Conference 7.286::sports_90

I didn't see it, but it sure does sound effective.

There is a 1-800 number you can call to voice your protest, but I
forget what it is, and can't seem to find it.

Of course, the alternative is to brew your own...

'Saw

    
    It's time we took a whole shipload of beer kegs and dumped 'em in
    Boston Harbor...after we empty 'em, of course.
    
    Dickster
    

   A) -  I move we officially change the name of this NOTE to:

   OURGNG::SPORTSBAR

   	We need a second to the motion, and a show of hands (okay.. a
        vote).


   B) -  I'm tired of everytime the gov't (local.. state.. whatever) wants
   more money, they slap another tax on booze or cigarettes. They even
   CALL it a sin tax (the jerks! Booze and cigarettes are GOOD for you!).
   The damned gov't should stop trying to legislate morality.

   C) -  I make another motion that if the stoopid gov't wants more money,
   they should tax the churches. (`nother second and a show of hands
   please).

   Mike JN

    Sin taxes are another example of how the government is shooting itself
    in the foot.
    
    We slap taxes on tobacco products all the time yet the government
    spends lots of time and effort to prevent people from smoking.  If they
    legislate smoking out of existence, then who's going to pay all of
    these taxes?  Not only that, but if no one smokes, then the government
    is going to end up paying out more money in social security benefits
    because people will live longer.
    
    Sin taxes are regressive because they hit the poorer members of society
    disproportionately.
    
    Oops I just realized, this isn't SOAPBOX.
    
    John

    Move to North Carolina if you want cheapo cigs.  The state tax on
    cigarettes here is 2 cents.  Yep, 2 cents.  Our great state legislature
    and their tobacco lobbyists do a bangup job at keeping it that way too.
    Meanwhile, we have one of the highest gasoline taxes in the country.
    
    'Course you have some pretty archaic drinking laws in NC too:
    
    	- In order for a club or establishment to serve anything stronger 
    	  than beer or wine, it must be a private member club.
    	- During daylight savings time, final call comes at 2:00 AM.
          When the time changes for winter months, final call is at 1:00AM;
    	  the logic there is that since it gets dark one hour earlier,
    	  people start drinking one hour earlier.  Go figure.
    
    South Carolina is even worse.  There's no alcohol whatsoever on
    Sundays.  Not even special exceptions.  For instance:
    
    	- You can't buy a beer at a Charlotte Knights baseball game on
    	  a Sunday because the stadium is in Ft. Mill, SC.
    	- New Years Eve this year was on a Saturday night.  At midnight,
    	  most nightclubs were not allowed to serve champagne.
    
    RE:-.1
    
    	You've got a second on both your motions there, Mike.  Since I'm
    	the original author, OKBYME.
    

>    South Carolina is even worse.  There's no alcohol whatsoever on
>    Sundays.  Not even special exceptions.  

This is like NC, in that if you're a private club you can serve on
Sundays. Examples are a lot of the hotel clubs, which is about your only
source on Sundays in the Palmetto State.

NC has also passed a no-happy-hour bill. Private clubs are exempt from
this. The way others get around it is to have a happy-day, which is legal
For instance, 7 oz. Rolling Rocks may go for $.50 all day Monday, which
of course may not be any deal at all ;-)

TTom

   re: private clubs

   I was stationed in NC for awhile. It was my impression that the Private
   Clubs were just a winked-at means of making sure only the `right' type
   of people got in (meaning no Blacks). I got a membership card for one
   place for $1, and mentioned to a friend of mine (Black) what a neat
   place it was. When he was in town, he wandered by and got some
   rigamarole about having to be sponsored by a member in good standing,
   vote by the membership, initiation fees, yearly dues, blah, blah, blah.

   whattacuntree, hey?
   Mike JN

    I'll vote a yes on that rename of the conference, whenever it is that
    we next have to roll this thing over to a new version.  (Speaking of
    which, what's the word on what happens when OURGNG goes away?  Any
    resolution yet, or did I just miss it?)  Maybe the rename will cut down
    on instances of newcomers expecting to get serious discussion of
    sporting topics at all times, and cause less offense-taking and
    references to 'Saw's eeexxxcellent description of just how this file
    works......
    
    A&W 

    
    While "vacationing" at Fort Jackson, SC, I seem to recall that there
    were no sales of any 'hard liquor', except at what we call a package
    store here up nawth.  Restaurants served beer and wine only.  You
    wanted a Jack Daniels, you bought a bottle.
    
    On the other hand, you have Massachusetts, in which there are
    absolutely no over-the-counter sales of any alcohol on Sundays,
    but you can go to a bar and drink your head off.  It sure is a pain
    in the posterior to have company drop by and you can't run out for
    even a lousy six-pack (of course, you always make sure you've bought
    enough for yourself on Saturday.)
    
    Now SPORTS related.  No hunting on Sundays.  You can golf, fish,
    play baseball, row, run, play right-handed polo, left handed
    socker[sic], tennis, beach volleyball, wrestle, box, you-name-it,
    but if you happen to enjoy hunting, you can't.  Granted, there would
    be more hunting pressure, but other states seem to manage just fine
    by adjusting the length of the season.  How 'bout closing hunting
    on Tuesdays and Thursdays instead?
    
    Dickster
    

The problem in this country is that all the old farts have the power,
and their in Congress and what not.

I mean, what we need is a few folks in Congress who used to do a lot
of acid in the sixties, named their kids Leaf, and Autumn, and Dew,
and understand that the problem is with inefficiency in government,
not in who's smoking cigarettes or drinking hard liquor.

Gawd, some of these Congressmen are so old they can't find their ass
with both hands.

