Conference hydra::dejavu

re -.1    I guess there are things man was not meant to know....

Sorry but I couldn't resist.  :-)

John

 Tarot readings may range from the trivial to the highly detailed.
                                                                  
 I would like to relate an experience I had: when I was a student  one  of  my 
 fellow  students  would occasionally give Tarot readings.  She had the sitter 
 shuffle and lay out the cards and  then  she  discussed  each  card  and  its 
 possible meaning. Then she gave an overall interpretation.
                                                           
 In  my  case  she  described my future career extremely accurately (though at 
 that time I didn't know it).
 
 Did she tell the  future?  or  did  she  read  my  state  of  mind  and  make 
 predictions that embedded themselves in my mind? Did my innate drive, coupled 
 with the fact that that prediction was acceptable lead to  it  becoming  self 
 fulfilling?
 
 I now  find  that  I  can read Tarot for myself: I use the cards as a sort of 
 self analysis tool, and use the session to resolve problems I am experiencing 
 and then give myself direction.
 
 /. Ian .\
 
 PS  (1) I don't claim to be "psychic" - I might relate some other experiences 
 I have had elsewhere in this file if I get the time.
 
 (2)  at that time I was planning on becoming an astronomer: after the reading 
 my career took a new direction gradually leading me into computers,  though I 
 must admit that I "got into" computers whilst a graduate student at the Royal 
 Greenwich Observatory - I was still planning to be an astronomer!

My experience with Tarot has been that the most accurate predictions are the
"generalized trends" ones.  For inatance, after a long bout of celibacy, I'd
just met my (to-be) fiancee when I had a Tarot reading, the reader asked me
who my new romantic interest was.

My fiancee was given a Tarot reading where the reader said (approximately)
"In the very near future, a younger [than her] man will express a romantic
interest in you."  Twenty minutes later, the event occurred.

In afdition to being used as a "future-signpost" device, some mystics take
Jung's thoughts on the matter seriously and use the cards as a method of
contemplation and self-examination.  They work very well for that, too.
Qabbahlists find it particularly useful, as they use the cards as bridge
paths between the ten sephira.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

Apparently, my first reply dropped out.  I'll try again:

	The Tarot deck consists of 78 cards, subdivided into two categories,
or "arcana": the "major" and the "minor."  The Major Arcana is composed of
22 cards; the Minor Arcana, 56.  The cards are rather the ancestors of the
modern deck; the differences are that the suits are wands/rods (for clubs),
swords (spades), cups (hearts), and coins/shields/pentacles (diamonds); and
there is a card between the page (jack) and the queen: this card is the
knight: these comprise the minor arcana.  The Major Arcana represent some-
thing on the order of symbols: they start with The Fool (Card 0) and end 
with The World (Card 21).  Cards include The Juggler/Magician, the High
Priestess/Female Pope, the Sun, Death, and the Wheel of Fortune.  Of these,
only The Fool is represented in the modern deck as the Joker.

	The cards are illustrated, often rather prettily, and each scene
has some meaning; the deeper meanings are found in the Major Arcana, however;
and some Tarot readers use only the Major Arcana.

	The great psychoanalyst, Jung, proposed that the Major Arcana were
representations of nearly universal ideas.  The symbolism they represented
could impact the subconscious directly and help break otherwise-present blocks.

	I hope this is sufficient for what was missed.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

 
 I don't know whether there is any basis for this observation but it has 
 been made to me by two different Tarot readers:
 
 Since Tarot cards, especially the Major Arcana  cards  have  "artistic" 
 (and  different)  designs  from  one set to another, it is essential to 
 have a set to which the reader is "sensitive": this may even extend  to 
 the naming of the cards. 
 
 If  this  is true then it seems to me to suggest that the cards in some 
 sense focus the mental activity of the reader. The readings are perhaps 
 no  more  than the type of associative ideas generated by Rorsach (sp?) 
 ink blots, perhaps modified by the sensitivity of  the  reader  to  the 
 subject. 
 
 /. Ian .\
 

I've long been fascinated by the imagery of Tarot cards, though I do
not use them for "real" fortune-telling - when they're wrong, it all seems
pretty useless, and when they're right, it's too scary!

I came across an interesting set of cards a few years ago that have some
elements in common with the Tarot. The set is called "Star+Gate," and is
described explicitly as *not* being for the purpose of fortune-telling or
any psychic activity. Instead, it is supposed to allow the user/reader/player
to enlighten him/herself about some subject or other.

The deck consists of 80-odd cards, each bearing a simple picture on one side
and a symbol on the other. The pictures can be of man-made objects (rope,
a candle, a harp), natural objects (rain, dust, air), people (the jester,
the knight, the child), or completely symbolic images called "stars", as
in "the star of awakening". The deck is shuffled and 10 cards arrayed in
a specific pattern, indicating (sound familiar?) You Now, The Issue, what
came before, what is to come, and the influences for and against.

There's a lot more to it. The symbols on the backs of the cards are classified
into gates, keys, stars, and four other types (sorry, but I'm doing this
off the top of my head; any expert StarGaters out there are welcome to correct
this). These types can modify the meaning of the picture on the front of
the card. Furthermore, each picture has two, often opposite, meanings
ascribed to it.

The point of the exercise is for the user to look at the cards and figure
out for him/herself what they mean. The instructions continually repeat that
this is *not* supposed to be arcane or magical, but is rather to help the
user discover his/her own thoughts on the subject.

I find that the system is an interesting exercise, and sometimes does
urge me to consider a possibility that I've known about, but have been
reluctant to face. Whether it belongs in a discussion of psi phenomena
is problematical, though it would be interesting to see the differences
in results if it is used by non-sensitive people vs. sensitives...
                                                                  
-b

Re .7 (&.6):

That's how I use the Tarot cards, to see what connections I make between
the cards and my life. I do not use the common Celtic cross spread, but one
of the Golden Dawn's, since I use that deck. This method gives a lot more
leaway for various possiblilities, than do some of the very formalized methods.

I also don't read for anyone else. I don't feel I know enough to do so and
don't feel comfortable. I don't use them for foretelling the future, but
for simply helping me to clarify my own thoughts on a subject. I guess I
use them more as a decision making helper, emphasis on HELPER, not as the
decision MAKER.

It is a strange feeling to be puzzling over something and lay out the cards
several times with lots of shuffling in between, and to have very nearly
the same cards turn up. This happens frequently to me.
                                                      
Side note:
Somewhere earlier in this note, something was mentioned about people being
drawn to different decks. I regularly use the Golden Dawn deck. I like the
imagery and the cards background. I am, however, strongly drawn to the Crowley
THOTH deck. When I see them placed out for sale, my hand is drawn to them.
I can feel a tingle in my fingers when I place my hand over the deck, NOT
touching it. I don't particularly care for the images or the reputation of
that particular deck, and really don't think I am strong enough to use it.
I feel if I tried to, I wouldn't be in control of the cards. REALLY WIERD
FEELING.
        
Tamzen

re .8:
With regardfs to patterns:  The Celtic method is okay; I find much better
luck using a variant of the Sephirotic Tree for card positioning.  I suppose
it's what symbolism works for you.

re the Crowley "Thoth" deck.  I would advise _very strongly_ against this
deck.  Crowley liked to pervert things, and the imagry of the deck is re-
pugnant (the idea of the Hanged Man, for example, is totally corrupted from
its traditional symbolism).  Like many potentially evil things, it does have
a fascination/attraction about it.  I did a reading once or twice with that
deck, and while I got results consistent with what I got with other decks,
it was more of an effort to get a "clean" (i.e., clear) reading.  Sorry if
I bother any Thelemites with the above, but that's the way I feel it.

My favorite deck is the Morgan-Greer, but I can use the (stodgy) Rider-Waite
if I have to with as good results.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

 re the Crowley deck
 
 re also my previos reply (3.3):
 
 The  reader  I  described  before  liked the subject to bring their own 
 deck: I suspect that she could learn a lot about the subjects character 
 by what deck appealed to them.
 
 On  one occasion a sitter brought a Crowley deck, and when she saw what 
 they were she broke off the sitting immediately. I have always felt the 
 images  were  powerful, and strangely "attractive" whilst being totally 
 repugnant. 
 
 /. Ian .\

Excuse me but I thought I would inject another note about the THOTH
deck which some people may disagree or agree with. It is not meant
to discredit anyones opinion about it nor is it meant to say that
the deck does not work. On the contrary, it is my perspective that
this deck not only displays "repugnant" or "distorted" symbolism,
but it also displays and contains energies which distinctly relate
to a perfectly human-animal trait, that of self-destruction. Given
this, it is understandable to me why this deck is not only "powerful"
and "strangely attractive" but it is also successful in its purpose
(that of divination). This may also be the reason why the person
who Ian was referring to in the previous response had immediately
broken off a sitting.

Zig

I am very curious about the responses that people have to the Thoth deck.
It is the deck that I regularly use for myself.  I do not find it repulsive
or corrupt.  I find it far richer in symbolic content than any other deck,
and exceptionally beautiful.  I feel that its level of detail allows for
a far broader interpretation than any deck I have used.  I have noticed that
EVERYONE I have shown it to reacts very strongly to it.  They are either 
fascinated or repulsed.  Opinions on why this is so are solicited.

Because of the mixed reaction to this deck, I carry two decks when I give
readings for others.  The other deck I tend to use is the Morgan-Greer
deck.  It is an excellent deck for general use.  I don't like Rider-Waite
much at all; it seems dry to me.

A note on the Thoth deck:  it is not precisely Crowley's deck.  It was
drawn (under his supervision) by Lady Frieda Harris, a student of his.
She was granted the status of adept by Crowley for her execution of the
deck, and explicitly for her Queen of Disks, which Crowley had no input
for.  Overall, I suspect he had much less influence on the deck than he
would have liked, and found Lady Harris to be one tough cookie.  Her 
interpretation of his notes on tarot was intense enough that even Al
couldn't argue with it!

re:.12

Correct me if I am wrong, but another interesting note about the Thoth
deck is that it seems to be influenced by the Egyptian mythology more
than any other. In a way, beauty always IS in the eye of the beholder
and in this case, it could mean Horus! An interesting deck indeed . . .

Re:.0

To Steve Kallis jr.

Maybe an idea to help find out which of your three probable mechanisms
is functioning (or maybe another which wasn't mentioned) when given
Tarot readings, would be to try a 'blind' reading for someone in this
discussion, publish the reading, and let the subject (or subjects)
describe how accurate it is. This may help to define its properties
or at least it will help us determine how important it is for the
reader to actually meet the subject.

Zig

Re .12:

Understanding that Crowley didn't have "full control" of the execution of the 
artwork, his hand is still much in evidence.  If you have no trouble with the
deck, sobeit: as I said, I've used it and have been able to get good readings
from it, yet I do not like the imagry, and it's more of a strain to pull things
out of it than with other decks.

Then, I also use Tarot cards as contemplatory devices.

Re .13:  

I believe the Epicgos deck is more "Egyptian" than the Crowley deck, though
the Crowley deck is more "mythological."  The "eye of the beholder" may be
that of Heru, but it could be of Re; then, we must ask ourselves whether
it's the right eye or the left.  Makes a world of difference.

Re .14:

Readings I do require the subject to manipulate the cards.  How does one
do _that_ over the net? :-)

Steve Kallis, Jr.

i might be putting my self out on a limb here... but here goes...
i am not sure if i am interested in tarot cards or not.  i know NOTHING
about them... except that they "can tell the future"????  this is in reply
to .14....
would someone do a blind reading on me??? i want to know more about this
"hobby".  i would be very interested in what someone could tell me about
myself... please reply to those interested in my offer.
toni

re .16:

If the Tarot is to be used for legitimate analysis, it's (ir it _should_ be
that) required for the subject to manipulate (i.e., choose) the cards.  You
can't do a "blind" reading with any chance of accuracy.  The closest you could
get to that is if someone mailed you a Tarot deck and you sent back the "chosden"

cards from the rest of the deck.

Tarot doesn't exactly "foretell the future," but in the right hands, it can
aopparently spot trends and describe hidden aspects of current conditions.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

to steve....
do you do readings??? if not... who does...  would i just shut my eyes and
pick a name out of the phone book???

	Your best bet for a card reading is to go to a professional card reader.
Look in the yellow pages for a psychic or astrology house.  Call them and be
sure they do card readings and get an appointment.  You get what you pay for.

							Good Luck
							  Jorge'

Re .18:, .19:

	I don't read professionally, but will, if circumstances permit, do
readings for associates.

	A very good reader whom I can reccommend is Sandra Levine ("Sandy")
at the House of Zodiac.  A very perceptive reader.  The House of Zodiac is in
Shopper's World, Framingham, on the lower level.  The number is (617) 872-7321
-- they will schedule appointments.  Some of their other readers are good, but 
she is the best there.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

P.S.:  Tell her I sent you.

yet another question:

I looked thru a deck of Tarot cards once at a friend's house.  I don't remember
what the deck was called.  I do remember the picture of the inverted
crucifix, which, for lack of a better word, frightened me.  From this 
'vast' quantity of information can anyone identify which deck it was?

Alison

RE .-1

Sounds like it could be the Crowlean Thoth deck.  I can't really tell for
sure from this information though.

/Kathleen

    	When this topic was first opened I had no expeirience with Tarot
    cards but since then I have done some investigating.  I am now doing
    some readings and checking acuracy.  
    
    	I agree with Steve in that the interpertations are hazy and
    none specific but I feel when reading in connection with a detailed
    question you can gain some weighty insights.  I find that what I
    read from a layout will color my general feelings about the questions
    asked but it will not consume me.  
    
    	Tamzen commented that it is sort of eerie the way the deck repeats
    itself for the same question asked.  I have found the same.
    
    	I also feel it is very important for the seeker to handle the
    deck if you want any kind of accuracy.  The idea of a blind reading
    over the net would really be stretching it.
    
    							Jorge'

    re .23
    
    You said your readings were hazy.  For my own information, which
    deck and which spread were you using? Additionally, what type of
    info were you trying to obtain and what type of action did you take
    before doing the reading?
    
    Perhaps with this info I can make a suggestion based on my experiences
    that will "zero in the reading more".
    
    

    	I'm using a rider deck and the Keltic method.  questions have
    been "what is my financial future? and what is my remortgage going
    to go like?".  My wife asked, "Am I going to lose weight after I
    have the baby (6mths prego)?".  My mother-in-law asked, "Will I
    make my trip to Cornwall?"  The method I used was to have the seeker
    shuffle the cards while thinking about the question.  when they
    felt it was right they would cut them into three stacks with thier
    left hand and then I would pile them back 1,2,3.  I would tghen
    pick the tenth car5d from the top as their significator.  We would
    then go thru the first part again.  I would layout the cards, Keltic
    style, and interpert each card individually then collectively. 
    I do all this with book in hand because I so new to it.
    	
    	Some questions I have about it are; Can you do your own questions
    like anyone else or should you approach it differently?  What are
    some other methods and decks?  and What are the most accurate decks
    and methods around?  Thanks in advance for your insights!!
    
    							Jorge'

There are many decks and many many spreads.  Use the one which gives
the best "feeling", i.e. go someplace where they have several decks on 
display and place your hand on each.  Take the ones that seem to have 
attraction.  Look through the decks at the symbolism.  Ask yourself 
if you could compose a story by looking at the card.

If you're used to the Rider deck, try the Morgan-Greer, which is
basically an updated Rider-Waite deck.  Others (off the top of my head)
include Golden Dawn (the same organization which is responsible for many
"modern" decks, Thoth (Crowley's deck), Bernaud, Simplied, New, BOTA, 
and at least a dzen more.  More info when I can get to my references.

Spreads are like cards; use the ones which have meaning to you.  I did
not learn using the Celtic Cross, and have only started using it since 
beginning to teach Tarot classes.  I use several decks, as circumstances
dictate. 
The  spreads I use most, with brief descriptions of meanings, follow.
I will continue this in another reply, as time permits.

Simple answering (YES/NO) spread.

	card 5					card 9
		card 4			card 8
			significator
			   card 1
		card 7			card 3
	card 6					card 2

This spread is designed to give a definite answer to a definite question,
so the question must be phrased in YES/NO terms.

Card 1 : pivot card   dignified - yes,  ill-dignified - no
cards 2 & 3  helpful influences, not helpful to the querent,
	     but to the answer received (i.e.  why a 'no' answer
	     not what will change said answer)
cards 6 & 7  Adverse influences, to the answer
cards 4 & 5  what the querent thought about the circumstances
cards 8 & 9  what the querent thought about the circumstances

The last two sets are often at odds with each other, but that is not
unusual.  One can not get a pay raise  but still like the job, for 
instance.

read the cards through once in this order, then return to card one
and read it again, on it's own merit.  (this is the outcome card
for the entire reading).

Planetary Deal Answering Spread

				card 4
			card 3		card 5
		card 2		signif		card 6
			card 1		card 7

card 1. Place of tthe moon - Matters of home.
card 2. Place of Mercury - matters of business, skill, or deceit.
card 3. Place of Venus - love life.
card 4. Place of the sun - Matters of fame and achievement.
card 5. Place of Mars - Matters of emnity or adversity.
card 6. Place of Jupiter - Matters of expansion, gain, and acquisition.
card 7. Place of Saturn - Matters of general restriction and intellectual
			  deliberation.

the answer provided is that indicated by majority of the cards (wands..)
and each card should be read on it's on merits due to position in the spread
as well as in light of the majority.  Always read from the majority 
view first.  The solution, or answer can be found in Mercury, the reconciler.

More to follow.... got work to get done.

Dave

Re: 3.25

I suspect the problem is one of using a good tool for the wrong job.  There
are many variants, so I can't be sure which one you have learned, but the
Keltic Cross isn't usually used for "answering questions"  I have used it
for years with great success but only for "problem" readings.

Instead of thinking of a question, the queriant (sp?) should think over a
problem that they have been having.  A properly done reading will then discuss
the "forces" at work, and how they have developed/will develop.  My success
rate is roughly 1/3rd duds, 1/3rd pretty good, and 1/3rd amazingly good.

The Rider deck is, in my opinion, badly underrated.  The art work is less
flashy than some of the more recent decks but the symbolism is philosophically
one of the cleanest around.  A.E. Waite, who supervised the artist (Pamela
Smith I believe) is unquestionably one of the best mystic scholars in English
of the past 100 years.  This is judging him on the basis of his scholarship
rather than a subjective judgment of his mystic/occult philosophy.

I personally recommend, by the way, the somewhat harder to get University
Press printing of the Rider pack, rather than the more common one (I can't
think of the publisher at the moment).  The colors seem to be closer to the
ones which Waite describes in the _Pictorial Key to the Tarot_.

My personal recommendation to anyone wishing to learn to read the Tarot, is
to start with Waite's classic style, either as described in the above-mentioned
book or in any of Eden Gray's books.  Then start exploring personal variations:
either your own modifications to the interpretation, other layouts or other,
less philosophically neutral, decks.

For those more interested in getting deeper into the meanings of the Tarot,
I heartily recommend Paul Foster Case's book (called something clever like
"The Tarot").  He makes an excellent case for Waite having deliberately
introduced errors into his deck.  Unfortunately, I have not seen a color
edition of Case's corrected deck, and, at least for me, the color is important.

			Topher

Questions of 3.25:

"Can you do your own questions like anyone else or should you approach it
differently?"  Many authors recommend that you *don't* do readings for
yourself.  I know many readers that can, but I have never been able to.
What I *want* to be true gets too mixed in.  I would stay away from it,
except as a pure "exercise" until you've polished your personal style at
the least.  If it works for you, I would use the I Ching -- it is set up
to answer questions and it is meant to be used on oneself.

"What are some other methods and decks?"  As many as grains of sand on the
beach.  There is even a "SF Artists deck" (limited edition) where each card
is done by a different science fiction artist (professional or well known
amateur).  Unless you continue to have problems with it, I would, as I
recommended in my previous note, stick with the Keltic Cross and the Rider
Deck until you've learned the rudiments.  In my experience its the best
starting place, and some (like myself) continue to use it.

"What are the most accurate decks and methods around?"  Accuracy is in the
reader not in the deck or the method.  The only problem is that the wrong
deck or method (for a particular reader) can limit the reader.  This is
why I recommend sticking to the Rider deck and the Keltic Cross, they are
the most "neutral", flexible options I know of.  Other methods, and (much
more so) decks tend to limit the philosophical options available to the
reader.  This is fine after you have developed your own style, but premature
it can lead to limitations on discovery.  (All this is my opinion only, of
course.)

	    Topher

    RE:27 I am now using a book by Eden Gray called "Mastering the Tarot.
    I like it.  I feel the interpertations of each card don't give me
    a real good feel for each cards place in each reading.  But I do
    feel more  comfortable the more readings I do.  When I do read my
    own questions I can see the effects of my own expectations on the
    final outcome.  I'll have to team up with my wife and get her to
    do my questions for me.  Thanks for all the great feedback on my
    query.
    
    							Jorge'

    {whew!}  Thanks to Bill Keefe, I'm now back in the notefile.
    
    With regards to decks, etc., I strongly suggest that if you have
    any talent in this area, you styay away from readings for yourself;
    Topher's right: it's too easy to get your own wishes mixed in and
    skew the reading.  Also, I've discovered for the very best results,
    when reading on a specific subject, let at least 1/4 lunation take
    place between readings (i.e., wait a week) for things to settle
    down.
    
    "Spreads" depend on the reader.  There is no one "perfect" spread.
    I get my best results with the Morgan-Greer, though I can use any
    deck if I _have_ to, though I definitely don't like the Crowley
    deck.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    	Welcome back Steve.  I have missed your fact-filled replies.

    Just a brief list of some of the "recognised" decks
    
    Gringonneur, Bembo, Swiss, Insight, Marseille, Italian, Wirth, Waite,
    B.O.T.A., Aquarian, Crowley Thoth, New, Golden Dawn, Morgan Greer.
    
    Interpretations have been published by several sources
    Case, Christrian, Crowley, Douglas, Gray, Golden Dawn, Grimaud,
    Huson, Kahn, Kaplan, Knigh, Lind, Mathes, Mayananda, Papus, Sadhu,
    Thierens, Ussher, Waite, Suggested.
    
    This list is by no means complete or suggested to be definitive      
    It is the list from which I wrote my paper on symbology. If anyone
    is interested, I will give the full bibliography set.
    
    And, for pure fun,  consider the following unique decks.
    
    Morgan Tarot : humorous - unusual in Tarot decks.
    Grand Etteilla
    Astrological Tarot : 48 cards based on the zodiac and planets
    Galgal, The Master Game
    The Jesus Deck, suits are each named after an apostle
    I Ching Cards , interesting and ingenious mix of I Ching and Tarot 
    John Upton deck,  Quite beautiful
    Bill Griffiths deck,  very personal statement.
    
    And a closing quote:
    "The mystery lies not in the cards but in the heads of the people
    who use them.  Anything that helps to lighten the mystery and make
    it understood will be useful.  There's too much mystery.  Too many
    experts.  Too many books on the tarot."  Bill Butler in
    					     Dictionary of the Tarot       
    
    
    

    Oh, Yeah...
    
    I forgot to agree that normally a person does not read for themselves,
    other than practice spreads.  Too easy too interpret what you want
    than what you receive.
    
    Dave

    re .32:
    
    Among the "unique decks" I've heard of, one of the strangest was
    one using Disney characters.  Either the Mickey Mouse deck or the
    Walt Disney deck; I forget which.  Major arcana only.
    
    I think readings with this deck would tend to be frivolous.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    
    .re 25 et al
    
    Background: I use the Golden Dawn Deck and for supplemental info..
                Robert Wang's: Introduction to Golden Dawn Tarot
    
    Sucess rate: Subjectively other's have placed my accuracy in excess
                 of 90% in answering their questions. I hit my own readings
                 EVERY time.
    
    and now for a word from our sponsors......
    
    
    (my opinions)
    
    I do all of my own readings for myself. I do readings for others
    as well (with and without them handling the cards).  I do not have
    to wait between readings because I am closer to being in touch with
    the source  that makes the cards work. (Please interpret the previous
    statement as fact not ego.)

    
    Accuracy of the kind I describe is only possible for someone who
    is approaching the total freedom from ego and who has experience in
    connecting into "the web that binds us all together".  The cards are
    designed at the base level as tools for SELF-inspection and reflection.
    
    So, the answers to simple questions like "Will my wife lose weight after
    the baby is born?"  may be very complex.  The answer can strike
    at the very heart of a matter.  For example, the cards may reveal
    something like "after the birth your wife will be overly concerned
    about material things". This does not seem to answer the question
    at first. However, aperson of considerable sensitivity may be able
    to make the connection:  WIFE IS CONCERNED ABOUT MATERIAL
    THINGS --> WIFE IS VERY NERVOUS --> WIFE EATS WHEN NERVOUS --> WIFE
    WILL GET FAT.  
    
    The point I am making is that the answer to the question as posed
    in the example is NO (wife will not lose weight).  However the cards
    also reveal the true unnatural process that the wife might be
    undergoing which causes the problem.
    
    
    One final analogy about the use of cards.  A young boy who has found
    a hammer may be able to effectively drive nails into planks; but
    the carpenter uses the hammer to build a house. Perhaps instead
    of learning to use the hammer, you should study carpentery.
    

    re .35:
    
    There are many roads to the Gem of Knowledge, which has many facets.
    Some self-readings _could_ become self-fulfilling prophecies; others
    may be alterable.  The example you gave of determining (hypothetically)
    whether a wife will lose weight implies in its analysis that if
    you understand _why_ the wift "won't" lose weight you can make
    adjustments that will enable her to do so.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    
    re .35:
    
    may your karma always guide you so well.  I agree that the cards
    matter less than the information received.  I still feel that one
    chooses the best deck for one's self; the one that "speaks" clearly.
    Be it the Rider deck, the Thoth deck or any of myriad others, matters
    little.  Simply choose the best tool for your purpose, and practice.
    Even a carpenter does not build houses, as a little boy.
    
    Dave 
    
    "First things first.. but not necessarily in that order"   The Doctor
    

  RE .36
  
  True prophecies never come true.

    	I feel that I have opened up discussions as to my real motives
    and maturity with these questions about the tarot.  If I know nothing
    about something and want to learn I am not afraid of displaying
    my ignorance in order to learn but please don't take my inqueries
    as if I am proclaiming to be a blind egotist wanting to start at
    the top.  I just want to know.  Maybe I'll be a carpenter some day.
    
    	All my experiments are bringing me closer to the truth.  Ofcourse
    their are risks whenever you tread onto unknown area but if you
    never take the risk you never gain.
    
    	Back to the tarot.  I find the more I do it the more comfortable
    I get about it.  I find the interpertations are not clear and very
    revealing as to the root of many problems not just the quest in
    question.  
    
    							Jorge'

    Jorge'
    
    Sorry if I have, in any way, questioned your motives or maturity.
    I mean to do neither.  I recognise a 'seeker for the truth', and
    tend to present more than one side or view to any question. Having
    read the cards for several years, and for psychic fairs, with a
    good 'hit' rate  (quite hard to assign hits when reading for people
    you may never see again), I find that the secret is within you,
    and, as you noted, practice (easier the more I do it). I routinely
    use different spreads, different decks, as the question, querent,
    and spirit move me.  I tend to use the Morgan Greer deck for two
    reason: I like it, and it isn't as 'cluttered' as the Waite deck.
                                                                       
    I also use a set of interpretations based on the pure symbology.
    I feel this is easier than memorizing 156 different meanings.  Takes
    a bit longer to make the reading flow but gives room for tying in
    other disciplines; astrology, numeralogy, etc.
    
    Listen to what is available, but my advise is to find your own path
    in the cards.  Pick an expert and learn from them if you wish. 
    Find a group that allows you to practice reading on each other (we
    have several such down herre, but's a bit far to commute).
    
    As for being a carpenter, I think I just got to the point where
    I can drive nails in straight. Just don't ask me to saw any boards.
    
    May your path be bathed in light.
    
    Dave       
    
    "Always do things in chronilogical order, it's less confusing that
       way"   The Doctor
    

    Well, I went to the Shambhala Book Store and saw a bunch of
tarot cards on display.  As suggested, I put my hands over each
of them, but nothing seemed to assert itself.
    The Crowley deck looks like it was designed by a power freak
(like Nazi propaganda posters or a _Heavy_Metal_ cartoonist).  I
thought it was pretty stupid.  My favorite was the I Ching deck,
though I suppose it's not a kosher deck for tarot, is it?
		<_Jym_>

    
    
    
    I just got a couple of new decks.  The first came out last fall.
    It is called the Scapini tarot.  The artist is Luigi Scapini.  He
    based his deck on some medieval oils of some of the trump, and finished
    the deck in a similar style.  They are very beautiful, with gold
    backs and lovely medieval styling (I am giving them as gifts to
    several friends who are involved in Society For Creative Anachronism).
    I have had several good readings with them.  They are quite usable,
    which is something I have not been able to say about all decks that
    I have.  They are a good buy at about $15, well worth checking out.
    
    The second deck I got is for serious collectors only:  The Dali
    Universal Tarot.  It is a limited edition (10,000, I think) and
    will not be produced after April '86.  This was a condition of 
    Salvador Dali's estate; the plates used to produce them will be
    destroyed.  It set me back $80 to get a deck (Ok, I confess! I bought
    two sets! Groan, my wallet hurts, but it was worth it!)  I saw them
    well over a year and a half ago, and finally broke down and got
    some!  They are exquisite!  I have not used them for readings, and
    don't really intend to - they are part of a collection.  I might
    be amenable to showing them to anyone who is interested in seeing
    the entire set before plunking down what seems to be alot of money
    for a deck of cards.  Be warned!  Friends who had no thought at
    all of buying this deck saw them and immediately went off to get
    their own!
    
    re: doing your own readings:
    
    There appears to be mixed opinions on this.  Some folks say you
    should never do your own readings.  I did my own readings (and still
    do) for a LONG time before I would do anyone else's, and I recommend
    this to anyone who asks me how to get started.  
    
    
    /rita
    
    

    Good morning,
    
    The Dali deck is quite beautiful, and only $60 down here.  I admit
    I bought a set, but I doubt I'd use it for readings (quite nice
    for meditation though).  If you don't want to by the deck, there
    is a book, The Salvador Dali Tarot (I think), for around $12-$15
    that has the entire deck portrayed.
    
    Re: reading for self.  I did when I started, and stopped when I
    began reading for others.  I use the cards for meditation; to discover
    new links and symbols.  I truly feel that a person should use the
    cards however they feel is right; just watch out for the subjective
    interpretations when it relates directly to the reader.
    
    Just in passing, I am currently creating (?) my own deck based on
    Cherokee symbology.  Has anyone else ever created their own personal
    deck?  What was it's basis?  How did it turn out?
    
    BCNU,
    Dave
    

    re .43:
    
    Yes, I've worked on a deck, which I'm currently trying to peddle.
     It's based on a three-level symbolism (macrocosmos, cosmos,
    microcosm/mind), and is better for contemplation/potentials than
    used as a standard Tarot.  
    
    The problem with a new deck is that most publishers are hesitant
    to touch one, since the conventional Tarot decks already have lots
    of literature on how to use 'em, and one based on a different symbology
    requires ancillary work (such as instructions) to have to be published.
    The economies are against it.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    Steve,
    
    Would it be possible for you to describe one of the cards, preferrably
    a major arcana.  I'm a bit too far away to try and drop by to look
    at it.
    
    Dave

    
    Dave,
    
    I have a copy of a deck a friend of mine designed.  She did a feminist
    tarot.  The court cards are all women: Mother, Daughter, Sister,
    and Child.  She sells them at the feminist craft conventions she
    attends, and apparently has sold quite a few.  The are printed in
    black and white and are very modernist in appearance.  I believe
    her original designs were done in woodcuts.  The deck is called
    Thea's Tarot. 
    
    The Magickal Childe (an occult mail-order shop out of New York City)
    just sent their spring brochure.  They have about half a dozen pages
    of tarot decks listed.  I believe one of them claimed to have a
    "Native American" focus; I don't remember details, though.  I will
    try to find the brochure and send more information later.
    
    
    /Rita
    
                                                                   

    Thanks, Rita,
    
    The NATIVE INDIAN deck to which you refer is quite nice; I have
    it; but it mixes the symbology of the various Indian cultures in
    conflicting ways.  What I am attempting to do is draw out the symbols
    of the various Cherokee myths and legends and attune them to the
    cards.  Not trying to be commercial, just for my own enlightenment.
    I am using the Cherokee because of some small Cherokee background
    and that they suffered the forced miagration and thusly have a wealth
    of old and new symbols.
    
    Your friends deck sounds quite nice, the feminine deck I am familiar
    with is the MOTHER PEACE deck, very nice, but I wouldn't try to
    read it (or even want to try and shuffle it (it's round)) :-)    
    
    Dave

    Dave,
    
    Now I'm curious about the Mother Peace deck; does it come with any
    documentation?  If it is round, does that mean that there is no
    difference in interpretation for reversed cards?  Or are there separate
    interpretations for cards that are straight up, reversed, on their
    left sides, on there right sides?  Or maybe zodiac influences based
    on which way the card is pointing?  Did the creator of the deck
    intend for it to be used?  How intriguing!
    
    Your Cherokee deck sounds nifty - be sure and keep us informed on
    your progress!
    
    Rita
    
    

    Rita,
    
    The Mother Peace deck comes with the standard "small pamphlet" info.
    There is, however, a large softback book "THE MOTHER PEACE TAROT"
    which goes into more depth on the interpretations.  If memory serves
    me correctly (seldom <sigh>)  there is no orientation differences,
    rather it is expresed on the interaction of the cards around.  Don't
    quote me on this, I haven't the 'femaleness' necessary to work with
    the cards, as was obvious when I tried a quick spread.  My intution
    may be good enough for the job, but I found the total absence of
    'maleness' to be off-balancing in the cards.  I am still considering
    acquiring a deck for collection purposes, and I will buy the book
    next time I see it (and actually have cash type money).  Will let
    you (and the net) know.
    
    Dave
    "Diplomacy is the weapon of the civilized man"   Attila the Hun
    

I don't know if this is appropraite or not, but I have heard of a new
person (not a DECie) who is doing readings in Marlboro. The place is:

Nina's Astrology Room
200 Maple St.
Marlboro.

She does Tarot and Palm Readings and is available for "Group meetings
and house parties"!

