Conference 7.286::sports_90

    No question - Joe Jackson belongs in the HoF. The shroud around
    him is not nearly as solid as is Rose. Jackson was a hell of a player
    but he was flat out dumb and naive. He was used, plain and simple.
    
    I also believe Rose belongs in the HoF. Nothing he did as a player,
    in my opinion, degraded from the game.
    
    Gambling? Isn't Paul Hornung in the football HoF? What about Alex
    Karras? 
    
    Substance abuse? Nearly all of the old time bios talk about the
    great alcohol exploits of HoFers. Ruth, Cobb etc were abusers of
    the first magnitude yet played the game between the lines better
    than anyone else. That's what counts. That is where the hypocricy
    is today. If Ruth lived today and played today, SI and ABC sports
    would crucify him for his lifestyle. That's what happened to Rose.
    
    In Jackson's case, Landis wanted to set an example and did it with
    his eyes closed.
    
    Rich
    

    	Sholess Joe was screwed, glued and tatooed, but with exception
    of a few baseball fans and purists there will never be enough of
    a public outcry to right the wrong.
    
    				/Don

    
    
    Agree with the last few
    
    Shoeless definitely belongs in the HOF...........
    
    After reading several books about the whole affair, he really had
    it tucked to him.........
    
    MHO
    
    Lou

    
    We could use more Indians in the Hall of Fame... let Joe in...!

    What are Shoeless' stats?  What makes him HOF material?
    
    Glenn

    There's an organization in Greenville, South Carolina, which is trying
    to get support for Shoeless Joe Jackson's election to the Hall Of Fame. 
    Greenville was Jackson's hometown and it's also where he lived out his
    final days in poverty.
    
    I've read a lot on the 1919 World Series and the Black Sox.  I believe
    it was Stephen Jay Gould who said it best ...
    
                 "His sin so old; his play so sublime."
    
    I'd vote him in the Hall in a second.  Rose, too.  To me, it's on the
    field that counts.
    
    Bob Hunt

 Well let's all make push for Shoeless Joe. We're nation wide in here so 
 perhaps if Bob, Chris or one of our other southern friends could come up
 with the address we could all help out by siging up our friends outside the
 company etc....

 Rose will get in, I have no doubt because almost every so called "expert"
 I read in sports publications say the same thing "yeah he's an ass off
 the field but what he did between the lines is deserving".

 What Joe did is like a parking ticket compare to Pete....

 mike

    Jackson played for the Philadelphia Athletics from 1908-1909, for
    the Cleveland Indians from 1910-1915 and for the Chicago White Sox
    from 1915-1920.
    
    He scored 873 Runs, had 1,774 Hits, hit 307 Doubles, 168 Triples
    and 54 HRs. He knocked in 785 runs while stealing 202 bases. His
    lifetime batting average was .356 with a Slugging % of .518.
    
    Rich
    

re Jackson's stats:

I don't have them with me.  I can get them tonight from my baseball
book.  If I remember correctly he was a lifetime .300+ hitter, who
also had pretty decent power.

One thing I do remember is that for someone who was supposed to be
throwing a Series, he sure as hell had some phenomenal numbers for
that series.

Yeah, if you can get the address of the organization, I'd sure like
to have it...

Chainsaw

    I'd get a ton of signatures, cards, letters, or whatever it took. 'Jus
    git da address.

    In the 1919 World Series, Jackson batted .375 with 6 RBI's.
    
    Rich
    

    and the only homer of da series
    
    
    
    Schlepp'in

    And Ty Cobb said that Jackson stood second to none as a hitter -
    including Cobb. 
    
    That's a strong endorsement ....

    As I mentioned before, I've done a fair amount of reading on the 1919
    World Series and the Black Sox Scandal.  There is an entire topic
    devoted to this issue over in the ASABET::BASEBALL conference.
    
    Essentially, the plot to throw the World Series was the brainchild of
    two players, 1B Arnold "Chick" Gandil and SS Swede Risberg.  Neither of
    these two players were "superstars" but they were still awfully good
    players.  The 1919 Chisox were a powerhouse in every phase of the game.
    