And Mike, I agree, Tax the churches.  No reason not too, as long as
they are all taxed equally and fairly.  Got some mighty big
tax bases out there.  And if they decided to tax personal property
they should take a good look at the coffers of most any large
Catholic church.  I can't speak for all of them, but I remember
what was in the sacristy vault when I was a_altar boy.

Oops, I guess I got up on John's SOAPBOX.  But hey, isn't this
OURGNG::SPORTSBAR?

8^)
'Saw

� I mean, what we need is a few folks in Congress who used to do a lot
� of acid in the sixties, named their kids Leaf, and Autumn, and Dew,

   Eggs-Ackly! 
   (I wanted to name the kid Bilbo Baggins Johnston, but my wife slapped
   me up side the head so hard I sat on my water-pipe and busted it. Named
   him Mike instead. Excellent decision. Have to hand it to the little
   woman [ or she might slap me bow-legged ]).

   Mike `TIP me over and (so on and so forth)' JN

Wanna run for Congress Mike?  Couldn't be any worse than working here!

Re hunting on Sundays:

	I have a feeling that was a left over law from the early
	days, when ya all had to "go to meetin'" on Sundays.

	If Pa was out huntin', he wouldn't be settin' a good example
	for the younguns....lessin' a course he 'as needin' food...

So many of our laws our put in effect at one time, get quickly outdated,
and then are left on the books.  

If the law concerns alcohol, forget getting it repealed.  Connecticut
package stores close at 8pm because in the late 50s, 
Joseph "Mad Dog" Taborski was robbing the stores, and executing anyone 
who happened to be in there when he hit.

Since the robberies were all late at night, they passed emergency
legislation to get the stores closed at 8pm.  Taborski was the 
last man to be executed in the States Electric chair, in the old
State Prison in Wethersfield, in 1960.

But, have the dweebs allowed package stores to stay open late?  NOOOOOOOOOO!

I'll tell ya!
'Saw

    I think it's dumb that grocery stores/supermarkets and convenience
    stores do not sell beer and wine here in MA.  And what the hell is a
    package store?  Man, when I firsted moved up here from NY, I nearly
    died of hunger because I couldn't get a sub and refused to eat
    something called a grinder, and nearly died of thirst because I wasn't
    gonna drink tonic, something that my haid could use some of for growth,
    and I couldn't get drunk because I didn't need any packages from a
    package store........  Damn strange state this MA!  :-)
    
    I'd gladly pitch in to this budget deficit if supermarkets sold beer
    and wine, and on Sunday's too.  In the meantime, if I need a beer on
    Sunday, I ain't waiting till Monday, I go north........
    
    H�wk

    H�wk,
    
    Didya miss the white pizza and spiedies too when you moved up here?

                                                         
    Hawkster,
    
    Lotsa sto-wahs and mahkets sell beeyah in this state. They *all*
    don't because they haffta be licensed by the City/Town, and there
    are only so many licenses to go around.
    
    Dickster
    

    Actually, I never had white pizza back home, but the pizza itself- no
    comparison, especially NYCity pizza.  This greasy Greek-style pan pizza
    stuff is not pizza!  
    
    What the hell is "spiedies"?
    
    H�wk

    
    >    What the hell is "spiedies"?
  
    It's a pizza with extra cheese and double arachnids.
    
    Dickster
    

    H�wk,
    
    "Spiedies" is marinated meat (chicken, pork or beef).  The only place
    I've ever been able to get this is in New York (Endicott/Owego area)
    The meat is all cut up in cubes - perfect for shish-ka-bobs on the
    B-B-Q!!!!!
    
    Most people out there either like 'em or hate 'em.
    
    Wheel

    Forgot to mention its pronounced:
    
    				'speedies'
    
    
    Good try Dickster!

    Ain't Speedies a cereal guaranteed to keep you "mov'in" all day.
    Especially good for dem late night cramming sessions in college.

    I dunno.....I don't care much for cereal.  I *hate* it when it
    gets soggy and limp.  Reminds me of some guy I once knew, but
    thats another story.............
    
    
    BTW, we used to tell people that it was a special kind of deer
    meat that you cold only get in NY!!!!!  They would fall for it
    all the time....

    Re: taxing the church
    
    Why tax the Catholics twice?  90% of them will already be covered by
    the sin taxes!
    
    Now that I have your attention... ;-)
    
    I vote NO on renaming the conference!  If it is renamed, I'll delete it
    from my Notebook.
    
    Bring back the Prohibition!
    
    Mike

Hawkster --

Now is the time, my son, for you to hear the Gospel of Homebrewing.

In the beginning, God made the Water.  And it was good.  On the
second day, God made the malt.  In the evening of the second day,
God sat back and decided he still wasn't ready, so he made the
Yeast.

For years, beer was brewed thusly.  God saw, and it was good.

In those days the women brewed the beer, and the term alewives
came into being.  The men baked the bread.

One day, God saw that the beer was not lasting as long as it
could have, so an Angel of God appeared to the people and brought
them glad tidings about the new creation called Hops.

And those four creations were good, and what God decreed should
be in beer.

But in those days there were devils that roamed the earth.  Devils
that used additives and sweeteners in their beer.  Additives and 
sweeteners that robbed the beer of it's natural flavors.  Some devils
even used chemical preservatives...

Over the years, even the commercial brewers succombed to the possession
of the devils.

But also over the years a small, steadfast band, carried on the tradition
handed down from on high...a small band of people called Homebrewers.
People who, in their own kitchens brewed fine, fresh beer.  People who
controlled the taste the way a musician controls an instrument.

That is the gospel of homebrew....

