Conference 7.286::sports_90

    	For the record....the Donks aren't "trying" to match the
    	Vikes.  They will be trying to win.
    
    amf,
    
    Claybone

    They will win.....  There, I said it !!
    
    Big Game

	Trivia:

	Dan "That was no Collie, that was my wife" Reeves will have been to
EXACTLY 1/3 of ALL the Superbowls ever played, as either a player or a coach.

Mike JN

    re .0 and .2
    
    	Sorry 'bout that!  I guess I need to turn up the baud rate
    	on my brain so that it matches the baud rate of my eyes!
    	
    
    Claybone_who's_had_a_long_day

    This game will get the ponys in the record book, tied for 4 losses
    with the vikings. The only way Denver will win is if the 9ers show
    up at the wrong site.I think Denver will lose by more than thay
    did in any of the other bowls they played in.

>         In looking over the bowls of the past,the common denominator
>    seems to be quarterbacking. There are very few examples of Super
>    Bowl teams that had bad quarterbacking.
    
     The only really bad starting quarterback in a Super Bowl was the
     Dolphins David Woodley (is that right?) against the Redskins in 1982.
     There were a few lesser lights at quarterback who had had decent years
     (Joe Kapp, Craig Morton, Tony Eason), and a few quarterbacks who always
     had a lot of potential, but only a few really great games to prove it
     (Vince Ferragamo, Doug Williams).  Mostly, however, Super Bowl teams have
     had quarterbacks in the top 3-5 QBs in their conference.

    
    
    If the Broncos score 24 or more points on the 9 er's 
    they'll WIN!!!
    
    
    
    Drewski
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    P.S. You Heard It First Sports Fans!!!
    
    

    The niners will score at least 35.
    There is no way the Broncos will score 24.
    They will be lucky to score at all.
    You heard it here first.
    
                              Steve J.
    Niners 45
    Broncos 0

    don't you mean SUPERBORE?   one year in the not to near future there
    may be a superbowl with two teams so evenly matched that the odds
    makers will consider it a pick em! and on top of that it will turn
    out to be exactly that way with the game being decided within the
    last two minutes or even better OT - then I wake up
    
    or how about this...
    
    an AFC team actually being favored to win by more than a touchdown...
    kind of like a republican winning something in massachusetts
    
    
    
    
    kind of like a republican winning in MASS!
    

    	THis game is kinda like pitting the college 1-A champion
    against the 1-AA champion. They both are good teams, but Denver
    is just a BIG notch below the 49ers. It shouldn't be close,
    I'm going with 38-13 SanFran.

    re:.10
       You must have missed last years game. 
                                        Denny

    We can't thank the Donks enough for tying the Vikes record of four
    Super Bowl losses.  See, anybody can do it!  This could be the biggest
    blowout yet.  Thank goodness there's a good college BB game on that
    day, I would waste my time with this one.
    
    
    Spud

    i hate to say it but it does look like the 9ers will win thier 4th
    SB......though i will be pulling for the Donks.....i just hope Humphrey
    plays else the donks won't stand a chance.......
    
    as for them lossing 4 SB's...i'd rather watch "my" team loss the
    SB than watch 2 other teams play while "my" team sits home...
    
    a Skins fan
    Steve

    Hey Niskala,
    
    	There is actually a town in Europe, Norway I think, that has
    	the name Hell.  It freezes there every year..........:^)
    
    	Who do you guys think you're kidding?  You'll be watching
    	the S.B. and you know it.
    
    amf,
    
    Claybone

    Re: .15
    
    I'm certainly not trying to kid anyone.  The only Super Bowls I
    watched during the '80's were the Giants and Bears blowouts.
    
    
    Spud
    

    Spud,
    
    	You missed a great game last year......;^)
    
    Claybone

    I heard this on the radio yesterday. Immediately upon the conclusion
    of the SF game on Sunday the spread went up in Las Vegas as the
    49ers by 10.5. About a minute later a guy went up to the window
    and put 100,000 on the 49ers. I guess he doesn't think that point
    spread will last long.
    
    I think this will be a closer game than people think. But 10.5 does
    look cheap. The Niners should prevail 34-20. San Francisco is an
    incredible 15-3 against the spread this year and has covered 10
    of the last 11 weeks.
    
    RE: Quarterbacks
    
    For the record here are the winning quarterbacks in order of wins:
    
    Bradshaw 4
    Montana 3
    Plunkett,Starr,Griese,Staubach 2
    Williams,Simms,McMahon,Unitas,Theisman,Stabler,Namath,Dawson 1
    
    
    

The Broncos will win outright: 

                       Denver Broncos                27
                       San Francisco Fruity-Niners   23

If... by some wild stretch of the imagination, S.F. should luck out and win
this one, it will indubitabobbly be as a result of a series of incredibly bad
calls by the Refs, favoring S.F. (the Refs have always had it in for Denver).

                                  `NUFF SAID

                                    Mike JN

    
    The 49er's should win big ..... at least as big as they WANT to
    win.  They also deserve to go down as the next greatest dynasty
    after the Steelers ......  while the Steelers had a terrific
    all around team, they're strength was in the D ..... the 9er's
    have a terrific all around team, but with greater strength in
    the O.
    
    Maybe instead of having the 1-AA champs play the 49er's, there
    should be a game between the Steeler team of 1978 (?) and SF...
    
    
    It would be more entertaining ....... and the score would be closer
    too !!
    
    
    Greg

       Hey, even the Pats have 'Super Bowl rings' like Most of Reeves'.
                                        Denny

    Niners  31
    Donk's  17
    
    Montana, Rice, and the "Husker backfield" will get back to back...
    
    ...unless half the 49ers come down with the flu, or get stuck in
    traffic in the wrong city !!!
    
    Marty

    your right......last years game was an exciting game... for those
    who forgot here it is
    
                       San Fran   3   0   3   14    20
     
                       Cinn.      0   3  10    3    16
    
       Montana was   23-36-357  0 int  2 TD
       Esiason was   11-25-144  1 int  0 TD
    
       Rice was MVP  
    
                    I have a great stats book in front of me that displays
     the road to the Superbowl.....I guess it was all the alchohol that
    was consumed during the superbowl party last year that has altered
    my memory......
    
    let me know if anyone needs any stats!  this book is great!
    
    dave g
    
      

    If the Rams only scored 3 points, how does anyone think Denver will
    score at all.
    
                                 Steve J.

    Everett is a girly mon !!
    
    Big Game

    there is only one team that the 9ers haven't,thats have not,beaten
    since 1980 and the winner is .......Denver.....since 1980,i believe
    its stands denver 3 s.f. 0......
    
    T

    I said this before, but Joe Gibbs was 0-2 against Denver before
    SB XXII. Now he is 1-3. That 1 win just happen to come when the
    game really counted.
    
                              Steve J.

       Seifert has never lost to the broncos since becoming head coach.
    We can come up with all sorts of meaningless stats.
    
                               Steve J.

    How many Broncos does it take to change a tire?
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    one, unless it is a blow out, then the whole team shows up.
    
                               Steve J.

    Humphey will be near 100% if not totally recovered. You can bank
    on that.  The Broncos can do no wrong in this one. Show up.
    Be loose.  Have fun.  It's the 9'ers game to win or loose. 
    They will probably have more difficulty than they think.  
    
    BoB

If the nation could take all the energy expended on the pre-Super
Bowl hype, and put it in a bomb, we would own the world.

    I kind of doubt that the Niners will take Denver lightly, ie. may not
    be as easy as they think.  The last time they did that, they didn't get
    into the ('87) Super Bowl (and they would've won that too!).  Walsh has
    brought that up a few times in recent games, and I'm sure it's on all
    of the Niners' minds........
    
    Hawk
    
    P.S.  'Saw, it's Dock, not Doc.  He's a changed man.........  :-)
                        ^

�    P.S.  'Saw, it's Dock, not Doc.  He's a changed man.........  :-)
                        ^

Sorry, Hawk.  I'm gonna need a program to keep track of all these
changes.

'Saw

PS  (And the check should be in the mail soon....)

    Bowlen.....   What a F%^&^&%^&*(&^ jerk...
    
    
    Big Game

>    They also deserve to go down as the next greatest dynasty
>    after the Steelers .....
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

who might be after the 60s Packers.  Do people only focus on the
football teams of the Super Bowl era ???  Didn't the Packers win
5 of 6 (or 7) NFL championships, including the 1st 2 Super Bowls,
during the 1960s ?  I believe there are more 60s Packers in the
Hall of Fame than players from any other team in history.


Joe

    How can Humphrey possibly be 100% when he's got two cracked ribs? 
    One good hit from Lott and he's outta the game.
    
    					Steve

    
    Steven, small nit Bowlan has always been a jerk.....
    
    mike

       That's easy, they play in a cupcake division.
                                               Denny

    Re:-.1
    
     You're an A$$  !!
    
    ;^)
    
    Big Game

       Sorry Jack, somebady had to say it!
                                         Denny  ;^)

    Here's a stat to chew on.  Joe Montana is 3-0 in Superbowls...
    
    
    Re. Bowlen - hmmm, where's the Donk fan spewing all the stuff about
    the classlessness of Art Modell?  Hmmmm.......
    
    Maybe the Broncos will score first, like they did vs. the Jints
    and the Skins, so that the Bronco faithful can have that warm and
    fuzzy feeling....
    
    JD

    Steve,
    	
    	Bowlen said something like Rice was a Chinaman who's feet
    	don't touch the ground.  I still haven't figured out what
    	it means!  I don't think he was being deragatory to Rice
    	because he was describing how great the niner organization
    	was when he used that analogy for Rice.  It may be a
    	deragatory remark about Chinamen though.  I don't know what
    	the analogy means.  The comments I read from Bowlen were
    	something to the effect that he would be surprised if they
    	lost and that he expects them to win.  I don't know if
    	this classifies him as a jerk.   What really classifies him
    	as a jerk are those girly-mon full length fur coats he wears!
    
    	Humphrey has cracked ribs.  In other words, not as bad as a
    	fracture because the rib is not broken all the way through.
    	They will hold him out of contact drills til next Wednesday.
    	I doubt that his ribs will be 100% but his legs will be....:^)
    
    amf,
    
    Claybone

>    Maybe the Broncos will score first, like they did vs. the Jints
>    and the Skins, so that the Bronco faithful can have that warm and
>    fuzzy feeling....
    
Is that kind of like pissin' in your pants?

>    	Bowlen said something like Rice was a Chinaman who's feet
>   	don't touch the ground.  I still haven't figured out what
>    	it means!  I don't think he was being deragatory to Rice
>    	because he was describing how great the niner organization
>    	was when he used that analogy for Rice.  It may be a
>    	deragatory remark about Chinamen though.  I don't know what
>    	the analogy means.  The comments I read from Bowlen were

	What Bowlen said was an affront to Chinese Americans, who
view the use of the word Chinamen is akin to the use of another
word, which I don't want to use, in reference to Black Americans.
	Also, the connotation of Rice's name being used as a reference
to what is the main food staple of China, was unfortunate, ill-advised,
and reeks of a lack of respect for both Rice and Chinese Americans.

	JMHO,

	Jim M

We all know that the players are subjected to 2 weeks of stupid questions.  So
a local TV station (36 in San Jose) beat them all to the punch and had a
reporter ask some of the players the dumbest questions he could think of.  I
was laughing my butt off when I saw it.  Some of the questions were:

        Have you had your tonsils out?
        If it's true you are what you eat, then what are you?
        When you go to the supermarket do you prefer paper or plastic?

and with one of the linemen (Wallace I think)
        Q : I know you play golf.  On your back swing do you inhale or exhale?
        A : (makes funny faces while he picturing himself swinging) Inhale.
        Q : Was the a dumb question?
        A : No, not really.  I've been asked dumber.
        Q : (in a disbelieving voice) Really, like what?
        A : People come up to me and ask "Do you know Joe Montana?  No never
            really met him.  He comes in and practices all by himself.  Get 
            to see him sometimes on game day..."

    	Mr. Wawwace if you couwd be a twee, what kind of twee wouwd
    you be?

	The report I saw in the paper said that Bowlen was cracking jokes,
acting like the Broncos were a lock, and pretending like he didn't know for
sure who was on the 49ers. He said something to the effect of:
       "	.... and that Chinese guy..."

The reporters said `What Chinese guy?"

