Conference hydra::dejavu

    In a way, that's a tough question, though in one sense it can have
    an easy answer to JudeoChristians and Moslems: if God created
    everything, then everything, including "power" ultimately comes
    from God.
    
    Good rhetoric, but it doesn't explain very much (e.g., you could
    say "Electric power comes from God; but if you were an E.E., you'd
    be more interested in generators, transformers, and thermodynamics).
     I tried to cover some of thios is Mechanisms I and II, but discussions
    seemed to lead elsewhere.  So I'll try to create a framework.
    
    Power can be intrinsic (generated from within) ort extrinsic (tapped
    from outside the self).  Let's not define what power(s) we're talking
    about, for the moment, and just stick with the model.  Extrinsic
    powers require that the wielder has some means of manipulating them
    (electronic example: the base of a transistor or the grid of an
    electron tube), using really minuscule penergies to direct much
    greater forces.  Intrinsic powers imply a large and unsuspected
    energy source within each of us.
    
    This framework will hold for either parapsychological or supernatural
    (magical) models.
    
    The qabballist, for instance, says his or her powers are extrinsic,
    derived from the various sephira of the Tree.  The Wiccan witch
    will generally speak of extrinsic (and collectively focused) power,
    though often the governing power more or less possesses the High
    Priestess/Priest.  The Voudoun Houngan likewise uses the power of
    the Loas.  The Medieval Sorcerer generally evokes demons and via
    a blasting rod forces them to do his work.
    
    I am less familiar with psiontists, but understand they feel their
    powers are intrinsic (amplification or correction, Topher?).
    
    Hope these things help.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

RE: 85.1

    Since you ask -- I'm not real expert on Psionics, but I've come in
    contact with it occasionally, and from that have formed some strong
    opinions:

    In my experience its rather hard to say anything about people who study
    Psionics (for what it's worth, not much, my guess would be that they
    would be called "Psionisists").

    First off some history:  At the turn of the century, there was a fair
    amount of research in Russia on what was then termed psychical research;
    with official approval, though with only moderate support.  The general
    assumption made was that "psi" (as its now known) operated through some
    kind of electromagnetic wave -- until some experiments were conducted
    which showed pretty conclusively that this just wasn't so.  There was an
    immediate reaction.  If it wasn't electromagnetic, it must be
    "mystical", which is against Dialectic Materialism.  Therefore, anyone
    studying psychical research must be trying to deceive the Russian People.
    Therefore all such study was banned. Some research continued, but
    underground.

    Then in the 50's a French magazine published a story (apparently false)
    that the US Navy was conducting experiments in using telepathy to
    communicate with subs.  Suddenly, the ban was lifted, with the offending
    experiments conveniently forgotten.  Research picked up where it left
    off with an electromagnetic model.  To distinguish their work from that
    occurring in the decadent West, the term Psionics was invented.  The
    approach tends to be an engineering one rather than scientific.  Since
    they feel they are dealing with electromagnetic energy, they feel that
    it should be possible to detect, amplify and direct it.  Gadgets of
    various sorts are popular.

    The term Psionics filtered first into neutral countries, then to US
    allies and finally to the US.

    On the whole, the Psionisists in the Eastern Block tend to be fairly
    good engineers.  Emphasis is on results and to hell with why it works.
    Unfortunately without much theory, and what there is (electromagnetics)
    *wrong* their results are spotty and inconsistent, even compared to the
    rather spotty and inconsistent results of Western parapsychology.

    Much less can be said about the Western Psionisists.  In general they
    are not even very good engineers.  Rather, they are tinkerers.
    Frequently little attempt is even paid to whether or not it really
    works, after all as long as it *might* be working one can keep
    tinkering.

    The outcome of all this is that there is *nothing* you can say about
    all Psionisists except that they all say they are working in Psionics.
    Beyond that they *tend* to like gadgets and talk a lot about "force"
    and "energies" which they may or may not identify with electromagnetism.
    There is no coherent philosophy overall, and most of them, in my
    experience, don't individually have one either.  Frequently they will
    contradict themselves from moment to moment.

