Conference 7.286::sports_90

	Christmas was orginaly a pagan holiday celebrating the winter
solstice,  dating back before Christ.

Mike

    RE: .3
    
    Lighten up.  Me thinks you doth protest too much.
    
    	--dan'l

    Chanakuh means the Festival of Lights, an eight day holiday symbolizing
    the 8 days the drop of oil lasted.  What many people misconceive is
    that it's a very light holiday really, a time for celebration and not a
    particularly religious experience.
    
    While I've sworn off organized religion, I maintain my Jewish heritage
    and it's nice to see Chanakuh included for a change.
    
    Dan

Your welcome, Dan.

I heard the story on the radio yesterday and was impressed.  I may
have heard it earlier in Sunday school or Catechism, but didn't
remember....  If I'm not mistaken, though, the really big Jewish
holidays are Rosh Hashana(sp?) and Yom Kippur, right?


As to Christmas being a pagan holiday, so is Easter.  (Easter is always
the first Sunday after the first full moon following the equinox).
There is evidence that the early founders of the church chose these dates
so that they holidays would be easy to remember (especially in the
case of converted pagans)....


And as to Hawk, you'll drink to anything ;^), but wish you and yours
a happy happy for me, ok....

'Saw

>If I'm not mistaken, though, the really big Jewish
>holidays are Rosh Hashana(sp?) and Yom Kippur, right?
 
    Rosh Hoshana is New Year's on the Jewish calander.  While it's a lot
    more serious than Chanukah, it pales in comparison to Yom Kippur, The
    Day of Atonement.
    
    But then there's about a zillion Jewish holidays over the course of the
    year.  
    
    Dan

    > ..... you'll drink to anything ......
    
    I wouldn't be a true Hungarian if I didn't!  Everytime I'm with family
    or socializing with other Hungarians, there's always a macho male who
    just has to bring up that fack.  Heck, I don't drink to be macho, I
    drink because it makes my brain fuzzier and stuff.......  :-)
    
    Hawk

    Re: Why are we celebrating?
    
    I was always taught Jesus Christ is the reason for the season.  It was
    through him that God gave us the gifts of love, faith, etc.
    
    Re: Easter
    
    The pagan stuff might be true, but most of the world knows it as the
    day of Christ's resurrection.  I'm no expert on the Jewish calendar
    (help from Dan maybe?), but doesn't it coincide with the Passover?  I
    believe the Passover was celebrated around Palm Sunday (one week
    prior).
    
    Mike

    Passover is completely unrelated to what you celebrate Easter for. 
    It's usually celebrated around the same time, but as with Chanukah and
    Christmas, it's pure coincidence.
    
    Dan

    and the only reason they were pagan holidays
    
    is because the suckers where there first!!!!!
    
    Now if Eve hadn't pressured that poor Adam in to munching
    on her apple, this whole thing woulda been immataogatory!!
    
    HTH,
    Kev
    

    Re: -1
    
    I realize that Dan, I'm just trying to pinpoint that Easter is actually
    celebrated around the same time that the resurrection actually occurred
    (i.e., about a week after Passover).
    
    Mike

Christmas sort of coincides with a Pagan (i.e., Roman) feast, Saturnalia.
In addition to some religious rites, it consisted partying, giving gifts
and generally lightening up and having a good time.

Personally, I think Christmas is a wonderful time to emulate these Party
Pagans (tm). Of course, New Year's, Mardi Gras, St Patrick's Day and 
days that end in "Y" are other suitable occassions.

TTom

re Mike H:

	Most definitely agreed on the reason Christians celebrate
	Christmas.  
	
	I was trying to tread a fine line and not get too slanted ;^)


re Easter:

	Yes, the reason for celebrating Easter is the Resurrection of
	Christ.  However, it's been pointed out several places that
	the date that Easter falls on is always the first Sunday after
	the first full moon following the Vernal Equinox.  
	
	That timing coincides with a pagan holiday, but as I stated
	earlier, I've read where the Church chose dates like that
	to help the early Christians along....

re Passover:

	If you've seen the Ten Commandments, you know what Passover is.
	
