Conference 7.286::sports_90

rick ellis @geo
    

    For those of you who get Univision on your cable systems, they will be
    showing something like two games every day. 

    Great.  I *love* those Spanish announcers.
    
    Enchilada, burrito, comos esta usted, manana, Don Quixote, ...
    
    GGGGGGGGGGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL !!!!!!!!!!
    
    Great stuff.
    
    Bob Hunt

    Hahahah Steven and Bob.
    
    We Seattle viewers do get Eunichvision.  The announcers are 
    worth what ever they pay them.  
    
    JD

From: [email protected] (Bruce Munro)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.soccer
Subject: England squad for Italia '90
Date: 22 May 90 20:05:10 GMT
 
The England squad for the 1990 World Cup was announced today, so without
further ado here it is:
 
 1: Peter Shilton (GK)	(Derby County)
 2: Gary Stevens	(Rangers)
 3: Stuart Pearce	(Nottingham Forest)
 4: Neil Webb		(Manchester United)
 5: Des Walker		(Nottingham Forest)
 6: Terry Butcher	(QPR)
 7: Bryan Robson	(Manchester United)
 8: Chris Waddle	(Marseille)
 9: Peter Beardsley	(Liverpool)
10: Gary Lineker	(Tottenham Hotspur)
11: John Barnes		(Liverpool)
12: Paul Parker		(Nottingham Forest)
13: Chris Woods (GK)	(Rangers)
14: Mark Wright		(Derby County)
15: Tony Dorigo		(Chelsea)
16: Steve McMahon	(Liverpool)
17: David Platt		(Aston Villa)
18: Steve Hodge		(Nottingham Forest)
19: Paul Gascoigne	(Tottenham Hotspur)
20: Trevor Steven	(Rangers)
21: Steve Bull		(Wolverhampton Wanderers)
 

    A few errors :
    
     6: Terry Butcher	   (Rangers)
    12: Paul Parker	   (QPR)
    22: Graham Seaman (GK) (Arsenal, ex QPR)
                           
    Wayne

Nice to see Steve Bull on the squad.  I never saw him much, because
Wolverhampton never gets much coverage on English League Soccer, but
I have seen him in some highlights on occasion.

Interesting fact:

	The two goalies from the US (Meola and Keller) are 21 and 20 years
	old.  Combined they are exactly Shilton's age (41).....


'Saw

    
    This was extracted from the FOOTBALL conference.
    
                          -< TNT World Cup Coverage >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	Turner Network Television (TNT) has announced its World
	Cup coverage.  It looks like a good excuse for getting
	cable TV.

	Curt



	Fri	6/8	12:00 pm  Argentina v Cameroon
	Sat	6/9	11:00 am  Soviet Union v Romania
		 	 3:00 pm  UAE v Colombia or Italy v Austria
	Sun	6/10	11:00 am  USA v Czechoslavakia
		 	 3:00 pm  Brasil v Sweden or West Germany v Yugoslavia
	Sat	6/16	11:00 am  Brasil v Costa Rica
			 3:00 pm  England v Holland or Sweden v Scotland
	Sun	6/17	11:00 am  Ireland v Egypt
			 3:00 pm  Belgium v Uruguay or South Korea v Spain
	Sat	6/23	11:00 am  Second Round 
			 3:00 pm  Second Round
	Sun	6/24    11:00 am  Second Round
			 3:00 pm  Second Round
        Mon	6/25	11:00 am  Second Round
			 3:00 pm  Second Round
	Tue	6/26	11:00 am  Second Round
			 3:00 pm  Second Round
	Sat	6/30	11:00 am  Quarterfinal
			 3:00 pm  Quarterfinal
	Sun	7/1	11:00 am  Quarterfinal
			 3:00 pm  Quarterfinal
	Tue	7/3	 2:00 pm  Semifinal
	Wed	7/4	 2:00 pm  Semifinal
	Sat	7/7	 2:00 pm  3rd Place Game
	Sun	7/8	 2:00 pm  Final

	All times are EDT
================================================================================
                            -< 1ST Round schedule >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
      Date             Game            Network      Time (EST)
    08-June:    Argentina-Cameron   Univision/TNT     11:45 AM
                      Repeat                          8:00 PM
    
    09-June     USSR-Romania        Univision/TNT     10:45 AM
                UAE-Colombia        Univision          2:45 PM
                Italy-Austria       TNT                3:00 PM
    
    10-June     USA-Czechoslovakia  Univision/TNT      11:00 AM
                Brasil-Sweden       Univision/TNT      2:45 PM           
                
    11-June     England-Ireland     TNT                3:00 PM
                Highlights          Univision         10:00 PM
          
    12-June     Highlights          Univision         10:00 PM
    
    13-June     Argentina-USSR      Univision          2:45 PM
                Highlights          Univision         10:00 PM
     
    15-June     Italy-USA           Univision/TNT      3:00 PM 
                Highlights          Univision         10:00 PM
    
    16-June     Brasil-Costa Rica   Univision         10:45 AM            
                England-Netherlands Univision          2:45 PM
    
    17-June     Ireland-Egypt       Univision/TNT      10:45 AM
                Belgium-Uruguay     Univision           2:45 PM
                Korea-Spain         TNT                 3:00 PM
    
    18-June     Argentina-Romania   Univision           2:45 PM
    
    19-June     Germany-Colombia    Univision          10:45 AM
                Austria-USA         Univision/TNT       3:00 PM
    
    20-June     Brasil-Scotland     Univision           2:45 PM
    
    21-June     Belgium-Spain       Univision          10:45 AM
                Ireland-Netherlands Univision           2:45 PM

    In addition to the games listed in the previous note, all Italy
    games will be carried live by RAI/WNYC.

    GO CAMEROON!!!!
    
    Jump on teh Camoroon bandwagon TODAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    
    
    
    JD

    Acutally Cameroon did very well in the last World Cup.  They have
    a goalie who is simply incredible.  I don't know if you were joking
    about the Cameroon bandwagon or not.

>    Acutally Cameroon did very well in the last World Cup.  They have
>    a goalie who is simply incredible.  I don't know if you were joking
>    about the Cameroon bandwagon or not.
    
    In the 1982 World Cup,Cameroon played the world champion Italians
    to a 0-0 tie.

    Since my favourite sport (by far) ice-hockey is 'dead' now, I'll
    look around in here. Glad to see some hockey folks in this conf.
    
    Only in one aspect soccer looks better to me than hockey: On a WC i
    can route for a team with good chances...
    
    R.

From: [email protected] (United Press International)
Subject: World Cup Rosters
Date: 31 May 90 16:51:45 GMT
 
                            Argentina
                            Goalkeeper
	Nery Pumpido, Sergio Goycochea, Fabian Cancelarich.
                             Defender
	Edgardo Bauza, Nestor Fabbri, Nestor Lorenzo, Pedro Monzon, Julio
Olarticoecha, Roberto Sensini, Jose Serrizuela, Oscar Ruggeri, Juan
Simon.
                            Midfielder
	Sergio Batista, Jose Basualdo, Gabriel Calderon, Jorge Burruchaga,
Diego Maradona, Ricardo Giusti, Pedro Troglio.
                             Forward
	Abel Balbo, Claudio Caniggia, Gustavo Dezotti.
                              ------
                             Austria
                             Goalkeeper
	Klaus Lindenberger, Michael Konsel, Otto Konrad.
                             Defender
	Ernst Aigner, Robert Pecl, Anton Pfefer, Peter Schoettel, Kurt
Russ, Peter Artner, Michael Baur, Michael Streiter.
                            Midfielder
	Manfred Zsak, Manfred Linzmaier, Alfred Hoertnagl, Gerald
Glatzmayer, Andreas Herzog, Andreas Reisinger.
                             Forward
	Anton Polster, Andreas Ogris, Gerhard Rodax, Christian Keglevits,
Heimo Pfeifenberger.
                              ------
                             Belgium
                            Goalkeeper
	Gilbert Bodart, Filip De Wilde, Michel Preud'homme.
                             Defender
	Philippe Albert, Leo Clijsters, Stephane Demol, Jean-Francois De
Sart,  Michel De Wolf, Eric Gerets, Georges Grun, Pascal Plovie,
defender.
                            Midfielder
	Jan Ceulemans, Marc Emmers, Vincenzo Scifo, Lorenzo Staelens, Bruno
Versavel, Patrick Vervoort, Franky Van Der Elst.
                             Forward
	Nicolas Claesen, Marc De Grijse, Marc Van Der Linden, Marc
Wilmonts.
                              ------
                              Brazil
                            Goalkeeper
	Claudio Taffarel, Acacio, Ze Carlos.
                             Defender
	Jorginho, Ricardo Gomez, Branco, Jose Mozer, Aldair, Mainho,
Ricardo Rocha,  Mauro Galvao.
                            Midfielder
	Dunga, Alemao, Bismark, Valdo, Silas, Tita.
                             Forward
	Careca, Romario, Muller, Bebeto, Renato.
                              ------
                             Cameroon
                            Goalkeeper
	Joseph-Antoine Bell, Thomas N'kono.
                             Defender
	Benjamin Massing, Bertin Ebwelle Ndingue, Emmanuel Jerome Kunde,
Jean Claude Pagal, Stephen Tataw Eta, Thomas Libiih, Victor Ndip Akem.
                            Midfielder
	Andre Kana Biyik, Emile Belmont M'bouh, Louis Paul Mfede, Eugene
Ekeke, Cyrille Thomas Makanaky.
                             Forward
	Francois Omam Biyik, Albert Roger Miller, Boneventure Djonkep.
                             Unlisted
	Denis Onana Jules, Alphonse Yombi Ayakan, Roger Feutmba, Emmanuel
Mabdan Kessack, Celestin Jacques Songo'o.
                              ------
                             Colombia
                            Goalkeeper
	Rene Higuita, Eduardo Nino,
                             Defender
	Andres Escobar, Gildardo Gomez, Luis Herrera, Leon Villa, Jose
Perez,  Gabriel Gomez, Carlos Hoyos, Luis Perea, Alexis Mendoza.
                            Midfielder
	Carlos Estrada, Carlos Valderrama, Bernardo Redin, Leonel Alvarez,
Wilmer Cabrera, Freddy Rincon, Luis Fajardo.
                             Forward
	Miguel Guerrero, Arnaldo Iguaran, Geovanis Cassiani, Ruben
Hernandez.
                              ------
                            Costa Rica
                            Goalkeeper
	Gabelo Conejo, Hermidio Barrantes, Miguel Segura.
                             Defender
	Vladimir Quesada, Roger Flores, Ronald Gonzalez, Marvin Obando,
Ronald Marin, Goevany Jara, Mauricio Montero.
                            Midfielder
	Jose Carlos Chaves, Hernan Medford, German Chavarria, Alexander
Guimaraes,  Oscar Ramirez, Miguel Davis, Hector Marchena.
                             forward
	Claudio Jara, Roger Gomez, Juan Arnoldo Cayasso, Jose Jaikel, Roy
Mayers.
                              ------
                          Czechoslovakia
                            Goalkeeper
	Jan Stejskal, Ludek Miklosko, Peter Paluch.
                             defender
	Julius Bielek, Miroslav Kadlec, Jan Kocian, Frantisek Straka, Peter
Fieber,  Vladimir Kinier.
                            Midfielder
	Ivan Hasek, Michal Bilek, Jozef Chovanec, Lubos Kubik, Lubomir
Moravcik, Jiri Nemec, Vladimir Weiss, Viliam Hyravy, Vaclav Nemecek.
                             forward
	Tomas Skuhravy, Ivo Knoflicek, Milan Luhovy, Stanislav Griga.
                              ------
			       Egypt
		            Goalkeeper
	Ahmed Shobeir, Ayman Taher, Sabet El Batal.
                             defender
	Ibrahim Hassan, Rabie Yassein, Hany Ramzy, Hesham Yakan, Hossam
Hassan, Ahmed Ramzy, Saber Eid.
                            Midfielder
	Ashraf Kasem, Ismail Youssef, Magdy Abed El Ghani, Tarek Soliman,
Taher Abou Zeid, Alaa Maihoub, Magdy Tolba, Osama Oraby.
                             forward
	Gamal Abed El Ghani, Ayman Shawky, Adel Abd El Rahman, Ahmed Abdou.
                              ------
                             England
	Peter Shilton, Chris Woods, David Seaman.
                             defender
	Gary Stevens, Stuart Pearce, Des Walker, Terry Butcher, Paul
Parker, Mark Wright, Tony Dorigo.
                            Midfielder
	Neil Webb, Bryan Robson, Chris Waddle, Steve Hodge, Paul Gascoigne,
Trevor Steven, Steve McMahon.
                             forward
	Peter Beardsley, Gary Lineker, John Barnes, David Platt, Steve
Bull.
                              ------
                             Holland
                            Goalkeeper
	Hans Van Breukelen, Stanley Menzo, Joop Hiele.
                             defender
	Berry Van Aerle, Frank Rijkaard, Henk Fraeser, Graeme Rutjes, Danny
Blind.
                            Midfielder
	Ronald Koeman, Adrie Van Tiggelen, Jan Wouters, Erwin Koeman,
Gerald Vanenburg, Richard Witschge, Aron Winter, Johnny Van't Schip.
                             forward
	Marco Van Basten, Ruud Gullit, Willem Kieft, Bryan Roy, Hans
Gillhaus, John Van Loen.
                              ------
                             Ireland
                            Goalkeeper
	Patrick Bonner, Gerard Peyton.
                             defender
	Christopher Morris, Stephen Staunton, Michael McCarthy, Kevin
Moran, David O'Leary, Christopher Hughton.
                            Midfielder
	Ronald Whelan, Paul McGrath, Raymond Houghton, Kevin Sheedy, Andrew
Townsend, John Sheridan, John Byrne, Alan McLoughlin.
                             forward
	John Aldridge, Anthony Cascarino, Bernard Slaven, Niall Quinn,
Francis Stapleton, David Kelly.
                              ------
                              Italy
                            Goalkeeper
	Walter Zenga, Stefano Tacconi, Gianluca Pagliuca.
                             defender
	Franco Baresi, Giuseppe Bergomi, Luigi De Agostini, Ciro Ferrara,
Riccardo Ferri, Paolo Maldini, Pietro Vierchowod,
                            Midfielder
	Carlo Ancelotti, Nicola Berti, Fernando De Napoli, Giuseppe
Giannini,  Giancarlo Marocchi.
                             forward
	Roberto Baggio, Andrea Carnevale, Roberto Donadoni, Roberto
Mancini, Salvatore Schillaci, Aldo Serena, Gianluca Vialli.
                              ------
                             Romania
                            Goalkeeper
	Silviu Lung, Bogdan Stelea, Gheorghe Liliac.
                             defender
	Mircea Rednic, Michael Klein, Ioan Andone, Iosif Rotariu, Gheorghe
Popescu,  Adrian Popescu, Emil Sandoi, Ionut Lupescu.
                            Midfielder
	Gheorghe Hagi, Dorin Mateut, Daniel Timofte, Ilie Dumitrescu, Danut
Lupu, Ioan Ovidiu Sabau, Zsolt Musznay.
                             forward
	Marius Lacatus, Rodion Camataru, Florin Radu Raducioiu, Gavrila
Balint.
                              ------
                             Scotland
                            Goalkeeper
	James Leighton, Andrew Goram, Bryan Gunn.
                             defender
	Alex McLeish, Richard Gough, Maurice Malpas, Murdo Macleod, Gary
Gillespie, Craig Levein, Stewart McKimmie, David McPherson.
                            Midfielder
	Roy Aitken, Paul McStay, James Bett, Stuart McCall, John Collins,
Gary McAllister.
                             forward
	Maurice Johnston, Alistair McCoist, Gordon Durie, Alan McInally,
Robert Fleck.
                              ------
                           South Korea
                            Goalkeeper
	Kim Poong-Joo, Jeong Gi-Dong, Choi In-Young.
                             defender
	Park Kyung-Joon, Choi Kang-Hee, Yoon Deuk-Yeo, Chung Yong-Hwan,
Chung Jon-Soo, Gu Sang-Bum, Hong Myung-Bo.
                            Midfielder
	Noh Soo-Jin, Chung Hae-Won, Hwangbo Kwan, Lee Sang-Yoon, Lee
Heung-Sil, Cho Min-Kook, Lee Young-Jin.
                             forward
	Byun Byung-Joo, Lee Tae-Ho, Choi Soon-Ho, Kim Joo-Sung, Hwang
Seon-Hong.
                              ------
			    Soviet Union
			     Goalkeeper
	Rinat Dasaev, Viktor Chanov, Alexandr Uvarov.
                             defender
	Vladimir Bessonov, Vagiz Khidiyatullin, Oleg Kuznetsov, Anatolyi
Demianenko, Sergei Fokin, Sergei Fokin.
                            Midfielder
	Vasily Rats, Valery Broshin, Andrei Zygmantovich, Igor Shalimov,
Sergei Aleinikov, Gennadyi Litovchenko, Alexandr Zavarov, Ivan
Yaremchuk.
                             forward
	Oleg Protasov, Igor Dobrovolskyi, Alexandr Borodiuk, Akhrik
Tsveiba,  Vladimir Liutyi.
                              ------
                              Spain
                            Goalkeeper
	Andoni Zubizarreta Urreta, Juan Carlos Ablanedo Iglesias, Jose
Manuel Ochotorena Santa Cruz.
                             defender
	Miguel Porlan Noguera, Manuel Jimenez Jimenez, Genaro Andrinua
Cortabarria, Manuel Sanchis Hontiyuelo, Enrique Sanchez Flores, Rafael
Alcorta Martinez,  Fernando Ruiz Hierro, Alberto Gorriz Echarte.
                            Midfielder
	Rafael Martin Vazquez, Fernando Gomez Colomer, Francisco J. Perez
Villarroya, Roberto Fernandez Bonillo, Rafael Paz Marin, Miguel Gonzalez
Martin del Campo.
                             forward
	Miguel Pardeza Pichardo, Emilio Butragueno Santos, Jose Maria
Bakero Escudero,Julio Salinas Fernandez, Manuel Sanchez Delgado.
                              ------
                              Sweden
                            Goalkeeper
	Sven Andersson, Lars Eriksson, Thomas Ravelli.
                             defender
	Jan Eriksson, Glenn Hysen, Peter Larsson, Roger Ljung, Roland
Nilsson,  Niclas Nyhlen, Stefan Schwarz.
                            Midfielder
	Leif Engqvist, Klas Ingesson, Ulrik Jansson, Anders Limpar, Joakim
Nilsson,  Glenn Stroemberg, Jonas Thern.
                             forward
	Tomas Brolin, Johnny Ekstroem, Mats Gren, Mats Magnusson, Stefan
Pettersson.
                              ------
                       United Arab Emirates
                            Goalkeeper
	Abdullah Moosa Abdullah, Abdulqader Hassan Mohamed, Muhsin Musabbah
Faraj.
                             defender
	Khaleel Ghanim Mubarak, Mubarak Ghanim Mubarak, Yousuf Hussain
Mohamed.
	Abdulrahman Mohamed Al Haddad, Ibrahim Meer Abdulrahman, Mohamed
Salim Mubarak.
                            Midfielder
	Ali Thani Jumaa, Abdullah Ali Sultan, Abdulrahman Mohamed Abdullah,
Fahad Abdulrahman Abdullah, Eissa Meer Abdulrahman, Hussain Ghuloum
Abbas, Hassan Mohamed Hussain, Nasser Khamees Mubarak.
                             forward
	Fahad Khamees Mubarak, Khalid Ismail Mubarak, Abdulaziz Mohamed
Ali, Adnan Khamees Al Taliyani, Zuhair Bakheet Bilal.
                              ------
                          United States
                            Goalkeeper
	Tony Meola, Kasey Keller, David Vanole.
                             defender
	Steve Trittschuh, John Doyle, Jimmy Banks, Michael Windischmann,
Brian Bliss, Desmond Armstrong, Paul Krumpe.
                            Midfielder
	John Harkes, Marcelo Balboa, Tab Ramos, John Stollmeyer, Chris
Henderson,  Paul Caligiuri, Neil Covone.
                             forward
	Christopher Sullivan, Peter Vermes, Eric Wynalda, Eric Eichmann,
Bruce Murray.
                              ------
                             Uruguay
                            Goalkeeper
	Fernando Alvez, Eduardo Pereira, Adolfo Zeoli.
                             defender
	Nelson Gutierrez, Hugo De Leon, Alfonso Dominguez, Jose Herrera,
Felipe Revelez, Jose Pintos.
                            Midfielder
	Jose Perdomo, Santiago Ostolaza, Enzo Francescoli, Ruben Paz,
Carlos Correa, Pablo Bengoechea, Sergio Martinez, Ruben Pereira.
                             forward
	Antonio Alzamendi, Ruben Sosa, Carlos Aguilera, Daniel Fonseca,
William Castro.
                              ------
                           West Germany
                            Goalkeeper
	Bodo Illgner, Raimond Aumann, Andreas Koepke.
                             defender
	Stefan Reuter, Andreas Brehme, Juergen Kohler, Klaus Augenthaler,
Guido Buchwald, Thomas Berthold, Paul Steiner, Hans Pfluegler.
                            Midfielder
	Pierre Littbarski, Thomas Haessler, Lothar Matthaeus, Uwe Bein,
Andres Moeller, Olaf Thon, Guenter Hermann.
                             forward
	Rudi Voeller, Frank Mill, Karl Heinz Riedle, Juergen Klinsmann.
                              ------
                            Yugoslavia
                            Goalkeeper
	Tomislav Ivkovic, Fahrudin Omerovic, Dragoje Lekovic.
                             defender
	Vujadin Stanjkovic, Predrag Spasic, Faruk Hadzibegic, Davor Jozic,
Robert Jarni, Mirsad Baljic, Dragoljub Brnovic.
                            Midfielder
	Robert Prosinecki, Andrej Panadic, Refik Sabanadzovic, Srecko
Katanec, Zoran Vulic, 10. Dragan Stojkovic.
                             forward
	Safet Susic, Darko Pancev, Zlatko Vujovic, Alen Boksic, Dejan
Savicevic, Davor Suker.

Can anyone tell me why Steve Nicol isn't on the Scottish team?

thnks,
FrankWa

    He wasn't good enough?

Subject: World Cup by the Numbers
Date: 31 May 90 17:36:17 GMT
 
	12 Italian host cities.
	24 teams.
	52 games between June 8-July 8.
	22 players on each team.
	528 total players.
	41 referees and linesmen.
	102 teams who participated in qualifying.
	312 qualifying games.
	732 goals scored in qualifying rounds.
	45,000 law enforcement officials.
	58 first-aid stations in the 12 stadiums.
	111 doctors in 12 stadiums.
	135 nurses in 12 stadiums.
	677 stretchers in 12 stadiums.
	89 ambulances to serve 12 stadiums.
	7,000-plus media members accredited.
	10,998 seats for written press in 12 stadiums.
	7,864 telephones in the press boxes.
	1,240 press seats for photographers.
	1,440 places on fields for photographers.
	4,935 press seats for TV and radio reporters.
	1,038 TV screens in press centers and press rooms.
	2,046 telephones in press centers and press rooms.
	165 telex machines in press centers and press rooms.
	152 fax machines in press centers and press rooms.
	10 million sheets of paper on reserve.
	582,730 seating capacity for 12 stadiums.
	2.6 million tickets available.
	20 billion-26 billion TV viewers expected worldwide.
	147 networks to carry games.
	118 nations in 5 continents to televise games.
	(Source: Italia '90, the World Cup Organizing Committee)

    Re:.18
    He isn't Scottish?

re .19, .21...

No, he is Scottish.  He was playing for the team when they were playing
the qualifying rounds.  I was watching one of the games in France,
Scotland vs France, and recognized the guy.  I just couldn't place
which team he played for.  It took me a while but it dawned on me
he plays for Liverpool.

Last I knew he was in good health, and I was curious why he wasn't
on the squad.

The Dutch team is looking awfully good on paper too....

'Saw

    I think we need a WORLD CUP COMPETITION!!!
    
    (But I need a sponsor in the US to coordinate) 
    
    'Saw, did I hear you volunteer??  That's great!!  Thanks
    
    As chief-coordinator and head rule-maker (or rool-fixer) -should
    that be (tm)ed??- I'll let you choose the format, but there are
    sufficiently few games so that all entrants should be forced to
    pick a winner for every game.  (Not unlike Sean's NCAA Hoop Tourney)
    
    What do you think??  I'd do it myself, but I have to wash my hair
    tonight!!
    
    PJ

Gee PJ, I don't even know all the pairings.

Let me think about it tonight.  If you see a note in here tomorrow, 
then you'll know I decided to do it.

Who's gonna donate a prize, and what's it gonna be?