Bowlen replied " You know. What's his name. Rice. "

This may not be the funniest line you've ever heard, but it's not a bad try at
a touch of humor. Anybody who gets bent out of shape over that as `Offensive'
to ANYONE is probably going to spend the rest of their life looking like a
pretzel. If the guy's name was Jerry Potato, and Bowlen had said:
        "... and that Irish guy..." Nobody would have given it a second
thought; and would have thought it was funny. Super sensitive creeps ought to
get a life, and the cockamamie media ought to stop trying to blow everything
out of proportion.

Mike JN

    Re:.-1
    
    Believe me to some of us the statement is not as funny as you think. 
    Beleive me to some of us it is immensely offensive.
    
    Certainly not "not a bad try at a touch of humor."  It is not humorous
    considering the term he used which is derogatory, and it has nothing to
    do with Rice or rice or diet habit.  According to what I have read and
    heard he did not say "that Chinese guy" but "Chinaman."  It is similar
    to us as the "n" word for blacks.
    
    It is not a matter of the media blowing things out of proportion.  It
    is a Chinese group that is complaining, not the media who simply (in
    this case) reports.
    
    Unless you are Chinese I don't think you know the issue and the hurt
    feelings here.
    
    Charles

�    Unless you are Chinese I don't think you know the issue and the hurt
�    feelings here.
    
Could it be then that Bowen is simply ignorant of this fact?

I'm not belittling any group, and I don't want to start a rat hole, but
quite frankly, how many of us know what is and what isn't offensive to
other groups?

So many times an offhand remark made out of ignorance gets blown out
of proportion.  His ignorance was less of an issue (in my book) than
his stupidity in making the remark during an interview...

It's great that we live in a land where activist groups (perhap wrong
term in this case) can speak their mind whenever they please, but
shouldn't they really save the effort for when there really is the
intent of malice?  Wouldn't that prevent reactions like Mike's (nothin'
personal Mike...) or mine  (For the record, I personally don't much
care).

Just playing devil's advocate...
Chainsaw

    For the record here are the losing quarterbacks in order of losses.
    
    Tarkenton 3
    Elway,STAUBACH,Morton 2
    Esiason,Eason,Marino,Theisman,Woodley,,Anderson
    Jaworski,Ferragamo,Kilmer,GRIESE,Kapp,Morrall,LaMonica,DAWSON 1
    
    Those in Caps have also won a Super Bowl
    
    Super Bowl trivia:
    
    Name the two colleges that have had three alumni start at quarterback
    in the Super Bowl:
    
    Who is the only player to play for three different Super Bowl teams?
    
    Who has scored points in the most different Super Bowls?
    
    

    RE: -1 Theisman should also have gotten credit for a win.

    
    Purdue and Alabama
    
    Marv Flemming
    
    if qb's count Bradshaw if not I'll guess Roy Gerella...
    
    mike

    Re:.-1
    
    Purdue was just 27 points shy of putting the 4th QB in school history
    into the Super Bowl :)
    
    Charles
    

    Re:.55 Chainsaw
    
    I believe Bowlen was stupid.  But he has to admit it.  
    
    Instead of calling him ignorant, I think he is, unfortunately like most
    of America, plainly insensitive.  He is not a 2-year-old child anymore. 
    I can understand a 2-year-old child to be ignorant, not a grown man.
    
    Charles

    
    Jim & Charles,
    
    I've gotta agree with Mike & Chainsaw.  It was a meager attempt
    at humor and in extremely poor taste.  However, I doubt that
    Bolan knew that that's an offensive word to call someone in 
    the Asian community.  I know that if I heard the word used in
    relation to someone of Asian descent, I wouldn't think anything
    of it because I wouldn't know there was anything that I should
    be thinking about it.
    
    I believe after Bolan made the initial statement, they asked
    him to explain what he meant....and he said, "That Chinese guy.
    What's his name?  Rice?"  So I think it was in relation to 
    rice being China's main staple...not a racial slur.
    
    Too bad these type of things have to interfere with such a 
    classy game like football.  ;^)
    
    						Jill

    Re:.-1
    Jill, I agree that Bowlen was in extreme poor taste, and he was off the
    mark.  I don't think he meant it, but he had to admit it.  
    
    When you said in your subject line, "unnecessary but not racial," we
    have an disagreement here.  Even if he does not mean it, it was a
    racial slur.  The very term he used was derogatory.  His justification
    with the diet habit of Chinese is just a poor humorless excuse.  He was
    being racial without his even knowing it!  This is the scariest part:
    America can be very racial without knowing it....not to say admit it.
    
    I have to say all these may be a little hard for white America to
    comprehend.
    
    It is unfortunate for such silliness to intrude into a Super Bowl game. 
    But we have more at stake here than a ball game.
    
    Like you said, a classy sport like football :) needs no classless and
    stupid act like Bowlen.
    
    Just my O.
    
    Charles

>>    Who is the only player to play for three different Super Bowl teams?
    
      Is it Preston Pearson? Colts, Steelers, Cowboys


Chuck

    
    I pretty much agree with Charles. I have heard the term before and
    assumed it not to be in the best of taste or appreciated by people
    of Chinese origin. Also, take into account the large oriental
    population in the San Francisco area, I get the feeling Bowlen knew
    what he was saying would be taken offensive. Maybe, maybe not. He was
    talking to the media. If he publicly apologizes, don't hold your breath
    considering some of the other things that guy has said, it will
    probably will be forgotten. Jimmy the Greek at least the excuse of
    being drunk, and he didn't use any racial slurs, yet was fired.
    
                                                   HOOT
    

    
    I don't know Charles....this is a toughy.  I think racism has 
    a lot to do with intent...thinking your ethnic background is
    better than someone elses.  I just think Bolan's comment was
    insensitive to the Asian community and that he should say
    an apology since he did offend people.  
    
    You're right too...there are much more important things than
    football...however, it is nice to have a part of life where you
    can run away from the issues of the nation/world/universe.
    
    							Jill

      Yawn!!!  Who cares about Bowlen and his big/stupid mouth?
    
      Re: Tons ago...A cupcake division huh??  I see the 9's play in a real
    tough one??  The Rams are the only other team in that division that is
    good,  plus its only a 4 team division,  the Broncos are a 5 team
    divison.  Granted its not like the NFC east where there are 3 good
    teams,  but heck it was the toughest 5 years ago.
    
      Anyway,  The 9'rs are goin' down in the sissy dome.
    
    		Tim

    So, Jill, if a little kid who "doesn't know any better" starts yelling
    racial slurs at a classmate, it's OK because he was ignorant of the
    true meaning.  Sorry, but I don't buy that.  As Charles said, the scary
    part is that people can and do use derogatory terms without knowing it. 
    They picked them up somewhere from someone who did know what they
    meant.  The intent is still there.
    
    Maybe its time for some Valuing Differences refresher videos.
    
    P.S.  Mike, I think you're wrong about the offense which would be taken
    by the Irish reference.

    I wonder what Rice thinks of the statement. Oh well. Local sports
    sriter Ralph Routen also known as Ralph Rotten had an interesting
    article today.  He published parts of sports editorials from around
    the nation.  Maybe one would give Denver a snowball's chance in hell.
    
    BoB

    re the quiz, and QB's
    
    Alabama had Starr, Namath, and Stabler
    
    Didn't Notre Dame have Montana, Theisman, and Lamonica???
    
    Who were the 3 from Purdue??  Griese....
    
    JD

    For Purdue, also Dawson, and who's that Anderson on the list of SB
    losers?  If it is Gary Anderson that Purdue has three.  Or else Purdue
    still only has two, waiting for Everett to be the third (or fourth?), 
    one day :)
    
    Charles

Re Cupcake division....

I'm not a fan of the NFC West, but I would hardly say that the only
other good team is the Rams.

Of all the teams that didn't make the playoffs this year, the Saints
were the ones who probably most deserved to be there.  The Saints
have been close, if not in the playoffs, for the last few years,
and have a management structure and knowledge that is going to
build a long-term good team.

I'd say (although NFC West fans would have to confirm) that the
three-way rivalry in that division is one of the toughest around.

Granted, as an NFC East fan, I've got to say I envy them getting
two freebies by playing the 5th place finishers ;^) [lotsa smilies!]

Chainsaw

    
    Didn't Woodley play for Purdue?
    
    Marv Flemming I believe played in superbowls for the Packers, Raiders
    and Dolphins......
    
    mike

    I think the Packers deserved to get into the playoffs more than the
    Saints.

    Super Bowl QBs (off the top of my head)
    
    Bart Starr, Alabama vs Len Dawson, Purdue
    Bart Starr, Alabama vs Daryle Lamonica, Notre Dame
    Joe Namath, Alabama vs John Unitas, Louisville and Earl Morrall,
    			   Michigan State
    Len Dawson, Purdue  vs Joe Kapp, California
    John Unitas, Louisville vs Craig Morton, California
    Roger Staubach, Navy vs Bob Griese, Purdue
    Bob Griese, Purdue vs Bill Kilmer, UCLA
    Bob Griese, Purdue vs Fran Tarkenton, Georgia
    Terry Bradshaw, Louisiana Tech vs Fran Tarkenton, Georgia
    Terry Bradshaw, Louisiana Tech vs Roger Staubach, Navy
    Ken Stabler, Alabama vs Fran Tarkenton, Georgia
    Roger Staubach, Navy vs Craig Morton, California
    Terry Bradshaw, Louisiana Tech vs Roger Staubach, Navy
    Terry Bradshaw, Louisiana Tech vs Vince Ferragamo, Calif/Nebr
    Jim Plunkett, Stanford vs Ron Jaworski, Youngstown State (?)
    Joe Montana, Notre Dame vs Ken Anderson, Augustana
    Joe Theismann, Notre Dame vs David Woodley, LSU
    Jim Plunkett, Stanford vs Joe Theismann, Notre Dame
    Joe Montana, Notre Dame vs Dan Marino, Pittsburgh
    Jim McMahon, Brigham Young vs Tony Eason, Illinois
    Phil Simms, Morehead State vs John Elway, Stanford
    Doug Williams, Grambling vs John Elway, Stanford
    Joe Montana, Notre Dame vs Boomer Esiason, Maryland
    Joe Montana, Notre Dame vs John Elway, Stanford
    
    John

        For the record here are the losing quarterbacks in order of losses.
    
    Tarkenton 3
    Elway,STAUBACH,Morton 2
    Esiason,Eason,Marino,Theisman,Woodley,,Anderson
    Jaworski,Ferragamo,Kilmer,GRIESE,Kapp,Morrall,LaMonica,DAWSON 1
    
RE: Super Bowl trivia:   
    
The answers are:    
    Name the two colleges that have had three alumni start at quarterback
    in the Super Bowl: California (Kapp,Ferragamo,Morton) 0-4 ! and
    Notre Dame (LaMonica,Montana,Theisman) 4-2
    
    Who is the only player to play for three different Super Bowl teams?
    Preston Pearson - Dallas,Baltimore,Pittsburgh
    
    Who has scored points in the most different Super Bowls? I am not
    positive on this one. Does anyone know if Fred Cox of the Vikings
    also scored in 4? I think he had an extra point blocked in 1975
    so that would leave 3.Sorry for posting questions that I'm not certain
    of the answer.
    
    A new one: Which college has had the most Super Bowl MVP's. Quick,where
    did Richard Dent go to school?
    Roy Gerela 1975,1976,1979,1980    
    

    Dave,
    
    But Bart Starr, Joe Namath, and Ken Stabler were all Alabama QB's,
    right?????
    
    They all started - and they are 4-0 in starts...
    
    JD

re Green Bay/New Orleans playoffs:

	Being a fan of Green Bay (after the Jints of course) I would
	concur.  I was merely stating what most of the sportscaster
	I heard say after NO was eliminated but while GB was still
	in it.

	I should have made that clear.

	Basic point was that the three teams in the four team division
	are highly competitive....

Chainsaw

PS  Gotta love them Alabama QBs!!!!!!!

    re: .75
    
    Fred Cox did have a PAT blocked in IX, and the final score was 16-6; so
    he didn't score in that game.

    What kills me is reading notes that say that the 49ers are a much
    better team than the Broncos "on paper", but that the Super Bowl is not
    being played "on paper", but on a football field.  No Sh*t!  And where
    were the season's games and the playoffs played for these 2 teams to
    get what's "on paper"?  You guessed it!  On da football field!  The
    49ers look great "on paper" cause they looked great on the field.  The
    Broncos look good "on paper" cause they played good on the field.
    
