the process of distimming entails,
    we know that "distim" is a verb, that "gostack" and "dosh" are nouns,
    and that somehow the existence of or presence of the gostack somehow
    is affecting the doshes.
    
    Of course, the state of Nirvana makes thought/imagry/etc. unnecessary:
    to the extent that's a Heaven, its antithesis would be a Hell.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

RE: .56
    
    The phrase in question is from (perhaps not originally) one of the
    classics of science fiction (circa 1950).  If I don't misrember
    it too badly, some children find some "educational toys" sent back
    from the far future as some random test objects.  The toys teach
    them about the "fourth dimension".  When they truely understand
    what the phrase means, they learn to step out into the other dimension.
    Their parents -- being to set in their thinking -- are unable to
    learn the lessons that the toys provide and are unable to follow.
    
    Have I gotten it confused with another story Steve?  I *think* that
    it was entitled some variant of the phrase.  Was it by Lewis Padget?
    I think that it is a rather "deep" story for the time.
    
    				Topher

    Re .58:
    
    Topher, you're thinking of two stories, both thought-provoking.
    
    The Lewis Padgett (actually Henry Kuttner) story was "Mimsy Were
    the Borogroves," where the toys sent from the "future" (actually
    an extra-planar world) hit in two spots.  One in the mid-20th Century,
    where it affected the children; the other, back into Victorian times
    where "Alice" found them (the girl for whom _Alice In Wonderland_
    was written), and although "Lewis Carroll" (Rev. Chas L. Dodgson)
    couldn't fully comprehend what the stories were trying to teach,
    he was able to pick up enough to write "The Jabberwocky," which
    the 20th-Century children used to help them reach the "future."
    A good read.  
    
    "The dostak distims the doshes" came from another story, "The Dostak
    and the Doshes," whose author slips my mind at the moment (I believe
    it appeared either in _Fantasia Mathematica_ or _Mathematical Magpie_,
    both edited by Clifton Fadiman) in which the sentence was used to
    show a set of conditions -- a mind-set, as it were -- that allowed
    as person to travel between very similar continua by means of a
    viewpoint shift.
    
    Both stories are thought provoking.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

RE: .59
    
    You're right Steve (well almost).  From your reminder of the story
    concept, I remembered where I had read it.  It's by Miles J. Breuer,
    M.D. and is entitled "The Gostak and the Doshes".  It appeared (among
    other places) in _Great Science Fiction by Scientists_ edited by
    Groff Conklin (I have a special place in my heart for this book,
    its the first SF book I bought myself, although I had been reading
    my father's SF and the public libraries' SF for some time -- this
    one was *mine*).
    
    The story opens with the paragraph --
    	Let the reader suppose that somebody states: "The gostak distims
    	the doshes."  You do not know what this means, nor do I.  But
    	if we assume that it is English, we know that the "doshes" are
    	"distimmed" by a "gostak."  If, moreover, doshes are galloons,
        we know that some galloons are distimmed by the gostak.  And
    	so we may go on, and so we often do go on. -- Unknown writer
    	quoted by Ogden and Richards, in "The Meaning of Meanings",
    	Harcourt Brace & Co., 1923; also by Wlater N Polakov in "Man
    	and his Affairs", Wiliams and Wilkins, 1925.
    
    The phrase did not provide the doorway, rather the movement was
    simply provided by intense concentration on imagining that the
    the world be viewed from a perspective where the spacial axis are
    rotated.  Like walking along a path with the tops of trees "brushing"
    the moon, and imagining that the moon is moving and the trees are
    standing still.
    
    The author tries and succeeds at the experiment and finds himself
    in a world very much like ours.  He lives there for some months
    quite happily until an incomprehensible (to him) slogan starts
    appearing (I'll give you three guesses which slogan).  The natives
    all seem to understand it but no one can explain it to him.  The
    country ends up going to war over it.  His incomprehension is
    interpreted as treason.  He is on his way to execution when he manages
    to regain the "trick" of viewpoint shift and finds himself back
    in his (ours? maybe) familiar universe.
    
    The story was first published in 1930 in Amazing Stories.
    