	God was really pissed at the Egyptians for ignoring Moses.
	Now, if I knew a dude who had a staff that could turn into a
	cobra, personally, I wouldn't ignore him, but maybe the Pharoh
	was having a bad year or whatever.

	Anyway, God decided to send "An Angel of the Lord" (mind you, not
	just any old Angel) to bop on down and kill all the first born
	in every house, unless there was lamb's blood around the lintel.

	So, all the Israelites painted up their doors with lamb's blood.

	Since Dathan had scammed Joshua's girl, Joshua got their house for
	him, so his girlfriend wouldn't get slewed by the Angel of the
	Lord....that's why Dathan was on the march toward the REd Sea
	with them....

	Anyway, the Angel of the Lord came down, and wiped out the
	houses without the blood...

	Since the Israelites were gonna be booking out the next day
	they didn't have any leavening for their bread, so they
	had to eat it flat, which is where Matzah comes from, I think.

	Anyway, that's Passover...where the Angel of the Lord passed
	over them....

See, all the Sunday school did me some good....8^)

'Saw

PS  hey Hawk, i like that -- "makes my brain fuzzy"!

    'Saw -  As always, thanks for the base note.
    
    To us all, of whatever faith, the Christmas/Hanukah/winter solstice is
    a celetbration of light.  The light of understanding, of faith, of
    guidance, of life, of whatever else you choose to add.......
    
    
    On the Easter rathole.  Easter is, in fact, placed where it is because
    of Passover.  The crucifixion took place immediately following
    Passover, which is defined somewhere in the Decalogue (Genesis, Exodus,
    Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) in relationship to the spring
    equinox.  So you're all right :-).
    
    A&W

    Re: sunday school
    
    Okay 'Saw I'll give you the Feast of Passover.  Explain these:
    
    Feast of Tabernacle
    Feast of Unleavened Bread
    Feast of Harvest
    Feast of Ingathering
    Feast of the Jews
    Feast of the Dedication
    

    A question:  I've seen this Jewish Holiday spelled "Hanukkah", and a
    few other variations such as Chanukah, etc.
    
    Does anyone know the REALLY correct spelling?  Or are some of these
    variants similar to Christmas being written as Xmas?
    
    Anyway, Happy Hanukkah Dan, and the same to any other noters of the
    Jewish faith.
    
    Lee

    >>Does anyone know the REALLY correct spelling?  Or are some of these
    >>variants similar to Christmas being written as Xmas?
    
    
    Zmcdeffiopmsmjnswedruvhessxpah
    
    But nobody could pronounce it.
    
    JaKe
    

re Dathan:

	Dan, I could never quite get the picture out of my mind that
	when the Israelites get to the Red Sea, the first take went
	something like this....


	Moses, stands at banks of Red Sea, looks back over shoulder
	sees Pharoh's army coming....

	Dathan: [to milling mass of Israelites]  "Where's yer Moses
		now, see...Where's yer Moses now?

	Cecil B Demille:  CUT, CUT...Edward, babe, this isn't White Heat...

re Mike Heiser:

	Gee Mike, I said I went to Sunday school and Catechism...
	Didn't have time for Hebrew School too!  8^)

	Catechism never, ever, never taught anything about the Jewish
	faith.  I think the nuns and priest were still pissed off at the
	Jews for putting Christ on the cross.

	Sunday school did, but my brother and I became Catholic at age
	eight so I'm pretty hazy on a lot of that stuff...  (Shoulda
	stayed a Methodist, believe me...)

	ANYWAY, the Festival of Unleavened Bread I would think (just
	guessing here though) relates to Passover, again, because of
	a lack of leavening, or lack of time for leavening of the
	Bread.  I know that they eat Unleavened Bread at the Seder
	at Passover time....


re Chanukah, Hanukah:

	Either is an "anglicized" spelling of what would be one spelling
	in Hebrew.  

	Much the same was as we anglicize the cyrillic russian alphabet
	so that their words can be pronounced in english.  For instance
	Red October becomes Krasney Octiabr....when the original words
	in the cyrillic alphabet have a much more evident power and beauty.




I think I'm going to write the script for a new movie.  It'll be
called Bill and Ted's Excellent Bible Stories....

8^)

'Saw

 > A question:  I've seen this Jewish Holiday spelled "Hanukkah", and a
 >  few other variations such as Chanukah, etc.