    The rest, will be history soon.  But, thanks for the laughs anyway! :-)
    
    Hawk

It has been reported in today's paper that Bowlen has apologized for his 
remarks.

Part of Bowlen's statement: "Some individuals have expressed concvern over 
comments which I made earlier this week.  Those comments, which I made on
talking with the press on Monday, never were intended to be any kind of 
insult or in any way offensive to any group or individual, especially not
to anyone of Chinese extraction.

"To anyone who feels offended by my remarks, I would like to say that I 
am embarrassed and offer my apologies.

"If anyone from Chinese for Affirmative Action would like to discuss this 
matter with me, I invite an appropriate representative to call me at the
Denver Broncos' office.

"My remarks were obviously made in jest and were an attempt to speak 
facetiously.  I never intended these comments to be taken in an offensive
manner."


Now that he apologized, I hope he would really learn from this.  I would
say this episode can be dropped.

Let's just wait for January 28 when his team will be embarrassed just like
he is :)

Charles

    Great teams on paper or otherwise, don't always play great
    football. Even poor teams seem to have that ability to play
    great ball on occasion. There dosn't seem to be any real
    logic or pattern. If this were a best of 3 or 7 like other sports
    employ, the most superior nearly always rises.  The Super Bowl
    is a one shot deal. Being the best is no real gurantee no matter
    how large the performance or paper gap may appear. We have all
    seen that.
    
    BoB   

$SET SUPERBOWL/NO_HYPE=ON

    To be honest, I can only think of 2 "real" upsets in the Super Bowl;
    the Jets over the Colts and the Chiefs over the Vikings.
    
    The Broncos are not as good as either the Jets or the Chiefs of
    those years and the 49ers are better than either the Colts or Vikings
    of those years.
    
    Rich
    

    
    I've been trying to stay out of this, but:
    
    49ers have absolutely no history of playing poorly in the Super
    Bowl, in fact, they seem to turn it up a notch (Montana especially
    when the other team's QB gets a lot of hype).  No one has to remind
    the Bronco fans how their team translates their position of paper
    to the Super Bowl field.  
    
    For those of you clinging to the fact that the Broncos have beaten
    the 49ers the last 3 times in the regular season (all close games),
    look at this:  Last year Chicago beat the 49ers (barely) in the
    regular season and the 49ers also squeaked by Minny in the regular
    season.  In the playoffs the 49ers beat the Bears by something like
    26-0 and the Vikes by 41-13 (something like that).  This year the
    9ers lost in a preseason overtime game to the Rams, lost by a point
    in regular season, and then barely beat them later on.  The Rams
    were then completely dismembered in the playoffs.  
    
    What this comes down to is that since the loss in 87 to the Vikes,
    this 49er team turns everything up several notches when the playoffs
    come around.  They've been getting better and better each week.  
    With the extra week's rest Montana only gets better, and the 49ers 
    coaching staff comes up with strategy twists that surprise the 
    other team (ask John Robinson how the 49ers outcoached him by using 
    a new defensive alignment that took his WRs out of the play).  
                             
    
    Bruce                                   

    I agree with Bruce.  I believe there has been a lot of grasping
    at straws by Bronco fans to find some hope their team could win.
    The 3 wins over the Niners by the Broncos in the eighties, asking
    about San Fran's record in domes and so forth.
    
    The only way I think the Broncos can win is if San Francisco plays
    horribly and Denver plays a perfect game.  They have to play the
    way the Redskins played against them in the 2nd quarter of Super
    Bowl XXII 2 years ago, and the Niners have to play like the Broncos
    did in that quarter.
    
    Sorry,
    
    John

    >(ask John Robinson how the 49ers outcoached him by using 
    >a new defensive alignment that took his WRs out of the play).  

Nice dig, Bruce.  Not exactly an intellectually honest moment in history,
but the dig was read.  The 49ers were able to double team both Ellard
and Flipper Anderson.  They'd usually stick an LB on Ellard, and that
amazingly worked.  What that did was take away everything Everett
relied on, and made him improvise.  He would have to find the back or
the tight end.  Everett wasn't prepared, and you can blame that
on a combination of coaching, inexperience, and just an excellent
49er defense, not necessarily in that order.  To place the blame
just on Robinson's shoulders is just more of the same crap you
were dishing out to him before.

Otherwise, the points in your note are well-taken.

Dan

For all you history buffs lets go back in my time machine.  Elway in
his first super bowl,  Elway avoids the rush and dodges L.T. and the
Giants defense, Broncos lead 10-9 at halftime.  The Giants come out
and sack Elway 5+ times and totally dominate the second half, and the
final outcome - A GIANT ROMP!!  Elway Superbowl II,  Broncos first
play from scrimmage, a touchdown!!  Second quarter, Skins and Williams
go on to score 28 pts.  Ok, here is my point.  I expect the same from
the Broncos this year, come out like gang busters, then once headed,
the broncos fold as usual.  You see as long as they have the lead they
will be OK!  But when the 49ers finally do take a 3 to 4 point lead,
its over!!!  Sorry Mr. Ed, you will end up just like Sir Francis, 
A great career, but no ring!!
    
Greg         
                
                    

    Steven, calm down now!  No reason to get upset.  Bruce and John H. are
    only "callin' 'em as they see 'em".  Personal opinions, no more no
    less.  I also have seen where some Bronco fans have "grasped" to
    justify them winning this thing.......
    
    Tell ya what.  I'll meet ya half way Super Bowl Sunday at some bar and
    we'll tip a few, ok?  As long as it ain't Cleveland!  :-)
    
    Hawk
    
    P.S.  Heard last night that Cleveland is where the Rock n' Roll Hall of
          Fame is being built.  Someone explain that one.  Maybe Elvis has
          finally settled down and is living in Cleveland forever?

    
    re .88
    
    Dan, the JR comment came, in part, from Robinson.  Actually what
    Turner was doing is bump either Ellard or Anderson at the line,
    waiting for Griffin to pick him up.  Robinson admitted after the
    game that they made no adjustments to that ploy, and they should
    have.  He went on to say that because of Turner's play early in
    the game, especially Turner's interception, they were afraid to
    go after his side of the field.  Robinson that was a mistake.  Several
    local columnists also commented how Robinson was outcoached in this
    game, by a rookie head coach.  Glad you noticed the dig, though.
    
    
    Bruce
    
    

>     Just don't understand it, these notes files. Maybe, since there
>    are at least two of ya's, you could point out just all the 
>    "grasping" that the Donk fans are doing. Since there's so much of it,
>    I'm sure you will have no problem.
    
>      I'm also sure you will have no problem finding this info in this
>    notes file.
    
    
>     Have fun!!
    
    
>        Steven
 
    Steven, are you implicating me?  I said nothing about the Bronco
    fans grasping at straws, but I did put in some information that
    refutes much of what some Bronco fans have been saying.
    
    Although, if yoyu want me to show you where some Bronco fans have
    grasped at straws, I'd be happy to oblige you, although you are
    capable of looking it up yourself.
    
    
    Bruce    
    

    I would agree with the fold gig also however, several times they had
    opportunities to fold with the lead this season.  Last sunday
    was an example.  The Browns jumped them with 2 quick scores and
    pulled within 3. Denver answered with a td and the wind came out 
    of their sails. Perhaps the best performance this season was the
    Bills game in Buffalo on monday night.  It was another game that
    everyone had the Broncos written off in.  Denver administered a 
    physical beating on the Bills and when they made a move to take
    the lead Denver pulled out again.  On that night, the Broncos 
    could have beaten anyone in the league.  They are not consistent yet
    that capability is still there.  No team has beaten Denver this year by
    more than 1 score.  
    
    BoB  

Bruce, it's valiant of Robinson to take the blame and I expect every head 
coach in football to do the same.  But it was obvious that it was Jim
Everett who deserves the lion's share of it.  He just wasn't thinking fast
enough on his feet.  Now if they had Joe Namath in there, the offense would
have been redesigned in the huddle...

You can indirectly blame Robinson that Everett wasn't prepared.  You can
more directly blame Zampese for not preparing him for the general situation.
But you've got to question Everett's skills and abilities after what I saw
on Sunday.  I wonder what the LA press is saying about Everett or what
Robinson and Zampese were thinking.  There was no way the Rams were
going to beat this juggernaut 49er team, but they still have to be
disappointed in Everett.

Dan

    
    Steven- I used facts and was bashed by you for saying Bronco fans
    were grasping at straws.  What am I to do?  Woe is me.
    
    Dan- I guess we agree on Everett and that the Rams had no chance
    on Sunday.  My only beef with Robinson is that the Rams seemed to
    not make any adjustments at halftime, and judging by the 49ers
    lackluster play in the second half, they might have been able to
    make it interesting.  It looked to me like the Rams had given up
    by halftime and that the Niners sensed this and relaxed.  
    
    Everett will be interesting to watch next year.  His Eason
    impersonation really bothered him.  It will be interesting to see
    if teams use what should be learned from this game next year 
    against the Rams.
    
    
    Bruce

    Steven, you are right that I started the 9ers not beating the broncos
    in the 80's.  I am also one of the 9er fans that ACTUALLY thinks that
    the Bronco's have a good chance at upsetting the 9ers.  Mental
    preparation for any game is of great importance and I believe that for
    what ever reason; The Bronco's believe they can win.  For some strange
    reason the Broncos have been able to stay close to the 9ers in recent
    games.  John Elway has given the 9ers lots of problems in the past, due
    mainly to his great mobility.  The Broncos have had a great deal of
    luck against the 9ers and took advantage of it.
    
    I know that the 49er players respect the Broncos and expecially thier
    quarterback Elway.  You do not win that many championships without
    respecting your opponent and being prepared for your opponent.
    
    Frank 9er Mendez
    

    I am not a diehard Donk fan, but I will be rooting for them in the
    Super Bowl (probably because they are the underdog, and also because I
    will never forget/forgive what Montana and Clark did to the Cowboys).
    
    What I want to say is that this is a situation which is ripe for
    surprise.  All of us have seen these "can't miss" situations in sports
    before.  Especially in the pros.  If you recall the Colts/Jets and
    Vikes/Chiefs SBs the situation was exactly the same ... the Colts and
    Vikes were being touted as "the Best Ever" and the AFC teeams were
    dismissed as nothings.  We all know the results.  I am not trying to
    compare teams are specific players,  I am only comparing situations and
    pointing out how history sometimes repeats itself.  This is one of the
    reasons why I never bet on sporting events.  REmember the '54 World
    series...The Indians had set a new AL games won record, etc.  I bet on
    the Indians.  I have never bet on a game since then.  
    
    Just a word of caution.

    
    What have I said that is full of kaka?  I haven't put any hype in
    here regarding the 49ers.  This looks like a case of "agree with
    me and you are OK, disagree and you are full of kaka"  to me.
    
    Bruce

>this is the kaka you're full of:    
    
>     >> For those of you clinging to the fact that the Broncos have beaten
>     >> the 49ers the last 3 times in the regular season (all close games),
    
>       No Donk fans are clinging to this fact. NO_NO_NOOOO_NOOOOOOOOOBODY,
>    or nobody in this file. I can't speak for the millions of Donk
>    fans around the globe.
 
    1st, I never said it was Bronco fans who were clinging to that fact.
    As you've pointed out time and time again, it has been others. 
    I was just pointing out that there were other teams who had been
    relatively successful against the 49ers in the regular season and
    when playoff time came around, it was a completely different situation.
    Second, how can you 1st say that "No Donk fans are clinging to this fact."
    and then go on to say you can't speak for millions of them.  Make
    up your mind.
                 
   > The second, which was quoted from .86, was the assertion that
   >  "asking about San Fran's record in domes", is also something
   > that is being clung to. 
    
    I never said anything about SF's record in domes or about those
    people who were wondering about it.    
         
 >      Now do you get it? In other words, actually the same words I've
 >  used before but you elected to ignore them, is if you're gonna bash
 >   the fans, use Facts. If you're gonna bash the Donks, then sling
 >   whatever you want.
    
    I did use facts and then you told me I was full of shit.  
    