    Do Psionic energies come from inside? From outside? Neither? Both?  Ask
    two Psionisists and get at least a dozen different answers strongly
    asserted as absolutly true.

    If you get the impression that I don't think much of Psionics, your
    right.  Of course, I believe firmly in the principal that individuals
    should be judged in their own right.  So this should be taken as a
    general criticism, not to be assumed to apply to any one person.

		Topher

    I guess it's time I put my theories in here.  Ultimately, all power
    comes from God.  Considering my notion of God, that's self evident.
    Put into the shortest possible form, that notion is "All is God".
    
    But of course like Steve said, knowing that computers come from
    God doesn't help me do my job.  I'm more interested in electrical
    charges causing bits to change causing other effects.
    
    Some power comes from yourself.  For example, if I wish to say move
    accross the room, my brain gives the appropriate signals to my muscles
    and moves me accross the room.
    
    Power can come from other people.  It can be freely given (this
    is OK) or stolen (not good).
    
    I see a lot of power comming from the earth.  The obvious
    manifestations are crops growing and volcanos erupting and the
    occurence of earthquakes.  There are more subtle effects too.
    
    There is a lot of energy out there, largly untapped.
    
    /Kathleen
    

    RE: 2  I agree whole-heartedly that there are as many proclaimed
    absolute truths amoung psionics as there are psionisists.  But all
    this whether true or false is a another vehicle to discovery.  Not
    all people are equipped to approach these mysteries in a rigid
    engineering or scientific method so they tinker.  I'm sure there
    is a lot of reinventing the wheel type stuff but I still feel there
    may be some very big discovery because of it.
    
    	One idea I have about power and approach to it is on the idea
    of an all encompassing ether.  In this idea I have built a mental
    model where there are certain conduits to release and control this
    all sorrounding power contained in the ethers.
    
    	A theory I tinkered with is a possible explanation of magnetism
    and electricity.  A magnet being a conduit to this power everywhere.
    Because of the molecular arrangement or allignment within these
    magnetic metals and the priming or kick starting of the magnetics
    flow.  Like a syphon drawing water from one higher potential to
    a lower potential I see the magnet as such.  I carry this idea on
    thru to electricity as in generating electricity by the interuption
    of magnetic flux lines.  It appears to me that the flow of electrons
    is a catylitic reaction brought about by the tapping of this
    sorrounding force or ethers power potential.  So what does this
    all have to do with this discussion?  I think the source of power
    is extrinsic in this all encompassing ocean of ethers.  And this
    is also the basis for a lot of psionics ideas.  The use of psionics
    to control and guide this flow of powers all around us.  To use
    something as small an electrical potential as a thought to control
    much greater power makes it look like the power may all come from
    within.  I think we in this computer business see the use of small
    amounts of power to control great amounts everyday.
    
    	I hope this was a clear explanation of my idea.  Please give
    me some feedback on this.
    
    							Jorge'

Re: First paragraph of .5

    I strongly agree that the strict scientific approach is not the only way
    to explore these areas.  But one must be aware of the limitations of
    each method.  (Scientists tend to understand the limits of the
    scientific method, but frequently to ascribe those limits as absolute,
    applicable to all the ways of approaching truth).

    The Psionisists tend (remember: this generalization may not apply to all
    individuals in the category) to:

	    - Exceed the limits of what can be done with the methods they
		use.

	    - Deceive themselves that they *are* doing science.

    Tinkering is a process of "randomly" trying things out.  This works only
    if you accept limits on your randomness: in general there are infinitely
    more meaningless things you can do than meaningful.  Either you must
    start with a "gadget" which is well known and make small random changes
    to it to see what will happen; or you must allow a reliable theory limit
    what you try.  You must make sure you have not gone too far beyond what
    is known.  Otherwise its like looking for a particular person by pushing
    a pin blindfolded into a globe of the earth (I'm not talking about a
    form of divination here), as opposed to, for example  starting where
    they frequently hangs out and searching around that neighborhood.

    The problem is worse in this area than in most for two reasons:

	    1) It is easy to convince yourself that something has happened
		when nothing in fact has.