  Although I'm sure someone will disagree with me, both are attempts to 
  have the word sound like it does in hebrew.  The CHA is kind of a growling
  sound.   

  Sort of like how people tried to get the capital of China right....
   (Beijing, Peking, Peiping....)


  My,  Isn't THIS interesting....

		Bob Cohen

�  My,  Isn't THIS interesting....

Kind of a good digression eh Bob?  

I've always felt that the more you understand another person/culture's
way of life, the less easy it is to make stereotypical assumptions...

Now if I could just understand what makes those Klingons tick on
Star Trek....8^)

'Saw

    
    Hey Saw, if you were stuck to an as*hole your entire life you'd
    probably have a bad attitde! 
    
    
    
    Steve 8^)
    

>	Gee Mike, I said I went to Sunday school and Catechism...
>	Didn't have time for Hebrew School too!  8^)
    
    Gee 'Saw, those are all taken from good ole KJV ;-)
    
    Mike_who_didn't_go_to_Hebrew_School_either

�    Gee 'Saw, those are all taken from good ole KJV ;-)


Then I yield to you, Good Sir, for thou art far more worthy
an opponent that I deserve....;^)


'Saw

    re: all that Dathan/Ten Commandments stuff....
    
    I'll never again be able to watch that movie with a straight face! :-)
    
    Hawk
    

    >And what are we celebrating?
    