    I *think* that Ogden (one of the original sources) is the semanticist
    who discovered that English, of all world languages, had a special
    facility with verb use such that only 16 verbs are needed.  He used
    this insight to invent a version of English called Basic English.
    This consists of a simple grammar, 750 general purpose words, 150
    broad area words (e.g., commerce has a set of 150 words, science
    another 150 words, etc.) plus 100 more narrow area words (e.g.,
    100 more words for botony, 100 for physics, 100 for Christianity,
    etc.).  Thus any particular area can be written in, using somewhat
    stilted language, but comprehensibly to any English speaker, in
    just 1000 words of vocabulary.  I have a Basic English Dictionary
    of Science.  There exits Basic English translations of various works,
    such as the Bible, etc.  Basic English can be learned by anyone
    in 4 weeks (or so Ogden claims) -- a little more if the teacher
    and the student do not share any language.
    
    				Topher

    The following is extracted from and copyright (c) by the _Middlesex News_
    and should not be reprinted without permission.  Comments will follow:
    
         SHIRLEY MACLAINE'S OUT ON A BROKEN LIMB, SAYS LOCAL RELIGIOUS
                                 FIGURE
    
    By Edward N. Albro
    (News Staff Writer)
    
    	Rev. R. Gary Heikkila's deep stentorian tones give him away.
    	With his voice booming from behind his deep red pulpit, with
    his hands gesturing dramatically, it's clear that Heikkila was once
    an actor.                                                         
    	Perhaps that is why the minister of the Mission Evangelical
    Congregational Church seemed so involved in his topic for Thursday
    night's midweek sermon, "The Danger of Being Out on a Limb with
    Shirley MacLaine's Religion."
    	Maclaine, the Oscar-award winning actress who says she was a
    pirate and a Buddhist monk in former lives, is being used as an
    instrument for demonic forces, Heikkila told his audienceof 15
    parishoners.	"I just feel she is being used as an instrument
    to propogate a fiction," Heikkilas said after the service.  "She
    probably has had supernatural experiences, but I would be absolutely
    convinced that they were from a demonic force.
    	In a series of best-selling autobiographies and a national
    television show entitled "Out on a Limb," MacLaine said that she
    had lived previous lives as a Greek oracle and as a resident of
    the lost continent of Atlantis.  The actress said she saw her previous
    lives through meditation and accupuncture and had traveled outside
    her body.
    	"I thought that it was important for you to hear the other side
    of the story," Heikkila told his audience.  While he said he doesn't
    want to attack MacLaine personally, Heikkila also told his listeners
    the actress is, "out on a broken limb."
    	Heikkila has good reason to be personally interested in MacLaine's
    story.  About 25 years ago, the minister met MacLaine while he was
    struggling to break into Hollywood as an actor.  He left his job
    as a Tennessee minister to audition for the part of Jesus Christ
    in a film of "The Greatest Story Ever Told."
    	When the movie fell through and Heikkila only managed bit parts
    as Roman Catholic priests or ministers in cinematic burial scenes,
    he returned to the ministry.
    	But he remains concerned about the people he left behind in
    Hollywood.  He quoted to parishoners from a National Inquirer report
    that movie and television celebrities Linda Evans, Richard Chamberlain,
    and Mike Farrell had fallen under the spell of a self-proclaimed
    psychic named J. Z. Knight.  Knight claims to speak for Ramtha,
    a 35,000-year-old spirit from the lost continent of Atlantis.
    	"I believe it is very possible to become trapped in all sorts
    of depression and obsession," through interest in the occult, he
    said.
    	The occult presents a risk for Heikkila's non-celebrity
    parishoners, he told them.  Mail advertisements from Knight offer
    meditation tapes from Ramtha which contain subliminat messages,
    he said.  "Behind it there are thousands of coded messages."  But
    after the service, Heikkila said he does not know what the messages
    are.
    	Heikkila said any interest in reincarnation and the occult can
    lead to "spiritual bondage."  Interest in what he calls "New Age"
    philosophy, interest in Eastern religion and the use of mind-altering
    drugs are all "a tacit opening of the doors of your mind to the
    intrusion of supernatural forces," he said.  "There is the reality
    of supernatural demonic activity in occult experience in occultic
    experience."
    	The involvement of MacLaine and other celebrities in the occult
    is particularly dangerous because other people give the topic more
    respect, Heikkila said.  Pointing to MacLaine's belief that she
    can talk to animals and trees, he said, "a few years ago, if you
    walked down the strees and tried to talk to a tree, yopu would be
    put in Wheeler Three (a psychiatric ward)."
    	Now, he said, the idea is given credence because of MacLaine's
    involvement.
    	"Do you think Satan comes as King Kong or Godzilla?" Heikkila
    asked.  "He always comes beautifully, he comes seductively.
    	"I think in the world today there is a cancer because people
    have lost hope and without their hope they'll turn to anyone and
    anything," he said.  "We are blissfully ignorant of the strategems
    of Satan until we are caught in his clutches."
    
