Conference 7.286::sports_90

�    Any other strange things happen or unusual calls made?


Elvis Presley was over to my house for dinner last week, with
Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein and Jimi Hendrix.  While they
were there we called Jim Morrison...

Phoe Shit Shlep,
'Saw
     

On a serious note, probably the biggest problems we ever had
were with interpretation of the interference rules in the vicinity
of home plate.

If the catcher doesn't have the ball and the guy slides, if the
catcher has the ball and the guy barrels into him, etc etc etc...

I can't cite specific instances anymore, but at the time they were
always aggravating calls...

'Saw

    Yeah, here's one.  We were playing in a tourny a few weeks back.  I was
    on first when the batter hit into a double play.  I ran as fast as I
    could to second and pretty much ran into the second baseman as he was
    making his throw.  Not hard enough to knock him down or anything.  We
    just banged into each other.
    
    The DP was successful.  Their right fielder said that I was supposed to
    slide and I'd have been out anyway since I didn't.  Well, I NEVER slide
    when I'm wearing shorts.  This North Carolina red dirt pains something
    terrible when it gets in your strawberry.
    
    So what's the rule?  Did I HAVE to slide?  I didn't bother asking the
    ump since the play was successful.  If I don't have to slide, what are
    the resposibilities of the baserunner and the person covering the bag?
    
    	--dan'l

First off, dan'l, never listen to a right fielder....if they knew
anything, or were any good, or weren't taking steroids they
wouldn't be playing right field....(NO, NO, NO, I'm JUST kidding!!!!)

But seriously, I don't think you have to slide, but I think it's
the umps call in that situation on whether or not to call interference.
Going in high as opposed to sliding could be connoted as an
attempt to interfere with the second baseman/shortstop...  

FWIW,
'Saw

PS, I hate it when Daryll gets into all the red clay too!

    The worst umpiring I ever saw.  This one's so bad it still burns me up
    two years later.  Maybe because the same obnoxious arrogant
    inconsistent and all-around BAD umpire is still umping my games.
    
    We are the team in the field.  No out, men on 1st and 2nd.  Batter hits
    a Texas Leaguer to shallow left center.  OF charges in, gets his glove
    on the ball but tips it forward and doesn't catch it.  Amazingly, SS
    who rushed out catches the ball off the tip.  Everyone sees it that way
    except the ump, who rules the ball landed fairly.
    
    Problem is, the runners saw the SS catch the ball too.  Being wise
    runners, they hold at 1st and 2nd.  Being a wise 3B, I call for the SS
    to stop arguing with the ump and throw me the ball.  I tag 3rd, and
    throw to second for the other force in what should be a double play. 
    The runner realize what's up and walk off the field.
    
    The ump, not content to already have totally screwed up the play,
    confers with the home plate ump.  They rule the bases should be loaded,
    no outs.  Besides cursing the umps, their lives, families, friends and
    acquaintances, we protest the game based on the players being forced
    out according to whatever rule defines a force out.  The league covers
    the umps butts by saying the only protest they would have upheld was if
    we had protested the runners "leaving the playing field" after they had
    thought they were out.
    
    Every time I see this particular ump, I think about violent crimes.
    
    Dan
    

      THere is no ASA rule that says you have to slide, but you may not 
    interfere with the throw to first.  You can't "take out the second
    baseman" so to speak unless it is  a byproduct of going for the bag.
    If you remain on your feet and deliberately hit the fielder hard to
    break up the double play, you are out, the batter-baserunner is out
    and you may be ejected. A play at the plate is dependent on whether
    or not the catcher has the ball. You can't bowl him over if he has
    the ball and ready to make the tag, but he can't block the plate if
    he does not have the ball. Bang-bang plays where the ball and the 
    player arrive at about the same time is up to the umpire's judgment
    but most will give the edge to the runner, unless there is a flagrant
    attempt to hit the catcher and dislodge the ball.
      For the double-play scenario at second, if you remain on your feet
    and take a throw in the teeth, you will probably be spitting out
    Chicklets on the field and not likely to go in standing the next time.
    You still might be called for interference if the ump thinks you were
    doing it to break up the DP, and the batter-baserunner would be out
    also.
    