Disclaimer: I haven't gotten a reading so I can't say how good she is.
		Nor is this supposed to be an ad for her. I am merely
		pointing out where she is. If I find out anything more
		(or get a reading from her), I will inform the net...

DDA

    This has been a fascinating note.  I do not read Tarot currently,
    although a friend does, and we exchange readings from our two
    disciplines (mine is astrology, hers is Tarot).  She had a Thoth
    deck.  She also makes a practice, mentioned here, of letting a
    querent choose the deck they wish.  I kept choosing her Crowley
    deck and she finally gave it to me, because it gave her the willies.
    I find it quite powerful, and very rich in its symbolism, as has
    been noted by another in this note.  I became curious, however,
    on hearing the extreme reactions to the deck, and, after a bit of
    personal research into mine and my friend's horoscope, I'd like
    to ask the people who have an aversion to the deck if they know
    their sun sign, ascendent, moon sign, whatever, from their charts
    (If you don't have your chart, I can cast it from the birth data).
    
    Reason being:  I am theorizing that the person's character can
    have an influence on how much power (as represented by the cards)
    that they can handle.  After all, you can't pour molton steel
    through a silk stocking.  As an illustration, my friend's chart
    is heavily influenced by the Moon, Neptune and Venus.  All very
    receptive, sensitive planets; she really has trouble "detaching"
    from the vibes in the environment around her.  My chart, on the
    other hand, is most heavily influenced by Saturn, Pluto and the
    Sun.  Lotta brute force there--or the capability to be the
    crucible for molton steel.
    
    If I'm on the right track, there are indeed people who aren't
    strong enough, psychically, to work with certain decks.  This
    doesn't mean that the deck necessarily need be evil--just that
    more gentle souls will get bruised if they use it as the vehicle
    for their knowledge.  It may be, also, that the more psychically
    sensitive a person is, the more sensitive they can be to influences
    that others of us can shrug off.  I must admit that I don't use
    the deck for other than self-analysis.  My own depths I don't
    mind, but after reading all the reactions to the Thoth deck, I
    will not use that deck if I ever read for other people.  I wouldn't
    want them to handle something that was too much for them.
    
    Marcia
    

    re .53:
    
    I don't believe the problem necessarily is how much psychic energy
    or what have you people can handle.  I have no trouble with the
    Crowley deck in that sense; rather, I find the symbolism in the
    deck offensive.  Example:  The Hanged Man in the Crowley deck isn't
    "hanged" in the sense of most decks; i.e., suspended: he's
    reverse-crucified (per St. Peter, one assumes), thus taking and
    perverting the original symbolism to something else.
    
    The Rider-Waite deck is too prissy for my tastes; I rather like
    the Morgan-Greer.  But when asked, I've used the Crowley deck
    successfully (oddly, once I was visiting a so-called Psychic Fair
    as a customer and a professional palm reader asked me to give _her_
    a reading with a deck someone had given her as a gift; it was the
    Crowley deck, and I gave her a fairly comprehensive one).  It's
    just that I rather consider its symbolism sufficiently skewed that
    I'd rather use other decks.  Sacred Rose isn't a bad deck, either.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    Personally, I find the idea very interesting.  I have run in to
    more and more people who have heard of the thoth deck and it has
    become a more requested deck at the psychic fairs I read at lately.
    I think that this is a valid crossing of the two fields, from a
    viewpoint of information.  Who knows, there could be something to
    it.  As soon as I can locate all the information as requested, I'll
    send it on.  (It's at home somewhere).
    
    Dave
    

    re: .51
    
    Marcia,
    
    Ok, I'll go for it.  Since I use the Thoth deck as my first choice,
    here is my astrological data for you to use in checking your theory.
    Born May 18, 1959, 8:43 AM.  I'll be interested in hearing more
    of what you make of this.
    
    Rita
                                                                      
    

    I've had two responses from people who use and like the Thoth deck.
    Both the natal charts of the people have the following features:
    
     o strong Plutonian energy (and I feel the Thoth deck is rather
       Plutonian--not for the faint of heart)
     o strong Saturn and/or Jupiter energy (Saturn provides strength
       and grounding, Jupiter a necessary vision and detachment)
    
    The significance of Pluto is that Pluto is, in part, about the
    greatest depths of our psyches, where the greatest riches and the
    ugliest secrets dwell.  Elsewhere in this note the Thoth deck has
    been called both fascinating and repugnant.  People often feel the
    same way about the facets of themselves they keep under wraps.
    Those of us who feel a certain affinity for the Thoth deck (and
    I am one of these) have natal charts showing greater CONSCIOUS access
    to the power of Pluto within ourselves.  (I feel conscious access
    is important, since it gives us the choice in how to use that power.)
    Perhaps, if we feel more comfortable, or drawn to its symbology,
    it is because we are more aware of the beautiful and the terrible
    within ourselves and have made some peace with it.
    
    Since Pluto is heavy stuff, however, there has to be a way to channel
    the power called up by that energy.  Saturn energy seems great for
    grounding and gives one the capability to consciously construct
    reality.  This could be very important when being a channel for
    whatever divinatory powers one might use the cards for.  Saturn's
    reputation for the Zodiac's disciplinarian is of good use here.
    
    Jupiter is emerging as a factor I'd not considered.  But it makes
    sense.  Among other things, the Greater Benefic gives one a certain
    braodminded detachment, an ability to look at the whole picture
    presented without getting sucked into emotionally entangling details.
    This could be vital to people doing readings since it could enable
    them to detach sufficiently to avoid feeling poisoned afterward,
    and also add to one's drive to "do the right thing".  Jupiter is
    concerned with rightness and justice.
    
    These energies I've described are present in unique ways in each
    person's chart.  The person may have planets in the appropriate
    signs and houses, or may have his/her personal planets aspected
    by Pluto, Saturn or Jupiter.  Sometimes, it's a mix of both.
    
    Interesting note:  Aleister Crowley had a Mercury-Jupiter con-
    junction in Scorpio (Pluto's sign).
    
    I realise this is hardly a statistically significant sample, so
    feel free to keep those cards and letters coming.
    
    Marcia

    For those of you who do Tarot for yourself, I found a nifty "workbook"
    in Paperback Booksmith, of all places.  It is called:
    
    	_Tarot For Yourself, A Workbook for Personal Transformation_
    		by:  Mary K. Greer
    
    	       pub:  Newcastle Publishing Co. Inc.
    		     Van Nuys, CA
    
    It contains interesting info on rituals, reading methods you can
    try, "Tarot journal-keeping", active imagination exercises, numero-
    logical, astrological and psychological facets of intuitive 
    interpretation, *plus* illustrations of many current decks.  If
    you're looking for Tarot deck and don't know which one appeals,
    studying the illustrations in this book can help you land on the
    one that feels right to you.  Illustrated decks include:
    
    	Rider-Waite
    	Morgan-Greer
    	Crowley-Harris
    	Motherpeace
    	Aquarian
    	Native American
    	Amazon
    	Tarot de Marseilles
    	and a couple more, the rest of which I can't bring to mind.
    
    I am enjoying it immensely.
    
    Marcia

    The Cambridge Center for Adult Education offers an excellent course
    in Tarot card reading.  The instructor is Will Raiman, who lives
    in West Newton and does readings for people, in addition to teaching
    this course.  The course is 10 weeks in length, with each class
    lasting two hours.
    
    I took the course, not only to give myself some "groundwork" from
    which my intuition could then take off, but because this reader
    specializes in teaching the Thoth deck.  For those of you who may
    have considered yourselves tampering with evil forces or brain damaged
    because that deck was your deck of choice, this course is _excellent_
    in orienting you to the healing potential of the imagery.  Will
    makes no bones that he thinks Crowley was a grand-scale twit, and
    does not endorse his shadier philosophies or practices.  But Will
    believes the Tarot tool he created is a good one, if its use is 
    approached with the proper intent.  He was very emphatic about ritual
    grounding and blessing of the cards prior to any reading.
    
    Since the course I have used the Tarot in conjunction with my
    astrological work with very good results.  To those of you who already
    use that deck, the course is very interesting from the standpoint
    of learning what all the little symbols in the cards mean.
    
    Marcia

    I just finished reading this notes file and would like to offer
    a slightly different perspective.  I have been taught to appraoch
    the TAROT from a triangulated point of view.  The teachings suggested
    a relationship between the TAROT, Qaballah, and MAGICK.  The qaballah
    being the theory, the TAROT a teaching device and MAGICK the practice.
    
    From this perspective it is unimportant what the books on TAROT
    suggest is their meaning.  To determine what the card(s) are
    representing you simply ask the card.  Hold the card to the side,
    get it into peripheral vision, pull the image internal and then
    "step into the scene".  Pay particular attention to the internal
    state shifts.  Handling the cards activate energies.  Knowing how
    a particular card changes your energy field will help you develop
    "remote readings".  In fact, the cards will no longer be necessary
    to give readings.
    
    
    Richard Greene, (603-880-6694), in Nashua, NH does readings and
    is quite good.  He will also give astrological readings, psychic
    readings as well as TAROT readings.
    
    woody
    

    I gave a Tarot deck as a gift to a friend.  She later shared her
    experience on opening the deck. She could feel no difference between
    the cards and her hand(body), and said that traditionally the deck
    one reads with is one received as a gift.  It turns out she could
    read with or without the deck.  Usually people felt more comfortable
    if she used the deck.
    
    --Tim

    When using the cards to do a reading for myself, I like the Grand
    Eteilla deck, and yet I find it next to useless to do a reading
    for anybody else.
    
    The deck was given to me by a former girlfriend, and is one of two
    decks I have that I was given (the other is a much used Thoth deck
    that I am thinking of "retiring").
    
    Any thoughts gentle readers?
    
    /. Ian .\

    
    
    A couple of weeks ago I shared in an interesting exercise. One evening
    several  of us were spending the evening together and the Tarot came
    up in conversation.   It turned out that 4 out of the 6 work with
    tarot.  One person had two decks with her and another had 3 different
    ones in the house.  We decided it would be fun to lay them all out
    pick one card from each deck, place them infront of
    ourselves in a random spread and we each read our own and each others
    in turn.  As always, it was fun, informative and often right on.
     
    It was of particular interest because more often than not several
    of the folks (some of whom didn't know each other at all) joined with
    others and did a joint reading for one individual.    I recommend
    trying this if the oppty arises , if for no other reason than it's
    a fun parlor game.
    
                                       
    Cheers 
    
    Lora

    
    
    Recently I received a book on a New Age approach to the Toth deck.
    It is a much more positive than the one written by Crowley.  In
    fact after reading the one by Crowley, I was very turned off of
    the deck.   However, after scanning thru the new one (written by
    James Wanless co-creator of the Voyager deck), I purchased the Toth.
    I have yet to work with it as I am seasoning (no MSG please) it first.
    I'll add another note when I have had a chance to work with it.
    
    By the way, the Voyager deck is one of the most powerful decks
    I've come in contact with.  When I was seasoning it (sleeping with
    it) I could barely sleep there was so much energy.  I kept having
    lights (such as refractions from crystals) dancing around in my
    head.  I still have trouble doing a concentrated reading for someone
    else but find it the best to meditate with.    

    It's been awhile since anyone has added to this file so I
    thought I would.  I had been learning to read and was using
    the Rider cards.  I found them to busy and being color blind
    (certain colors only) I didn't like the bothersome busy intrusive
    colors in the cards.  So I went to a shop, and handled and
    sensed all the decks that they had on display.  One deck in 
    particular kept pulling me back, with the most wonderful tingleing
    in my hand.  I carried it around for awhile and felt really 
    pleased for some reason.  Well, then I checked to see which
    deck it was and found myself happily drawn to the Thoth deck.
    After having read all the comments in this file, I talked to 
    the proprieter of the store about what had been said what I
    felt from the cards and what to do, what to do......
    I bought the deck.  I like them, I find that because of the 
    gentle colors and vivid pictures, (you have to be colorblind
    to understand what I mean) I no longer am being blocked.
    I haven't done any readings yet, still doing the seasoning,
    but the emenations have been the most peaceful, strong and
    stimulating.  Any comments?

    vivian
    

    re .64:
    
    Well, whatever deck works ...
    
    There's also the Aquarian deck, which (my copy of, at least) is
    monochrome.
    
    Stevwe Kallis, Jr.
    

    I've finally read through all the replies to this note.  I was
    surprised that no one has mentioned the Hanson-Roberts deck.  Is
    anyone else familiar with it?  I find the images and colors very
    appealing and have given some very good readings with it.  When
    I was sleeping with the deck under my pillow, I had some incredibly
    detailed and clear dreams of the middle ages!
    
    Anyone else have any feelings about this deck?
    
    Carole
    

    Re: Thoth deck
    
    Me too.  I also received a course in Tarot instruction that used
    the Thoth deck pretty exclusively, and my feeling is this.  based
    on what our instructor told us, blessing and protecting yourself
    and your cards is vital, no matter which specific deck you use.
    He also said that to him, the cards gave him a piercing insight
    into a situation that no other deck did.  I have found this to be
    true also.  There is something in my subconscious that is triggered
    with great results by the pictures in this deck.
    
    This is why I feel that part of what people react to in feeling
    a particular deck is good or bad is reacting to what has been brought
    up inside themselves by the images.  What is inside them may have
    many sources, but there are always parts of the self that we don't
    particularly care for, or which outright frighten or revolt us.
    Having intimations of these qualities invoked by a divinatory tool
    does seem to make that tool one that prevents "clear seeing", which
    seems to be what one uses a divinatory tool for anyway.
    
    I don't think the Thoth deck is evil.  I do think that if one wants
    to use it, it has more than the usual power to invoke the Shadows
    within the self.  If one is either uncomfortable or unacquainted
    with one's Shadows, it may not be the tool for you.
    
    But for those who are not uncomfortable, it is a wonderful tool.
    I use it for personal (and recently, for other people) readings
    once a week.
    
    Marcia

    RE: .66
    
    My SO uses the Hanson-Roberts deck.  I think it is a pretty good
    deck, though not quite the kind that I read best from.
    
    The symbolism is very similar to the Rider-Waite deck, but the artwork
    is better, and the colors are also more appealing.
    
    It is a deck that I would recommend for someone learning to read
    Tarot, or for anyone who finds it appealing.
    
    Elizabeth

    Well I finally did it too.  I picked up the Mythic Tarot by Juliet
    Sharman-Burke and Liz Greene.  It set me back $20.00 at a
    Mackineze-White book store.
    
    It comes with full sized cards in 8 or 10 colors, uses the Celtic
    Cross layout, a 216 page Black Book for instructions and a black
    non-wrinkle cloth with the card layout printed on it.
    
    The deck seems a little different from the rest but seems to include
    most of the important symbolism.  It is based upon Greek gods from
    the ancient past ie., The Fool is Dionysos, the Magciain is of course
    Hermes, The Empress is Demter, The Emperor is Zeus, The High Priestess
    is Persephone, The Hierphant is Chiron, The Chariot is Ares, Justice
    is Athene, Temperence is Iris, Strength is Hercules, The Hermit
    is Chronos, The Wheel of Fortunes is associated with the Three Moirai,
    The Hanged Man is Prometheus, Death is Hades, The Devil is Pan,
    the Tower is associated with Poseidon, The Star is associated with
    Pandora, The Moon is Hecate, The Sun is Apollo, Judgement is Hermes
    the Psychomorph, and the World is associated with Hermaphroditus.
                  
    The suite of Cups is associated with Eros and Phyche, the suite
    of Wands is associated with Jason and the Argo, the suite of Swords
    is asociated with Orestes and the tale of the house of Atreus, and
    the suite of Pentacles is associated with the tale of Daedalus.
    
    The artwork looks good.  I think I am going to like this stuff.
    
      Mikie?

    Hello, I'm a new noter and my last entry of thirty some-odd lines
    was completely wiped out so here goes....
    I was given the Aquarian Tarot Deck for my thirteenth birthday and
    have been very happy with it during the ensuing fifteen years. I
    did go out a try to buy another deck and ended up with the same
    one! However, it has not yeilded anywhere near the same results
    as my tried and true original deck, so I think there must be some
    truth in the belief that decks given as gifts are powerful.
    if this note sticks...more later
    
    renee

    O.K.... That worked so her's more.
    I have always done readings for myself. when I started
    I would read anything into it that I wanted, but with age
    the miniscule amounts of self discipline I possess, I 
    learned to take the cards more objectively.
    I have asked many questions for myself and my friends
    which have been answered appropriately. When I was
    pregnant with my first I asked if it would be a girl
    or a boy (I really wanted girls), for the first kid the
    cards said I would have a girl but shame on me for
    asking! Life is so precious in any form etc. Well, I
    was just too curious the second time around, and the cards
    refused to tell..I had another much wanted girl but I
    was considerably humbled.
    
    I have found that frivolous questions handled frivolously
    yield totally off the wall answers. or strong reprimands.
    But any question asked in ernest with a true feeling of
    surrender to the guidance of the powers that be has almost
    always had good results. Not always those that I would have
    wanted, but food for thought.
    
    Renee

    Re .72 and the "Blank Card"
    
    That's quite interesting.  There is an extremely complex tarot
    divination procedure described by Aleister Crowley, which is a
    variant of a method described in the papers of the Golden Dawn.
    In this procedure, which involves making several spreads, one cuts
    the deck at each stage and looks for the Significator in a
    particular pile, corresponding to the nature of the question.  If
    you don't find it, that's the end of the divination. 
    
    I actually tried this several years ago.  I was trying to figure
    out if it was a reasonable thing to take my motorcycle and
    sidecar, my friend, and a bunch of camping gear from Massachusetts
    to a sidecar rally in Pennsylvania.  I just *could not* get past
    the first spread, on two occasions several days apart. 
    
    Then I found, during a casual inspection, that the cotter pin
    through the nut on the sidecar wheel had broken and fallen out,
    and the nut was loose.  I replaced the cotter pin. 
    
    I tried the Book of Thoth again.  I knew it was *hot* when not
    only did the Significator pop up in the right pile, but on top of
    that I selected out a subset of the cards in the pile according to
    procedure, and one of the subset was a three of disks!  I laughed
    and laughed. 
    
    The upshot of it was that yes, it would all be fun, but it would
    also be challenging and logistically speaking it would be at the
    hairy limits. 
    
    Sure enough it rained part of the way down.  On the return trip we
    hit the biggest pothole I've ever seen, bending the sidecar axle
    and trashing the alignment so that the tire was all-but-done-for.
    But we did make it back, I got a trophy for coming so far,
    and we saw neat things and met a lot of people at the rally.
    
    So there is something to be said for an oracle that reports parity
    errors.  "Please check the number and dial again!" 
    
    Pat Hardy
    

    Please tell more about your "computer" readings!!  I think
    the idea of a blank card is an excellent one!  Sometimes I
    feel as if the reading is telling me I'm wasting my time  
    but am not certain.  I guess I want things to be more clear
    cut...
    
    (that's what comes of being a Libra...we have such a difficult
     time making decisions!  Now, that could be an interesting topic.
     Does the astrological sign of the reader affect the interpretation?)
    
    

    Re: 3.74
    
    It might, it might.  I read for myself and have tended to find that
    the cards that correlate with my Ascendent, Sun and Moon signs crop
    up frequently in readings.  Whenever I see them in a reading, I
    immediately get a sense that the rest of the reading is going to
    be very much in line with my true self, and that even if problems
    are indicated I'm going to be able to work them out and feel good
    about having done so.
    
    Marcia

    re "significators"

    I have used significator cards in Tarot reading since I first got serious
    about the subject.
    
    Does anybody have any feeling as to how to select the significators?
    
    When reading for myself I use astrological signs: if the significant
    cards don't show up then the reading is void and I try again. If three
    successive spreads fail, then I try another day.
    
    When reading for other people I usually select two significators for
    them: one based on numerology - reduce their name as they usually use
    it to a number - the equivalent card is a significator. Secondly the
    birth sign gives a significator. For the third I ask the subject to
    select a card from the Major Arcana that appeals to them. This gives
    me three significators (though the different selection methods may lead
    to "coincidences", I tend to view those as important). Again a spread
    is irrelevant if the significators don't appear. Three successive failures
    and the attempt is barren. 

    re: .76
    
    I think you have some good approaches to selecting the significator.
    One friend of mine attended a Tarot class and the teacher did not
    like to use a significator because it then removed the card from
    showing up in the reading.  Your way includes it, and seems to be
    a much better approach.  Thanks for the information!
    
    Carole
    

    I allow the deck to select my significator, so it is different with
    each reading.  The significator is therefore the first card I draw.
    When I blend it into the reading, it signifies my current "inner 
    reality" or energy.  If there is an ongoing issue, I'm surprised
    at how often the same card pops up.
    
    The idea of selecting one beforehand and then seeing where it crops
    up (if it does) in the reading is intriguing.  There are some cards
    that I regard as sort of constant archetypes for me, a lot like
    one's natal chart.  I don't use them as significators, but when they 
    crop up in a reading I look them over very carefully, since they
    seem to indicate that at that point in time in that position in
    the spread, something basic to my nature is being activated.  The
    ones I use are:
	o Major Arcana indicating the rising sign, sun sign and
    	  moon sign
    
    	o Court Cards for each of these factors;
    
    	o Pip Cards indicating the decanate position of each of
    	  these factors;
    
    	o Major Arcana resulting from numerological reductions of 
    	  my first name and birth date.
    
    Marcia
    

                            <HELP>
    
    I am trying again.  This is the first time I have used the NOTES
    files, so please be patient!
    
    I have just spent some time reading through all the notes on TAROT.
    And for an absolute beginner I am lost!  I guess from reading the
    messages and not recognising the nodes that most of you are in
    the States??  I am in DEC Park 2, Reading, UK.  I have been with
    Digital since December 1986 (still a 'freshwoman'!) .
    
    Anyway....
    
    I have been having Tarot reading for a couple of years and I have
    now found a reader who I feel some 'bond' with.  From these readings
    and through her contacts I have had my natal chart produced and
    more recently have been through 'Regression' (twice), both times
    with successful and interesting experiences.
    
    To get back to Tarot...
    In my last reading I was told that I had 'psychic ability deep within
    me' (ie: (as I interpretted it) from a previous life).  This did
    not surprise me and I was also told that the New Year (1987) would
    see my 'ability' being developed (or re-discovered)....... could
    finding DEJAVU in the notes files be the beginning?  Hence my plea
    <HELP>.
    
    There seems to be regular contributors to this conference (PEN::KALLIS,
    STOWMA::ARDINI, USHS01::MCALLISTER, DY0780::SCHNEIDER, LATOUR::TILLSON)
    who are well-read and much further advanced than I,  perhaps you
    can point me in the right direction.... a beginners book maybe,
    not only on Tarot, but other subject I touched on above.  Any help
    would be very much appreciated.
    
    Being a true Capricorn, once I have scratched the surface I must
    dig deeper, part of the 'story' is not enough.
    
    Thanking you for your help in advance
    Janice 
    

RE: .80
    
    I have started a new topic (323) for replies to this note.
    
    					Topher

    I have stumbled on an interesting technique of selecting a
    significator and using it in a reading.  As many may know, the signs
    of the Zodiac correlate with certain cards in the Major Arcana:
    
    	Aries			The Emporer
    	Taurus			The Heirophant
    	Gemini			The Lovers
    	Cancer			The Chariot
    	Leo			Strength
    	Virgo			The Hermit
    	Libra			Justice
    	Scorpio			Death
    	Sagittarius		Temperance
    	Capricorn		The Devil
    	Aquarius		The Star
    	Pisces			The Moon
    
    Each of these signs is on the cusp of one of the houses in your
    chart.  Each of you have an area of life, symbolized by a certain
    house, where you are, for instance, "Arian".  Or "Taurean".  Or
    "Virgoan".  Which house is invested with what energy is dependent
    on your time of birth.
    
    When doing a reading that I can narrow down to a question about
    the affairs of a specific "House", I use the Major Arcana that
    represents the sign on that House's cusp as the Significator.  Example:
    I have Virgo on the cusp of the 2nd House of personal talents, values,
    and resources.  If asking a question about the best use of my talents,
    or insight into what those talents are, I will use The Hermit as
    the Significator for that reading.
    
    I've only just begun this, but the technique seems to show promise
    in producing relevant, insightful information for my astrologically
    oriented mind.
    
    Marcia
          

Has  anyone  had any experience with the Tarot of  the  Wicca?   I 
first saw this deck in June '86.   My [then] girlfriend [now wife] 
and I were at an SCA event in Lisbon NH.   There was a 'bazaar' in 
the  town  hall and I was helping some of the people set  up  some 
tables.  One of my ex-wife's friends was showing off her new deck.  
I  took  one  look at it and immediately thought  it  was  a  very 
interesting deck.

The  artwork was done by a Japanese person [the name  escapes  me] 
and others more into the field say it is very 'Alexandrian'.

For the first time *ever*, I *had* to have this deck.  Until then, 
tarot was a minor interest with some interesting results [more  on 
that in another note].   It seemed a most interesting  coincidence 
[?]   that  my  significator  [King  of  Swords]  bore  an   eerie 
resemblance to me.   I mean,  it could have been something between 
my  brother  [if I had one] and a clone [which I'm not  likely  to 
get].

I  found one at 'Arsenic and Old Lace'.   It's rather  interesting 
shop on Mass.  Ave in Cambridge, Massachusettes.  If you decide to 
check this place out,  however,  I should warn you about what they 
have in the basement.   They have a skeleton with Christmas  balls 
hanging off of it.  A lot of 'sensitives' have gotten a lot of bad 
vibes from the downstairs.

Comments?

still searching,
dj

I had an experience with some friends on New Year's Eve  1985 that 
I have to let SOMEone know about.  I was attending a party over at 
my ex-wife's apartment with some friends.   As the night wore  on, 
we  decided it would be fun if our resident  tarot  expert,  Betsy 
Adler, would do some readings.  It first started out as one or two 
of us but the cards were being *extremely* co-operative so  before 
long  we had a line ["No,  you're after me and I'm after  her  but 
Deb is next, etc.."].

Well,  she ended up doing eight readings that night.   ALL 8  HAVE 
COME 100% TRUE!

She got me, more of a skeptic at the time, to start re-thinking my 
thoughts.   It  said that my long term of  [involuntary]  celibacy 
would soon be over [I started dating someone at the party about  4 
months later and I married her last Saturday].

Cecilia [my new wife] had a reading that said she,  too, would get 
a new interest in the same kind of time frame.

There were other friends of ours whose love lives were in  turmoil 
that  had their next few months quite accurately  predicted.   She 
confirmed  people's  fears that things and people in  their  pasts 
would be staying in their pasts.

Breakups  were  predicted  and  came  true  within  weeks.    Also 
predicted was my ex-wife never getting back with her ex-boyfriend.

Another one had her relationships breakup AND the loss of her  job 
hit on the nose.

There were people at the party she didn't even know well that  she 
ended up getting perfect hits on.

I guess it goes to show what can be done in the hands of a skilled 
reader/interpereter

Story related with permission,
dj

Actually,  she  heard I was on this conference and was  asking  if 
there was any way she could get on.

    re .83: Tarot of the Wicca
    
    I've been looking for a copy of this deck for a while (I briefly handled
    one a few years ago).
    
    If forced to (I need chloroform to go to Boston) I'll try the source
    you quote: meanwhile does anybody know a mail order source for this
    deck?
    
    /. Ian .\

    Re .85:
    
    You might try some of the suburban occult shops.  I've mentioned
    The House of Zodiac before; if they don't have the deck (and they
    have a number of different ones), they can order it for you.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    Also Re: .85
    
    I, and perhaps others, love to go into Town; I'd be happy to look
    for it when I'm next in Cambridge (and I know right where Arsenic
    & Old Lace is).
    
    Marcia

    I just took a trip to Framingham and stopped in at the House of
    Zodiac.  Well, they have it for $14.00 + tax.
    
    BTW, if you've never been there, it's at Shopper's World in Framingham
    off Rte. 9.  It also 'feels' nicer than Arsenic and Old Lace.
    
    dj

    Thanks : Framingham is more reasonable than the car theft capital of
    the western world (soft top cars with doors that don't lock are not
    designed for parking in Boston). 
    
    I'll try there.
    
    thanx for the info.
    
    /. Ian .\

    Yesterday I came across a book and set of cards (similar to Tarot).
    The title was "Way of the Cartouche" by Murry Hope.
    
    Has anyone had any experience with this medium.
    
    thanks,
    peace

    I only read the Tarot for myself.  One of the things I do is not
    only ask specific questions about specific issues, but also just
    check into "what's happening" today or this week (sort of like looking
    at the internal weather forecast?).  I discovered it was a bit much
    to go through a complex spread of many cards just to get an idea
    of dominant energies for the day or week.  So I have experimented
    with two different 3-card spreads that have turned up a high "hit
    rate" in pinpointing my internal state for a short period of time.
    
    Spread #1:  This one many of you will already know.  After shuffling
    and cutting the deck, you simply lay out the 1st three cards in
    the positions of Significator, Cover and Cross cards--as if you
    were starting a Celtic Cross layout.  I learned of this spread in
    a Tarot class and our teacher recommended it for a daily reading.
    He also recommended keeping a dairy of all readings, looking it
    over for trends, highlights, etc.  I have found it to be pretty
    good at pinpointing my internal urges (Significator) the present
    outward situation (Cover) and potential problems/tests (Cross).
    
    Spread #2:  This one I read about in _Tarot For Yourself_ by Mary
    K. Greer.  You first divide the cards into three stacks:  Major
    Arcana, the Court, and the Minor Arcana.  You shuffle and cut each
    stack and draw a card from each.  What the three cards represent
    is:
    
    	Major Arcana	archetypal energy within the self that desires
    			expression;
    	Court Card	facet of the self choosing to work on/with that
    			energy;
    	Minor Arcana	mundane situation the particular facet of the
    			self is choosing in order to work on/with the
    			Major Arcana archetype.
    
    I have found this particular spread to be _very_ accurate for me,
    especially when done on a weekly basis.
    
    Anyone out there have any other 3-card or other simple spreads they
    like?
    
    Marcia

    Having read through all 91 replies over the past few days, I have
    been inspired to run out and buy myself a tarot deck (Aquarian)
    and companion book.  I do have some questions that my book ("Psychic
    Tarot" by Ijanian or something like that) does not answer.
    
    First of all, people have mentioned blessing the deck before using
    it.  How does one go about doing this?  I have a feeling that I
    need to invest in another book.  Does anyone have a favorite for
    absolute beginners? 
    
    "Seasoning" the deck was also mentioned (I think this meant sleeping
    with it under your pillow).  My book mentioned this as a good thing
    to do, but didn't refer to it in the same way or mention how long
    one should do this before using the deck.  Any comments?
    
    I haven't used my deck yet, (don't feel ready), but have looked
    through it and been careful not to shuffle it around.  There are
    two vaguely strange things about it.  One is that all cards are
    in order and facing the same way, except the devil which is inverted.
    Is this standard?  If so why?  If not, what do you think?  The other
    strange thing is that I have two Aces of Pentacles.  It was an
    accident, no doubt, but what do I do with the extra Ace?  Anything?
    Should I try to read any meaning into it?
    
    I've really become facinated with this subject since starting "dejavu."
    I was a little uncomfortable buying the deck (at "House of Zodiac,"
    thanks for the recommendation).  But this is all very new to me,
    so maybe that accounts for my feelings.  I chose the Aquarian deck
    for purely asthetic reasons (I almost bought the Morgan-Greer because
    it felt a little more comfortable, but really thought that the Aquarian
    was beautiful).  What do people think of this deck?
    
    I'm really looking forward to doing my first reading, but the book
    I have stresses preparing yourself and I have a little ways to go on
    that, plus I want to know a bit more before beginning.  (We Virgos
    just have to do things the right way)!
    
    Thanks in advance for the advice.
    
    - Sarah
                                          

    re .92:
    
    You don't have to limit yourself to a single deck; I have several.
     If the Morgan-Greer (a favorite of mine) is "more comfortable,"
    that's a sign that it's probably the deck you ought to use.  Aquarian's
    okay, and so is Sacred Rose (I have both of these).
    
    There are several good beginning books, but perhaps the most
    interesting thing is to look up a short essay, "The Symbolism of
    the Tarot," by Ouspensky, which is both sold as a thin book (a Dover
    Press reprint, using the Rider-Waite Major Arcana as a sort of extended
    cover) and is a section within his work, _A New Model of the Universe_.
    This latter is a slightly expanded version of the earlier work Dover
    reprinted.
    
    I see no great significance in getting an extra Ace of Pentacles,
    but it's probably not a bad omen.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr. 

    I, too, consider myself a Tarot beginner and only read for myself.
    So here's two cents on your questions.
    
    About blessing:  not everyone does this.  My Tarot teacher felt
    it was very good to do before a reading, just as it might be good
    to do before undertaking any type of potentially psychic activity
    (or even just an activity where you might feel emotionally vulnerable
    to what you might find).  Some people may go through elaborate rituals,
    but a simple, short prayer to your personal Deity will do just fine,
    in my experience.  I was on the road to building elaborate rituals
    myself; then, during a crisis, I picked up the cards to help me
    "read" the situation, and all I could get out was: "Please, God,
    help and protect me while I look for an answer to my question."
    It turned out to be one of the best readings I had.  As others have
    said elsewhere in this file, it's the _intent_ that animates any
    prayer, reading or ritual.
    
    On seasoning:  This was a new-ish concept to me, although it kinda
    made sense.  After all, my shoes don't fit quite right when I buy
    them either; I have to wear them for awhile to get them into the
    shape of my feet.  Perhaps you don't have to sleep with the deck,
    but I found that just handling it and studying the pictures helped
    "season" mine.  So do handle it; if you feel shy or fearful, just
    bless your efforts first and then handle happily away.  And in fact,
    one of the ways that my own "textbook" on Tarot recommends to cleanse
    the cards before and after any reading is to shuffle them.  As to
    how long one should season a deck, that depends entirely on the
    person and deck.  I have a feeling that if a deck really "clicks"
    with you, somewhat less seasoning may be required to make it feel
    like "your own" than with one that is not as subliminally right
    --sort of like good-fitting shoes vs. cheap-**** ones (can you tell
    I have foot trouble?).
    
    On beginner's books:  I remember wishing for a book and then finding
    _Tarot For Yourself_ in the Paperback Booksmith, of all places (yes,
    they still carry it).  It has a lot of neat information, including
    guided visualisations to help you get familiar with the cards and
    intuitively sense their meanings.  I now find that when I do a spread
    it is "intuitively obvious" to me; I only go to the specific guidebook
    for my deck to help articulate what the intuition has subliminally
    discerned.
    