                                  ##### 
    
    My comments:
    
    	I don't doubt the sincerity of Rev. Heikkila.  This is, however,
    clearly a case of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.  Note
    that he quotes _The National Enquirer_ as if he believes it to be
    a reliable source.  Note also that he says are "thousands of coded
    messages" of a subliminal nature on the Ramtha tapes, but that he
    doesn't know what they are.  He is "convinced" that MacLaine's being
    used in some fashions by "demonic force"; that is, he has an opinion.
    	I, for one, have urged caution in occult experiments.  Since
    I have more than a layman's knowledge in these areas, I still urge
    caution; however, it's far different from being cautious to being
    condemnatory, as some critics would have it.
    	Qabballists, for one, are both seekers and devoutly religious.
    Other examples of clergy who have seriously investigated the occult
    I've noted earlier, and I could add others.  "Occult" doesnt have
    to equal "Satanic," though it could, under some circumstances, which
    is why the base note.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

	I believe that God and Satan are really buddies. For example
God created food and made it delicious for mankind. Ah but Satan created
Cholestrol, fat, calories, and hardening of the arteries. I can see them
laughing together as they watch us miserable mortals.

    An extremist condemning extremists?
    
    Maybe I'm just being extreme.  ;^)

    Re .63:
    
    Humor aside, I'd say it's more like a layman criticizing something
    he [in this case] has insufficient knowledge of.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    It has long been a tenant of some branches of Christian thought
    that extraordinary powers and abilities (including such seemingly
    mundane abilities as extraordinarly good logical facilities) are
    the work of the Devil.  This goes back to the very early days of
    Christianity, see, e.g., accounts of Peter's (?) long time harasment
    and final psychic murder of Simon the Magician.
    
    The reasons for this can be traced, if you wish to analyze things
    along these lines, to politics pure and simple.  Christianity, early
    Christianity especially, had an important selling point.  No, not
    forgiveness nor eternal life -- the promise of being able to work
    miracles.  All you had to do was believe devoutly enough, and reach
    a high enough state of grace and you could work miracles -- no
    knowledge or effort required.  The proof was available, many of
    the Christian missionaries were (and are, for that matter) miracle
    workers although they frequently demonstrated an almost total lack
    of education -- even in their own faith and its history.
    
    That's fine as far as it went, but their were other's out there
    both religious and semi-secular who claimed to work miracles (for
    the most part, however, they claimed that some type of occult knowledge
    or training was necessary).  And indeed, they did perform much the
    same miracles as the Christians -- healings, levitations,
    transformations, etc.
    
    How to explain them?
    
    Obviously they were the pawns of the devil, knowingly or unknowingly
    helping the principle/principal of evil.  So much was *obvious*
    since didn't they interfere with the effectiveness of the sacred
    "hook" by which many were saved?
    
    This fit in with folk-belief, always ripe for absorption into Christian
    ritual and dogma, that evil spirits (the opponents of humanity)
    had great powers (since they were generally the transformed gods
    of other tribes, or full fledged gods in their own right/rite).
    The devil and his minions could convenientlytake the place of the
    evil spirits of these other religions, and anyone who worked miracles
    who was not *obviously* a Christian holy(wo)man took the fear half
    of the much feared and respected Shaman.
    