    Bruce    
    

    Steven,
    
    	I never asked about the niner record in domes.  I think such
    	statistics are useless.  Other such useless statistics are
    	records against teams in the 80's, super bowl records, etc...
    	The bottom line is this is one, read that 2 less than 3, game
    	for all the marbles.  The only thing that matters is how they
    	play come Jan. 28th.  All of the speculation going on in here
    	is just that.....PURE SPECULATION!  I might believe all of
    	this "no chance" talk if EVERY SINGLE TIME a team is favored,
    	they win.  But, we all know this is not the case.....
    
    Bruce,
    
    	You are full of $hit!  Where have you been?  :^)
    
    amf,
    
    Claybone

    Re: .88
    
     I hope the Niners force Elway to improvise like they did
    Jim "Tony Eason Is My Idol) Everett.  Elway is at his best
    in that situation.  Look out Niners....  Here come the Bronc's
    
    Big Game
    
    
    Broncos  31
    
    Niners   27
    
    

>  Bruce, who in the world besides Donk fans would "cling to a fact"
>regarding the Donks vs. 9'ers as a reason for believing the Donks
>can win? Just who?  Your argument is degrading to one of semantics.
 
    I can think of several people, including 49er fans who are hoping
    for a good close game.  As a matter of fact (and you pointed this
    out earlier) a 49er fan brought this fact up.
    
       
> >>    Second, how can you 1st say that "No Donk fans are clinging to this fact."
> >>    and then go on to say you can't speak for millions of them.  Make
> >>    up your mind.          
                               
                               
  >That statement is perfectly qualified by "At least nobody in this file", 
  >which is where most normal people would base the discussion,
  >which you read but chose to ignore and leave out. Your selective editing 
  >leaves much to be desired. Typical journalist. 
                               
    Steven, you outright lied here.  I did NOT leave out your comment
    "At least nobody in this file."  Go back and look at .102. I left
    it in because I did NOT want to be accused of selective editing,
    which YOU used (why didn't you put in my whole reply) to make a
    personal attack on me.  I take it then that you are speaking for
     all Bronco fans in this file? 
                                  
>   > The second, which was quoted from .86, was the assertion that
>   >  "asking about San Fran's record in domes", is also something
>   > that is being clung to.      
                                  
                                  
>  This was directed at .86 and not at you. It was part of my master plan
>  to reveal the Anti-Donks for what they are. Full of kaka.         
                                  
       Yes but you seemed to be attribute it to me.  I wanted to make sure
    it was understood that I never said anything about it.
                                                          
    
    Bruce  

    If the Dodger's can beat the mighty A's with one of the worst lineups in
    World Series History, then denver can beat 'Frisco.
    
    the devil dog
    
    
    P.S. John Elway is no Orel Hershiser. 

    
    Big Mac, I never said racial slurs were okay as long as you were 
    ignorant.  I said that Bolan may not have know better & that now 
    that Bolan knows...he should apologize.  He has.  I work with kids 
    a great deal.  If they say something wrong.  I explain that it's wrong.
    I don't throw a fit.  Now if I know that child knows better...
    that's another story.  In my opinion this got blown way out of
    proportion even in an "adult" world.
    
    Hawk, ask any announcer in the league if Elway is the same 
    "on paper" as he is "on the field".  On second thought, don't
    waste your time....we all know their answer.
    
    John Hendry, nice to hear from ya again.  49ers and the Broncos
    have an equal chance of winning the Superbowl because they're
    both there....which is more than I can say for the....
    
    Bills, Colts, Bengals, Browns, Oilers, Chiefs, Dolphins, Jets, 
    Patriots, Steelers, Chargers, Seahawks, Raiders, Rams, Cowboys, Lions, 
    Packers, Vikings, Saints, Giants, Falcons, Bears, Redskins, Eagles,
    Buccaneers, and the Cardinals.
    
    Everybody can quote stats till they turn blue because that doesn't
    change it.
    						Jill

    	Hey, I just heard on WFAN on the way to work that they are indeed
    going to be playing the Super Bowl "on paper".  Details are still
    being worked out.
    
    				/Don

    I somewhat apologize for .86.  I was probably wrong to have said
    that whoever asked about the record in domes was clinging to false
    hope.  I apologize.
    
    There are some things that remain.  The Broncos SB loss in 1978
    is irrelevant.  The Niners wins in 1982 and 1985 are irrelevant.
    The Broncos 3 wins over the Niners in the eighties are probably
    irrelevant.  The Broncos recent losses in Super Bowls and the SF
    win last year are more relevant in the sense that most of the Bronco
    players are used to losing in the Super Bowl and the Niners are
    used to winning.  That can be argued 3 ways - positive mental attitude
    vs negative mental attitude (leading the Niners over the Broncos),
    or the fact that Denver really has nothing to lose vs the Niners
    being under more pressure, or even that Denver will be under more
    pressure to reverse their losing record in the big one.  I'm not
    really sure how to evaluate this one.
    
    My opinion about the outcome expressed in .86 still stands.  I believe
    that Denver is going to have to play a near perfect game to win,
    while at the same time San Francisco plays a below average game.
    
    John

    Line is now SF favored by 12, per this morning's Boston Globe.
    
    
    py

    
    I really hope to see Jim Burt crush Elway. I don't see frisco as a
    stupid team who will blitz Duke (hahahahaaaa). They'll leave him in
    the pocket where he'll make his mistakes. Elway is a lousy stationary
    passer. On the run he is amazing but in the pocket he throws into
    the dirt, over the head or into the defenders arms.......
    
    frisco 44
    donks  13
    
    mike

      I was the one who asked about dome stats!!!  I was just curious, but
    I'm sure as he!! not grasping for a anything.  Apology excepted.
    
      The score does start at 0-0, and then goes from there.  Next week is
    when all the hype will start.  I wish they were playing this week.  I
    hate the 2 week layoff.
    
      Maybe one of these days they will hold the SB in Denver.  Play it in
    snow like men like to,  and not in domes where boys do. We are getting
    a decent amount of snow right now.
    
    	TGIF
    
    			Tim

                   I think Steven and Bruce should be shot!
                    ( also Tim for asking dumb questions )
                                     *;'D

If Burt tries to `crush' Elway (one of the few manly quaterbacks in the league)
Burt will return to the locker room carrying his own head under his arm.

The Broncos have all the tools (or was that: The Broncos all have tools?? I
forget). Anyway, a Bronco victory is assured!
                                     Probable?
                                     Possible?

Okay, a Bronco victory is possible!

GO DONKS!! THRASH THE GIRLY-MON NINERS INTO LITTLE WADS OF TOAD EXCREMENT!!

Mike JN

    Steven - your arguments are full of kaka.
    
    Rich (The Mindless Basher)
    

Good note /Don, as usual


( Somebody had to say it.....
		            Sorry BoB......
                                          Sorry H'awk...... )
                                                             Mike JN........

    120 notes in the Super Bowl topic alone and the hype doesn't start 'til
    NEXT week?

    Who else can Bowlen insult?  The whole city of New Orleans that's
    who!  He said something like NO is not a good place to raise kids.
    Sheesh, somebody put a sock in that guys mouth!
    
    Claybone

      Give one to JN too.

     Just don't understand that A$$.  First he wants to piss off the
    best receiver in the NFL and now he want to turn a domed stadium
    full of fans against his team.  This guy may be one of the "Young
    Turks" in the NFL owners club but he's also quite a TURKEY !
    Shut Your Trap, Pat!  You're a Jerk !
    
    Big Game

    
    	RE:.117
    
    	What's this about TOAD extriments? I find that comment very racist
    against toads. I expect a full extraction, and a appology.
    
    

                                   MUUMMPH!

                             MUMPHASCHNOOKATUPA!!

                                KEENAFUPPJK!!!

    I think that means he's sorry, TOAD !!
    
    Big Game

    
    Have the Donks ever won an NFL Championship...?

    has GROANowski ever had a life??????????
    
    JaKe
    

    	Are you calling the 49ers pansies again MrT?  Like last year?
    
    				/Don

   � Now, I ain't sitting here saying that the AFC is better than the
   � NFC.  But this predominance bull must stop!  You look at the list
   � above and you see two things: 1) hype, 2) the clear fack that the
   � Bronks woulda kicked any of them and gone into the Super Bowl. 
    
    Woulda kicked any of them ???
    
    In case you need a memory jolt, the vaunted Broncos *LOST* to both
    the Eagles and the Giants right in their very own backyard in
    front of their very own Orange faithful.
    
    Based on those results, it's a little hard to see a "clear fack"
    in your statement.
    
    No doubt that a repeat engagement may indeed have had a different
    result, but a "clear fack" ???   No, monsieur, not by a Bronco
    longshot.
    
    Bob Hunt

 >       But this predominance bull must stop!  You look at the list
 >   above and you see two things: 1) hype, 2) the clear fack that the
 >   Bronks woulda kicked any of them and gone into the Super Bowl. 
  
    In your list you included the Giants and the Eagles, two teams which
    beat Denver AT Mile High.  It is not a clear fact that the Broncos
    would have beaten them and gone into the Super Bowl.  How Denver
    would have done vs. the other teams is conjecture.  I do agree that
    the 49ers seem to be at least a notch or two above these 2nd tier
    team (the teams you listed + Broncos).
    
    Bruce

    
    re .131
    
    Mike, I don't think he called them pansies.  I believe he said that
    they played 'wimp football.'  That was right before the Niners stomped
    the Vikings last year, which also proved that MrT's prescient abilities
    are nil.  
    
    I guess with MrT's return to football noting, It's time to reincarnate
    my p_n from last year.
    
    
    Bruce
     

    re .134
    
    OOps, thought that was Mike who said that, but it was the Slasher.
     Sorry.

    
    Steven, I just keep entering the truth over and over again because
    I don't want you guys to get too high about your chances. Just trying
    to save ya from the big fall......
    
    and you got to admit that it is an improvement from a few years ago
    when I gave him credit for nothing....
    
    T, the donks have a swisscheese defense. they earned their rating
    against weak opponents. Any team with muscle pushed them around
    bigtime.....
    
    mike
    

    Soooo, now we've gone from 5 or 6 nfc teams would have smashed
    the Donks to it would be hard to tell who would win!  Geez T,
    you shoulda jumped in here sooner.  These guys are backing down
    at your mere presence!
    
    The Eagle win was a fluke.  That was the day Ken Bell decided to
    catch punts on ludes.  He no longer returns punts.
    
    The Giants won fair and square in a close one.  No dominance
    involved at all.
    
    Who cares where these losses occured!  Where did San Fran lose
    their two games?  
    
    Claybone

    Yes both the Eagles and Giants beat Denver in Denver. Even their
    fans must admit, the Broncos were not dominated or soundly beaten
    in either game. Far from it.
    
    BoB

   � The Eagle win was a fluke.  That was the day Ken Bell decided to
   � catch punts on ludes.  He no longer returns punts.
    
    Some fluke.  Eagles took the opening kickoff and marched
    90-something yards in 13 or so plays with every play straight up
    the gut on the ground old-fashioned mano-�-mano.
    
    Grabbed a turnover and then smashed in for another score.  14-0
    and the Broncos were reeling.
    
    To the Broncos' credit, they did mount a comeback and managed to
    squeeze out a slim but short-lived lead before Bell decided to
    put on a "How Not To ..." display on that final fatal punt.
    
    The Broncos didn't lose that game on the muffed punt.  They lost
    it on the ground in the first two series when the Eagles
    reintroduced them to smash-mouth football.
    
    And then the Jints came in a few weeks later and smashed in the
    mouth all over again.
    
    Bob Hunt

       Hey Bob, wasn't that the game where a Donk fan told us, "if you
    don't count the first quarter the Donks might have won"?
                                        Denny

Here are some facts that can be used to further the argument as to whether
the NFC teams are steps above the AFC teams.  At the end is some comparisons
that might prove advantagious to one side or the other.  Use them well.