Oh yeah, forgot to mention that all this fine, fresh beer is pretty
cheap when you come right down to it.....

Plus, the government hasn't taxed it yet, and the limit per year
that you can homebrew works out to be a six pack per day (roughly)....

So Hawk, heed now the call.  The only time I run out of beer on Sunday
is if I forget to put it in the fridge on Saturday night....8^)

'Saw, Der Braumeister

    >>I vote NO on renaming the conference!  If it is renamed, I'll delete it
    >>from my Notebook.
    
    
    Good!! One less SunStroke fan to deal wif.   8^)

>    <<< Note 293.25 by CSC32::J_HERNANDEZ "SMASH THE PUMPKIN!!!!!! (tm)" >>>
    
    get a REAL team you LA puke!

    yeh like phoenix is a real team.

>    yeh like phoenix is a real team.
    
    more real than LA!

 A little bit off the track but the note does say commercial in it so what
 I want to know is how many people think of Hawk, when they see that 
 Rolling Rock commercial where the knockout gal is making eyes at the guy
 at the end of the bar and he seems to be returning them only to walk past
 her and pick up a Rock?  ;^)

 love that commericial, used to love that beer too...

 mike 

Green Death :== Rolling Rock

TTom

>>Green Death :== Rolling Rock

TTom

Maybe TTom but you're talking to a guy who's favorite beer during his
drinking days was Schiltz....

;^0

mike

    re the last couple, I thought the "Green Death" was Haffenreffer.
    
    Anyone besides me get a mailing a few months back from some Anti Beer
    Tax committee?   Some former major league player was "honorary
    chairman" but I can't recall who...
    
    
    py

    PY,
    
    I'll second your assertion that "Green Death" IS Haffenreffer (on the
    East Coast, anyway).  Haffenreffer ALWAYS tastes like it's 'skunked'.
    Rolling Rock is MUCH milder.
    
    
    Nelly

Gentlemen, gentlemen...heed the homebrew call.  If you can boil water,
you can homebrew.

If you homebrew, you can taste the fruit of your labor without taxation
or regulation....

Shout Halla-brew-ya!

Amen!

    re: .34
    
    >Shout Halla-brew-ya!
    
                       HALLA-BREW-YA!
    
    
    

    Changing the name of the conference is a really dumb idea.  Just
    leave it what it is. Geez.
    
    Rolling Rock is a *great* beer.  Haffenreffer was the green death.
    
    Home brew is okay, Saw, but not everyone needs to do it...
    
    JD

�    Home brew is okay, Saw, but not everyone needs to do it...
    
JD, hear the GOSPEL, hear the WORD!  Salvation is boiling wort
on your stove! 8^)

(Actually, JD, your feeling is spoken like a true Pacific Nor'westerner.
Wif all dem great beers and ales out there, it'd be kinda redundant
to homebrew.  But, it is good beer, much cheaper than commercial
beer, not taxed, and fun to do...)


Say AMEN! 

Rev Chainsaw

    Saw,
    
    I was just wondering what kind of start up costs are entailed in
    starting to home brew(what equipment do you have to buy + ingredients).  
    Also, just out of curiousity, do you have to be over 21 to buy the
    ingredients from the specialty supply shops for beer and wine making?
    It sounds like it could be pretty fun to do.
    
    Tom
    

You can get started with quality equipment and ingredients for your
first batch for under $100.

To the best of my knowledge you don't have to be over 21 to buy the
ingredients because what you buy doesn't become alcohol until you've
fermented it.

There are two states (I'm pretty sure) where it is still illegal to
home brew beer.  I know that Connecticut is NOT one of them, I'm not
sure what they are.

There is a homebrew conference on DSSDEV::HOMEBREW, and if I get
a chance I'll try and send you some mail on what it entails...


(Say Amen, another sheep for the fold!)
Rev Chainsaw

    I think of Hawk when I see a cold one, Rolling Rock, Old Milwaukee,
    Schmidt's, etc.  It don't matter......
    
    I think of Hawk when I see a hot one, blonde, brunette, red-haid, etc. 
    It don't matter......
    
    :-)
    
    H�wk

Hot or Cold, Hawk es mas macho!

   >C) -  I make another motion that if the stoopid gov't wants more money,
   >they should tax the churches. (`nother second and a show of hands
   >please).
    
    Hear, hear!!  It doesn't cost anything to have faith.  And so many
    charletons abuse tax exemptions under this guise, it turns my stomach.
    
    The tax exemption has brought about more religion than anything since
    the Greek gods were worshipped.
    
    Dan

Actually, I don't think taxing the churches is such a bad
idea.  They rake in enough money.

I can see that in the early days non-taxation of the Church might
have helped maintain separation of Church and State, but today, the
churches are hauling in a lot of money, and don't really appear to
be accountable to anyone.....

JMHO,
'Saw
    

    
    >and don't really appear to
    > be accountable to anyone.....                                    
     
    Like the guy says in the Hebrew National Salami ads, "We're accountable
    to a higher authority."  ;-)
    
    Dickster
    

    I'm 50-50 on this.  I'm afraid that the local parishes will get hurt by
    this.  (I'm talking about Catholic, don't know about other
    Christian-based religions or Jewish).  Parishes are closing their doors
    because they can't raise enough funds while the goddamn Pope sits on
    the largest real estate empire in the world.  I enjoy my parish, which
    is just barely making ends meet.  I'd hate to see it shut down.  On the
    other hand, these phony bozos setting up ministries to avoid taxes
    should be nailed (to the cross).
    
    As usual, this form of taxation will hurt the wrong people, I think.
    
    H�wk

    Hawk, clearly, you're soapboxing again.
    
    Mark.