'Saw

re:a few back




Indeed Steve Nicol is a scot,One of there few world class players
But unfortunately he was withdrawn due to injury...
He is undergoing an operation.........



ACE......


p.s Liverpool F.c the worlds greatest soccer team...

I reckon that since (FOR ONCE THANK GOD) a major sporting event is taking 
place on this side of the pond, someone over here should donate the prize.

Since it's summer and the Festival season is upon us, how about tickets to 
the Jazzzzzz Festival in Montreux??

This is a grand idea:  The winner gets the tickets for nothing, but has to
pay $1,400 to fly his wife and self over here, plus hotel and beers.

Let me know

rick ellis

    'Saw
    
    I'll get you the pairings and between Rick and me we'll get
    a prize that is worthy of such a Tournament.  (How about two tickets
    to the Rolling Stones at Wembley Stadium!??)
    
    Call me when you get a chance (DTN 7830-5727  -  Enterprise House,
    London) and I'll give you details
    
    PJ
    
    (Consider this peer pressure!!)

�Indeed Steve Nicol is a scot,One of there few world class players
�But unfortunately he was withdrawn due to injury...
�He is undergoing an operation.........

�p.s Liverpool F.c the worlds greatest soccer team...


Thanks ACE, for the update.

BTW, I agree with you about Liverpool 100%!!!!!!

'Saw

    Agree about Liverpool as well. Too bad they could not participate
    and beat up AC Milan (aka Holland-backbone)
    
    R.

I've received the pairings for the Cup.

I'll enter the contest rules tomorrow.  First games start on Saturday.


'Saw

    Yep, and Austria will beat Italy! You heared it here first!
    
    R.

    Looks like Diego Maradona is trying to stir things up in Italy.
    
    He said of the hosts. 
    
    "They talk too much, they should shut up. They are telling everyone how
    they will win the World Cup. I never said anything like that before
    Mexico and we still won. They should let their game do the talking.
    
    
    Lets keep this note about soccer and not were men and you're sissies.
    

    Ol' Diego ain't a bad talker himself either....but then he has
    the football skills to back it up. He will be playing today for 
    Argentina against the Cameroons...opening games are usually 
    boring draws but this time I think Argentina will sould a warning 
    to other teams by winning easily by 3 or 4 goals. Btw the forecast 
    is for rain...but I'm sure the *wimps* will endure it :-)
                  
    - Dave K.

    I'm not to sure about Argentina. I think that there might be a shock
    in store for ol' Diego "I want to play Vollyball" Maradona.
    Wayne

    
    Yeah,Diego had his moment in the ole' spotlight.I dont expect much from
    Argentina....I certainly dont expect them to play as they did in
    Mexico86.They may get by Cameroon,by a goal and only one,but I doubt
    if they get through the second round.Me, I'm leaning towards West
    Germany or Holland to win the whole enchilada.
    
    Sepp Meier

    IF England get throught the early round O.K., watch out for them.
    People don't expect too much from them this time, so they have
    nothing to lose.
    
    England - W.Germany final 

Personally, I've never liked bravado, which is why I'm not a 
big Diego Maradona fan.

Rain could be the big equalizer...it makes the gazelles a little
more human.

I'd like to see England do well too.  Holland is looking awesome
(is Gullit in good health?) and West Germany is always a force.

Should be very interesting,
'Saw

    I'm no fan of Maradona either, but you have to admire the guys skill,
    detrmination and courage.
    
    The guy has pain killing injections before and during every game.
    I read a report that the cortisone he has will cause a 'hump' on
    his back, and that in 2-3 years, he could be a cripple in a wheelchair
    because of his back problems.
    
    He has no financial need to play, and he has played and beaten the
    best, and won all the major trophies.
    
    What do you think drives a guy to destroy himself like that ?
    He must really love the game.
    
    Wayne

    I saw an interview with Diego on Univision a couple of months back. He
    was talking about how he just plain loves to play. He loves to compete
    against the best. He said he'd play as long as he could contribute to
    the team he happens to be on. 
    
    the devil dog
    
    P.s. When asked who would win the cup (outside of Argentina) he said
    Brazil.

    Diego's dedication reminds me that of Pele's.Of course you can't
    compare the two,Pele' being the greatest ever.Pele' was brought up
    playing the sport with a grapefruit and it wouldnt surprise me if 
    Diego played under similar conditions. They tried extra hard at the
    one thing they were good at,and it paid off for them.They owe alot
    to the sport of soccer,it's been good to them,so I can see why their
    love for the game and dedication runs so deep.Play on,Gentlemen!
    
    Stephan

    Cameroon just scored a goal even though they are a man down. 
    
    Looks like JD may have been right.

    Spoiler warning
    
    
    
    
    CAMEROON 1 ARGENTINA 0
    
    it is final!!! looks like the champs need a gut check before they play
    the Ruskies

Un-freaking-believable!!!!!!!

    YAHOOO!!!!!
    
    Jump on the Camaroon bandwagon NOW!!!!!!  No stomping the boys
    now!!!
    
    Camaroon ALL THE WAY.  Bloody Argies bite the dust.
    
    JD the ULTIMATE CARNAC of sports...
    

    My wife lost a filling yesterday, and had to go to the dentist.  I
    suggested she go at lunch today, and I'd come home to watch our
    daughter.  HEH, HEH, HEH!!!  It just so happened the World Cup
    was on at that time, and I got to see the whole game!
    
    Cameroon deserved the victory.  They carried the play to Argentina
    all day, kept Maradona from doing anything, and counterattacked
    beautifully.  Francois Omam-Biyik scored on a header in the 66th
    minute on a shot the Argentine keeper should have smothered, but
    it deflected off his knee into the net.  The goal came five minutes
    after a Cameroon player received a red card for a new infraction in
    World Cup play:  if a player is fouled on a clear breakaway, it is
    an automatic red card.  But this was clearly NOT a breakaway, and
    should have been a big break for Argentina.  But they didn't take
    advantage.  Cameroon also lost a second player to another red card
    with a couple of minutes left.  
    
    What an upset!!! What a way to start the Cup!!!!!!!
    
    NAZZ

    Lucky guy NAZZ.  It seems like there's alot of short-handed
    goals.  I guess that gives the mental advantage to the
    short-handed team if there real competitors.  What I would
    give to watch the whole World Cup!
    
    Keep the Havenots informed, will ya?
    
    Cowboy
    

    I'm VERY sorry, guys, for my typo in .33
    
    Of course i'meant, Kamerun will upset Argentina, not Austria will
    upset Italy... 8:) 

    Cameroon 1   Argentina 0
    
    Simply amazing,but not that surprising. According to reports, Diego
    Maradona was frequently fouled but otherwise quiet throughout the
    game.
    
    The man made too much of a name for himself.....sounds like Cameroon
    had his number the whole game. Dont think it'll get any better for him.
    
    Go FDR! 
    

    Italy 1 - Austria 0
    CSFR 5 - USA 1
    Romania 2 - USSR 0
    Germany 4 - Jugoslavija 1
    Brasil 2 - Sweden 1
    Colombia 2 - United Arab Emirates 0

    Whenever Maradona got near the ball he got hacked. Some called, some
    not. Cameroon was real aggressive on D, and converted a free kick into
    a goal. The Argentines deserved to lose. I am hoping they will rebound
    against the Russians.

    Will anyone in here be able to provide updates on Ireland-England today 
    (3 PM EST start)?
    
    
    Thanks,
    Paul 

    I will.

    For those interested in the Ireland England match today, read ahead.
    
    Place:  Sit n Bull, Maynard
    
    Time:  3:00 today
    
    The game will be broadcast there.  The Guinness will be flowing. 
    Ireland will have a LARGE backing, as all the DECcies who are relocated
    here will be there.  If you go, you must wear the colors.
    
    RTG

    England-Ireland Prediction............2-2
     
    Italy-8  U.S.-0
    
    Alemania all the way!

I thought the US team looked worse than I imagined they would be. They seemed
to be a good 2 steps slower and a good 3-4 passes behind the Czechs. I figured 
with the youth on the team they would at least be able to do a decent job of 
man to man marking but they were often 10-20 yards away from their respective 
men. Meola played well but the defense in front of him was awful. He often
resorts to punching the ball to clear it which I haven't seen another keeper
do in the cup yet.The defense looked like they were playing a zone at times 
which is a sure way to allow quality shots on goal against the calibre they 
are playing against.

They should get better with experience but they've a long way to go before they
even think about pulling an upset victory.

Offensively they really don't string together the passes and seem to allow
1 man to go off on long runs with no support too often. Their set plays on
free kicks looked decent but they lack anything on corners.


MY $.02,

      Metz

I'll have a tough time picking who to root for in the England - Ireland
matchup.

There are players on both squads that I really like.


And yes, the US didn't look good.  But consider this:

	They are the youngest team in the Cup.  Most coaches like
	the average age to be 27, yet the average age of these kids
	is 23.

	Playing at top level competition like this is actually the
	best thing in the world for them.  They will look bad
	now, but if two or three more key players can obtain slots
	on European teams over the next four years, that will go
	a long way towards helping them mature.

	We have a good goalie.  If Meola can get on a European
	team, then his skills will only increase.  There are some
	players who could also benefit.

	I also thought our goal looked good.  (That made my day
	in fact, since I didn't think we'd score....)


	Italy will take this team apart, but the experience gained
	will be good, and hopefully they will learn what they aren't
	quite doing right...

'Saw

    As far as Meola is concerned, I doubt if he'll be doing much more
    goaltending. Report is that he signed or will sign a contract with the
    NY Yankee baseball Org.
    Can anybody elaborate for me if you've also heard this?

    Re: .60
    
    I heard the same thing but wasn't sure it was the Yankees.  He's put
    his pro baseball career on hold until after the World Cup.
    
    					Steve

What I heard yesterday was that he was drafted by the Yankees.

He is trying to get signed on with a European team.  I suppose if
that doesn't pan out, he'd go with the Yanks...

That's what I heard.....

'Saw

    According to what I saw of an interview with his parents, Meola would
    like to play soccer in Italy.

    Please, Lord, let Meola find a contract to play soccer in Europe!
    
    Please, please, whimper, whine.........He's clearly the best player
    we've got, and we need him (and any others that do even moderately
    well) to play in a competitive league so our team can improve. 
    They sure won't do it playing here!
    
    Getting the goal was more than I expected this team to be capable
    of doing, although 5-1 was worse than I expected.  The rest of the
    defense needs to get its act together, badly.  Our passing was pretty
    poor, too.  Still and all, I wasn't disappointed - we looked better
    than we did during some of the friendlies.
    
    A&W 

I would have been satisfied with 3-1.  I think the two 
goals on corners were pretty cheap to give up.

And I keep forgetting, we were down a man.  I'm still wondering
what possessed that ref to pull the red....

'Saw

    Costa Rica 1 Scotland 0
    England-Ireland 1-1 late in second half
    Lineker 8' Sheedy '72

    I'm not surprised Costa Rica beat Scotland.  I just widh the US had
    been placed in that group!  Or in Group F, with England and Ireland.
    IMHO, Group A is the toughest of all, and Groups C, E, and F the
    easiest.
    
    NAZZ

    Final Ireland-England 1-1

    The England - Ireland game was one of the worst I saw lately.
    Desolate kick. And Scotland ... oh boy.
    
    All of them will not go very far without a miracle, considered the
    good quality of play of {Italy, Germany, Romania, Jugoslavija, Brasil}.
    
    And Holland did not play yet.
    
    R.

    COPIED WITHOUT PERMISSION FROM THE TIMES.
    BY SIMON BARNES
    
    The USA has a problem about the nature of masculinity. Like all other
    nations. And as with most nations,, many questions about the nature and
    definition of masculinity are tied up with sport. Why is football not a 
    popular in the states? because, simply enough, too many people think
    that the game is effeminate. It is foreign, mostly appreciated only
    by Americans of Italianand south American origin, and it has  been 
    accepted as a safe sport. "Sarkar", as the game is called over there,
    is seen as a sport with the heat turned off: a game for for schoolboys
    and college kids who do not wish to face the horrors of playing the
    grid iron game. But small men can play soccer and win.
    	Americans also believe F1 motor racing is effeminate: the Indy
    cars, speed without finesse, are the thing over there. Meanwhile,
    the English believe merely that creative football is effeminate. Hoddle
    and Waddle are  regarded with horror in some circles, if not as fair
    game. 
    	Yet in Naples, where they believe that real men shoot goldfinches,
    Maradona, sublimely creative, is worshipped as a masculine godling, not
    least by himself. But  in the States, no doubt they would call him a
    faggot. All of which leaves us with the ludicrous spectacle of the
    United States Sarkar team playing football here in a state of
    desperation: desperate not to look silly. They feel the enormous weight
    of the World Cup of 1994 on  their shoulders, an event, which, of
    course, and even more ludicrously, will be in the US. Their match yes-
    terday was a masterpiece of incongruity.
    
    The artical goes on with a discription of the game and end with this::
    
    The United States had sand kicked in their faces. Or as the gentleman
    from Zurich sitting beside me drily remarked:"this is not a game for
    body-builders."
    

There was a good article in yesterday's Hartford Courant which
dealt with Sunday's loss.  It also talks about improvement and
what needs to be done.

If I remember I'll bring it in and post it.

It's unfortunate that people tend to make sweeping generalizations
about the US and their attitude towards soccer.  In Connecticut
there is a major youth soccer movement, at the high school and
college level it is a big sport.  There are amature leagues all
over Connecticut.

There are people, like myself, who are big soccer fans, and eat it
up whenever we can.  

Our biggest failing is our not having a pro-league.  Oh, we have one,
but it isn't very big, nor very well supported.  I think this directly
relates to TV and our stupid (IMO) commericalism patterns.  It would
be great if a station (ESPN) would carry soccer in a format where
the game could be maximized and commerical interruption minimized...
that might help.


We get bashed a lot, and it's due us, I suppose in relation to soccer.
It'd be great it we decided to have a World Basketball Cup, or a
World Baseball Cup, or a World NFL Cup, because we'd kick ass from
here to China and back.  But that still wouldn't get us a good
soccer program.

We're not as far away as most would think.  Pretty much the last piece
in the puzzle is a good professional league....I just hope we can
get that someday....

'Saw

      
    'Saw
       I know what ya mean. It's a good thing none of us make sweeping
    generalizations about other countries. [ BIG :^> ]
    
    Bull~
    

    Enjoyed the article. Maybe something to it.
    
    Just a little by-info for those who never played soccer on a
    competitive level:
    I played both ice-hockey (so-called masculine) and soccer
    ('effeminate') on a competitive level (that is, in a league).
    Just looking at the seriousness of my injuries, not to speak of
    my general 'impressions' I got I can tell you a secret:
    
    Soccer is MUCH tougher to play. This is why I quit soccer and
    play on ice-hockey. Sure there are other reasons. I just prefere
    hockey.
    
    R. 

Basically, I tend to disagree with the reason for soccer not
being big here is that it's a wimpy sport.

I truly believe that our system of television does not work
well with a non-stop game like soccer.  If you can't garner the
TV support, you won't make money, no money, no survival...

We have excellent players at the college level.  Theres a lot
of enthusiasm at a younger level too.  To compete at the world
level, however, we need a pro league.  Only that kind of seasoning
would allow us to compete with the top teams.

In the meantime, hopefully our kids will be able to get jobs
in Europe.  That might help...


Rainer, I agree, soccer is pretty deadly sometimes.  The actions
that take place in the goal mouth are pretty hairy at times....

'Saw

    Baseball,hotdogs,applepie.....thats what I think the American sport
    mentality basically is.They dont want to support any foreign type
    sports.....Thank God for our youth to hopefully vitalize the game.
    I was born the first generation American in our family,my Mother 
    being from Idar-Oberstein,W.Germany and my Father being from a 
    small town in Bavaria.Soccer was the only sport my father raised me
    in. Hell, I wasnt even interested in playing other sports as I grew 
    older and to the day I'm still bouncing around in the nets.
    I support anything to do with soccer,thanks to my background.But
    what do you expect from Soccer,Bratwurst,Apple strudel?
    

    We've all been hearing about this so-called American soccer boom at the
    youth level for many years now.
    
    I played soccer on a youth team around the same years that I played
    Little League baseball.   That was back in the late 1960s and early
    1970s.   We had all the basic equipment, good fields, interested
    parents, got to travel to interesting states to play in tournaments,
    end-of-the-season banquets, and so on ...
    
    And this was more than 20 years ago.  And they said it was a "boom"
    then.   So why are we still in a growing "boom" now and we are the
    laughingstock of the rest of the soccer world ???
    
    Because there is no widespread public *PASSION* over the sport in this
    country.   It seems like every red-blooded male in this entire country
    parks his tush in front of a tube on a fall Sunday afternoon at 1:00pm
    to watch his beloved NFL team play.   The World Series occupies the
    entire nation's attention for a week and a half in October.   The Super
    Bowl is the closest thing we've got to an undeclared National Festival
    Day.
    
    When I see this country get as excited about the World Cup Final as it
    does about a Super Bowl, then and only then will I be convinced that
    the "boom" has ended and that soccer has arrived in this country.
    
    When I see more fans on average show up for high school soccer games
    than for corresponding football games, then I'll pay attention.
    
    When I walk into a sporting goods store and see for sale every
    imaginable piece of clothing like sweatshirts, shorts, T-shirts, socks,
    caps, and shoes plus trinkets like bumper stickers, ash trays, beer
    mugs, pennants, key chains, and pen and pencil sets all adorned with a
    soccer team's copyrighted logo, then I'll wake up.
    
    *** When I see fans killed in the stands, then I'll take notice. ***
    
    There is no passion for the sport in this country.  Until there is, the
    best we can hope for is a once-in-a-lifetime "Miracle On Grass" similar
    to what the 1980 Olympic team puled off on ice.
    
    For what it's worth ...
    
    Bob Hunt
    

      
    re .72
    
    See, even the Brits have figured out thast soccer is played by wimps
    in the US.  We get sand quicked in our face (as the note says) and
    nobody gives a damn.
    
    re youth soccer:
    
    Youth soccer is for kids with parents too wimpy to let them play
    real football.
         
    
    BOSS
   

    Absolutely right, Bob.  I also played soccer as a kid in the '60s at
    the Y on saturday mornings, but nothing more after that.  And this
    latest soccer boom is merely just a fad.  I really thought that it was
    finally taking-off in the last few years, but youth soccer cannot match
    the popularity stronghold of baseball, basketball, and football.
    
    Someone already mentioned it, that only a strong marketing scheme can
    boost soccer right up there with the big 3......
    
    H�wk

    re No Boom. 
    
    I played soccer up until I was in 9th grade. Our team was one of the
    best in the state and we were expected to  do well in high school.
    I was also playing football, and we  had one of the better teams in the
    city and were expected to do well in high school. When I had to choose
    between soccer and football the choice wasn't too difficult to make.
    Soccer had their groupies but football had the whole school. After
    three years of football I was all league and our team never got past
    the first round of the state playoffs. Our soccer team won the state
    championchip once, and reached the semi's the other two times. Who got
    more publicity?  We did.  Football is America. 
    
    I still enjoy playing soccer 'tho. 
    
    Bruce did have a point, we got our asses kicked and nobody seemed to
    care. Hopefully someday this will change.

    BOSS???  Get off the couch and your hand outta the potato chips
    and smell the coffee! Real football IS soccer,nobody bright enough
    could think of another name for your"sport"?. How about "Pauseball",
    or maybe even "Timeoutball" something real macho like that.  You must have
    played it as a youngster, am I right?....................figures.
    
    
    Go Alemania!
    

    Sometimes I think the only reason we don't like *real* football
    in this country is because it isn't played by genetic mutants........
    
    A&W 

    Wen Nike markets "Air Maradonna's", that's when soccer will become
    big.
    
    When Soccer becomes trendy, so that the Yuppies flock to it, that's
    wehn soccer will become big.
    
    When A soccer player learns to say "Maloderous", that's when soccer
    will become big.
    
    When Topps markets Soccer Cards, that's when soccer will become
    big.
    
    When little kids run around with 'kyle Rote, Jr.' shirts, that's
    when soccer will become big. 
    
    When the big Thanksgiving day tradition is watching the local high
    schools play a soccer game, that's when soccer will become big.
    
    When soccer team cheerleader's put out posters, that's when soccer
    will become big.
    
    When Hollywood makes a soccer movie, soccer will have made it.
    
    When all the men in this country become wimply poofders, that's
    when soccer will become big...
    
    JD

My high school was double state champs this year in football and
in soccer.  The neatest thing about that was that the football team
was very strong in support of the soccer team and vice versa.

I've seen people go nuts over soccer at the college level.  Go to
a UCONN soccer game sometime.  I'd say the fans are every bit as
supportive as at the football games.

I still feel that saying the baseball takes away from soccer is kind
of a copout.   But I agree with the marketing thing.  America is
a country of people who aren't really good at thinking for themselves.
Hey, it's my homeland and all, but I'll be the first to admit that
lately this has been more and more the case.  We're in dire straits
here in this land of ours.

When you have marketing, and make people aware, then things will change.
When you have people who vote for President based on which guy is
more handsome (believe me I've heard that reason) then you'll see just
what marketing is.

Why is Indy racing so big and F1 not?  Well, for one thing Indy racing
has big sponsors, a lot of exposure, and the indiscriminating common
man can't tell the difference between an F1 rocket and an Indy car.

Soccer has a small following, but it does have a following.  Everything
in this country that has to do with sport basically comes down to money.
(cf College sports, pro sport, the relationship between etc etc etc)
When that small following is able to support a pro league, things will
change.  When things change, then you'll see more interest nationwide,
probably because the sheep of this country will see it as a trendy
thing to do....


just some more opinions....
'Saw

    Soccer will never be a major sport in the US because it doesn't provide
    the instant gratification that Americans must shoot up on to get their
    jollies in sport. Listening to the US first game was interesting- the
    announcers were completely at a loss to describe the action. They were
    muttering inanities and trying to provide football like coverage,
    instead of shutting up and letting play develop on the field. I imagine 
    the sponsors were frustrated by the lack of breaks for commercials,etc.
    
    Another reason is that pro sports in the US are already interminable.
    Another major sport would simply have no room to fit. Too bad, we're
    missing out on a great game.
    
    Chris
    

    
    
     Final Score :   Belgium   2   South Korea   0
    
        Two second-half goals.

    I do

    I played high school soccer because I was too small for football.
    I learned to play the game quite well and developed an appreciation for
    it. I can remember many "discussions" we would have with the football
    players. We'd say "just wait 10 years" and soccer will be on par with 
    all the other games. The rest of the world couldn't be wrong?
    Well....it's more than 10 years later and....?
    
    We were briefly buoyed by the soccer fad of the late 70's when a
    Cosmos' ticket was the hottest thing in New York,but the sobering
    events of the 1980's proved that soccer will be nothing more than a
    niche sport in this country.
    
    It will have a decent following,but it will NEVER touch the big 3
    of baseball,basketball and football. The reasons were explained by
    'Saw,JD,Bob Hunt and Bruce and while I don't totally agree,it is clear that
    the generation that played youth soccer will grow up to like the game,but
    pay to see football,baseball and basketball instead.
    
    I do think that for 6-13 year olds soccer is a far superior activity to
    football and equally as good as baseball. Until we get a successful
    professional league,which is likely never,than soccer will never be
    anything more than a sport that has lots of followers,but not enough
    fans.
    
    And a personal note:While I still enjoy kicking a ball around,I am
    more likely to play touch football,softball or basketball.While I
    will watch some world cup games,if it came down to Portland-Detroit or
    the USA-Italy,well....
    
    that's what VCR's are for.

    
    	So what if soccer isn't a US passion?  
    
    	Do we really care what some goober in the stands of a WC
    	game thinks of us?
    
    	Our country has different sports interests than other
    	countries right now.  If soccer were as popular as
    	baseball, we'd have a good WC team.  But it's not,
    	so we don't.......
    
    	Claybone

    Soccer is more popular in the states with a decent climate and they
    leave hockey to the nawtherners.
    
    In the Phoenix area, kids are started in soccer at younger ages than
    baseball.  We're talkin' organized leagues all across the valley.
    
    Mike

    Before leaving Europe to come to the US I was offered a contract
    to play for Servette which the pro team in Geneva, Switzerland.
    
    I have noticed that there is little passion for soccer here but
    it can be simply explained. There is no money in Soccer. You do
    not see commercials with soccer players, magazines with cover stories
    on soccer, or hear aboout pro opportunities as you do in the rest
    of the world.  If one beer company would sponsor soccer the way
    they do Football, Basketball, or Baseball we would not be having
    this conversation.
    
    In the US it is very simple: if you can't make money at it noone
    cares.