    I don't know if the Aquarian Tarot makers deliberately place the
    Devil card in the deck upside down, or if it was just happenstance.
    Like any other product, there may be extra parts (like the 3 odd
    screws in my new bookcase) or mistakes (like the pants I ordered
    that were missing a button) or just peculiarities in packaging 
    (like the 57 or so straight pins that are stuck in every conceivable 
    place in a man's dress shirt).  As Steve said in .93, there's probably 
    no strange omen implied here.
    
    Happy reading,
    
    Marcia

re: .92

   The "standard" books for beginners are Eden Gray's (I think she has
   three of them, but they seem interchangeable to me).  The title escapes
   me at the moment.  Her books are based on the Rider deck.  (Let me
   reiterate a previous posting: the Rider deck is, in my opinion, far and
   away the best deck for beginners.  It deals with the essentials with
   much less injection of the designer's (A.E. Waite, an outstanding occult
   scholar) or the artist's (Pamela Goldman Smith) personal philosophies
   than most other decks.  Almost all other modern decks have been based on
   the Rider deck, quite explicitly modifying it in order to include the
   designer's personal occult philosophy.  Unless you are *very* strongly
   drawn to a particular deck, I would recommend the Rider pack. There is
   plenty of time to zero in on a more individualistic deck, if you need
   one, when you know the Tarot better.  This is in no way, please note, a
   negative evaluation of any other deck -- you don't learn photography by
   going out and buying a camera designed for action news photography, you
   do that when you know you are mostly interested in *doing* quick action
   shots.  Having said this, I think that the Aquarian deck is probably the
   second best beginners' deck and *is* quite beautiful). 

   In my opinion (and there are no absolutes with the Tarot) the various
   deck preparations have as their purpose the preparation of the owner for
   the deck not the other way around -- i.e. it is a psychological process
   which encourages a type of "bonding" on the part of the owner. After the
   ritual (of whatever level of formality) their is a sense of having made
   the deck "mine".  Look into yourself and decide whether you need this,
   and if so, what you need.  I know many readers who cannot get a good
   reading without some preparation of the deck, and others who do quite
   well with little or none. 

   If the extra ace means anything, which I doubt, in my style of
   interpreting the Tarot symbolism it would have to be good omen.  Without
   some context indicating an excess, the ace of pentacles represents the
   source of material wealth and well-being.  Again as I read the Tarot,
   inversion can only have meaning within a context, which we don't really
   have here.  If I was going to take this as a "reading" therefore, I
   would guess this was simply a device for singling the card out.  We
   would then have as an interpretation of the two "irregularities" that
   the purchase of the deck represents the start of a transformation -- the
   start of a new phase in your life -- which will result in, possibly
   among other changes, material well-being.  (But I wouldn't take this too
   seriously). 

   As far as getting started is concerned -- I personally would recommend
   plunging right in.  Do a bunch of readings by laying the cards out and
   looking up each one.  Get a feel for how they work.  Look for
   inter-relations.  *Don't*, however, expect great results -- until you
   have learned the meanings of the cards (and I don't mean the
   *descriptions* of the meanings) your results will mostly simply be
   so-so. This *is* the preparation for doing "real" readings.  Some people
   swear by doing readings for themselves, but I believe, at least for a
   beginner, that this is a mistake.  It's too easy to read your hopes and
   fears into the cards, rather than discovering what they "really" mean
   (or, at least, can mean).  Do training readings on your family and
   friends as much as they can stand it, then do readings on, for example,
   world events. 

				Topher

    [I love it when a favorite old topic gets a few new 'unseens' :-)]
    
    The Aquarian Tarot is probably good for beginners in that it has
    very descriptive pictures.  The best reader I ever met knows the
    meanings of the cards from the pictures themselves.  The artwork
    is the trigger.
    
    With me, I went through some of the "generic/popular" and had good
    readings with the majority [one was positively sinister, but that
    was just that particular deck, not all of the decks of that kind].
    
    One day, I was at a harper's fair and someone showed me a new deck
    and it really did 'talk' to me.  All of a sudden, I *had* to have
    this particular kind of deck [Tarot of the Wicca].  One interesting
    coincidence is that my significator [King of Swords] had an uncanny
    resemblence to me.
    
    You may find, with more experience, that different decks may give
    better readings for certain subjects.  Keep your mind open [to quote
    Steve Kallis] because there are a *lot* of decks there. [More than
    I ever thought could be printed].  Go with your feelings.  They
    will usually steer you in the right direction.

    In addition to _Tarot for Yourself_ and a handbook or 2 that came
    with tarot decks, I bought _Choice Centered Tarot_, and have found
    that book to be of great help in learning (I'm a beginner too).
    I forget the author, but I got it at House of Zodiac, which is
    knee-deep in Tarot books (as well as books on many other occult-type
    subjects).
    
    Re .-1: I found that the deck I like using the most was the Native
    American, although it's still difficult for me to "translate" the
    symbols into standard Tarot symbols.....until...I saw the Tarot
    of the Wicca. Wow! Me too. I *had* to have that deck! When I bought
    it, at HOZ, I was told it was now out of print and was going to
    be a collector's item. They only had 3 left, I think. Boy, do I
    like that deck. If nothing else, it's just beautiful to look at...
    

    Wow!  Thank you everyone for the constructive input!  I took the
    advice to just plunge right in last night (I felt ready to) and
    did a few readings on myself (I figured I'd give it a shot).  I
    didn't expect much, and was really surprised by the results.  The
    cards I received made *alot* of sense, and I really enjoyed picking
    out a few intuitive interpretations.  There might have been a little
    bit of projecting my hopes and fears into the reading, but I don't
    think so.  I didn't get the answer I was hoping for, but I did get
    a clear and accurate, if dismal, picture.  All in all, I was pleased
    and surprised that the reading went so well!
    
    I didn't use my Indicator card in the middle of my cross so I could 
    see if it turned up in the reading (which it did in a most interesting 
    place and way).  My book suggested this, but I wonder if it was the right
    thing to do.  I'll look back in the notes to see what other people's
    favorite methods are.
    
    I may try doing a reading for a friend tonight, but I must admit
    that last night left me kind of drained.  I think that I was sort
    of pushing things a little.  I'll try to follow my intuition tonight.
    
    Thanks again for everyone's advice, and thanks for letting me ramble
    on with my beginner's enthusiasm!
    
    I feel like I've discovered an invaluable resource here!
    
    					
    					- Sarah
                                   
    
    
    this, 

    Personally, I can rarely do two readings in one day and never more
    than that.
    
    				Topher

    THe House of the Zodica in Farmingham, Ma has the dec "Tarot of
    the Wicca"
    
    Regards,
    peace
    

    
    I've just started working with Tarot and have had some interesting
    experiences with it already. I keep a journal of my personal readings;
    a few cards turn up consistently, like The Tower and the Prince
    of Cups. I use the Thoth deck.
    
    Last night I performed an exercise which numerically determines
    three key Tarot archetypes which signify The Karma, The Soul, and
    The Work...basically they indicate what you're working on in this
    lifetime (karma), what you're soul's "grand purpose" is, and what
    you should be working on this year. The first formula worked out
    to 5, The Heirophant. The second formula worked out to 5, The
    Heirophant. The third formula worked out to be 5, The Heirophant.
    
    I sensed a pattern.
    
    My intent is to use the Tarot for pathwork, rather than divination.
    I'll share what I learn with my friends in DEJAVU over the next
    few months.
    
    Tananda
    

    That sounds really interesting.  What was the exercise Tananda?
    Is it something we could try?

    
    DETERMINING YOUR PERSONALITY, SOUL, AND YEAR CARDS
    
    Add the numbers corresponding to the day, month, and year of your
    birth:
    
    			10
    		    +	15
    		    + 1960	
		    ------
    		      1985	
                      
    	Combine the result to obtain a two-digit number between 1 and
    22:
    		    1 + 9 + 8 + 5 = 23
     		        
    	This is your Personality number and it corresponds to a card
    in the Major Arcana. The personality card indicates what it is that
    your soul is to learn in this lifetime.
    
    	To determine your Soul number, reduce the Personality number.
    The Soul card indicates your soul's overall purpose across all of
    its lifetimes. In my case, 23 >22 so I had to reduce anyway to get
    the Personality number: My Personality and Soul cards are the same;
    I am working this lifetime on the same path as my overall plan.
    
    			    2 + 3 = 5 The Hierophant
    
    	The Year card tells you what to expect in this year in the way
    of lessons and tests. To find it, add the month and day of your
    birth to the year, reducing results greater than 22:
    
    			10
    		    +   15
    		    + 1987
    		    ------
    		      2012
    
    			2 + 0 + 1 + 2 = 5 The Hierophant
    
    This exercise is from _Tarot For Your Self_ by Mary Greer.
    
    Tananda
    

    Many replies in the note on pendulum work mentioned the importance
    of asking permission to ask questions.  This seemed like a valid
    concept for something like the Tarot as well, so I devised a method
    of asking permission to ask my question.  If I receive a "no" answer
    I try again another day.  The answers to specific questions that
    I've received have been much more accurate when the cards have given
    me a "yes" answer.
    
    Here's what I do.
    
    I go through the normal ritual of relaxing, centering, blessing
    the effort, then shuffling the cards while concentrating on the
    question.  But before laying out the spread I first ask two questions:
    
    Cut the cards once, ask:  "Are the cards _able_ to answer my question?"
    
    Cut the cards once more, ask:  "Are the cards _willing_ to answer
    my question?"
    
    A no answer to either one means that I (regretfully) put the deck
    away for another try later.  A yes answer, and I again concentrate
    on the question while doing a final shuffle, then the layout.
    
    Marcia

    
    
    Marcia,
    
    Do you determine the Yes/No answer by the card being up or inverted?
    Do you do any analyses of the particular cards that come up?
    
    Carole
    

    I determine the Yes/No by reading the particular card that comes
    up, rather than by whether the card is right-side-up or reversed.
    For instance, in one session, when I asked "are the cards _able_
    to answer" I turned up Prince of Wands (Thoth deck).  I took this 
    as a Yes, and especially so for me, since the card represents my 
    rising sign.  When I asked if the cards were _willing_ to answer 
    I turned up the 7 of Cups.  While working with the Thoth deck, our 
    class nicknamed this card the Green Slime Card; looked like a definite
    No to me.  Both cards were right-side-up, but I put away the deck.
    I plan to ask again at the full Moon, since this particular question
    is important to me.
    
    Marcia

    My interest in Tarot is sparking.....can you suggest cards to buy
    and any books to help me learn more?

RE: .107
    
    A lot of the notes, particularly some of the earlier ones, in this
    very topic are devoted to that.  I know there is a lot to wade through
    but I think you'll find it worth it.
    
    						Topher

    re 107:
    
    I would suggest _Tarot for Yourself_ (Don't remember the author),
    and the Hanson-Roberts deck.  It is similar to the Rider-Waite deck,
    but better artwork and more clear symbols.  There are other simple
    decks on the market - you can look around.
    
    I would definitely tell you to *avoid* the Thoth deck, and any deck
    that comes from a foreign culture (Egyptian, South American, Chinese,
    or anything else you are not very familiar with) at first, until
    you get the feel for the cards.  At that time, you will probably
    want to buy another deck that speaks more directly to you.
    
    Elizabeth

    While I am on this subject, I would like to tell you about a new
    deck I acquired recently.
    
    It is called the Morgan's tarot.  It is clearly a product of the
    sixties.  It is a black and white deck, contains 88 (not 78) cards,
    and has some rather interesting cards - everything from "Grass",
    to "Heavy", to "This may not be a perfect circle, but it is a
    perfect... whatever it is".
    
    I wasn't sure what to think about it at first - it was something
    my SO wanted.  So, I started looking through, and shuffling and
    doing sample readings on the new cards.  I was having trouble
    physically handling the cards, and threw one across the room.  I
    looked at that card (cards thrown out usually have some significance).
    It said "Somewhere there is an energy leak".  I laughed for quite
    awhile.  After that, I stopped having trouble shuffling the cards,
    and started getting incredibly good readings - especially for a
    new, unfamiliar deck.  I told my SO that they were mine, and if
    he wanted his own, he would have to go back to the store I bought
    them at.  I've been using it almost exclusively since.
    
    Elizabeth

    This has been a most fascinating note! I have been reading tarot
    for 15 years, and I have never known anyone else who did. 
    
    I was raised a Catholic, and I was always drawn to the mysticism
    of it; however, the doctrine eventually got to me, and I could not
    "in good faith" continue to be a Catholic. By that I mean I could
    not ignore fundamental differences between what I believed and what
    the Church taught. When I was married the first time, I tried
    Lutheranism for awhile to please my new in-laws, and found it to
    be appallingly dogmatic, bigotted and completely empty emotionally.
    After my divorce I never went to church again. After a few years
    I felt that I didn't believe in anything anymore. I was overworked,
    trying to raise three children alone and trying to make a living,
    and I felt alienated even from myself. I was very depressed for
    years!
    
    Although I was given a Swiss deck 15 years ago, and I enjoyed reading
    it occasionally, the deck itself did not appeal to me particularly,
    so I never got "serious" about it. A couple of years ago, though,
    I was in a bookstore that had a shelf of tarot decks, and I got
    very excited. I looked at all of the decks, but when I saw the Voyager
    deck I was stunned! I have never seen such a wonderful deck. EVERY
    card is fascinating and beautiful! If you have never seen this deck,
    you should just take a look at it. I *had* to have it. 
    
    Since I have had this deck, I have developed a ritual for myself that
    gives me a great sense of *peace*. When the children have gone to
    sleep, I arrange some candles on the coffee table, light some incense,
    bless the cards, and perform a small, 6-card "daily" spread that I have
    developed for myself. I meditate over the cards for a little time -
    sometimes 10 minutes, sometimes 20, depending on my mood and what the
    cards have to tell me. Sometimes I will have a cup of herb tea,
    sometimes a glass of wine. Then, when I have received the message from
    the cards, I close my eyes and concentrate on sending my power to the
    sky, to blend with the power of the Spirit Mother. This took some time.
    When I started, I was very weak spiritually; I did not have enough
    power to reach beyond myself. Now I feel I have more spiritual energy. 
    
    This 30 minutes or so a day has made more difference in my life
    than anything else ever has. A year ago, when I moved and changed
    jobs, I stopped my ritual for over a month, and one day I realized
    that the old "sickness" was returning. I really believe in it now.
    By the way, I don't read for other people, or let other people handle
    my cards. Maybe I will be able to someday, but for now my relationship
    with my cards is intensely personal.
    
    - Jade 7    

RE: .111
    
    You might, if you wished, get a second deck to which you would be
    less emotionally/spiritually tied.  You could use this deck to read
    for others.  Perhaps even a different version of the Tarot.  In
    my experience, reading for others gives perspectives on the deck
    which meditation or reading for the self would never discover.
    
    Many readers, by the way, do not let the queriant touch their deck.
    
    					Topher

    
    re: books
    
    _Tarot for Yourself_ is a *very* good workbook. I also have used
    _Choice-Centered Tarot_. If you are interested in Tarot classes,
    let me know; I'll try to help you find one in the area (I'm intuiting
    that you're in the Greater Maynard Area).
    
    Something that you may find useful is to work through your deck
    a few cards at a time, writing down your impressions of each card.
    Do this *before* you start to read books on the subject. Spend as
    much time as you need on each card.
    
    Tarot reading is a grand exercise in trusting your intuition or
    "inner voice." I've found that readings for clients tend to become
    counseling sessions, with the cards serving as a framework for thinking
    through a particular problem. The point to remember is that the
    client (sometimes you) *already knows* what to do in any
    situation...it's your job as a reader/counselor to pull that
    information out of the client's subconscious mind.
    
    Tananda
    

    Hi,
    
    I was given the Motherpeace Tarot deck.  Has anyone else used these?
    
    I have found them to be very positive.
    
    Angela

    RE: Motherpeace
    
    I like the images, and I get a positive feeling from the deck (tho'
    I prefer to use the Native American or Wicca decks)
    
    ...but they're a b**ch to handle! :-(
    
    --DE
    

    If we think of thoughts as "real things", with thoughts bringing
    forth "action"; i.e., "cause" and "effect", then we can see how
    someone attuning with the "Cosmic" or "Akashic" records can make
    a prediction.
    
    Assume a motorist driving 100 m.p.h. down a freeway - all of a
    sudden the traffic comes to a stand-still - well, we all can predict
    what will occur. The same logic applies when accessing the
    psychic realm. By psychically analyzing various causes and effects
    for a particular situation, a person so inclined and talented, can
    then make a "prediction".
    
    Now, as to Tarot cards ? Their original use had NOTHING to do with
    fortune telling. I will not discuss that here - have fun researching
    this !
    
    A so-called psychic uses the Tarot or crystal ball as a device for
    concentration. If they are sincere, legitimate, etc., they will be
    contacting the Akasha itself for information (a "pure" crystal
    ball in the hands of a knowldegeable person is of more use and
    value than is currently believed).
    

    I just read through *ALL* the entries to the Tarot topic... Whew!
    I had no idea there was such a wide variety of decks and card reading
    techniques to explore.
    
    I bought a copy of the Mythic Tarot (I have a soulmate in .69) as
    a gift for my husband last Christmas; he barely looked at them,
    but I took them over (kind of like the Springsteen album he bought
    me for my birthday; it's his now).  Since then I've been doing periodic
    readings, only for myself, and have had very satisfying results.
    
    I do self-readings only when I'm in a particularly receptive,
    introspective frame of mind; and I've gained a degree of confidence
    in my abilities.
    
    After reading through the notes here, I realize I may have only
    tapped in to the outer fringe of the Tarot, and it's remarkable
    properties (it's kind of scary sometimes).
    
    Although I really like the Mythic Tarot deck (the cards are interpreted
    by relating their meaning to characters/stories in Classic Mythology;
    I was a fan of myths and legends as an adolescent), I think it's
    time for me to try some of the more traditional approaches described
    throughout this note.
    
    

    One of the reading practices I've been building for myself is what
    I've come to call the "new moon reading".  I lay out a Celtic Cross
    spread on the new moon, with the question in mind about the month
    ahead.
    
    It's the way I interpret the cards that makes the difference,
    especially in the "cross" part of the Celtic Cross.  The Significator,
    Cover and Cross card I read as usual (and for me, that means they
    signify, for that month, my inner reality, outer reality, and "test
    of the month").  The cross itself I lay out in the following fashion
    with the following meanings attached:
    
    
    
    				FULL MOON
    				    3
    
    
    
    		1ST QUARTER			LAST QUARTER
    		     2				      4
    
    
    
    				    1
    				NEW MOON
    
    This gives me additional information about emotional/inner states
    that overlay the basic Significator/Cover/Cross cards.  The remainder
    of the cards (the 4 laid in a line alongside the Cross) I read in
    their more traditional manner.
    
    I just went back last night and looked over my Tarot journal and
    was surprised at the concurrence of inner states with the cards
    that appeared in the Cross itself.  They appear to represent my
    inner issues for the "moonth" very well.
    
    Marcia

    I've just started reading this notes file so, partly by way of an
    introduction, here's my experiences with Tarot.
    
    A few years ago I started 'toying' with the Tarot and used the 
    'Witches Tarot' ( the ones designed for the Bond film ! ) as they
    seemed attractive at first glance - I think this was a bad move,
    I can sense very strange influences on this pack now. These
    disappeared after a while ( 'they have been removed' according to my 
    Mother who never liked them ! ) but I'd stopped using them after 
    finding out far too much about the people I was reading 
    for ( anyone else had a feeling of guilt after laying bare someone's
    secrets ? ).
    
    Early this year, I met a very 'aware' girl and felt I had to read
    her Tarot - the Waite pack virtually leapt at me and I've found
    them superb ; they don't need any effort to produce perfect clarity
    and consistency and they're spot on.
    
    I am now reading them again, but for very few, stable and aware
    people ( I believe unthinking readings can cause a lot of problems
    for people not able to fully comprehend what you say to them ).
    
    On the point of view of interpretation - I don't believe you should
    spend much time at all with other peoples descriptions ( get the
    gist and then evolve your own readings for each card ) as the clearest
    readings I have leap at me as soon as the cards hit the table. I
    would say the longer it takes you to interpret a reading ( not to
    explain it to the querent - that should take time ), the wider you're
    going to be of the mark.
    
    Self-reading I still find a little perplexing. Do they display
    what I feel ( or fear ) is going to happen, or do they display what
    IS going to happen ? and if you follow the 'personal reality' creation
    philosophy aren't they the same anyway ?
    
    I digress, 
    
    Any comments on the above ?
    
    Dave.

    I've just started exploring the Tarot, using the _Tarot for Yourself_
    workbook.  The author shows how to determine personality and soul cards,
    using one's birthday.  I am one of the exception cases... my birthday
    breaks down to 19 = 10 = 1;  she says that people with this
    configuration have all three cards (19/Sun, 10/Wheel of Fortune,
    1/Magician).    Later, she uses the soul number to determine one's
    'numerological lesson and opportunity' cards.   Does anybody know
    what my 'soul number' is for this purpose?
    
    btw, I used the cards to help me work a problem I'm having right
    now, using the Celtic Cross.  I bounced back and forth in the book
    to look up the traditional meanings of the cards, but it was fairly
    obvious to me from the start that the cards were significant for
    my problem.  It felt very i-ching-y.
    
    /bruce

    Your birth number is all three (19, 10, & 1) for this purpose. 
    You have the potential to be a 19 (Sun), as well as the 10 (The
    Wheel), and 1 (The Magician).  If you do not live up to your potential,
    you may not have them all.  In fact, you may have to work to get
    to use some of them.  If you want to achieve the best benefit from
    this, look at the Sun first.  If you do this, the rest should fall
    in line.  If you think about the meanings of these 3 cards, you
    will notice a pattern.  FYI, in ordinary numerology, your birth
    number is 1.
    
    Elizabeth
    

    re .27
          
�    For those more interested in getting deeper into the meanings of the Tarot,
�I heartily recommend Paul Foster Case's book (called something clever like
�"The Tarot").  He makes an excellent case for Waite having deliberately
�introduced errors into his deck.
    
    Topher, do you remember WHY Waite might have introduced errors?
    And, what kind of errors?  Incorrect imagery?  Interpretation?
    
    	bruce

    Re .122 (Bruce):
    
    Waite was perhaps one of the most elitist of the Hermetic Order
    of the Golden Dawn.  He had the pedantic streak in him, but it's
    my feeling that he always wanted to hold something back.  In one
    of his discussions about a rite from a grimoire, he said, 
    
    "Whether the victim of the process is to be torn in pieces alive
    does not explicitly appear, but may be inferred from the initial
    precaution.  This being the case, I have so modified the procedure
    that, in case it should be tried by a fool in these more civilized
    days, he will have only pains for his trouble -- by the hypothesis
    of the ceremonial art.  This is therefore a word to the fool."
    
    [The victim in question was to be a chicken, which, sacrificed,
    was to help in the process pf raising an "unclean spirit."  I will
    stifle any lengthy comments on the stupidity of wanting to raise
    _any_ unclean spirit, and get Waite's attitude.]  Notice here he's
    saying the equivalent of "I'm more balanced than some of you, my
    readers, so I'll tell you just enough so you can appreciate the
    extent of my knowledge, but not enough so you can make use of what
    I'm telling you."  I assume the errors he plugged into his cards
    were done in the same spirit.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

RE: .122,.123
    
    As Steve said, Waite was a member of the Golden Dawn, a very
    influential occultist organization (Crowley, for example, was also
    a member, though he broke with it, later).  I have a somewhat different
    interpretation of his character than Steve, however.  Waite was
    a bit of an ivory tower intellectual, an idealist and very much
    a stuffed shirt.  Far from being an elitist, Waite felt that knowledge
    was the provence of everyone.  Much of the GD's influence was because
    of its relevant openess, due in part to Waite's influence on the
    GD.
    
    In conflict with these ideals, however, were Waite's secrecy oaths
    to the GD (which he took seriously) and the rationale he accepted
    for those oaths.  He felt that historically, much of the purpose
    of secrecy of secret societies was 1) to avoid persecution (which
    he felt was no longer life-threatening by the time of the 20th
    century, and therefore no longer relevant) and 2) to have something
    to "sell" which he felt was beneath contempt.  Secrecy was justified
    only because he believed that some of the knowledge was dangerous
    to those who had not had the proper preparatory training.
    
    His writing abounds with the ambivalence caused by these conflicts.
    The example Steve cites bearing directly on the "too dangerous for
    the uninitiated" issue.  Its worth noting that Waite agrees that
    no sane person would summon an "unclean spirit" or a demon.  He
    presented the rituals for intellectual understanding rather than
    for use; then, as Steve noted, removed the firing pins on the worst of
    them.
    
    If Case is to believed, Waite modified the deck in order to conform
    to his oaths to the GD.  If my understanding of Waite's character
    is correct, I would guess that he did so reluctantly and only after
    appealing to the GD to "declassify" that information.
    
    According to Case, he modified some of the imagery with symbolic
    importance, (for example, in virtually all previous decks the
    Emperor is shown in profile, while in the Rider pack he is shown
    face forward, Case attached symbolic importance to this).  Waite
    also changed the order of some of the cards of the Major Arcanum,
    this obscured the correspondence between the cards of the Major
    Arcanum and the Cabalistic interpertation of the letters of the
    Hebrew alphabet.  When one reads Waite's book about the tarot
    (still available in trade paperback) his rationalizations for these
    changes seem rather artificial and strained.
    
    For someone interested in using the tarot to do readings, the changes
    in interpretation implied by these changes in form are insignificant.
    Even in meditations on the cards, the differences are minor compared
    to differences in interpretation from different authors.  The only
    real difference is that the structure of the tarot as a whole is
    blurred and obscured (though not completely hidden).
    
    					Topher

    Re .124 (Topher):
    
    >...................................................... Waite was
    >a bit of an ivory tower intellectual, an idealist and very much
    >a stuffed shirt.  Far from being an elitist, ...
    
    I think this is slightly terminological, Topher.  To me, a stuffed
    shirt is an elitist in drag.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    You're in rare form today Steve_:-)

    HI,I'm a new reader of DEJAVU and I 'm very interested in TAROT
    card reading. Could somebody tell me what my SOUL PERSONALITY card
    would be , and what it means and what effect it has on my life...MY
    DOB is MAY-11-1949.
                         THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP.
                             
                                    ADAM LAM

    This was taken off another network without permission. Please be
    careful who you release this too... B^)
    
    
Earlier comment on the Cuteness Tarot requires further comment and explication;
its adoption by the Yuppie New Agers has reached such a pitch of pop-culture
faddism that one is tempted to nickname it the Bow-Head Tarot.... 
   
The four suits-- Smurfs, Care Bears, Wuzzles, and My Little Ponies--- do indeed
represent the Four Elements of Cuteness: in order, Smallness, Niceness,
Fuzzines, and Simple-Mindedness...However, the Trumps are the most
thought-provoking (and distressing) ... 
   
As noted previously, the Strength card loses much of its "punch" in being
depicted as a Cabbage Patch Kid holding the mouth of a Hello Kitty....The Dog
and Wolf of the Moon trump DO lack something in being shown as Pound
Puppies....And the Tower, as a Transformer being turned by the Lightning into a
smiling robot (or dump truck) definitely lacks the urgency of the traditional
image.....but there is MORE to be noted. 
   
Exempli gratia: The Fool...It cannot be denied that the Cuteness Fool is,
undeniably, Foolish...Prissing alongside the precipice with his Gucci luggage
over his shoulder--- and is that TEDDY RUXPIN yapping at his feet???--- he is,
fer sher, a Fool...However, the possibility of Le Fou transmuting and evolving
into the Wise Fool ( as the Beatles' "Fool On The Hill") -- is placed in doubt
when we see that the face of this trump is, in sober and horrible fact, that of
Pee Wee Herman..... 
   
And let it be said forthrightly: the immemorial trump of The Lovers =DOES= lack
a portion of its dramatic tension as well as its erotic innuendo when the
Divine Pair are, let's be real, Miss Piggy and Kermit..... 
   
And, sure, it's natural that The Priestess should be Isis--- but MUST it be the
animated cartoon version? As that noted metaphysician Rodney Dangerfield put
it, gimme a BREAK...... 
   
Further descent into the pop-culture depths--- is the Maiden Goddess REALLY
named Mufffy?-- arrives with the Trump designated as The Magus. One could
hardly expect Merlin to inhabit the universe of Cuteness, I admit; consistency
is imperative, even if it be consistency of retchingly saccharine kitsch. But
MUST we have a Magus who looks distressingly like Doug Henning????? 
   
The horror, as Colonel Kurtz said in APOCALYPSE NOW.... The horror....I could
almost---that's =ALMOST= --- tolerate a Tonka Toys 300 Z-X as The Chariot. Very
nearly, thought not quite, the vacation-in-Jamaica ad version of The Sun could
be borne. With a great deal of tolerance, I could manage to avert suicide at
seeing King Kong Bundy seated on The Emperor's throne...After extensive yogic
breathing and therapeutic  consultation I can even accept the image of Madonna
in lieu of the Crowley/Harris depiction of The Star.... But there is a
limit!!!! Fritz Perls as the Thoth "Adjustment" card is more than can be
withstood! And when Uncle Aleister's card entitled "LUST" is a P.R. photo of
Dr. Ruth, I DRAW THE LINE!!!!!!! 
    
I mean, I know that each generation redraws the immortal archetypes in its own
image--- Morgan-Greer, Mystic Rose,  Xultun, Motherpeace--- but when the Ace of
Discs bears the imprint of the Franklin Mint-- one card every other
thoughtform, pay only $12.50 -- THIS WITCH DRAWS THE LINE!!!! 
   
  ARRRRRRGGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!             
    
   
   ***RAVEN*** Dragonfurious
   
     
  P.S. The final blow is the teen-rock group "MENUDO" crooning "Don't Be
Cruel" to illustrate the Ten of Swords....I WILL TAKE UP THE I CHING

    ... two years later, are you still collecting data??
    
    Nov. 3, 1947, 8:23pm, Denver Colorado.
    
    I chose the Crowley deck without hesitation (although it makes the
    hair stand up on the back of my neck!)
    
    Mary
    

    
    if anyone cares or is collecting data.
    (there is NO WAY i am going to read all 129 till i have lots of
    time on my hands)
    		i have the Crowley deck also!
    		i had the Rider Wait deck that i got way back in
    		1977 but alas it is no longer

    
    
    Hi folks! me again,
    	just finished reading ALL those little notesies of yours.
    	one thing...Ref Crowley= "Stupid", "Perverted", "Twit."
                                         
    	Well well, isn't that special??? 
        
    	Gee! lets make value judgements on other views that are stranger
    	and alot different than ours!!! Than we can be...
    
    		**FUNDAMENTALIST NEW-AGERS**
    
    	for a period of time i thought i might have strayed to the
    	christian notes files.
    
    	now this is the plan...1)tear apart Crowley for being a 
    				 satanist...yea thats the ticket!
    			       2)then we pounce on Gurdjieff for his
    				 Sociological and Political views.
    			       3)then we will call Lazarus a demon
    				 and burn anyone who has heard of him.
    			       4)and then we will smash in your windows
                                 and kick in your door. 
    
    
        yes an exageration i know but although i doubt anyone actually follows
	Crowley "to the letter" without "heeps of salt"  it is a bad habit to
    	get into.  			
                  of course this is comming from a Sag.  w/Scorpio R
    	(Jupiter/Pluto (note .55) :-})
    
    	and remember..."the early bird gets the worm, and the 12 year
    			prostitute gets the Ambassador." guess who???
    
    	mouse

    
    		i am a real pest arn't i!!!
    		3 entries in a row... sorry but believe its better than
    		starting a new note...
    
    	yesterday i went to the local occult bookstore and as chance
    would have it i started browsing through the Tarot decks. One
    particularly caught my eye. it's name is the Enoil Gavat Tarot.
    i asked how much it was and the owner, a good friend, told me
    that for normal people the cost was $25 but for me it would be $15.
    i bought the deck and cant believe how much info they jammed onto
    each card.
    			for example the Maj Arc has on each card...
    	1) Symbolic representation of the number of the major arc.
    		card 1-9.
    	2) cards 11-21 show the number that corresponds to the Hebrew
    		letter of the card.
    	3)letter of the Hebrew letter that corresponds to the card.
    	4)the esoteric symbol of the card.
    	5)letter of the sanscrit alph. that corresponds to the meaning
    		of the card.
    	6)the symbolic image (picture)
    	7)symbol of the zodiac or the planet that rules the card.
    	8)Letter of the vulgar Latin alphabet corresponding
    		to the Hebrew and Sanscrit letters.
    	9)name of the sephirah that characterizes the kabbalistic signif
    		of the card.
    
    	whew! a little text book! has anyone else heard of this deck?
    
    one more thing i found out when i got home...
    		the back of the cards all have OPOTOIM on them and a
    note in the flimsey little book that comes with it states.
                                                             
    ( OPOTOIM spells "mio topo" backward,  "my mouse" in Italian. )
    
    fey mouse
    
    	"

    Re: .132
    
    As a comment on 'Enoil Gavat', I recall from a recent Tarot class that
    the deck was designed by the same person who did the 'Taviglione' deck.
    I guess he had so much fun doing the first deck, that he just couldn't
    contain himself!  :-) 

    The Taviglione deck has *very* detailed artwork in it and sounds quite
    similar to the 'Enoil' deck in the ammount and kinds of information
    presented on the cards.    

    All of you Evelene Woods backword spead readers have probably noticed
    by now from whence the name 'Enoil Gavat' hath sprung.  ;-) ;-)

    Kak

    Greetings, writers to TAROT!!!
    
       I am a new employee at DEC, and I just discovered this subject
    today. I have just read all of the entries in TAROT, and I am impressed
    by the knowledge and diversity of experience that are reflected
    here. This is the first place where I have discovered a relatively
    large group of people with an understanding of one of my areas of
    interest. I find this very gratifying!
    