	    2) It is easy to mis-attribute the source of an effect when one
		*does* occur.  In this area, what we *want* to be true
		*becomes* true, but only for ourselves.  If I believe that I
		can't use psi to earn money, then I probably can't, but that
		doesn't stop people less effected by the Anglo-cultural
		feeling that money is dirty.

    The tendency for the Psionisists to use electromagnetism as their model,
    when it can so easily be shown to be inappropriate in so many ways,
    makes things worse -- in effect they are avoiding the neighborhoods
    where the person they are looking for is likely to be.

    By externalizing so aggressively, the Psionisists tend to block, or at
    least retard, any element of personal psychic or spiritual growth.  But
    by failing to come to terms with the limitations of external reality,
    they are unlikely accomplish much on that level either.

    If this were a completely private affair it would be harmless and even
    to be encouraged as good recreation, no worse than collecting baseball
    cards.  But by announcing and propagating their "discoveries" they
    distract others from more fruitful pursuits: the scientist thinks that
    their work represents the available evidence for the paranormal and,
    quite properly rejects it; the lay-person is mislead by the claims and
    frequently ends up confused about "real" science; the spiritual/psychic
    explorer gets tied up in spurious *external* claims (the last group may
    overlap with either of the other two, of course).

    Science can be subtle and difficult, but a surprising amount requires
    only common sense and careful thought.  As a whole, the Psionisists
    show an amazing lack of these two qualities.

    By the way -- none of this should be taken as meaning to discourage
    anyone from playing with Psionics gadgets, I've been thinking of
    building a Hieronymus machine myself.  Just don't take it *too*
    seriously, treat it as a game -- like watching a stage magician.

	    Topher

    re: .6
    
    What is a Hieronymus machine?  Could also list some other psionic
    gadgets?
    
    		Dave

    I moved this from a base note (86.0) to this response as it seemed
    more appropriate.
    
    		Dave
    
                <<< KRYSTL::DAA0:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DEJAVU.NOTE;1 >>>
                             -< Psychic Phenomena >-
================================================================================
Note 86.0                      It's Gotta' Be...                      No replies
SCORPI::MORGAN "MIKIE"                               12 lines  23-FEB-1986 01:46
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    I think that power comes from outside and can be channeled through
    a human, other animal and possible even plants.  I also find it
    easy to believe that if the planet can generate/focus so called
    natural forces then it may be able to generate/focus so called 
    magical/mysticial forces.  Unfortunately we may not be evolved far
    enough at this time to really utilize (and I mean effectively utilize)
    some of these forces.  Another thought that comes to mind is that
    we may be using these forces in sub/unconsious ways effectively
    on a daily basis, even without a good understanding of what we are
    doing.  Anyway I think "power" comes from outside.
    
                                   (*)
    

    
    Re 85.2
    
    >Since you ask -- I'm not real expert on Psionics ....
    
    Er, Topher, you misread me.  I weas referring to the prectitioners
    of parapsychological operations --- the telepaths, telekineticists,
    etc., rather than those who do Psionic machines.  Should I call
    'em Espers?  If I call them parapsychologists, I'm confusing them
    with those who study the phenomena.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    
    P.S.:  The distinction is to separate them from witches and magicians.
    
    SKjr
    

RE: 85.9

    In the words of Emily Latelle "Oh! ... That's very different! ... Never
    mind."  (Unless you have DECTalk running and properly programmed you'll
    have to imagine the voice).

    To answer the question you were really asking, then --

    This is an even more diverse group than Psioniststs.  Parapsychologists
    study a wide range of different people, but there are roughly speaking
    three groups: 1) Unselected subjects, (2) Selected subjects,
    (3) Psychics.

    The first group is basically "just people".  Many are the same
    population of "freshman college students" that are used so heavily in
    psychology.  By far the greatest amount of work in parapsychology uses
    such groups as subjects.  Naturally, they tend to have a very wide range
    of opinions about the paranormal, including, of course, "there ain't no
    such thing".