   JD

   I think your list of `Soccer will become big when such-and-such
   happens' is sorta cart-before-the-horse kind of thing. Those are the
   type of things which would happen IF soccer became big; and it's
   unlikely that it will become big due to the body of tradition and lore
   which accompanies the U.S.'s  major sports.

   The U.S. sports `mind-set' has evolved over generations. In Football
   you can look back at the heroes of sports from Jim Thorpe to Jim Brown,
   from Dick Butkus to Lawrence Taylor. In Baseball there is a rich
   history, and you can pick the heroes of every generation from Shoeless
   Joe and Ty Cobb and argue today about Don Mattingly or Wade Boggs.
   Same goes for Basketball. These sports have evolved over time, and are
   uniquely American.

   Soccer is not going to become big, nor is Cricket, Lacrosse, Caber
   Tossing or Hackensack. There may be fads, and spurts of interest at the
   national level, and there will always be a hard core minority of
   afficianados who shake their heads in disgust at the ignorance of their
   fellows who fail to appreciate this `marvelous, exciting, skillful,
   blah blah ad infinitum, ad nauseum' sport.

   The majority of the wimp and sissy remarks are mostly good natured
   razzing in an attempt to get a rise out of the supporters (works, too).
   I, for one, do not consider soccer a wimp sport.... but I also doubt
   very seriously that I will ever develop much of an interest in it.

   Mike JN

    One thing that does puzzle me about soccer's lack of popularity
    is this - we are a nation of immigrants and somewhere along the
    line, many immigrants, in attempt to become Americanized, lost their
    interest in soccer.  I don't completely understand why this happened,
    though.  I see the big interest in the World Cup in the
    Italian-American population, the Hispanic population and so forth,
    but why not some of the other immigrant groups?
    
    John

    
    >   Soccer is not going to become big, nor is Cricket, Lacrosse, Caber
    >   Tossing or Hackensack.
        
    Hackensack is pretty big in New Jersey, but the rest of the country
    (and probably the world) thinks it stinks.
    
    Glad to shlep.
    
    Dickster
      
    

    Latest Score :   Holland     1  Egypt       0
    
                         Kieft 58'
    
               

John --

They haven't lost their interest.  Look in any area where there
is a high ethnic population, and you'll find ethnic soccer clubs.
Connecticut has three divisions worth, First, Second-North, Second-South.

I've seen these teams play and they play quite well.  Perhaps these
leagues fulfill the interest that lack of a pro-league neglects....

'Saw

    
    
    
    
    From the Soccer Notes Conference:
    
     Final Score  :   Holland     1  Egypt       1
    
                         Kieft 58'      Abedel Ghani 82' (pen)
    
        Comment      :   Egypt had four very good chances in the 2nd half
                         which they missed. Holland were not very
    impressive
                         at all.
    
    

        
>    *** When I see fans killed in the stands, then I'll take notice. ***  <
                                                                            
    
    Bob, didn't you hear about the 37 Italians killed at Heysel Stadium
    by Liverpool supporters??  or what about the 97 killed at Hillsborough
    during last season's FA Cup semi-final???   TAKE NOTICE.
    
    
    re:.86
    'saw,
    	Wasn't that the same UConn team that was beaten by my very own
    Colby College White Mules in the ECAC Div 2 Championships back in
    1979 ???   I think so!!!
    
    PJ

    I suggest to close the case of soccer in the US. Many good points
    have been made. Nobody should tell the people of another country :
    "You should regard this and this sport as the greatest". Nobody
    should disqualify a sport he/she does not know (wimpy etc.). Simply,
    nobody should regard his/her environment/country as the "world".
    My opinion to that.
    
    One nice thing about soccer (not my favourite sport) is:
    
    You can gather 20 to 30 teams from all over the world and let them play
    each other and still you get pretty even games (Egypt tying Holland,
    Kamerun beating the defending champ. Argentina and so on). That is
    somehow 'rich', isn't it. Much talent all over the world.
    
    I wish I could see that on my favourite sport ice-hockey as well,
    instead of the perennial dominance of a few, who use to roll over
    the (small) rest. Chainsaw, wouldn't it be nice if a game Whalers
    against the , say, Plovdiv Flyers of Bulgaria was a nail-biter?
    
    In that aspect soccer is indeed a world sport, other than football,
    baseball, hockey. Still, I dont say the US should adopt it ...
    
    R.
    

    I forgot to add:
    
    	TENNIS IS WHIMPY YUPPIE CRAP !!!
    
    
    R. (who is sooo glad that they start to trash Becker and Graf)

    JohnH, regarding why so many immigrants and still no soccer
    popularity......
    
    A few reasons that I can think of, being a 1st generation American:
    
    - When immigrants come to America, they are typically poor.  They see
      the opportunities, and work their cahunas and cajones off.  This does
      not leave much time to spend with the kids.  My dad was the typical
      immigrant- worked 12+ hours a day.  When I was very young, I'd only
      see him in the mornings before I went to school.  My dad only came
      to *1* of my games- a CYO hoops game when in high school.......
    
    - Because immigrant parents work long hours, not having much leisure
      time with their kids, the kids are left to `socialize' with the
      neighborhood `American' kids.  What are the neighborhood kids doing?
      Playing baseball, basketball, and football, the way their fathers
      and grandfathers taught them.  No soccer ball in sight.  Even if the
      immigrant kid is old enough to have learned and played some soccer,
      he probably didn't have a ball himself, and if he did, the
      neighborhood kids wouldn't be interested anyway.......
    
    Now, as you can see, the above is relating my experience as an
    immigrants' kid, born in the mid-50s.  Maybe immigrants coming over
    today don't have to work as hard as immigrants of many decades ago, or
    maybe they have more time with their kids, I don't know.  But I do know
    why me and other immigrants' kids my age, and older, have become so
    Americanized so soon......
    
    God bless America!  (And I say that in all sincerity!)
    
    J�nos  (for Bull~!)

    After seeing the first group games over the last four or five days,
    I feel safe in reinforcing my prediction that WEST GERMANY will
    win the World Cup.
    
    To date they are the only team that has actually 'played' a game.
    All the other teams seem to have 'labored' through their matches.
    They looked comfortable passing, had confidence to attack the
    opposition, and most important, seemed to have the 'will to win'.
    The only other team that came close was Italy (but their 'will to
    win' is prompted by the knowledge that there are men with machine
    guns surrounding the stadium!!)
    
    Furthermore, I suggest you keep an eye open for the West German
    #10 - Matthaus (pronounced Mat-teus).  I predict that he will be
    the tournament's top scorer.  In the German win over Yugoslavia,
    he scored twice with long-range shots (made even more remarkable
    by the fact that he scored one with his left foot and the other
    with his right!!)
    
    Remember where you heard it first....
    PJ

    About the german win: Your words in god's ears, as we say here.
    
    In fact, the looked good, but it is a bit early to rule the others out.
    
    R.

    re: .100
    
    UConn hasn't been a Division 2 school in soccer for years and years.
    They won the Division 1 National Title in 1981.  You may be thinking
    of Connecticut College, a small private school down around New London
    because there's no way UConn would have played in the ECAC Division
    2 playoffs.
    
    John

    From .100 ...
    
>> >    *** When I see fans killed in the stands, then I'll take notice. ***  <
>>                                                                            
>>    
>>    Bob, didn't you hear about the 37 Italians killed at Heysel Stadium
>>    by Liverpool supporters??  or what about the 97 killed at Hillsborough
>>    during last season's FA Cup semi-final???   TAKE NOTICE.
 
    I know all about the violence in the stands at soccer matches in
    Europe.   My family has very close friends in Sheffield and we were all
    very relieved to know that they were unhurt during the Hillsborough
    disaster last year.
    
    You missed the context of my point completely.   My point was that
    there is no passion for soccer in the United States at this point in
    time.  And that *when* I see fan violence in the stands at a soccer
    game in the United States, then I will take notice that a passion for
    the sport has arrived here in the United States.
    
    No doubt that there is a passion for the sport in England.   It's a
    matter of life and death.  No such feelings exist here.   Mind you, I'm
    not advocating fan violence as a measure of a country's interest in a
    sport.  Only using it as a point of comparison between European and
    American fans of the sport.
    
    Does this help ???
    
    Bob Hunt
    

Thanks John, you beat me to it...8^)


Rainer, you made some excellent points.  However, I would like to 
point out that I still love to watch Steffi Graf play.  I get
tired of hearing Monica Selles grunt, and after seeing Steffi's
picture in Sports Illustrated, I was wondering if you could possibly
get me a date with her.  I've been brushing up on my deutsche, and
I think I could spend an enjoyable evening with her, and take her
mind off the high pressure of competitive tennis 8^) 8^) 8^) 8^)


Very suprised about Holland.  I thought we'd have heard more of Ronald
Koeman too....

'Saw

    'Saw, sure, if you get me Meryl Streep (sp?) in exchange. I guess she
    needs some relief from public pressure as well. And don't worry,
    Steffi knows the basics of the english language... 8:)
    
    And she is not to blame that she plays tennis (yucc!!).
    
    R.  

    Re .107
    
    My Dad lives in Germany, and work on the Canadian Forces Base there.
    I seem to remember reading an article in the Stars and Stripes that
    the U.S. is starting to see its share of violence in and around
    sports venues. This was last September. Can anyone confirm this
    for me ?
    
    Re the rest.
    
    I don't think that anyone is saying that the U.S. *has* to take
    soccer to heart. If it takes off in a big way then great, but if
    it doesn't, then you guys will regularily miss out in an event
    that I believe is the best sporting event of all. No politics,
    no boycotts, no arguments about 'professionalism', few, if any,
    drugs scandals, just good (mostly) football.
    
    Its not yet part of your tradition, and one thing I've noticed
    about Americans(as a rule) is that, like the Russians, you tend
    to ignore sports that you are not among the best at, and concentrate
    on sports you are among the best at. 
    
    As has been said, this comes down to the dollar on the bottom line.
    I am not saying that this is a bad thing, it sort of makes sense.
    I wish companies in this country would put just one tenth the amount
    American companies put into sport.
    
    I hope that it is not too long before the U.S. are able to compete
    at the top, because I for one, am fed up with defending you (Being
    a Canuck in exile, as it were.)
          
    Wayne.
    
    P.S.  Canada did better in Mexico !
                                       

re Rainer:

	Well, Meryl is married, BUT she does live in Connecticut,
	so we might be able to work something out...8^)

re .-1:

	Well put!

    Anyone interested in more news about the World Cup should take a
    look at conference BALZAC::FOOTBALL
    
    PJ

    < Note 245.112 by YUPPY::STRAGED "enihcaM ruoY nI renosirP A" >
                          -< More World Cup views... >-

>    Anyone interested in more news about the World Cup should take a
>    look at conference BALZAC::FOOTBALL

    NOTES>MODIFY ENTRY FOOTBALL/NAME=SOCCER
    
    Mark.    

    Was glancing through a newspaper article the other night about the
    Cameroon win over Argentina, and it focused on witchcraft, and how
    Cameroon players believe it helped them win.  And not only the Cameroon
    team, but others as well.  The article also mentioned some of the
    unusual practices of players and/or teams in past competition, one of
    which really cracked me up.  It said how 3 Nigerian player were banned
    for life from soccer because of urinating on the field before the game! 
    Evidently, this was some sort of a cleansing ritual!  Either that, or
    some weed-killer company sent some "scouts" out to the game....  :-)
    
    H�wk

�    Its not yet part of your tradition, and one thing I've noticed
�    about Americans(as a rule) is that, like the Russians, you tend
�    to ignore sports that you are not among the best at, and concentrate
�    on sports you are among the best at. 
          
    Wayne

   I think that is only human nature, and there is nothing uniquely
   American or Russian about it. 

   If you have a real knack for woodworking, you don't start a hobby
   repairing automobiles.

   Mike JN

    The day soccer is fully accepted in the US is the day you can readily 
    obtain soccer cards for fun and amusement only.
    
    NAZZ

    I'm not talking about baseball cards (tho that would be cool);
    what I meant was the football cards that show up in the fall,
    where you select a certain number of teams and receive a reward
    for picking all the games correct.  Ties lose.
    
    		4 games = 10 points
    		5 games = 15 points
    		6 games = 25 points
    		7 games = 35 points
    		8 games = 50 points
    		9 games = 100 points
    	       10 games = 200 points
    	    9 out of 10 = 20 points
    
    NAZZ

    Argentina is up 1-0 10 minutes before half-time.

            FINAL  SCORE
    
            Uruguay  0   Spain  0

    Final Score :   Argentina   2  USSR       0
    
                        Half-Time 1-0, Argentine goalkeeper carried off
    after
                        10 mins, Russian player sent off early in second
    half.

    Argentine keeper sustained a double fracture of his right leg in the
    first half.  I guess his back-up did pretty well. 
    
    Uruguay missed a penalty kick in the second half, late, to prevent a
    victory.
    
    Anybody else come into work early today so they could take off at 2:30
    to watch USA-Italy?  My 8 year old son asked me who I'd be rooting for,
    since I'm second generation Italian-American.  I told him that for
    every other game they play in the World Cup I'll root for Italy, but
    today I'm an American rooting for the USA.  Realistically, I'd love
    to see them keep it down to 3 or 4 goals.  And if the US can score
    against the Azzuri, it would be a major triumph.  An outright victory
    will make the Cameroon upset pale by comparison.
    
    NAZZ

    Early prediction:
    
           Italy-6     USA-0
    
        
                          I'm being nice about it too!......unfortunately.

    2-1 Italy.
    
    The US is much better than they showed on Sunday.

    RE:123 
       
         You better go back to your boss and see if he'll let you take 
    tomorrow off early.The way my schedule reads is that the USA-Italy
    game is on the 15th at 3:00 EST on Univision.Would somebody please
    confirm this with me,"I'D" hate to be the one that misses the damn game.
                        
    GO ALEMANIA!!

I'm a realist.

This will be the final nail in the USA's coffin.

Italy, 5-0.


Now, the dreamer in me can easily see a sterling defensive performance
by the youngsters, where they hold Italy to 1 goal.  Late in the 
first half, the USA ties it on an interception and a beautiful finish
by Tab Ramos.  

Midway through the second half, Caligiuri is hacked in the area, and
converts the penatly kick.  The USA defense becomes a stonewall.

As time runs out the USA turns in the UPSET OF THE CENTURY, winning
2-1.

But, hey, if you believe that will happen, I'll tell ya all about
my date with Steffi Graf this weekend, when I come in on Monday 8^)

    re-.125
    
    I doubt if the US squad has enough confidence left to prove if they 
    can play better.Your gonna see the whole team playing defense tomorrow
    and it still wont keep the Italians out of our net,but believe me I'd
    love to see the game end 2-1.Even if Italy would win,the U.S. would
    still be victorious in their own right.
    
    W.Germany-World Cup Champs 1990

    USA 1-0.  You hoid it here foist.
    
    
    Yo Steph, my little bro will tape the game, so if'n ya cain't get the
    time off, I'll loan ya da tape.
    

    Tainks Jesse...............But I have a vcr myself so I plan on taping.
    Tricky part is gettin outta here without hearin' the score.I hate
    watchin' games with the outcome already published.You will not see me
    in the notes tomorrow afternoon,thats for shore!
    
    But 2-1 U.S.A.??????? C'mon Jesse,get serious.Not even in their wildest
    wet dream!!!!!
    
    FDR..All the way!!!!

    Anybody know when Brazil plays again, I think there playing Costa Rica?

    I'm driving the Brazilian bandwagon all the way to the title.

    Also anybody have complete schedule when and where games will be played
    between June 23 to July 8. I'm going to be in southern France and northern
    Italy in that time frame. Don't think I'll have a chance of getting a 
    ticket to get into a game but I will want to be near the action. 

    If you have a schedule and don't want to enter it send me mail we can
    work something out.

Chuck

Naples 6/23 4pm  -------------------  
Bari   6/23 8pm
Genoa  6/23 4pm
Turin  6/24 4pm
                     Second Round
Milan   6/24 8pm
Rome    6/25 8pm
Verona  6/26 4pm
Bologna 6/26 8pm  ------------------

Rome  6/30 8pm
Florence 6/30 8pm     Quarter Finals
Naples   7/1  4pm
Milan    7/1  4pm  ------------------

Naples 7/3 7pm        Semi Finals
Turin  7/4 7pm  --------------------

Bari 7/7 7pm  (3rd place playoff)

Rome 7/8 7pm      FINAL



Teams yet to be determined,

have fun in Europe (bring me back a blonde, please 8^)

'Saw

    Anyone got a game update?

     Romania 1  Cameroon 2
    
        Cameroon are the first team to progress to the second phase!
    
        Can they beat USSR and go through with 6 points!!
    
        Who predicted that?
    
                  

    Cameroon is the only team in World Cup history never to have lost a
    game in their appearances in the final rounds.  Four years ago in their
    only appearance they tied all three opponents but failed to reach the
    second round.
    
    Go 'roon!
    
    Charles

    Yugoslavia also beat Colombia I think 2-0 or 2-1.
    

Subject: Africans call for more World Cup berths
Date: 14 Jun 90 19:05:05 GMT
 
	PALERMO, Italy (UPI) -- With African countries showing themselves to
be the equal of their European counterparts through the early days of
the World Cup, Egypt's coach is calling for greater representation from
his continent.
	Cameroon has been the surprise of soccer's showcase event through
the first week of competition, upsetting defending champion Argentina
and defeating Romania to lead Group B and win a place in the second
round. Egypt, meanwhile, caused a stir by tying Holland 1-1 in its
opening Group F match.
	``We're about at the same level as Europe,'' said Egypt Coach
Mahmoud El Gohary, who has taken Egypt to the 24-nation tournament with
a squad of mostly amateur players.
	El Gohary now says it's time to make the World Cup allocation more
equitable than its current format, which gives Europe 14 berths in the
tournament an Africa just two.
	``There are about 12 very good teams (in Africa) and two
participants in the World Cup is not enough,'' El Gohary said, listing
Zaire, Zambia, Algeria, Tunisia and the Ivory Coast as teams worthy to
represent Africa. ``I think the African nations should have more chance
to participate in the World Cup.''
	African nations have been clamoring for greater representation in
the tournament for the last 20 years.
	Joao Havelange was elected FIFA president in 1974 largely on the
backing of third world countries after promising them a greater say.
That included a promise to increase African representation in the
finals.
	But when the number of participants was raised from 16 to 24 for
the 1982 World Cup in Spain, Africa's share only went up from one to
two.
	African nations have shown throughout the 1980s they cannot be
taken lightly in soccer. Cameroon never has lost a game in two World
Cups, including this year, and Morocco won Group F in the 1986
tournament in Mexico.
	``I'm not surprised at our success,'' El Gohary said. ``We have
worked like professional players for the past four months and the last
three games showed that.''
	In its final warmup to the tournament, Egypt beat Yugoslavia and
Scotland and tied England.
	At the FIFA Congress in Rome just before the start of the World
Cup, a resolution from third-world countries asking for an increase in
the number of teams they can send to the tournament was defeated.
	A FIFA spokesman said Thursday that soccer's world governing body
was adopting a wait-and-see policy regarding Africa.
	``There is no doubt that FIFA has been discussing the matter for
some time,'' said the spokesman, who asked not to be identified. ``But
FIFA is not really in a position now to give a comment on the future
participation of African teams in the World Cup finals.
	``They have played one game and it is premature to say what will
happen in the remainder of the tournament. We will see how good the
Africans have played when the tournament ends.''
	African delegates also maintained pressure for FIFA to accept only
one British team in the World Cup. Currently, FIFA recognizes soccer
federations from England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, with
each allowed to qualify as a separate entity. In 1986, England, Scotland
and Northern Ireland all qualified for the tournament, with England and
Scotland again represented at Italia '90.
	The FIFA spokesman said African participation would be discussed at
the next FIFA executive board meeting in December at Zurich,
Switzerland.
	``Let's just say that the pressure on the field grows,'' he said.
	El Gohary believes if Africa is to enhance its reputation, it will
have to allow professionalism so that standards may be improved.
	``I hope the Egyptian players will play professionally,'' he said.
``It will improve the game. If we don't change the rules in Egypt to
allow professionalism, I would prefer our players to go to Europe.''
	El Gohary admitted Egypt's players were limited in some areas, most
notably in tactical thinking.
	``With another four or five months of practice, perhaps we could
change tactics during a match,'' he said. ``Now we can't.
	``But Holland had to change its tactics two or three times Tuesday
because they are not used to playing African or Arabian teams.''

	Italy 1 US 0

	Nazz called me with the final score just now. He said the US played
well, and almost tied the game with about 15 minutes left...

JimH

    The U.S. played better today and the Italians,well they've had better
    days. We really werent a threat the whole game although we had one hell
    of a chance to tie it in the second half but fell short. The score
    should really have been 2-0,but one of the It. players hit the 
    goalpost on an 11 meter free kick. We might still have a chance
    but we'll have to score many goals and beet Austria.Fingers are
    crossed.
    
    Go Alemania!

    US played pretty well indeed, had the chance to tie. Italians were
    pretty
    nervous in the final minutes.
    
    Those Kamerun guys, eh? It is not such a miracle, though. Most of them
    are playing as pro's in Europe. And they are in a weak group. I did
    not expect Argentina and the USSR to be that bad.
    
    'Saw, now that I know that Meryl is living in Conn., my plans to visit
    you get more concrete ...8:)
    
    R.

    Hey Saw,
    
    On the strength of your dream about winning 2-1, and only losing
    1-0, why don't you call Steffi and ask her for a date ?
    
    Wayne ;-)
    
    P.S. Well done U.S.A. !  I know that Italy didn't play as well as
    they could have, but maybe the Americans didn't let them !!! 
    A moral victory. What is your media saying about this ?
    

    Still don't know about the printed media, but our TV guys (and we) were
    a bit impressed. From the quality of play I have to say that they can
    play with the big guys. England or Ireland did not look any better, for
    example. As said before: The greatest thing about soccer is the fact
    that you can collect up to 40 national teams all over the world and #1
    possible can not simply walk over #40. No other sport can provide such
    a global 'talent density'.
    
    R.

I too would consider a 1-0 loss to the Italians a moral victory.

I'm sure it did much to boost the team's confidence.  I'm not harboring
any delusions about advancing, but in a way we kind of offset the
heinous loss to the Czech's the other day.

I was very pleased.

So, on the basis of that, Wayne, I will call Steffi up tonight, confessing
my undying attraction, and ask her out on a date, Chainsaw-style.
(Rainer, do you have any neat little things I could say to her in 
German to impress her?  I'm sure my remarks about fahrvergn�gen wouldn't
do it.....)


Yahoo!  It's Friday....
Chainsaw

    >> I too would consider a 1-0 loss to the Italians a moral victory.

    >> I'm sure it did much to boost the team's confidence.  I'm not
    >> harboring any delusions about advancing, but in a way we kind of offset
    >> the heinous loss to the Czech's the other day.

    >> I was very pleased.
    
    Dare we even think of it ???  Could this possibly have been the
    unthinkable, the unmentionable, that most heinous of of all events ???
    
    Might we have just seen an "excellent loss" ???
    
    Bob Hunt

I too was entertained by yesterday's morale victory by the Americans.

The Italian fans, who started off by whistling every time the Americans touched
the ball, ended up sliding down in their seats quite a bit as the Americans
put up a good effort.  Find it quite a contradiction to see the Italian player
nimbly leap over the American in the Penalty Area when he had a chance to score
(and did for the 1-0), but the other Italian nimbly dove to the ground for the
Penalty Kick when it suited him.  I must confess it was good to see him hit the
post right afterwards.

Good to see the Cameroons get through - I hope this means that some other teams
- the Latin ones in particular - will have to stop diving all over the place
and play a bit tougher.

re .144

I too love the truly international aspect of Football, but, Jesus, they made a
mess of the Star Scrambled Banger last night before the game!!!

re .146

'Saw

Nope, the farverguoppie line won't get you far...

How about:  Wie geht's mein kleines Kn�del? (couldn't find the damn Umlaut)
which means How goes it my little dumpling.  Since it doesn't make much sense
to a German, she'll sort of look at you trying to figure out what you mean,
cock that right arm (and Steffi has quite a right) to slap you thinking it's an
insult, and then, at the last second be swept off her feet by the charm of this
foreigner with his limited knowledge of her language.

I'm sure that you'll agree from your time over here that nothing charms a girl
like a foreigner with a limited command of the lingo and a nice accent!!

'avagooweeken

rick ellis

    re: -1
    
    Perhaps just a "satisfying loss".
    
    For those of you who care, the British press had the following to
    say about the US team (I am paraphrasing here....)
    