       After reading the entries in this subject, I feel that I should
    share some of my own experiences and perceptions. This is unusual
    for me; my experience has taught me that even discussing a mundane
    subject like the Tarot can get you into trouble if you are not careful.
    I feel a degree of safety here, however. Here goes:
    
                             HISTORY
    
      I started reading the Tarot in 1975. I used some obscure Tarot
    Deck and my spread was a variation of the Keltic Cross. My reference
    material was the books by Eden Grey ("Mastering the Tarot", etc.)
    which I read from during readings. In the summer of 1975, I acquired
    a Waite - Rider deck, which I use to this day. I began by reading
    myself until I could comprehend the spread, then I began to read
    others.
    
       In 1975, I thought of my Tarot readings as a neat gimmick that
    I could use to meet new people (especially pretty girls). By 1976
    I considered them to be scientific experiments. By 1978, I considered
    my readings to be a talent that carried a great responsibility.
    In the space of three years, Tarot changed from a curious game into
    a powerful tool that can be used to help others and develop one's
    own psychic ability. Then I learned certain Tarot - based meditation
    techniques!
    
                              SOME COMMENTS
    
       There seem to be a number of experienced readers who write to
    this notes file. It is a pleasure to hear from all of you. I have
    been enriched by some of the ideas that I have seen (like the "blank
    card" idea. I never thought of that!) and some of the experiences
    you have shared. I would be happy to share my ideas and experiences
    with you; I have recorded a number of experiences with the Tarot,
    developed some proven and provable theories about how it works,
    and I have evolved a number of techniques for using the Tarot that
    will make readings more effective and accurate and even help develop
    certain abilities within Tarot users. I do not know what the degree
    of interest in my ideas and experiences would be; please let me
    know.
    
    Best wishes to all.
                                                  -Robert Brown III
     

    
    re:136
    
    welcome Robert!
    	YOUR intrest and ideas is what makes this conf. work!
    
    	please babble-on with an open mind to others and remember that
    many others are watching. (dont say things that might be confidential
    to you or others)
    
    fey mouse 

    
    
    Hello Robert,
    
    I would also be interested in hearing your ideas regarding the
    Tarot.  As you mentioned in your note, it's not often that we
    find a place where we can share our ideas and thoughts on these
    subjects.  The fact that we can do that in DEJAVU is what makes
    is so special.
    
    Carole
    

RE: .136
    
    Greetings to you Robert.  We would be interested in hearing whatever
    you have to say about the Tarot -- that's what this conference is
    about.
    
    I in particular would be interested in your "proven and provable
    theories about how it works".  If you would like I can critique
    both your theories and your proof methods for you (I warn you, though,
    I have very tough standards -- and rigorous scientific proof in these
    areas is much tougher to manage than most people would suppose).
    Let me know.
    
    					Topher

       There seems to be interest in what I have to say (I warn you
    now: I can say a LOT), so here goes:
    
       As I stated in my history (entry 3.136), I started out reading
    Tarot as a sort of fun way  to meet people and get attention. Within
    three years, I not only believed in the effectiveness of Tarot, but
    I even treat it with a degree of reverence. Curiously, my reverence
    for the Tarot may actually contribute to my ability to use it. It
    is a variation of the old belief factor usually associated with most
    "occult" activities. My reverence acts as a kind of "positive
    reinforcement" which allows me to more easily get in touch with
    the real "power" behind the Tarot. Some thoughts about this "power"
    are given below.
    
       All who have dealings with the Tarot probably realize that the
    cards themselves have no real power. The abilities associated with
    the Tarot actually come from within the reader. The Tarot is a tool
    which invokes the psychic ability of the person reading them, and
    within a specific framework (the spread, the specific meanings of
    the cards, etc.) utilizes these abilities in order to answer questions,
    gain insights into problems, and (sometimes) predict what will happen.
    
       Unfortunatly, the "explanation" of the last paragraph is too
    pat and obvious to really describe what makes the Tarot work. I
    realized this aspect of the Tarot in 1976, when I met a person who
    I read using a different Tarot deck and a different spread. My logic
    was as follows: if my cards had any real power in themselves, then
    this person's deck should not have worked for me. But it did --
    and I used a spread that was alien to me (this person had made it
    up himself). Obviously, the cards were somehow invoking parts of
    myself that I did not have normal access to. But how was this being
    done? What mechanism was being used? Was the "power" invoked by
    the Tarot specific to the Tarot, or could it be invoked by any tool?
    What are the limits of this access?
    
       Part of my theory about what makes the Tarot work can be derived
    from the "split brain" theory that scientists are currently exploring.
    Many readers are currently aware of the theory that each of the
    hemispheres of the brain performs a different function. The left
    brain is logical, analytical, and deals in words and straight lines.
    The right brain is wholistic, INTUITIVE, and deals in images. There
    are some people who believe that the right brain handles our psychic
    facilities. It has been proven that almost from birth, we are trained
    to use the facilities of the left brain and to repress the facilities
    of the right. It is only the fact that many of us have formed channels
    into our right brains that have allowed human civilization to get
    where it is today. These channels, for the most part, are poor because
    we have been taught that the facilities of the left brain are more
    important.
    
       What has this to do with Tarot? Consider the nature of the cards.
    They are, essentially, pictures/symbols which have meanings (expressed
    in words!) attached to them. The pictures speak to the right brain.
    The words are for the left. During a Tarot reading, the rational,
    analytical side of us becomes occupied with the words/concepts
    associated with each card. It can analyze each card by its picture
    and position within the spread. But the right brain also comes into
    play, because the pictures have an effect on the subconscious. Consider
    the fact that certain people have an affinity to certain decks and
    spreads. Consider, for example, the Thoth deck -- which some writers
    to this notesfile like and others dislike. Why the dislike? There
    is no logical reason for it. Some people avoid the Thoth deck (I
    certainly do) because of an emotional/intuitive reaction to it.
    Others go with it for equally emotional/intuitive reasons. Their
    reactions come from the right brain, which can relate to the
    picture/symbols of certain decks better than others. And while the
    left brain is busy analyzing the assigned meanings and positions
    of the cards, the right brain is seeing patterns, developing its
    own meanings, and calling upon capabilities that it doesn't get
    a chance to use during our "normal" daily lives. What I am saying
    is that a reader uses the Tarot to bypass the left brain which is
    used to having its own way, and "access" the psychic abilities of
    the right brain. The left brain is "kept busy" by the structure
    of the reading (represented by the sequence of shuffling and cutting
    the cards, selecting them, and placing them in a spread), while
    the pictures/symbols of the cards stimulate the right brain.
    
       What I said in the previous paragraph is somewhat simplistic.
    Unfortunatly, this entry is longer than I anticipated. I'll stop
    here. In my next entry I shall speak more about how others can test
    this theory for themselves.
    
                                                    -Robert Brown III
    
    

       In my previous entry, I gave a (very simplified) description
    of one of the mechanisms by which the Tarot works. This entry contains
    more thoughts on the subject.
    
       The left brain thinks in sequences. The right brain thinks in
    clusters. The left brain compartmentalizes. The right brain associates.
    
       During a Tarot reading, the censor that resides in the left brain
    is redirected. Instead of analyzing and rejecting the impressions
    received from the right brain, it becomes more occupied with properly
    expressing what it receives. This mechanism is not perfect, because
    our subconscious is not perfect. sometimes, what we receive is blurred
    by our own emotions and judgement. To this day, my conscious mind
    rejects some information received from my subconscious during a
    reading. Sometimes I discover later that I was wrong to reject
    it, sometimes I discover I was right. Most times I never know. The
    psychic part of us resides in the subconscious, and we reach it
    through the subconscious, but to get to our consciousness psychic
    impressions pass a "gauntlet" of our own fears, desires, and opinions.
    Consequently, while the left brain depends on the right brain to
    make a Tarot reading work, the right brain depends on the left brain
    to give it direction and keep the channel to our psychic facilities
    open. In other words, proper use of the Tarot for readings not only
    stimulates the right brain, but it also helps the two hemispheres
    work together.
    
       One can demonstrate the operation of the right brain by performing
    an exercise that I discovered in a book called "The Art of Natural
    Writing" (Sorry, I forgot the author. I'll give her name in another
    entry if anyone wishes). This exercise is called "clustering". What
    you do is pick some subject to write about (like fear, cars, your
    mother -- anything) and write that subject on a blank piece of paper.
    Circle it. Relax. Then, write down whatever you associate with that
    subject, circling each thing and joining it to the subject it is
    associated with. For example: suppose you pick the subject "red".
    From "red" you might get "blood". From "blood" you can get "life",
    "passion", and "flushed face" before you run out of meanings. Write
    out these things, circling them all, and join them to the word that
    invoked them. "Life", "passion", and "flushed face" would be joined
    with "blood". "Blood" would be joined with "red". Going back to
    "red", you might get "cars", "war", and "pain". Circle these words
    and join them (with a line) to "red". Note that the associations
    used in this example are from an actual "clustering" which I did
    for this entry. If you choose "red" as a subject, you may get different
    associations.
    
       Do not edit the associations you get. They should all be put
    on paper. It also doesn't matter what shape your cluster is; that
    should evolve while you are clustering.
    
       In the book I referenced, clustering is a technique for accessing
    the creative power of the right brain for writing purposes. What
    usually happens is that after clustering for a while, something
    "clicks" in your head and you find that you can write about the
    subject (in my example, "red") that you are clustering around. I've
    used this technique whenever I experienced "writer's block". It
    works even for people who don't think they are creative or who think
    they can't write! Try it; as long as you keep an open mind and you
    don't pass judgement on what you are clustering, then your left
    brain becomes receptive and the technique will work.
    
       Now try a similar technique with a Tarot card. Choose a card
    by any means you desire, then write the name of the card on paper
    and cluster it. What you should find is that the symbolic meanings
    of the card that you have in your subconscious mind are much richer,
    far reaching, and deep than the meanings your conscious mind has.
    People who have been reading cards for a while may find that some
    of the meanings they have cannot be placed into words. Even beginners
    should find associations that they never thought they had before!
    This should demonstrate to people that the symbols in the cards are
    affecting them in ways they weren't consciously aware of before.
    
       That's it for now. These preliminary thoughts should give people
    something to think about, test, and critisize. I am very interested
    in your opinions of what I have written here and/or your experiences
    using the techniques I've described. Good luck. Hope to hear from
    you!
                                                -Robert Brown III
    

I've been dabbling at Tarot for a while but I think
I'm not approaching it correctly. (I think I'm probably being
too logical about it - but that's my way somehow).

Anyway, a question.

I've been trying to learn the meanings of the cards as I go
along and I find it very confusing that the meanings of reversed
cards are not the 'reverse' of meanings of the right-way-up cards.

Why aren't they more consistent?

I've been trying to learn the meanings because consulting the book
is very disruptive. Should I rather just be trying to intuit the
meanings?

John D.

    What I usually tell people who want to learn the Tarot is --
    
    For each card:
    
    	1. Try to intuit/remember/feel the right-side-up meaning.
    
    	2. Try to intuit/remember/feel the wrong-side-up meaning.
    
    	3. Look up the right-side-up meaning and think about the
    	   differences from 1.
    
    	4. Look up the wrong-side-up meaning and think about the
    	   differences from 2 and the relations to 3.
    
    When you have done this for all the cards in the spread, go
    back and look at each card again, but now consider it in relation
    to the other cards.  The translation of each card into English
    (or whatever) is highly dependent on its relations to other cards
    around it.  This is true for the right-side-up meaning and even
    more (much more) for the wrong-side-up meaning.  The books can
    only give you a general context-independent meaning for the cards.
    What you as a beginner have to learn is not only the fixed meaning
    of each card but how to interpret it in context.  Takes practice,
    and lots of it.
    
    Here is an analogy to the card "reversal"/meaning reversal which
    I, in my rather math-oriented way, like to think about.  Imagine
    that you were to somehow plot the meaning of every card in a
    3-D graph with three axes.  All the right-side-up meanings are in
    the (+,+,+) octant.  Depending on the context, the reversal could
    be around any of the three axes or any combination of them, and
    occasionally it just provides a negative emphasis to the right-side-up
    meaning.  So for any "single" right-side-up meaning there are 8
    wrong-side-up meanings.  Except of course, there isn't a single
    point but a fuzzy region, and there are not three axes but many,
    not all of which are really perpendicular.
    
    So, practice, take it slow, and write up a summary of the card
    meanings which makes sense to you, as you come to get a feel for
    how the cards work for you.
    
    						Topher
    

    also, some decks are not meant to be read reversed ( a friend of
    mine has the Crowley deck and says the cards should always be right
    side up...not sure why though).
    
    Also, it helps to get a book that guides you through your own
    particular type of tarot deck, and describes the interpretations as
    they relate to the pictures on the cards (lots of help when you see
    them and then remember what they mean). 
    
    -Jody
    

Re: 143 - Topher -< No simple answer. >-

         Thanks for the un-simple answer - not that I expected a
         simple answer. The idea of placing the meanings in 3-D
         space quite appeals to me - I'll give that a serious
         try. 

         Now, some more questions (I've got a lot :-)). 

         The meanings of the cards (minor arcana) presumably
         relate, in part to the number of things (swords, cups
         etc) shown. But the five of swords doesn't appear to be
         related to the five of cups - at least in my books. Does
         anyone have an analysis of what the different numbers
         suggest in Tarot? (I seem to have descriptions of what
         each suit suggests). 

         It would help my memory if the intersection of 'cupness'
         and 'fiveness' actually produced a card with meanings at
         least biased towards the 'five of cups' 

         (I know, I know I'm trying to rationally understand
         something irrational). 
    
         My memory does not find it easy remembering the meanings
         - except when the symbolism is obvious. For example, the
         nine of swords shows a blindfolded figure in a boat in
         cloudy rainy weather with nine down-pointing swords.
         This card has a definitely negative interpretation -
         it's all doom and gloom. But what have the nine swords
         got to do with anything? And why down-pointing?

         Perhaps we could have a separate topic where people
         could enter their favourite, or most memorable card
         interpretations - along with an account of the symbolism
         used? 

         That'll do for now. More later. And please excuse me if
         I don't reply in sequence because I normally access this
         conference in batch, overnight (I'm in Munich). 

Have a good one. John.

    re -.1:
    
    You might want to get _Tarot for Yourself_  by Mary Greer, mentioned
    previously (many replies back).  The author speaks of the many 
    interrelationships between tarot, numerology, astrology, psychology,
    etc.  She also suggests exercises in visualization and affirmation
    for "tuning in" (my words) to the cards.
    
    	bruce

    There are also people who simply don't interperet the card as
    "reversed" - the meaning of the card is the same, upright or not.
    
    Dawn
    

Here's another thing I've been wondering about.

Could I (*should* I) try and create my own deck?
I currently use 'The Aquarian Tarot', it appealed to me
strongly when I looked at it (but maybe just because
it's so beautifully painted). But it occurred to me
that creating my own deck would forge a very strong link
between it and me.

All this of course brings me back to questions of meaning
again. Is there a 'base' meaning for each card. Should I
use that as a starting point - or completely invent my own?

It also brings me up against problems of belief about how
Tarot works (if indeed it does work) - but that's another
reply.

John D.

    Re .148 (John D):
    
    The best Tarot deck is the deck that works best.  Not a conundrum,
    but consider: how many people who use Tarot cards even _think_ of
    asking thast question.
    
    Yes, you could create your own deck.
    
    If it makes it easier to use, you should.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    Re .148
    
    Hi John,
    
    My initial thoughts would be that it might be better to 'master'
    ( as if anyone ever does  (8^)  ) at least one deck and maybe study
    several others in depth before moving on to design your own. There
    again, you might do better for your personal use to start afresh.
    
    What you might lose out on, however, would be the vast knowledge
    that is represented within the better decks. The Waite deck, one
    of the most popular, uses a wealth of both blatant and subtle symbology
    drawn from a number of different sources. I can recommend the book
    that accompanies this deck ( 'The Pictorial Key to the Tarot' by its
    originator A.E. Waite ) as an insight into the design of Tarot cards.
    
    But, as Steve says, go for whatever *you* feel best with,
    
    Dave.

re: .145

>         The meanings of the cards (minor arcana) presumably
>         relate, in part to the number of things (swords, cups
>         etc) shown. But the five of swords doesn't appear to be
>         related to the five of cups - at least in my books. Does
>         anyone have an analysis of what the different numbers
>         suggest in Tarot? (I seem to have descriptions of what
>         each suit suggests). 

I have the following generic meanings associated with numbers for
the minor arcana cards (not every card fits, needless to say):
	 1 = origin, source, initiative, beginning, an ideal
	 2 = balance, equilibrium, stable bonds/relations, adaptation
	 3 = outward manifestations, transience, worldly appearances
	 4 = integration, reassessment, recuperation, consolidation
	 5 = conflict, loss, longing, strife
	 6 = discovery, travel, turning from the old to the new
	 7 = hardship, obstruction, delays, poorly defined goals
	 8 = sublimation, necessary labors, movement toward goals
	 9 = fullness, stasis, excess, security
	10 = goals and their outcome relating to home/family/community
	Page/Knight = a member of either sex atypical in some fashion
		(e.g., in terms of age: child, adolescent, elderly, etc.)
	Queen = a woman
	King = a man

BTW, constructing your own Tarot may not end up giving you a viable deck
to use, but the mental exercise involved should be very helpful anyway!

								paul

    
    
    Re: last few replies....
    
    Here's an extract from the book "Psychic Tarot" by Craig Junjulas
    on the Minor Arcana (without permission)....
    
    The Suit of Rods - represents the spiritual plane of the earth and
    the application of spiritual laws to daily life.  The suit also
    represents our desire to attain new heights in our spiritual
    development and understanding.  It reaches us about our relationship
    to cosmic energies by illustrating the need for us to accept our
    roots in nature and our continuous branching upward and outward
    to absorb the life giving energy of the sun.  The message contained
    with this suit is that the alignment of our life direction with
    spiritual principles provides for successful enterprises, greatness,
    honor and acclaim.
    
    The Suit of Swords - represents the mental plane of the earth and
    our thought processes.  It describes how we handle difficulties
    in our spiritual evolution, and the many forms of incorrect thinking
    that seem to weaken and enslave the human being.  Many of the figures
    in this suit have downcast, hidden or covered eyes, which attest
    to their reluctance to allow others to see their mental confusion
    or pain, or their inability to see their own problems clearly. 
    Activity, hostility, strife, animosity, and misfortune are the essence
    of the teaching methods conveyed by the swords.  They relate to
    analytical thinking, politics, warfare, and understanding creative
    ideas and taking action to effect a change.
    
    The Suit of Cups - illustrates the emotional plane and our internal
    reactions to life situations.  It shows us how to perceive and accept
    the human emotions as an internal system of reactions and signals
    that teach us how to better interact with each other and our
    environment.  It reminds us of the spark of divinity in each human
    heart, and of the gift of human feelings as a source of intimate
    communication.  It also teaches us about the need to spend time
    and effort cleaning and polishing the human vessel that contains
    the soul.
    
    The Suit of Pentacles - stands for the physical plane and our material
    concerns.  It describes the myriad conditions of human survival
    and accomplishment on the physical level and teaches us how to perceive
    everyday experiences in relation to the total view of humanistic
    development.  The pentacles relate to phuysical laws, measurable
    phenomena, and the tangible things in our lives.  They also symbolize
    the physical manifestation of creative ideas and the rewards that
    follow the correct application of these ideas in everyday life.
    
    
    
    Carole

    HELLO,
    	MY NAME IS DUDE AND I CAN READ TAROT.GIVEN YOUR PROBABLE STATE OF
    MIND I WOULD,AS MY OPINION,SAY THAT WHAT SHE PREDICTED HAD A LOT
    TO DO WITH WHAT BECAME A REALITY TO YOU.YOU MAY HAVE BEEN INFLUENCED
    BY HER PREDICTION BUT THE OVERALL PICTURE WAS SEEN BY HER.THE THING
    WITH TAROT IS IF YOU HAVE ANY "GIFTING" WHATSOEVER THEN YOU WILL 
    "SEE" THINGS THAT OTHERS MAY MISS,OR NOT UNDERSTAND.

      A few unrequested, and perhaps unwanted comments from the
      third row...seventh seat...
      
      
      ...Learning to "read" Tarot should be done at the hands of
      a Master.  Interpretation is a subtle thing, and should be
      nurtured and molded not "plopped" down free-form.  There
      are *Idiot Savants* in all corners of the occult, but they
      are truely rare...more just plain *idiots* I fear.  There
      was a Medeval Madrigal...
      
      		The Silver Swan who living had no note,
      		When death approached unlocked her throat.
      		Leaning her breast against the reedy shore,
      		Thus sang her first, and last, and sang..
      			and sang no more.
      		Farewell all joys, oh Death! Come close mine eyes!
      		More geese than swans now live!
      		More fools, more fools than wise.    
      
      ...Decks (whichever/whatever/whoever) should be *given* not
      *bought*.  Typically a Master will bestow *his* favorite
      on an Apprentice, but he/she may choose to give a deck more
      indicative of the personality of the Apprentice.  This tradition
      stems from pre-christian times and represents #1) the passing
      of a boundary between non-adept and adept and #2) the understood
      difference between *power taken* and *power given*.  Power
      taken, as in buying your own deck, carries with it the inference
      of domination and self-determination (wonderful attributes
      for a self-actuating human...not so wonderful for a Tarot
      Card reader in a traditional sense who should be the "repository
      and reflection" of his subjects innermost desires).  Power
      given, on the other hand infers subjugation to both the *giver*
      (A Master) and the future *subject*s.  The crux of this is
      *humility*; a required ingrediant in the traditional setting.
      
      ..."Blind" readings can be done.  Indeed they were the norm
      several centuries ago when the world was a more gullable
      place and everyday people as a matter of course believed
      in all manner of things that go *bump* in the night.  During
      these times, it was necessary to Blind Read to keep the cards
      *clean*...too much psychic energy floating about.  Today,
      just the opposite is usually true, and handling the cards
      helps to make contact with the subject through the layers
      of industrial sludge that dull the normal person's perception
      of extra-normal existance.  However, any really adept reader
      can Blind Read.  Truely talented readers can do so with only
      some object of the subjects to contemplate or handle...less
      adept readers require the physical presence of the subject,
      but do not let the subject handle or cut the cards.  If psychic
      energy is *very* high, the reader may shuffle the cards,
      but let the subject cut them.
      
      	Blind Readings are *required* if:
      		
      		#1) The subject is another Reader
      		#2) The subject is very high in psychic energy
      		    and/or personality traits
      		#3) The subject is in physical or emotional
      		    extremis 
      
      ...One should never *read* ones own cards.  (I said *read*
      not *meditate*) Two traditional reasons:  #1) It was seen
      as being a sign of weakness for an adept to search the cards
      for quidance rather than introspection. #2) Predicting your
      own future seems to deny the possibility of free choice much
      more so than suggesting futures to a subject.  The subject
      has at least two (and maybe more depending on the layout
      you use) opportunities to influence the course of events
      laid out by a Tarot reading.  If you read yourself, you beg
      the question, so to speak...a *no no* in the tradition. 
      Adepts are supposed to be humble practitioners of a talent
      that they service human kind with...not supplicants.
                   
      	Using the Tarot to meditate with is a totally different
      matter.  And one highly recommended and required by most
      Traditions.  Free Form is the most common method for an
      experienced reader...flipping the cards up one after the
      other while forming a general impression of the nature of
      the cards revealed.  Done with the Major Arcana, it is then
      followed by a regular card layout while concentrating on
      the topic dsiplayed by the Free Form.  Conclusions are not
      drawn...the purpose is to pose questions for future thought.
      
      ...Which leads me to...You should not have your Tarot read
      for divinatory purposes any more often than every three to
      four months.  Divination is supposed to serve the purpose
      of helping one order and conceptualise a meaning for one's
      life.  It is also used to help one adjust actions and reactions
      to hopefully effect future events.  *If* you buy into these
      reasons for divining with Tarot it is fairly obvious that
      the more frequently you *jiggle* the controls the more bumpy
      the ride.  I once had a person (ever so much older and wiser
      than me...) use the analogy of a sailing vessel...the
      inexperienced sway the rudder back and forth in an effort
      to stay on course; providing a ride that cuts across the
      waves and jumps from swell to trough...the experienced sailor
      allows his vessel to choose her own course leaving adjustments
      to fate and an occaisional correction of the tack; it provides
      a ride that uses the sea instead of fighting it and allows
      the sailor to enjoy sunrise and sunset and the wonders of
      the world around him.
      
      ...Back to meditation for a moment.  If you read other people's
      cards (for fun or profit), you should have separate decks
      for divination and meditation.  The psychic overtones of
      the deck that you may let all sorts of people handle are
      hard to overcome when you go to meditate.  If you are a *strong*
      reader, the personal stamp you will put on the cards you
      meditate with from constant handling will likewise make reading
      any but the most forceful subjects a muddy operation at best.
      
      	You will also find that decks (especially the ones you
      divine with) will indeed wear out.  They will experience
      psychic overload and will most probably produce garbage
      readings.  As you use Tarot more and more, you can *feel*
      this coming on an replace or rejuvenate the deck.  Any deck
      that gets this way should be (are ready? this is one of those
      ancient prescription jobs...)
      
      		#1) Burned if you are a fire sign
      		#2) Drowned (weighted) if you are a water sign
      		#3) Buried if you are earth
      		#4) Cast to winds (never figured out how
      		    to do that gracefully) if you are air
      
      	Rejuvenating a deck is a relatively simple procedure, but
      hardly worth the effort. 
      
      (Have you asked the question yet
      about how do you find people to *give* you all these replacement
      Tarot decks???  That's what the Apprentice System was all
      about folks!!!  Current practice states that the *first*
      deck should be *given*.  The real issue here is try not to
      be the person exchanging *money* for the deck)
      
      	Ahem...yes...rejuvenation.  You rejuvenate decks by wrapping
      them in silk (actually you should always wrap your deck in
      silk as a matter of course...silk is a non-conducting material
      for psychic energy...an insulator) for ten days (no, I don't
      know why ten...) and then shuffle them repeatedly until your
      hands tire. (A *long* time)  Then back in the silk they go
      for ten more days.  Then try them.  You can repeat this *once*
      if they are still not clean...after that you just tired hands
      and no cleaner cards.
      
      ...When using the whole deck, if 6 or more Major Arcana are
      revealed, or if dealt significator, plus covering and crossing
      are all Majors, then you should redeal the reading using
      only the Major Arcana.  Either of these situations proclaims
      #1) an immediacy to the predicted occurance 1-3 months only,
      or #2) an immense impact of the occurance on the life of
      the subject, or #3) (the least likely) the position of the
      subject as a psychic force or great power.  Any of these
      situations demand the detail and perceptions of the Major
      Arcana to produce an accurate reading.
      
      	A Note...if you are not very experienced and you really
      feel you are being asked to read Tarot by a person of imposing
      psychic presence...refuse the reading.  Do I sound a bit
      melodramatic?  Refuse the reading.
      
      ...Covering and Crossing are always "regardant" (upright). 
      Selected significators are always "regardant".  Dealt
      significators are read as placed.  I do not use other layouts
      enough to comment on others.
      
      ...Significators can be either selected (by physical attributes,
      personality, or zodiacal sign) or dealt (top card after cut
      by subject or pulled out of a deck by subject if you are
      doing a blind read).  Beginners usually do much better selecting
      a significator but the method is restraining in that it prevents
      further interpretation of the significator.  For the more
      experienced dealing a significator allows the Tarot to insert
      interpretation of current mind set and emotional health to
      the subject of the reading at the *onset* of a layout.
      
      	A Note...selecting a significator by zodiacal sign can
      be a misleading endeavor.  You should be fairly certain that
      the subject really represents his/her natal sign rather than
      his/her rising sign...if the nature of the reading appears
      to be about how others see the subject or react to the
      subject...you want the *rising* sign.  If the nature of the
      reading is introspective, you want natal.  Much too complicated
      for me...I stay away from Astrological significators. 
      
      ...If you are serious; you get paid...If you are playing
      around; you are free.  Buyer Beware!  A very old note in
      here said: "you get what you pay for", how very true!  The
      *tradition* (I promise never to use the word again for at
      least three months...) refers to common sense...If the Tarot
      reader had to procure his/her living in addition to reading
      Tarot, he/she was prey to bribery, political influence, threat,
      and jail.  (Even jail sometimes when not...but that came
      later after christianity got a bit insecure and started killing
      the pagans...) If however, the Tarot reader was supported
      by this trade...it behooved him/her to offer a service that
      was fair, impartial, *and* correct.  If you are good; you
      get to charge a lot...If you are so-so you get to charge
      a little.  If you are learning...your Master gets paid...a
      little.
      
      ...Enough, I go back to perusing DEJAVU in silence.  I will
      validate myself for those who are interested:
      
      		I get paid.
      		I started when I was seven.
      		I had a female Master.
      		I am sometimes *very* good, most times *good*.
      		
      An anecdote that will perhaps tell you more than I can think
      to say...
      
      I was reading cards for a benefit (oh yeah, did I forget
      to mention "public service"...) and a young (32ish) came
      in to have her cards read.  I was using an old deck (because
      I knew I would be seeing lots of people in a short time span)
      and I was shuffling the cards to keep them as clean as possible.
      I let each subject cut, but that was all.  She was well dressed,
      did not smoke, employed, mother of one with a loving and
      close relationship with her husband.  I almost always deal
      a significator.  Significator, Covering and Crossing and
      I called for my apprentice. (Here is another reason for having
      one...) and signed that I wanted to see someone close to
      or at least with the subject immediately following the reading.
      
      Cards dealt were: Queen Cups, Tower, Ten swords. These cards
      were followed by 5 other Major Arcana including the Chariot
      and the Magician.  I did *not* redeal.
      
      I finished the reading in a vanilla sort of way and told
      the person my apprentice escorted in (turned out to be a
      life-long female friend thank God) that I had refused the
      reading (not interpretting correctly is an admissable refusal
      under some circumstances) and why.  Her husband would be
      dead within three months.
                                                                 
      About two months later I received (via the benefit coordinator
      since neither the subject nor her friend knew me) a note
      from the friend.  It explained that she had elected *not*
      to tell her friend about the true meaning of my reading but
      had made herself very *present* in her friend's life over
      the past two months.  Five weeks after the reading her friend's
      husband was diagnosed with stomach cancer. Three weeks later
      they buried him.
      
      I really do *not* see the Tarot as a sometime thing, or a
      toy.  It can be frighteningly serious.  It infers a
      *responsibility* if you choose to use it and a *burden*.
      That is why my references to *traditional*.  Tarot, as many
      other forms of occult divination and worship is tremendously
      ritualistic... there is almost without exception a *very*
      good reason for the ritual historically associated with any
      art; it protects the young and the old from misuse.  
      
      I am preaching...I apologise.  But she was very young
      and so was he; and *I*, I *knew*...*knowing* makes one very 
      old very quickly.

     I never even knew her name. 

     Mel
                      

    Where have all the Tarot Noters got to ?  No-one has written since
    June !       
                 
    I have been reading my way through all the Tarot notes over the
    last few months but have only just got up the confidence to contribute
    myself.      
                 
    I work in the London region, and have been dabbling with Tarot for
    some years.  I think the first pack I ever saw was a set of Italian
    playing cards with the minor arcana suits.  I have been collecting
    packs since then, and the collection includes a Crowley Thoth pack
    (which I would never use for readings, but find very beautiful),
    the Aquarian tarot, and a brightly coloured derivative of the
    Ryder-Waite pack.  It is the last one I use for readings.
                 
    This was not given to me as a present - I was just attracted to
    it in a shop, and felt compelled to buy it.
                 
    When I first started to use Tarot (I was at University by this time)
    I would do readings for other people - not very fluidly as I would
    have to keep looking up the meanings of the cards all the time.
    The most interesting reading I did was for twin boys - one at a
    time.  Although they were identical twins, the readings were completely
    different - one of them was carefree and seemed to have his life
    mapped out quite clearly.  The other seemed to have all SORTS of
    problems, and we had to do a second reading (having started with
    the Celtic Cross) to investigate further.
                 
    A while later, ignoring all the warnings I'd read, I did a wish
    spread reading for myself, concerning a man I was interested in.
    Not only did the 9 of Cups turn up, it turned up in the "outcome
    of the wish" position.  Naturally I was thrilled to little mint
    balls about this.  I should have known better - three days later
    the whole situation had fallen apart, and I had apparently got in
    the way of him starting a relationship with someone else.  I was
    very distressed, and vowed never to read my own cards again.  In
    fact I don't think I went near them for ages (or him for that matter!)
                                                                          
    The funny thing was - (a) he had been interested in me, and a year    
    later we started going out together, and found out just how much      
    stirring the other girl had done. (b) He had had his cards read       
    for him about the same time I read my own, asking about a dark haired 
    woman, and the cards told him he would go out with a blonde.  I       
    have fair hair !                                                      
                                                                          
    So the cards were right, it's just that I shouldn't have asked them   
    the question, because they were misleading.                           
                                                                          
    Nowadays (some 8/9 years later), I am trying to learn more about      
    the cards, and am not prepared to do readings for anyone until I      
    feel really comfortable about interpretations.  So I do sample readings
    for myself, and try not to read too much into things, being aware     
    just how easy it is to be misled.                                     
                                                                          
    I firmly believe that they are something to be taken very seriously,  
    and I also believe the ability to read them is a gift - but one       
    that needs nurturing.                                                 
                                                                          
    I hope that the Tarot Noters out there will respond to this and       
    that this conference has not fallen by the wayside just yet....       
                                                                          
                                                                          
    Regards -                                                             
                                                                          
    Deja Stanford                                                         
                                                                          
                                                                          

    
    RE: .156
    
    	OK, I give,
    
    	Whats your reason for not using the Thoth pack?  I just want to
    see if there are any new reasons out there. ;-)
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
     Craig 

    
    Hi Deja - what a great name!  If you wouldn't mind sharing the why's
    and wherefore's behind how you ended up with it, I'd love to hear
    the story.
    
    Cindy Lou (Who, from Whoville)

    Re: .157
         
    I find that there's something rather sinister about the Thoth pack
    despite the beautiful art-work.
         