    Sometimes a more or less random selection of people are put through a
    screening process to select those who do well on parapsychological
    tests.  Subjects who are selected this way are known as (amazingly
    enough :-) "selected subjects".  The "screening process" may simply be a
    previous experiment.  Sometimes these people are surprised that they do
    above average and sometimes not.  In the latter case they sometimes have
    strong beliefs about the nature and limitations of their abilities.

    Finally, "psychics" are people who are chosen for experiments because
    they explicitly believe that they have certain abilities, and it is the
    purpose of the experiments to test those abilities.  Psychics almost
    always have strong beliefs about the nature and limitations of their
    abilities.  They have many different names for themselves, depending on
    their beliefs.  They may refer to themselves as psychics, mediums,
    clairvoyants, healers, priests or priestesses, readers, gurus, witches
    or magicians (I'm sure I've left out many common categories).  In any
    of these categories they may have picked up some terminology from
    parapsychology (e.g., telepathy, clairvoyance, psychokinesis, psi,
    etc.), although they rarely use it in the same way as
    parapsychologists.

    Sounds like I'm going to beg off the question and say "I can't give you
    any single answer", doesn't it?  Surprise!  I *will* give you a fairly
    direct answer.  All the proceeding was simply to say that it's not that
    simple to separate "practitioners of parapsychological operations" from
    other "users of power".  The various forms of "psi" are how *we*
    (parapsychologists) classify phenomena, not necessarily how the
    "practitioners" we study do.  For example, I may call what a psychic
    subject is doing "clairvoyance" while they may say that they are
    "communing with their spirit guide".

    Before giving you my answer (cliffhangers, anyone?) I'll have to redo
    your classification scheme a bit.  You divide the "sources of power"
    into two categories "internal" and "external".  I'll have to divide
    them into three.  The first is "inherent", which corresponds roughly to
    your "internal".  The second I'll call "directed".  This is when the
    "power" is seen as coming from outside, but it is channeled through the
    users.  They focus, direct and control it.  The third category is
    "instigative".  This is when the power is seen as completely external to
    the user.  The user is simply the instigator of the force which then
    operates separate from their "self" and from their control.

    There are really two cases of the instigative.  The first case is where,
    though the instigator no longer has control, their body becomes a tool
    of the external agency (e.g., a trance medium).  The second case is
    where the power remains external to the instigators body as well as to
    their immediate control (e.g., a ritual magician, or an herbalist).  I
    won't need to use this last level of classification here, so I won't
    try to think up any clever names.

    Parapsychologists generally work from the assumption that their
    subject's abilities are either inherent or directed (I won't discuss
    here why that assumption is made).  Another way of putting this is that
    what matters to the parapsychologist is that the "proximate cause" (to
    use a philosophical term) is the subject, whatever the "ultimate cause."
    The limits of the ability are therefore the human limits, psychological
    or physical, of the subjects.

    A number of parapsychologists have noted that, in sharp contrast to
    this, highly successful subjects almost universally classify the source
    of their abilities as directed or instigative.  This is even true of
    most of those subjects who can be shown to be deceiving themselves.
    What is important to the subjects is that, what/whoever the proximate
    cause, they themselves are not the ultimate cause.

    Batchelder has developed a theory from this observation.  He believes
    that a universal or almost universal human characteristic is fear of
    sole responsibility for psi.  This fear blocks the expression of psi
    abilities (or of subtle abilities which *appear* to be psi).  In order
    to successfully use psi, therefore, a person must displace or, at the
    least, share the responsibility with an outside agency.  This theory
    does not, of course, say that the abilities *are* inherent, and that
    all the psychics are deceiving themselves.  It only says that, whether
    they are right or wrong, people who believe that psi is a purely
    inherent ability will have trouble using it.  This theory is still
    controversial in parapsychology.

    There -- aren't you sorry you asked?

		Topher

    Re 85.10:
    
    Sorry top disappoint you; I'm not sorry I asked; it's good to get
    different perspectives.
    
    For further stuff on Psionics, I opened Note 86 so that subject
    doesn't clutter up this'un.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.