    Despite inexperience and technical limitations, the US frustrated
    the Italians by getting back and defending quickly and by harrassing
    the midfield players.   Given the performance on the field, it was
    agreed that the scoreline was fair although it would have taught
    the Italians a lesson if the US had scored a late equaliser.  
    
    Most people agree it was not the Italians best performance, but in the
    World Cup you only get one chance...it is not a best of seven series
    (a la NBA or World Series).
                                                                
    
    Basically.....THE YANKS DONE GOOD!!!.......It should give them
    confidence for the game against Austria and they demonstrated they
    do deserve their place in this World Cup.
    
    PJ  (with help from Dopey the Penguin-Poker)

    More match reports can be found on the Soccer Conference titled:
    
    		BALZAC::FOOTBALL
    
    In particular, see notes 469.46  and .47 for the USA v Italy game.
    
    PJ

    Frank,
    
    Rick beat me to it: Nothing is more overwhelming (a girl) than a little
    accent! So just talk to her on the phone as the words flow out of your
    mouth, that will work. Avoid the 'Kn�del', though!
    
    R. (where exactly is Meryl living ? ...8:))

    Can anyone please tell me when W. Germany is playing again? I heard
    that their next match would be against the Arabs but have no idea
    when or if it's being televised.
    
    Vielen Dank!
    

Yeah, I figured I'd better avoid the Kn�del remark.  I've had
them before (I like them, but can't imagine comparing Steffi with
them 8^))

I'll just use some of the boyish-Chainsaw-charm, and see how that
works.

Re Meryl -  I'm not exactly sure what town she lives in, but it's
in the southwestern part of the State.  (I probably knew which 
town at some point, but just can't think of it now.)  At any rate,
she is reported by townspeople to be very down to earth, and just
a normal person who goes about her business in a normal way,
without a lot of glitz and hype.

(BTW, quite a few "stars" live in Connecticut.  Paul Newman, 
Gary Burghoff [Radar from MASH], George C Scott, Jason Robards,
Susan St James, Tom Cruise...)

So, I'll just call up Steffi this weekend, and see if she can
fit me into her busy schedule...

'Saw

W. Germany vs UAE, 15 June 8pm

    
    
> do you have any neat little things I could say to her in 
> German to impress her?
  
    Carry a wad of bills in one pocket, and a roll of quarters in the
    other.  Money talks in all languages.
    
    Glad to help.
    
    Dickster
    

    The West Germany game is NOT on TNT.  Next game on TNT is Saturday
    at 11 AM - Brazil vs Costa Rica.  Also on TNT Saturday is Sweden vs
    Scotland at 3 PM (both times EDT).
    
    NAZZ
    
    BTW - The Italian keeper was lucky his butt was big enough to deflect
    Vermes' rebound shot, or the US would have eearned a tie.  And earned
    was the operative word.  Italy had few scoring chances, and displayed
    none of the crisp passing and incisive attacks of their first match.
    

    Final Score :  Austria  0  Czechoslovakia  1
     
    First half: WG 3 UAE 1
    

    Brasil 1 - Costa Rica 0 (pitiful)
    England 0 - Holland 0 (pitiful)
    Ireland 0 - Egypt 0 ( ditto)
    Germany 5 - UAE 1 (entertaining)
    Belgium 3 - Uruguay 1 (most exiting game so far)
    Scotland 2 - Sweden 1 (nail biter in final minutes)
    
    also Spain beating Korea
    
    R.

Did anyone see the foul that caused the disallowing of England's
"winning" goal in injury time?

I saw the replay several times, yet couldn't spot anything.  Did
any of you see it????

Chainsaw

    Yo Chainsaw, da ref ruled offsides. That shot was almost as good as
    South Korea's goal on Sunday. DAT dude hit a rocket.

    Re Frank you beat me to it, I couldn't see what the alleged infraction
    against England was.
    
    What happens if the last two Group F games are ties and all four teams
    have 0 wins - 0 losses - 3 ties and 0 goal differential?
    
    Agree 100% with Ranier's assesment of this weekend's action.  While
    there have been a few exciting early round games there has also been
    much overly conservative (read: boring) play.
    
    
    py

    
    
    If there is nothing to differentiate between the teams, they draw
    lots.
    
    When they finish drawing, then they start painting.  The ones with
    the best paintings go through to the next round.
    
    PJ

I also agree with Rainer's comments except for one:  the Ireland/Egypt session
was the biggest snoozer I think I've ever seen, much more boring than
England/Holland and Brasil/Costa Rica.  I came close to actually dozing for
the first time!!

And PJ, they used to paint but this year they changed it:  In view of the
host country and recent events, they now throw a Hooligan into the middle of
the pitch and bop him to death with the ball, similar to Christians vs. Lions.

However, I suspect this won't be necessary as one of the four teams should
awake Thursday.

rick ellis

I though England played a quite creative game but lacked finishing touch. 
Holland looked pretty awful with many shots from 30 yards and further. Not much 
chance of those going in against a keeper like Shilton. Ruud Gullit definately 
isn't match fit yet.

I'm pretty sure that the foul the ref called was that one of the English players
was holding a Dutch player by the shirt or shorts preventing him from moving 
into the free kick and blocking it. I couldn't tell if that shot went through
the wall or around it. If it went around the wall then the keeper should be shot
for not even reacting to it.....


BTW- The US played quite well vs. Italy. As I thought they can play defense if it
is the only thing they concentrate on. It's when they try to play any sort of 
attacking game that they fall apart. Although Italy played down to the US the
game did save face for the Americans...


Metz

    I think the problem with Englands goal not allowed was neither a foul
    nor an off-side. As far as I know it was an indirect free-kick (2
    players have to touch the puck ... ahhh ... ball) instead of a direct
    shot, which actually happened. Too bad. I would really like to see
    Holland drop out early, because our boys always had/have trouble with
    them, should they meet in this tournament.
    
    Germany keeps on to look good, but it is getting clear that this is
    the easiest group, so everything is still relative. Those shorthanded
    Belgiques, eh?
    
    R.( who knew that Meryl was that way ...)

    Re: England's disallowed goals.
    
    The first was handball against Lineker
    
    The second was, as noted, because the ref awarded an *indirect* free
    kick, Pearce, wimp that he is, blasted it at about 200mph, but the
    stupid Dutch goalie didn't touch it, so... no goal. 
    
    Peter

    Interesting discussion topic on Pearce's disallowed goal.  It was
    clearly an indirect free kick.  And the goal was rightly disallowed
    because no one touched it on its way into the net.
    
    Here are some questions however:
    
    	Did Pearce know it was indirect?
    	Was he hoping for a deflection (either from the wall or the
    keeper?
    	Why did the keeper even make an effort if he knew that a direct
    kick would not count?
    	Does Jessica know that Chester is sleeping around?
    	Does Chainsaw really have an orange jock?
    
    Inquiring minds.....haven't been seen around here!!
    PJ

    Another early prediction time!
    
          Alemania 3 - Colombia 1 
       ----------------------------
          USA      1 - Austria  1
    
    
    Alemania all the way!!!!

I have to tell the truth -- I don't have an orange jock.

But, the leprechaun I see outside on St Patrick's Day does ;^)

'Saw

    After this World Cup is over I expect the U.S. to go
    all out to field a top-notch soccer team.  Since we
    will be hosting the '94 WC its just good politics to
    also have a "real" team.  Look for some corporations
    to donate whatever the team needs to attempt to build
    the world's best.  Also, the new fad will be to play
    soccer, to be soccer-wise, to support "our" national
    team.  Maybe a new league, nation-wide, will form to
    help train the WC team.
    
    I had a vision...
    
    Cowboy

    Re. -1:
    
    I predict just the opposite.  The Corporation running soccer in the
    US has treated the top players shabbily.  I predict that the majority
    of the players currently on the US national team will be playing in 
    Europe next year, making two and three times as much as they would if
    they stayed on the national team.  There will still be a national team,
    and they'll play some international matches, but mostly they'll play
    against college teams and maybe some ASL sides.  The team will be made
    up mostly of second stringers and retreads.  When it comes time to
    re-form the national team for the 1994 World CUp, there will be much
    dissention among the players, and the US soccer association will bar
    some of the best athletes from competing for the national team.
    
    Just a prediction - hope I'm wrong.
    
    NAZZ

    Argentina 1 - Romania 1
    USSR 4 - Kamerun 0
    
    I think:
    
    For reasons of business (Maradona in Napoli ---> Argentina attractive
    there; who cares about the few romanian and russian fans) they saw
    Argentina struggle and tried to cheat the opponents (Kamerun had 2
    players sent off, USSR was not granted a penalty kick despite of
    a blatant handball of Maradona - who else -).
    Yesterday the ref (triggered by some 'interested persons' in the
    background) tried everything to help a poor argentinian team with
    a poor star Maradona to beat a superior romanian team with an excellent
    star Haghi, in order to let them win the group and thus stay in Napoli.
    Didn't work, i'm pleased.
    
    The victim of that cheating are the soviets, though. Yesterday they
    cut back Kamerun to their appropriate size.
    
    My opinion.
    
    Predictions: Nothing specific right now, but sure enough it will be 
    a european World Champion. South America did not show much.
    
    R.

    
    
    I am glad someone else has noticed the bias on behalf of the officials
    in the WC.  It is disgusting to see it at such a high level.  The
    only time I haven't seen bias is when two European cuntries are
    playing.
    
    Nadeem

    Didn't the U.S. team play this morning?  Any score?

	Austria 2, United States 1

    Italy 2 - CSFR 0
    Colombia 1 - Germany 1 (did not see that, thank god)
    
    Italy played very well, but again, at 1:0 Italy, CSFR scored a legal
    goal, but it was disallowed because of offside. It was not offside
    by lightyears. Italy was the better team, but that goal probably could
    have turned this game around. Speculation, but I feel 'they' take no
    chances: The want to have a semi-final round of Italy, Argentina,
    Brasil and Germany, because of the $$$.
    Well, I want to have a semi-final of Belgium, Scotland, CSFR and
    Germany. Will call some of the refs ...
    
    R.

    
    
    Germany 1 Colombia 1
    
    In brief: ref gives Germany too many favours. Colombians are artists
    and entertainers of the first water. Germany scores on full time.
    Colombia equalise while we're all waiting for the whistle. Fabulous
    stuff. Hope Colombia continue (they're all wimps, of course).
    
    Germany might have been holding back, but without Brehme they looked
    dodgy in defence and the midfield was uninspired.
    
    Italy 2 Czechoslovakia 0
    
    Again ref - unintentionally (he was very good) gave Italy an advantage
    by refusing a perfectly legitimate equaliser. Italy are very good,
    brilliant, in fact. The Czechs were missing their best player and not
    quite fully committed.
    
    
    Austria 2 USA 1
    
    A disgrace. The Austrians were filthy, but. alas, the US not far
    behind.
    
    Austria, who were pathetic against the Czechs, managed to win with 10
    men, which shows how bad the US were.
    
    Yugoslavia 4 UAE 1
    
    As the French say "It's always prettier when it's pointless". 
    
    Peter 

    To be one (or even 2) man/men down seems to be inspiring. The majority
    of the short-handed teams won. And they lost their players pretty early
    in the games, too.
    
    Another thing: I went home from work yesterday with my bike, while the
    game of our team against Colombia was on. The whole scenario was
    'normal', the traffic on the streets etc.
    When I was a kid and a WC game with Germany (back then: West-Germany)
    was on, the streets were empty, no life to be seen on the streets.
    
    I don't complain about the absence of this collective soccer-mania in
    these days (or what collective x-mania ever), what bothers me, though,
    is another change in scenario: Back then every boy on the street played
    soccer, with dirty jeans and bleeding knees and noses. Today, if you
    see them kids at all on the street, you see them nicely (hair)dressed
    heading towards the next tennis court. I once was at a tennis site
    (hate to admit) and heared a boy (about 8) telling his mother, who
    called him for lunch, "no, I can't come, i'm just in a good rythm".
    I would have killed the brat right away.
    
    That are signs of a 'yuppieized', degenerate wimp-society, both
    physically and mentally, if you look at the no-brain Becker. Never
    saw a soccer-goon that stupid.
    
    So much of today's excursion into social criticism. You see the global
    power of soccer? You are immediately into contemplating about the world
    as such! Great!
    
    Back to the peanuts of evry-day-work!
    
    R.

    		That is how I would characterise Team USA.
                
    They came knowing they didn't have a snowball's chance in hell and
    after a nervous start against the Czechs, showed composure and skill
    against Italy and Austria  (well, slightly less composure against
    Austria, but they were provoked).
    
    Although they show the occasional flashes of individual skill and
    teamwork, the team is basically clumsy - which is probably not
    surprising when you realise that they are still learning the game.
    I think the best hope for the future, would be for some of the players
    to get experience in Europe (or South America).  I know that the
    powers that be in he US would prefer them to keep their skills in
    the US, but until there is a well established league, the players
    are better off elsewhere.
    
    Anyway, that's the official PJ verdict....HTH
    
    PJ
    
    PS...Will someone please tell Meola to stop waving his hands and
    get rid off of the ball sooner!!!  He wastes so much time, it allows
    the opposing team time to organise their defense.  Get the ball
    upfield sooner and you catch the other team off-guard!!

I think Meola will someday be a brilliant keeper, say, when he's
had as much experience as Shilton.  I agree sometimes he takes too
long.


re Rainer:

A question... What is the status of the "two" Germanys now.  Is it all
Germany yet?  Is it still West/East?

Also, Rainer, I can tell you why all the kids are playing tennis.
They want to date Steffi, and what better way than by playing tennis. 8^)

Actually, this yuppie-fication phenomenon seems to be world wide, and
it's scary.   I don't see as much sandlot baseball here anymore as
I used to.  (Anybody else notice this, or is it just me?)

And kids are a lot less respectful to parents.  When I was a kid, if
I was within earshot when Mom or Dad called, if I didn't do my best
Bob Hayes (who was the fastest man in the world at the time) impression
trying to get home, there was hell to pay.  If I was out of earshot,
I at least had an excuse....8^)


'Saw

    It's a rare day indeed when you see kids playing a pickup baseball
    game, Frank.  This was an everyday occurence when we were kids.  Now
    it's skateboarding!  Blech.  I do think the activity level of kids
    playing outdoor hoops has increased over the past 20 years though,
    which is a good sign.  This has absolutely nothing to do with
    soccer/football so I'm outta here.
    
    					Steve

    Ya, skateboarding is also one of those things ..., preferably with
    a walkman and sun-glasses ...
    
    Frank, you got me with East/West. Officially it is still that way
    (Otherwise you would see a top center, Andreas Thom, on our team
    in Italy, for example). As of July 1-st there will be the financial
    unification (that is, the Deutsche Mark is the currency all over
    (both) germanies), and we all know what really counts in life and
    politics and sports. So July 1. is a key date. Officially, by inter-
    national law, I see the whole thing take place either late this
    year or early 1991. Anyways, for many of us (including me) the di-
    vision is not existing any more. I personally hope that our neigh-
    bours do not regard this as nationalistic gloating or something, I
    claim that my joy about the developments is simply normal.
    
    Kids playing tennis to date Steffi: Well, you beat me, there are more
    important and nicer things than sports ...8:).
    
    Back to the topic: Now the real tournament is about to begin (a few
    first rounders are still due, including the decision who plays whom
    in the play-offs). Imagine: Those are best-of-one play-offs! Pretty
    tough to have one bad day and it is bye-bye.
    
    R.

    
    'Saw and Steve, I was just gonna respond to Rainer as I read his
    note, but continued on to find that you took the words right out
    of my fingers.
    
    The "pick-up game" seems to be a thing of the past (unless you're
    talkin' about singles bar activities.)  Yeah, basketball is still
    pretty hot in the schoolyards and playgrounds, but you'll have to
    go a long way before you see a sandlot baseball game or a touch
    football game.  I just didn't realize the problem was worldwide,
    if indeed it is a 'problem'.
    
    Reminds me of the 1965 NOTE, where everybody had a number of games
    they played as kids.  Now the scope of kid games seems to be limited
    to "Mario II", and "The Legend of Zelda" and all it's variations
    of working through a maze, and killing or being killed, and finally
    destroying "the ultimate force in the universe", whichever form
    it happens to take in that particular game.
    
    The point is, there is no social interaction in these games, and
    that is what I find most disturbing.  Is "kill or be killed" the
    way to teach sportsmanship and fair play?  Is there a sense of "team
    effort" in a joy stick and a television?  Will "beating the game"
    be just as fond a memory for our kids as hitting a homerun in a
    sandlot game was for us?   Does a chicken have lips?  Does a snake
    have shoulders?
    
    Shall I get off the soapbox now?
    
    Dickster
    

    This should probably go to another note, but what the hell....
    
    Part of the reason that you don't see the prevalence of pick-up
    games is that there aren't as many kids in the neighborhood!  With
    somewhere's around 60% of moms of school-age kids working, the kids
    aren't *home* in the afternoons.  Because our/my generation is having
    fewer kids later in their lives, there isn't the sheer number of
    kids around either.  Also, fear of kidnapping, random violence, and
    drugs has led a lot of parents to not allow their kids out of
    the yard unaccompanied.  (One of the saddest sights I see is the
    number of kids who are accompanied to the bus stop every morning,
    and have an adult in attendance until everyone is on the bus.  Not
    a whole lot of playing around/goofing off under those conditions.)
    Because family schedules are so tight, more kids recreation is of
    the scheduled/planned variety, with lessons and practices and games
    at times there are parents around to get the kids there.

    A&W
    

    Back to the real topic....
    
    The US team did pretty well, in my opinion.  Going in, I wasn't
    sure we'd even manage to score a goal, and we got 2 :-)  Clearly,
    the game against Italy was our best effort.  The Austria game was
    marred by the physical play and resulting penalties, but the good
    news seems to be that we didn't roll over and play dead when the
    hacking started.  Clearly, the team learned a lot over the course
    of the three games.
    
    I sincerely hope that some/more of our players find places on European
    or South American teams.  Even if we get a full-scale professional
    league here in the States (we've got the nucleus of one already,
    and have for the last 3 years), it won't give the level of competition
    and play necessary for us to continue to improve.
    
    May we do better in '94.
    
    A&W

    That's right.  When I was a kid kidnappers and perverts were not
    a problem.  We played outside after dark and would run all over
    town without parents.  No way today, tho.  It's really too bad.
    
    Cowboy

    
    Reprinted unashamedly and without permission from The Independent!!
    
    "Czechoslovakia's players have been offered a Skoda each if they
    win the World Cup.  (Note:  Skodas are large pieces of tin which
    in Czechoslovakia are called cars!!) They might stick with what
    they've already got; they were each given a $3,500 bonus for getting
    into the second round!!
    
    And if to prove that bonuses are in inverse proportion to the team's
    chance of earning them, the United Arab Emirates' players were offered
    a Ferrari Testarossa just to get into the second round!!"
                    
    
    What incentive was the US team given???   A date with Steffi Graf???
    
    PJ

Back to the topic of the World Cup, I have a couple of simple questions on the 
remaining rounds.

	- how are tie games resolved?

	- how were the seedings determined?

Clay

    Concerning a pro soccer league in the USA; What other sports compete
    with pro soccer in Europe? In the US we have baseball in the summer,
    football in the fall and basketball in the winter/spring. These
    sports have taken decades to establish themselves and have a loyal
    following. Unless there is a demand by a paying customer to see
    soccer in America it will continue to languish as "the other football".
    
    Rich
    

Tie are broken by penalty kicks I think.  I'm not sure about extra time.


Seedings:

1st B v 3rd a/c/d
2nd A v 2nd c
2nd F v 2nd b
1st c v 3rd a/b/f
1st f v 2nd e
1st d v 3rd b/e/f
1st a v 3rd c/d/e
1st e v 2nd d


That's for round 2.  The 3rd place teams are the ones with the best record.
That is still to be determined I think...

HTH,
'Saw

    Ties *in the US* are (were) broken by penalty kicks.  This is
    one of the rules created by Americans to "Americanize" the
    sport.  (Most Americans caint stand to watch a game for an
    hour or two and see it end in a tie.
    
    The rest of the world accepts ties in soccer (and isn't this
    what has started some of the riots in other countries?)
    
    Correct me on this if I'm wrong.
    
    Cowboy

re: .192

If I understand it, the remainder of the World Cup is your classic one game 
elimination tournament.  You've gotta resolve tie games, or you don't know 
which team gets eliminated and who goes on to the next round.

Clay

If I'm not mistaken, at one point the FIFA rules stated something
like 2 15 minute Extra Time periods.  If that didn't resolve it,
the game would be replayed in its entirety at a later date.
After that penalty kicks would determine it.

I know that two years ago, Liverpool needed to Extra Times to beat
Everton for the FA Cup.

I'm not sure if the Second round is done with et and kicks or just
kicks....

PJ, Rainer, anybody know?

'Saw

    Ties:  The team with the ugliest tie loses the game (unless of course
    its a bow tie in which case, they earn an extra point).  Sometimes
    the ties are so ugly that the teams are not even allowed on the
    field!!  If this is the case, then the other team wins by default.
    
    Seriously though....ties are decided by length, so teams with bow
    ties generally lose because they're shorter than normal ties.  Also,
    teams with those stringy 'cowboy' ties don't have a chance because
    they are too thin  (you see "width is just as important as length"..
    right ladies???)
    
    Schlepping it,
    
    PJ  (is it Friday yet???)
    

     As teams are divided into six groups for the first round matches,
    ties are acceptable (as we have seen).  As we move into the second
    round, matches require a winner.  So if the score is level after
    90 minutes, the teams will shot penalties.  
    
    Penalties work as follows:  Each team takes 5 penalties (alternatively)
    If after these penalties, Team A has scored more penalties than
    Team B, Team A wins.  If both teams have scored an equal  number
    of penalties, they keep taking penalties alternatively until one
    team scores and the other misses.  For example:
    
    
       			Team A				Team B
                
    Penalty 1		Scores				Misses
    Penalty 2		Scores				Scores
    Penalty 3		Scores				Misses
    Penalty 4		Misses				Scores
    Penalty 5		Misses				Scores
    
    The score after the first five panalties is 3 - 3  (Note: it does
    not matter what order the goals were scored in.)
    
    Begining with Penalty 6, however, it becomes sudden death.  If one
    team misses, and the other scores, we have a winner.  E.g.
    
    Penalty 6		Misses				Misses
    Penalty 7		Scores				Scores
    		(The official score is now 4 - 4.)
    Penalty 8		Scores				Misses
    		(Team A wins 5 - 4.) 
    
    
    Alternatively,
    Penalty 8		Misses				Scores
    		(Team B wins 5 - 4.)
    
    
    
    PJ
    
    ps.  The original six seedings (ie Italy, Argentina, Brazil, West
    Germany, Belgium and England) were decided by a FIFA World Cup
    Committee that based their decision on past performances.
    Understandably, the Dutch were not pleased.
    

Thanks for the explanation.


Can some guy with one of those stringy cowboy ties or a nerdy bow tie ever 
score with the misses?

Clay

    Before they get to the penalties,  they play two fifteen minute
    periods of extra time.  Note these are NOT sudden death.
    
    PJ

> Can some guy with one of those stringy cowboy ties or a nerdy bow tie ever 
> score with the misses?

> Clay
    
    
    Those "stringy cowboy ties" have a real purpose--if you know
    how to use 'em.  We were using these long before bondage
    and leather came into fashion.
    
    Just make sure the size of the miss's thighs wont require
    a cutt'n rope.
    
    Hop'n t Hep
    
    Cowboy

    One reason why the Dutch were not pleased is that they are the
    defending European Champions. Since seeding is done on past
    performances, they thought that this should count, combined with
    finishing second in the '74 and '78 World Cups. (Both times they lost
    to the host country, W. Germany and Argentina). However, they didn't
    qualify for the '86 cup, losing a playoff with Belgium.
    
    This year, they won their qualifying group (W. Germany was second.)
    England, who WERE seeded, finished second in their group to Sweden. In
    England's qualifying group, if you discount the games vs Albania, the
    worst team on the planet, England scored a whopping ONE (1) goal in a 
    1-0 win over Poland. They tied Sweden twice and Poland once, 0-0.
    
    It was widely believed that England were seeded and placed on Sardinia
    to keep the hooligan element isolated. It was also sughgested that the
    Dutch were put in the same group for the same reason, hoping that a
    tough group would make it difficult for them to advance to the later
    rounds on the mainland. The Dutch fans also have a nasty reputation.
    
    Anyway, it doesn't look like any team from this group deserves to go 
    on, since they've done nothing but play lackluster draws. We'll find out
    tomorrow, as Englanf play Egypt and Holland play Ireland.
    
    
    Re. .194 Yeah, that Liverpool Everton FA Cup was a cracker, eh? Too bad
    for me since I'm an Everton fan...:-(

re .201...