    Paul
    

    Dan,
    
    The ump wasn't SOS was it?
    
    JD

 Hhahahahahaaa Thanks for the memories Dan.......

 naturally I was on the other team. :^)

 Dan's assesement of the situation is correct but hey who are we to correct
 the umps........

 shall I tell them about the two subsequent plays after that Dan? 

 :^)

mike

    re-5
    
      If as you described it, the umpire (home plate umps call usually,
    the base ump watches the runners) called the ball a "Trap" or a fair
    ball, the runners should have been in a force play situation and
    your DP should be good, any runners who left the field and went to the
    dugout should be declared out. Under no circumstances should what you
    described allow the bases to be loaded. In my opinion, your protest
    should have stood up. It sounds like the ump was awarding first base
    to the hitter and calling the ball dead, nothing in the rules to let
    him do that.
    
    Paul
    

Nope nothing in the rule book but with 7 guys from Dan's team ready to lynch
the umps and us just sitting there quiet as can be who do you think the umps
were going to get a hard M.A. for and then give the call too? ;^)

mike

    re: .-1  Of course the protest should have been allowed!  But the
    umpire-in-chief had to cover their ass and get it disallowed by the
    league.
    
    re: Mike.  I forgot you were on the other team.  All I remember was
    that we lost that game, and we had *very* few losses that year.
    
    re: JD.  SOS is an arrogant SOB of an ump, but I don't think even he's
    capable of making a call this bad.    Wasn't him.
    
    Dan

Here's one of the worst calls I've ever seen. It happened about a 
week ago. 

Men on 1st and 2nd, batter hits a one hop DP ball to our 3b. 3B 
promptly fires the ball over the 2B head into RF and out of play. 
Ump scores the guy who was on 2nd, SCORES the runner from 1st and 
puts the hitter on 3rd!

You figure it out. I couldn't sleep for 2 hours that night 
because I was so pissed.

Being a league officer, I did what I could,

Called the NH Ump-in-chief and told them to never send these two 
bozos to our league again. No problems since :-)

daryll

    Daryll, did the ball go out of play (beyond the RF line, and past
    the out-of-play line) ?
    
    If so, then he probably figured the man on 1st was safe (E5), was
    heading to second because of the error, and since the ball rolled
    (???) out of play, everybody concerned gets an extra base.    
    
    Doc

      The bases awarded should be from the time of the throw. If you say
    the 3rd baseman threw the ball into right field immediately and the
    ball went out of bounds (I can't picture it, but I'll go by your
    account of what happened) the runner at second should score and you
    should end up with runners at 2nd and 3rd. Now if the right fielder
    touched it and it went out of bounds, that's a different story.
    
    Paul
    

Yeah, the 3b threw to the 1b side of 2nd and the ball went out of 
play. These bozos didn't know that it was 2 bases from the time 
of release, not when it goes out of bounds. I even asked if the 
runner would have been out at 2nd with a good throw and they said 
yes. Then I asked him if the throw went to 1st would the runner 
have been out, they said yes. When I asked why the hitter and the 
runner going into 2nd got 3 bases, they basically told me to shut 
up and play ball. I muttered looked at my 2b and muttered that 
these guys had spent the day at the VFW. 3 innings later, the 1b 
ump told me if I mentioned the VFW one more time I was gone.

Ha! They're gone now.

I never get into it with the umps because you never gain anything 
and it'll probably cost you later, but this time I couldn't help 
it. These guys were horrible.

Later in the game, one of our guys lined one down the LF line, 
the LF came running over and put a glove on it knocking it out of 
play and they put the hitter on 3rd! After the inning I asked 
them for an interpretation of the call. He said that he gave him 
3rd because the LF didn't carry the ball out of play 
intentionally.... You figure it out.