    	Several years ago it seemed as though we were overrun with films
    focusing on encounters with extra-terrestrial lifeforms. Films such
    as Star Wars, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, Cocoon, Star Trek-the
    Movie, E.T., and Starman all tried to depict what it would be like
    to interact with beings from another world. The basic theme of this
    type of movie seemed to be this: beings of superior intellect and
    capabilities visit the earth, look with sadness on the sorrowful
    state of human affairs and offer help, or at least advice, on how
    to put things back together and start living in harmony with one
    another. Despite all the attention (and dollars) these movies attract,
    the story they have to tell is a mere fairy tale compared to the
    close encounter that God sent to earth nearly two thousand years
    ago.
    	It is truly remarkable to think about. Heaven is as
    extra-terrestrial as you can get. And the Being that came from Heaven
    and took on the form of a man was not just another life-form from
    another planet but the Creator of the planets Himself! (John 1)
    What culture shock Jesus must have experienced, to have left the
    atmosphere of Heaven--filled with the presence and love of God the
    Father and the Holy Spirit--and enter the atmosphere of this
    world--filled with the sounds of angry citizens crowded into their
    home-towns to be taxed; breathing the air permeated with the smell
    of livestock in the manger. What a way for the King of the Universe
    to enter the world--but this was the way He chose. 
    	The passage of Scripture which describes His entrance is a familiar
    one, but one which conveys amazing truth. This story forms the hub
    of civilization; it restarted our calendar nineteen hundred and
    ninety years ago. In Luke chapter 2 it says this: "in those days
    Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of
    the entire Roman world. (This was the first census that took place
    while Quirinius was governing Syria.) And everyone went to his own
    town to register. So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth
    in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he
    belonged to the house and the line of David. He went there to register
    with Mary who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting
    a child. While they were there the time had come for the baby to
    be born, and she gave birth to her first born, a son. She wrapped
    him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no room
    for them in the inn."
    	When this event took place, the significant details of this
    night were swallowed up by the insignificant. What seemed to be
    of utmost importance was trivial compared to the reality of what
    God was introducing in His dealings with mankind.As the people gathered
    around tables in their homes, in the inns or around campfires out
    in the fields grumbling about the inconvenience and expense of
    traveling great distances just to be counted and taxed by this Roman
    emperor and his official, Quirinius, the greatest event of history
    to date was happening in a cattle stall nearby. History would be
    forever changed by this seemingly insignificant newborn baby lying
    in a manger. 1 Corinthians says it well, "God chose the foolish
    things of this world to shame the wise, God chose the weak things
    of the world to shame the strong, He chose the lowly things of this
    world and the despised things and the things that are not, to nullify
    the things that are, that no one may boast before him." This truly
    describes the events surrounding Jesus' birth. We look back today
    and see the birth of the Saviour of the world. But on the night
    it took place the people of Israel had their eyes focused on Rome,
    upon the emperor, and upon the census.
    	Caesar Augustus, the supreme ruler of the known world, and
    Quirinius, his local official, were the stars of the story. Caesar
    had given himself the name "Augustus" which means "divine one" or
    "one whose origin is of the gods" and he expected the people to
    treat him as such. As his local representative, Quirinius' name
    was on the lips of all the people. The census and the tax they imposed
    were the 'big events' that filled their conversation. They were
    upset with the idea that they no longer had control over their own
    government. They were angry over having to pay unfair taxes. This
    was the important news of the day. If Bethlehem would have had a
    news-paper in that day these events would have captured the headlines.
    And what would have received one line way over on page 18 D under
    "Births/Deaths"? "Son of carpenter born in manger." With everything
    else going on, who really cared about another baby being born in
    a cattle stall? And yet this event would ultimately effect their
    lives and would completely eclipse everything that they now believed
    was so critically important.
    	Today the year 1990 marks one thousand nine hundred and ninety
    years from what event? From the year the census was taken? From
    the year Quirinius carried out the proclamation to enforce a tax?
    No, these events are insignificant today. 1990 marks the day a little
    peasant baby was born in Bethlehem. 
    	It's easy for us to look back and smugly say to ourselves, "How
    foolish; to be so busy with the things of this world that one would
    miss an event as wonderful as the birth of the Messiah. Anyone who
    could read Scripture should have seen that Jesus' birth was foretold,
    down to the time and place, but they were so concerned with money
    and with the busyness impossed on them by the system of the day
    that they didn't take time to notice."
    	And yet this is exactly what happens to us to one degree or
    another every year around this same time. The significant get's
    swallowed up by the insignificant. Every year we hear reminders,
    "Don't forget the true meaning of Christmas...don't forget Jesus."
    And we nod our heads, "Oh yeah, OK", as we plunge on into the night,
    through the malls, the crafts fairs, the department stores----all
    the while (just as in Jesus' day) complaining about the amount of
    money we feel forced to pay and the busyness imposed upon us by
    the system.
    	I want to make an appeal for a change, for a refocusing of our
    attention onto the significance of this time of year. I'm not saying,
    "Destroy your Christmas tree, throw away your colored lights, burn
    your Perry Como Christmas albums and just say 'bah, humbug' to the
    whole thing." I'm saying focus your attention this year on the things
    that are significant, beggining with your relationship with God.
    	Jesus Christ, the son of God, truly did come to earth nearly
    2000 years ago to save people from their sins and the first step
    in refocusing your attention on this event is realizing that this
    news is for you. Notice verses 8-10 of the story in Luke 2:  
    "...And there were shepherds out in the field nearby keeping watch
    over their flocks at night. An angel of the Lord appeared to them...
    and said, 'Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy
    that will be for all the people." The news of Jesus' birth is not
    just for some to believe in but for *all people*. Sadly, many take
    the position that only if your life is at a dead end is a belief
    in Christ a viable option. They believe that only a burned out drug
    addict or a convict in prison or someone at the end of their rope
    financially needs a savior. They miss out on the most joyful life
    possible on earth (as well as eternal life with God) because they
    think that only people who need a crutch believe in Jesus Christ.
    But the angels announced that this news of great joy was for all
    people. 
    	At the other end of the extreme are those who feel that they
    are too lowly to have a relationship with God. They feel that He
    is interested only in those people they see driving off to church
    in their 'Sunday best'; the ones who seem to have their "acts
    together"; the ones who never seem to have a problem or a care.
    They feel as though they're different from others because of their
    background, their upbringing, their position in life and so they
    give up, saying, "Why bother? God's not interested in me either."
    But God laid this belief squarely to rest when He chose those who
    would be the first to hear the "good news". It's interesting to
    notice who He selected. He could have sent His angels to those at
    the top, to Caesar Augustus and his men, or to the religious leaders,
    the pharisees and the scribes, or the financial leaders, the tax
    gatherers and the other authorities, but He chose those that were
    considered to be at the bottom of the social ladder of the day---
    shepherds. 
    	Our manger scenes depict clean, upright, noble shepherds who
    we figure were probably pretty well liked by their fellow citizens.
    This is not the case. Shepherds were considered the "uneducated
    class" and most were considered to be thieves and robbers--smelly
    men who did boring, mindless work. They were looked down upon by
    the rest of society...the perfect candidates to reveal the most
    important news of all time to, right? Right! That is, if you're
    trying to make sure that everyone understands that this is for all
    people, from the least on up. God honored them first with the good
    news so that we could all understand that God has not reserved
    salvation for a certain type or class of individual but for all
    people. 
    	Next, in refocusing our lives, we need to understand that this
    is news of *great joy.* Verse 10: "but the angel said to them..'I
    bring you good news of great joy...today in the town of David a
    savior has been born to you, he is the Messiah, Christ the Lord.'
    Suddenly a great company of heavenly hosts appeared with the angel,
    praising God saying, "Glory to God in the Highest, and on earth,
    peace to men on whom his favor rests." Why is it some people view
    Jesus as someone who wants to take away their fun, to bring an end
    to enjoyment of life as they know it? They miss the fact that Jesus
    came to bring ultimate fulfillment to mankind; to reunite us with
    the God who loves and cares for us. He came to bring the joy to
    us that we can never experience while separated from God. To be
    accepted by God, because of the incredible price that Jesus paid
    for us, is good news indeed, and to those who know Him it brings
    great joy. 
    	The last step in refocusing our lives on Christ is simply to
    acknowledge Him. For some that means that initial step of receiving
    Him as Savior. You've heard about Him for a long time but have never
    really received Him for foregivness of your sin and allowed Him
    to make you a new creation. Start there. God sent His Son Jesus
    to bring you the ultimate Christmas gift ever--eternal life. God
    gave to the world His best, His all. To say to God that you're
    good enough without Him states. in effect, that Jesus' coming in
    the form of a man and dying for your sins was unneccessary. Don't
    just hear the good news of foregiveness and acceptance by God and
    do nothing about it. Follow the example of the shepherds who, after
    they heard the message of the Messiah didn't sit back down and say,
    "My, what an interesting message". They got up and went and *found
    Jesus*. Go to Him. He's ready to receive you. 
    	And to those who already know Him my advice is the same. During
    this Christmas season, don't allow the distractions around you to
    keep you from experiencing what's truly significant. Go and find
    Jesus. He's here. The understanding of who He is and what He's done
    for each of us is truly good news of great joy.
                                                                  