    I gave a pack of Thoth cards to a really *black* Scorpio friend
    of mine for a birthday present (No disrespect to Scorpios - I'm
    one myself, but there's a particular type of Scorpio who's drawn
    to the really black side of things..... or so I believe 8^) !)
    Anyway, he used them for readings, and scared the living daylights
    out of a very vulnerable friend of ours.  She came to me incredibly
    distressed, although she wouldn't say what had been in the readings,
    only that there had been several of them and they were all really
    dreadful.  So I read her cards for her using my Ryder-Waite clone
    cards and the outcome was much more optimistic.               
                                                                  
    I think I've also read rather too much about Crowley to risk trusting
    his cards.  I'm a bit of a coward really - I'll always favour peace
    of mind over adventure !                                      
                                                                  
    Re: .158                                                      
                                                                  
    My parents actually called me Deborah Jane, but it got condensed
    into Deja when I was a tot !  When I went to school I ended up being
    called Debbi, which I never really liked, and Deborah sounds like
    a reprimand.  Once I started work at DEC, out Unit Secretary was
    called Debbie, so I took the opportunity to go back to being called
    Deja.                                                         
                                                                  
                                                                  

    
    RE: .159 
    
    	Deja,
    Do you think it is the card themselves that are "sinister" or...
       
    	is it the symbolism used in the pictures that enter the subconcious
    	and create a sinister atmosphere?
    or
    	does one of the creators of the deck (crowley) subconciously
    	effect us? (the stories ect)
    or
    	are we more likely to unleash our own sinister self when using
    	these cards knowing that we can blame the cards?
    or
    	none of the above?
    
    sincerly 
     (Sag. with Scorpio rising) ;-)
                               
    Craig

    
    Personally, I think that if you are going to use the Thoth deck,
    use it cautionously, have it cleansed/blessed, and make sure if
    you do a reading to preface the reading with something to the affect
    that only Good and God may come through these cards.  You have to
    keep in mind where Aleister Crowley is coming from.  I think he
    was a very evil man.  He devised the Thoth deck, and I feel that
    the symbology he used and the thought-forms associated with the
    cards are not of "Good and God" or for the "Highest and the Best".
    
    Linda
    

    RE: .161
    	How would cleansing/blessing the deck remove the symbology?
    
    	isn't the fact that you believe Crowley evil, and associate
    	him with the deck, going to cause more of an impact on a reading
    	than anything else? 
    
    	sincerly interested,
    	  Craig

    Re .162    
    
    Cleansing etc. won't remove the symbology but it will go a long way to
    purging or repelling any "bad" spirits that might be attracted via the
    symbology...it'll also make you feel better about using them which is
    important. 
    
    
    Re .-a few...
    
    As has been stated elsewhere in this conference, anyone who gives an
    out and out negative reading is grossly irresponsible. People who read
    have a responsibility to *assist* those they read for, and dwelling on
    the negative doesn't help anyone. Further, if someone cannot control
    the degrees of negativity that may be generated by a deck like THOTH,
    they should recognise their limitations and work up on something
    gentler...
    
    Just an opinion, Dave. 

    
    Re .163
    
    	Dave,
    		I agree 99% with what you said. My questioning in the
    last few was an attempt to get others ideas on how others believe
    the cards work.
    		Now the 1% ;-). 
    > "recognize their limitations and work up on something gentler."
    
    	I will let the "up" pass for now cause my main difficulty is
    with the word "limitations".
    	Just cause someone does not feel safe with the Thoth deck
    does it mean they are in any way limited?
    	I have given readings for people with the Thoth and have had
    them say it was the best reading they have ever had. Does this mean
    I am less limited/more advanced than others? (thats B.S.)
    	It is interesting to note that I am unable to use the Rider-Waite
    deck for any serious work. If I get into a mellow mood I can use
    the Sacred Rose Deck (which I like very much) but no matter what
    I do I cant take maintain the attention on the person I am reading
    for when I use the R_W deck.  any ideas why? I think I know but
    would be interested in others ideas. 
    	
    	How-bout instead of "limitations" you put sensitivities? and
    suggest people work on an deck more suitable to them?
    
    sincerly
    
    Craig

    Craig,
    
    You're right, "limitations" was the wrong word ( come on 99% wasn't
    bad !  (8^)  ) ; my apologies if I have caused offence or implied
    that people without an affinity for the THOTH deck are in any way
    "limited"...that was certainly not my intention.
    
    FWIW...I myself do not have the right "sensitivities" ( much better
    word - thanks ) for the THOTH deck and am much happier reading with
    the Waite pack so I don't consider such people "limited".
    
    
    I'm interested to know what you find "distracts" you when using
    the Waite deck ?
    
    
    Humbly, Dave.

    Re: last few
    
    Sensitivities might be a good word, but I consider limitations just
    as valid.  Limitation is not an inherently negative concept to me.
    Boundaries can be good; for instance I consciously try to _limit_
    the products I use to those that will have either a beneficial effect
    (or at least not damage) the environment.  This means, for instance,
    that I have no air conditioning in my car or my home (at least until
    they start using technologies that don't employ CFC's).  I tend
    to think that consciously selecting the limits for one's self is 
    important; I think the harm often begins when, robotlike, we
    relinquish our power of choice and allow our limits to be always
    defined by others.
    
    Neither are "naturally bestowed" limits inherently negative.
    To draw another physical analogy, I have limits on my bodily
    attributes that have kept me out certain careers, i.e., being a 
    prizefighter or a champion figure skater.  But even if I can't be 
    a champion figure skater I can exercise and improve what I can do
    and make it the best it can be.  The same can be said of working 
    with the cards.  It also makes sense, using this analogy, that 
    some may never want to use the Thoth deck (or be a prizefighter
    :-))--it just isn't a goal of theirs (just as prizefighting is no
    goal of mine).  And they'll be perfectly happy _and effective_
    working within that limitation.
    
    There are also those who decry prizefighting (and the Thoth deck)
    as inherently evil for various reasons, but that's another story.
    
    Marcia

    Re: .160
            
    I don't think I've ever worked out *why* I didn't feel comfortable
    about the Thoth cards...
                     
    I suppose it's because:
                     
    a) It's Crowley himself that worries me
                     
    b) The suits themselves have non-standard names, and the major arcana
    has been significantly altered:-
    - there's nothing wrong with that - it's just that as I'm still
    learning my way round traditional tarot cards, this will confuse
    things           
                     
    c) I bought them for the artwork and not for actual use
                     
    However, for whatever reason, I feel they are sinister, and having
    always listened to my "vibes" about things, I know well enough to
    leave them alone.
            
    No Deja Vu jokes please !!

    Re .167 (Deja):
    
    Actually, this has been somewhat covered before.
    
    I've used the Thoth deck upon occasion, but I'm not fond of it (I
    get my best results with the Morgan-Greer deck); however, I _can_
    use it.  The symbolism in it is powerful, but grating, to me, making
    it harder for me to get a clear series of results.
    
    As I commented to someone offline, there are some people who like
    the crowley deck, and others who don't.  There are also some people
    who like steak, and others who like liver.  To me, the Morgan-Greer
    deck is like steak; the Crowley deck is like liver.  I like steak,
    and I don't like liver.  Others like liver and don't like steak.
    
    Hope the analogies help.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    I have been reading through the Tarot notes for the last couple
    of days and have decided to learn to use the cards.  I have a couple
    of questions concerning obtaining the cards and actually learning
    how to read.
    
    1).  Would it be advisable to have my son purchase cards for me
    as he is more familiar with where to get them than I.
    
    2).  Should I also have him pick me up one of the mentioned books
    in the file to help me get started.
    
    3).  Should I find a master to help me with this or is it ok to
    go it alone.
    
    I'm not new to being able to pick things up and I have been able
    to feel when things are going to wrong but I have not use any type
    of tools to read.  
    
    Any suggestion would be helpful.
    
    Denise
    

Denise,

Your son can take you to where the good decks are, but the best thing for you 
to do is pick the one which you like the best, which feels the best.  Be 
prepared to spend at least a half-hour, because you may want to take some time 
making the choice.  If there's a store with open sample decks, that is best 
because some decks have *some* cards that you might like, while you might not 
like others, so the idea is to get the deck you like best, overall.
    
>    2).  Should I also have him pick me up one of the mentioned books
>    in the file to help me get started.

It couldn't hurt.  I recommend Waite's book, personally.
    
>    3).  Should I find a master to help me with this or is it ok to
>    go it alone.

It's OK to go it alone; then if you feel you'd like to take a class, check out 
your local metaphysical bookstore.
    
>    I'm not new to being able to pick things up and I have been able
>    to feel when things are going to wrong but I have not use any type
>    of tools to read.  

You may decide you don't need them.  Tarot is really good symbology, either 
way.
    
Meredith

Well, this has gotten me confused...  I read the book (recommended by
Meredith in some other note), _The Inner Guide Meditation_ and really liked 
it (thanks Meredith!!).  I have since decided to use this approach after 
I take the time to explore a bit into the connection between the Tarot and 
Astrology.  I also want to use my drawing/painting to work with the symbology.  
To help in this, I bought a Tarot deck and a book, one in which I liked the 
pictures (and one that coincidently fell open to the 'ART' card when I 
inadvertantly cut the deck).  I began reading the book (and subsequently this 
note) only to find I bought the Thoth deck that seems to be discouraged a bit.  
I've also read through the Crowley note.  Until I read these things I had no 
preconceived ideas or feelings about the deck and felt comfortable with it.

Anyway, my point is (I guess) that I don't believe that there can be a
connection between these cards and someone who died in 1947 other than one
I make.  I see this in the switch in my attitude towards them before and 
after I realized what I had purchased.  *I* created the connection.  Since
I have realized this, I feel like they were the right choice after all and
plan on using them - without soaking them in holy water :').

I'll let you all know how it goes...

Terry

PS - If you don't hear from me in three weeks, call the Ghostbusters :'))))).

  Since I recently re-found my copy of "The Sacred Tarot" to answer a few
 of my own questions regarding the origin of the book (see 755.46), I also
 took this opportunity to search within the book for a section that I recalled
 as having the most remarkable and concise summation of Tarot symbology that
 I have ever seen.  The verbatim text follows :


	The ancients placed so great importance upon the development of will
	power that they formulated a science of the will, the various phases
	of which each have a correspondence to one of the Major Arcana of the
	tarot.  In expressing this, the name of each major card is taken as
	the emblem of some special principal involved.  This science of the
	will, as given in An Egyption Initiation, is as follows:

	  "In uniting successfully the twenty-two significations which emanate
	  from these symbols, their ensemble is summed up in the term,

			    "The Synthesis of Magic".

	  "The Human Will (1), enlightened by Science (2), and manifested by
	  Action (3), creates the Realization (4), of a power which it uses or
	  abuses according to good or bad Inspiration (5), in the circle which
	  has been traced for it by the laws of universal order.  After having
	  surmounted the Trial (6), which has been imposed by Divine Wisdom,
	  he will enter by his Victory (7), into possession of the work it has
	  created, and establishing his Equilibrium (8), upon the axis of
	  Prudence (9), he will rule the oscillations of Fortune (10).

	  "The Force (11), of man, sanctified by Sacrifice (12), which is the
	  voluntary offer of himself upon the alter of devotion or expiation,
	  triumphs over death.  This divine Transformation (13), raises 9him
	  beyond the tomb into the serene region of infinite progress and
	  opposes the reality of Initiative (14), to the eternal falsehood of
	  Fatality (15).  The course of time is marked by Ruins (16), but
	  beyond every ruin one sees reappear the dawn of Hope (17), or the
	  twilight of Deception (18).

	  "Unceasingly, man aspires to that which ever flees from him, and the
	  Sun of Happiness (19), will only rise for him beyond the Tomb (20),
	  after the renewal of his being by death, which opens to him a higher
	  sphere of Will, Intelligence and Action.

	  "Every will that lets itself be governed by the instincts of the
	  flesh abdicates its liberty and is bound to the Expiation (22), of
	  its errors.  On the contrary, every will which unites itself to
	  Deity in order to manifest truth and work justice, enters even in
	  this life, into a participation of divine power over beings and
	  things, Recompence (21), eternal of Freed Spirits (0)."

	I not only earnestly recommend to all students that they commit the
	above summary of the Major Arcana to memory and meditate upon it
	frequently, but that they use it as a mantram.  It contains vastly
	more of truth and power than appears on the surface, and used as a
	mantram has been singularly potent in establishing self-confidence
	and in building up positiveness and constructive power of will.

			Excerpt from  "The Sacred Tarot"
			     Chapter  "Scope and Use of Tarot"
				  by   Elbert Benjamine
				       Copyright 1936


 The names used for the Major Arcana may have to be adjusted from the Egyptian
 terms to those of your deck to be useful in your own tarot readings, yet I
 hope that this may still help to clarify for you, as it has for me, the
 systematic interrelatedness of the tarot Major Arcana and the richness of its
 symbology.
						Todd

    
    RE: .165 
    
    	Dave,
    	I know the Waite Deck is GREAT for many people, but for me...
    
    	Waite seemed to be very serious about his oaths of secrecy he
    had taken in various organizations. I also believe that this may
    of stopped him from putting all he could have in the deck.
    
       	**The backs of the cards are sort of, well...normal for cards.
    I take readings very seriously when I do them for someone and the
    pattern of the backs remind me of an Old-Maid card set I had when
    I was a kid.**
    
    	The colors of the Waite deck are very bright and sometimes
    feel like I am using the sunday comics for a reading.
    
    	On top of this...I love the artwork on the Thoth deck,
    and the shades are easyer on the eyes :-). The keywords on the
    bottom are also very helpful to the subject of the reading to help
    them "go along with the story".
         
    	Now I also think Crowley left nothing back when he came up with
    most of the symbolism. (.171 I couldn't have said it better) Crowley
    was a mortal man. I however knew about his "other stuff" before
    having a mentor suggest that I buy the Thoth deck. Before that time
    I only had a limited intrest in the Tarot at all. My intrest picked
    up and I am very happy with the deck.
    
    	now add up all the "dislikes and memories" I have about things
    linked with the Waite deck against all the "positive" feelings I
    have for the Thoth, and then attempt to go back to the Waite deck
    to do a reading. I get a "NO GO" whenever I have tried. 
    
    Craig

    Re .173 ( Craig )
    
    Yes, it's been mentioned before that Waite tended to "defuse" much of
    his work, as much to protect the naive as to blindly hold to his vows of
    secrecy. But there is a lot more to his deck than immediately meets the
    eye. 
    
    His book ( 'The Pictorial Key to the Tarot' ) is interesting as a
    treatise on the design of a deck but again contains far more than is
    immediately obvious ; it is packed with oblique cross-references and
    allusions intended, I think, to make the information available to the
    serious student rather than the one-pass reader. 
    
    Also, within his descriptions, of the Major Arcana particularly, there
    are many phrases along the lines of "but the meaning of this symbology
    does not concern us here" - note that this implies that the required
    symbology *IS* present on the card but that he isn't going to give you
    more than pointers as to the true usage. And he gives plenty of pointers
    once you start looking ! 

    
    Re : starting out...
    
    Although I started out with "Tarot of the Witches" ( the one designed
    for the Bond film !!! some very odd influences - anyone had sustained
    success with it by the way ? ), for the reasons above I believe the
    Waite deck to be excellent to begin with. It's very gentle and difficult
    to hurt yourself with when starting out but has grown steadily in
    meaning and power as my understanding has increased.

    But pick whatever's right for you,
    
    Dave.
    
    P.S. Craig, yeah the colors are bright but when seen through
    Sun-glasses ( preferably rose-tinted )...  (;^)

    
    RE 174 (Dave)
    
    	I believe I have read "The Pictorial Key..." a few years back.
    Is it a cute little book, bout the size of an Atlas? It was informative
    however.
    	If anyone is interested in looking into the symbolism of the
    Thoth deck, or in any deck for that matter, another possible source
    is a book called "777" (Humm...why does that number ring a bell?)
    This book as well as "Book of Thoth" (obviously) gives the reader
    a good deal of info. (i would recomend checking conclusions with
    other sources.)

RE: .173 (Craig) 

    > Now I also think Crowley left nothing back when he came up with
    > most of the symbolism. 

    FWIW:  The deck I recently bought came with a book.  In the book it
    explains the origin of Crowley's deck.  He himself did not come up
    with the symbolisim, he hired an artist (name; Leslie something, I
    think).  She painted about 75 paintings, but both of them died before
    the actual deck was created.  Someone picked up from where they left
    off.  

    This is all from memory.  If anyone is interested, I can verify what
    I've said.

    Terry
    

RE: 176 (Terry)
    
    > <<Not Crowley's symbolism>>
    
    I might be mistaken but I believe that the *symbolism* is Crowley's.
    He designed the deck in rough form but got an extremely good artist
    to execute it.  I think that a lot of people's positive reaction
    to the deck is to the energy and skill of the artist.  Unquestionably
    the Toth artist (I'm blanking on her name too) was better than Smith
    (who executed Waite's design for the Rider pack) who seems to have
    been merely a competent illustrator rather than a "real" artist.
    
RE: ???
    
    > <<Color's of Rider/Waite/Smith deck>>
    
    There are two different companies (that I have seen) publishing the
    Rider deck.  One is University Press (founded by Eden Gray, by-the-by)
    and these are quite hard to find.  The other, which is what you
    usually see in stores is by, I think, American Games Systems.  The
    colors in the U-P edition are less glaring and seem to correspond
    a bit closer to the colors described in Pictorial Key.  These cards
    have pale pink back with an ankh in the center.
    
    						Topher
        

RE: .177 (Topher)

    >  I might be mistaken but I believe that the *symbolism* is Crowley's.
    >  He designed the deck in rough form but got an extremely good artist
    >  to execute it...

    I think you're right (based upon what I remember from my reading).
    I'll check it out...

    Thanks,
    Terry
    

    re .177
    
    My Ryder-Waite "type" cards are very brightly coloured and have
    a beige/buff/brown -ish back with a very ornamental key on them
    I have looked all over for a make/manufacturer/name of some sort
    on them but found nothing.  By the time I was reading the DEJAVU
    notes file, I had thrown the original presentation box away and
    I keep them wrapped in a black cloth in a black bag.
    
    Interestingly enough, there are a couple of completely plain white
    cards - perhaps intended for the blank card method discussed in
    this conference ages ago.  I've never tried using a blank card in
    the pack though - I suppose I'd rather not risk the suggestion of
    not doing the reading - SPOT THE AMATEUR here - still I'm learning.
    
    Deja

Re: .177 (me) and .179 (Deja)
    
    I should clarify -- both editions are brightly colored.  To my eye
    at least (and for that of some other people I've talked about it
    to) the non-University-Press edition crosses the line to "garish".
    
    					Topher

    
    RE: .176-.177
    
    	I checked and found out that the name of the artist of the Thoth
    deck was a Lady Frida Harris. 

    I had a friend of mine buy my tarot cards over the weekend and I
    also brought a book Easy Tarol Guide by Marcia Masino to help me
    learn how to read.  The deck that I have is the Rider-Waite deck
    and I like it very much.  I feel very good about these cards and
    can't wait to start doing some readings.
    
    Denise

    re: .182
    
    	Enthusiasm is good, but remember, the first few readings might
    not be all that coherent.  Trust your instincts and practice using
    the cards; you'll see your ability get better with each reading.
    
    	enjoy...
    
    
    	Greg

    RE: .181
    
        Yep.  The rest of the story is that Crowley made some rough
        sketches that Ms. Harris later painted.  His plan was to correct
        and update the medieval Tarot over a three month period.  As
        most projects go, they missed their date.  It took five years
        and was one of his last projects before he died in 1947.
        She painted 78 cards incorporating 1200 symbols.  Neither she
        nor Crowley saw them published (she died in 1962).  In 1969
        Major Grady L. McMurty, who helped Crowley publish _The Book
        of Troth_, had the paintings photographed and published.

        (From _Tarot, Mirror of the Soul_ by Gerd Ziegler)

        Terry

    re .182 (Denise)
    
    I bought the Marcia Masino "Easy Tarot" too, and find it a really
    good approach to understanding all the cards.  The only problem
    is trying to find enough time to study it (and them) properly!
    
    Deja

    Deja,
    
    > The only problem is trying to find enough time to study it (and
      them) properly!
    
    I know. It is hard to find time.  I have been working with the cards
    in the morning before work.  I can work one section at time and
    I won't be interrupted by anyone in the mornings.
    
    Denise

    Re: 3.177
    
    Topher,
    
    The "other company" you refer to is U.S. Games Systems.
    
    Nanci

    
    thought I would throw this out to the crowd to see what answers
    come back.
    
    	1) What obligations is a tarot reader under when doing a reading
    		for someone.
    
    	2) What are some methods that can be used to interpret a reading
    		that is on target yet unpleasant.
    
    	These questions which are somewhat linked are bought on by a
    reading I reciently had in which a friend (professional reader)
    gave me a reading which was both good/bad (yin/yang) however what
    I felt was interesting was a seeming uncomfortablish feeling he
    seemed to express. 
    	I dislike doing readings for family or close friends due to
    my belief that I could express unconscious feelings or ideas without
    my knowledge.
    
    	whats your ideas?
    
    	 Craig                                                        
    

    Re .189 ( Craig )
    
    In My Opinion etc...

    
    >>	1) What obligations is a tarot reader under when doing a reading
    >>		for someone.
    
    To consider what is *best* for the querent, not necessarily the bluntest
    truth but whatever will most benefit him/her in the long term. It is
    desirable to discuss *all* the aspects of a reading whether they are
    good or bad, simply by way of caution and honesty but this discussion
    should take into account whatever the reader can deduce ( whether from
    the cards or otherwise ) of the querents capabilities, strengths,
    vulnerabilities etc. 

    I think it is important that a reader see himself as a Teacher/Guide,
    rather than an inanimate 'oracle', with a profound responsibility for
    his readings and their effect. 

        
    >>	2) What are some methods that can be used to interpret a reading
    >>		that is on target yet unpleasant.
    
    To concentrate on the positive aspects of the reading and any clues as
    to how the unpleasantness can be reduced or avoided and the reasons for
    its arising in the first place. A good reader with good cards will
    always be able to find, with effort, paths around the problems. 

    
    But I think the most important thing to stress is always that what the
    cards intimate is *NOT* cast in stone but that they simply represent the
    aspects and influences of the instant at which they hit the table, and
    the *likely* outcome of those influences at that time. 
    
    Those aspects can be completely changed by effort on the part of the
    querent - ultimately he has control over how the outcome affects him. 
        

    >> I dislike doing readings for family or close friends due to
    
    Me too, though I will do so if asked with a warning to the effect that
    my subconscious pre-conceptions may influence the reading. 
    

    What are your thoughts on your reading, Craig ?
    
    Dave.

    
    Re: .190 (Dave)
    
    > What are your thoughts on your reading, Craig?
    
    My inital response was "none of your business." :-) but perhaps
    I could modify the question to...
    
    "What are your thoughts on your readings, Craig?" 
    
    	Well, I use readings as a method of seeing another view/angle
    of a situation.(not written in stone but as a "could be" if things
    continue as is.) Like having a cups fall on a area where I have
    been stressing disks/penticals lets me look at things again in a
    way that I didn't look at it before. or in a way I overlooked.
    	all cards no matter what the position are good in that they
    represent a change/lesson that I can learn from.
    	In the past readings seemed to stress that I have a good base
    but that I dont utilize it. sort of saving and saving for winter
    during April. (Nice to do but its not the time.) but I should
    have some opertunities to use what I know and have in the near future.
    This reading was consistant.
    
    Craig

re 3.189: ethics...

       �1)  What  obligations  is  a  tarot  reader  under when doing a 
       �reading for someone.
       
           I  can  only speak for myself: I feel that consulting an 
           oracle  (regardless of the method employed) is a sort of 
           cross  between having a discussion with a priest and one 
           with  a  doctor.  The  reader should tell the truth, and 
           commit no lies of either omission or commission.

       �2)  What  are  some  methods  that  can  be used to interpret a 
       �reading that is on target yet unpleasant.
 
           With  the above in mind I believe that one should make a 
           number of value judgments: since I don't believe that we 
           lack  free  will, it follows that many of the unpleasant 
           consequences  seen  in  the  cards  could  be avoided if 
           proper advice is given and the subject chooses to follow 
           an  appropriate  course  of  action. The classic case of 
           course  is  the reader who "sees a death". But even that 
           can  be  subjective and prone to interpretation. I would 
           feel  that  the  reader  should investigate such matters 
           with a view to expanding on the reading. In particular I 
           like  to  do  "secondary readings" on specific questions 
           raised by a preliminary, or even a detailed reading. 

           However  before  we become too deeply involved in this I 
           should remind readers that a hundred or so replies ago I 
           pointed  out  that I use the Tarot as an Oracle (reading 
           to  specific  questions) far more than I do as a general 
           'fortune  telling'  device.  I  use a traditional spread 
           only  to help identify the areas for further divination. 
           Also  I do not necessarily restrict myself to only using 
           the Tarot as a means of oracular inspiration.

           /. Ian .\

    In the process of learning how to read I am wondering if there is
    a possibility of opening myself up to unwanted influences in my
    life.  
    
    Before I work with my cards I say a prayer and that's basically
    all I do. Would you suggest preparing a little different or what
    else should I use to protect myself.  
    
    The reason why I'm asking is that a few happenings in my life make
    me feel that I have open up a can of worms again. 
    
    Any suggestions?
    
    Denise
     
     

    
    Denise,
    
    	Whatever you do that makes you feel comfortable before attempting
    a reading is all you need.  Whether it's a prayer, burning incense,
    holding a crystal, playing music, etc., it should relax you and
    make yourself ready to do a reading.
    
    	If you don't feel comfortable before you're about to attempt
    a reading, don't do it.  Put the cards down, go back later and try
    again.
    	
    	You weren't too specific about being opened up to "unwanted
    influences" so I don't know if it's the result of the deck you're
    using, the time in your life, or many other things.  Unfortunately,
    I know little about meditation and the positives you can get from
    doing it, but I have a feeling it might help your situation.  Can
    anyone else help her in this subject?
    
    
    	GCA/
    
    

    
    
    RE: .193
    
    Dennis,
    	I guess in everything their are possibilities of unwanted
    influences being present. TV,Driving, ect...
    	The most important thing about your personal preparation is
    that YOU believe it is enough. do you??? why, why not?
    
    	AH YES! The can of worms...again??? Lots of times when we return
    to something that isn't 100% full of positive remembrances wacky
    things sometimes occur in other parts of our lives. (I dont know
    if this is caused by pre-occupation with that one area, just a normally
    schedualed event, or something else but "sh*t happens"! )
    
    	well... If the ride gets too bumpy or too fast...take your foot
    			off the gas.
    		and dont charge into anything leaving your brain behind.
    
    ;-)   Have fun!
    
    	Craig

re Note 3.193 by Denise [ASIC::] Hurley

  You say you are in the process of learning how to read the Tarot. I wonder: 
  how  are  you  learning?  If  you  have  a teacher, then I suggest that you 
  discuss  your  concerns  with  them  -  lacking  further  data  might  make 
  discussion  here  rather  abstract.  If  you don't, and are learning from a 
  book, then your concerns are worthy of a response here.

  Firstly  which deck are you using? and do you feel totally comfortable with 
  the images in it. An exercise I recommend personally is to take each of the 
  cards  in  turn (you can restrict yourself to the Major Arcana if you like) 
  and  spend at least 5 minutes meditating on the images (I frequently choose 
  one  at  random and meditate on it for a couple of hours, but for this test 
  that isn't necessary). Do any of the cards evoke memories from your "can of 
  worms"?  Do any of them make you feel very uncomfortable? If so try another 
  deck. 

  Also  try  not reading for yourself until you have honed your skills. It is 
  somewhat more difficult to eliminate internal influences (memories, desires 
  etc)  from  personal  readings than for other people. Similarly it is often 
  easier  to  to read for a total stranger than for someone you know well. As 
  you  develop your skills you will learn to eliminate these personal factors 
  as you read for close friends and loved ones, even for yourself.

  Another  risk  is  that  some  decks may tend to lead one along undesirable 
  pathways  that  lead  to  the  Left  Hand  Path  (this has been said of the 
  infamous  "Thoth" deck for example). I personally feel that there is little 
  possibility  of  opening yourself up to evil spirits, or to other very real 
  dangers,  as  a learner doing essentially casual readings. The dangers here 
  are  akin  to  those  in,  say,  a ouija board: some people find that it is 
  desirable  to  set  up "wards" for protection from spirits. I personally do 
  so:  again I am not convinced that somebody developing a nascent Talent has 
  need to do so.

                                   /. Ian .\

    First,  I would like to explain alittle more about what is going
    on.  I am using the Rider deck which I am completely comfortable
    with.  I purchased a book to help me learn about how to read and
    I guess give me a better understanding of what each card means.
    
    I have read for myself once and I did that so I could understand
    what I was doing.  
    
    I guess perhaps my preparation is not what it should be because
    I not really taking the time to relax and concentrate on the cards.
    
    I guess the can of worms I spoke has to to with that a while ago
    I was practicing some witch craft and I had some negative stuff
    happen to me and I guess I decided that I was not going to open
    myself up to more grief.
    
    When I started reading this file my interest for the occult can
    back and I thought I would like to use the cards as a tool to use
    my powers.  I want to do this in a positive manner and to use my
    powers to help people.  But I got scared alittle because a couple
    of small things happen in my life that reminded me of things that
    happen when I was involve before.
    
    The small things that happen were two of my favorite cats were killed
    the same week the same way.  They were hit by a car.  This is unusual
    because I have had lots of cats for many years and I havn't lost
    them in this manner before.  Also my car engine caught fire while
    it was sitting without being on.  I know this may not seem like
    much but it certainly made me think.
    
    Right now I think that I just need to put more into preparation
    and to protect myself a bit more so nothing happens.
    
    I am making sense?  Or am I upset over nothing?
    
    Denise

    Denise,
    
    Thanks for the clarification.  
    
    Something you might consider is this:  Fear is a negative
    emotion and can draw to it the very thing that we fear.
    Personally I believe our thoughts have substance and what
    we put out we're going to get back.  Could it be that your
    fear occured before the incidents?  Could you be inadver-
    tently drawing the negative incidents to yourself through
    your fear?
    
    If so, I'd advise you to set the cards aside until you've
    dealt with the fear and resolved it.  I'd hate to see anything
    else happen to you.
    
    Nanci
    
    P.S.  I'm shedding electronic tears for your kittys.  I lost
    one recently too. :^(

    
    RE .197
    
    	Unfortunately I can relate. One of the events that got me out
    of what I was into several years ago was the death of my cat Roger
    Charlie Brown. (He was a big guy that even fetched a ball!) This
    event happened after a very scary experiance we were in together
    and it was sort of ironic that he died that way...
    
    	anyway...snif..snif...
    
    	Protection/assurance is important to feel in many things we
    do. It is hard however to help someone else find a proper method
    of Protection/assurance without knowing your belief structure.
    	For example...I strongly believe in the Great Pumpkin in the
    Charlie Brown cartoons.....If I recomend prayer to the
    Great Pumpkin to you and you listen to me it most likely wont do
    do too much good for two reasons. One...You will think what you
    are doing is stupid...Two..The Great Pumpkin only listens to the
    prayers of the sincere. ;-)
    
    	Ask people that you respect that appear to have the same beliefs
    that you do, what they do/say to feel safe/calm/self-assured in
    times of panic and doubt. 
    
    Sincerly
    
    Craig

    I am Indian and Tarot is foreign to me but occult is occult is occult.
    So, sometimes I have gone to this lady for Tarot reading. Very rarely
    has she predicted anything accurate and yet a few times I have phoned
    her she has been unbelievably accurate in describing the events
    present and future.	
    
    Can someone throw any light on this. 
    
    I have been psychic in the past but no one believed me and now I try 
    to see and nothing happens.
    
    Can someone help,
    
    Perwesh

    re: .200
    
          I do not know very much about the Tarot, and I do not
    have many experiences with psychics (per se), either.  So, maybe
    it does not fall upon me to speak for either of those groups (and
    I won't) directly.  However, based upon my understanding of
    metaphysics in general, my belief is that psychics, et al, are
    going to have a difficult time predicting your future with great
    accuracy due to the *fact* that you are in charge of your future.
    What do I mean by that?  Well, we've covered this territory in
    other notes, but briefly this means that as each of us enters
    our individual "New Age" and separates ourself from the "Old Age"
    that the power that was formerly held in the sub-conscious mind
    is now being taken to the conscious mind.  What this means is 
    that you (as an individual) are becoming more able to recognize
    that you are creating your own reality, future, and present.
    Therefore, while others can foretell *PROBABLE* events, they cannot
    see *ACTUAL* events.  Clearly a psychic can determine the present
    events and, with a reasonable probability, past events.  *My*
    admonition would be as follows, do not concern yourself too much
    with what others say your future *Will* be, rather take the advice
    as what the future *is likely to be* or *could be* and THEN determine
    the future you want and create THAT one.  Hopefully this is clear
    to you.  In any case, that is a brief and opinionated response.
    
    Frederick
    
                         

    I have been looking for "Tarot of the Wicca" without success.
    Conflicting stories have said they are either no longer in print
    or that they are available in Japan, but no longer being imported...
    Does anyone know if it is available anywhere, or does anyone have
    an extra deck they are willing to part with??

    Most people can "predict" the future by using the laws of probablility
    and sometimes there's coincidence, but occasionally ....
    
    Three months before we met, my (now) wife saw me in her cards in
    such a way that she did not believe the reading. never had she seen
    such a strong reading presented to her.  Nothing special there.
    Read on ...
    
    She read "my" cards and saw grief.  Most people have some grief,
    yes?
    
    Also tremendous upheaval.  Well meeting anyone to whom you are
    attracted creates "upheaval".  Still scpetical?
    
    Let's look a little deeper.  Two years ago, my first wife died of
    cancer and at the time of my wife's first reading I was really going
    through a phenomenal depression period - the loss was really hitting
    home as our children were becoming more independent and I was more
    alone.  Three months after the reading we met - not physically,
    but on the E-net. Three months after that we were engaged.
    
    Upheaval?  Well, as I said meeting someone who sweeps you off your
    feet is one thing, but when you live 3000 miles apart !!!!!  We
    now live in Scotland and have been happily married for almost six
    months - apart from the culture shock my wife experienced on moving
    here from the US!!!

    I played poker with a tarot deck last night...
    I got a full house and 4 people died...

    
    RE: .200
    
    > Very rarely has she predicted anything accurate and yet a few
    > times I have phoned her she has been unbelievably accurate...
                  
    	What is present, or is not present in her phone readings that
    is, or is not present when you see her for a reading?
    
    	Physical appearence (yours and hers), surrounding atmosphere,
    personal and obvious distractions, all can make or break a reading
    weather you are aware of it or not. How do you feel when you go
    there for a reading? how do you think she feels? compare these answers
    with how she appears on the phone and how you feel. Are the two
    different? what elements would cause the difference?
    