Yeah, ESPN carried that game live over here.  I was in heaven,
watching Liverpool play.

I do like Southall, the Everton keeper though.  There's something 
very deceptive about him, as he doesn't really look the part, but
I think he's one of the best around...

BTW, isn't Liverpool-Everton one of the big rivalries (derbies???)
in English football?

'Saw

    Halftime scores:
    Brazil-Scotland 0-0
    Sweden 1-0 over Costa Rica

    Finals:
    Scotland 0  Brazil 1
    Costa Rica 2   Sweden 1
    
    Costa Rica and Brazil advance:
    
    These teams are definitely in round 2:
    
    Italy(1)        Brazil(1)
    Czech (2)       Costa Rica (2)
    
    Cameroon(1)     W Germany(1)
    Rumania (2)     Yugoslavia (2)
    Argentina (3)   Colombia (3)
    
    Belgium
    Spain 
    
    Uruguay advances with a win over South Korea . 
    
    

>    Uruguay advances with a win over South Korea . 
    
     If South Korea manages to tie Uruguay, or if South Korea wins
     by one or two goals, then there will be, for certain, a coin flip
     for one of the final 16 spots between Scotland and Austria.    

    Answering a few questions:
    
    Competing (with soccer) sports in europe are (not surprizingly)
    different per country. Roughly, one can say that in Scandinavia,
    USSR ice-hockey is at least as important. In central europe (CSFR,
    Poland, Germany, Switzerland, Austria) ice-hockey is a strong com-
    petitor, but (unfortunately) clearly behind soccer. The funny things
    the british are doing besides soccer are probably known to this
    audience (rugby, cricket and stuff), rugby is pretty strong in France,
    too. In southern europe (Italy, Spain) basketball is popular.
    I have to mention skiing in the alpine countries as well, since soccer
    is also a 'winter' sport (partly, at least).
    I don't have to mention this global pest tennis, right?
    
    Sure there is a rivalry between Everton and Liverpool, Everton is in
    Liverpool, too, they are city-rivals, like AC and Inter Milan.
    
    I don't know much about FIFA rules, good points have been made in
    here regarding the playoff system.
    
    R.

    Why is Romania seeded higher in the second round than Argentina?
    They tied each other, and the goal differential is the same.
    
    Thanks for the info.
    
    NAZZ

    Romania got seeded #2 because they scored against Cameroon, which
    got won the group, while Argentina did not.  I hope this answers
    your question Nazz.

    .208 is right:
    
    Arg. scored 3 goals, Romania 4, both having the same difference of +1.
    
    Offense gets rewarded.
    
    R.

    Todays scores:
    
     Uruguay V South Korea is 0-0 at half time
        Spain 2-1 over Belgium at half time...

     Final scores:
    
                    Spain 2, Belgium 1
    
                    Uruguay 1, S.Korea 0
    
    
        Fonseca for Uruguay scored the winning goal at the 90th minute!!!
        Now all of the Latin American teams have made it to the second
    round-
        Argentina,Brazil,Costa Rica,Colombia and Uruguay.  And this is a
        World Cup held in Europe!
    
    
    Here are the qualifiers to date:
    
    Group winners: Italy,Brazil,Spain,West Germany,Cameroon
    
    2nd place qualifiers:Czechs,Costa Rica,Belgium,Yugoslavia,Rumania
    
    3rd place qualifiers: Uruguay,Colombia,Argentina
    
    England,Ireland,Holland & Egypt- at least two qualify and a third if a
    game ends in a tie.
    
    

    Thanks for the response, guys.  Am I mistaken or could Argentina
    play Italy in the next round?  
    
    NAZZ

  Brazil 3-0-0
 ---------------------
  Austr/Argent/F3     |------------
 ---------------------             |
  Spain 2-0-1                      |------------
 ---------------------             |            |
  Yugoslavia 2-1-0    |------------             |
 ---------------------                          |
  Group F 2nd place                             |------------
 ---------------------                          |            |
  Romania 1-1-1       |------------             |            |
 ---------------------             |            |            |
  Italy 3-0-0                      |------------             |
 ---------------------             |                         |
  Colomb/Scot/Urug    |------------                          |
 ---------------------                                       |
  Czechoslovakia 2-1-0                                       |------------
 ---------------------                                       |
  Costa Rica 2-1-0    |------------                          |
 ---------------------             |                         |
  West Germany 2-0-1               |------------             |
 ---------------------             |            |            |
  Argentina/Urug/F3   |------------             |            |
 ---------------------                          |            |
  Cameroon 2-1-0                                |------------
 ---------------------                          |
  Austr/Colomb/Scot   |------------             |
 ---------------------             |            |
  Group F winner                   |------------
 ---------------------             |
  Belgium 2-1-0       |------------
 ---------------------

    Any score yet in the Group F games?
    
    
    py

    Holland leads Ireland 1-0,England-Egypt 0-0
    

    Results:
    Holland 1 - Ireland 1 (Holland meet Germany, Ireland, Romania)
    
    England 1 Egypt 0 (England meet Belgium)
    
    Uruguay 1 S Korea 0 (Uruguay meet Italy)
    
    Spain 2 Belgium 1 (Spain meet Yugoslavia)
    
    Peter

    Holland - Germany matchup is a shocker. They always had our number.
    Ireland would have been much more convenient. It is spicy, too:
    The 3 best dutch players are playing for AC Milan, 3 of the best
    germans play for arch rival Inter Milan, and the game is in Milano!
    Also, there is not exactly 'love' among the 'fans' of both teams.
    
    Also, Brazil - Argentina is a major shocker. 2 of tese 4 top-favourites
    have to go home soon, whereas there are match-ups like
    Colombia-Kamerun,
    CSFR _ Costa Rica.
    
    As for south america 6 for 6: They won't get too far, the final will be
    Italy - {Holland, Germany}. So latin america will not win, but likely
    latin europe. I can hardly imagine somebody knocking out Italy at home.
    
    R.

the netherlands are really disappointing me in this cup. 3 ties so far. Germany 
will send them home packing unless they really pick up their game...

I think Brasil will get past Argentina who are also playing uninsppired soccer.


Metz

    Can somebody please post the 2nd round of play for me.If you could
    include the correct teams,the  venues and if they are being
    televised,the correct network.Hope thats not too much too ask, I
    need to get a grip on this damn thing.
    
    Go Alemania!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Holland - Germany will definitely be a close game. Dutch are obviously
    getting better every game, not true for ger., who started out great.
    
    Holland will be the 1-st opponent of some calibre for germany in this
    tournament, the 1-st round group was too easy to really judge the
    quality.
    
    R.

    
    The second round: I would guess that one game each day will be at 11 am
    EST and the other at 3 pm. TNT will probably televise all 4 games this
    weekend as well as the England and Italy games. Univision will have
    them all.
    
    june 23         Cameroon vs     Colombia        in Naples
                    Czechoslovakia vs Costa Rica    in Bari
    june 24         Brazil   vs     Argentina       in Turin
                    West Germany vs Netherland      in Milan
    june 25         Ireland vs      Romania         in Genoa
                    Italy vs        Uruguay         in Roma
    june 26         Spain vs        Yugoslavia      in Calgiari
                    England vs      Belgium         in Bologna

    The following is from my morning paper. Any mistakes are their's.
    
    2nd Round
       Saturday 6/23
         @Naples  Cameroon-Columbia 11am (EDT)
         @Bari    Czechs-Costa Rica  3pm
    
       Sunday 6/24
         @Turin  Brazil-Argentina 11am
         @Milan  West Germany-Netherlands 3pm
    
       Monday 6/25
         @Genoa  Ireland-Romania 11am
         @Rome   Italy-Uruguay 3pm
    
       Tuesday 6/26
         @Verona  Spain-Yugoslavia 11am
         @Bologna England-Belgium 3pm
    
       Bull~
    

Yup, Dave,

One game will start at 1100 EST and the second at 3 p.m.

I think the order that you have them in -.1 is the same as the time that they
will start.

I can't wait to see those Cameroooonians leaping all over the place!!


rick ellis

Are any of these games broadcast over the radio ? In greater New England ?
In English ?


Gonna be on the road much of the weekend and would love to listen to the games
as I drive....

Time to set the VCR up anyways....


Metz

    re .221 (Ranier):
    
    Is it possible that Germany merely had a letdown in the Columbia game,
    because they had already clinched a place in the second round? 
    
    
    Paul

    Paul,
    
    that is possible. It was a fact, though, that the Colombians unveiled
    some major weaknesses in the german defense I suspected before the
    games started: The two central defense players are big, but slow guys
    (Augenthaler and Buchwald). Rincon showed that painfully on his goal.
    
    Gullit and Van Basten probably can show that even better.
    
    And again: Holland always had our team's number. In recent years
    they clearly have the edge. Has not necessarily to stay that way,
    but the whole thing is really only 50:50.
    
    The follow-on schedule looks a lot easier: Next opponent would be
    {CSFR,Costa Rica}, then probably {England,Belgium, NOT Italy}.
    All of them supposedly easier to beat for the german team.
    
    The thing will be a nail-biter!
    
    R.

    CSFR 4 - Costa Rica 1
    
    	CSFR had a party, no contest. Entertaining little game.
    
    Kamerun 2 - Colombia 1
    
    	Boring game of two teams who should not have advanced so far.
    	This clown Huigita got punished. The next game vs.
        {England,Belgium} will be the end of Kamerun's journey, their
        loss (0:4) against the Soviets has shown that they cannot keep
    	up with tough, high-speed european type of playing.
    
    Argentina 1 - Brazil 0
    
    	Brazil was clearly the better team, but you could smell it when
    	they were unable to score, that a lucky punch could turn that match
    	around. Maradona who? He was not seen, but he 'architected' the
    	lucky and decisive goal. The next opponent of Arg. can gratulate
    	himself, Argentina is definitely not a good team this time around.
    
    Germany 2 - Holland 1
    
    	First of all I think this game should have shown everybody that
    	soccer is the opposite of a 'whimp-sport'. Really tough game, as
    	expected. I'm too involved/biased to state that this was the most
    	exiting game so far in Italy. I felt that way, though.
    	Unfortunaltely the refs (+ linesmen!) were not adequate. They were
    	not biased, but incredibly incompetent.
    	The dutch should drop this spitting ape Rijkart at the dump from
    	were they picked him up (what a difference to gentleman Gullit), he
    	cost them the game, because after he and V�ller had been sent off,
        and Rijkart started the whole mess, Holland lost its rythm, which
        was quite dangerous in the beginning of the game. From that moment
    	on they were inferior and deserved to loose.
    	Germany now plays CSFR and has good chances to proceed to the round
    	of the last 4, which will be an all-european affair.
    
    It is already, in the round of the last 8 there are 6 european teams
    (I take Italy's win over Uruguay for granted), one from Africa, one
    from south America, both of which have close to zero chances to proceed
    further.
    
    R.

>>                  -< will miss those brasilian sambe girls! >-

Ya, Rainer, wasn't that Brazil-Scotland match fantastic??

To stop us from dozing off because of what wasn't happening on the field, those
Latin cameramen kept showing these nubile lambada girls bopping around in the
stands.

One of the better evenings so far.

rick ellis
    

I truly enjoyed the Germany-Holland match.  I also agree that the
referee was incompentent.  He lost control of the game, and never
really regained it.

Van Breuklin, the Dutch keeper made a fantastic save in the first
half, off a volley from one of the German strikers.  Gullit, as
always, was very dangerous.  But the Germans clearly were superior
playing with only 10 men.

I thought this was the best match I've seen...

'Saw

    No question.......best soccer exhibition shown yet!!!
    I agree with all the above mentioned as far as the ref's inabilities..
    no question threw out the red cards to settle things down a bit.Dont
    really agree with the call,but necessary to remind those who's boss
    out there. The goals that were shot were beauties.......except for
    that "sympathetic" free kick given to the Dutch.
      Germany will have their hands full come time to play the Czech's.
    I sure as hell hope they can pull that one out.If so.............
    
            Final-------Germany vs. Italy
    
    
    Go Alemania!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>>that "sympathetic" free kick given to the Dutch.
   
    
    Gee, I thought fouls in the penalty area by the "D" were punished by
    awarding the "O" a penalty kick. I guess I need to go back to watching
    NFL hi-lites until August. 

    I don't argue about the penalty kick, the situation was not clear
    enough for me. Who cares.
    
    A few weeks ago I would have said that CSFR is a piece of cake, i don't
    any more. It is a fact, though, that CSFR, as in hockey, does not like 
    the tough, physical play, so I think the chances of Germany to proceed
    further are not too bad, but it will be close again.
    
    A week of pause is pretty long for a tournament. One can loose
    momentum.
    
    R.

    re .228
    
    Do I sense some European prejudice and homerism creeping in to your
    coverage and predictions.  Hmm, I thought only Americans were like
    that.....

    I heard that four Cameroon players will not be eligible for the
    quarterfinals because they received their second yellow card of the
    tournament in Saturday's game....how many of them are considered key
    players?
    
    
    Go Ireland!
    
    
    Paul

    .235:
    
    Let the facts decide, the facts already there (not created by me)
    and those to come.
    
    That I would not mind, if - according to my predictions - the semi-
    final will be an all european affair, and that I don't mind that right
    now the whole thing is already a mostly-european affair, may be called
    'homerism', 'prejudice' is a completely different, inappropriate taste.
    
    R.

    >>>Gee, I thought fouls in the penalty area by the "D" were punished by
    awarding the "O" a penalty kick.
    
    
    In my opinion it was damn close to being "outside" the box,and trust me,
    if the Germans hadn't have been up by 2 goals that lousy call would
    never had been made. It was a weak call made by a weak ref trying to
    give the Dutch a last minute spark of hope. Germany was fouled in the
    box,quite obvious to me, after the weak Dutch call, but do you think
    he'd call it so the game would be totally out of reach for the Dutch??!!
       
     NAWWWWWWWW! Call em' right or don't call em' at all!!!!!!!
    
    GO ALEMANIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Why is it that some of you (whoo aren't even English !) actually predict 
    England making it to the finals (or semi's)? This is a team that has 
    done absolutely NOTHING on the pitch for the whole tournament.
    
    They've played cautious, kick-n-chase soccer for the whole tournament,
    barely eeking out a win over ateam (Egypt) who would have been happy to
    settle for yet another scoreless draw. England have a lot of skilled
    players, but they never seem to do too much with it.
    
    Their opponent, Belgium, beat Korea and Uruguay, and with a next-round 
    place clinched, they STILL played attacking soccer in their 2-1 loss to
    an excellent Spanish team. Most teams would have taken it easy and gone
    through the motions.
    
    Belgium will wipe the floor with them!
    
    Tom     

    The only reason I like the English team is because I admire the
    endurance and consistancy of Peter Shilton.  The English will never
    dominate as long as they are kept out of European competition.

    Being kept out is only part of the story. The british soccer gods kept
    themselves out, by not feeling/getting along with the changes the
    soccer
    made on the european mainland. They simply play 'old-fashioned',
    lacking some 'delicatesse' of the continental teams. This stems
    probably from the 'we are the motherland of this thing'-attitude.
    
    Kind of interesting analogy is NHL vs. europ.hockey, similar developments
    and attitudes.
    
    Have to admit, though, that the 'dinosaur' approaches have their
    atractions in terms of intensity in both sports.
    
    R.

    re .241
    Yes, I think you hit the nail on the head with that one. Stagnation
    won't get you anywhere. A look at the Scottish Premier Division will
    tell the same story. Rangers, the top team, routinely gets hammered
    when they play in Europe, even though they have some of the best (and
    most expensive) players in the world.
    
    Re .240
    I admire Shilton too, but what can you say about the quality of players
    in a supposedly "world-class" team when the BEST goalkeeper in the
    country is 41 years old? I also like John Barnes, but he plays "like a
    European", so he can't do much for England, yet is brilliant for
    Liverpool. Hmmmm.
    
    Tom

  Brazil 3-0-0
 ---------------------  Arg 1-0
  Argentina 1-1-1     |------------
 ---------------------             |
  Spain 2-0-1                      |------------
 ---------------------             |            |
  Yugoslavia 2-1-0    |------------             |
 ---------------------                          |
  Ireland 0-0-3                                 |------------
 ---------------------  Eire 5-4 (SO)           |            |
  Romania 1-1-1       |------------             |            |
 ---------------------             |            |            |
  Italy 3-0-0                      |------------             |
 ---------------------             |                         |
  Uruguay 1-1-1       |------------                          |
 ---------------------                                       |
  Czechoslovakia 2-1-0                                       |------------
 ---------------------  Czech 4-1                            |
  Costa Rica 2-1-0    |------------                          |
 ---------------------             |                         |
  West Germany 2-0-1               |------------             |
 ---------------------  W G 2-1    |            |            |
  Holland 0-0-3       |------------             |            |
 ---------------------                          |            |
  Cameroon 2-1-0                                |------------
 ---------------------  Cam 2-1 (OT)            |
  Colombia 1-1-1      |------------             |
 ---------------------             |            |
  England 1-0-2                    |------------
 ---------------------             |
  Belgium 2-1-0       |------------
 ---------------------

 ******************************************************************************

 Group A				Group B
 -------				-------
*Italy			3-0-0  4-0     *Cameroon		2-1-0  3-5
*Czechoslovakia		2-1-0  6-3     *Romania			1-1-1  4-3
 Austria		1-2-0  2-3     *Argentina		1-1-1  3-2
 United States		0-3-0  2-8	Soviet Union		1-2-0  4-4

 Group C				Group D
 -------				-------
*Brazil			3-0-0  4-1     *West Germany		2-0-1 10-3
*Costa Rica		2-1-0  3-2     *Yugoslavia		2-1-0  5-5
 Scotland		1-2-0  2-3     *Colombia		1-1-1  3-2
 Sweden			0-3-0  3-6	United Arab Emirates	0-3-0  2-10

 Group E				Group F
 -------				-------
*Spain			2-0-1  5-2     *England			1-0-2  2-1
*Belgium		2-1-0  6-3     *Ireland			0-0-3  2-2
*Uruguay		1-1-1  2-3     *Holland			0-0-3  2-2
 South Korea		0-3-0  1-6	Egypt			0-1-2  1-2

    re.238
    
    I couldn't agree with you more about the penalty call. Sure Van Basten
    was fouled,but it shouldn't have been a penalty. 
    
    Even though my Spanish isn't that good,I much prefer the Univision
    broadcasts to TNT because they have no commercials. When I have
    watched TNT and they leave,it's amazing all the action you miss. One
    question: Do any of you know of a soccer viewer's guide to Spanish.
    I know "tido escina"  is corner kick,"soccatemedia(sp)" is goal kick,
    equipo is team,partida is game,pelota is ball and cab�za is head.
    If anyone can provide the key words,I would be most grateful.

    re .244:
    
    >	Do any of you know of a soccer viewer's guide to Spanish.
    >	I know "tido escina"  is corner kick,"soccatemedia(sp)" is goal kick,
    >	equipo is team,partida is game,pelota is ball and cab�za is head.
    >	If anyone can provide the key words,I would be most grateful.
    
    Goal is GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!  :-)
    
    
    Paul
    

    Ireland wins on penalty kicks vs Romania. 
    
    A scoreless tie through overtime.  Irish goalie saves the fifth
    penalty kick; Ireland scores on all five.
    
    Italy ahead 1-0 (Schillaci again!) in the second half.
    
    NAZZ

    Italy won 2-0. Serena scored the other goal.

    Italy - W. Germany on the turf July 8.
    
    
    
    GO ALEMANIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    

    Ireland 5 - Romania 4 (regular and overtime 0:0, penalty kicks)
    
    	Saw only overtime. Desolate. Reporter said whole game was like
        that. Penalty kicks better than flipping coins, but bad enough.
    
    Italy 2 - Uruguay 0
    
    	Not a great game, but not bad either. Ref very biased in favour of
    	Italy (for that alone they will be unbeatable). But they did not
        need it. Uruguay stubborn on defense, but harmless in offense.
        Had close to zero scoring chances.
    
    R.

    Ireland have yet to lose a game in this Tournament and they were
    not expected to get this far so the game against Italy on June 30th
    could be one of the best so far.
    
    Ireland play a tedious brand of football, but if the objective is
    only to get to the next round, they don't care how they achieve
    it.  Its the result that matters not how you play the game (apologies
    to Vince!!)
    
    Italy on the other hand are a solid, well coached team that has
    the skills and abilities to win this WC.  Unfortuately, they are
    playing in ITALY and I'm afraid that the pressure to win will
    eventually get the better of them.
    
    Here's my scenario...  Ireland play their usual boring style of
    football (long high balls into the penalty area to Cascarino and/or
    Quinn) and frustrate the Italians much the way they did the Romanians.
    The Italians try to play their preferred game. Steady build up from
    Defence to Midfield and then to Schillaci and/or Baggio.  Irish
    keeper Bonner will play a great game.  Towards the end of the 90
    minutes, the crowd begin to rile the Italians and the team buckle
    under the pressure.  Fouls galore, several yellow cards, and then
    extra time.   In extra time, the Italians get increasingly frustrated
    while the Irish stamina and fitness begins to show.  Ireland scores!!!
    (It is the first goal Italy have conceded in the entire tournament.)...
    ....
    ....
    ....
    .... then I wake up!! (I forget what happens next.)
    
    
    Actually, with nothing to lose (except their heads), the Italians
    come back to score two goals and send the Irish home.  Everyone
    will say that the Irish were a great team that gave the home team
    a run for their money and Jack Charlton will go home a hero.
    
    OK??
    PJ

    not o.k:
    
    if the Irish manage to keep up with the Italians for some time
    (unlikely) the ref will take care of the game. A unjustified penalty
    kick or a red card. Italy is already booked for the final, Argentina
    or Germany as the opponent. Those are the constellations which offer
    the best economical output for the FIFA and some other interest groups.
    
    At least they will try that.
    
    R.

    Rainer,
    
    For Italy to reach the Finals, they would have to meet Argentina
    in the Semi-Finals...
    
    I think the Semis will look like this....
    
    
    	Naples July 3rd		Italy    vs   Argentina
    
    	Turin  July 4th		England  vs   West Germany
                                              
    
    With Germany beating Italy in the finals  (3-2)
    
    This will also create a very interesting 3rd Place match between
    England and Maradona's "Hand of God" Argentina!!!
    
    PJ
    

    
    go irelandddddddddddddddd
    

    
>>    go irelandddddddddddddddd
    

the first world wide test of the KOD, sure we know it's a given for teams
based in the USA but can he reach out across the pond and strike down
another victum?

stay tuned...

mike

    Romania was clearly the better team in its match against Ireland. This
    player Hagi (sp) for Romania is simply incredible, he took the
    corners,foul kicks, beautiful shots on goal, and created great
    opportunities for his co-players.  He was called by the announcers the
    "Maradonna" of Romania.  Did anyone else notice his play ?

Yo PJ,

>>    For Italy to reach the Finals, they would have to meet Argentina
>>    in the Semi-Finals...
    
That's only part of the story!  For Argentina to reach the semi-finals they
will have to beat the winner of tonights' Spain-Yugoslavia showdown.

Either of those teams would be tough.  Furthermore, the Argentinians know that
they have no business whatsoever being where they are after standing around
watching the Brazilians play football last weekend.

I would therefore say that Argentina will now roll over and play dead for the
winner of tonights' game.

This may well mean Italy vs. Spain in the semis.

Finally, let's not count out the Irish *that* quickly.  They have just the 
style which will drive the Italians nuts.

Anyway, Cameroooooon is the real Cinderella team this WC!!  Yippeeeeeeeee!!
                                              
rick ellis  

    To answer a few:
    
    Georghe Haghi of romania is called the "Maradona of the carpates".
    The Carpates (if that is the proper english word) are a mountain area
    in Romania. Whatever, they guy is very good and will play in Spain
    (I guess) the next season for some big $$$.
    
    Sorry, was not aware that Arg. cannot meet Italy in the finals. But
    I would not be surprised if the (so far weak) Argentinians would get
    the ref's edge if the game against {Spain, Yug} would be close.
    Italy, Arg. and Germany are  the 'moneymakers' for the FIFA in this
    tournament. And I'm sorry, the 'performances' of the refs did not
    exactly blow away the suspicions that they were 'made aware'
    of that. Arg. has been 'refed' into the play-offs, Italy and Germany
    did not need that so far, but in case of a real close one they would
    probably get the edge, too.  In any case, the horrible 'refing' during
    the tournament is caused either by this 'awareness' or by stellar
    incom-
    petence, it stinks big-time.
    
    R.

    I don't count Argentina out against anyone as long as Maradona is
    playing. Just ask Brazil. They dominated, but one quick strike and
    *poof* their goes their shot at the cup. It can happen to anyone.