But remember, Dickster, these are the same folks who dropped
into a picnic at Jesus's house only brought 3 fish and five loaves
for 5,000 of them.

With that kinda greed, you think they're gonna be puttin' their
gold coins on the next Heaven Express?  8^)

'Saw

Hawk --


I hear you in a way.  But I also remember my parish when I was
a kid.  The priest, at Midnight Mass, after the sermon, quickly
went through the budget.  He demanded (yes, correct word) a
housekeeper, because, after all "I shouldn't have to empty my
own ash trays".

Small wonder people are fed up with the Catholic Church with 
attitudes like that.

The Catholic Church, as a whole, I've heard, is the second
richest institution in the world.  If they sold off half of
the precious artifacts that they sit on (not to mention the
real estate, like you said), they could feed the world's poor
twice over....

I have to pay my taxes.  I don't have a housekeeper to empty
my ash trays (don't smoke, but you know what I mean...)

Argghhh...

'Saw

    
    3 fish and 5 loaves is plenty, but you need to mix in a helluva
    lot of mayo.
    
    Dickster
    

    Mark, clearly, you caught me again!  Someone, please whack my pee pee.
    Please!
    
    Yeah, I hear you too, 'Saw, and agree.  On the same token, our gov't
    could stop all the military, economic, etc. aid to everyone else, and
    reduce the deficit to $0........
    
    The day that the things that make sense will happen is the day you and
    me quit drinking beer, the BoSox win the WS, the Donks win a SB, Kelly
    Bundy spends a night at your house, and the dINz runs down Causeway St.
    with a black and gold jock on his nose and Wheels' lips glued to his
    epiladied butt!  :-)
    
    H�wk

    
    I see no reason why the Church shouldn't be taxed.  They could even
    make it a token amount.  But multiply those tokens by all the churches
    around and it certainly is a heavenly amount.
    
    What gets me is this "Bishop's Fund Drive" that goes on every year
    in the spring.  The dioscese is rolling in dough, and they're hitting
    poor little churches like Hawkster's for money.  Robbing from the
    poor and giving to the rich, if you will.  Each little parish also
    has a goal or quota set by the dioscese, complete with thermometer
    board on the church lawn, and the goal is always a little bit higher
    than the year before.
    
    But, I'm sure there a lot of people who feel a sense of purpose,
    or a sense of accomplishment in sacrificing for the church each
    year.  In fact, if some churches didn't band together for the annual
    fund drive, they'd collapse.  Enough soap for me.....I have scars
    from growing up Catholic.
    
    Dickster
    Knights of Columbus, 4th Degree
    

At least those shyster TV preachers are up front about wantin' money.

The Church is basically the same way, only with years of "tradition"
and "legitimacy" behind them.

Whatever happened to that old vow of poverty stuff anyway?  
Simon Peter never had a housekeeper 8^)


OH, hell, it's too hot.  I'm getting cranky.

Hawk (or should I say Stud), that picture of Dinz with Wheel's lips
glued to his epiladied butt had me rolling so hard I almost peed
my pants!!!!!

'Saw

    Now tell the truth, you probably DID pee your pants....
    
    And don't count on it happening!
    
    Wheel

    What, dInz using a_epilady?  :-)
    
    H�wk

    The Catholic Church does have a lot of its money tied up in art work
    and real estate and normally has a cash-flow problem.  That's why
    there's so much emphasis on fund-raising.
    
    The more critical problem for the Church is the shortage of priests. 
    There are too many parishes being served by too few people, and I think
    lots of parishes are going to have to be closed in the next few years,
    unless the rules on celibacy are relaxed.
    
    John

    I think there's a compromise position on the tax-the-churches thing.
    
    If the property is used solely for worship purposes, don't tax it. 
    That covers the separation of Church and State, which is very important
    to me.  Any additional property (houses, schools, hospitals, business 
    offices, TV studios, amusement parks,etc) should be taxed at the rate 
    appropriate to the use. 
    
    But that's probably too sensible. :-)
    
    A&W
    

    Speaking of beer commercials, the major breweries are threatening to
    pull all beer ads on sporting events if the U.S. Surgeon General
    requires warnings like those already on the label to be part of the ad.

    The financial state of churches (any denomination) run the full
    spectrum.  The large ones (congregations > 1,000) are REAL stable.  The
    rest barely survive the summers every year (when everyone is on
    vacation).
    
    Mike

    Regarding the beer ads.  I'm sure pro sports will find other sponsors
    to fill the void left by the brewers.
    
    Cars
    Athletic footwear
    Shaving 
    Hunting equipment :^)
    etc.
    
    Mark.

 While I do think taxing the churches isn't a bad idea, it's going to be
 you and me again footing the bill cause the churches will just ask us for
 more cash to cover the cost. You'll pay more to play bingo, you'll pay
 for kids to go sunday school or they'll threaten to lock you out. Any
 way you look at you and I are going to pay while the rich find loophole
 after loophole....

 mike

Mike --

You've hit the nail on the head!  I'd be willing to bet the Catholic
Church (and probably others too) have a certain percentage of corruption
just like any other large organization...


Regarding the beer and warning labels.  YOu know, I think it's all well
and good that we have a Surgeon General and all, but when you come
right down to it, who really gives two SLOFs(tm) about a warning label.

If you want a beer, do you really care what that stupid label says?
Does anyone?  Meantime, all this extra expense of changing the label print
is being passed on to the consumer.  Yep, good ol' Surgeon General.

Didja ever notice how they handle the really 'easy' stuff.  Label alcohol
and cigarettes, because the majority of the conservatives will agree with
ya.  Meantime, there's a ton of teenagers out there getting pregnant
because they don't have easy access too, or know about using a condom
etc.  Now, if the Surgeon General got a program going to distribute
condoms in schools....  (there'd be hell to pay).