    Gandil was a rough and tough guy.  From California, he was one of those
    hard-boiled, Wild West types.   Probably would have been a pistol
    packin' outlaw had he been born 40-50 years earlier.   Risberg was a
    street-wise, touch city boy.   Both of these guys were out to make a
    buck.  Quickly.
    
    And the Chisox owner, the legendary Charlie Comiskey, was a cheapskate
    of the highest order.  Routinely paid very low salaries, denied
    promised bonuses, and generally kept the players "down" where they
    belonged, in his opinion.   Meanwhile, he lavishly entertained the
    press corps.
    
    So, both Gandil and Risberg were looking for quick dough and they both
    loathed Comiskey.  But they knew they could never throw the Series all
    by themselves.  They knew they had to get at least the top two starting
    pitchers, Eddie Cicotte and Claude "Lefty" Williams.   They knew they
    had to get at least two outfielders, one of whom had to be Shoeless
    Joe.  And they wanted Buck Weaver, the Sox' fine young thirdbaseman,
    too.
    
    They got Cicotte into it after they convinced him that Comiskey was the
    "enemy", so to speak.  Williams followed in line after he knew that
    Cicotte was in on it.   They got Oscar "Happy" Felsch, the
    centerfielder, and they told Buck Weaver what was happening.  Weaver
    resisted their invitation and played his heart out.  He never took a
    penny.  But Landis tossed him anyway because he knew but didn't tell
    anyone.
    
    They also got a bench warmer, Fred McMillan, in on the scheme.  He was
    a pal of Risberg's and that was his only connection.  He pinch-hit once
    in the Series and had no effect.
    
    So, the night before Game 1, Risberg approached Jackson.  He claimed
    that "everyone is already in on it" and that Joe would look silly not
    getting involved.  He made Joe believe that it was a done deal and that
    he would only hurt himself by not taking the money.  He told Joe that
    he didn't have to "look bad, just ease up a bit."
    
    In reality, Risberg and Gandil had *NO* deal if Jackson didn't agree to
    it.  They conned him into it.   They were all promised $10,000 apiece
    but, as you can guess, all sorts of wheeling and dealing went on and
    the gamblers ended up stiffing the players out of their promised
    shares.   Jackson took $5,000 in cash.  Cicotte got $10,000 before he
    threw a pitch.   Felsch got $5,000 and so did Williams and McMillan. 
    Risberg took $15,000 and Gandil kept $35,000 for himself and left for
    California after the Series was over.   Weaver took no money at all.
    
    The Sox lost Games 1 and 2 in Cincinnati.  Cicotte and Williams took
    the losses.  Dickie Kerr, who was not involved, won Game 3 in Chicago. 
    Cicotte and Williams then lost Games 4 and 5 in Chicago.   This was a
    best of nine Series, by the way.   So, after 5 games, the Reds led 4
    games to 1.   Dickie Kerr won Game 6 back in Cincy and Eddie Cicotte
    decided to play Game 7 on the level since the gamblers had, by now,
    stiffed the players out of most of their promised money.  And Cicotte
    won Game 7 in Cincy.
    
    So, now it stood at Reds 4, Chisox 3 with the final two games in
    Chicago.  Arnold Rothstein, the biggest gambler in the scheme, put out
    a death threat on "Lefty" Williams' wife.   Williams got the message
    the night before and tanked the game the next day.  He, too, had
    decided to win Game 8 but the death threat ended that illusion.   Reds
    took the Series 5 games to 3.
    
    The talk of a fix started almost immediately.  The gamblers all took
    overseas vacations so that they could avoid grand juries and all that. 
    In the late summer of 1920, a grand jury was summoned to bring
    indictments down on the players.  Cicotte confessed to the grand jury
    and signed a waiver of immunity.   And then they got Jackson to sign
    what they told him was just a waiver of immunuity but in reality was
    really a confession.  Jackson could not read or write so he "X"ed the
    document and sealed an indictment for himself.
    