The Wizard

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Week 1:

Cincinatti	14			Houston		 7
Chicago		17			Minnesota	38

San Fransisco	30			Seattle		 7
Indianapolis	24			Philadelphia	31

--------------------------------

Week 2:

Indianapolis	17			Phoenix		34
L.A. Rams	31			Seattle		24

----------------------------------

Week 3:

Atlanta		 9			Minnesota	14
Indianapolis	13			Pittsburgh	27

------------------------------------

Week 4:

Pittsburgh	23			San Diego	24
Detroit		 3			Phoenix		13

------------------------------------

Week 5:

-----------------------------------

Week 6:

Houston		33			New England	15
Chicago		28			Atlanta		16

N.Y. Jets	14			L.A. Rams	20
New Orleans	29			Buffalo		23

-----------------------------------

Week 7:

Dallas		28			Green Bay	20
Kansas City	36			Miami		23

L.A. Raiders	 7			New England	20
Philadelphia	10			San Fransisco	37

N.Y. Giants	20			Chicago		 7
San Diego	13			Cleveland	27

------------------------------------

Week 8:

Philadelphia	28			San Fransisco	23
Denver		24			N.Y. Jets	10

Tampa Bay	23			Washington	24
Cincinatti	56			L.A. Raiders	37

------------------------------------

Week 9:

Buffalo		28			Cleveland	42
Atlanta		30			Tampa Bay	31

Detroit		31			Philadelphia	17
Houston		35			San Diego	20

------------------------------------

Week 10:

Chicago		20			New Orleans	28
Pittsburgh	 0			New England	24

------------------------------------

Week 11:

Detroit		 7			Miami		17
Cincinatti	42			Dallas		14

Seattle		 3			Denver		14
N.Y. Giants	15			Washington	10

--------------------------------------

Week 12:

Cleveland	10			Atlanta		 7
Detroit		13			N.Y. Jets	27

---------------------------------------

Week 13:

--------------------------------------

Week 14:

New Orleans	22			N.Y. Giants	14
Buffalo		19			Denver		 7

Phoenix		14			San Diego	21
L.A. Raiders	16			Washington	26

Tampa Bay	17			Kansas City	21
Houston		20			Green Bay	 3

---------------------------------------

Week 15:

Denver		37			Buffalo		10
Phoenix		 0			San Fransisco	31

Minnesota	17			N.Y. Jets	14
Cleveland	23			L.A. Rams	38

---------------------------------------

Week 16:

Washington	29			Indianapolis	 6
Seattle		 0			New Orleans	41

L.A. Raiders	17			L.A. Rams	24
N.Y. Giants	34			New England	20

Pittsburgh	31			Cincinatti	21
Tampa Bay	22			Minnesota	29




NFC	28 Wins
AFC	24 Wins


NFC teams that were playoff bound went:		16-4
AFC teams that were playoff bound went:		12-9

NFC teams that were playoff bound versus AFC teams that were playoff bound:

		NFC    4 wins		AFC    3 wins

   �    Hey Bob, wasn't that the game where a Donk fan told us, "if you
   � don't count the first quarter the Donks might have won"?
    
    That's the one, Denny.    I was rollward, for sure ...
    
    Guess the Broncos and their fans can only wish they could have
    applied that same logic to the second quarter, 35-point blowout
    the Skins laid on 'em two years ago in Supe 22.
    
    Bob Hunt

    	Take away the second half of the '87 Super Bowl and what have
    you?  Take away the 2nd quarter of the '88 Super Bowl and what have
    you?  The Broncos were beaten but surely not dominated.
    
    			Broncos #1

    Eagles took the win and were happy. Nothing more nothing less.
    Nothing of substance was proven or shown either way. Two fquick
    running TD's and then the rushing game abandoned the EAgles for the
    rest of the season. It was surprising. Congratulations.
    As far as the smash mouth Giants game went, thanks for enlightening
    me Bob.  It looked like a couple of teams that neither wanted to or
    really did ever take control of the game. Some kind of smash mouth.
    
    BoB

    I love the way you describe things.  For the eagles it was
    smash, stomp, kick butt.......for the Donks it was a short-lived,
    small, barely breathing lead.  Whatever.
    
    That fumbled punt did cost them the game.  There was only about
    5 minutes left in the game and the offense was clicking which
    means that they could probably have run the clock out.  That wasn't 
    the only miscue he made.  I think he fumbled 3 punts and didn't field
    one or two that cost the donks important field position.  But hey,
    let's just say it was a close game.  I'll back off from my "fluke"
    statement.  That was a little heavy.
    
    Claybone

   � 	Take away the second half of the '87 Super Bowl and what have
   � you?  Take away the 2nd quarter of the '88 Super Bowl and what have
   � you?  The Broncos were beaten but surely not dominated.
    
    Yes, they were dominated ... and don't call me Shirley.
    
    Saying that the Donks were beaten but not dominated in Supe 21 and
    Supe 22 is like saying that the French just *barely* lost to the
    Germans in that other Roman-numeraled, slightly more significant
    event way back in 1940.
    
    Bob Hunt

    Steven:  Master of the Skin Flute  :^0   
    
    heh, heh,
    
    Claybone

    From .146 (BoB) ...
    
   � Eagles took the win and were happy. Nothing more nothing less.
   � Nothing of substance was proven or shown either way. Two fquick
   � running TD's and then the rushing game abandoned the EAgles for the
   � rest of the season. It was surprising. Congratulations.
    
    Abandoned for the rest of the season ???   If anything, they stuck
    with it too long to the detriment of their deep passing game.
    
    The Eagles gained over 2,200 yards on the ground this past year. 
    They hardly stopped running.   Ask the Jints how they enjoyed
    watching the fourth quarter of their 3-Dec-1989 loss to the Eagles
    slip away due to Keith Byars' kill-the-clock running.  
    
    That 2,200 total *does* include the 600 or so yards that Randall
    Cunningham produced.  Sure hope you Donk fans don't try and
    rationalize away the running yards gained by a running
    quarterback.
    
   � As far as the smash mouth Giants game went, thanks for enlightening
   � me Bob.  It looked like a couple of teams that neither wanted to or
   � really did ever take control of the game. Some kind of smash mouth.
    
    Yeah, it was.  Ask Bobby Humphrey if he'd like to run into Gary
    Reasons at the goal line again.
    
    Bob Hunt                                     

                               T KNOWS FOO'BALL

	Here goes T, offering OPINIONS on the relative worth of 6 NFC
teams, as compared to the Broncos, and asking us to believe that they
are FACTS. Some people offer REAL PROOF - Head-to-Head Competition
at the Broncos home field, no less, and he pooh-poohs it.

	Methinks T is full of himself

Jim M

    
    The problem in -1 is that you are counting on a turnover or 2. 
    Joe doesn't throw interceptions often, just 8 this year I think.
    I believe he has yet to throw one in a Superbowl.  Teams that count
    on a lot of turnovers to beat the 49ers lose.  
    
    Yes T, you did say they play wimp football last year.  I thought it
    was quite funny at the time.
    
    Bruce

    MrT, if the Bronks get beat real bad, will you "get down on your knees
    and bark like a dog for me?"  Make that, "for all the SPORTS noters?"
    
    :-)
    
    Hawk

    My only point being Bob, if those 2 games are an indication
    of NFC over AFC superiority, it certainly isn't as wide a gap
    as many would have us believe. No team has dominated Denver
    this season.   
    
    BoB

    1)  I give up my favorite beverage for a_month.
    
    2)  +21

   � My my my.  I wanna thank you NFC men for entering the unconvincing
   � entries that you did.  What was it Dan used to say, "anecdotal?"
    
    Unconvincing pour vous, perhaps.  But, Eagles 28 to the Donks 24
    and Giants 14 to the Donks 7 are enough to convince my feeble
    brain.  Oh, and final scores on the board are hardly anecdotal, 
    O Former GhosT Person.
    
   � Look, sure the Bronks got beat a couple.  But cain't the same be
   � said for the Beagles?  Now, there's a team with a QB who's fast
   � getting a reputation as the World B. Free of the NFL.  Yeah, he's
   � taller than World and has hair, but forget that.  Cunningham is
   � the master of the spectacular game, and then the 8^o game.  Yet
   � youse guys from the Land of Yo! were fond of pointing to them as
   � if they somehow represented an elite squad.  Same for Minnesota.
    
    "Land Of Yo!" ?!?!?  I like it.  Nice touch.  Cunningham as the
    World B. Free of football, eh ???  Interesting theory.   Not so
    sure that His Rudeness will permit such a style of play.  
    Buddy-Ball is no doubt rooted in the Smith Barney approach as
    proven by His Rudeness' often over-insistence on the running game
    this past season.  Which is why that I, along with most of the
    other Yo!-folk, believe that one day the bright lights of
    Hollywood will beckon young Mr. Cunningham westward.
    
   � All that's over now, and this objective sports analyst would like
   � you to look at the 28-24 and notice how marginal it is, especially
   � with so many of the NFCs in decline AFCs zooming.
    
    Sorry, T, I ain't-a buyin' it.   With a full *SEVEN* NFC teams
    racking up double digits in les victories versus just *UNO* in the
    AFC, I submit that the NFC has far outstripped the once-dominant
    American Conference chaps.
    
    Niners, Rams, Pack, Vikes, Jints, Iggles, and Skins all had 10 or
    more in the big "W" column.  Donks were all by their little
    lonesome with their 11 wins.   Bills, Browns, Oiler, and Steelers
    all came up a "W" short.
    
    Bob Hunt                

    Time out here.  I'm not going to say the AFC is better than the
    NFC, because I don't believe it to be true, but in defense of the
    AFC I will say that all 14 teams aren't seperated by much skill,
    whereas the NFC has both extremes.  This accounts for the won-lose
    records.
    
    The NFC as a whole had a record of 114-110   or .509
    The AFC as a whole had a record of 109-113-2 or .491
    
    Just .018 seperate the two leaques in won-lose, less than 2%
    
    The Wizard

Lets see...

The best team from the AFC plays the best team from the NFC each year...

The NFC has been represented by different teams in each of the last 4
superbowls. 

86 bears
87 Skins
88 Giants
89 49ers

The NFC has won each of the last 4 superbowls with the exception of 89 in blow
out fashion....


I'd say the NFC has a very convincing case for being dominant over the AFC. It
hasn't been 1 superpower team. It has been 4 different teams over the past 4
years that have won the big enchilada.....

Or don't Championships count T ? Would you rather have John Handry compile
a cross reference based on his famous 64 point must system ? Don't forget
how much trouble that caused you the last time...... :-)


Metz

    Re: T (who else ???)
    
    Gawd, I luv having you back out of your closet.   Just when I was
    about to pull a Snagglepuss on this conference for fear of
    terminal boredom, you ditch your Casper p_name routine and get
    back in here to liven the joint up.
    
   � Yo Hunt what it is is the haid-to-haid that is the thang.  Rest
   � of it amounts to cash feeding on trash, and *that* preaches a sermon
   � on the inconsistency in the National, perhaps.  28-24, perhaps this
   � is definitely marginal, eh?  
    
    So, the NFC elite are "cash feeding on trash", eh ???  Perhaps you
    need a primer or two on your Darwinist theories.   This particular
    phenomenon is known as "survival of the fittest", don'tcha know ??
    
    The "Magnificent Seven" of the NFC racked up their double digit
    wins because they won their football games on the field.   I,
    personally, prefer watching a frenzy of seven or so large "take no
    prisoners" sharks feast en masse on the poor little wannabes.
    
    Contrast that image, with, of course, Parityville USA, also known
    as the American Fantasy Conference.  Where we get to watch a
    plethora of 9-7, 8-8, and 7-9 yawners take turns making the AFC
    tubeheads regurgitate the weekly "on any given Sunday" drivel.
    
    Sort of like going to see Westminster and noticing that the
    prize pooches are all pretty muttly in a parity sort of way.
    
   � No, cain't agree with ya.  Not enough corroboration for these
   � tough standards.  Barely getting over a couple of times leaves too
   � much else mysteriously unexplained.
    
    Broken record, T-babe.   Your track record is littered with a
    myriad of old cigarette butts that symbolically represent the
    umpteen times you've tried to foist on us another retreat from any
    reality but your own.   You have "tough standards" ???  
    Puh-leeze.   Your only standard is the American Standard brand
    toilet that you use to flush opposing viewpoints down whenever you
    ain't got any more loaves to peench.
    
   � Agree with MrT that Minny/Philly/Giants ain't gonna skeer ANYBODY
   � into submitting with domination.  The NFC-daze-as-dominatrix are
   � closing down now.  And we're all the better for it.
    
    There's only *ONE* team in the entire National Fantasy League that
    ought to have the word "dominant" mentioned in the same breath. 
    That is the same team that you said last year plays "wimp
    football".
    