    Thats right.....you can control the whole game,but if you don't
    finish..oh well. Argentina just got that one chance and finished
    it. Real tough break for the Brazilians. But I do count Argentina out,
    even if Maradona plays. Whoever goes up against them, they'll be on
    #10 like stink on sh*t.He wont do squat!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Pack your bags Diego......your goin' home!
    
    GO
    ALEMANIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If West Germany wins the whole thing, then I guess I'll have


		Fussballvergn�gen!


Wouldn't mind seeing England there either, but realistically I don't
think they'll make it.

'Saw

  Brazil 3-0-0
 ---------------------  Arg 1-0
  Argentina 1-1-1     |------------
 ---------------------             |
  Spain 2-0-1                      |------------
 ---------------------  Yug 2-1 OT |            |
  Yugoslavia 2-1-0    |------------             |
 ---------------------                          |
  Ireland 0-0-3                                 |------------
 ---------------------  Eire 0-0 PK             |            |
  Romania 1-1-1       |------------             |            |
 ---------------------             |            |            |
  Italy 3-0-0                      |------------             |
 ---------------------  Italy 2-0  |                         |
  Uruguay 1-1-1       |------------                          |
 ---------------------                                       |
  Czechoslovakia 2-1-0                                       |------------
 ---------------------  Czech 4-1                            |
  Costa Rica 2-1-0    |------------                          |
 ---------------------             |                         |
  West Germany 2-0-1               |------------             |
 ---------------------  W Germ 2-1 |            |            |
  Holland 0-0-3       |------------             |            |
 ---------------------                          |            |
  Cameroon 2-1-0                                |------------
 ---------------------  Cam 2-1 OT              |
  Colombia 1-1-1      |------------             |
 ---------------------             |            |
  England 1-0-2                    |------------
 ---------------------             |
  Belgium 2-1-0       |------------
 ---------------------

                   -< Now to the Quarters>-

  Brazil 3-0-0
 ---------------------  Arg 1-0
  Argentina 1-1-1     |------------
 ---------------------             |
  Spain 2-0-1                      |------------
 ---------------------  Yug 2-1 OT |            |
  Yugoslavia 2-1-0    |------------             |
 ---------------------                          |
  Ireland 0-0-3                                 |------------
 ---------------------  Eire 0-0 PK             |            |
  Romania 1-1-1       |------------             |            |
 ---------------------             |            |            |
  Italy 3-0-0                      |------------             |
 ---------------------  Italy 2-0  |                         |
  Uruguay 1-1-1       |------------                          |
 ---------------------                                       |
  Czechoslovakia 2-1-0                                       |------------
 ---------------------  Czech 4-1                            |
  Costa Rica 2-1-0    |------------                          |
 ---------------------             |                         |
  West Germany 2-0-1               |------------             |
 ---------------------  W Germ 2-1 |            |            |
  Holland 0-0-3       |------------             |            |
 ---------------------                          |            |
  Cameroon 2-1-0                                |------------
 ---------------------  Cam 2-1 OT              |
  Colombia 1-1-1      |------------             |
 ---------------------             |            |
  England 1-0-2                    |------------
 ---------------------  Eng 1-0 OT |
  Belgium 2-1-0       |------------
 ---------------------

    Yug 2 - Spain 1 (OT; regular was 1:1)
    
    	Saw only overtime. Not bad, Yug. was better. Noticed him already
    	in opener against Germany: Dragan Stojkovic is one of the best
        players in the tournament. Hope he and his squad send the gang
    	of the little fat guy back home to the pampas.
    
    England 1 - Belgium 1  (OT; regular was 0:0)
    
    	Belgium was the better team and created more scoring chances, but
    	England created more pressure and had a legal goal disallowed
        because of off-side, which was not true. Was a tough call, though,
    	the refs were good this time. Game was not bad.
    
    
    Now one can smell a England - Germany semifinal (tough game again),
    because both England and Germany have a good edge over Kamerun/CSFR.
    
    The other semifinal will definitely feature Italy (clear edge over
    Ireland), {Argentina, Yug.} is kind of 'open'.
    
    There is then the distant smell of the Italy - Germany final.
    
    R.
    

    Most people in Britain have shorter fingernails after Ireland's Penalty
    Shootout with Romania and England's last second goal against Belgium!!
    But the euphoria is tangible.  The streets are empty at night when
    the games are on TV (Restaurants and cinemas are losing money!!)
    
    About the game....well, perhaps Belgium were the better side and
    perhaps they were unlucky to hit the post twice.  But England did
    have a legitimate goal disallowed for a "fantasy" offside...(As
    Jimmy Greaves, one of the commentators said, "The ref must have
    been waving at his girlfriend in the stand!!").
    
    My feeling is that if you can't win the game in 90 minutes, then
    you weren't really the 'better side'.  All credit to England who
    looked as if they were resigning themselves to a Penalty Shootout
    but gave it one last effort.
    
    PJ
    
    PS  Platt's goal must rate as one of the best of the tournament.
     Not only did he escape very tight marking in a crowded penalty
    area, but he pivoted almost 180 degrees to catch the ball first
    time on the volley.  Great skills!!

    England was extremely lucky to escape without going into penalty kicks.
    It would have been rather exciting to see Shilton and Pruedhomme (sp)
    battle it out.

Depends how you look at it:  I'm not a big fan of England but they sure got
ripped off when their 1st goal by Barnes got called back.

The quality of refereeing in the highest level football competition in the 
world is pitiful.  The refs do the best they can, but they can't be everywhere,
and sometimes have to count on linesmen who don't seem to know their asses from
their elbows.

Oh, well, still an entertaining match.

rick ellis

    I thought that it was a tough call this time (the off-side, that is),
    not as flagrant as in the Italy-CSFR game, were the Czechs and Slowakes
    realy got ripped of.
    Whatever, 'extremely lucky' (as the Argentinians, for example) is not
    100% appropriate. Game was pretty even , I thought, Belgians having the
    edge, but they did not dominate (like Brazil over Arg.). IF about even
    AND not finish chances THEN loose.
    I would have preferred Belgium to play Germany (I know, CSFR first ...)
    in the semi's. Vs. England it will be a nail-biter again (e.g.
    Holland), since both teams have similar stamina and toughness. A bit
    more skills and the 'home game' in Milano should help, though, to
    reach the final. Would be final #6 or #7 since the end of the war,
    the two championships included.
    
    R.

    Argentina - Yugoslavia    3-0 (unfortunately)
    Italy - Ireland           1-0
    Germany - Czech.          2-1
    Cameroon - England        0-4
    

    pretty good, except Yug.
    
    R. (the rest I would not mind)
    

    RE -2 -- I agree with your winners,disagree with the scores.
    
    Argentina - Yugoslavia    3-2 
    Italy - Ireland           2-1(OT)
    Germany - Czech.          3-2(OT)
    Cameroon - England        0-2
    
    England will benefit from playing a Cameroon team missing 4
    starters,who were yellow carded twice.
    

    Argentina 1, Yugoslavia 1 (Argentina wins on penalty kicks)
    Italy 1, Ireland 0
    West Germany 3, Czechoslavakia 1
    Cameroon 1, England 0
    
    NAZZ

    Argentina 1:1 Yugoslavia (Argentina wins shoot-out)
    W. Germany 3:1 Czechoslovakia
    Italy 2:0 Irealnd
    Cameroon 2:1 England
    
    Tom
    

    Argentina wins 2-0
    Ireland wins 1-0 
    W. Germany wins 3-1
    England wins 4-0

    Italy 2-1
    Argentina 2-0
    W. Germany 1-0
    England 2-2 (win in shootout)

    ARGENTINA - YUGOSLAVIA      0-1
    ITALY  -  IRELAND           1-1  (IRELAND WINS SHOOT OUT)
    GERMANY - CZECHOSLAVAKIA    1-0  (OT)
    CAMEROON - ENGLAND          1-2
    
    
    Will the Dublin House open early for the Germany-Czech. game???
    
    GO
    ALEMANIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    
    pass the irish aleeeeeeeeeeeeee
    
    
    go  irish.........
    
    
    

    Teh "Barleystone"???  What's that Dinz?  Is that next to the Hops
    rock?  Or the Malt Wall?   A classic, for sure....
    
    JD

    WELLL..  WELL IN IRELAND THEIR  IS THE  BLARNEYSTONE.. SO
    
    when ya  equate  beer in ireland +  the stone =  barleystone
    

You guys slay me, really.  The "Barleystone" indeed 8^)

Has Aldridge scored a goal yet in WC play?

I'd be satisfied if Ireland, England or Deutschland made the finals,
but I think the Germans will win it all....

'Saw

    
    
    Argentina-Yugoslavia 3-2 p
    Italy-Ireland 1-0
    Germany-CSFR 1-0
    England-Cameroon 3-2 ot

Certainly bummed about the Italy-Ireland game.

Ireland was really taking it to them early in the game.  I thought
they might pull it out.

Who was the goal scorer for W. Germany?

Who scored for England?

'Saw

    Matthaeus scored on a penalty kick for West Germany in the 24th minute
    of the first half.
    
    Platt scored for England in the 25th minute of the first half.  Kunde
    scored for Cameroon in the 60th minute on a penalty kick, then Ekeke
    scored in the 65th minute.  Lineker scored on a penalty kick to tie it
    up in the 82nd minute.  In OT, Lineker scored on another penalty kick
    in the 109th minute.
    
    Argentina vs Italy tomorrow at Naples, West Germany vs England
    Wednesday at Turin.
    
    John

Just been reading this note in the Emerald Isle.....
Great to see so much activity, even if some of it is a bit off the mark.

As a Paddy (Irishman) I'ld like to thank the Irish team for a job well
done.
They played to entertain us at home on the old sod and they sure as hell 
kept us on the edge of our seats.  If you didn't enjoy it... sorry.  But
you get no points for entertainment only results.

Lots of people did not think Ireland would even qualify for Italy but we did.
We may not be "stylish", but we do have a style...we play as a TEAM.
We have a limited depth of talent but the best manager(Jackie Charlton)
We have a brilliant defence. (McCarthy, Morris, Moran, Staunton,
OLeary(sub), Houghton(sub))
Our goal scoring capability leaves a bit to be desired (John Aldrige who is a
world class striker has only ever scored one goal for Ireland and that was
a penalty against Malta!)

*Every* team that plays Ireland gets their ass run off.
We hassle the ball from the more stylish teams who need time to 
play their sort of game.
Ireland has only lost 2 games it its last 30 odd games (Our last defeat was
19(maybe 17 its so long ago I forget!) games ago)
No other team in this world cup comes near such a record.
No other team has conceeded so few goals!
Irish team support (according to feed back from Italy has been brilliant).
The FIFA WC organiser gave a special TV interview to thank the Irish
supporters for the helpfulness/courtesy/behaviour/singing etc. 
These are facts.

Ireland deserved to be beaten by Italy.
Italy were/are a better side.
We were bitterly dissapointed.
Italy should have won by 2-1 or 2-0.
But we are graceful in defeat.

Ireland deserved to beat Romania (not everyone in this conference thinks so
I noticed).  Romania have a *great* player in Haghi.  But great players need
a good team to feed them the ball.  Haghi usually had to make his own chances
but was never let convert them.

Ireland should have beaten Holland.  Holland are a side of names.. great
names...but they're not a team.  As luck would have it we let Mr Rude Gullit
through on a half chance and he converted.  Bad luck Ireland but we fought back
and the Dutch then settled for a draw.  They knew we were out to nail them.
Ireland should have beaten Egypt.  We underestimated them.  We thought that 
they would play football.  Instead they kicked the ball into touch whenever
they could and wasted time.  That game was *terrible*.

Ireland vs England was not a match it was a war.  It always is.  We are old
rivals.  It was not a dirty match.  But it had all the magic of a local
derby.  (Our manager is English (won a world cup medal in '66 with England)!)
The English goal was scrappy.  But a goal is a goal.  It was caused by a mistake
by the Irish captain.  Ireland's goal was a well struck left foot shot across 
the goal to the keepers left side.  It was a good goal.


=========================================================
Comments on the quarterfinals:
Italy v Ireland - the best side won (Italy)

Germany vs Czeckslovakia- Germany won on a penalty decision.  Germany look 
strong.  Several players have matured and blossomed as the competition 
has progressed.  Best team won.  Should have been by more. Plucky performance by
the Czechs.

England vs Cameroon - England were lucky.  They scored finished with a 
brilliant header(1-0).  Cameroon replied with a penalty (1-1). Cameroon
reply with a goal from play (1-2). England reply with a penalty (2-2). Game 
went to extra time.  England convert a penalty (3-2).  This was not a bad game.
Very fast.  Cameroons were all over the English.  They are as sick as parrots
in the Cameroons today.  They gave the match away by trying to beat England
1-3 instead of holding back.  The first English penalty came with only 8 
minutes to go.

Argentina vs Yogoslavia - Yugoslavia gave the game away.  Argentina were lucky.
Decided on penalties after extra time.  (The worst way to go)

================================================================

Next round:
England vs Germany (Germany favorites)
Italy vs Argentina (Argentina should start booking their flights now)

================================================================

Predictions:
Italy vs Germany for the final.
Italy are the more stylish team.
With the exception of Ireland they have not been pressed.
Germany have been scoring lots of goals.
They improve with every match.

================================================================


Regards,

Brian.

    For those of you who missed it all:
    
    Argentina and Yugoslavia snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. It
    was a pretty horrid game.
    
    Ireland fought valiantly against a technically superior side, but
    showed that sportmanship, maniless and pure enjoyment in sport can
    still exist in the world of big bucks. Without wishing to enter into
    politics, let's hope that the association of an English manager with an
    Irish team will produce some solution to Ireland's problems.
    
    Italy showed a nice line in gold bracelets and chains and there will be
    appalling accidents on Tuesday when they get them entangled with
    Maradona's earring.
    
    Germany disposed of Czechoslovakia with ease, despite a 1-0 score.
    
    Cameroon and England played one of the best matches of the
    championship. The Cameroons are great players: skillful, fearless and
    technically brilliant. They lead 2-1 till 7 minutes from time. England
    finally overhauled them, but played in fits and starts. It was very hot
    and several of the English players are playing with injuries. At the
    end of the match the English players applauded the Cameroons of the
    pitch. (England and Ireland have been by far the most sporting teams in
    the tournament.)
    
    Italy and Germany should now be finalists. Argentina are really quite
    poor, and even if England were a better team, they are not as fit as
    Germany, so...
    
    
    Peter

    Cameroon gave the game away.  They were clearly the better team,
    creating more opportunities than the English but not able to capitalize
    often enough.
    
    It really makes you wonder hoe good Cameroon would be if these players
    were professionals rather than amateurs.

re .-2:

	I too was impressed with Ireland.  Aldridge is a sentimental
	favorite (check the p-name, and you'll know why) and I was
	hoping he'd have scored an equalizer in the Italy game.

	The Irish have every right to be proud.


re Sportsmanship:

	I've always noticed that the English and Irish teams tend
	to be very sporting.  Usually, they're always helping up
	another guy if they foul him and stuff like that.  

	It's funny (not wanting to start a rat hole) that we always
	hear so much about the hooligan element of their supporters,	
	but hear so little about their sportsmanship on the pitch.


re the finals:

	I too think Germany will beat England.  I won't root for either
	team in their game, since both are favorites of mine.

	I'll be sorely disappointed if either Italy or Argentina wins
	it all....

'Saw

    re Italy-Ireland: 
    
    I too was hoping for Ireland to pull off the upset; my wife is Irish,
    in fact some of her cousins from Cork are visiting the U.S. this week.
    
    If it weren't for an Italian player being in the right place at the
    right time on a rebound, it would have ended up 0-0 and who knows what
    might have happened from there.  No question the Irish have a fine team
    (although they could use another strong offensive player), here's hoping
    for their continued success and appearance in the '94 World Cup.
    
    
    re .282, I thought it was Milla who scored the Cameroon penalty kick.
    
    
    
    py

    Paul,
    
    Milla didn't score, but it was Milla who was hauled down creating
    the penalty.  'Roon showed sportsmanship when they kicked the ball
    back to Shelton after the injury to Wright (?)
    
    My observation of why soccer, especially such an important series
    of matches, is dull for me to watch.  It can be an exciting game,
    but, other than Cameroon, every team this weekend that I saw seems
    to be playing 'not to lose' as opposed to 'playing to win'.  No
    agressiveness.  Too cautious.  The players have reins on them.
    ANother problem is that almost all the games seem to be decided
    by penalties.  What a bore.  You watch an exciting match, and what
    decides it?  Skill?  Nah.  An exciting, nail-biting, couch-raising
    play?  Nah.  A refs whistle and a boring free kick?   Yep.   To
    put it in perspective, for the most part scoring is like watching
    extra points in football - except there was no touchdown prior.
    
    Both games yesterday were decided by penalty kicks.  If anything
    ever turned me off more to soccer, yesterday was it.  I can imagine
    the final.  A cautious 0-0 game decided by a guy tripping a guy
    and getting a penalty kick.   YAWN.
    
    These are my opinions.
    
    JD

Cameroon put on the best display of the Mondiale so far last night.

They were absolutely magnificent and would have won if not for the two 
penalty kicks awarded to England...

I'm already looking forward to seeing them again!!

Otherwise, good to see England go on in spite of the above.  They were 
certainly able to capitalize on the (few) chances they had.

rick ellis

    What's the starting time of today's Italy-Argentina game?
    
    
    py

    8pm Italian time.
    
    Peter

Peter,

Make the 7pm.  Tomorrows game also.

That's 2pm here, folks.

HTH,
f�

    Thanks.
    
    Thought while shaving: would be ironic for England to be eliminated on
    July 4th.
    
    
    py

    If you believe the form book, Italy should meet Germany in the finals.
    This would set up a great match against a team that has yet to concede
    a goal in the WC (Italy) and the team that has scored the most goals
    in this WC (Germany).
    
    It would also set up a great match for the Third-Place Playoff -
    a rematch between England and Maradona's "Hand of God" team.  Now
    that will be worth watching!!!
    
    Predictions:
    
    Italy to beat Argentina 2-0.  It won't even be close, but Italy
    have yet to demonstrate their ability to score at will.
    
    I'm torn on predicting the England - Germany game....England believe
    that they are destined for the Finals...(they have played poorly
    the entire tournament and look where they are!!).  Despite early
    form, Germany have not been able to score...Have they peaked too
    soon? Possibly..   Can you tell that I'm trying to hedge my bets??
    
    Well, you're right..I have no backbone.   So.......
    
    Scenario One:
    
    	England are destined...therefore they beat Germany in a scrappy
    game decided by a lucky goal. Germany are unlucky on many
    occasions..they hit the post, have a perfectly good goal disallowed
    etc, etc.  England win 2-1.
    
    	England beat Italy 2-1 in the final because the Italians are
    too nervous.  They allow an early goal (the first of the tournament)
    and fall apart.
    
    
    Scenario two:
    
    	England are knackered after two extra time victories and can't
    stop the German machine and Lothar Matthaus.  Germany win 2-0. 
    Knowing they have a tough game on their hands, the Italians get
    psyched up and beat Germany in a great final 4-3 (after extra time)
    and a nation goes beserk!!!
    
    
    PJ (whose heart likes scenario one but who would beat money on scenario
    two!!)

    Italy - Argentina    3 - 1
    England - W. Germany  1 - 2

    This really amuses me when people say that a game is "boring" when no
    one scores. Did you see the Arentina-Yugoslavia game? Each team had
    several GOOD scoring chances that resulted in shots that went just
    wide/over the net or were stopped either by good saves by the goalkeepers
    or fine defensive plays by the fullbacks. 
    
    If they were playing cautiously and "not to lose" as someone suggested,
    would we really have seen the Yugo right winger bolt off the line at
    the beginnig of the 2nd half toward the top of the box, while his
    center booted a long ball into the area, NEARLY catching the Argies off
    guard?  Would we have seen fullbacks taking the ball on long runs of 60
    to 70 yards along the sidelines before making a pass in front?
    
    Perhaps as a player, I appreciate these parts of the game more so than
    the casual viewer, since I realize how difficult it is to do these things, 
    However, it is the job of the commentators to point out these things to 
    viewers. Unfortunately these guys are mere sports hacks who don't
    really know these things themselves.
    
    Tom

    The refs will never allow Italy to lose in Italy.  Take it to the
    bank.  I'm sure the games will be decided by the refs whistle, as
    it seems a large percentage of these matches are.  Ho-hum.
    
    JD

    Half-time from Naples...
    
    
        Italy  1-0  Argentina
    
        Scillachi

    I thought the Argentina-Yugoslavia game was terribly boring.  
    
    I don't care how many brilliant individual efforts the players put
    forth.  I'm not impressed by shots that hit the post or sail just wide.
    
    It was kick it here, kick it there, kick it in, kick it out, kick it
    high, kick it low, kick it back, kick it forth, kick it up, kick it
    down.   Sprinkle in a shot every five minutes or so and a header every
    so often and keep it going like this for 120 minutes.
    
    Then shoot 5 shots apiece at a virtually helpless goalie to decide your
    nation's very destiny.   Boo.
    
    If Maradona is the Jordan or the Gretzky of soccer, then he ought to
    deliver like they do.  Michael Jordan scores over 30 points a game and
    Gretzky scores well over 2 points a game.  What has Maradona done so
    far ???   One assist against Brazil ???  And we're supposed to fall all
    over ourselves in awe of this magnificent man ???
    
    I was impressed by Maradona in Mexico in 1986.  Especially that
    spectacular goal against England.   I'm not impressed with him now. 
    Cameroon was impressive.  They were playing to win.
    
    Bob Hunt

I think that a Germany - Italy final would have some revenge
aspect for the Germans, who lost to Italy in 82(?)....

Any word on who's the ref for the final?


And I think that playing soccer gives one a different outlook on
the game.  Plus playing gives you a strategic idea of what is going
on, which is why I can be excited almost before the play starts,
because you might see one player break, away from the ball, and you
know what's going down.  Or else you can see the give and go
a split second before it happens...

Gawd I love that sport!

'Saw

    Argentina tied the game. 

    
    Update
    
    
        Italy  1-1 Argentina
                   Canega
    
    
        25 minutes to go

	Still Italy 1 Argentina 1 at the end of regulation. Its in the 1st 
Overtime period now.

	BTW, you guys should have seen Nazz leaving LKG today with an Italian
flag drapped arround his shoulders. Does Italy have a flag desecration law???
If so Nazz would get life!!! :-)

	I wish I had a camera with me. I would have mailed the picture to his 
'other' boss at the Celtics. I'm sure they would have been amused...

Jim H

	Italy/Argentina are stilled tied 1-1 at the end of the OT periods. They
have started the kick-offs, or whatever they are called....

JimH

	Argentina wins!!!! They hit 4 straight penalty kicks. Italy scored on
their first 3 penalty kicks, then missed the next two.

JimH

    Amazing that Italy lost in Italy.  I'm surprised.  But another
    anti-climatic ending.  Those penalty kickoffs are the most bogus
    thangs.  They should play suddne-death OT, like real manly sports
    do.  
    
    JD

    You are so right JD. The only sport that has as bad a system is the NFL
    which doesn't always give both teams a chance to get the ball.
    
    Any predictions on how many suicides /murders tonight in Italy.

    Dave,
    
    I've always felt that in football, the other team should get a chance
    to get the ball if the first team scores right away in sudden death.
    
    But thissoccer thing is dumb.  It's like if in the NBA the played
    an OT, and then had a free throw shooting contest to decide the
    winner, or if hockey did  it.  Can you imagine Game 1 of this year's
    stanly cup final - at the end of the 1st OT it's still tied, so
    they have each team fire 5 shots at the goalie, most in wins?
    Talk about taking away drama.
    
    Like I said earlier, my observations are that most teams are playing
    not to lose, as opposed to playing to win.  That's a big difference.
    They play cautious, cautious, afraid-to-take a chance soccer.  That's
    why Cameroon was interesting to watch - the attacked!!  they played
    offense.  Amazing concepts....
    
    
    JD

    Now, an Argentina-England final would be interesting, more so if they
    put the Falkland Islands down as the ultimate bet!
    
    Charles

    The Sudden Death suggestion is good (comes from a side obviously not
    very knowledgeably in soccer, but right this time for a change).
    
    This might have prevented these incredible results, or some of them.
    Argentina and England have no place at this stage of the tournament,
    they should have been eliminated way earlier. Especially Argentina
    is a perfect anti-example for "Only the good always have luck".
    
    So, the WC should be a piece of cake for Germany, now that Italy is
    out. In terms of skills it should. But ...
    
    Maybe I have to eat crow tomorrow ...
    