    							By Skip Heitzig
    
    Carlos

    Carlos
    
    I am glad to say that I do know Jesus.  I also believe that He found
    me.  Good note and thanks for the encouragement during this CHRISTmas
    season.
    
    Frank Mendez.
    

    Keep that religious trash out of here.  I suggest .27 be deleted as it
    offends me.
    
    Sorry.
    
    	--dan'l

    Actually, let me clarify that before I get jumped on.  It's not the
    content of that note so much as the tone.  Go thump your bible
    elsewhere.
    
    	--dan'l

    How does the story about raining 40 days and 40 nights go?
    Does it have anything to do with the Miami Hurricanes?

Chuck

    Re: .27
    
    Thanks for entering that Carlos!
    
    Mike

    >                -< Bakker and Swagert said the same >-
    
    Good thing Jesus said "Follow *me*, I am the way, the truth, and
    the light." and not "Follow Swagert, or Bakker, they are the way,
    the truth and the light."  :-)
    
    >Keep that religious trash out of here. 
    
    --dan'l, this whole note is filled with religious stuff, my suggestion
    to you is that if it's that offensive to you that you just hit next
    unseen, or else take your own advice offered in .4.
    
    Carlos

    Re. .28 and .32  glad you guys liked it. Hope both of you and everybody
    else in here have a nice holiday season. 
    
    Carlos

	T'was the night before Christmas, and all around town,
	People were happy, they were all getting down.
	All except Chainsaw, who was still in his cube
	Typing out a message for his friends to amuse.

	Ol' Bing had been playing on the stereo, all day,
	But soon 'Saw would change it for some Bob Marley reggae,
	or maybe some Allman Brothers Blues for Christmas,
	and finally some carols, which you don't want to miss.