    All eight were indicted and tried together.  Midway through the trial,
    Comiskey's and Rothstein's people got together and agreed that a
    conviction could ruin both of their businesses.  So, they conspired to
    rig an acquital.  The confessions were stolen, none of the players were
    allowed to testify (which infuriated Buck Weaver), and they were all
    nicely acquitted.  This was late 1920.
    
    But Judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis, the first commissioner of baseball,
    threw all eight, including Weaver, out of the game for good in 1921. 
    Weaver tried for years to get reinstated but he never succeeded.  
    Comiskey's team was ripped apart and didn't win the pennant again until
    1959, forty years later.  The Chisox have only the 1983 AL West flag to
    show since then.   Rothstein was shot to death in 1928 in a poker game. 
    And Joe Jackson kicked around in various loosely organized baseball
    teams around the country for the next 20 years or so.  He died in 1951
    in Greenville, SC, his home.
    
    Interestingly enough, there is a theory, quite valid in my opinion,
    that the Black Sox Scandal, was one of the *best* things to happen to
    the game because it helped clean it up in the long run.   And it led to
    the Babe Ruth-led Roaring Twenties when baseball exploded on the
    national scenery.
    
    A truly fascinating episode ...
    
    Bob Hunt

                                All Hearsay

                       Shoeless Joe is no Wade Boggs!

   Mike JN

If Pete Rose makes the HoF, and Shoeless Joe remains out, then
a bigger crime will have been committed than what allegedly happened
in 1921 when Jackson was banned.

A travesty of justice...a true travesty.

Chainsaw

    Thats Miscarriage of Justice, Frank.
    
    
    
    'jus been a schlepper

Yeah, that's the ticket...worse than that tho...it was
a_abortion!

'SAw

      If Pete Rose had not gotten into the mess he's in, not too many folks
    would care if Joe Jackson were exhonerated and got into the HoF. I see
    this as a prerequisite attempt to pave the way for Rose. Right now it
    would be hypocrisy to induct Rose into the HoF if Jackson is not, sooo
    first things first, some people want Jackson in soon to be followed
    by Rose. Personally I think both of them disgraced the game and knew
    the consequences of doing so. 
      I believe that any records either of them set should be mentioned
    in the appropriate section of the hall in Cooperstown, but neither
    of them should be honored with a plaque. No doubt there are those who
    disagree.
    
    Paul
    

    
    I will call the local paper and try and get the address.I should have
    it by Thursday or Friday.
    
    
    d.s. 

Phenomenal tune their, Mike.....
    

    I wanted to expound a bit more on this statement I made a few notes
    back ...
    
   >> Interestingly enough, there is a theory, quite valid in my opinion,
   >> that the Black Sox Scandal, was one of the *best* things to happen to
   >> the game because it helped clean it up in the long run.   And it led to
   >> the Babe Ruth-led Roaring Twenties when baseball exploded on the
   >> national scenery.
    
    Prior to the Black Sox Scandal, gambling and baseball were almost
    always intertwined.  Some theories hold that the very first pro team,
    the Cincinnati Redlegs, was formed in 1869 to help legitimize the game
    and stop some of the gambling abuses.   The idea, I guess, was that if
    the players were paid a salary, they wouldn't feel the urge to take
    money to lose on purpose.   It didn't stop the gambling influence but
    it did help legitimize the sport.
    
    But the Black Sox Scandal rocked the entire game.  It was so
    devastating that the owners had to basically surrender their
    collective authority to a new postion, the Commissioner Of Baseball. 
    And Judge Landis was the first man appointed to the position.  He knew
    that the game had to be clean if it were going to succeed.  And so he
    booted the eight Black Sox for good.
    
    As for Ruth, he, of course, burst onto the scene around 1915-1916 or so
    as a superb pitcher for the Red Sox.  Plus he could hit a little.  
    And, then there came infamous sale of Ruth to the Yankees so that Sox
    owner Harry Frazee could finance a production of "No No, Nanette". 
    This was 1920, the year after the rigged Series.
    