These are USSSA umps BTW.

daryll

     They sound in need of a refresher course, but remember you don't have
    to know ALL the rules to pass the test, just a passing grade. What does
    USSSA stand for? I thought the main governing body of softball in the
    U.S. was ASAA (Amateur Softball Association of America) commonly
    referred to as ASA and I never heard of the other.
    
    Paul
    

         
    
        United States Slo-pitch Softball Association.
    
    
    			- tfb -

Paul,

Aside from ASA, there are at least 2 other softball associations.
I can't recall the 3rd one, but it's really obscure.

USSSA = United States Slowpitch Softball Association

USSSA is smaller than ASA and differs in 2 major area. First, 
pitching is 3-10 ft arc versus the ASA 6-12 ft. Second, you get 2 
fouls on the 3rd strike instead of 1.

It's a real hitters game since almost everything comes in about 
belt high.

I prefer ASA, but our league voted to go USSSA this year. I think 
some guys are having second thoughts now.

daryll

    Paul,
    
    	Here's one for you:  men on 1st and 3rd, 1 out.  Bottom of
    	the 7th, score tied (the inning and score don't really
    	matter).  Hitter hits a fly ball to left.  Runner at 3rd
    	tags up, runner at 1st starts jogging to second (no tag up).
    	The LF catches the ball and throws the ball in to the pitcher.
    	The pitcher throws the ball to 1st to double up the runner
    	who didn't tag.  Does the run count if the guy on 3rd makes
    	it home before the other runner is doubled up?
    
    ClayBroon

IMHO, no run. If had tagged up and was out after the other runner 
scored, then the run would count. Otherwise it's a forceout.

How'd I do?

daryll

Here's one for you. It doesn't have anything to do with umps, but 
it'll test your softball knowledge.

This is slow-pitch, I don't know if it's the same for modified or 
fast.

Runner on 2nd, less than 2 outs. Batter hits a flyball to right. 
Runner tags and is safe at 3rd. Does the hitter get a sacrifice?
Why or why not?

daryll

    re:20
    
      The run does count, the play back to first is not a force play,
    it is considered a time play and as long as the runner from third
    scores before the runner at first is declared out, the run counts.
    It is handled as an appeal play. Rule 5 sect. 6 play 2 description.
    
    Paul
    

    No sacrifice is scored for a fly ball unless a runner scores as a 
    result of it or if a fielder makes an error on a fly ball but the
    runner would have scored if the catch had been made. The only way
    I know of to get a sacrifice where a runner doesn't score is to
    lay down a bunt (illegal in slow pitch) to move a runner along.
    So you could score an error on the fielder in the first case and
    still give the batter a sacrifice, no time at bat.
    
    Paul
    

    That is the way it was ruled Paul........after about 15 minutes
    of deliberation!  I was like darryl in thinking it was a force-
    out.  In fact, one of the umps thought that too.  Quite the
    broohaha broke out over that play.........
    
    ClayBroon

	Are there any rules regarding baserunners after they cross home plate?
If a runner crosses homeplate and then interfers with the catcher trying to
field a ball that was overthrown is there an interfernece call that can be made?

Mc

      If a runner scores and then interferes with the catcher making a play
    the runner closest to home plate would be out. Rule 8 sec 9R
    Any other base runners would have to return to the last base touched.
    
    Paul
    

    Last:
     Make that section 8R.
     
    
    Paul
    

    Re Dan'l not sliding.
    	I play SS and I dream of baserunners like you. See, when I let one
    of my patented side-arm risers go, they seem to fly directly at the
    baserunners fore-haid. So you'd either be seeing stars, or sliding
    on the dreaded NC red-clay. Of course if I knew it was you, I might
    throw it a little softer :-).
    					Rich
    

    RE: .31
    
    Ouch.  Better wear my goalie mask when you're covering the bag, Rich. 
    Or else have Ian Astberry as my pinch runner.
    
    	--dan'l

    re .31
    
    You too ? Heh heh heh .... yeah, I find throwing sidearm to be 1)
    accurate, and 2) a great prevenative measure against aggressive
    baserunners ....

      Situation: home team leading by one in the top of the 7th. Two outs,
    2 strikes on the batter. 
    