    > I have been psychic in the past but no one believed me and now
    > I try to see and  nothing happens.
    
    	Reminds me of the Three Stooges...
    
    	"I can't see!  I can't see!"
    	"Why not!"
    	"I got my eyes closed!"
    
    anyway...
    
    	I think being "psychic" can be limited to specific areas.
    Like someone "sensitive" to areas of "Cups" or "Wands" might be
    "numb" to the areas of "Swords" or "Discs". Is what you trying
    to see in the same area that you were "Psychic" in before? Are
    you in the same area you were in before? 
    	Maybe comparing what you did to see then against what you are
    doing now will provide an answer? Maybe you lost your innocense?
    
    QUESTIONS IN THE DARK
    
    Craig,   

I have a question for tarot readers who use the Thoth deck.  Do you include
the Unicursal Hexagram (black card, red symbol) in your deck when doing
a reading?  If so, how do you interpret it?  The booklet that comes with
the deck doesn't tell much about this card.

		Dave

    
    
    Re: .206
    
    	Hi Dave,
    	I can honestly say that I havn't the slightest idea what you
    are talking about. I have the deck with me and cant find a black
    card with red symbol? What is the "Key-word" on the bottom of the
    card? What suit is it? I have the book of Thoth at home and will
    check there also.  
    	Not to insult your intelligence but are you SURE this card is
    from the THOTH deck??? Is there a multi-colored cross on the backs?
    Its just that the discription doesn't match any of the cards in
    my deck. 
    
    Craig
    

Well, the deck I have has two cards that do not resemble any of the minor
or major arcana in format.  One is a blank white card and the other is a black
card with a red geometric symbol.  Neither card has any writing on it and has
the same flip side as the other cards.  The booklet that came with the deck
mentions these two extra Crowley cards.  It refers to the black card as
Crowley's personal magical seal or Unicursal Hexagram and the blank card has
no description.  There is a reference to sending away for a description in care
of the publishers.  I guess I'm going to have to start digging a little
deeper for this.

		Dave

    
    Re: .206,208
    
    I believe that the Unicursal Hexagram card is suppose to be used
    to meditate on or focus on prior to using the cards...
    
    Linda

    I think the blank card might be for use when a real card is
    damaged or lost.

    re: .205
    
    By 'psychic' I am I used to be able to see events before they occurred.
    In those days my meditation sessions were very visual, I used to
    start my meditation, loose all sensation in the body and then I
    used to go into a dreamlike state (I think). Events seen in this
    state used to happen about 2 to 3 weeks later on. Amazingly, I would
    remember the faces and even the colour of the clothes would be spot
    on. Sometimes, I would just hear a voice mentally; this would be
    very loud to me but have no physical effect on my ears. 
    
    I don't get this anymore and I very dearly miss it. I think I lost
    this ability because I diluted the experience by sharing it with
    very negative, non-believing people. I could not help it; I was
    so excited. I wish I could get it back because it was so pleasant.
    
    These days, I think, my thoughts are very muddled and very negative.
    I know we are moving away from the subject of 'Tarot' but if anyone
    has any advice, remedy or suggestions for helping me, it would have
    been worth it and in any case 'Sir Moderator' can move it to its
    appropriate resting place.
    
    Perwesh

    In my readings the blank card represents the unknown factor, 
    the unexpected, that which is undecided.  
    I always include the black card in my readings.  I wonder if there
    are perhaps two different Thoth decks, one with it and one without.
    Its meaning is supposedly one of Crowley's secrets.
    Mary 

    
    
            I also have the black and blank in my deck.  I'm VERY
    interested in whatever you may find out about the real meanings....
    Please let us know :^)
    
                                                               kim

I have a 'strange' Thoth deck too.  I don't recall reading anything in this
note that indicated that the same has occured to others.  Anyway, in my deck
are three number I major arcna.  All three have different images on them but
similar in symbology.  Two are named 'Mangus', one is named 'Magician'.
I have two different texts with photos of the Thoth major arcana.  In both,
the number I is named 'Mangus' and the images match one of mine.  There is
no mention of the other two.

Anyone have any ideas on this one?

Terry

    
    RE: .214
    
    	Lady Frida Harris did three paintings of the "Magus/Magician/Mage"
    In the newer decks all three are included so the user can pick out
    the picture/symbolism that fits him/her best. 
    
    Craig
    

re: .215 
    
    Thanks Craig.  I wasn't sure what to do with them.  There is one in
    particular that I do like, so I'll use it.

    Terry
    

I received this response in VAXmail concerning the two extra cards in the
Thoth tarot deck.

		Dave

         There should be two cards with your deck that are
         not part of the suits and major arcana.  One is blank
         [or both as in the Waite deck] and one may be
         illutrated.
         
         They are used in two ways.
         
         First, after reading or meditating, any Tarot deck
         should be *closed*...or protected from emanations
         from the outside after being receptive.  This prevents
         auras stonger than the owner of the cards intruding
         on the cards and also provides the cards with R&R
         so to speak.  The silk that they are wrapped in does
         much to help this also, but decks should always be
         *closed* by placing the blank card on the
         bottom....blank side facing the illustrated side
         of the bottom Tarot card; other blank or illustrated
         card on top....blank or illustrated side facing the
         back of the top card.  When completed, the deck looks
         *closed from either side....with a card exposing
         only the *back* from each view.
         
         Second, in the Waite deck, the two blank cards can
         be used to meditate...to clear ones thoughts. I
         *believe* the black card is used much the same, only
         it would have been unusual for Crowley to adhere
         to a thought of *blank* or *white* as producing much
         psychic focusing....a black card with red on it seems
         to fit better his view of the worlds...
         
         I have never heard of using these cards in a reading
         but that does not preclude their use....especially
         as significtors if you are trying to influence the
         topic that the cards will speak to you about. As
         cards intermingled with the rest of the deck and
         allowed to come up as they will, I see no real use,
         as they are either blank...indicating an absense
         of thought and form...or they are illustrated in
         such a way to force the reader to become
         introspective...neither case would seem to logically
         advance the subject of any reading....but I am thinking
         very superficially here....
         
         The first two uses I *know* are real...the latter...who
         knows. 

    
    Ref extra cards.
    	Just to clear things up a bit if people are getting confused
    with the Thoth deck, Magician cards, blank cards, design cards,
    ect ect.
    	Older Thoth decks have the blank card and Design card.
    Newer decks have multple Magician cards. (my present deck
    is dated 1986 and has the 3 Magicians.) I believe there was a printing
    in the 1970's that included the design and blank card.
                               
    Craig 

    
    I use the Thoth deck...the illustrations in my opinion best represent
    the power available through the use of the cards. Other decks,
    particularly Rider-Waite and Golden Dawn, have been intentionally
    diluted to preserve secrecy.
    
    I can't say for certain how the various decks are printed, but it's
    likely that they're done on large sheets which are then cut and
    collated. Possibly there are fewer tarot cards that slots on the
    press sheet, and the "informational," blank, and illustrated cards
    are included to fill space.
    
    Concerning the unicursal hexagram included in the Thoth deck, see
    Wang's _Qabalistic Tarot_ for a simple explanation.
    
    Perry

Re: < Note 3.219 by WHEEL::DONHAM "Waste is a terrible thing to mind" >

>    Concerning the unicursal hexagram included in the Thoth deck, see
>    Wang's _Qabalistic Tarot_ for a simple explanation.
    
Hi Perry,

Would you mind entering the explaination?  I'm not sure when I'll be able
to find _Qabalistic Tarot_.

		Thanks,

		  Dave

    Has anyone used the Mythic Tarot card deck?  How do you like it?
    
    I had never seen it before, and I just bought it the other day (in
    Royal bookstore).  I feel very good using it, and so far it's been very 
    accurate.
    

    Linda

    
    Re: .221
    	Its a nice little deck! Did you get the book that goes with
    the deck? Its a good book that covers everything pretty well and
    is geared for people who enjoy Tarot but dont want to get too
    deeply involved with it. Made more for the enjoyment of Tarot than
    the "othodox study". But I think the one who goes for the "enjoyment"
    learns more both long and and short term.
    
    Craig
    
    

    
    Re: .222
    
    It can in a package that has a book and a black cloth that has the
    Celtic cross lay-out on it...
    
    I've used the Ryder deck before (didn't care for it at all....)
    and I've been using the Thoth deck, but I felt that the accuracy
    I was getting with the Thoth has decreased.   I just didn't like
    using the Thoth deck anymore.  I love using the Mythic, though.
    It has very good, positive "vibes"...  I bought the deck on a whim.
    Basically, I was looking through the occult section at Royal books,
    and I looked up and there on the top shelf was the deck.  It looked
    interesting, so I bought it....
    
    Linda

    Re:  Various previous notes about extra cards in the Thoth pack:
    
    I seem to have been short-shipped !  I have had my Thoth cards for
    about 10 or 12 years and they have neither blank cards, black cards,
    hexagram cards or even 3 Magicians.
    
    I take it that everyone's Court Cards comprise of Page, Princess,
    Prince and Queen ?
    
    These cards seem to get more and more mysterious !
    
    Deja

re: .224 (Deja)

    I think the extra magicians come with a recently published edition.
    I bought it about 3-4 months ago.  I now notice that on the box it
    says '80 card edition'.  It comes in a bookshelf type box that has
    a small instruction booklet enclosed within it (burgundy colored
    box).

    Terry

    
    RE: .224
    
    	Oh great.....Where did the Page come from??? I have Princess,
    Prince, Knight, and Queen. 
    
    	Well I guess the deck has picked up something new each time
    it has been printed by someone else. It appears this is rational from
    a marketing standpoint.
                                           
    Craig

    Perhaps I am confused - this often happens - it may well be Knights
    not Pages - sorry I'll have to check.
    
    So don't get too excited I don't think I've discovered a rare hybrid
    pack !
    
    

    
    Re. .227
    	
    	I think you might have confused Princess for Pages. I am rather
    certain that Knights would not be changed for Pages. It is a bit
    more likely that the Princess would have more in common with the
    young adolesent/Page and I could see these two being substituted
    for each other in decks. I also dont believe Crowley used any
    Pages in any of his decks. I believe he wanted to show the young
    confused youth as a female not a Page. I wont go into this further
    cause I may be in hot-water. ;-)
    
    Craig (now back to ISOG:: to see how this "Burp" thing is going.)

    
    
    re: .227, .228
    
    Crowley's court cards are:  The Knight, The Queen, The Prince, and
    the Princess.
    
    Joanne
    

    
    This weekend I got two new decks of cards.  Neither deck conforms
    to a standard Tarot deck and I wanted to share this information
    with you..
    
    The first deck is called "Medicine Cards."  It comes as a set, a
    book and 44 cards, written and put together by Jamie Sams and David
    Carson (who I believe is Agnes' and Ruby's nephew - the Medicine
    Women in Lynn Andrews books - if my memory is really good, David
    was the person who brought the crystals to Agnes when she was going
    to teach Lynn a new lesson).
    
    This is taken without permission from the accompanying book:
    
    "Our intention, as shamans and healers, is to begin a process for
    many people who have never understood their connection to our Mother
    Earth and to all her creatures.  We hope to open a new doorway of
    understanding for those who seek the Oneness of all life.
    
    The visions that we have been given of this system are that it is
    a fun bridge which will aid in the understanding of what it means
    to 'walk in balance on the Earth Mother.' Our personal power animals
    have spoken to us through the Dream Lodge and have asked for our
    assistance in spreading the understanding that all life is sacred,
    and in sharing the lessons which they have to impart.
    
    This system of divination and understanding has brought great medicine
    to our own lives and has been a very powerful and joy-filled journey
    in the making.  It is a 'give-away' from the four-leggeds, the creepy-
    crawlers, the finned ones, and winged-ones."
    
    It is fun to use and from what I have seen so far, informative.
    
    _______________________________________________________________________
    
    The second deck is called, "Deva Tarot."  It consists of 93 cards
    (but not difficult to hold as they aren't thick and their size 
    makes them easy to shuffle).  There are 5 suite in this deck:  disks;
    swords; wands; cups; and triax.  There is also an additional major
    acarna, "The Separator," #22.  The court consists of the Prince,
    the Princess, the Knight, and the Queen.  One of the not so obvious
    differences is that the Prince in this deck represents the building
    and intelligence aspects; the Queen depicts the ruling, organizing
    and manipulative aspects.
    
    Some of the write-up that accompanies this deck will follow.  Again,
    this is not being reproduced with permission.
    
    "Devae, or Deva in the plural, is a form of life other than human
    and is not perceived by physical eyes.  Mankind has known of the
    Deva since the dawn of time, but under names which changed as cultures
    and philosophies rose and fell...
    
    The Deva Tarot deck recognizes and displays the existence and
    activities of this species of life, and combines it with other,
    lmore commonly known forms of knowledge.
    
    Meditation and other possibilities of communication with unseen
    and generally unrecognized intelligences underlie the basic philosophy
    of the Deva Tarot deck.  Because within this deck there are many
    references to the unseen in its myriad forms, with correlations
    and subtle cross-correlations, students of many philosophies are
    able to find themselves and their pathways within its depths.
    
    This deck is designed with the serious student of metaphysical and
    related fields in mind.  It is not for furtune telling but for deep
    thinking, growth, meditation, and counseling.  It presents some
    of the old teachings in new aspects, and breaks with tradition in
    a number of significant ways.  One of these breaks with tradition
    lies in the fact that this deck has five suits instead of the usual
    four.  The point behind this fifth suit is that there are more than
    just the traditional four elements to be considered and to learn
    from and about.  As the new age progresses, many will discover that
    the old boundries and limitations now seem like mere starting points...
    The fifth suite is called Triax and represents the etheric or spirit.
    This suit is the bridge, or continuation of continuity between the
    earthly and the divine, the physical and the non-physical.  When
    the Triax suit is seen in a reading, it generally refers to events
    and influences on a higher or soul level.  Wands deal with the energies
    and creativity, swords with intelligence and mind, disks (or pentacles)
    with the body, finances, and physical appetites, cups with the emotions
    and sensitivity, and now the Triax, which deals with the spirit
    and higher self, or soul.  Triax is the binding factor between astral
    and mental, the pool from which manifestation comes, making the
    combining of the four divisions possible.  It is the bridge between
    the lower, earthly triad of bodies and the higher, divine triad.
    The lower triad consists of the emotional body, lthe physical body,
    and the astral body. Next is the bridging etheric body, followed
    by the higher triad fromed of the mental body, the spiritual body,
    and the divine body.  Triax can be separated into higher and lower."
    
    The additional major trump, The Separator, expresses the diverse
    ways that potential, skill and life can interact.
    
    I find the card to be beautiful.  They're full of movement/energy
    and just seem to speak.  If you get a chance to take a look at them
    when you're at your local metaphysical store, do so.  They may be
    difficult to come by as I think they are new and I don't think that
    US Game Systems, Inc. is distributing them.  Mine came from "The
    Sphinx" in Atlanta.
    
    Joanne
    
    
    

    
     JOANNE, I agree the medicine cards are wonderful. I havent had
    much opportunity to look to close but I'm hoping to purchase a deck
    soon. I havn't had much experience with tarot,I've been using other
    tools to open to self and expanding my awarwness.I just recently
    started reading this notes file and I jumped ahead a bit. Have you
    seen the Voyager deck? What a beautiful deck of cards.A teacher
    of mine used them at medicine shield work shop I partricipated in
    and that is what sparked my interest in using tarot as a tool.
    Even thought I try not to depend on to many tools to open myself
    up to spirit I definitly would like to experience the Medicine Cards
                       Harmony and Light
                              Bright Eyes
    

    
    Somewhere in the deep recesses of this topic, someone asked me to
    enter the description of the Unicursal Hexagram that apears in
    _Quabalistic Tarot_ (Robert Wang, Samuel Weiser, Inc., York Beach,
    Maine). I finally had a terminal, the book, and my memory all in
    one place, so here it is:
    
    "The idea of paths which are "secret," or "hidden" seems to have
    been introduced (or atleast popularized) by Paul Case. There is
    no evidence of the Golden Dawn having schematized any paths other
    than the traditional thirty-two. Actually, the Secret Paths are
    nothing more than the connection of every Sephira with evry other
    Sephira, suggesting that it is possible to move _directly_ from
    any form of conciousness to any other. This theory is a mitigation
    of the idea implied in the usual Tree of Life diagram, that we must
    pass through one Sephira before we encounter another.
    
    "The concept of Secret Paths definitely expands the possibilities
    of the Tree. It also allows us to see certain relationships which
    would not be obvious otherwise, such as the derivation of the Unicursal
    Hexagram from the Tree itself. This figure was published first by
    Aleister Crowley, who undoubtedly derived it in this way. In a Tree
    of Life drawn by Crowley, and published in the 1955 Neptine Press
    edition of _777_, we discover that Crowley has shown all of the
    additional lines between Sephiroth required to make that figure."
    
    Not as concise as I had remembered it, but there it is. BTW, Wang
    is the fellow who drew the Golden Dawn Tarot deck in collaboration
    with Israel Regardie.
    
    Perry

    
    RE .232
    
    	Perry,
    Does the unicursal hexagram cover all ten of the Spheres in the
    Tree of life? I always pictured it to only include the first 6
    (Kether, Chockmah, Binah, Chesed, Geburah, and Tiphereth) with
    the center being in the Abyss or Daath. How can it cover all 10
    (or 11) ??
    
    Craig

    
    Craig, you're right, of course; the passage from _QT_ is
    a bit vague.
    
    Perry

    RE: -<some replys back>
    
    I have the Mythic Tarot and I too find a discrepancy in the court
    cards.  Could this be accurate:
    
    		MYTHIC			CROWLEY
    		------			-------
    
    		King			Knight
    
    		Queen			Queen
    
    		Knight			Prince
    
    		Page			Princess
    
    ****
    
    Also the idea of a blank card to signify a "no go" reading is
    interesting.  But there was a "test" that someone mentioned:  she
    used two questions, "can the card answer?", then "will the cards
    answer?"  She then read the meanings of the cards that appeared
    and then deciphered whether she has a "green" or "red" light to
    proceed with a reading.  The second is one I think would produce
    a purer reply, since it is "the cards" answering and not an added
    non-card which is arbitrary to the Tarot.
    
    BTW, I've only read for a few people, and have read for myself.
    It was also mentioned that the Mythic is not really "real" Tarot
    but is good for the person that does it for the enjoyment of it.
    
    Well, when I seasoned my cards by sleeping with it, I had very vivid
    dreams and woke up several times during the night in cold sweat.
    Needless to say, I didn't get much sleep, and my muscles were very
    sore the next morning.  It was as if I had actually done the things
    I dreamt about, thus I was tired and sore!  It wasn't enjoyable.
    
    I think I get accurate readings.  I have sometimes gotten some profound
    replies when I read.  It does give me pause sometime.  I haven't
    used any other deck, and I don't really meditate with the cards
    either.
    
    Tony

    
    
    RE: .235  Tony
    
    I also have the Mythic Tarot and must agree with you....the
    readings I have had for myself and done for others have been
    really profound and rich with meaning. The readings got right
    to the heart of the issues being questioned.
    
    Carole

    Carole,
    
    It's nice have fellow conspirators  ;') . . .
    
    Yes, isn't it amazing how profound the outcomes are with this
    particular type of deck.
    
    Last night I did a reading for a friend of mine (she doesn't mind
    my telling this story), and I used the Celtic Cross layout with
    the black silk cloth.  She had asked a question about her health/social
    life, y'see she somewhat resembles Diane Keatin's character in the
    movie "Looking For Mr Goodbar", so she's anxious about trying a
    quieter life.
    
    Well the cards were right on target, and showed a very optimistic
    chance that this renewed awareness she has about her life and the
    quality of her health/friends/etc. will find her on the way to a
    happiness that her privious "life" denied her.  In the position
    of "Future Influences" sat the Ace of Cups, well, she is indeed
    ready for a good relationship and is primed for real love and
    commitment.
              
    This layout requires 10 cards, she drew out 11 cards.  I had set
    the 11th card back on top of the remaining deck.  Well, from the
    overall view of the cards, it seems that a new love is in store
    for her, and I seemed to realize that the 11th card was not really
    a mistake, but really a revealer of this "new love".  I turned this
    extra card over, and lo and behold it was a King of Swords!
                                                         
    Well, I only informed her about the usual reading.  I did not mention
    anything about the 11th card to her, since this was only a hunch
    or a feeling on my part.  I will "monitor" her for the next 6 months
    or so to see if I was correct in this matter.
    
    But I'm sure I'm on target -- this feeling about the 11th card was
    very strong.  It does give me pause.
    
    <--<TONY<< 
         

    re .237
    Arn't the 'Hunches and feelings' what Tarot is all about? This is
    more a question than a statement.
    								-Larry

    
    re: hunches and feelings
    
    Larry, you might well have left your question a statement. I see
    the Tarot as a counseling tool...the better you are as a counselor,
    the better your "accuracy" will be. The Tarot allows the querant
    to examine a situation in his/her life in a very systematic fashion;
    most folks get overwhelmed when they try to think about things on
    their own. With the cards on the table, she/he can say, "What is
    it that is preventing me from achieving this goal?"
    
    As the reader, it's your responsibility to help the querant pull
    out the answers to these questions from within him/herself...I'm
    not convinced that the Tarot allows you to "see" the future; rather,
    it lets you examine patterns that already exist in the subconscious,
    and from those pattern you can predict future action.
    
    Note that this is my opinion on how the Tarot is used in    
    "fortune-telling." I have a somewhat different view on using the
    archetypes of the Tarot for magical purposes.
    
    Perry 

    Larry  &  Perry...
    
    Yes, I agree that a reader must have an empathy with the cards and
    that the vibes or feelings that develop are a direct result of the
    quierant's holistic sympathic messages whereby the reader is revealed
    the state of the quirant in terms of the quest/question.
    
    But I was "taken" by the unexpected realization of the purpose of
    the 11th card.
    
    In previous notes, there were mentioned creative enhancement that
    reader had instituted into their readings.  However, these "twists"
    that strayed from convention were agreed or acknowledged before
    hand and were considered "legitimate".
    
    I was not expecting an eleven-card celtic cross to arise!  This
    is where I find my sence of propriety and my regard to law/order/axiom
    challenged. Thus I was flustered and I entered into a cognitive
    disonance:  "Left-Brained Me said, 'a celtic cross reading requires
    only 10 cards!', Right-Brained Me said, 'but those 10 cards point
    to the 11th card that was drawn!"
    
    At any rate, the friend knows of a new love and is hopeful.  She
    does seem to be doing better now.  She's not unhappy, and her new
    life has brought a renewed glow in her appearance.
    
    Tony   

        I will not use the NATIVE AMERICAL TAROT.
        
        Over the weekend I broused the local metaphysical bookstore and I
        did what was suggested in many previous notes.  I handled and
        viewed the cards for empathic messages from the cards and for the
        ideal artistic and symbolic stability of the arcanum.
        
        There were many different styles and types, and I handled them
        all with the help of a very sweet saleslady.  The Voyager,
        although pretty, reminded me of magazines; the Rider-Waite, and
        many others had spurious coloring; the Crowley, was beautiful,
        but the husband of the saleslady disuaded me from that deck, he
        sensed that I am not ready to use it.
        
        Then I spied the Native American deck.
        
        The pictures are fine, and the use of Hosteen Coyote is appropo,
        but the drawing of the Navajo Holy People in the whirling logs
        arangement I found apalling.
        
        This "drawing" is a part of a Navajo healing ceremony called
        "H�tallth".  The dipiction of the Holy people seeks the strenght
        and other attributes they possess that helped them overcome the
        adversity that is depicted in the drawing.  Then all the negative
        energy is drawn/absorbed into the sand, thus letting the
        "patient"'s own energy regain control and revitalize his self and
        become whole.  The sand, with the negative energy, is then cast
        into the elements to let mother nature cure it.
        
        You see, these sandpainting drawings are used for only one
        purpose and for one moment, then cast away.  If another healing
        is required, then a totally new drawing is made.
        
        To see that that drawing is emblazen on a pieces of cardboard
        that is supposed to be a diagnostic aid in therapy put me in
        turmoil.  I can appreciate that whomever created the NA deck had
        good intentions of capturing the powers of the land/people/spirit,
        but it seems to me that he/she should have collected a consortium
        of Native American healers to guide the best compilation of symbols
        and subjects.
        
        ***************
        
        I think I feel qualified in my statement.  I am a full-blood
        Navajo, my father was a Singer/Medicine Man.
        
        I also read my Tarots in a Native fasion.  I always do reading on
        the floor with me facing east and the querent at my left (facing
        south).  This is the usual setting of any diagnostic session.  I
        try to do readings in my own home, since I was careful to ensure
        that my front door faces east.  I feel I derive better outcomes
        this way. When I have read cards on the table with the querent
        facing me on the opposite side of the cards, it seems eratic and
        confusing, even violent outcomes were the norm.
        
        Well, enough said.
        
        Tony
        

>the Crowley, was beautiful,
>but the husband of the saleslady disuaded me from that deck, he
>sensed that I am not ready to use it.

Foo on him; how did YOU feel about it?

        RE: <.242>
        
        How did I feel about the Crowley?
        
        Indeed it was beautiful.
        
        I saw several things I liked about it.  I liked the artwork, how
        at the same time I saw outerspace, innerspace, and otherspace.
        
        I felt that I was an astronaut exploring the far reaches of our
        solar system and beyond.  I could see the tubes of the black
        holes and the white holes allowing me to whiz through space and
        time.
        
        I felt that I was a doctor exploring the body, thumping on
        synapses, squeezing organs for resiliency, checking the various
        life-sustaining systems that work in a concerted  manner, ever
        revitalizing, and always harmoniously to maintain the vessel of
        our spirit.
        
        I felt that I was a master of some type (shaman/priest/healer
        somehow seem inept terms) exploring the otherness of our being;
        enabled to see, thump, twang at the essences and otherlinesses that
        make up and surround us.
        
        I felt this in the Crowley.
        
        It now seems to me that the Crowley would make an excellent
        meditation vehicle for me.  I will go back and get this deck.
        There were two sizes, I liked the larger one, simply because the
        details shouldn't be ignored or squinted at to appreciate.
        
        Thanks, Daniel, for encouraging me to re-think the Crowley.  (I
        must confess that my opinion of the Crowley was prejudiced by
        some of the earlier replies in this topic.)
        
        peace/hozh�j�
        
        Tony

    
    RE: <.243>
    
    	Thanks Tony,
    
    	You made my day! 
    
    	Craig  ;-)

Tony, wait 'til the archetypes start entering your dreams...you'll be
*amazed* at what they can tell you!

Perry / Tananda (also a Thoth person)

    Re .245 (Tananda):
    
>Tony, wait 'til the archetypes start entering your dreams...you'll be
>*amazed* at what they can tell you!
 
    They were rather astonished at what I told _them_, if it comes to
    that.  (Ask the High Priestess what data I presented...)   :-P
                                                                  
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    
       

   >>Tony, wait 'til the archetypes start entering your dreams...you'll be
   >>*amazed* at what they can tell you!
 
    >They were rather astonished at what I told _them_, if it comes to
    >that.  (Ask the High Priestess what data I presented...)   :-P
    
    You always *were* a card, Steve.  :^)
    
    Pat

    RE: <.245>
    
    Perry,
    
    Is this a truth!  Will the archetypes converse with me during my
    dreams?
    
    T

    A reply from otherspace:
    
    
                 <<< BOMBE::DISK_NOTES$LIBRARY:[000000]DEJAVU.NOTE;1 >>>
                             -< Psychic Phenomena >-
================================================================================
Note 3.GOOGAL                         TAROT                               1 of 1
CARDS::CROWLEY "Anyone for Cribbage?"        0 lines   1-MAR-1999 16:19

                      -<  Is Golden for the Bourgeois?  >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
               
> Note 3.244 by USACSB::CBROWN "eating jellied Newts"
    
    			     -< OUTSTANDING!!!!! >-
    
    
    Think nothing of it!
    
    C    

< Note 3.248 by ELMAGO::AWILLETO "Beat those heathen drums..." >
                  -<  Tip-toeing past Steve & Pat...   ;')   >-

>    Perry,
>    
>    Is this a truth!  Will the archetypes converse with me during my
>    dreams?
>    
>    T


Yes, they will. There are others in this conference more experienced
than I am in this area, and maybe they will hop in with their
insights, too.

One method of using the Tarot cards is called "pathworking." The
paths are found on a diagram from Hebrew tradition called the Tree
of Life. It looks something like this:


                               O
                              / \
                             O---O
                             |   |                             
                             O---O        n.b. There are 22 paths,
                             |\ /|             not all of them are
                             | O |             shown.
                             |/ \|
                             O---O
                              \ / 
                               O 
                               |
                               O

Each of the Os represents a "sephiroth;" a sphere of existence or
kingdom. The 22 lines or paths between the sephira correspond to the
22 major arcana (trumps) of the Tarot. Pathworking involves invoking
the appropriate archetype who then accompanies and advises you as
you travel down the path from one sephiroth to another. Each
archetype has a different perspective on reality and each has
something to teach you.

Pathworking is very experiential; learning comes through the senses
rather than through logic. I use the technique to explore my own
inner space.

Typically, I work in a relaxed, auto-hypnotic state rather than
while I'm asleep, although I have had various archetypes invade my
dreams (and one quite persistent trump who decided to invade my
waking reality...DIR/AUTHOR=DONHAM will turn up that story). Some
schools get quite elaborate in their methods of invocation and
closing, others just suggest comfortable shoes. There are also
commercial guided-meditation pathworking tapes that you can buy at
most new-age outlets.

I've just begun working with these images; my results so far have
been encouraging. I'm sure that I've oversimplified and left things
out of this brief description...again, maybe one of the more
experienced pathworkers can fill in the gaps.

Contact me offline if you'd like to talk about this in more detail.

Perry

>dreams (and one quite persistent trump who decided to invade my
>waking reality...DIR/AUTHOR=DONHAM will turn up that story). Some

Er, I just looked and couldn't find the Tale of the Troublesome Trump...
drop me a line and I'll tell all.

Perry

    RE: <.250+1>
    
    Perry,
    
    (Tried to vaxMail ya, but I keep getting errors -- "MRED not reachable".)
     
    Now I understand a little bit more about the paths.
                                                                            
    I read last night in "The Book of Thoth", about the Hebrew Tree
    of Life, how the nodes/seriphaths are spheres and have a corresponding
    number: 0 - 10; how the 22 paths that connect some of the nodes
    are attributed the letters of the Hebrew alphabet.  It also told
    of how the Court cards are attributed to the tetragammaton and to
    the four elements: Fire, Air, Water, Earth.
    
    I also found that my sign is attributed to the major Arcana: Art,
    and to the court card: Prince of Wands.
    
    This book had a lot to tell.  Are there others I should consult?
    
    BTW, The local mataphysical bookstore I frequent, "The Brotherhood
    of Life", doesn't carry any pathworking tapes.  In fact, they were
    aghast that there was such a thing.
    
    Besides, I prefer books.
    
    Tony

    I have a question about a reading I did yesterday. I use the Rider
    deck and the celtic cross to read. I also use a blank card in the
    deck.  My assumption of when this card comes about in a reading
    that it can represent vagueness. It came up in her possible future
    and I was definately confused by it.  Any comments or suggestions
    as to how I might interpret this.  
    
    Denise
    

re: < Note 3.253 by SHARE::DHURLEY >

What were the other cards in the spread?

Perry

    The other cards were the Ace of Pentacles, 7 of Wands, 8 of Pent
    reversed, 3 of wands reversed, Knight of Pent, The hanged man, 2
    of Pent reversed,  the Emperor, and the 2 of cups reversed.
    
    Denise

    
    
    	When the previous reply mentioned the Ace of Pentacles,
    	it reminded me of a reading that a friend of mine did
    	way back when...
    
    	She said that a blond would be a dominant man in my 
    	life and I just realized that my boyfriend of two years
    	is a blond...
    
    	Tigg~~  (who's now trying to remember the rest of the reading!!)

    I have recently acquired a Voyager deck and wonder if anyone else
    has worked with it, and their findings and feelings.  It seems to
    want to be read "right side up" only.  It also seems to be more
    of a meditation tool - has anyone tried readings with it?  Any feedback
    or suggestions most welcome...
    
    DeBanne, who_is_only_temporarily_at_Digital
    

    
    Yes, this deck has incredible energy.  It certainly got my attention.
    Several of them were on a table (just a incoming stock table not
    even a sales table)  I picked one up & knew I had to had to have this
    deck even before seeing it.  The energy was so stong, clear and
    clean.  When I did look at the images the energy was even more astounding.  
    
    After cleaning the deck (smudging) I attempted to season it by sleeping
    with it (no jokes now!).  I absolutely could not sleep, it felt
    like I had taken a handful of uppers.  I finally had to put them
    in a drawer near the bed.
        
    Even today the energy is strong.  I find my readings are very good
    with this deck but I do not do very many readings for other people
    with it.  I have to be extremely centered and have the tendency to get lost
    in what I'm being shown.  therefore I would say it is a good meditation
    or journeying tool.  Have used it for myself with great results.
    
    As far as reading it "right side up".  Yes, it tends to want to
    be read right side up for me also.  Sometimes when encountering
    a reversed card, I ask it how it wants to be read (or I just know)
    
    Also reversed cards can generally be read as this type of energy
    (courage for example) is being blocked.  You can look for the reason
    this energy is being blocked in the surrounding cards or expand the
    reading by either drawing another card to symbolize the reason or
    doing another spread.  That depends on a few factors, the chief
    being how serious is the blockage?  Is it the reason for the problem
    or just a minor inconvenience?  Learn to let intuition be your guide
    when reading cards.  This will expand this sense in other areas
    of your life also.

    I got the opportunity to have the creator of the cards, James Wanless,
    show me how he does readings and also several other layouts.  He is
    very informal in readings.  Will sometimes start with the whole self 
    mandala (given in the booklet that came with the cards) and then
    narrows what area to work on.  The client and reader would discuss
    what the aspects of the problem are, what the obstacles are, what
    would help make the decision, what actions to take for the best
    result and the best result.  He uses 1 of 2 methods for this reading.
    
    One method is to design a layout so that you have assigned places
    for each question or area, shuffle the cards as you normally would do 
    and start laying out the cards - 1 for each question.  

    The other method is to shuffle the cards, fan out the deck and draw
    a card for each question/area.  This one is the one he uses the
    most.
    