    Add to this the idea (perhaps a slightly later one) that you scored
    points in heaven for avoiding temptations which you didn't have
    because you were ignorant of them (i.e., the less you know and the
    less you think the better off you are); and you come up with much
    of the current attitudes.
    
    Personally, I think that evil/Evil is no more likely to manifest
    in the occult or paranormal than in any other source of power. 
    Power corrupts whether that power is the ability to predict the
    future or to pull the trigger on a gun.  Ignorance weakens you rather
    than shielding you.
    
    				Topher

    Re .65:
    
    Topher, in the account of Genesis, the "forbidden fruit" (_not_
    designated an apple) was from the Tree of Knowledge, so the answer
    to your question [-<Was knowledge the sacred fruit of the garden?>-]
    is "yes."
    
    I believe some uneasiness about knowledge of the paranormal variety
    predates Christianity by more than a thousand years -- as evidenced
    in some of the OT strictures, for instance.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr. 

Re: .65

Very well put.  I couldn't have said it better (or at all) myself.

		Dave

    Re: .66 & .65
    
    But what kind of knowledge was it.  There are many different forms
    and types of knowledge.  It was the knowledge to know the difference
    between good and evil.  
    
    Prior to that Adam & Eve were sinless, they didn't know sin so how
    could they sin.  The fruit of knowledge between good and evil opened
    there eyes and they knew they were naked.  Then they dawned their
    designer leaves.
    
    The Christian Church has a "hang-up" about phenomena from
    Satan/Lucifer.  God originally created these things of another
    dimension or spiritual world for His purpose.  Satan has twisted
    it around to confuse man into worshipping him and becoming
    separate from God.  
    
    Glad to see some things have cooled off a little here.  I've been
    a good boy and have been a non-contributer the last week or so.
    
    Mike
    

    The latest issue of _Fate_ has a disturbing and perplexing article
    on Satanism and Child Abuse.  The article lists reportsd of children
    who say that they've been involved in Satanic rites and have been
    exploited in various ways, including being photographic subjects
    in kiddie porn.  The interesting part of the article is that the
    children are relatively young (early school); and similar reports
    have come from children located in various parts of the United States;
    i.e., it's _not_ a localized phenomenon.  Child psychologists are
    cvonvinced that the children are not making up the stories, after
    interviewing them; however, no conclusive evidence has been turned
    up on the allegations.  Nothing, therefore, is definitely known. 
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    I guess Satan is as good an excuse as any for the crude, lewd
    and stupid to exploit vulnerable children.  Just as God is as 
    good an excuse as any for the greedy and power-hungry to exploit
    the vulnerable seeker.  When will humanity assume responsibility
    for our own actions? 

    Re .70:
    
    > ...                  When will humanity assume responsibility
    >for our own actions?
    
    Any excuse is an excuse.  The athiest, the nominally religious,
    the agnostic, the fundamentalist, and the fanatic can all rationalize
    what they want to do based on whatever philosophical viewpoint they
    happen to have.
    
    The motivation of an action, however, is an _individual_ act of
    responsibility: any decision is an action.  When Jim Jones had the
    poisoned Kool-Aid made available at the Jonestown "Massacre," the
    inhabitants (or at least the majority of them) went along with the
    action -- _and that was their decision_.
    
    There are many exploiters, be they claiming to representing God,
    Satan, or Yog-Sothoth.  There are also charlatans in the paranormal
    movement who promise much and deliver little or nothing.  I've "noted"
    this elsewhere in this conference.
    
    Earlier, I've mentioned why someone might wish to become a Satanist
    (generally a lust for power or desire for revenge); even if you
    don't believe that  Satan exists, this does not make such people
    one whit less dangerous.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    And now for a public service announcement:
    
       	ATTEND.  You know who you are.  What is this?
        Flaying dogs and such -- Is God to live in a
    	dog?  No!  But the highest are of us. Cease!
        To break to your will, those who do not submit
        to you, is of no interest to the One Ever
        Defiant; rather break those who demand that
        you submit. Have a nice day.
    
    The preceding message was a public service announcement
    prepared by Kali Yuga Test Laboratories in cooperation
    with the Temple of Set.
    
    We now return to your normally scheduled program.  |^] 
    
    Pat
    
                           

    RE: .42
    
    This note is not for Religious discussion.  There is a note for
    that.
    