    R. (btw. I like the Irish team, but they are the worst bunch of anti-
        Kickers, no skills whatsoever. Great 'heart' and determination, but
    this is kind of pitifully wasted. Hope England plays that way too.
    They did more or less so far)
    

    Rainer,I have seen a lot of soccer and I think I know what I'm talking
    about. This penalty kick thing is assinine.The analogies JD gave are
    valid and soccer has suffered a major credibility blow by not having a
    better way to decide tie games. 
    
    With few exceptions the games in Mundial '90 have been boring and this
    is coming from someone who loves to watch soccer. 

England - Germany 4:5 ot, penalty kicks, reg. 1:1

	Luckier of two mediocre teams won. England: Lot of pressure,
no skills. Germany: Some skills, but no pressure. Result: Mediocre game
with lottery end.

Great class by England in moment of defeat.

Whole thing stinks since Italy out. If Ger. wins it all, nobody here
gives them real credit, because winning over the Maradona jerks, not the 'real'
contender.
 
Hate lottery in sports, thus agreed to sudden death, think twice now:

Other than the mostly-sit/stand-around sports like football and hockey
soccer requires an awfull lot of stamina (play/played both hockey and soccer
in a league, so own experience), a not so sudden death thus possibly a threat
to the player's health. Don't know better solution, penalty kicks stink,
greatly executed by german players, though.

R.

    Re: last.
    
    You jest, surely?
    
    It was a great match (I was there) by two great sides.
    
    Could this be sour grapes because Germany were outplayed?
    
    No skill? Waddle's lob onto the bar? Shilton's saves? Lineker's goal?
    Brehme's tackle on Gascoigne?
    
    Come off it, Rainer. Take your dark glasses off.
    
    Peter
    

        I'm glad that Germany advanced to the finals since I believe that
    they have a better chance to defeat Argentina.  One has to feel for
    Peter Shilton who was tremendous in goal, but in the end his team will
    try for third place.  He made some incredible saves and for someone hia
    age to play at that level is simply amazing.

    -2 must be a real soccer fan to find that a great game! I did not,
    sorry, Sir! I also did not see anybody OUTPLAYING the other. Both goals
    were lucky punches, big help by the defenders in both cases.
    
    What I regard as a great game was Yugosl. - Germany for example, Yug.
    then (and now) one of the best teams in the tournament. My view, O.K.?,
    Sir?
    
    R.

    FWIW, the most entertaining team in the tourney by far was Cameroon.
    Their short passing game in the attacking end was outstanding, and
    they had players who could finish off a play.  England, Argentina
    (surprisingly), Ireland, and to an extent West Germany and Italy all
    played cautious, boring soccer.  I hope Argentina comes alive in the
    final so that we get an exciting contest.  Although Argentina seems
    like a team of destiny, I will pick West Germany to win 1-0.
    
    Has any team ever been as thoroughly outplayed as Argentina in almost
    EVERY game in the entire World Cup, yet reached the finals?
    
    IMO, the two goats for Italy were their two heroes for most of the
    World Cup - Schillaci and Zenga.  Schillaci was offsides at least a
    dozen times, especially late in the game, disprupting every attack.
    Zenga for some strange reason chose this particular cross to come off
    his line, something he rarely did in the tourney.  Of course, he didn't
    come within ten feet of the ball and Caniggia heads it in.  And in the
    penalty kicks, he was wild, jumping way too early.  Maradona's kick was
    a dribbler, but an easy goal once Zenga committed so early.
    
    NAZZ

    Soccer is boring.
    
    Bruce May, 1990 NOTY.
    
    Mark.

    The D.A.M. (tm) factor will lead Argentina to victory. With Ricardo
    Guisti and Claudio Canniggia out, I think D.A.M. & Co. will have to
    push forward and create scoring opportunities, which I think they will 
    convert. Sergio Goycoechea will play the game of his life and keep
    Voeller & Co out of the net. I see 3-1 Argentina. D.A.M getting two
    goals and Burruchaga getting the other one. Matteus will score for
    Germany.

    re the discussion on tiebreakers several replies back:
    
    One other alternative to the current system and sudden death that I've
    heard discussed recently is corner kicks.  If both teams were still
    tied at the end of the two 15-minute extra periods, the team that had
    accrued the most corner kicks would be declared the winner.   
                                                  
    Personally I'd find sudden death a more satisfying alternative, but
    this system would at least give the victory to the team that carried
    the play for 120 minutes.   The current system of penalty kicks in my
    opinion is an artificial situation.
    
    
    py

    You could always have the penalty kicks at the start of the match, that
    way one team would HAVE to go for a win.
    
    :-)

    Anyone knows the kickoff time and TNT showtime for the Final match? 
    Want to know for the VCR....thanks!
    
    Charles

    I've got to say that I *don't* like the penalty kick resolution to a
    game.  Sudden-death overtime has it's advantages.  My recommendation
    would be to go to sudden-death immediately after the regulation time
    period, with the ends being switched every 15 minutes.  For each 30
    minutes of sudden-death, each team may make one substitution.  Possibly
    after 4 15-minutes sudden-death periods, then go to the shoot-out.
    
    It will be interesting to see how much difference the change in the
    off-sides rule makes to the play.  Defense-oriented games in *any*
    sport make for contests which are interesting only to the very
    technically-minded fan.
    
    A&W

>    Anyone knows the kickoff time and TNT showtime for the Final match? 
>    Want to know for the VCR....thanks!
    
    Charles, Gametime is Sunday, 2 PM Eastern...  Not sure about pre-game 
shows, etc....

	Jim M

    Thanks...charles

    !  <<< Note 245.315 by GYPSC::FORST "Rainer Forst @UFC DTN 773-3222" >>>

    ! -2 must be a real soccer fan to find that a great game! I did not,
    
    
    Most of the rest of Europe seemed to find it a great game too. Could
    your reticence have anything to do with the fact that Germany didn't
    win?
    
    No need to call me Sir, M'Lud will do.
    
    Peter

    Regards the alternatives to penalties...
    
    1) Decided on corner kicks...I've played in 7-a-sides and indoor
    matches where this system is used. Once a team figures(or decides
    for a draw) it's very annoying watching them play for corner kicks.
    watching both teams playing towards the corner flags would not be
    intertaining orld cup football, believe me.
    
    2) Sudden death extra-time. Ya know some teams just can't score
    in a month of Sundays...now get two very defensive teams playing
    each other and sit back for 2 and a half days and enjoy! :-(
    Besides you could get the following..."while we were showing the
    last commercial Spain just scored and are now the WC champs...sorry
    you missed it,but tough titty!"
    
    Penalty shoot-outs are not new to the World Cup...it just so happens
    that this particular one has seen more of them than normal...that's
    not the fault of the penno-kick system...just a reflection of the
    teams involved and the defensive/cautious was the World's top teams
    play in the 1990's...we gotta get used to it!
    
    - Dave K.

    M'Lud (whatever that means),
    
    I can't speak for the rest of europe (can you?). My TV-set (maybe there
    is a good-to-bad-converter in it) told me it was not that great. I also
    try to judge regardless of participants/results. Nobody can succeed
    100% in trying that (otherwise sport was boring).
    And, btw. germany won.
    
    R.

    It has got a converter on it!
    
    Germany won the penalties, not the match. (BTW, there was no match
    between Germany and Jugo, as there was only one team on the field)
    
    Hochheit will do as a translation for M'lud.
    
    P

    Damn, there goes those hooligans again.  Will they ever learn that
    fighting, vandalism, and killing will not change the score?
    
    Not a big soccer fan, but I'm looking forward to the championship game
    on Sunday.  I look for Germany to take it, 3-1.
    
    H�wk

    I for one think that penalties is the best way to end a tie game.  The
    excitement of watching one-on-one duels is what the sport is all about.
    Perhaps they should move the penalty spot back a few meters thereby
    giving the goalies a better opportunity to save (rather than guess the
    spot of) a kick.
    
    When I was still in Europe my school team reached the semifinals of a
    high school competition (for International schools).  Our team tied the
    team from Zurich and thus ended up going into penalties.  My miss
    eliminated us from the competition and that moment still haunts me. 
    Nonetheless I still support the use of penalty kicks to decide a draw.
    
    BTW, please West Germany dont let Dic*head Maradona win another WC.

    Re: .330
    
    I'm gonna have to agree about the penalty shoot-out.I find it quite
    exciting.After 120 minutes of soccer,they've got to decide a winner
    somehow.......these guys cant run forever. I do believe that if an
    overtime tie occurs in the final game,it will be re-scheduled and
    played in it's entirety.They will then proceed with the penalty kicks
    if such a tie occurs in the latter.
    I see Alemania eating Argentina's lunch Sunday.Big time revenge from
    the Mexico'86 cup!
    
    GO ALEMANIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    The only reason Germany will win (if they do) is because they will be
    playing 6 starters and 5 subs. Add that to the fact that the game is in
    Europe and the refs will protect germany and you got a tough situation
    for Argentina. I still think Argentina will win 'tho.
                   

    No sweat, jerk Maradona won't do it again. Think that England was the
    bigger problem. Problem is the german players think that, too. Always
    a dangerous attitude in active play. As said, since Italy is out the
    whole thing stinks: Instead of having the 'dream final' (of the two
    teams, which, integrated over the whole tournament and all ingredients, 
    were the best) with a 50:50 chance, we now have kind of a
    'duty-victory' situation, which is ugly. The game could turn out to
    be accordingly.
    
    R.

    
    >>No sweat, jerk Maradona won't do it again. Think that England was the
    >>bigger problem. Problem is the german players think that, too. Always
    >>a dangerous attitude in active play.
    
    Don't sell Argentina short. They will play up to potential and destroy
    the German defense.
    
    
    >As said, since Italy is out the
    >whole thing stinks: Instead of having the 'dream final' (of the two
    >teams, which, integrated over the whole tournament and all ingredients, 
    >were the best) with a 50:50 chance, we now have kind of a
    >'duty-victory' situation, which is ugly. The game could turn out to
    >be accordingly.   
    
    
    I agree to a point. Italy-Cameroon would have been a helluva final.
    Even better would have been Brazil-Cameroon. Germany-Argentina will be
    a foul-ridden, game with some brilliant play as a side dish. The desert
    will be watching some dangerous scoring opportunities of which
    Argentina will get 3 and Germany will get 1. Matteus's goal will be a
    nice one, Tune in early.

    Well, to me, and evidently to others, the penalty kick situation
    is the worst possible way of ending a match.  It's anti-climatic,
    and IMO, the only way a goalie ever makes a save is when the kicker
    makes a horrendous shot.   In hockey, they keep playing until someone
    scores.   I feel that if they went to a sudden death, teams would
    be less apt to play for the tie.   
    
    The penalty kick, coupled by most coached being afraid to open up
    the game and playing 'not to lose' is what turns off me to watching
    soccer, and does a lot of other folks.   To me, it would be like
    deciding the champeenship game in basketball by lining 5 guys up
    at the free throw line and having them shoot until one  team betters
    the other.  YAWN.  I'd never watch basketball if that was how 
    important games were decided.   
    
    JMHO
    
    JD

    Hockey games usually last for 1 hour right? plus ot's are 20 minutes.
    Soccer is 90 minutes plus 30 minutes of ot. 
    
    Hockey needs three ot's to match soccer's match soccer's ot.
    
    
    Hockey players get to rest when another line comes on. Soccer players
    is constantly running.
    
    Face it, comparing the two is not the same.
    
    I do however agree that penalty kicks are not the way to go. Sudden
    death, play 'til there's a winner is best. 
    
    
    

    Can't see how Argentina will score three goals with Caniggia (sp?)
    sitting out.  He was the entire offense vs. Italy, and is their only
    forward with speed.
    
    Logic telss me West Germany 2-0; emotion tells me Argentina wins on
    penalties 4-3 after a 1-1 tie.
    
    NAZZ

    Exactly, cannot be compared.
    
    JD, using the basketball analogy with a best of foul shooting to
    determine the winner is absurd!  What's got into your objective haid? 
    :-)
    
    Actually, I found the penalty kicks quite entertaining.  Maybe it was
    curiosity cause I'd never seen one.  But, I definitely would not have
    continued watching the game had there been more extra times.  Being a
    typical American, I need scoring, and the penalty kicks gave me just
    that!
    
    H�wk

    After a certain point, penalty kicks probably *are* the way to go.  I
    like the idea of moving the spot back (possibly to the edge of the
    box?) for the end-game shot taking.  But sudden death would also help
    before reaching the penalty kick point.
    
    I have a feeling that Sunday's match will be ugly - lots of fouls.  I'm
    actually looking forward to the 3rd place game on Saturday more. 
    There's less at stake, the teams involved seem to be 'cleaner' (very
    subjective judgement) and I think the flow of play should be better. 
    All in all, it's been an interesting month's worth of play.  I just
    wish we had an opportunity in this country to see more of this caliber
    of play - once every four years doesn't quite hack it.
    
    A&W

    re 337 & 339
    
    I played soccer for many years,yet I have to disagree with you about
    penalty kicks and agree with JD. One point that never gets mentioned is
    that all 22 players are not constantly running. There are a lot of rest
    periods for certain players,especially when there are a lot of players
    taking dives.
    
    I say so what if the players are tired,that would add to the drama and
    skill. I think fitness and GOALS should be the deciding factor.This
    penalty kick crap really takes away from the game.I can't believe how
    many soccer fans can't see this.

    re -1
    Fans is the key word here. We like the game and everything about it,
    penalty kicks?....big deal,I can live with it. Sure you got players
    on the bench resting,but the point is to field your best 11 and thats
    it,you dont send in a new line when everybody's tired.Anyway your
    limited to substitutions in World Cup play,so after 2 hours of
    scorelessness(or tie) the penalty kicks in my opinion are quite
    essential.
    Saturdays game should be entertaining.......nothing really to lose
    for both teams; we should see alot of imagination and trickery,not
    to mention alot of show-boatiness and creativity.Should be fun.
    
    Your through Argentina,...go home with the Second place banner.
    GO ALEMANIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    

   � Saturdays game should be entertaining.......nothing really to lose
   � for both teams; we should see alot of imagination and trickery,not
   � to mention alot of show-boatiness and creativity.Should be fun.
    
    We've seen a solid month's worth of supposedly world class soccer
    played by teams from around the globe with "nothing really to lose". 
    And with the exception of Cameroon, we've seen very little imagination,
    trickery, show-boatiness (love that word), or creativity.
    
    What makes soccer fans think the final game will be anything different
    but two teams that play cautious, positional, mistake-free soccer for
    120 minutes followed by an anti-climatic point-blank shooting orgy.
    
    Sorry but I'm expecting a flat finale to what could have been a great
    tournament.
    
    Bob Hunt

    Argentina 0 - Germany 1	World-Champ. Final
    
    	No contest. There was only one team on the field. Argentina, a
    shame for a finalist, did not threaten the german goal one single time.
    Germany had more scoring chances than the times Argentina was able to
    cross the midfield line. The most one-sided game of the whole
    tournament, including Germany vs. Arab Emirates (who were able to score
    once). A proof that Argentina did not belong in the final. Germany
    partly
    played well by totally controlling the opponent but was pretty weak in
    converting the superiority. It took a donation of the ref. to score on
    a penalty shot late in the game. No problem to accept this favour,
    though, since some minutes before the ref. denied a clear penalty shot.
    As usual with latin american teams, the Argentinians had no class to
    accept an opponents superiority during the game (they had to realize
    after 5 minutes of play that they had no chance at all), which lead to
    sending of of two players (one deserved - Monzon, one not so clear) and
    also after it. I have the suspicion, when looking at the crying
    players,
    that some of them had the guts to act disappointed or ripped-off. I can
    understand the crying when it was of joy to have managed to stumble
    into the final and then get a free-of-charge lesson. That much luck
    does not happen to everybody every day. Maradona was a no-show, except
    when whining and acting dead on the grass.
    All in all not a good game, because (other than the Germany-Yug. game)
    this was too one-sided and the only thrill was when finally Germany
    would score.
    Only Brazil did a little for the latin american soccer, it will not be
    successfull, neither in europe nor in south-america, if they do not
    change to a little bit more offensive soccer.
    
    Italy 2 - England 1        for 3rd place.
    
    	This game was better than the champ. game, which is easy, because
    it
    was about the 'Golden Ananas'. Both played pretty well, only the ref.
    was a disaster. He granted a joke of a penalty kick, then disallowed
    a perfectly legal goal.
    
    All in all ref. stunk in this tournament.
    
    
    I'm now looking forward to the hockey season (and dream if our boys
    only could be as slightly successful there as in soccer)
    
    R.
    	

    Forgot the most important: More or less at the same time of the WC win
    those tennis jerks Becker and Graf lost at Wimbledon. Great! Hope
    this will decrease the importance of this tennis chicken-shit in our
    country! Leave this crap to others, we don't need it.
    
    R.

    re: .310
    Rainer, I hope you've changed your opinion about England following
    there entertaining matches against Germany and Italy...I think they
    finally showed some of the flair and skills that they are capable
    of... and I think you'll be hearing a lot more of Gascoigne, Platt,
    Walker, Wright and Parker!!
    
    re: .316
    Nazz, did you have any money on your 1-0 prediction????  ....Pity
                                                                 
    re: .308
    JD, how can you say that a penalty shoot-out "takes away drama"!!!!
    I think they create it!!!...artificially, perhaps,  but you won't
    convince me that there is NO drama.  (I would accept that it is
    not a satistying way to win,  but DRAMA you get!!)
    
    
    In defense of the penalty shoot-out, I have one answer....Score
    a frigging goal during regulation, and you won't have to suffer
    the penalty lottery!!!   I know that sounds naive, but I do agree
    that teams have been playing 'not to lose' rather than 'to win'.
    I hope that FIFA's rule change about offside will enable more goals
    to be scored and will result in more positive football.  But FIFA
    must not use referees as linesmen - if you needed a reason, look
    at Italy's last disallowed goal against England.  Ferri was 5 yards
    ONSIDE and the referee (in a linesman uniform) made the wrong call.
    

    Give Argentina credit!!!             
    
    They had two "firsts" in yesterday's final:
    
    	* First team not to score a goal in a WC final
    
    	* First team to have a player sent off in a WC final
    
    Says something about the game doesn't it!!!!
    
    
    This final summed up the entire competition for me.  It was mediocre,
    littered with poor refereeing decisions and ludicrous play-acting
    by both teams.  Its an embarrasment to the game of soccer and Germany
    are thoroughly unworthy winners.  
    
    Bruce, I'm almost ready to join your 'manly sports' bandwagon, because
    last night's game could hardly be called "sport".   It was a vehicle
    for play-acting prima-donnas and showed the world who decitful people
    become when the prize gets bigger.
    
    
    There is no comparison with the thrilling, well-mannered game played
    on Saturday night between England and Italy.  I know there was nothing
    at stake (except pride), but that is the way the game should be played.
    
    Just my not-so-humble opinion,
    PJ

    Yep, other than Argentina England kind of improved during the
    tournament. Still it remains the fact that they are technically too
    'stiff' to convert their pressure to winning it all. This story goes on
    since more than 20 years, the 'motherland' was pretty unsuccessfull in
    the light of what they still think of themselves. And it will continue
    without a change of attitude.
    
    A worthy winner of such a tournament is the team which plays well
    during the entire tournament and has all the tools needed, such as
    technical skills, stamina and tactical ability. It is out of any
    question that in terms of that only two teams deserved to win, Italy
    and Germany. It is not sufficient to play one or two good games (like
    England) or to be only strong in technical skills, like Brazil and
    Kamerun. Thus a quality-grouping should look like this:
    
    1. {Italy, Germany}
    2. {Belgique, CSFR, USSR (completely ripped-off), England, Jugoslavija,
        Holland}
    3. {Kamerun, Brazil, Romania, Spain}
    4. the insignificant rest
    
    If I forgot someone, sorry. I did explicitely not forget Argentina,
    Ireland and the like, though.
    
    That's it for soccer,
    
    R.

gee, I haven't read all the replies but here's my .25 worth...


I don't think West Germany was unworthy.  The controlled the game
throughout.  Their only crime was that they didn't finish properly,
but they outshot Argentina by some egregious amount.

The officiating was heinous.  I felt bad that a ref would have that
much effect on a championship game.  Mick Luckhurst made a good point
though, that with all the rule changes and stuff, it was not made
clear to the refs prior to Italia '90 just how the games should
be called (ie consistently).

Voeller had some fine chances, and so did Klinnsman....

I'll be glad when they change the offside rule...

Congrats Germany...fine job....

'Saw

    Ranier, this must certainly be a happy day for your country,
    congratulations and enjoy!
    
    
    py

    Germany.....Unworthy champions?! Get the F*ck outta town.What do you
    know anyway?! The Germans kicked the Argentinians asses..clearly!
    Ole blubbering Maradona....had he played better(hell had he played at
    all) instead of whining to the ref and laying down maybe they would
    have done better.And what a bunch of un-classy,poor sported jerks
    the Argentinians are,they were ready to kill the ref.The one that 
    literally clothes-lined the German deserved the red card,and limp
    dick Maradona should have gotten his yellow for almost running the ref
    over instead of whining to him.Bunch of idiots.
    Good for Germany!!!!!! Couldnt have picked a more deserving champion.
    
    ALEMANIA-WELT MEISTERS 1990!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    True, the game could've been won in finer fashion however, you have to
    keep in mind that this was a month-long tournament.  It's a tough road
    to the championship game.  Germany deserves the win.
    
    Yes, the ref had an effect on the game yesterday, but Argentina got
    what it deserved.  Can't feel sorry for them at all........
    
    The German goalkeeper didn't make a save all day.  Does this also mean
    that Argentina had *no* shots on goal?  Still, an amazing stat!
    
    H�wk

    < Note 245.288 by RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JO "YAWN, another no-hitter,
    ho-hum..." >
    
    >I can imagine the final.  A cautious 0-0 game decided by a guy
    >tripping a guy and getting a penalty kick.   YAWN.
    
    >These are my opinions.
    
    >JD                                                    
     
    JD, your a sage, man. Other than the "cautious" part, you hit the
    nail on the head almost a week ago today. Germany outshot the
    Argentines 16-1 and clearly outplayed their opponents. Maradonna
    was roughed up a bit but nothing extreme.
    
    Interesting that after the match the fans were chanting "Duetchland"
    - not West Germany or FRG. The German coach stated that when 1994
    comes along and players from Dresden, Liepzig and other East German
    cities are on the national team that Germany will be unbeatable.
    
    Congrats, Rainer, to you and your (mine, too, but gotta go back
    6 decades) country.
    
    Rich
    

    Thanks for congrats. I did not see much of celebration, it is not like
    in Italy or so.
    
    Seriously, I like to participate in those sports notes as an
    'every-day-short-vacation' from our so 'important' everyday work. 
    But it is not of real importance, neither for me, nor for our country,
    which was blessed in the last months with much more important events.
    In the light of that soccer is seen by the majority over here. Without
    any sarcasm or arrogance i'd like to add that in terms to 'lighten' the
    burden of every-day life the WC should have gone to Argentina or
    Kamerun. My parents and our press told me how much a victory in a
    world-wide sports event, like Germany's win in 1954, can put some hope
    and optimism in the hearts of people, who's country 'lies flat on the
    ground' economically, politically, like Germany back then, and like,
    of course for some other reasons, large parts of South America and
    Afrika.
    
    R.

I thought at one point Argentina had been credited with a shot on goal.
I don't know the criteria for that...I mean, if Ihlgner didn't make
a save....

Some thoughts:

	Argentina was giving Germany the wings, both offensively and
	defensively.   Had Klinsman, Voeller and #14 (Buchwald?) been
	able to convert on their (many) chances, the score could have
	been 3 or 4 to 0.

	On defense, Germany knew that if they could clear, they'd
	have a relatively unmarked man out on the wing to start a 
	rush.

	Argentina is famed for midfield control.  I think Germany usurped
	that honor yesterday.  The German midfielders really hustled,
	and made many good tackles.

	Add all that up, and what you get is an Argentina that was
	waiting for a miracle breakaway that never came.

The penalty call was a good call.  The Argentinian defender did clobber
Voeller, and Voeller was skilled at letting it be seen.   That's the
essence of the game, I guess...

Next time out, I'd like to see some consistent ref-ing, and hopefully
the new offsides rule will add some excitement to offensive play...

later,
f�

I'd like to see FIFA institute a form of sudden death that we used in high 
school to break ties...

If after regular time the game is tied you start playing overtime...every 5 
minutes 1 player from each side is pulled from the field. When you get down to 
a 7 on 7 game (if the score is still tied) the goalies are not allowed to use 
their hands any more...

Eventually somebody scores...and it takes some skill not just blasting the ball
from 11 yards away..

re: The Final...