    It's a source of constant amazement (and amusement) to me how you
    can take a statistic, in the case, the NFC's 28-24 record over the
    AFC, and use it to insist that the opposite is true.   Orwell
    definitely had you in mind.   Only you would say that "Down is
    really Up".  Only you would say that 28 wins to 24 losses means
    that the NFC is on the way down.
    
    I dunno, T, looks tome like the NFC did alright this year.  How
    about if we wait until next year's inter-conference results are in
    before we start to pinpoint some long-term trend-a-roonies here. 
    
    Whatta ya say, pal ???  Is it a deal ???  I really don't want to
    make you run away and hide in your p_name space again.
    
    Bob Hunt

    Okay, let's conisder then for just a second the record of the 5
    NFC playoff teams head-to-head versus the 5 AFC playoff teams. 
    An "elite-versus-elite", if you will.  This will take out the
    romps over Dallas, Atlanta, San Diego, and the Jets that just
    about everybody enjoyed.
    
    Shall we ???
    
    NFC East played AFC West ...	Eagles beat Broncos
    					Giants beat Broncos
    
    NFC Central played AFC Central ...	Vikings beat Browns ??
    					Vikings lost to Steelers
    					Vikings beat Oilers ??
    
    NFC West played AFC East ...	Niners beat Bills
    					Rams lost to Bills
    
    I admit that I don't remember the results of Cleveland vs
    Minnesota or Houston vs Minnesota.  I'm willing to stand corrected
    on those.   If I have guessed right, then the NFC playoff teams
    won 5 games over their AFC playoff rivals versus 2 AFC wins.
    
    Does that prove anything ???   No, but it changes the subject a
    little bit.
    
    Bob Hunt

    Houston	 7	Minnesota	14	
    Minnesota	38      Pittsburgh      27
    
    Philadelphia 28     L.A. Rams	20
    Denver	 24     Buffalo		23
    
    N.Y. Giants  14     Minnesota 	17
    Denver	  7     Cleveland       23
    
    Buffalo	 10
    San Fran.    31
    
    Looks like 4 to 3 to me.  If you're going to site facts, then
    you'd better know what you are talking about.  Not 15 replies
    ago I said this very same thing.
    
    The Wizard
    
    

�    Contrast that image, with, of course, Parityville USA, also known
�    as the American Fantasy Conference.  Where we get to watch a
�    plethora of 9-7, 8-8, and 7-9 yawners take turns making the AFC
�    tubeheads regurgitate the weekly "on any given Sunday" drivel.
    
    There have been a few interesting editorials on parity in the local
    papers.  Basically the writer was saying that we still don't have
    parity and wishes the commentators would stop droning on about it. 
    Becasue of the few number of games in the NFL season, W-L stats are
    misleading.  In an NFL season of 16 games, one game above .500 is a 9-7
    record.  This translates to a WP of .563.  Not too bad a WP for a
    baseball team.
    
    If there was truly parity, we wouldn't hear about upsets, now would we? 
    There are still underdogs in the NFL.  The bell curve representing the
    W-L records of the teams stills shows a pretty wide distribution-
    parity would give you a spike.  An argument showing parity exists could
    be made by pointing out the difficulty in repeat performers in the
    Super Bowl, but, the playoff teams have been basically the same over
    the last decade.

    The alledged NFC elite went out with not so much as a whimper.
    They will be at home watching the game just like the dregs 
    of the poor AFC. Why bother?..they ask.  Phone in the score!
    If WE, the elite,  can't do it how can the lowly Broncos expect do it?
    Asking the question gives all the loosers a warm feeling.
    
    BoB 

                            
-   Besides the Broncos, who in the AFC could match up with the NFC's
    Magnificent Seven? (TM to Bob Hunt)  I don't think there is a team,
    and the Broncos lost to both games they played against the Magnificent
    Seven.  It's being kind to put the Broncos in with them.
     
-   The 28-24 advantage the NFC enjoyed over the AFC  *IS* a statistically
    significant advantage.
    
-   While the NFC playoff teams only beat their AFC counterpart in 4
    out of 7 games, it is important to note that 5 of those seven games
    were home games for the AFC team.  They couldn't even win more when
    they had a decided advantage in home fields.
    
    
    Bruce     

    If the Bucanneers can hold mighty SF to a last second FG to
    win, anything is possible. We shall see.
    
    BoB 

>-   The 28-24 advantage the NFC enjoyed over the AFC  *IS* a statistically
>    significant advantage.

Not to come to MrT's aid in his first day out of confinement, but
it is?  If I had a fair coin, and tossed it 52 times, and I got 28 heads
and 24 tails, I wouldn't be very surprised.  I'd say there's little
statistical significance (i.e. a very high possibility that 28-24 
is random chance) in this outcome you've sited.

Dan

    It was most satisfying to know Denver did it's best to keep 
    one of the alledged magnificant 7 out of the playoffs thgis
    season. The Broncos defeated the Skins in RFK on monday night
    with a backup qb. It was magnificant.  
    
    BoB

    But Bob,
    
    They lost to both teh Giants and Eagles, teams that T has said noone
    was skeert of.
    
    If the broncos played in the NFC, they probably wouldn't even make
    the playoffs.
    
    And remember, the only real dominant team the AFC has had has been
    the Steelers, a real NFL team (Okay, the Raiders were dominant
    also...).
    
    The AFC has always been the girly-mon sissy league - if the NFL
    didn't give them the Steelers, Colts and Browns, the AFC would be
    looked upon as the sub-sahara of professional sports.
    
    JD

    JD you really need to make an appointment with a drug
    counselor. They can do miracles with therapy nowadays.
    
    BoB 

    re. 75 and .77
    
    My mistake JD. Alabama also had three starters.
    
    Also Gerela and Cox both scored in three Super Bowls. In 1980 Matt
    Bahr was the Pittsburgh kicker.
    
    Alabama also has the most MVP's (3).
    
    
    My two cents on the AFC-NFC debate. Of course the NFC is better,but
    the 7-1 advantage in 10 victory teams is misleading. In the AFC
    there was only one horrible team (the Jests) and few other
    patsies(New England).
    
    Philly and the Giants had a guaranteed 4-0 against Phoenix and Dallas.
    Atlanta,Tampa Bay and even the Bears(late in the season) were also
    stinkers.
    
    The NFC has the 4 best teams (SF,NY,LA and Philly) but the AFC may
    have 10 of the next 14. 

    The current score in Super Bowls is:
    
    Original NFC 16 (SF 3,Pitt 4,Was,GB,Dall 2,NY,Chi,Balt
             AFC 7  (Oak 3,Mi 2,NY,KC)
    
    Take away the Raiders and an AFC team hasn't won since Miami in
    1974! But these things can change quick.

    For comparison, here's Denver's record in domes:
    
    at Detroit		1-1
    at Houston		5-7
    at Indianapolis	1-1
    at Minneapolis	0-1
    at New Orleans	0-1
    at Seattle		6-8
    
    total		13-19
    
    They also lost a Super Bowl game indoors at New Orleans.
    
    John

�    Original NFC 16 (SF 3,Pitt 4,Was,GB,Dall 2,NY,Chi,Balt
�             AFC 7  (Oak 3,Mi 2,NY,KC)

What's with this `original' NFC?!

	That's like saying the `original' inhabitants of the United States, and
trying to make some statistical point regarding battles won and lost. Or
talking East Coast vs West Coast baseball, and saying `but of course the
Dodgers were once East Coast'. So what? It's totally invalid.

	The discussion was NFC vs AFC, and if you check it out, it's
AFC 12  NFC 11

	Not exactly an NFC domination.

Mike JN	

    
    	How about in the last decade?
    
    sean

    If you say "former American Football League teams" 7 then it's
    accurate.  There are 10 former AFL teams in the NFL - NE, NYJ, Cin,
    Mia, Raiders, SD, KC, Buf, Hou and Den.  They make up 35.7% of the
    NFL and have won 30.4% of the Super Bowls.  2 teams, San Francisco
    and Cleveland, come from the AAFC.  They make up 7.1% of the league
    and have won 13.0% of the Super Bowls.  The remaining 16 teams make
    up 57.1% of the league and have won 56.5% of the Super Bowls.
    
    John

    
    RE: the 28 to 24 NFC "dominance"
    
    That is hardly dominate. That means the NFC won exactly 2 more
    interconference games than the AFC, out of 26 games.
    
    
    Big Mac hit it right on the head concerning the so-called league
    parity. Parity is a scheduling farce. When you have last place teams
    in different divisions playing each other twice, someone has to chalk
    one up in the win column. On the other end, when the top teams play
    each other, someone has to lose. This is why I wish they would expand
    so that there are 5 teams in every division, eliminate the
    inter-conference games. Play an 18 game schedule, 2 pre-season games.
    Play the teams in your division twice and every other team in your
    conference once, like they used to do. That way you are guarenteed that
    the top teams are in the playoffs. No team would get in due to their
    schedule. But, I doubt it will ever happen. Makes too much sense.
    
                                                   HOOT
    

	I don't want to get particularly metaphysical about it, but I think
parity *IS* here.

	An objective look at the raw talent available on a given team, and most
people would agree that the teams in the NFL are pretty much equal in the
talent department.

	What makes a team more dominant in a given year hinges on the other
aspects of the game. Coaching, motivation, game plan/strategy, personality mix,
and the Team's belief system. That belief system is just like `momentum' in a
game. It is an extremely high confidence level, a certainty that good things
will happen, an overall winner attitude. And just like `MO', it results from a
combination of things: skill and luck.

	The Bears had it a few years back. The Niners have it now. In both
cases, it started with a game plan which was not being properly countered by
their opposition. With the Bears it was the 46 Defense. Each win fed the
feeling of invincibility. A sometimes lackadaisical effort might ensue, then
the team would fire up and pull out a close one. This would further fuel the
positive belief system.

	With the Niners, it's their Offensive strategy. Their defense is
adequate, maybe even good.... not great. Montana is a very good quarterback,
and he is being utilized in a manner which MAKES him great. Their running backs
are good... not great. Their receivers are very good. EVERY player on the team
is playing at a slightly higher level because of the team's positive belief
system. Walsh put this in place, and George was smart enough not to screw with
it. Montana is a savvy quarterback, doesn't rattle easily, and he and his
receivers have got their timing down pat. Montana makes a quick drop and
releases the ball in 2 to 3 seconds for four to eight yard gains. If the
defense tries to take away passing lanes, or move up to defense the short pass,
Montana has more time, and can throw long; when linebackers play off the line
to defense the pass, Craig or Rathman run it for 4 to 8 yards. The Niners are
using the pass in order to establish the run! This is not something you find a
lot of in the NFL, and teams have not been able to adequately combat this
strategy..... hence the Niner dominance. I don't feel the Niners are any better
than the Broncos. But they are playing at a higher level because of that super
positive belief system, which has been fed and reinforced all year.

	The only way the Broncos can win is for the coaching staff to find a
way to successfully combat what has been a nearly unstoppable Offensive
strategy. If they hit on the solution, they can take away a lot of what the
Niners count on to feed their belief system. When it's down to one game for all
the marbles, a belief system can be shaken...... there's no tomorrow. The
Broncos have a chance. It will take skill, luck, and a coaching answer to the
Niner strategy. I'm not betting this one, dudes.

Mike JN

    re -1.
    
    	Skill and Luck...you forgot about 
    
    
    		HOW MUCH YOU PAY THE REFS!
    
    
    	Hal
             o
    	GO CAVS
    

      I say the Broncos "D" can contain, not stop, but contain Montana and
    clan.  I hope this doesn't turn into a offensive battle like the dawg
    game last weekend,  unless Denver does most of the scoring.  I'm being
    a realist here.  You can't stop the 9'rs,  but they can be contained.
    
      Elway will take advantage of rollouts and scrabbles.  The 9's have a
    hard time stopping that.  I hope they work on that option play some
    more.  And I hope the Broncos get he opening kickoff so they can set a
    pace for themselves.
    
      Special teams needs to put some heavy hits on Taylor. And lets not
    forget tackling.  No missed tackles!!!!!
    
      I agree that the corner backs are week, especially Henderson,  but I
    feel they can hold there own.  They should play tight man-man in my
    opinion.  I think Joe would eat up a zone.  Of course,  it all depends
    on the play "situation".
    
      I heard that a "nameless" raider fan is giving 17 points to the
    Broncos.  Where is this sucker (I mean person)?
    
      Time to start the hype!!!
    
    					Tim

    > Time to start the hype!
    