Finally, I didn't pee my pants. I *almost* peed my pants.  No DEPENDS
on me!

'Saw

>You've hit the nail on the head!  I'd be willing to bet the Catholic
>Church (and probably others too) have a certain percentage of corruption
>just like any other large organization...
    
    Frank, that's putting it mildly.  If you really want an awakening
    regarding the Roman Catholic church, read a book called "In God's Name".
    It's goes into great detail in regard to the church's monetary value,
    but the main topic of the book is the suspected murder of Pope John
    Paul I.  After reading this book, in my mind, I too think he was
    murdered.  
    
    Here's one bit of interest I picked up from the book, regarding Vatican
    finances.  We know that the only form of birth control the church
    allows is the rythm method, right?  Well, for years the Vatican held a
    majority interest in a French chemical company, that was the world's
    leading supplier of the pill.  But hey, money talks.  I could go on
    about this all day, but this is my last day before vacation, so I don't
    really want to get the blood pressure up too much!
    
    					Steve

    
    Why did they off the pope?
    

    He was a revolutionary.  He believed in other forms of birth control. 
    He was under the belief that the Vatican Bank was corrupt (rightly so
    in my opinion), and plans were in place to remove several highly ranked 
    bishops because of this.  He believed that a VERY corrupt sect of 
    freemasonry had infiltrated the church.  At the time, Catholics belonging 
    to the Masons were excommunicated.
    
    According to witnesses (nuns,bishops), all evidence was taken from his
    room, where he was found dead, and destroyed.  An autopsy was called for
    by many, but the 2nd in command (forget his name but he was also a
    suspect) would hear nothing of it.
    
    And there's a WHOLE lot more.  The authors name was something like
    David Yallop.  It's well worth reading, but don't let your parish
    priest see you reading it.  It's on the church's list of unreadables.
    
    					Steve

    Ha!  Unreadable, eh?  I'd bet many a parish priest got dressed in their
    civies and went off to the city library to take a peek!
    
    Thanks for the info Steve.  Sounds like an interesteing book.  I forgot
    about the Vatican treasury corruption, and the stuff about the Pope's
    death.......
    
    H�wk

Yup, unreadable.

(Gawd, it's Friday, and Steve, ya got me on a roll).

Here we are in the 20th Century.  The Berlin wall has come tumbling
down almost as fast as those famed Walls of Jericho.  Radical reforms
are starting to happen in the Soviet Union.  People in Eastern Europe
are tasting freedoms unimaginable 5 years ago.

But, the good ol' Catholic Church is still proclaiming what it's
people should or shouldn't read.  Amazin' isn't it.

It'd be interesting if someone did a study of brainwashing and 
propaganda techniques used by the Church....

I guess ultimately Power corrupts.  There are men in the Church that
have power, and once you have power you never want to give it up...


As Andrew Dice Clay would say (sort of)

	Un-_______-believable!

'Saw

    OK, since we're way off (no pun intended, Frank) on a tangent, I'd like
    to know which church is the richest these days.  I saw a report five
    years or so ago that listed the Latter Day Saints at the top and the
    Catholics a good million or two behind.  I'd bet it's still true.
    
    FYI: The Mormons own one of the largest cattle ranches in the U.S. 
    It's called Deseret and takes up most of Florida between Melbourne and
    Orlando and points to the north and south of both cities.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    >It'd be interesting if someone did a study of brainwashing and 
    >propaganda techniques used by the Church....
     
    Bingo.
    
    Seems we discussed growing up Catholic in another note a long time
    ago, in a galaxy far, far away, but this hits the nail right on
    the head, pure and simple.  Some people have made the break, and
    others simply can't, because to do so, or even question authority,
    will land you in hot water (or worse, fire and brimstone.)
    
    Back on topic:  Does the pope drink beer, and how does he feel about
    the beer tax?  Do you think he buys his own, or does he send the
    Swiss Guards out for beer runs?  And if he's out of Schlitz and
    he's out of beer, and there are no sales on Sunday, can he just,
    like, draw himself a bathtub full of water and change it into home
    brew?
    
    Dickster
    

�    like, draw himself a bathtub full of water and change it into home
�    brew?
    

Gee, Dickster, I guess you've made the break! 8^)


See, you gotta look at where the Pope is from.  Like, for a long
time, the Pope was from Italy.  Now Italy is not known as a hellacious
beer drinking country, so you know the Pope was doing the Jesus thing
and drinking wine.  (I mean, hey, if Jesus was really into beer, he'd
have made that water into beer, really good beer, back at that wedding).

But this Pope is from Poland, so there's a good chance ol' JP has
sucked back some suds in his time.  I couldn't tell ya about the
homebrewing, though.

Now, just cogitate on this for a while.  Supposing the Pope was
from Munich.  Could you imagine.  I mean, you'd have the Swiss Guards
change to lederhosen, and you'd probably have the band from the
Hofbra� Haus called in for speical occasions.

If the Pope ever came from America, that'd be too much.  I mean, here
you'd have a guy who likes Schlitz... I mean the guy would say "Wine?
Ferget about it!"

I mean, the Catholic Church needs a shot in the arm.  How bout
Pope Roscoe I.  That would really blow there minds, no?

But anyway, I digress.  Personally, I think the Pope is opposed to the
beer tax, since the Church (obviously) is against any kind of taxation...

later,
'Saw

    
    If the Pope came from America, he'd probably be some Dan Quayle-type
    yuppie and we'd end up with Pope Biff, or Pope Chip I or something.
    