 Germany totally outplayed Argentina who were obviously playing for penalties.
The abuse of the ref was abysmal...FIFA should institute a spot on the field
where the ref goes during a situation like that and noone can approach him until
they teams are cooled down. If anybody goes within the spot they get an 
immediate red card....

I thought this a very dissapointing cup and hope that the game can emerge 
beyond the conservatism and professional fouling that has overtaken it. FIFA
needs to make some rule changes to insure the evolution of the game so that 
skill and not luck becomes the predominant factor in winning.


Metz

    .356: Agree.
    
    I can't imagine that Beckenbauer really said that with the east german
    players added Germany will be unbeatable in '94. Would be a very stupid
    statement (and politically not very delicate as well). Sure (soon
    former) east germany will add to the talent base, but in sports 1+1
    is not automatically = 2. One name to note is Andreas Thom, who for
    me is already a better center than Rudi Voeller. He will shine in 94.
    If the british come up with 2 teams only, one for Ireland, the other
    for the whole UK {England, Scotland, Wales, N.Ireland} and they change
    a little bit to more technical play, that is going to be a strong
    challenge! You always have to count on Italy (lots of support by Italo-
    Americans, I guess). So, unbeatable is nonsense and I think he didi not
    say so.
    
    I also would not mind a system change to encourage offensive play in-
    staed of hoping for this penalty-shot lottery.
    
    R.

    	I've heard several references to a change in the offside rules.
    
    	Would someone elaborate on what the changes will be?
    
    	Scott

Scott --


As it stands now, a man who is even with the second defender between
him and goal is offsides.  There must be two men between an offensive
guy and the goal when a pass is made.

Starting sometime soon (don't know when), "even" will become
onside....

HTH,
'Saw

    I'm elated that Germany won the WC, Argentina stunk.  The Germans might
    not have the best skilled WC teams, but they are consistant and are
    always one of the favorites. No other team can match Germany's
    consistancy in the last three WC.  It was their turn to shine, and they
    really deserved it.

Question....

Perhaps this belongs in the question note, but I know I'll get
a response here...


Throughout the Cup, England's flag was shown as a red cross on a field
of white.  This was the first time I'd ever seen this.  Am I correct
in assuming that that is the flag of England, and that the Union Jack
is a flag for all of Great Britain?

If I'm incorrect, can someone set me straight?

thanks,
'Saw

    I have a solution to the penalty kick fiasco ....
    
    How about, if the score is tied at the end of the two overtimes,
    playing WITHOUT a keeper?  This would be a sudden death stage,
    first team to shoot into an empty net wins.  If a player is fouled in
    the box, you can re-insert the keeper for the penalty kick.
    
    What do you think?
    
    NAZZ

    'Saw, i'm pretty sure you are right  about the english/british flag.
    British noters should give the final word.
    
    R.

    'Saw,
    
    The Flag for England is the Cross of St George (Red Cross on a 
    white background). The Union Jack is the Flag for Britain. This
    is a 'blend' of the Crosses of St George, St Andrew for Scotland
    and St David (I think) for Wales.
    
    Wayne.

Too easy NAzz...

These guys could put it into an open net from the initial kick-off...It would 
be similar to starting sudden death OT in the NFL by giving the team winning the
toss the ball at the opponents 20 yard line....

Metz

Thanks Wayne...

I knew St Andrew was for Scotland, but being your typical American
who knows little about other countries ;^), I wasn't sure....

Much thanks,
'Saw

    You don't think defenders would be stationed in the area to head off
    (pun intended) any long salvos?  I think that a premium would be placed
    on crisp short passes to open up the defense for a clear shot.  And
    after watching the alleged marksmanship of the best players in the
    world for the last month, I'm not so sure how easy scoring a goal
    without a keeper would be!
    
    NAZZ

Finishing in soccer is probably one of the hardest things to do in
sport.  Volley kicks look easy.  They are not.  Headers look easy.
They are not.

Sometimes we expect strikers to be super human....

One of my favorite memories was watching an English qualifying game
wherein this on striker vaulted high over an opponent, fully extended,
and flying forward at the same time (in and of itself quite an 
athletic accomplishment).  He managed to get his head on the ball,
and the shot missed hitting the net by maybe six inches.

The color commentator was all over the guy about his inability to finish.

The one thing I would have criticized with Germany yesterday was 
the one shot by a midfielder that went wide, when he had Voeller pretty
much open on the other side.  (Might the midfielder have been Littbarski?
Can't remember).

With all the chances yesterday, you would have expected either Voeller
of Klinsman to find the mesh.....

Oh well....

'Saw

    I think the US will have trouble filling stadiums in 1994. Especially
    after watching the final. Granted, it was the only game in the WC
    that I watched, but you would figure that the final would be the most 
    exciting. Wrong. I'm not much of a soccer fan, and the final really
    turned me off. Argentina swallows. Not even a decent scoring chance
    in the whole game. I could watch a 1-0 game if both teams have at
    least 5-7 honest scoring opportunities. But 1 shot on goal? Boo.
    Get real FIFA, make the game more exciting somehow. Missed chances
    are the deciding factor in most sporting events, but Argentina
    missed the whole damn game. I'm dissapointed that Italy-Germany
    didnt happen. Well, it seems Germany has 1 more thing to be happy
    about. Congrats, its been one helluva year for Germans.
    
    			Rich Colotti
    

    Rainer et al,
    
    I suppose I should elaborate on my comment about Germany being
    "unworthy" winners.
    
    I would agree that over the entire month, Germany looked the best
    team by far.  They were well-organised, played good positive football
    and were entertaining to watch for most of their matches.  There
    were a few other teams who played in a similar fashion (Italy,
    Cameroon, England in their last three matches) but none of them
    played as consistently as Germany.
    
    I said they were "unworthy" because on the night of the final, they
    forgot about playing football and entertaining the viewing public
    and choose, what I consider to be, crude and unsportsmanlike tactics
    to beat the Argentinians.
    
    Let me explain....The Germans knew that the fiery temperment of
    the Argentinians and their lack of true skill would soon get the
    better of them.  Going into the final, the Argentinians had the worst
    disciplinary record of the tournament - they committed 152 fouls (or
    one every four minutes), had 19 players booked and one sent off.
    The Germans knew that if they could exploit this fiery temperment,
    the Argentinians would get themselves into trouble and victory would
    be easy.   So the German tactics were to make every foul look lethal.
    
    And they played it to perfection, I'm afraid to say.  They forgot
    about the footballing skills that got them to the final and become
    actors....with Klinsman being the worst offender.  In Germany's
    defence, I will say that their tactics worked - the referee lost
    control of the game, the Argentinians became increasingly frustrated
    Fortunately the best team of the tournament won the championship,
    but they won it in the most "unworthy" style.
     
    As an example, look at the foul that got Monzon sent off.  Yes,
    it was a foul and yes, it was probably a bookable foul, but Monzon
    had been on the field 10 minutes and had not been cautioned before,
    s why was he sent off.  If you watched Klinsman after the tackle,
    he writhed in agony on the field as if he had been electrocuted
    or had just gone 10 rounds with Mike Tyson.  He made the foul look
    10 times worse than it really was.  Yet after the player had been
    sent off, he got right up and ran into the penalty area to wait
    for the free-kick - he didn't even limp to make it look realistic.
    
    This is not how you endear yourself to spectators who expect that
    a World Cup Final will give you the best of what the game of soccer
    can really offer.  This is why I'm disappointed with Germany's winning
    (or should it be whinning) performance.
    
    Perhaps, the prize has become too important and its not how you
    play the game, but who wins that counts.
    
    Oh well,
    PJ
    
    
    PS  After the final, when England were presented with the Fair Play
    award (ironic isn't it!!), Gary Lineker went to congratulate Klinsmann
    and one of the English commentators said,  " I've just seen Gary
    shake hands with Klinsmann - its a wonder Klinsmann hasn't fallen
    down!!"

    
>    Let me explain....The Germans knew that the fiery temperment of
>    the Argentinians and their lack of true skill would soon get the
>    better of them.  Going into the final, the Argentinians had the worst
>    disciplinary record of the tournament - they committed 152 fouls (or
>    one every four minutes), had 19 players booked and one sent off.
>    The Germans knew that if they could exploit this fiery temperment,
>    the Argentinians would get themselves into trouble and victory would
>    be easy.   So the German tactics were to make every foul look lethal.
    
>    And they played it to perfection, I'm afraid to say.  They forgot
>    about the footballing skills that got them to the final and become
>    actors....with Klinsman being the worst offender.  In Germany's
>    defence, I will say that their tactics worked - the referee lost
>    control of the game, the Argentinians became increasingly frustrated
>    Fortunately the best team of the tournament won the championship,
>    but they won it in the most "unworthy" style.
     
 
 Proves the BOSS's point it's a sissy game when acting can decide the
 MAJOR championship of the sport...  ;^)

 tried to watch a couple of times and to me it's as boring as baseball
 to watch but lots of fun to play.

 they need some drastic rule changes.....

mike

    It's a shame ...
    
    The pageantry is wonderful, the colors are vivid, the players are
    gifted, the fans are spirited, the tradition is noble, the stakes are
    elevated.   All this describes the World Cup ...
    
    But the games were a letdown ...  
    
    Bob Hunt

    Excuse me, but what is all this about simulation by the Germans? They
    were on the receiving end of some very nasty fouls committed by a team
    whose only weapon was the boot.
    
    Peter

  Yup, Mike,

  The game is in drastic need of an overhaul:

- To stop this pee-pee-smooching writhing around, players who stay down more
  than, say, 20-30 seconds should leave the pitch until the next interruption
  in play.  

- Some sort of overtime rule is needed - I can't believe how years of 
  preparation from some teams has been spoiled by missing some silly
  penalty kick.  Sudden Death would be preferable as it is so full of suspense.

- Draws should be taken out of the World Cup completely.  That would end this
  garbage of playing for a tie instead of trying to win.  Can you imagine
  each team playing their hearts out knowing that they have to win!!!

- The refereeing is not so much the fault of the referees although they seem
  to be far too emotionally involved in what happens.  There should be more
  referees/linesmen to monitor the action.

Alas, there are too many Olde Worlde Olde Farts around who go crazy at the
thought of changing the smallest rule.

Personally, I think the Americans will probably die laughing at some of the
goings on, and perhaps that could be the catalyst for some badly needed 
updating of the rules.

rick ellis

    An Olde Worlde Ole Farte speaks: 
    
    Rick, I think you're partly right and partly wrong.
    
    A draw is a valid score in football. I don't think you can muck around
    with it.
    
    Histrionics are a natural thing to the peoples of much of the world.
    It's difficult to stop.
    
    I'm all for Sudden Death. I think it would work. Penalties mean
    nothing.
    
    The WC should revert to 16 teams. Perhaps there could be some pre-WC
    playoffs.
    
    Football is a sport that suffers from the limelight of a world stage.
    Over-exposure in the US (allied to the current corrupt administration)
    could do it irreperable harm.
    
    Peter
    
    

    Just a question, a recurring theme throughout all the discussions
    seems to be that any non-european team in not talented.  I've read
    it over and over and over.   Latin America has always produced 
    great teams, including the 86 champion, Argentina, which had a chance
    to repeat.   
    
    JD

Oy, Peter,

Didn't mean you as olde Farte - I was thinking of the FIFA guys they show on
TV sometimes - They all seem to be hovering around 75 and look like they'd
have trouble ordering lunch, let alone forging the future of football.

I agree that a draw is a valid score but would prefer to see a change than
abuse of it.  I believe it was Ireland and Holland who conveniently stopped 
playing when they had both scored and thusly qualified and thought it was 
pretty cheap in a world final.

Also, the 16 teams with a playoff may be an idea although I would prefer to
keep the 24 as I thought that it added something to the international side
of it with teams like the South Koreans and USA.

rick ellis

    .377
    
    You are right,a certain 'euro-centrism' exists (probably me included).
    Everybody gave Kamerun credit for their talent. But talent is only one
    part of the game.
    Sure there were great latin american teams (Brazil of the Pele era),
    this time there were none and Argentina had no chance at all to repeat.
    
    And now you might understand that some europeans are upset with the
    'NHL-centrism' of the north american hockey world ...
    
    R.

    
    Just think, if it hadn't been for the WC, Piston fans would still
    think that Cameroon was either a red/purple color or a type of coconut
    cookie.
    
    Dickster
    

    Reprinted w/o Permission:    
    
    Diego Maradona, frustrated at Argentina's loss in the World Cup, said
    the Mafia orchestrated a plot to ensure a West German Victory.
    
    Maradona, the Argentine captain, said that Mexican referee Edgardo
    Codesai was a stronger opponent than West Germany in Sunday's
    Championship match.  Codesai ejected two Argentine players and awarded
    the decisive penalty kick to the Germans in the late-going.
    
    "The penalty which defeated us did not exist and was given to award
    victory to West Germany and punish Argentina," Maradona said....
    
    
    And ya guys thought us Bruins fans were bad!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Wheel

    re .381:
                                   
    And I suppose it was entirely the referee's fault that Argentina got a
    grand total of one shot on the German goal...maybe it's time to start
    the "Sports Twit of the Week" topic again.
    
    
    py

    Paul,
    
    I thought it was kinda funny myself....I couldn't wait to post it in
    here.
    
    Wheel
    
    (And I wasn't lyin' about it either)

   Re: World Cup:

   	Missed the whole thing, but read recaps in papers.
   	Conclusion: I missed nothing very interesting.

   Re: Penalty Kicks to decide a game:

   	Seems stupid. Why not just have a kicking competition and avoid
   	all the needless racing about?

   I'd vote for sudden (or not so sudden death), let 'em play until
   somebody wins, even if it takes a couple weeks. OR, maybe the goalies
   could battle it out with miniature shields and beer can openers. Last
   one standing wins.

   Mike JN

    Next thing you are going to read is that poor Diego is going to blame
    the "cheerleaders" for the penalty that cost them the game.
    Sheeeeeesh...This never stops!!!!!
    
    Diego Primadonna, haven't we heard this one before somewhere?...!!!!

re. -1

No way, Jack

Next thing we're gonna read is either Diego is

  1.  Hiding back in old Good Airs, or
  2.  Trying to run around playing football in the bottom of the Bay of
      Napoli with a pair of cement shoes.

He's got more nerve than I thought - saying something like that when you
live where he does takes balls.

rick ellis

    I still do not see the benefit of changing the penalty kick rule. the
    winner of a game advances the loser goes home.  The losing team might
    have played the better game, but if they were better why could they not
    score prior to the penalty kicks ?
    
    How many times in basketball have we seen the last 2 minutes of a game
    take 10-15 minutes of airtime ?  The team has to make the foul shots
    (penalty kicks) if not the other team has a chance to score (panalty
    kicks again) and maybe even win the game.  In this scenario the better
    team loses (see Portland Trailblazers) because they could not convert
    opportunities.

    From today's Boston Herald:
    
    Onomo Dismas, a 46-year old Cameroonian witch-doctor who traveled with
    the national team to Italy, has claimed in Yaounde that someone cast a
    spell on the ball that was used in his country's quarterfinals defeat
    in the World Cup against England.
    
    Can't wait till tomorrow.......
    
    Wheel

<><><><><><><><>  T h e   V O G O N   N e w s   S e r v i c e  <><><><><><><><>

 Edition : 2106            Wednesday 11-Jul-1990            Circulation :  8281 

    UK News
    -------
    European football's governing body, UEFA, is today expected to approve
    the return of English clubs to European competition.  Sports minister
    Colin Moynihan will recommend England's return to European football in
    the light of the fans' relatively good behavior during the World Cup. 
    UEFA says it will attach considerable weight to Mr Moynihan's
    recommendations.  Yesterday, Government sources said Mrs Thatcher had
    given her approval to the lifting of the ban on English clubs.
                                                                  

    For what it's worth -
    
    I don't like the endless parade to the foul line at the end of
    basketball games either.
    
    John

    Good point relating all the intentional fouls in the last 2 minutes of
    a basketball game to that of penalty shooting.  Never thought of it
    like that, but you're absolutely right, it's very similar to soccer's
    penalty kick shootout.  Interesting.
    
    H�wk

    Actually,
    
    It's not anything like the penalty shooting.  Fouling usually occurs
    when one team goes ahead, and the other team is trying to catch
    up.  They foul to save time, and hope for a miss.   It would be
    the same if at the end of regulation (or some other set time limit),
    they lined guys up and had them shoot foul shots, say 10 shots in
    all, and the team with the best score wins the game.  Then it would
    be like soccer penalty kicks.  
    
    JD

      Eggs-ackly, JD, its nothing like foul shots.

   Mike JN

    Gee, Diegito, I'm not quite sure what you meant by that "Mafia"
    comment. If the Mafia could influence the outcome of the game do you
    REALLY think they would fix it so the GERMANS would win?? Why didn't
    they fix the semifinal so the AZZURI would have won?
    
    BTW, this isn't the first time he has used the "Mafia" excuse. He was
    claiming that the mafia threatened that they would break both of his 
    legs when a rumor surfaced that he'd leave his Napoli club for France 
    (Marseille, I think)
    
    It should be nothing new to anyone who is familiar with Primadonna (see
    BALZAC::FOOTBALL conference), but as a player, he can be brilliant. As
    a human being, the man is an idiot. Nuff said.
    
    Tom   

    I'll say it again....
    
    Teams that can not separate themselves by at least one goal over
    the course of 120 minutes deserve the indignity and pressure of
    a penalty shoot-out.
    
    Alright Jack????
    PJ

I can see using penalties for some games, but I would have been
severely disappointed had the final come down to penalties.

In that particular instance, I would think they'd reschedule and
play another full match.  (I thought that was the way it used to 
be done anyway)...

fw

    Re: -2
    
    Well said PJ.

.389�< Note 245.389 by CAM::WAY "Candy crunch courtesy of McMahon" >

    And Kevin Sheedy says..."Thanks very much for the pass,Macca" :-)
    
    - Dave K.
    ps. i was only looking for .400

    Only one week after the (not so) glorious win at the WC there is
    nothing to read/see/hear about the event in our media (well, almost
    nothing) any more. Times fly.
    
    R.

I should type in the article from Sports Illustrated.  I thought
it was rather well done.  It was long though.  It was not very
complimentary to Maradona (heh, heh, heh)....

'Saw

    Saw,
    
    The better article was at the back of SI.   Made me proud, and woulda
    made the BOSS proud too.
    
    JD

Which one, JD?

Not the humongous article on golf-course designers?

'Saw

    'Saw, I think he means the 'I hate Soccer' page, in the back of last
    weeks SI.

    Saw,
    
    There's always a one-page article at the end of the magazine.  This
    one was something like "No Soccer for Me" and urged soccer-haters
    of the world to unite.  The thing about it is, the guy hits on all
    the reasons why folks have said in here that they hate soccer or
    find it boring.  He makes some damn good points.
    
    JD

    Again, Saw,
    
    One point he makes concerns the 'soccer explosion' in the USA. 
    He says it's been going on for 20 years, but what ever has happened
    to the big bang everyone predicted?  He says soccer is basically
    a sport played by white surburban yuppie kids, who  parents view
    it as a way to get junior away from the nintendo for a few hours.
    He says, correctly, that you haven't seen soccer 'explode' on the
    inner city youth, have you....
    
    He also says at soccer is popular in the 3rd world because all you
    need is a ball and some open space.  It's cheap.  It makes sense.
    
    JD

    	Yeah, and they guy also says that soccer is a yuppie sport in
    the US, so 'Saw you cain't hide your true stripes anymore.
    
    				/Don

    The guy also asks all those suburban Moms toting their kids to games if
    they really (if they were honest) wouldn't rather be doing almost
    anything else, if only little junior weren't playing.
    
    As one of those suburban Moms - I got the short answer for him.
    
    **NO**
    
    The longer answer:
    
    I've spent the last 11 years standing on the sidelines, watching my kid
    play, in fair weather and foul.  It's been a real education.  As with
    any sport and team, sometimes it's been great and sometimes it's been
    awful, and mostly it's been something in-between.  His team is the
    first (but won't be the last) in our area that has started with kids 
    as young as 6.  So where's this 20 years stuff come from, anyhow?
    
    The years when I can legitimately follow his team are almost done - I
    figure I've got about 5 months left.  I'm in search of a new team, and
    I've been exploring the new professional league as a possible
    alternative.  The play isn't as good as what I watched this past
    weekend.  (Trip report to be posted later - I'm feeling a little
    sentimental today.)  But it's better than nothing at all, and after
    this long, I'm not willing to give up on my favorite spectator sport.
    
    A&W

    JD, if you repeat it some 100 more times, i gradually might get your
    point about soccer eventually. Keep up the good work ...8:)
    
    R.

    Rainer,
    
    I was merely supplying Saw with the location of an article in Sports
    Illustrated concerning soccer, and I supplies some parts of the
    article.  Chill out.
    
    Jd

Oh yes.  I remember that article.  That was the one where the picture
of the author was just a head shot.  No doubt because the author
was probably engaged in fondling himself as the picture was being taken,
some perverted form of self-abuse that resulted in him needing those
glasses he was wearing.

Yes, I remember it well now.


But seriously, folks, bottom line it comes down to whether or not you
like it.  There are those of you out there who are very knowledgeable
about basketball.  For the most part, I find that game pretty boring.
I'd just as soon tune in during the last two minutes (which take
twenty in real time), as see it, as I would watch the entire game.

What it comes down to is different people like different things.
The majority of the people in this land are soccer ignorant (or else
why would the soccer haters be lobbying as strongly as the pro-soccer
faction?  Surely they're not engaged in the masturbatory practice
of preaching to the choir!)

So, I let the nay-sayers have their say.  Hell, they probably thing
Rolling Rock is real beer....

8^)
'Saw

    I don't know sh*t about soccer, and I've never played it competitively.
    Many of my friends played soccer, and it is a really demanding sport.
    Besides the coordination and motor skills required to just be
    operational on the field, those guys are in great shape(I've heard that
    the average defensemen has to run 6+ miles per game) Soccer emphasizes
    both endurance and quickness.  I'd much sooner call baseball a sissy sport
    than soccer.  I know this ribbing is in good fun, but I'd like to see
    the writers who are critical of sports like soccer to get their lard
    *sses out on the field with these athletes and then see what they say
    after they make complete fools of themselves
    
    Tom (the sissy crew yuppy white suburban rich kid)
    
    P.S.  I love these critics lame generalizations.  

    Anytime, anywhere I'll go out and play soccer with anyone - but
    that wouldn't prove a rats ass about anything.  As you said, the
    ribbing is in good fun.  Especially the sissy stuff.  Most of the
    dislike has come from the way the game is played - and it's been
    rehashed time and again (I won't repeat it, it gets Rainer mad...)
    
    I hate to burst all of yer bubbles, but face, any athlete that competes
    in a sport at a college or above level is in damn good shape, whether
    it be football, hoop, soccer, crew, track or volleyball.
    
    What does it prove to say "Yeah, I'd like to see so and so do it
    for a whole game."  Well, to make it fair, so and so should be given
    the chance to practice as much as the regular player. 
    
    What sport doesn't require coordination and motor skills?  Endurance
    and quickness are intregal parts of most sports (and caint be taught).
    
    JD

    >What sport doesn't require coordination and motor skills?
    
    Pie eating!

   
>    I hate to burst all of yer bubbles, but face, any athlete that competes
>    in a sport at a college or above level is in damn good shape, whether
>    it be football, hoop, soccer, crew, track or volleyball.


Jd,

 I noticed you left baseball off of that list. :-)    ~/~
 Only in baseball can a Sid Fernandez or a Kent Hrbek continue to excell at
the professional level being in the "shape" they are in....

>     What sport doesn't require coordination and motor skills?  Endurance
>    and quickness are intregal parts of most sports (and caint be taught).
  

btw- I strongly disagree that endurance can't be taught. Endurance is a result
	of training. If you had anybody on a strict training schedule they 
	could improve their endurance. While I agree that quickness can't
	bring an athelete from revenge of the nerds to pro-class it can be
	improved wtih exercise and the teaching of correct technique.


Metz

    Metz,
    
    You're right in that endurance can be taught by training - but I
    also think endurance is a lot mental - and the preparation caint
    be taught - you have to WANT to endure.  call it heart, call it
    guts, but you can train and train and train, but you can still throw
    the towell in if you aren't mentally tough enough to go the whole
    route.
    
    JD

I agree with that JD. I'm sure much of what seperates the best long Distance
runners from the pack is mental endurance. Probably the same with the Tour de
France guys...

Metz


btw- got the rental stuff yesterday...I owe ya a few brewskies....

    While working kind of watched yesterday an internal german soccer
    tournament game (like a pre-season game). How was it decided?
    OF COURSE, BY PENALTY KICKS (BTW: Bayern Muenchen (Munich) with a lot
    of 'World-Champions on the team, lost).
    
    R.