    Up to this time, the owners of baseball teams had been very careful
    about the competitive balance between offense and defense.   Batting
    averages had averaged at or near about .260 for the past 50 years or
    so.    More than .260 and there was too much offense and less than .260
    was too much pitching.  All kinds of rule changes were enacted to keep
    that kind of balance.   Different types of pitches were legal or
    illegal, strike zones were expanded or contracted, and so on ...
    
    Until the Black Sox ...
    
    After the scandal was uncovered and the aftershocks were felt, the
    owners let the lid off, so to speak.   The next 20 or so years, from
    1920 to 1941, were the most explosive *offensive* years in baseball
    history.   It started with the juiced up "lively" ball in 1920 when
    Ruth jacked out over 50 home runs.   Nobody had ever hit more than 25
    or so and Ruth just blew them all away.   His peak, of course, was 1927
    when he hit 60 dingers.   There were also a number of hitters who hit
    over .400 during the 1920s.  I think Rogers Hornsby actually hit like
    .420 for a year.   And the *ENTIRE* National League hit over .300
    during 1930.
    
    The 1930s saw more and more offense as the owners were determined to
    use exciting high scoring games to shake the effects of the scandal. 
    Basically, it was World War II which ended the offensive binge.  The
    last year before the war was 1941 in which we saw the immortal 56 game
    hitting streak of Joe DiMaggio and the equally immortal .406 average of
    Teddy Ballgame.
    
    The war saw a lot of players go ovrseas and things kind of started to
    swing back towards the pitchers.   The apex of the pitching swing was
    1968 when Don Drysdale pitched over 58 straight scoreless innings and
    Bob Gibson had an ungodly 1.12 ERA.   And Yaz won the AL batting title
    with a .301 average.   After 1968, the mound was lowered and the strike
    zone was pinched again to try and bring averages and scoring back up.
    
    So, the Black Sox Scandal was, without a doubt, a watershed event in
    baseball history.   Its' effects are still being felt today.  The game
    has survived it but it was forever changed by it.
    
    Bob Hunt

    re .24
    
    Great stuff, Bob. Thanks.
    
    Rich
    

    re .24
    
    Hornsby batted over .400 three times,setting the major league record of
    .424.

    for 1920-24 Hornsby averaged OVER .400 for the 5 seasons.

   � In 1969 this was changed back to the armpits to top of the knee.

   What the Strike zone is, and what the strike zone `really' is, seem to
   be quite different things.

   I'd say bottom of knee, to 1.75" above the belly button... with a REAL
   creative definition of what constitutes inside and outside corners of
   the plate. I feel the pitchers have a major advantage.

   Mike JN

    I spoke with the nephew of the late Joe Jackson this evening. His name
    is Lester Erwin. Lester is co-founder of the "Shoeless" Joe Jackson
    Society. He resides at:
                              114 Robin Hood Road
                         Greenville, South Carolina 29607
                             Home Phone:803-271-9065
    
    During our brief telephone conversation, I explained Digitals
    nationwide communication through notes file. Lester sounded pleased and
    very excited about this topic. He encouraged me to tell everyone to
    write or give him a call.
    
    Lester talked about two of his top priorities:
                    1.To get memberships established
                    2.Baseball Cards - he wants cards printed out for each 
                                       member
    
    In the meantime, he's just buying time to see what happens with Pete
    Rose.
         Mike_who_may_just_drop_in_for_a_visit
                                              

    Questions: Did Jackson know is his teammates were throwing the WS?
               Did Jackson take the money and then return it?
    
            REK

I used to do a lot of consulting down in Greenville, SC.

Pretty nice place, but hot as hell in the summertime.  Had some
of the best peach cobbler I've ever had, in a restaurant down
there....

I think we should all send Lester a letter and show our support.
(If you don't support it, then go take a suck pill 8^))

later,
Chainsaw

    >> Did Jackson know is his teammates were throwing the WS?
    