	When out in the hall there arose this big clatter,
	All of the printers had started to chatter.
	The net was alive with a big Christmas prank
	Though the printers were printing the paper was blank

	As he wandered around though the dark lonely halls,
	He wondered oh what was the cause of it all.
	When from behind him he heard Ho, Ho, Ho,
	As he turned he saw Santa Claus, could it be so?

	He walked up to Santa, and said with a grin,
	You scared the s*** outta me, you almost did me in!
	And as Santa stepped forth from the shadow in the hall
	Chainsaw saw that it wasn't really Santa at all.

	The erstwhile Santa gave forth a big smile, 	
	his eyes shining and twinkling bright all the while,
	And what to Saw's wondering eyes, don't you know,
	it turned out to be none other than good old K.O.

	Just checkin' the sites to ensure Yuletide fun,
	Hurry up and finish, then go party, son.
	His words were still ringing in Saw's disbelieving ears
	and the chime of the clock said that Christmas was near.

	Ho, Ho, Ho, he said once, and once more again,
	Next year is the year that we beat IBM
	So have the Merriest of Christmases, do it up right
	Merry Christmas, there Chainsaw, I'll now say goodnight.

	So the story is told of Chainsaw's Christmas eve,
	yet his Christmas message was yet to be conceived.
	Oh hell, he thought, with this story I can't miss,
	So everyone out there, just have a Merry Christmas!

    Have a great holiday, people!  I'm outta here probably sometime after
    lunch until Jan. 2nd.  I can't believe it- in my 13� years at DEC, I've
    never taken the whole Christmas week off, and I'm finally doing it! 
    The bested part about the whole deal besides the 11 days off in
    exchange for 3 vacation days is coming back and it's wednesday already!
    
    Oh well, it'll be just me and the kids all of nexted week- wifey has to
    work (haha!).  Then again, it may be her lasted week too.  (She works
    for Wang and the layoff rumor mill has a big one hitting after the
    holidays).  We're hoping for major snow.  The kids will be aching to
    use their new sleds, and I just want to finally use my new snowthrower
    that I bought 2 years ago!
    
    Later, and have a happy and safe one!
    
    Hawk

    
    Hawk,
    
    	We're gonna have a white Christmas out here in CXO!  There's
    	4-6 inches on the ground and I doubt it's gonna melt by
    	Tuesday.  You see, the low last night here was -23 F and
    	the high today should be a balmy -10 to -5 with a windchill
    	of -40 to -50.  You shoulda seen the look the dog gave me
    	when I put her out this morning  ;^)
    
    Claybroon

    I'm also out til next year!  Happy Holidays to all!
    
    Mike

    
    Happy Holidays to all and sincere wishes for a prosperous new year. I
    really liked what was said in the base note.  Whatever your
    religious convictions, try to take a moment to pray for, or at least
    visualize, peace on earth.
    
    Steve

    
>    I realize that Dan, I'm just trying to pinpoint that Easter is actually
>    celebrated around the same time that the resurrection actually occurred
>    (i.e., about a week after Passover).
>    
>    Mike
    
    	I'm not one who normally argues about religious stuff, since I've
    tried it enough times already to come to the conclusion that its a
    fruitless, no-win exercise. Religion is too controversial and too
    subjective. Besides most of the arguing is simply to preserve ones own
    beliefs anyway, so whats the use. Search for the truth is what counts,
    (but who can prove what is ultimately the Truth anyway?) not whether your
    right and the other person is wrong.
    
    	BUT, I have to object to Mike's statement above - 'the time that
    the resurrection actually occurred'. This has some strong implications.
    Texts of every kind (including texts such as the Bible) are modified as
    time goes on. The more time, the more modification, the more interpret-
    ation. Lets not 'assume' that anything written in ANY book is factual
    unless we were there to witness it. If we were not there, we're dealing
    in probabilities. We take for granted someone is telling us the truth,
    the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Better wording would be - 'the
    time that the alledged resurrection occurred' - don't you think?
    
    	Besides, whether it actually occurred or not is not the point,
    since I suspect that no-one alive today was alive then!?. Its
    simply a case of choosing to believe it did and going from there.
    
    	By the way, I thought this was a Sports conference!?!?!?