    You'd think that the Super Bowl was postponed with the lack of hype, or
    is it just me?  I realize that the world is expecting a no contest, but
    I figured that I'd be sick of all the crap on tv, radio, and the
    newspapers by now.  Not that I miss it, but it sure seems strange.....
    
    Just an fyi, the Boston PBS station is showing 2 football specials
    tonight starting at 9.  I forget the titles but the 1st one is
    something about the non-glorious side of players lives (ie. a disabling
    injury), followed by a biography of Vince Lombardi (played by Ernest
    Borgnine- looks exactly like Lombardi).
    
    Hawk

    
    The 49ers have no defense....go there to win the game!
    

    
    	49ers have no defense?  Guess that's why Minnesota only scored
    13 points and the Rams scored an amazing 3....  Thanks for clearing
    that up.
    
    sean

    If you really believe the niners have no defense, well, I have this
    bridge.  The niners have had one of the top defenses in the NFC
    for years on end.  The D is always overshadowed by the offense,
    and by other teams, such as the Bears, Vikes, and Giants.  But the
    niner defense is a good unit.
    
    JD

    
    Both of those teams let the 49ers go out in front first which 
    threw them out of their game plan.  I still say the 49ers have
    no defense.  Beat on them for awhile and you will win the game!
    I haven't heard of one person from their defense....not one.
    The only people I've heard about is Montana and Rice...
    
    Hal

Heh, heh,......saw this in the nfl notefile.  Enjoy!
    
amf,
    
Claybone
    
             <<< STKCSC::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]NFL.NOTE;1 >>>
                          -< NFL - American Football >-
================================================================================
Note 79.282                Denver Broncos (1989-1990)                 282 of 285
CSC32::M_VALENZA "Go Broncos"                        47 lines  22-JAN-1990 04:15
           -< Are Colorado teams doomed to lose championship games? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Woody Paige's column in today's Denver Post suggests a rather
    interesting theory about why Denver always loses in the Super Bowl: 
    polycythemia.  Paige quotes the Air Force Academy's swimming coach, Dr.
    Tom Fritz, as saying that for those whose bodies have adjusted to
    higher altitudes, after several days at a lower altitude the
    blood starts to thicken, and the body produces too many red blood
    cells.  The symptoms include weakness, light-headedness and general
    fatigue.  If the players only spend a couple of days at the lower
    altitude, it doesn't affect them very much; but for Super Bowl games
    the period stretches to a week, which does cause a problem.

    According to Fritz:

    	Polycythemia seems to most affect males under stress.  That fits
        the Broncos.  It's important they counter the effects.  I recommend
        they get a lot more rest than usual and not overdo it.  It disturbs
        me that teams like the Broncos go to the Super Bowl, party, stay up
        late, change their nutritional habits and drink for several days,
        then think they can get ready for the game in the last two nights. 
        The Broncos should eat normal, abstain from alcohol and get rest
        and sleep.  They should drink plenty of water and maybe take salt
        tablets to retain fluids.

        And a blood-thinning pill or liquid also could be very beneficial.

        The team should be serious about the possibility of polycythemia. 
        Look what happened to the CU Buffs when they went down for a week
        before the Orange Bowl.  In the second half they had nothing left.

    Paige suggests one solution:  blood doping.  This process, which some
    bicyclists actually use in some international competition, involves
    withdrawing a pint or more of blood from athletes before a competition,
    and then reinjecting it just before the event.  This practice has been
    outlawed by several amateur athletic organizations and the
    International Olympic Committee.  Paige thinks that the NFL would also
    be likely to frown on the procedure.

    In any case, Paige concludes his column with the following words:

        Why is it that CU, the Air Force Academy and the Broncos can't win
        when they spend a week at lower altitudes before playing a game?

        The Broncos must heed Fritz's warning.

        What have they got to lose--another Super Bowl?

    -- Mike

    re .191:                                                  
    
    > Both of those teams let the 49ers go out in front first which 
    > threw them out of their game plan.
    
    If "both of those teams" is referring to the 49ers playoff opponents
    (Minnesota and LA), this statement is incorrect.  The Rams scored the
    first points of the NFC Championship Game on a field goal.
    
    
    py

>      Both of those teams let the 49ers go out in front first which 
>    threw them out of their game plan.  
    
    	Who scored first in the Rams-SF game? (and if my memory serves
    correct, who scored first in the Minnesota game?)
    
    >   The only people I've heard about is Montana and Rice...
    
    	Probably because they are the only names you've listened to.
    You've never heard of Craig, Taylor, Rathman, Flagler, Jones or
    Lott (to name a few)?  Well if you watch the SB you may just hear
    a couple of them names...
    
    > Beat on them for awhile and you will win the game!
      
    	Nice idea.  How long is awhile?  The Rams were up by how many
    point going into the fourth quarter in their 30-27 loss...
    
    	You obviously don't know much about SF because you choose not
    to...
    
    sean

    
    Those teams you mentioned are no good either!  They wouldn't have
    a chance against the top AFC teams!  They are pretenders.  
    
    You are right about one thing...they are good, but, they are not
    
    				GREAT!
    
    HAL

    
    3 points is not enough...you have to get a TD, then stop montana
    and get another TD.  That will win the game!  Make the D look like
    they don't know what is going on.  Take them out of their game plan.
    Make montana throw the long one.....if he can....which I really
    don't think he can.  If the above happens...look for Joey Bob to
    throw a couple of interceptions.
    
    Hal
    

    
    	two TD's equals 14 points...  SF came from 17 points behind
    to beat LA.  Guess that theory's dead.
    
    sean

    Someone who works in the same facility as Mr. Whitehair, please find
    out what Hal ate for lunch, then proceed to report this to the proper
    authorities.  I'd hate to turn on the 6 o'clock news tonight to find
    out that hundreds of fellow DECies innocently ingested this wild
    hallugeon(Tm) that Mr. Whitehair is clearly and obviously enjoying....
    
    :-)
    
    Hawk 

    Hal, just cause YOU'VE never heard of Ronnie Lott, Micheal Carter,
    Bill Romanowski, Keena Turner, etc. hardly means that their defense
    is poor. Since 1981 the 9ers have a .770+ ROAD winning pct. You
    need defense to accomplish that. Also, in response to one of your
    earlier notes, it figures that a Brown-stain fan would accuse a
    team of paying off a ref.8^. Seems to me that the Bengals had the
    9ers down last year around this time, and when the time came, the
    D tightened, and Joltin'Joe Montana took over. I recall another team
    with one of those "no-name" defenses and they seemed to do alright
    back in the early '70's.
    				Raider_Rich
    

      Wow Hal, Give me some too!!
    
    
      Broncos to win big one!!
    
    				Tim

    
    RE: 49ers D
    
    To top it off that idiot Mike Shanahan cut Pro Bowler Matt Millen who
    just happens to now start for the defending world champions. He didn't
    try to trade him, he just cut him. Simply brilliant. Oh well, I'm glad
    to see him get another championship ring. He is an excellent MLB.
    
    I take it that the Colorado Springs donk fans that have told me to move
    to LA if I don't like the donks will be rooting for the 49ers this
    Sunday, or are planning to move to Denver. Using their theories, the
    49ers are their only option due to the fact that their starting CB
    Darryl Pollard is from Colorado Springs, their punter/3rd QB Barry
    Helton is from Simla (small town just east of the Springs) and I
    believe another player and a coach are also from this area.
    
                                                   HOOT
    

    Nobody get's cut without Al's consent.
    
    BoB

    
    Matt Millen another fine all-madden player.....
    
    I must admit though with the picking of 5 donks madden has lost some
    respect around here....
    
    ;^)
    
    mike

    
    I didn't think he ever picked any AFC players, at all.  
    
    Now, they're all Donks..  what a disgrace..

    Madden generally picks very few AFC players because he sees very
    few AFC teams play during the season.
    
    John

    
    ...and smart enought to admit his mistake and can him.
    
    
    BoB,
    You don't really believe that do you? Do you still believe that Davis
    is the one that fired Willie Brown? If you do, I have some great bech
    front property outside of Divide you might be interested in.
    
                                                   HOOT
    

    Davis told Millen that he could still play football, but he would
    stand behind his coach (Sha-na-na). And Davis decided to give Sha-na-na
    enough rope to hang himself, so he let Mikey fire Willie Brown.
    
    When Shanahan fired Brown, he pretty much dug his own grave unless
    he won - and quick.

    
    Anyone else going through NFL withdrawal????   Hard to believe
    there's only 6 days left to the season.  I'll miss it.....
    although a Bronco win Sunday could help me get through the 
    off-season adequately.
    
    						Jill

    
    The bottom line is that Shanahan had control of the coaching staff and
    the players. If you don't want to believe it, oh well thems the facts.
    When Shanahan fired Willie Brown, Davis was furious and immediately
    offered him a front office job which Brown accepted. Brown is stepping
    down from that job to take a coaching job with a college team, I forget
    who, because he wants to coach not sit behind a desk. Shanahan is the
    sole reason Earl Leggett is not with the RAIDERS today. He personally
    does not like the man and totally disagreed with the way he was running
    the team from his coaching strategies to the way he treated people like
    they were little kids with his stupid rules. Al Davis did tell Shanahan
    he would give him plenty of time. As it turned out he almost gave him
    too much time as Shanahan was turning the organization into a shambles.
    Davis was left with no choice but to get rid of him or watch his
    organization go down the tubes.
    
                                                   HOOT 

    
    Seems like Shanahan was a plant by Reeves to disrupt the Raiders.
    Afterall they did take him right back....
    
    ;^)
    
    mike

      If the raiders had better quality players,  then maybe they wouldn't
    be losers.  Yes they do have some good ones,  but not enough to make an
    impact all the way around.
    
      Millen being cut shocked me to.  Of course Hardens cut from the
    Broncos floored me as well.  But,  you give up old veterans for new
    muscle and speed.
    
      Now to SB news...Its a 12.5 point spread.  These guys in vegas must
    be doing some "ice or crack" to be putting that kind of spread up. 
    They must be doing it from past history.  The Broncos are a totally
    different defensive team now,  and the offense is more balanced than
    it was 2-3 years ago.
    
      Look for the upset come Sunday.  Then come monday,  look for excuses.
    
      I'll be here no matter the outcome...
    
    		Tim

    re: -1
    
    The oddsmakers are merely reacting to the publics' betting tendencies.
    They aren't suggesting that the 49ers are 12.5 points better than the
    Broncos (if they were posting the line based on how much better the
    9ers are the spread would be closer to 24!!!), rather the public has
    come in so one-sided in the wagers that Vegas is struggling to find a
    line that will get someone (ANYONE) to bet on the Broncos.  All Vegas
    wants is for half the plays to be on one team, the other half on the
    other team!!
    
    I'm sorry if this attempt at explaining how the line is influenced is
    an insult to anyone's intelligence.
    
    
    Nelly

    
    Actually the spread is 13 points according to some boob on the tube
    last night.
    
    I would guess that the heavy money for the 49ers has already been laid
    so they would get the lowest point spread. I expect the spread to go to
    at least 15, with the smaller bets being put down this week, then drop
    by maybe two points when the big Denver money is bet at the end of the
    week. 
    
    Look at it this way. Everyone knows that the 49ers were going to be
    huge favorites, and rightfully so. If you were going to bet on Denver
    you would be stupid to put down money in Vegas until the last minute.
    That way you will get the maximum spread.
    
                                                   HOOT
    

                             Gilt-by-association

Good one! T

             Wordplay... (sorta like the foreplay of communications)

Mike JN

    Anybody heard the over-under line for the game?
    
    BoB

    
    Last I saw (Sunday) 47.5
    
    Ric

    The real blowout might come the night before the game. Imagine
    Bourbon street on saturday night. Now that will be a party town.
    Good thing the kickoff is 5PM local. They'll be nursing many
    hangovers.
    
    BoB

    Good one Bob, I would love to be there myself. I think we all 
    would wake up with hangovers and prbably miss the SB. Nah!
    I don't think so. Hell! It just hurts thinking about it. HELP!!
    I need an asprin.
    
    
    GO NINERS!!!!
    
                                                      SLAM-MAN ;^)
    

       I was there 4 years ago. Never slowed down long enough to git
    a hangover. 
                                         Denny

    	Looks like the big gamblers don't have that much faith in the
    49ers.  The Vegas bookies are doing their lowest volume for a Super
    Bowl game.  Caint' say that I am crying for these guys tho'.
    