    Dickster
    

    Well, I made the break for a good 10 years or so, but then slowly
    slipped back into the fold when I started breeding Olympic champions. 
    :-)  Seriously, the main reason is that I strongly feel that kids need
    a religious upbringing.  When they get older, they can continue, or
    not.  And, if I didn't go to church on Sundays, I wouldn't be a good
    example to them.  Yeah, sorta hypocritical, I guess.  But, when you're
    a parent, sometimes you have to do things that you don't want to for
    the good of your kids.  Actually, I do enjoy Sunday Mass.  I get a good
    feeling about it.  What really cracks me up though is this mental image
    I get every Sunday when the congregation starts chanting the same stuff
    we chant every week.  I picture the old Roman movies where crowds of
    people are chanting praises to their leader........
    
    I usually have a few beers after church.  Hell, it's Sunday anyway!
    
    H�wk

Perhaps it's because my religious upbringing started out in
the Methodist church (my dad's religion), I've always felt
much more comfortable there than in a Catholic church, despite
the years of Catholic upbringing.

In Catholic church I always had this feeling of being judged
(and found wanting), while in a Protestant church (either
Congregationalist or Methodist, didn't much matter) I seemed to
feel a peace and acceptance.

I don't want to offend anyone, but for the most part, I think
priests and bishops are pretty bogus, at least most of the ones I've
seen.

'Saw

>If you want a beer, do you really care what that stupid label says?
    
    If you want to smoke, do you really care what the label says?  I do,
    and I don't.
    
>ya.  Meantime, there's a ton of teenagers out there getting pregnant
>because they don't have easy access too, or know about using a condom
>etc.  Now, if the Surgeon General got a program going to distribute
>condoms in schools....  (there'd be hell to pay).
    
    Children don't need a license for premarital sex because their parents
    aren't taking care of business at home.  You could eliminate a lot of
    "children having children" if the parents brought up their kids
    properly and gave them the proper love and attention at home.  A LOT of
    girls get caught up in that mess because of loneliness and they're
    searching for love that they aren't getting elsewhere.  Kids make the
    mistake of confusing physical sex with real love.
    
    Mike_who's_worked_at_crisis_centers

   I don't really have any antipathy to churches. Everybody comes to terms
   with the fact of their existence in one way or another. I do get bugged
   by some church people. Too many of them seem determined to see that
   everyone is converted to THEIR way of thinking. I find a lot of
   arrogance, and a lack of tolerance of other belief systems. I find a
   lot of hate simmering in self professed `Christians', and wonder what
   the hell Bible they are reading. I see Shi'ite mullahs waving AK47's
   and screaming their guts out about how rotten America is. I see people
   all over the world being sliced and diced because of their religious
   beliefs, or slicing and dicing others over theirs. It sucks. I've
   eventually come to the conclusion that organized religion is often a
   vehicle for harm rather than good. I don't like fanatics of any kind.
   They're generally first cousins to terrorists.

   Mike JN

    Did somone change the OURGNG::SPORTS definition?  I keep trying to
    login into a sports conference and find myself in either SOAPBOX,
    music/book reviews, or snippets of private fantasies.

That's SPORTS, Mac..  But hey, seriously, there has been a lot
of craziness going on this week all over the place.  Don't know
what it is.


Mike (Heiser)... I hear ya dude.  But I'd put for the premise that
smokers don't care what that label says.  And I agree about the
teens and the reasons you mention, however, I was just trying to
make the point that the Surgeon General seems mostly (with some minor
exceptions) to do what's safe.  (ie. we'll label butts and beers
because big factions are against them, but we won't pass out condoms
to prevent pregnancies and AIDS because it's too controversial).


Mike JN, you have some good points.  One only needs to look back
at how the Church tried and tried to deny scientific discovery
(such as Galileo's work) to see just what a vehicle it can be.


'Saw

       I'm Catholic, and I was educated in Catholic elementary and high
    schools.  While I still attend mass on a regular basis, I have grown
    more skeptical of the reliability of the Church.  The Catholic Church
    is supposedly against birth control, premarital sex, and abortion.
    The only way I know this is through my religion classes way back when.  
    Ther Church is very hypocritical.  It expects its members to follow these 
    controversial rules, yet I've heard nada from the priests mouths on
    Sunday sermon time.  They'd rather rattle off about their irrelevant
    correlations between Mrs. Jones cat, Viginia & Santa Claus, and fit in
    something about the big JC's main message in the readings.
    
        The bottom line is that these priests & bishops don't have the
    balls to preach what the church teaches because they're afraid that if
    they piss off the congregation they won't be pulling in those big
    Sunday collections.  The Church's silence on these issues offer nill  
    guidance to its young parishioners and contributes to my growing belief
    that in the US at least, much of it is spineless.  Why should they then
    follow rules that the Church is too afraid to teach & explain.
    
        Oh yeah,  my friends and I from high school, liken the Catholic
    Church's and institutions' ability to cover up its dirty side to that of
    the mob:  but I think the Church does it better.
    
    Tom
    

Hey Mac, do you work for Bush or something? You're great at trying to tell
us what to do....We've benn getting off on tangents for years now and you're
still trying to straighten us out. I'd have thought you'd have given up by
now...

:^)

mike

>    correlations between Mrs. Jones cat, Viginia & Santa Claus, and fit in
>    something about the big JC's main message in the readings.


Tom, I haven't been in a while.  Do they actually get JC's main message
in there?

(I'm not being funny, I'm serious here) I always found that there seemed
to be a lot more emphasis on the Bible, and Bible reading in the
Protestant Churches than in the Catholic Church.