    Either one of these methods can be used with other decks successfully.
    
    Wanless has alot of other related projects and has done alot of
    work with designing layouts and study material.  Also has written
    a workbook on the Toth deck.
    
    
jayna
    

    Thank you so much.  Your findings confirm many of my "intuitings".
     I like the idea of the reversed cards sumbolizing a blockage. 
    That seems to "click".  I, too, had troubles sleeping with my
    cards...no jokes!...until I realized that perhaps I was fighting
    them.  Not a wonderful way to start a relationship, huh?  Now, when
    I have them under my pillow, I let them lead the way in my dream
    work, and boy, I understand why they call them "Voyager"! ;-). 
    Wonderful, but SO intense.
    
    I would be so grateful if you could give me references to the
    originator's other projects...I would love to follow some of his
    other paths of exploration.
    
    Thank you.
    
    DeBanne, who_is_still_here_temporarily
      

    
    
    	Sorry to not have responded sooner but I've been away.  The
    booklet that came with the Voyager set has a list of projects that
    Wanless is involved in.  He also mails out a couple page flyer on
    new products and trips (they went to Bali last year).  The flyer
    is called "The Symbolist".  If you would like to request a copy,
    the address of Merill-West Publishing (his publishing company) is in 
    the back of the booklet.

    
    jayna

    I am curious about the readings from different decks. If someone was to
    do a reading for an individual from a Rider-Waite deck and immediately
    after did a reading for the same person using the Thoth deck how
    similar or disimilar would the readings be?
    
    Pat
    
    

    I am looking for a good reader in my area (Maynard & proximity).  I had
    the cards read at the House of Zodiac not too long ago and was not
    pleased at all.  I did not care for the person, his appearance, his
    mannerisms, his speech, he totally turned me off, my daughter felt the
    same way.  There used to be a fellow named Dave, he was really good but
    he doesn't work there anymore.
    
    Also, I do not like to ask specific questions.  I like the reader to
    tell me what he/she sees and then determine how close he/she comes to
    the truth.
    
    Using the "Yellow Pages" or ads in the newspapers does not appeal to
    me, I see those as risky.
    
    Pat
    

    
    Who told you Dave was not there anymore?
    Last I heard he was still there.
    Also, are talking about Dean?
    
    
    If you would like to try a very good reader, I know of one which is
    quite good in my opinion.  She is in hudson, and you can call and make 
    an appointment by calling (508) 562-4852 and asking for Catalyia.

    Dave

    Marcia - Your theories about the astrology and our place in it and how
    it would effect the chose of cards.  I am going to buy a few books and
    a set of cards, I will feel the cards as suggested but based on my BD
    would you suggest certain cards. 
    
    Born, Saturday, 8:00 p.m. August 29, 1929 (practically ancient, that
    should be good) .  Your input would be appreciated.
    
    Pat
    

    What is your place of birth, Pat?
    
    Marcia

    Hi, I was born in Roxbury, MA - what would the place have to do with
    it?
    You can see how much I know about astrology.
    
    Pat
    

    The place one draws one's first breath is of extreme importance for the
    casting of a person's horoscope: it is from this information that the
    astrologer sets up the whole special chart that is unique to that
    person.  Knowing one's date of birth can generally tell one what one's
    Sun Sign is, and, if you have access to the planetary tables called
    ephemerides, the approximate positions of all the other planets in the
    signs of the Zodiac.  Knowing the time and place tells one the exact
    degree and minute of the Zodiac in which each planet is placed, where
    they are located in the horoscope, and which sign is one's Rising Sign.
    
    Marcia

    I know this is continuing a discussion non-related to the base title,
    but, this thought just occurred to me.  
    
    I would think that where one was conceived would carry more
    significance for casting an astrology chart.   If you look at it
    from the viewpoint that we're on this earth from the moment of
    conception, what does it matter where you are when you separate
    from your mother's womb?   Is it really where you draw your first
    breath that is the determining factor?  
    
    By the way, Marcia cast my chart according to where I drew my first
    breath ;-) ...and it was wonderfully significant and right-on.
    
    Thanks, Marcia!
    
    Karen

    The ideas on this are acutally in the replies to an astrology note I
    wrote (268? the exact number escapes me...).  But briefly: The first
    breath is considered the significant "starting point" because it
    represents the person's first act to initiate existence as an
    independent entity on this plane.  Prior to that, one's life is tied to
    the life of the mother.
    
    And it's also true that the first breath is observable, while the
    moment of conception is not.  Also not observable, or even knowable, is
    when the soul enters the body.  The vehicle is certainly "here" from
    the moment of conception; but is the vehicle occupied?  No one yet
    knows... 
    
    Marcia

    Marcia,
    
    Just fyi re: the question on when a soul enters a body...
    
    I attended a six month course recently entitled the "Journey of the Soul"
    (which was fascinating and could be the topic of several notes), and
    two weeks dealt with the issue of incarnation and conception, and the
    above question.
    
    This was the basic premise: when a soul has made the journey from the 
    higher mental plane to the astral level, (the last stop before the
    physical), it begins to build an etheric body around itself, which will 
    be an exact duplicate of the physical body that will grow inside the
    mother.  
    
    Conception can occur without a soul waiting to "move in", but the 
    fertilized egg would slough off within a short time during a subsequent
    menstrual cycle.  
    
    A conception that occurs and continues to develop most often has a soul 
    connected to it from the very beginning, and supposedly this soul moves 
    in gradually, spending more of its time on the astral level making final 
    preparations for its new physical life.
    
    It sounded reasonable to me, in the sense that I know if I were making 
    a major decision in my life, like who my parents were going to be and
    what circumstances I wanted to be born into, I would want to gradually 
    phase into it too, if I could, and check and re-check my plans...!  
    
    Anyway, just food for thought.
    
    - Karen
    
    
    
    
    

    
    
    That's what's so good about this file; there's a lot of food for
    thought here!  The idea of a soul sort of hanging out on the astral
    plane while it slowly integrates itself with its new physical body
    is indeed interesting.  
    
    It's fun putting the pieces (of ideas and knowledge) together and
    coming up with different NEW pieces.  Kind of like a giant Leggos
    set.  
    
    So, thanks, Karen and Marcia, for your replies (.269 & .270) which
    have contributed more pieces to my Leggo set!  I think, a red one
    and a white one  ;-)  .
    
    Karen

    
    Just to get off the track slightly,
    
    I'm thinking of taking a Tarot Carding Reading class being
    offered by Assabet Valley Regional Vocation Night School,
    in Marlboro, MA.  Has anyone taken this class and is it
    worth it?
    
    Thanks
    
    Kathi
    

    Hi Marcia,
    
    Would you please do a chart for me.  My name is Mary-Jean,
    my birth date is May 26, 1966 and I was born in Bayshore,
    NY on Long Island at 9:30 in the morning.  If there is any
    thing else you would need let me know and I'll send it
    tommorrow night (I work second shift).  Thank you very
    much.

    Marcia, would you believe I gave you the wrong date for my birthdate
    (printer's devil).  It is the 9th not the 29th.  I can't believe I did
    that, I have read and reread that note and I just this minute noticed
    it, is there some special significance to that do you think?  I know 
    their is a lot of work involved so you can forget it, it was my own ???
    

    Marica, I know that this file keeps you plenty busy, however, if you 
    could squeeze in another request....I would deeply appreiciate it if
    you could do my chart.  I was born on August 1, 1952  at 3:30 am in 
    Lynn, MA.  If you need more information, please let me know, and I'll
    send it to you immediately.  Thank you in advance!
    
    Dave A.
    

    Back to the Tarot!  I have two questions for you Tarot
    aficionados--one from ignorance, the second from curiosity.
    
    (1) How do you establish a specific timeframe for the 
    occurrence of events (if indeed you do at all)?  Seems 
    as though all the best readers I've been to can do it.
    Also, I've only seen it done using the Celtic Cross--does
    anyone have experience using a different layout?
    
    (2) How do you interpret the court cards?  I've come across
    lots of ways--from actual people, to sides of the reader's
    personality, to different states of mind, to depends on the
    reading, to who knows what else.  I'm slowly coming to grips 
    with this questions myself; just curious as to what other do.
    
    Many thanks for any help.
    
    Nancy
    

RE: .276 (Nancy)
    
    1) Generally I do not.  As always, if intuition or context suggests
    a timeframe then I'll mention it.  Part (all?) of tarot is the
    opportunity it provides for intuition.
    
    2) They *are* tough, especially for beginners, but sometimes even for
    experts.  Essentially, they represent "people", but depending on the
    context, those people may be personifications: of some aspect of the
    queriant's personality, of a group.  Also the people (when it is an
    actual person) may fit the cards description only in relation to the
    role they are playing in the particular situation being dealt with.  How
    do you tell how to interpret in a particular reading?  By context or
    by intuition.  Frequently in a reading, I'll skip over a court card
    until I've read more of the pattern and therefore have more context
    within which to interpret it.
    
    The key to a good tarot reading is making the reading a single whole --
    more than the simple sum of its parts.  Every card, not just the court
    cards, can only be accurately interpretted in relationship to the
    other cards in the spread.  If the reading doesn't tell a coherent
    story, but only consists of a series of unrelated pieces, you've missed
    part or all of the interpretation.
    
    While I'm at it, here is another piece of related advice.
    
    	What cards are *not* in the spread are also part of the reading.
    
    In particular, when you have interpretted a particular card, ask
    yourself if another card still in the pack wouldn't have said the same
    thing or almost the same thing.  If there is such a card, ask yourself
    why the card which actually appeared was more appropriate.
    
    				Topher

    Re: .276 Nancy

>    (1) How do you establish a specific timeframe for the 
>    occurrence of events (if indeed you do at all)?  Seems

    A possibility would be to do an additional reading the
    sole aim of which would be to determine the time frame.
    You 'set up' the parameters before you do the spread.
    For example, you could do a simple three-card spread in
    which the first card relates to a week from now, the
    second a period of a month and the third a year. Or
    whatever you need. Be creative. As Topher says intuition
    is very important.

    Alternatively, you could add another 'divination' method
    to your reading. Perhaps using a pendulum to home in on
    a particular time.

    For me, once you feel that it is possible to find out
    things which are conventionally regarded as unknowable then
    use the method which works.

John.

    
    Hi I've been reading for quite some time and very rarely add an
    entry but I have a question.
    
     My wife had a Tarot card reading and was told that within six
    months she would be pregnant with twins. We would come into some
    money and my job would take me far away. 
    
    I am not trying to be a skeptic but how often are these people right,and
    Should I start stocking up on Pampers? 
    
                                        Walt

    "How often these people are right"?  There's no such thing as a
    homogenous "these people".  Some readers are very event-oriented in
    their predictions (like this reader) - and some are correct and some
    are not.  If the events actually occur or don't occur, you've learned
    something about this particular reader's skills but not about all
    reader's skills in general.  
    
    The Tarot is a vastly complex set of visual symbols that can be
    interpreted in countless ways.  If your wife had written down the cards
    that were laid out for the reading, and this "spread" of cards was
    laid before a number of different readers, you could get just as many
    different interpretations.
    
    Marcia

    Nancy - 
    
    I find that I have a hard time with timing in my readings.  Certain
    numbers will come to mind while doing a "timing" reading but the
    qualifier of that number is usually pretty vague to me.  I remember
    telling an S.O. once that he would be leaving his job within 3 weeks. 
    3 DAYS later he was laid off.  I admit it's one of my short comings in
    the readings.
    
    I think it depends on the reader.  Some people are tuned into time and
    others are not.  As a reader I find that it helps to have a good
    perspective on your own strengths and weaknesses and to be up front
    with your clients about it.
    
    FWIW - 
    
    Nanci

Thanks for the responses.  

re: .277

Topher, could you explain how intuition or context might 
suggest a timeframe?  Sorry to belabor the issue, but time
does often seem to be an important element in a reading and 
any insights would be greatly appreciated.  (You'd think after 
10 years, I would have figured out some workable process on 
my own, but ...)

p.s. I am especially grateful for the reminder to look at what 
cards are *not* in the reading.  I had heard/read that advice 
before and conveniently forgot it.

re: .278

I like your three-card solution, John, and plan on testing it
out.  It's nice and simple; wish I'd thought of it!

re: .281

Nanci, I'm glad to know there's someone else out there who's
a little bit bothered by the timing issue.  I went and dug 
out the only reference on the subject I've ever seen; maybe it
will be of some help to you.  It's for timing events using 
the Celtic Cross and both Arcanas.  

    Lay out the cards, then go backwards through the 
    spread until you come to a numbered Minor Arcana 
    card.  Years are indicated by Pentacles, months by 
    Swords, weeks by Rods, and days by Cups (but only 
    if next to a Pentacle).

It's a nice little "formula," isn't it?  I'm testing it out,
but haven't come to any conclusions yet.

More thoughts on timing are always welcome.

Cheers,
Nancy

    I use the Native American Tarot Deck and the spread that I use is the
    Medicine Wheel.  The cards are layed out in seasons. Fall, Winter,
    Spring, and Summer and I read them as the year to come I also suggest
    that the seasons are viewed as when you percieved seasons to start and
    finish.
    
    Has anyone else used this deck and if so what are your impressions.
    
    Denise 

RE: .282 (Nancy)
    
    Well the simplest answer is that intuition is just intuition --
    sometimes while reading an impression of time (for me at least only
    a rough one) will come to me and I'll mention it.  I won't have any
    logical justification for it, its just there.  Depending on how strong
    a feeling I have I will generally qualify such a feeling (e.g., "I'm not
    sure about this but, I think this took place many years ago, and you
    are just feeling the affects").
    
    I can be a bit more specific though.  The cross part of the celtic
    cross has a distinct time ordering.  The central cards are the
    present, the card below is the "more distant" past, the card to the
    left (behind) is the "recent" past, the card above is the potential
    (generally the near) future, while the card to the right (ahead) is the
    "more distant" future.  What is lacking here is a "time frame".  Is
    "recent" past that morning or two years before?  (This position is
    particularly tricky in my experience, because the change represented by
    this position may not yet be something that the querant is aware of and
    so it may act as a card of the "very near future" instead of a card
    of the recent past.)  As the story told by the cards unfolds, one may
    get an intuition of time for a particular card, from which one may
    infer time frame and then apply that via context to other cards, or one
    may simply discover one has a feeling as to whether this is an
    "immediate" problem or a "long-term" one, and hence the time frame
    for the entire thing.
    
    One hint, a lot of major arcana *tends* to imply a more long-term
    problem, but that is far from a hard and fast rule.  The problem being
    dealt with may be short-term but may be a consequence of more long
    term personal "forces", which would give a distorted view of when
    specific "events" symbolized take place.  I never rely on this,
    therefore, but only use it to "modify" my confidence in an intuition.
    
    So my advice is, as always with the Tarot -- go with the flow.  In part
    my interest in the Tarot is in the practice it gives me in integrating
    the analytic with the intuitive.
    
    						Topher
    

    Denise, .283
    
    I also use the Native American Medicine Cards for myself and recently
    in my healing work with others.  
    
    When working with others, I oftentimes receive an image 
    of one of the cards, (like the dragonfly for example), and when 
    we refer back to its meaning in the Medicine Card book, find that 
    it contains a relevant message for the person.
    
    I have found various divination tools helpful, (tarot, I Ching...), 
    but this is the first one that I feel very drawn to exploring much
    more deeply.  In fact, there is an evening presentation and all day
    workshop at Interface in Watertown, MA tonite (11/10) and tomorrow,
    on the Medicine Cards, being given by David Carson, who co-authored 
    the book with Jamie Sams.  I will be attending both.
    
    The thing I most like about the Medicine Cards is that they
    renew a magical connection to nature for me, in particular, to 
    the animal kingdom which I so often immersed myself in as a child.  
    
    It feels good.  I've come home again...
    Karen
     

    Hi Karen,
    
    My daughter, Kendra - age 11, is also very attracted to the Medicine
    Cards.  In fact, she decided last year that when it comes time to do
    her sixth grade science project this Spring, she will base it on the 
    cards.  My teenage son on the other hand was drawn to and bought the
    Crowley deck for himself.
    
    Ro
    

    Hi Ro! .-1
    
    Wow, this young lady is onto something!  Bringing the Medicine Cards
    in as a *science project*?   She's a lady riding the crest of a
    growing edge -- uniting "traditional" science with intuitive ways
    of knowing.  Wonderful!!!  
    
    Karen
    

    Yes Karen, she's always been keenly aware of what was happening around
    her - seen and unseen.  Hmmm, I guess she 'chose' (as Jeff Lackey once
    commented that we do usually pick our own names) the right name for
    herself - Kendra which means the 'knowing' or 'understanding' woman.
    
    Ro
    

    Hi Karen,
    
    How was the lecture and workshop given by David Carson on the Medicine
    Cards?  I had hoped to attend, but couldn't.  Geeze, I finally became
    a member of Interface a few months ago and haven't had the time to 
    attend a single event since!!!
    
    Curious,
    
    Ro
    

    Ro,
    
    The workshop was good.  I only wish there had been fewer people (there
    were about 30 or so) and it took a long time to do some of the
    exercises David Carson was giving.  We worked quite a bit on balancing
    male/female energy as this in his opinion is the basic energy flow that
    sources divination work.  
    
    We didn't explore the technical aspects of the Medicine Cards, which I
    would have liked, but all in all it was a good workshop.
    
    There are other good ones coming up.  Hope you have a chance to get to
    Interface soon.
    
    Karen
    

    Do any of you know of any Tarot study groups/workshops in the
    Chelmsford/Westford/Littleton MA area ...or are any of you interested
    in forming one?
     
    
    Linda  

    HI LINDA,
    
    I'D BE INTERESTED IN FORMING A STUDY GROUP/WORKSHOP ABOUT TAROT
    AND PSYCHIC STUFF.  I LIVE IN STOW.  I RECENTLY JUST COMPLETED TAKING
    A 10 WEEK COURSE IN THE TAROT AND I AM FACINATED BY THE INFORMATION
    I'VE ALREADY BEEN ABLE TO OBTAIN FROM MY READINGS.
    YOU CAN GIVE ME A CALL AT 296-3444.
    
    DEB
    

    In my dealing with the occult, the most reasonable conclusion I have
    reached is that, yes, these scenarios are predetermined, but because 
    we have free will, we can either go to the left or right or we can
    let it hit us square in the face.

    I have friends that use tarot cards.  I've been trying to read my
    own lately.
    
    I use it only as a guide post.  A guide post on my current path.
    I have found that if my attitude changes slightly so will the predicted
    result.
    
    I enjoy finding out how my attitude effects the results in my life.
    Every day I learn something new about me.  I'm growing and improving
    my life.  The tarots are just a fun way of checking my path.  I
    don't put too much stock in their results.  It really doesn't take
    much to change lifes outcome.
    
    Rita
    

    I've been an avid reader of this file....I haven't participated
    because I don't feel that I am all that well informed.
    I enjoy reading this file and find it very informative.
    
    I am fascinated by tarot cards and the idea that you can
    be, I want to keep this as light as possible, guided by
    the cards one choses.  I have been trying to read my own 
    cards but and have hit the nail on the head a few times 
    which makes me nervous since I really haven't had time....
    faithfully to study on the tarot.  I would really like the
    name of good tarot reader so I can see  what they say.
    
    Anna
                                                           

    
    Anna,
    
    Being uninformed has never stopped me....:-)
    
    guy

RE: .296 (guy)
    
    Why the smiley-face, guy?
    
    					Topher

    
    ....ignorance is bliss....

    Does any of you know/have experience with the deck "1JJ"?????
    
    Billie

    ... seems like nobody has Billie ...
    
    don't give up though  -  just trust in yourself :-)
    
    Bussi,
    Karin

I am in search of a place that will vend me an Amazon Tarot deck. Avenues I
(and my friends) have tried, to no avail, include: various bookstores (the
Unicorn Bookstore, around Cambridge MA; in Provincetown MA; Shambala in
Berkeley CA), sending mail to the contact address for the dec given in Tarot
For Yourself (see .56 for more info) (it disappeared into the ozone; I sent it
the first week in May).

I do have one last potential avenue I'll take if no one here can help me: I
know a person I believe can put me into contact with one of the artists. It's a
bit of a long shot though. Can you help me?
	Mez

    Hmmm.  The only time I ever saw one was at a W.I.T.C.H. lecture.
    Why don't you call them and ask?
    
    							Ann B.

Yeah Ann, that's how I'll find out. I have Krystyna's address (she's the woman
who runs and hosts them); I'll be sending her a note on how to reach Billie
Potts if I don't get anything here.
	Mez

    I don't have my catalog with me but if I remember correctly the
    Amazon Tarot may be one of those distributed by U.S. Games in CT.
    I have their number at home and will bring it in if you are interested.
    I was amazed at the number of decks they offer. They were also able
    to supply some decks that don't appear in their catalog.
    
    What's a W.I.T.C.H. lecture?
    
    Linda
    

    It's a radical feminist lecture sponsored by the Wild Independent
    Thinking Crones and Hags of Cambridge, Mass.  I went to a few of
    the lectures last year, most of them the year before, but none
    this year -- because of my schedule *sniff*.
    
    						Ann B.

    Oh man!!!  I should belong to an organization with a GREAT name like
    that. :-)  I love it!
    
    Mary

    Mez,
    
    Re: 302.  I checked the U.S Games catalog and found that I was
    confusing the Amazon Tarot (which I didn't see listed) with the Mayan
    Tarot( which they do sell along with the companion book The Flight of
    the Feathered Serpent).
    
    You might want to check The Pyramid Bookstore in Salem, Ma. They
    carry a large assortment of Tarot cards. I believe they do mail
    order but they have several open sample Tarot decks in the store.
    If they don't have the Amazon Tarot in stock perhaps they could
    suggest a scource.
    
    Most of the stores in this (New England) area seem to carry the
    cards distributed by U.S. Games.  There is a store in New York called
    The Magickal Childe which carries these along with several others.
    Sorry, I don't know their number or address but perhaps someone
    out there is familiar with them?
    
    Keep looking. It took months when I was trying to find The Tarot of the
    Wicca but I finally did and it was worth the effort. Good luck in
    your search.
    
    Linda
                             

Thanx Linda. If anyone has address for The Pyramid Bookstore in Salem, MA, and
The Magickal Childe in NY, I'd like them (or their phone number). I've heard
rumor that only the artists of this deck can/will sell it (and they're sure
making it hard to take my money!).

On WITCH: I or someone else usually posts the schedule of lectures in
womannotes. The lectures start around late Feb, and continue through early May,
once a week at a regular time and place. I believe the folks at Crone's Harvest
in Jamaica Plains MA can put you on the mailing list.
	Mez

    
    The address for Pyramid Books:
    
    	Pyramid Books
    	214 Derby Street
    	Salem, MA 01970
    
    	Store# 508-745-7171	Catalog # 508-744-6261
    
    Roslyn

    
                In March of 1989 I dealt my first tarot spread- it was 
    fairly accurate. Since then I've been reading for myself once a week.
    I took the suggestion in replys 3.91 and 3.118 to keep a tarot journal.
    I also adopted the three card spread outlined in note 3.91 ( thank you
    NATASH::BUTCHART ). This is how it works. I asked the same quastion 
    each week, "What is the state of my affairs?" while doing the standard
    shuffle and cut routine. I then dealt the three cards- Significator
    (internal urges), Cover (present outward situation), Cross (potential
    problems/trials). I then recorded each card in my journal leaving space
    between each one so that I could write my reactions/intuitions/inter-
    pritations in the diary also. Because I am a novice I used the Rider-
    wayte deck and the Eden Grey companion book throughout the year. What 
    follows is the culmination of a years worth of "data" regarding my 
    readings. 
    
       For the twelve month period from March of `89 till March of `90
    cards
    of the Major Arcana came up 37 times. Cards of the Minor Arcana ap-
    peared 111 times. This equals 148 cards in that time period for an 
    average of 3.89 cards per reading (on special ocations I dealt a 
    standard ten card lay-out), 3.16 readings per month (sometimes I 
    skipped a week and once got a "no go" from my pendulum). 59.45% of 
    all the cards had a natural placment, 40.54% had a reversed placment,
    the ratio of natural to reversed is 1.466 : 1. 
    
          The most frequent cards of the Major Arcana in the natural 
    placment were IX, XVI. The most frequent cards of the Major Arcana in 
    the reversed placment were VIII, XIV. The Major Arcana card to appear
    the most regardless of placment was VIII.
    
          The most frequent cards by suit in the deck: 
    
               swords       wands        cups        pentacles
natural          2          knight        4              2
reversed    ace,knight     7,king      2,10,knights  4,6,page,queen
total        ace,2           king      ace,4,page     2,6,queen
    
    the two cards which turned up the most averall were the 
    ace and two of swords. The most frequent suit in the
    natural position was cups, reversed position pentacles,
    most frequent suits overall cups and pentacles.
    another interesting note (3.277) suggested noting which 
    cards do not show up in a reading. For me these cards were
    Major Arcana II,X,XIX; swords=4,7,king; wands=ace,4,6; 
    cups=3,5; pentacles=8.
    
              The year 1989 to 1990 was a year of conflict
    for me- old ideas vs. new, breaking habits, starting 
   new relationships and working through old ones.
    
    
       comments of the readreship invited.
    
                         Later,
                          Mark               

    
    
                Just wanted to share my latest find- "Tarot for relation-
    ships." It was written by Joycelyn Almond and Keith Seddon and is pub-
    lished by The Aquarian Press (ISBN 0-85030-850-X). It is ment to be the
    companion book to the Norse Tarot deck designed and drawn by Clive 
    Barrett (ISBN not known), but I have gotten very good results using
    my Ryder-Waite deck.
    
                                  Later,
                                   Mark
    
    

    
    
                  I've just gotten another tarot deck- my fith one. Its 
    called _The_Cosmic_Tarot_ (ISBN not given) drawn by a West German 
    artist named Norbert Losche. I have the english vertion. The deck is 
    fully ilustrated (a plus for a novice like me). The colors used are 
    of a pastel hue which invite me to *read* the scenes on each card.
    The deck is somewhat smaller than my Ryder-Waite deck. I like this 
    because I sometimes have trouble shuffling the larger cards. The 
    cards themselves are plastic coated. This makes them much more durable
    and easy to clean ( one person I gave a reading to had lost her Band-
    Aid while shuffling and got blood on my R-W deck- its stained forever).
    The reason I baught this deck was because of the picture on the box-
    The Empress I believe- had such a dreamy "texture" to it that I was 
    drawn to it impulsively. The people in the scenes have a definate 
    forign look to them (I've never been to Europe). One card had on it
    a small globe. It looked odd to me. Of course, it was showing the 
    continent of Europe instead of the Americas. I am very satisfied with
    my new deck and use it nearly every week. I generaly use a horshoe
    spread (five cards) and the companion book noted in .312. I noticed 
    later that Pyramid Books in Salem, Mass. sells this deck. I got mine 
    at Mr. Paperback here in Augusta, Me.
    
    
                              Later,
                               Mark
    
     

    Hi Mark,
    
    Your new deck sounds quite interesting. I think I might go out and
    see if I can find it. I too had problems shuffling larger cards
    but I've solved that easily. I just put all the cards on the table
    and "stir" them with both hands - may not be elegant but works.
    
    Besides, I can assure you that we Europeans don't look very different
    from you Americans ;-)
    
    take care,
    Karin

    Karin - 
    
    I use the stirring method along with shuffling (my fingers are long so
    shuffling the larger decks is usually not a problem for me).  A thought
    that came out of your comment was putting all of the cards in a large
    bowl and literally stirring them with your hands.  You'd have to be
    careful not to bend them but this method might work too.
    
    Nanci

    Nanci,
    
    Yes! And I could also have the one I do the reading for just pick
    the cards right out of the bowl ...
    
    Karin
  

        I am now in pursuit of a change.
                                                        
        Part of  this  is  by  means of finding a new position within our
        company.  For advice I consulted my favorite deck.    The mode of
        this consultation was to gain perspective, to widen my sights and
        see  beyond  the  immediate  task  of finding a new job.  Thus  I
        reached for my Mythic Tarot.
                
        I consulted the cards  about  how  I should conduct myself during
        this change phase, and what  should I expect.  The outcome spread
        of a Celtic Cross follows:
        
             NO.        POSITION                CARD
             ---        --------                ----
              1         Significator            The Fool
              2         Crossing                2 of Swords
              3         Crowning                Empress
              4         Base of Matter          Temperance
              5         Past Influences         Hanged Man
              6         Forthcoming Influences  5 of Wands
              7         Where-1-Finds-1self     9 of Swords
              8         View of Others          The Tower
              9         Hopes & Fears           3 of Pentacles
             10         Final Outcome           8 of Cups
        
        My  question  to  this group of experts is, What should I make of
        the high number  of  Major  Arcana  present  in this spread.  The
        number of Swords is twice of any of the other Minor Arcana (also,
        none of these are Court Cards).
        
        My impression is that the high number of Majors tell me that this
        phase of change in my life  is  not  a light one, especially with
        The Fool as the Significator.  
        
        I'm relatively new to this Art of card reading, so  I implore the
        best  of you to respond here (or via mail  NAMBE::AWILLETO),  and
        share your impressions of this spread.          
                                                        
        Many thanks to you all.                         
        
        Anthony 

    Anthony - 
    
    You're right in terms of the significance of the Major Arcana cards. 
    They indicate that this particular issue is a major influence in your
    life.  I get the impression that this chnage will lead to shifts in all
    aspects of your life.  
    
    As far as the swords are concerned, since two ones is still only two I
    really don't think the swords carry a great deal of weight in this
    reading.  
    
    Since I don't have my cards here at work I can't really go into great
    depth as far as the reading goes.  I'll lay the reading out at home,
    though, and send you mail.
    
    Nanci

Does anyone know about the history of Tarot? Where did the cards come 
from? I've seen references to the gypsies as a possible source. Why are the
Major Arcana cards no longer part of our modern card deck? 

Dorian

    Re .319 (Dorian):

    A problem with the history of Tarot is that there are a lot of folk
    who, over the centuries, have added to its lore.

    Some people blame it on Gypsies (and where the Gypsies come from has
    been a subject for debate, too); some claim the tradition goes back to 
    Ancient Egypt.  The first identifiable cards were in Medieval Europe,
    and were used primarily for games rather than divination or meditation.

    One of the Major Arcana cards is in the current deck -- the Joker
    ("Joker" is a synonym, in one sense, of "Fool," the zeroth card in the
    Major Arcana).  Also in the suit cards, one is missing (the current
    Jack could represent either the Page or the Knight, but not both)
    per suit.

    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    
    Is anyone familiar with the Barbara Walker Tarot deck? Her images are
    very evocative of the suppressed feminine principle. Also, I came
    across a book she wrote in 1984, The Secrets of the Tarot: Origins,
    History, and Symbolism. As the book jacket says, Walker finds that
    "traces of long-suppressed Goddess worship abound in these cards,
    revealing amazing proof of the matriarchal roots of Tarot and crucial
    links between the cards and the vital dimensions of female sexuality."
    Some of the material she includes is also in her long earlier book, The
    Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets.
    
    Dorian
    

    I have been witness to a strange experience with tarot.
    
    The fool card was pulled 6 times in a row....{no markings, fairly
    new deck, eyes closed, shuffled between each pull}......
    
    I believe the odds are in the billions that this would happen, as
    i think the deck has 96 cards.....
    
    This is just the tip of the iceberg though.....I guess i'll find
    out when the time is right.....
    
    I just don't want to miss or discount anything at this point...I
    will be keeping anotebook as this was suggested to me.....
    
    Bruce {who is "on the wire"}

    You are on the path my friend.

    But don't forget to play, Brucie!
    
    Life is an adventure, full of wonder, to the Fool.
    
    Nanci

    i should probababally say that these cards were pulled by and for
    a very close friend of mine.....
    
    the first card ever pulled....the one i pulled was the page of
    pentaclesi believe....a justice and truth card....Tracie has been
    taking notes on the cards, {as she has been for about 10 years}....
    
    i feel a GREAT transition is in progress.....can't put my finger
    on it but i KNOW it will be there when it is time.....
    
    I know i will need questions answered and guideance, and i know
    that the right people will connect with me.
    
    Bruce

    Question: does anyone know the basis for wrapping a new deck in silk
    (as opposed to wool or linen)?
    
    I'm allergic to silk so I don't think that would be a good beginning
    for me...
    
    Virginia

    Virginia - 
    
    To me it's not necessary that the deck be wrapped in silk.  But it is
    important to wrap the deck in natural fibers.  Cotton, wool,
    linen...any of these will do.  It's the synthetic blends that I like to
    stay away from.  I also keep the wrapped deck in small woven baskets
    with lids and surround them with various crystals and stones.  
    
    Everybody has their own little quirks as far as their cards and
    readings go.  Do whatever feels "right" to you.
    
    Nanci

    I think it's probably related to the use of natural fibers
    to wrap magical instruments in general.  I've always felt that
    pure silk and pure cotton were best, but the most important thing
    I think is that you treat instruments with the care and respect
    that represents their value and meaning to your life.   If you 
    happened to have a special attraction to Dacron, I don't think the 
    cards would wither as a result.  :-)
    
    	todd

    Right, Todd.
    
    They probably wouldn't wither.  It's just hard to imagine anyone with a
    "thing" for Dacron!  :-)
    
    Nanci
    

    re: .329 
    	Well, if you worked in DuPont-land like I do, you'd meet a lot
    of people with odd fetishes for synthetics.  Don't knock it 'till
    you've tried it.  ;-)     If you're really sensitive to psychic
    energy, it might feel weird, I guess, but it's never bothered
    me.  I kinda like the feel of test tubes.  :-)

	From various Tarot books I've looked through it seems that wrapping
	the cards in silk when not in use is suggested because silk is
	supposed to insulate the deck from psychic energy (i.e., the deck
	is protected from "bad vibes").  I've also seen keeping the deck
	in a pine box suggested for the same reason.  I don't pretend to
	be any sort of expert, though . . . what I think is important is
	that the cards are handled and stored and used in a respectful
	manner and in such a way as to maximize their "attunement" to
	the owner, in other words, whatever seems "right" probably is
	OK so long as the deck is treated with respect.
 
	As an aside, this entire Tarot discussion is something I've found
	extremely interesting, I've thoroughly read through all the replies
	at least three or four times.  I never owned a Tarot deck until I
	had read through this entire topic, and I still consider myself a
	Tarot novice, but I have found most of my questions concerning
	Tarot answered in this conference or in one of the many books
	mentioned in this topic to the extent I've been able to locate
	these books.
 