       The next pitch is swung on and fouled back to the catcher, it hits
    the catchers chest protector and bounces forward, he catches the ball
    before it hits the ground. Is this a caught foul tip on a third strike
    and is the game over?
    
    Paul
    

    Pual, it would be in the two softball leagues I've played in.  Any foul
    ball on the third strike is an out.

    Paul,
    
    	It depends on if you're playing ASA or USSSA rules.  In ASA, 
    	if you have two strikes on you, the next ball swung at has 
    	to land fair or you're out.  If it's USSSA, you can still
    	foul one off, with two strikes on you, but the one after
    	that must be fair.
    
    	Now, if you were playing USSSA, the batter had two strikes
    	on him, and he fouls it back at your catcher as you describe,
    	he would not be out unless the ball went higher than the
    	batter's head.  Any foul ball below the batter's head is
    	considered a foul tip I believe.
    
    Claybone

    	.36 applies to slow pitch.  You mentioned a catcher's
    	chest protector which causes me to believe you were
    	playing fast pitch.  I don't know doodly squat about
    	fast pitch rules.  I would think you could foul off as
    	many as you want ala baseball.
    
    Shlep us,
    
    Claybone

    
    re .34....
    
    Is a trick question?   
    
    Are you saying the home team is batting in the TOP of the 7'th?
    
    If not......
    
    
    If the batter had 2 strikes on him, he should be out no matter what
    league you are in ......the foul tip was caught before it hit the
    ground.
    
    Lou

    re. 38 - WRONG. Off the chest protector and into the glove is a foul
    ball in modified and fast pitch.  In slow pitch a foul ball on the
    third strike and your out!
    
    Jim O.

    Jim O.,
    
    	re. slow pitch and 3rd strike:  Not in USSSA rules......
    
    Claybone

      Sorry if there was confusion, I certainly meant in the context of
    Fast or modified fast rules. 
    
    .39 is right, it is a foul ball, it has to hit the catcher's mitt,
    first to be considered a foul tip and an out.
    
    Paul
    

    Although this really isn't softball related it looked like a good place
    to ask. I put this in the Baseball note too.
    
    
    Does anybody have a rule book that can state what constitutes a save
    for a pitcher? There is a discussion going on in the Nintendo file
    about a game and about how or when it gives a save. The game is called
    Baseball Stars. I always thought the pitcher had to pitch to the tying
    run, for example he had to pitch to 3 batters with a 3 run lead
    (assuming nobody on base already) in order to get a save. Does anybody
    know the exact ruling?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Steve
     

    Hey Speed_Muffin,
    
    What are you doin in the sports note with a freakin Nintendo question?
    Or are you really asking the question so you'll know when to relieve
    Maj down at Southwest Tourny?
    
    JoJ

    
    Hey Piano_Muff,
    
    Just trying to get clarification on a rule.. I can't make it to the SW
    this year since I have to go to a wedding in Mich. so you will have to
    get somebody else to help you run the bases this year..haha...Too bad
    I'll miss ya when you get to town it should be a fun time.. You guys
    should kick some butt evben without me there..haha..
    
    
    Steve
    

    
    
    Seem to remember something like the pitcher had to pitch 3 innings....
    or while pitching, the tying runner either had to be the on deck
    batter....or the next to the on deck batter.
    
    
    Lou

    
    
    
    
    A fine gentleman comes through.. Thanks John..
    
    Rule 10.20 Credit a pitcher with a save when he meets all three
    of the following conditions:
             1. He is the finishing pitcher in a game won by his club;
    and 
             2. He is not the winning pitcher; and
             3. He qualifies under one of the following conditions:
                a. He enters the game with a lead of no more than three
                   runs and pitches for at least one inning; or
                b. he enters the game, regardless of the count, with
                   the potential tieing run either on base, or at bat,
                   or on deck (that is, the potential tieing run is
                   either already on base or is one of the first two 
                   batsmen he faces); or
                c. He pitches effectively for at least three innings.
             No more than one save may be credited in each game.