I think people are finding today that there's a lot of hoopla in
the Catholic Church and not much substance.  As John Hendry mentioned,
the number of Priests and Nuns are quickly diminishing.  If the
trend doesn't change, I predict there won't be any Catholic Church
farther on down the road....

Good analogy to the mob, btw....

'Saw    

    No, Mike, I don't work for Bush.  I thought I was one of the conference
    moderators.

IMHO...

It all depends on your local priest and your local parish. If you have a priest
that believes in what he is doing and is willing to tlak to the parisheners then
church is a worthwhile experience. If you get one of the priests that is just
spouting rhetoric then church become hipocrasy.

In my parents parish they used to have a hyocrite who was basically interested
in how much money the parish pulled in...attendance declined and the parish 
was falling apart..after many moons they got a new priest that cares about what
he is doing. He never talks about $$$ and he is willing to discuss anything
with anyone (had a great conversation with im about everything under the sun
at a party once) He is a young guy that believes in what he is doing and it
shows. 

The parish loves him and church is worth going to when I'm home visiting.


Metz

>(I'm not being funny, I'm serious here) I always found that there seemed
>to be a lot more emphasis on the Bible, and Bible reading in the
>Protestant Churches than in the Catholic Church.
    
    'Saw, you hit the nail on the head!  This Protestant went to a Catholic
    high school.  Is it coincidence that the Catholic Church's stances are
    derived from the Bible, yet they never reference it?
    
    There's a lot of doctrine in the Catholic Bible (including 6 extra
    books that the KJV DOESN'T have, otherwise it is the same book) that 
    Catholics will never know about because their clergy never addresses 
    those topics.  
    
    There aren't many fundamental doctrines (read a few important ones) that 
    separate Catholics and Protestants, but they'd never know it.
    
    Not that I'm raggin' on the Catholic Church, but I've also heard they 
    compromised themselves for financial reasons back in the early
    centuries by incorporating Druid practices, rather than lose their
    support in the Roman Empire.  That explains why Druids and Catholics have 
    similar ceremonial garments and altars.  All because of $$$!
    
    Mike

    My gripe in my last note was that the Church doesn't teach its own
    rules.  The parishes that I've attended do address the scriptures and
    mostly try to relate it to today's world(often unsuccessfully).  I
    agree with some of the past replies that a priest who really is ardent
    and believes in what he is doing can  make a difference in what
    you are able to get out of Mass.
    
    I've never attended a Protestant Church so I have no basis for a
    comparison.  
    
    Tom
    

	Only in SPORTS could we have beer tax law, and it turns into a rag
on the Catholic Church note. 

	I'll say this much. It depends on where you go to Church, etc.
as to who speaks about what. As a rule, the sermon is supposed to address
the Gospel and the Readings(The Bible). Since specific laws about
abortion, etc. were developed AFTER the Bible, they are generally not spoken
about at sermons.

	However, there are Catholic publications, available free of charge,
and even mailed to parishoners homes  in organized parishes, which 
address these issues very specifically. I'm not saying they give both
sides, of course the give the church viewpoint. Also, adult religious 
education addresses this, in parishes where it is offered. This is where
the age of the church, particularly in the US, becomes a problem. Older
priests who are generally in charge have to energy to keep up with some
of the new stuff, and keep things status quo. They may be wrong, but they
are giving in to human nature. They are human, after all. As far as changes
in the Church go, consider this. Yes, society in the US has changed drastically
in the US in the last 30 years or so. Has it undergone such a dramatic change
in the rest of the world? Hard for us to say. Should there be a US Roman
Catholic Church, and another for the rest of the world? We are used to getting
what we want, hell even demanding what we want, and getting it, or going out
and getting it ourselves. The Church doesn't work that way. It's scope is the
world, not the US. The last 30 years in the US are really just a drop in the
bucket of time as far as the Church is concerned. 

	And yes, it's easy to be critical of the Church, as it's easy to be
critical of most large organizations. And it's also easy to single out
bad members of an organization, they tend to leave a bad impression. We
seem to be judging the Church the way someone who reads SPORTS for the first
time might judge us. (Yikes! :^))

	That's enough for now..

	Jim M

Good point Mike.

From what I remember of some of my informal religious studies,
the closer Protestant Church to the Catholic Church is the
Episcopalians.   The major difference I believe between the
two is that the Episcopalians don't believe in the infallibility of
the Pope, and (if I remember correctly) don't believe in the 
Assumption of the Virgin Mary.

Other churches have varying differences.


Easter, the day commemorating Christ's resurrection is really observed on an
old Pagan holiday.  It's always the first Sunday after the first full
moon following the Vernal Equinox.  That's why it's a different day every
year.  The Church chose this day to help new converts to remember (or
because of Druidic practices....)


It's great the there are some young priests who are willing to be
human like that.  The Church has to help meet people's needs, not
give them more neurosis....

'Saw

>Re: .86               
>the Gospel and the Readings(The Bible). Since specific laws about
>abortion, etc. were developed AFTER the Bible, they are generally not spoken
>about at sermons.

    Murder became unlawful after the Bible?

Re: .87               

    'Saw, FWIW, I don't believe ANY Protestant denomination accepts Mary or
    the Pope as deity.

Re: Pagan holidays

    I believe you can also add Christmas and Halloween (All Saints Day or All
    Hallows Eve) to that list.  Christmas was some sort of Winter Solstice
    holiday.

    Mike

    This is an interesting debate here. Who woulda thunk it...
    