    Yes, there is little or no doubt that Shoeless Joe Jackson knew
    conclusively that some of his teammates were throwing the 1919 World
    Series.    He testified to this before the grand jury.
    
    >> Did Jackson take the money and then return it?
    
    He took $5,000 in cash early in the Series.  And he did not return it. 
    Who would he return it to ???   The money came from the gamblers who
    were looking to cash in on the rigged Series.   The players were very
    naive about the gambling world.  Once they took the cash, they were
    caught in the trap.
    
    Buck Weaver was the only one of the eight who took no money.
    
    Bob Hunt
    

    Then NOWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    REK

    Bob - Was Buck Weaver ever exonnerated?
    
    Rich
    

>Pretty nice place, but hot as hell in the summertime.  Had some
>of the best peach cobbler I've ever had, in a restaurant down
>there....


Geez 'Saw, throw in a cup of joe, and you're Special Agent
Dale Cooper, right out of Twin Peaks...

Mike

Gee Mike, I've never seen that show.  But I've heard that when
it comes on next season, they'll repeat all the episodes from
this season....

I always wanted to be a special agent....


Sign me,
Agent Chainsaw, FBI*


that stands for Female Body Inspector....

Saw,

Try to catch the 2 hour intro.  Probably the most bizarre show I've
ever seen on TV.  I'm sure Adolph, Elvis and the rest will enjoy it.

Mike

I'll invite them all over to the house.

FWIW, Jimi Hendrix thinks that Shoeless Joe should be in the HoF.
He says that all the musicians up there think that...

Adolf doens't really care, because he prefers soccer.

And Elvis...well, Elvis is heavy into NASCAR these days.  He's
pulling for Earnhardt, Bodine, and Elliot.  (but not necessarily
in that order).

Don't get excited, but the rumor is that Lou Gehrig might come
over for dinner next week.  If he does, anything you wanna know?


latered,
'Saw

    No, Buck Weaver was never reinstated in organized baseball.   He tried
    to have Landis hear his appeals many, many times.   His claim was that
    he never took any money and played each of the games to win.
    
    But Landis refused to reinstate him. He stuck by his original premise
    that Weaver knew of the fix and should have reported it.
    
    None of Landis' successors as Commissioner (Eckert, Chandler, and
    Frick) would hear an appeal, either.   Weaver died in the mid-1950s, I
    believe.
    
    It's a shame.  He was a fabulous third baseman with a long career in
    front of him.  Ty Cobb publicly admitted that he would no longer bunt
    for base hits down Weaver's third base line.
    
    Bob Hunt

    "Shoeless Joe" Jackson got his nickname early in his career when he was
    in the minor leagues.
    
    One day, he was trying to play with a brand new set of spikes and he
    developed blisters on his heels midway through the game.  So, he
    ditched the spikes and played in his socks the rest of the way.
    
    And a legend was born ...
    
    Bob Hunt

    
    >     So uhhhh, where does the name 'Shoeless' come from?

    Simply because he was a hick; a farmboy; a hayseed; a sod buster.
    
    Can't say who gave him the name, but I think one time his baseball
    shoes were puttin' an awful hurtin' on them dawgs of his, so he
    took 'em off and continued to play the game wifout 'em.
    
    And if'n dat ain't da troof, it prob'ly sounds good enough to be
    so anyway.  I don't go 'round jist makin' stuff up, y'know.
    
    Dickster
    

    
    'Saw....
    
    >And Elvis...well, Elvis is heavy into NASCAR these days.  He's
    >pulling for Earnhardt, Bodine, and Elliot.  (but not necessarily
    >in that order).
     
    Impossible! I just had my septic tank pumped and the driver drove
    into my driveway hummin' a familiar song. "Goo Suede Shoes" I think.
    Well, after he pumped my tank, I gave him a check. He said, "Thank
    you, Thank you very much", in a low melodic voice. As he turned
    my wife was taken by his jet black hair and the high collar of his
    "Clean Tank" work jacket. 
    
    Then it hit me. Elvis is cleaning septic tanks in Norfolk County.
    
    
    Rich