    My last word in response to the Bible comments is, PLEASE find a
    way to tolerate other peoples viewpoints.  There are many people
    around the world with different beliefs than yours, who think they
    are on the right path just as deeply as you feel about your own
    beliefs.  Those "other people" have as much right as you to their
    on way, without someone coming uninvited to correct them.
    
    "nuff said"

re -.1

As I said to someone before:  Religion is like a pair of shoes.  You can go 
a long way with ones that fit "just right", but not everyone is a size 8.

    Re .74, .74:
    
    I think that .42 began to understand this, judjung from context
    of that note.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    Well, since this note deteriorated significantly from its original
    subject and my knowledge of Satanic worship is severely limited
    I'll just add this for what it is worth.
    
    I was just reading this note and one of the Mikes (the Bible thumper)
    wanted an example of a translation error in the Bible.  I have an
    anecdote that may suffice.
    
    My friend had a girlfriend who was a student of (ancient) Hebrew at 
    Wellesley College.  Naturally, for their homework they translated 
    passages from the Bible.  One day after class she approached the
    professor for some help.  
    
    She had compared her translation with a common translation (King
    James?) translation and had some confusion.  The common translation 
    said "And there was no on left in the city" (since my memory is not 
    perfect this is a paraphrasing of the actual text)  He asked her
    what she thought the original Hebrew said.
    
    She said, "And there was no one left in the city, not even one to
    piss on the wall."
    
    "That is correct", he said.
    
    Hardly an earth shaking change.  Others changes may be more important.
    Ancient Hebrew and Aramaic are dead languages today and no one can
    accurately translate them.  This is what amuses me most about bible
    quoters who *know* God's word.  Another thing is that the oldest
    bible found is centuries after Christ.  The Bible is one of the
    oldest games of "telephone" still being played.
    
    Stan

    Reply to .76, Shursky,
    
    Please reference Rex::Religion, specifically topic 70.
    
    Pissing upon the wall is, I think, a reference to salves taken from
    other nations.

re:< Note 121.76 by MCIS2::SHURSKY >
                      -< Error of biblical proportions. >-

>    Another thing is that the oldest
>    Bible found is centuries after Christ.  The Bible is one of the
>    oldest games of "telephone" still being played.

True... and even the ancient texts are extremely 'tarnished'... the Hassidic
Rabbis thought that the old texts were too much for the Gentiles, so some
things were changed by the ten Rabbis that did the original Greek translation
for Ptolomy II. 

						-- Mike

    Since the subject (or one aspect of it) has surfaced in Note 739,
    a few more thoughts:
    
    Traditionally, Satan, in his role of Prince of Darkness, uses lies,
    deceit, confusion, and treachery as weapons; and so do his minions.
    One of the methods can be to convince folk that Satanists either
    don't exist or are harmless cranks.
    
    In my opinion, this is made easier by some people not weanting to believe
    that there are evil people -- particularly organizations of evil
    people -- in the world.  The people trying to work white witchcraft
    who declaim loudly, "Witchcraft is _not_ Satanic," are blinding
    themselves to the fact that while the majority of witches in fact
    do not worship Satan, a small percentage of witches might.  By refusing
    to acknowledge in their own minds that such things as Satanic witches
    do in fact exist, they may be actinbg as a shield behind which
    Satanists can operate.
    
    Likewise, in my opinion, things are made easier for the true Satanist
    by the subset of Christianity that equates _any_ nonChristian activity
    with active Devil worship.  Those folk who call Wiccans and other
    Pagan faiths Satanists are expending a lot of effort on the wrong
    targets and in so doing are taking a lot of attention away from
    the true Satanist.
    
    Fear, mistrust, and paranoia thus affect (or better, infect) both
    Pagan and Christian communities.  Who comes out ahead in such a
    situation?  Only the Satanist.
    
    To the Pagan community:  try to accept the possibility that there
    are those, worshiping an evil being that you might not believe in,
    who have perverted your rites and who use pariphenalia similar or
    identical to some of yours.  That some of these are dangerous and
    evil people who do not restrict their activities to Christians.
    