    Just to clarify a couple of points, the Episcopal, or Anglican Church,
    is very similar to Roman Catholicism, except for a few things: Priests
    can marry and have a family (there are also some women priests). 
    Episcopalians don't have confession. Anyone, as long as they have been
    baptized in a Christain denomination, can receive communion at a service 
    (This may vary, but it was the case in the parish where I grew up). 
    They don't recognize the Pope as the next step away from God (The 
    ArchBishop of Canterbury is the equivalent).
    
    The split came in the Middle Ages when the King of England (James I, 
    I think) wanted to get divorced. the Pope said "no, I'll excommunicate 
    you if you do this."  Jimmy told the Pope to take a hike and formed his
    "own" church, the Church of England. I dunno when and where the other
    differences  came from.
    
    Personally, I'm a  little fed up with organized religion in general,
    and think that it means much more to live within the 10 commandments,
    work hard, treat people right, etc. than it does to belong to a parish.
    
    Tom 

re Protestants and the Pope...

From what I understand, the Episcopalians are the closest to the
Catholic Church.


re Papl Infallibility...

This does not refer to him never making a mistake.  The way I understand
this, it means that when the Pope speaks on doctrine and dogma, his
word is considered to be the direct word of God, or something like
that.


BTW, what's Mattingly's batting average this days?  Is it higher than
his body weight?  Has he needed devine intervention...

'Saw

   � The split came in the Middle Ages when the King of England (James I, 
   � I think) wanted to get divorced. the Pope said "no, I'll excommunicate 
   � you if you do this."  Jimmy told the Pope to take a hike and formed his
   � "own" church, the Church of England. I dunno when and where the other
   � differences  came from.
    
    The English king who wanted a divorce that caused the split from the
    Roman Catholic Church that led to the founding of the Church Of England
    was the infamous Henry VIII.  He of the "Six Wives" fame.
    
    Henry certainly employed some *interesting* methods when he felt like
    changing partners.
    
    Bob Hunt

    
    Lately, I've gotten more involved with the Unitarians, my wife's
    affiliation.  Basically, it seems to be an organized religion for
    people who don't like organized religion.  Some of the Parishioners
    lean toward traditional Jewish teachings, while others favor Christian
    teachings.  That particular parish is having a hard time finding
    and keeping ministers because they can't settle on one who will
    please all the people all the time.  Tough task, eh?
    
    But this does seem to be a church which is more in line with my
    own personal feelings; that God is what you want Him to be, and
    your relationship with him is personal.  We all share a common bond,
    which is life itself, and perhaps that is the concept of "God."
    
    Dickster
    

    I just want to respond to this big deal that is always made out of the
    Pope supposedly being 2nd in line to God.  Saw was right in saying that
    the concept of Papal infallibility is only used in situations where the
    Pope is decreeing a special statement on Church dogma.  I believe that
    this has only been invoked twice in the history of the Church(taught a
    long time ago and can't remember what they were).  It is often refered
    to by people to make it sound like whatever the Pope says is correct &
    the word of God(incorrectly)
    
    Tom
    .

    Knowing what I do about the Catholic Church (and reading the griping
    going on in here) I can only conclude:
    
    "Thank you Martin Luther.  Thank you!"
    
    
    - ACC_Chris_who_thinks_Dean_(and_everybody_else)_are_on_equal_footing_
      with_the_Pope

�    - ACC_Chris_who_thinks_Dean_(and_everybody_else)_are_on_equal_footing_
�      with_the_Pope


Gawd, Chris, cain't you do anything without getting Dean involved 8^)

This has been a very interesting discussion....

'Saw

    Dean couldn't hold a nun's jock, don't kid yourself.
    
    Tom   

    Re: the mob and the Roman Catholic church
    
    Once again, read "In God's Name" by David Yallop if you get a chance.
    I don't recall the publisher, but the paperback version came out in
    about '84.
    
    This man did an incredible amount of research.  Has anyone ever
    wondered where the mob launders their money?  One way is to set up
    dummy corporations and banks, by very clever bankers like Michelle 
    Sindonna, who was controlled by a guy whose last name was Gelli.  Mr. 
    Gelli was a high ranking Mason (who's since been denounced) who 
    controlled many many people in high places (some of them American).  
    When the news was about to become public, Mr. Gelli was found hanging 
    from beneath a bridge in London I believe.  Mr. Sindonna had more 
    "acquaintances" than Gelli I suspect.
    
    These men were frequent visitors of Pope Paul, who preceeded Pope John
    Paul I.  When John Paul I was going to remove all the ranking bishops
    in the Vatican Bank the plan of action went into effect.  I'm convinced
    this very humble man was murdered.  The present Pope John Paul II has 
    kept many of these corrupt bishops in place, where they still are to 
    this day.  It is reasons such as these that have completely turned me 
    off.
    
    Anyway, I'm off on vacation for the next week, so I won't be around to
    defend or offer more anecdotes concerning this topic, so...C-Ya!
    
    					Steve
                           

ACC, let me guess then...BobKnight would be the AntiChrist? 8^)

Just pullin' your leg dude....

Have a good weekend.  

'Saw    

   RE: the book `In God's  Name'

   	The author sounds like one of those dudes with an axe to grind, or
   working to their own agenda. I generally read things of that nature
   with a healthy dose of skepticism, if not outright disbelief. Ever read
   Eric Van Daniken (sp?). He's a real hoot. 
   (Should we talk about Ancient Astronauts, Flying Saucers, and Chariots
   of the gods, next? It seems like a logical segue; I mean, after all,
   this is SPORTS, right?)

   Mike JN

    DEVILS!

JOISY!!!!  uh... I mean JERSEY! (Sorry, got carried away)
                                             ^^^^^
                                      [ Ever read Carrie? ]

   HAHAHAHAHAHAHA (tm)
   Mike JN