	One thing (I think) I'd like to see are a bunch of specific spreads
	together with whatever the seeker's queries were, followed by dis-
	cussions of various folks' interpretations.  There are a few replies
	of this nature in this topic but not too many.  This would probably
	best be organized as an entirely new, separate topic.  The whole idea
	is along the lines of learning to interpret spreads.  Maybe this isn't
	such a great idea, I don't know, for sure there are lots of other ways
	to "practice"; no doubt there are a great many queries/spreads/under-
	lying situations inappropriate for "public scrutiny" here.  Anyway,
	just a thought.
 
	I did have one question of my own:  1JJ Swiss and Marseilles decks
	(and a number of others) have rather "plain" minor arcana, i.e.,
	the minor arcana exhibit only the number of "pips" of the various
	suits, rather than an illustration such as a Rider-Waiter minor
	arcanum.  With these "plain minor arcana" decks would one use
	anything other than the majors in readings?  If minors are used
	in readings, in what way would they be used?  The more or less
	"generic number/suit" meaning to the extent it fits into the
	query/situation?  This is what I would assume, but I've never
	found any discussion of this, most books seem to focus strictly
	on the majors or else entire decks which are "fully illustrated".
	Just thought I'd ask while I'm here.
							Bill
							Santa Clara, California
    

    
    
    re. .331
    
                    Bill,
                         I would be somewhat reluctant to enter specific
    spreads, but I have entered the results of many spreads (whole years
    worth) combined. The Questions and "answers" dealing with my practice 
    of tarot are sensitive and private. I will continue to enter my year 
    in review notes. An alternative I can offer is to have a discussion 
    on any card of the deck as it stands alone or how its position in a 
    particular spread may change its meaning.
    
             I have a few decks with plain pip cards. Depending upon which
    deck I use will determine my method of interpritation. For certain 
    decks I will rely on neumerology; other decks the traits (aspects) of 
    qabala. In all decks each pip card has infused in it the flavor of that
    suit.
    
    
                                   Later,
                                    Mark
    
    

RE: .331 (Bill)

    There are no absolutes in this, but the general view is that the
    meaning of the minor arcana come from their identity rather than the
    picture used to illustrate them -- as is true for the major arcana.
    Some view the meanings as merely a matter of "assignment", while the
    more systematically inclinded view the meanings as derived from
    numerlogical and essentially alchemical considerations.

    Waite chose to add mnemonic pictures to the minor arcana to aid the
    reader in remembering their meanings -- a custom which has since become
    commonplace.  It had been done before that, but was unusual.

    My personal opinion, now common but not at all traditional, is that the
    Tarot works in part through a complex interaction between the  reader,
    the queriant, the reader's knowledge of the cards meanings, and the
    queriant's reaction to the cards themselves.  That interaction is
    strengthened when there is something tangible and at least suggestive
    on the minor arcana for the queriant to react to.  For that reason,
    though I own "abstract minor arcana" decks for the artwork I don't use
    them for readings.

					Topher

    I haven't done readings for a while, but I remember getting
    very strong feelings at times from the pictures on the Major
    Arcana cards, relating to the query.  I used to meditate on the
    pictures to better understand them so that I could understand 
    their meaning intuitively when they came up.  I think I avoided
    the Minors for the most part because without a picture I personally
    had no compelling feelings about the meaning.   It seems like that
    would come with greater experience, since I could always create
    meaningful mental pictures associated with each card without needing
    an actual physical mnemonic, but for a 'beginner' I think there
    is *plenty* of depth in the Majors.  ANd a  lot easier to understand
    than something like I Ching, which usually is read without any kind
    of mnemonics except for the lines or whatever.
    
    	toddy

    For meditation exercises I agree entirely that the major arcana are
    more signigicant than the minor.  Once you know the cards, however,
    or if there are mnemonic pictures to help, you can quite effectively
    meditate on groups of minor arcana: all of one suit, all of one
    "value", all of the "male" suits (swords and wands), all of the "female"
    suits (pentacles and cups), all of 1-5, 6-10, or "face" cards, etc.
    Meditations on major arcana with one or more "flanking" minor arcana
    modulating the meaning also makes for interesting meditations.

    I find readings with only the major arcana tend to lack subtlty and
    fine distinctions.  The major arcana shout, the minor whisper.  The
    major arcana set the framework, the minor fill in the details.  Good
    readings need both.  (Keep in mind, as I said in an earlier note, that
    the cards which are not in the spread but could have been count also).

				    Topher

    re: .335, Interesting explanation.  Thanks !

    re: .335
    
    You're right about the significance of the Major and Minor Arcana goes. 
    For me the Majors don't shout, though.  They just deal with major
    issues.  The minors lend depth and meaning to the statement that the
    Majors are making in the reading.  However, I do find that certain
    decks tend to "shout" at me.  To me the Rider-Waite deck is very much a
    no-nonsense sort of deck.  It feels as if the characters in the cards
    do a lot of standing up, shaking their fist type shouting at me.  I use
    this particular deck when I need a good swift kick in the conciousness!
     :-)  The Morgan-Greer deck, on the other hand, feels much more gentle
    to me.  This is the one that I use for daily readings.  I've also been
    using the Herbal Tarot more often.  There's some great, rather unusual
    symbolism in it that adds a dimension that a lot of my other decks
    don't have.
    
    It all comes down to personal preference.  When doing a reading for
    someone else I'm getting into the habit of offering them a choice of
    decks so that they can choose their own symbolism.  If they have no
    preference, or it's a long distance reading I usually use the
    Morgan-Greer as my default deck because it's the one I'm most
    comfortable with.
    
    Nanci

    From the companion book to the deck I bought (Morgan-Greer) on "Storage
    of the Cards":
    
    "The cards must be protected against negative vibrations.  Store them
    wrapped in dark silk in a closed wooden container.  Never leave them
    out in the open or in the reach of curious hands.
    
    When you first buy a deck of Tarot cards, examine them carefully to
    familiarize yourself with them.  Be the only one who handles them.  The
    Tarot are powerful psychic images that must be used wisely.  When you
    are through with them, put them away.
    
    It will take a while to get used to the cards, but with serious effort
    you will begin to understand them and learn how to use them."
    
    My question - whose/what negative vibes are they talking about?  For
    awhile now I've noticed that the source of most of the negative energy
    in my life is me; is that going to affect my cards?
    
    By the way, I looked at the Crowley deck while I was shopping for my
    cards.  Based on what I've read in this note I expected the deck to
    jump up and shout "Take me home!" or "You fool!  Do you think you can
    handle this?" :-)   They didn't leave any kind of impression on me; I
    don't even remember any of the images, just some pinks and blues.  What
    WAS interesting; I had to ask the guy behind the counter if the store
    carried them because I didn't see them displayed.  They were in the
    back of the showcase, in the box face down with some little metal
    object on top of them (I couldn't make out what it was).  I got the
    impression that the people in the store don't have much love for that
    deck.
    
    Virginia

    re: Crowley deck,
    	From what I've seen, the only thing special about it is that
    it seems to use some of Crowleys's personal favorite correspondences
    as symbols, making it, I'd imagine, too complex and difficult to
    'feel' for someone who hasn't immersed themself in the 
    infamous "Frater Perdurabo's" system.  
    
    I was recently given a Golden Dawn deck, which has symbology
    somewhere between that of Morgan-Greer and that of Crowley-Thoth in
    complexity, it seems, with many Tree of Life-derived symbols.  If you're 
    into esoteric tarot, I'd think that one might be nice to try before 
    Crowley-Thoth.   Of course, I'm a novice at tarot stuff, so
    take that with a grain of sanctified salt.  :-)
    
    	As for why the shopkeeper would wince when you mention Crowley,
    I can only imagine ... ;-)
    
    I agree with your statement about the source of most negative energy,
    too, although it depends on your perspective I think.
    
    	Toddy	

    re. .331
    
    
                   Bill,
                       This past New Years Eve I read my cards. I used a
    horseshoe spread. Card one, present position; card two, present expect-
    ations; card three, whats not expected; card four, immediate future;
    card five, long term future. Of the five cards delt three were major
    arcana and the other two were aces. the thing I found most noteable 
    was that all five cards were reversed. 
    
                  Responsible comment invited.
    
                                      Later,
                                       Mark
    
    

    I'd like some input on the meaning of the 5 of Swords.
    
    I recently did a reading for myself using Dave McAllister's Yes/No
    spread (.26).  The answer card was the 5 of Swords.  The general
    question was whether I should make an appointment with a person on the
    following day.  My intuitive reading of the card was Yes (cause I wasn't
    quite sure what Dave meant by Dignified/Undignified in this case).  I
    used the Queen of Swords as the Significator and there were 2 other
    Sword cards in the spread.  There were also 3 major arcana cards (out
    of 9).  
    
    After looking over the cards I looked up the meanings.  Everything was
    pretty close to what I thought it meant, except the 5 of Swords
    interpretation said "Temporary victory leading to ultimate
    humiliation."  Hmm.  I don't place a lot of weight on the
    interpretations in the book I have because too many parts of the book
    seem to have been written by rote.  So I went to the bookstore a couple
    of days later and browsed through various books.  They all seemed to
    say generally the same thing: "Pyrrhic victory", "Empty victory",
    "Short term victory leading to disappointment."
    
    I read somewhere in this note that there was no such thing as a card
    that was inherently negative but this seems to come pretty close to it
    if all those interpretations are correct.  Does anyone else have any
    feedback?  (I've already had my meeting and thought it went pretty
    well.)
    
    Virginia

    Virginia - 
    
    The fives are not inherently negative althought they usually imply some
    kind of a loss.  Of course, the nuance of the card will change in any
    reading.  The five of swords, in general terms, usually implies some
    sort of mental devastation (maybe that word's too strong) has occurred
    and the clean-up operations have begun, i.e. a thought process or way
    of thinking about something has been wiped out and has not yet been
    replaced as the debris is still being removed to make way for the new.
    
    Nanci

     re: .341, Virginia,
    
    	These are right out of books, but they seemed appropriate to your 
    	situation :
    
    	"The Five of Swords signifies the boundaries and limitations
    	 we must all accept in certain of life's circumstances...
    	 a situation in which we are powerless to do anything
         but accept and work within the framework of that situation.
    	 Trying to change it would be as useful as beating your head
    	 against a brick wall."
    
    	reference the Myth of Apollo revealing the truth about
    	Agamemmnon's murder.  Apollo is put into an untenable
    	position and must bear it out.  
    
    		from The_Mythic_Tarot_Workbook by Juliet Sharman-Burke
    
    	"Some new twist to a problem makes an unexpected demand on one's
    	ability to think and communicate effectively ... the difficulty
    	which arises can be clearly seen  in retrospect as a stimulus
    	to breaking some deadlock or other."
    
    		from Personality_Divination_and_the_Tarot by Carl Sargent
    
    	hope that helps trigger something for you.
    
    		toddy

    The_Tarot_Path_to_Self_Development
    by Micheline Stuart
    from Shambhala Publications, 1977
    $7.95 U.S.
    
    Describes the journey of inner development as told by a sequence
    of the Major Arcana of the Tarot.  Provides one to three brief pages on
    each of the archetypal figures, describing what opportunities
    and challenges each may represent in life.   Based largely
    on the author's long experience with the Gurdjieff teaching.
    
    Forms a nice usable bridge, I think, between The Gurdjieff Work, the 
    Qabalistic Tarot (discussed in the Qabala note), and 
    inner development in general.
    
    From the foreward:
    
    "In approaching the Tarot, there are many levels of understanding..."
    
    "Amidst all the interpretations of the Tarot, the main theme hidden in
     it is the theory of man's inner evolution, given step by step, showing
     what one will encounter on the way and directing one where to go.
     All the traps and rewards are indicated.  Though the task appears
     simple, it should not be underestimated; it is arduous and the work
     relentless.  Only supreme effort couts.  Mildness and half-heartedness
     will not suffice.  At any time our efforts can turn into their
     opposites.  Therefore, once having awoken to our task we must *remain
     awake*."
    
    							todd

    Todd,
    Thanks for the welcom in the 'intro' note..... I'm havn't got around
    to adding a note 'till now.
    
    Anyhow in case you havn't come across the following chapter...  I'v
    found it interesting reading although I don't know enough on the 
    subject yet to weigh up its value as such.
    
    The book is A new model of the universe, by Ouspensky, the chapter
    is The tarot cards.  It deals with similar themes to which you have
    referred, but I think he expresses scepticism as to the orign of the
    cards coming from the Caballa.  
    
    Regards,
    Dave

    Hi Dave,
    	I gave up on the history of the Tarot images, myself.  There are
    	a number of possible influences I think, but it's really hard to pin it
    	down to a single one.  I mostly think of Cabala and Tarot 
    	(and Fourth_Way) as being possibly complementary studies in
    	self-awareness or evolutionary psychology, whatever their origins.
    
    	Thanks for the reference, I've never read New_Model.  
    	I really enjoy his In_Search_of_The_Miraculous, though.  He
    	briefly discusses how Gurdjieff's explanation of the Law_of_Three 
    	(active, passive, and neutralizing or transforming) helped to 
    	clarify his understanding of the Law_of_Four upon which a lot of
    	the Tarot symbology seems to be based (4 suits, 4 elements, and so
    	on).  
    
    	In the same work, P.D. adds an interesting G. quote about the meaning
    	of symbols, with reference to the Tarot ...
    
    		"Then there exists also a 'symbology of magic,' a
    		 'symbology of alchemy,' and a 'symbology of astrology,'
    		 as well as 'the symbols of the Tarot which unites them
    		 into one whole.  Each one of these systems can serve as
    		 a means for transmitting the idea of unity...
    		 ... symbols which are transposed into the words of
    		 ordinary language become rigid in them, they grow dim
    		 and very easily become 'their own opposites,' confining
    		 the meaning within narrow dogmatic frames, without
    		 giving it even the very relative freedom of a logical
    		 examination of a subject."
    
    				later,
    								todd

    Hello!  I don't read this conference, so I apologize in advance if this
    note is inappropriate, but I'm in need of some assistance and I was
    hoping someone here could point me in the right direction...
    
    I'm in need of a poster-sized reproduction of the "Universe" card from
    the Crowley Tarot deck.  Anyone have any idea where I could find one?
    
    Thanks in advance,
    D!

	You might try checking with Samuel Weiser's in New York.
	They used to sell a wall-calendar that had 12 of the
	Crowley trumps in it.  I don't know if they're still
	selling them.

	You might also check with another shop in New York called
	The Magickal Childe.  They have lots of odds 'n ends...

	Art

    Film develping stores frequently have a service where they turn
    snapshots into posters.  You might see if any in your area would be
    willing/able to do so in full color from something in non-standard
    proportions.

				    Topher

    I'm glad you aren't going to hang up real cards.
    
    I recently was at a restaurant which had four Crowley trumps framed
    and hung on a wall in their pub.  I felt very sorry and scared about
    seeing that.  Considering how much I respect and consult the cards,
    I was disturbed to see them imprisoned where they can't be used.
                                    
    Tony
    
    decoupage
                                
                                    

    They were probably using them as a talisman.
    
    mary

>    They were probably using them as a talisman.
    
    	Or as emergency lighting.
    
    					todd

	Do you remember which four trumps they were ?

	~art

    Sorry, I don't remember which they were.
    
    But that's how that deck responds with me.  In fact, I used to have
    a Crowley deck and the outcome of any readings with it was very
    confused.  So, naturally I perferred my Mythic and Egyptian decks.
    
    I suppose the Crowleys sense this so when I tried to remember which
    cards were on the hanging, I become blank.
    
    Go figure...

         HERE THEY ARE:
        
        
                +-------------------------------+
                |               |               |
                |  KNIGHT       |     ACE       |
                |    OF         |      OF       |
                |  SWORDS       |    SWORDS     |
                |               |               |
                +---------------+---------------+
                |               |               |
                |    THE        |    QUEEN      |
                |               |      OF       |
                |    MOON       |    SWORDS     |
                |               |               |
                +-------------------------------+
        

    I am looking for someone in the MRO area to do a reading for me...I
    need some assistance/advise from a peer.......please contact me offline
    for arrangements...
    
    thanks,
    
    denise
    
    

    
    	What do others generally use for an "age" factor in distinguishing
    	between the KNIGHT or the KING when determining a significator
    	card for readings? I know that the PAGES are children or young
    	men/women but how do you determine if a young, mature man is
    	the KNIGHT or KING? 
    
    	I find myself using my own age as a factor, anyone being younger
    	than me is the KNIGHT, older the KING, but don't quite feel
    	right about this. 
    
    	I'm curious to know what others use for methods of determination.
    
    

    I usually use a mental majority, or even their maturity on a subject. 
    On the whole, however, I would say that the page cutoff age is anywhere
    from late teens to mid/late twenties, and the knight to king switch
    somewhere between mid 30's to mid 40's.  Who knows, maybe the person
    really never develops emotionally past the Knight, and even a 60 year
    old may be best represented by the Knight.
    
    When I first started using the cards, I used physical age more than I
    do now; when doing a reading these days, I don't pick a significator 
    card, I let the reading show me which is the significator card.  It can
    vary from issue to issue, day to day, etc.  In one aspect, a person may
    be the page of cups, in another, the king of wands.  When starting out,
    I guess choosing one is helpful, but after awhile (for me) it got in
    the way.
    
    Beth

Beth - 

I agree with you about the use of significator cards.  I don't like 
to pick them ahead of time because that tends to limit the 
reading too much.  I've never focused in on chronological age
in regards to the Court cards.  I always felt that they represented
maturity rather than age.  The Pages are students, eager, headstrong,
sometimes bumbling out of ignorance.  The Knights have enough
education, maturity to make them dangerous.  They tend to think
they have all the answers and will try to resolve conflict situations
by going in swinging rather than taking a more considered, gentle
approach.  Queens have reached a sort of pinnacle of maturity in
their suit.  They have reached the goal and can smile benevolently
on the situation secure in the knowledge that she knows who she is
and what she wants...and can have it!  Kings have gone one step
beyond the Queen.  Kings tend to be mature but have gone past the 
full bloom of the Queen and are beginning to look beyond to new
horizons.  Because Kings have so much experience behind them they
can tend to be pompous and pedantic and sometimes too slow to take
action.

Gee - I didn't mean to write a discourse of the Tarot!  Sorry about
that!

Nanci

    I too stopped using significator cards at the "base" of my readings. It
    removes (or at least reduces) the possibility of finding the querant
    "in" the layout.  Any of the four "people" cards in any of the suits
    can, in my readings, represent some aspect of the querant (or someone
    else).  Context determines who, if anyone (they can also represent
    personifications of actually impersonal "forces" or events) they are.
    "Person" cards are, I find, the hardest part of a reading to make sense
    of.

				    Topher

	Re: -.357 and it's specific questions (curious as to how others
	make "age" determinations on the court cards when used as
	significators, in particular Knight vs. King for a young,
	mature man).
 
	I think *all* the subsequent replies are real good answers
	and show that there are differences in personal style on
	the question of even pre-selecting a signficator.
 
	To the specific question of whether a young, mature man
	should be a Knight or a King, given only the information
	"young, mature man" and that it's predetermined that we
	are going to tag him as either a Knight or King, my input
	would be he's a Knight since Kings possess wisdon, sagaciousness,
	wealth of experiences, etc., etc. that a "young" man just
	wouldn't have regardless of his "maturity"; I suppose even
	here, though, a King could conceivably be appropriate
	depending on the individual's life experiences and the
	particular underlying situation around which the query
	revolves, but, in general, the fellow is in all likelihood
	a Knight, that's how I'd call it without further information.
	Best answer is there are no particular rules of thumb, just
	give it your best shot and continue to practice and give lots
	of thought, etc., to your Tarot experiences and how to make
	such choices, etc., should eventually become second nature,
	just practice and reflect/meditate on your Tarot experiences.
	Carefully reading through this entire topic and careful
	perusal of any of the books mentioned in this topic which
	you can find will be very helpful, you could consider such
	as "priming" yourself for meditation on the Tarot, this is
	basically how I've come to be able to make here the choice
	between Knight and King "right away" in my own mind without
	giving it a second thought.  BTW, I hardly consider myself
	an "expert", just a muddler but I keep on trying.
    

    
    Thanks for all the responses to my "age" question. As suspected Tarot
    interpretation seems to be very individualistic and open.
    
    Now I have another question - has anyone had any experience with the
    ENCHANTED or ENCHANTMENT TAROT deck? Let me relate a very unusual
    story that recently happened to my friends that live upstairs.
    
    Bob is VERY psychic and has been spending lots of time using my
    AQUARIAN TAROT cards over the last few months. Rick, who owns the
    house, seems to be "in tune" to psychic energies yet closed to their
    reception. Rick inherited the house from his Grandmother who is stil
    very much present. She watches over Rick and protects him with a
    vengence sometimes - she is all around him, yet seems unable or
    unwilling to communicate directly with him. However, when she wants to
    warn him of negative energies or forces she will cause something
    dramatic to happen to him.
    
    Anyways, Bob works in Boston and went to Barnes & Noble to buy a set of
    cards for himself. He wasn't drawn to any of the sets on display and
    began to walk away ... then he felt a pull and discovered a set of
    cards that had been shoved into a back corner of the shelf and were
    practically hidden by other books - the ENCHANTED TAROT. He purchased
    these, brought them home, but got distratcted later that night and
    didn't break the package seal until the next day. Then the trouble
    began ....
    
    It seems that the book contains spells to assist you in making "your
    wishes come true" - things like burying a dead rose in the garden and
    repeating a chant over it. No actual death spells but almost everything
    else! The cards contained pastel colored pictures but he described them as
    contemporary BIZARRE and evil. Bob shoved the book and the cards into a
    drawer until he could get rid of them. That night Rick woke up in the
    middle of the night having a severe anxiety attack! Everything in his
    room was unfamiliar and threatening and he immediately woke Bob to tell
    him about it. Rick tried to return to his room but it felt so cold that
    he instead spent the night on the couch.
    
    The next day Bob took the cards/book with him to work and disposed of
    them in a dumpster. Rick told me the story the next morning while
    riding into work and I immediately suspected the cards. When I was able
    to contact Bob he told me that they had been removed from the house ...
    neither of us has ever mentioned the cards to Rick but no other
    incidents have happened since.
    
    Has anyone had any experiences good or bad with this set? 
    
    Heidi

I have an Enchanted Tarot that I got last summer.  I find it
very friendly, in fact it's my preferred deck at the moment.  
Maybe your friend's deck came from an unfriendly source.

Nanci

Re: .362

You mentioned a book that accompanied the deck.  Was the book specifically for 
that deck?  If so, it may not really mean anything.  But then again, it might.

Also, even though the deck was still wrapped when purchased, it may have been
handled sufficiently by another to affect the deck.  It would have been 
interesting to see if the deck could be cleared, then retuned to your friend.

And lastly, although he may have felt drawn to it, it may not have been an
appropriate deck for him, and it let him know with drastic measures.

Peace and Protection
Beth

    RE: .362
    
    I have the package with the deck and book, but have not had
    problems.  I collect Tarot decks as well as use them, and this
    is not one of my preferred decks.  However, I have handled them
    and use them on at least one occasion, and did not have any adverse 
    reactions.  
    
    However, I have had adverse reactions to other materials and can
    understand and sympathize with the fear that accompanies these
    situations.  
    
    There are some store where they have a binder of "sample cards"
    from various decks that you can look through.  I  have found it
    much easier to select a deck for use this way.
    
    Mary-Michael
    

    
    
    
    re: 3.362
    
    FSOA::HLEINONEN
    
                       I don't understand the relationship between Bob, the
    grandmother, Rick, the tarot deck and the late night incident. Can you 
    help me understand? I feel as though I've missed something.
    
    
                                  Later,
                                   Mark
    
    

    
    
    	Sorry, my explanation isn't very clear ---
    
    	Rick's grandmother owned the house originally and lived in it
    	until her death about 6 years ago. Rick was always her favorite 
    	grandson as he spent lots of time with her over the years. When
    	she died the house was passed on to Rick's mother, but no one
    	lived there for awhile. 
    
    	About 6 years ago Rick and Bob became friends and roommates - 
    	then about 4 years ago Rick's mother turned the house over to him 
    	and he and Bob moved in after they had done some renovations. 
    	They've had additional roommates over the past 4 years and it's	
    	apparent that "someone" is watching over Rick and protecting him.
    	Several of the events that have happened along with everyday
    	occurances in the house have convinced us and Rick's family that
    	his grandmother's spirit is in the house.
    
    	The only significance to evening is that it happened the same
    	day Bob brought the cards into the house.
    
    	Hope this explains a little more.
                       

    Hi
    
    I was give a Hansen-Roberts (sp) deck for christmas.  So I'm just
    learning. 
    
    I haven't had time to read all the notes here yet, but I have a
    question about an earlier note.  It's concerning note 3.26
    USHS01::MCALLISTER.  Dave gives a couple of spreads which should answer
    yes/no questions.  He says the yes/no is shown in card 1, the significator
    card.  "Card 1 : pivot card  dignified - yes,  ill-dignified - no". 
    
    My question is what is are dignified and ill-dignified cards?
    
    I tried the spread last night, but I couldn't work out if I got a yes
    or no.  Card 1 was the 7 cups upright.
    
    Elizabeth
    
    

    re: .368
    
              Elizabeth,
                       Dignified and ill-dignified is another way of saying
    upright or reversed.  Hope this helps you along.
    
                              Later,
                               Mark
    
    

    re: .369, Mark,
    
>                       Dignified and ill-dignified is another way of saying
>    upright or reversed.  Hope this helps you along.
    
    Yes, but isn't the term also used to represent a card that is surrounded
    by or adjacent to cards of a particular type ?  I vaguely recall
    reading in the literature with Robert Wang's _Golden_Dawn_ deck
    that he suggests not using upright and reversed interpretations,
    but instead flavoring the interpretation by the cards in the
    vicinity.   Or am I thinking of a different term or an unusual
    concept ?
    
    							todd

    re: .367, .362
    
    
              Heidi,
                   Thanks for the additional information. Based on what I
    read I see no connection between what Bob felt towards the cards/book,
    what Rick experienced on that night and Ricks Grandmother. Where did
    Bob put the cards; somewhere in Ricks' room? From where I sit it seems
    like a coincedence. 
    
             Tarot cards, spell books and the like are just ink on paper.
    In my humble opinion the only significance that they will have is 
    one which I (you,we,they) place upon it. 
    
             Also,IMHO, Bob and Rick were correct in following thier own 
    feelings in the matter.
    
                                      Later,
                                       Mark
    
    

>             Tarot cards, spell books and the like are just ink on paper.

To some, but to others they are much more.  To me, they are like a conduit, 
that, like electrical lines and water pipes, must be properly insulated at 
points.  A mistreated or misused deck can have a residue build up, which can
affect the information channeled through them.

Some decks also seem to develop a personality.  Or is it just some spirit 
"attaches" itself to the deck?

This is why, when not in use, a deck should be stored properly.  What is proper?
This seems to be a personal choice ("what feels right"), but usually is some
natural fiber (silk, fur, leather) that is not "abrasive" (won't rub/cut/break
the cards).

Beth

    
    
     re: 3.370   ::STARK
    
                I think its that easy; at least that is how I see the term-
    dignified ,ill-dignified  (IMHO). The concept that cards in the 
    vicinity of a particular card flavor that card is widespread. One must
    take the entire spread into concideration when doing a reading. My 
    introduction to the term dignified and ill-dignified came from a Thoth
    deck booklett, and in an example it said that card "BLA" was 
    ill-dignified to card "BLA BLA". The diagram of the spread showed card
    "BLA BLA" having been dealt before card "BLA" and card "BLA" was
    upside-down. Two conceps were being demonstrated in this example. 
    First that for this particular spread the order in which the cards were
    dealt had a definate bearing on the interpretation of  each and second
    that the meaning of a card could be diferent if it were upside-down
    than if it were right-side-up. 
    
                                    
    
                                     Hope this helps,
                                           Later,
                                            Mark
    
    
    
      

    re: .373, Thanks, Mark.

    re .373
    
    Mark, can you give an example using specific cards?  For instance, the
    3 of swords - what cards would make that a dignified or undignified
    answer?
    
    
    ginny

    re: 3.373  HOCUS::FERGUSON
    
        Sory, but I can't.  I will, however, attempt to expand on what I
    said in .373 by way of a generic example. I ask that a few points be
    kept in mind: 1.) what I write here is in my humble opinion, 2.) I am
    not an expert in tarot, 3.) my example will be simplistic (real life 
    may be more, or less, complex), 4.) ^ will be used to signify digni-
    fied; v will be used to signify ill-dignified. 5.) to the best of my
    knowledge the example spread is a lay-out I just made up for this note.
    6.) I don't draw very well with a computer so please bear with me.
    
    Question: During this Lunar Phase what is so about my life?
               Assume that at the time of this spread I am 10 days into
               this Lunar Phase.
    
      last week        now           next week    the week after next
                        |
                        v
    2nd  1st  3rd   5th  4th  6th   8th  7th  9th   11th  10th  12th
     ^    ^    v     v    v    ^     ^    ^    ^     ^      ^     v
                         3SW
    
    Given: 4 Lunar Phases of 7 days each. Each pahse has a significator
           card (1st,4th,7th,10th). Each significator has two modifier 
           cards (2nd & 3rd for the 1st; 5th & 6th for the 4th ...).
           The 4th card dealt was the 3 of swords (ill-dignified).
    
    Method: The cards are read from left to right the low number modifier 
            represents inner influences on the significator; the higher
            represents outer influences on the significator.
    
    Reading: During the second Phase (4th card)  I can expect all the aspects
             of the three of swords to come to bear. The aspects of the 5th card
             (inner and ill-dignified) could compound the issue, the 6th
             card (outer and dignified) could be a "ray of hope" . The 4th
             and 5th card, with respect to each other *only*, are dignified
             this may suggest that there may be a pearl among all this $#!+
             and it will be found within but it may be painful to discover.
    
    
    Hope this helps; I had fun constructing the example.
    
    
                                 Later,
                                  Mark
    
     

    
    Could someone who is versed in the matter help me to find answers to
    these Tarot questions?
    
    	I recently had a reading done over the phone and the woman
    mentioned that a Wish card and a Spirituality card were very strong.
    
    As these different cards in the deck or are they physical positions in
    the reading (the Wish card position).
    
    Things were happening so quickly that I didn't think to ask until
    afterward (actually I didn't even know that she was using the Tarot).
    
    	Thanks,
    		
    				Wendy

    There are cards that are associated with the wish. It would depend on
    position in the reading and the surrounding cards on how strong it is.
    
    Do you know what deck she was using? Do you know what layout she was 
    using?
    

    
    Unfortunately I don't this was with Linda Dearborn over the phone and
    it just didn't accur to me at the time to ask her those kinds of
    questions. I'll be in contact with her again as she wants to give me a
    green tomoto relish recipe (don't even have a clue as to how we got on
    that topic ;-))
    
    				Wendy

If she used the traditional Celtic Cross spread, there
is one position called the "Fears/Hopes/Wishes" which
would detail that aspect of your life at the time of
the reading.

There are several "Spiritual" cards -- the entire 
Wands/Staves suit, the Heirophant, the Hermit,
the High Priestess, the Magician.  I guess it depends
on the question you posed to the cards.

    Wendy, as .380 points out. It does depend upon the position in the
    spread proided the person used a spread. I just did a real quick one
    card reading. (Had him choose the card right from my bag.) Just the one
    card was amazingly insightful into a situation he is in right now that
    he needs to do some work on to resolve.) I went out to my car and
    brought in the deck that I currently use to read with. I have around
    16-17 decks, but only read with one. I use the Merlin Tarot for
    readings. It has several major Arcana cards that directly mention
    Spirituality and/or Spiritual. Different aspects for different cards
    and situations of course. They are The Star, Justice, The Fool, The
    Chariot, The Guardian (Devil in most decks), Death, The Innocent (The
    Hierophant in most decks) Temperance, The Lovers, and Pentacles (Beasts
    in my deck) as a whole suit. I would include the Magician and just
    about any card here if the position was correct and the surrounding
    cards supported it. More importantly, if the query were about
    spiritualness. I would also include Cups in Spiritualness. (Fish in my
    Deck) This is just me, as I find water and my relationship with it to
    be a spiritual experience.
    
    An example of what the cards say would be Death. In my deck it says for
    a Divinatory meaning: "Initially means a change for the better. Implies
    that after dissolution and death comes new life. Often indicates total
    change and re-orientation within the query situation. Can also
    indicate, by position and other defining cards, possible avenues of
    change and new beginnings. On a higher level of understanding,
    frequently indicates changes which arise from deep inner or SPIRITUAL
    (caps mine for emphasis) dirves, causing outer form or patterns in the
    personal life to dissolve. May therefore indicate areas of personal
    tension and inner conflict that are resolved only by true change." 
    
    So if the querant were asking about career and/or love and such, then I
    wouldn't think Spiritualness would apply if the Death card came up. It
    might if the question were Spiritual in nature or about major life
    change. Also, sometimes the choice of cards is influenced by other
    questions in ones mind or even outside influences. (Yeah I know,
    nonbelievers won't buy into that stuff. Not important :-)  ) If Death
    were surrounded by Judgement and Justice and/or say 9 of Cups
    (Fullfillment) and 4 of Pentacles (Increase) I might say Spiritual. 
    Other cards might say something different.
    
    For wish, I could not find a card to mention it. However The Moon
    speaks of desires. The Lovers is a natural for this, as is the World. 
    4 of pentacles(Increase) 6 of pentacles (Benefit), 10 of Pentacles
    (Opportunity), 4 of Cups (Promise), and 9 of Cups (Fullfillment) would
    all speak to me of Wish. Again, as above, it depends on the query, the
    situation(s) influences, (Both inner and outer), position of the card
    in the spread and surrounding cards. 
    
    Hope this helps a little. I'll be interested in seeing what cards Linda
    was talking about. However, I won't be able to log in until Monday, so
    it'll have to wait for me.
    
    Bright Blessings
    
    PJ   

    The 'wish' card is traditionally the 9 of cups and the spiritual card
    is traditionally the magician if this helps any. It all depends upon
    what spread you are using and where they are in the spread and whether
    or not they are reversed.
    
    Blessed be,
    Serenity

    Oh...sorry