    To the Christian community: try to recognize that many of those
    who call themselves witches in fact are _not_ Satanists; no more
    than Buddhists or Hinduists are.  You might consider them misguided
    or erroneous; however, that's a far cry from them worshipping Satan.
    
    To both communities: you can teach each other what to watch out
    for to the other group, based on your own knowledge and understandings.
                                                      
    Division, mistrust, and hate: who profits from these?
    
    As I said in the base note: it's there; watch out for it.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    RE: .79 (Steve)
    
    > Division, mistrust, and hate: who profits from these?  <
    
    
    The KKK.
    
    
    John M.

    
    
    Re: .79 & .80
    
    	or your local organized religion. (fleeing the Evil in the world
    	in search of a safe haven from spiritual attack. people tend
    	to run to the only spitual place of defense they know or remember.)
                                                                         
    craig

From:    L.a. Hussey 
To:      All                                      Msg #376, 13-Sep-88 05:57pm
Subject: Important Notice!!
 
This is mostly for Brad, but everybody else should pay attention too,
since the whole community needs to be aware of this.
 
From Don Frew:
GERALDO IS PLANNING A SATANISM SHOW FOR HALLOWEEN EVE.  He is gathering
footage and interviews in the most underhanded possible fashion.  Don
Frew, CoG Public Information Officer (and incoming First Officer)
recommends that NOBODY speak to Geraldo or his agents at all.  Geraldo
has a history of taking footage and words out of context, and as the show
(which will be called "The Satanic Menace in America") is entirely about
Satanists, to have any Wiccan presence at all on the show will only be
a source of confusion, according to Don.  Please be vigilant, and 
encourage all the people in your local community to be careful also.
If it is possible for this message to get to Selena Fox and Laurie
Cabot, it would be real useful.  On behalf of Don, thanks very much.
 
B*B
Leigh Ann

    The Geraldo Rivera show is discussed in detail in 896.*
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

	While fishing the other day my brother and I beached the canoe to take
a look around (and give our aching butts a rest.)   Right near the water we 
found a building, it was open on one side so we took a peek in.  On the floor
was a cirlce with a star (pentagram?) in it, there was also an "n" marked
on the outside of the circle over one of the points, I think it was to 
designate north.  There were some small gourds around with burnt candels in 
them.   Is this a satanic or evil symbol or is this symbol used by other
non-evil groups?  Is this something to be concerned about?

Thanks
Mike

    Re .85 (Mike):
    
    Pentagrams can be used by beneficient as well as malovelent folk.
    Usually, pentagrams used in the more beneficial kinds of rites have
    one point oriented eastwards; North is frequently a less wholesome
    orientation -- however, without more details than that, it's hard
    to say.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

RE: Steve

	What other details would help in determining it's use?

Mike

    Re .87 (Mike):
    
    Any figures in the pentagram, any writing or other symbols around
    it, the color of the candles, residue of any incenses, and other
    residues (e.g., dried blood).  If chalked in, possibly the color
    of the chalk.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    Re .87 (Mike):
    
    Any figures in the pentagram, any writing or other symbols around
    it, the color of the candles, residue of any incenses, and other
    residues (e.g., dried blood).  If chalked in, possibly the color
    of the chalk.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.


RE: Steve

     The pentagram was written with white chalk and there were no symols or
writings in or around it (other then the N outsie the circle about one of the
points.  The candles where white and were in small gourds or squashes 
(they were dried up by the time I seen them.)  It looked like there were 6 
candles one at each point and one in the center.  I didn't notice any incense
or residue.  There were many empty bear cans and the remains of a fire outside.
This made me think it was probably some kids messing around (still not
a nice thought.)  

Mike

    Re .89 (Mike):
    
>It looked like there were 6 candles one at each point and one in the center.    
> ...
>..There were many empty beer cans and the remains of a fire outside.
>This made me think it was probably some kids messing around (still not
>a nice thought.)    
 
    I concur.  A candle in the center and evidence the "participants,"
    if that's what they were, were outside the pentagram is inconsistent
    with the way pentagrams of that sort are normally used.  Kids messing
    around seems on the most likely explanation.
                               
    Steve Kallis, Jr.