    				/Don

>    	Looks like the big gamblers don't have that much faith in the
>    49ers.  The Vegas bookies are doing their lowest volume for a Super
>    Bowl game.  Caint' say that I am crying for these guys tho'.
    
 I don't think it's faith in the 49er's in question, I think it's faith
in another blowout S.B. that's got them betting low this time. If the line
goes to 14 or more by friday the Donk money will be rolling in.. You see
the Donk fan's don't have much faith either......

Monty

    
    Read yseterday's Ralph Rotten's column, huh BoB?
    
    For those that didn't get the chance to see it, the Rotten One was in
    top form. He is making excuses already. Apparently he saw some donks
    blind sh!t faced on Bourbon St. the other night and is setting that up
    as the excuse for getting blown out this time. I forget his exact words
    but he said something like, "the truth of the matter is that this Super
    Bowl very well could be decided in the bars on Bourbon St. instead of
    on the carpet of the Superdome." Ha ha ha ha! The only difference I see
    is that they won't get arrested in New Orleans unless they are begging
    for it.
    
                                                   HOOT
    

    
    The game is still played on the field!  The team that plays as a
    team will win.  49ers have no defense and Eitherway will tear them
    up.  The donks D MUST perform well!
    
    When I mentioned the deal about paying the refs...I didn't mean
    that I thought the 49ers were paying the refs.....Take it for what
    it is worth.  Lets think about it, can it really be done?
    
    I saw a game last year...playoffs...it was pregame...I pick up 
    games several hours before broadcast time because I get a direct
    feed, and, on this instance, Marty Shot..... was walking the field
    with a ref...?  then all of a sudden a message pops up on the screen
    that said just the word "WHY", then the word blinked off and on
    with a question mark.  I really wonder...the Browns lost that game
    though.  But, you never know.  I personnally think that there was
    something going on with the officials that do the Denver games.
    
    Maybe when marty writes his book...we will all know a little more.
    
    	Hal
    

    Hal,
    
    Where do you get the idea the 49ers have 'no defense'.  These rantings
    by you and some Donk fans have me rollward.  Obviously none of you
    have ever watched the Niners, or have followed the NFC for say,
    the last decade.  I'm not a Niner fan, but they've had, year in,
    year out, one of the best defenses in the league for most of the
    last decade, INCLUDING this year.  
    
    JD

    
    Monday night.....take a look.....Monday night.  They looked like
    crap!  I couldn't stand to watch the rest of the game after the
    half time.  Yea, they did come back, but, the 49ers defense looked
    like a bunch of kids out there.  Maybe they have gotten better 
    sence then, but, I still think that their defense can be broken!
    That is their weak point and if your going to win the game...beat
    on them and score early.
    
    Hal
    

      Speak for yourself Monty!!  I say the Broncos will pull it off. 
    Spread of 12-15 points is irrelevant.  The game starts at 0-0 and goes
    from there.  I will be laughing on Monday when the excuses start
    pouring in from the Anti's.  You know, the ones like, the refs gave 'em
    the game,  if Montana didn't get hurt,  if Siefert called better plays,
    or any other things that can be thought up.
    
      If I had some extra cash,  I would definately put some on the Broncos
    towards the end of the week.  That way I can rake in the $$$.
    
      49's are goin' down in the dome!!!
    
    		Tim

    
    	I'm sure there will be *just* as many excuses if the Donks lose...
    give me a break.
    
    sean

    Hal,
    
    ONE game, ONE game, and you base that on calling them a weak defense.
    They held the same team to 3 points last week.  THe week before,they
    also were dominant.  And even though on that Monday night the defense
    was 'beaten' the Niners STILL won the game.  Amazing, ain't it?
    
    They don't have a big name defense like the 85 Bears or 86 Giants,
    or even this year's Vikings.  THey simply have a good, solid defense,
    that plays hard.  
    
    JD

    
    One game is all it takes!  If it wasn't for the Rams offense, making
    mistakes, they would have still won that game.  The Evert the 9ers
    played two sundays ago was not the same guy they faced on Monday
    night.  The point is...they can be beaten!  
    
    As far as the Viks D is concerned.....I wouldn't want to be judged
    by how good they were.  I don't think the Viks D was any good at
    all!  The D will win the big games for you in the clutch!   Theirs
    didn't!
    
    Like I said, If Eitherway has as good a game as he played against
    the Browns...they will win, if their Defense can hold Montana on
    his first two drives.
    
    Hal
    

    Hal, you poor misguided soul. No reply from the Niner D "Name-Note",
    huh?? Well? Have you heard of Ronnie Lott? Matt Millen? Come on.
    A fan of football, not just one team, would realize that the 9ers
    have a good defense, just ask Jim Everett and Co. One more thing.
    Be thankful Barnie Kosar isnt playing, cuz he'd get wiped out by
    Ronnie (Hal Who) Lott. :-)
    			Raider_Rich
    

    
    	listen... s.f. *cannot* be compared to the browns (in fact,
    I believe it is illegal in most states to do so). name 1 team denver
    has played this season that can prepare them for sf... (just one)
    when you almost lose to pittsburgh, you gotta think...
    
    sean

    
    re: .236...
    
    	Yea, I have heard of a couple of those guys...but...I still
    think they can be beaten!  Like I said...get out in front first!
    
    re:  .237...
    
    	Name just one team...The Browns!  They play the same type of
    offense except that Bernie can, on most days, throw the long one.
    Bernie was a hurten unit two sundays ago and that is the reason
    the Browns came out on the wrong end of the stick...not to mention
    the officials and the missed catches...
    
    	Now, I'm not being biased about this at all.  Yea maybe the
    9ers did have the best record...yea maybe they are the ones giving
    the points...but, look at who they play.  Giants, Rams, etc...none
    of them really any good at all.  Oh yea, I forgot about the allmighty
    Vikes.  Give me a break.  
    
    	I'll take the Donks in this one.  points or no points.
    
    	Hal, the one who knows how much was paid.
    

    
    Actually Sean, when the Donks loose there will be no excuses, a few
    fans will come in and eat their crow the rest will be too busy to make
    an appearence until next year......
    
    happens all the time....
    
    mike

	SF = Browns?  lemme make that equation a *little* bit more
    compatible:
    	
    
    	SF - Montana - Rice - Craig - Rathman - Taylor - Lott - Flagler
    - Jones - Millen - Burt - Young - Carter - Cofer + misinformed directions
    to the stadium - a coaching staff = Browns
    
    	I'm glad to hear that the Giants and Eagles (to name a few
    mentioned NFC teams) are no good at all...  I wonder what that makes
    Denver since they lost to them at home?  Do Denver fans a favor
    and stop trying to help them out!
    
    sean

    Thanks for the support Hal!  I think you guys are missing his
    point.  He is saying that the niners CAN be beat.  I don't
    necessarily agree with his "no defense" comment, but, I do
    agree that the niners can be beat.  Geez, it's not like they
    have a dynasty or anything...;^).
    
    amf,
    
    Claybone

    Doug Kershaw, Pete Fontaine, a 400 voice choir and several bands
    from La. local colleges will provide half time entertainment.
    
    BoB

    >  He is saying that the niners CAN be beat.
       
    	Isn't this pretty much obvious?  I mean they did lose to the
    Rams and GB this season.  Why belabour the obvious????
    
    sean

    
    Sure the niner can be beat but not by the swiss cheese donks....
    
    mike

    
    I didn't see anything on my religious calendar, but can anyone tell
    me if this Sunday happens to be one of those "Givin' Sundays" that
    they always talk about?
    
    -Dick
    

    
    	yeah, it's a givin' sf is gonna win :)
    
    sean

>    	Name just one team...The Browns!  They play the same type of
>    offense except that Bernie can, on most days, throw the long one.
    
	Wow, what a reach. The 49ers use ALL of their offensive weapons.
Cleveland ignores it's tight end. 49ers use Jones in critical situations.
49ers backs caught over 100 passes - Cleveland backs? - maybe 50
49ers tore up major chunks of yardage on the ground -  The Browns? Hah!
Taylor and Rice also rate an edge over Slaughter and Co.
Also, Joe Montana is the type of QB Bernie dreams about being...

	Jim M

    Don't worry about him Jim, he just wishes the SF organization would
    move to Cleveland so the fans could finally have something to cheer
    about.
    
    sean

Just about Blew my Burgers & Buds(tm) today reading the paper!!!

Mr. Ed says that the Donk's will cover if it goes up another
1.5 to 2 points...... the spread that is...  8^)))))))))))
Lot's of faith that boy has.....

Monty

P.S. Donk Fans.....   Bradshaw is Right!!! think I'll have that printed on 
					   a t-shirt for sunday...

    
    Even though Cleveland is my 2nd favorite team, I still find it
    hilarious anyone would claim Cleveland and the 49ers are equal.
    I don't know what happened to Cleveland's defense in the playoffs
    but they fell apart. Absolutely no pass rush. They gave up close to
    400 yards passing in every playoff game; Kelly, Moon and Elway. And 
    all of those games were close. It's not like Cleveland was way ahead
    and the opposition had to pass to catch up. I don't know how many yards
    passing the Vikings and Rams had against the 49ers but I know it sure
    wasn't 400. And both of those teams got blown out and had to pass to
    try and catch up. One other thing, Hanford Dixon had the nerve to come
    out and say Cleveland would have definately beat San Fran. if they made
    it to the Bowl. Yeah right, they give up close to 400 yards to three
    inconsistent passing teams and they would shut down Montana and Co.
    Ha ha ha.
    
                                                   HOOT
    

       Monty, I guess a Forty Niner fan can't be expected to handle a few
    brews at lunch, and I guess it shows how classless niners' fans are
    that you drink pudwiser,does Bud stand for belly under development???
    The statement Elway made was to point out how absurd the line is for
    a championship game! That required an understanding of dry humor and
    knowledge of the game of football,which you obviously do not possess!!!
    As for Bradshaw,I think his comments were meant to spur Elway on ,not
    put him down.His is after all the only quarterback to own four rings.

      Bradshaw is full of it anyway.  He cheers on the team that is winning
    at a particular time.  And of cousre Denver knocked out his all mighty
    Stellers from the playoffs so he will tend to spew sh!t out of his
    mouth.
    
      As to Elways comments Monty,  Why dont you add the part where Elway
    is toying with the media?  He also said a bunch of other BS like, we
    won't be able to move the ball, and you can't beat gods team, and other
    crappola (;^).
    
      And SF does have a defense,  but they CAN and WILL get burned, just
    like any other team.
    
      Also,  Bernie didn't lose the AFC championship game,  the Broncos
    just totally dominated the clowns!!
    
      Tiom
    

    I have tried to read the papers on this superbowl hype and it has 
    occured to me that both teams are too nice to eachother.  First 
    all of the Broncos are talking about we have a chance and the 9ers
    can be beat.  Then the 9ers say boy those Broncos are sure tough and
    we need to play mistake free football.  
    
    The most outlandish statement I've heard comes from this notesfile.
    Does that Bernie lover dude really think the Browns and 9ers play the
    same kind of football?  Bernie could not HOLD MONTANAS Jock strap!!!!
    At least Elway has been to a superbowl.  When Bernice goes and wins
    3 superbowls then you MIGHT be able to compare him to Montana!!!
    
    Frank 9er 

    
    Bradshaw just mentioned that Elway is too pampered by the fans and the
    coaching staff, and he doesn't have enough mental toughness to win the
    big games.
    
    If memory serves me right, the last time Bradshaw spurned Elway, John
    went out and played great.
    
    The Broncos are obviously relaxed....Linemen sleeping on the turf
    during media day...Elway making sarcastic comments...etc
    
    Lets hope they don't have a problem with getting too much oxygen, and
    maybe they can pull it out at the end!!!
    
    
    Russ

              (Steelers,Steelers,Steelers,????)
    
      Swiss cheese Donks??? The Broncos allowed the fewest points in the
    N.F.L. this season and did not allow a 100 yard rushing game during
    the regular season. Who else in the A.F.C. is more capable of upsetting
    The Niners??? The Broncos are 4 and 0 against th Niners in regular
    season play over the last Decade,Bill Walsh could never beat Denver
    while coach of the 49ers.
    
    P.S.anytime a team has been 10 point underdogs in the Super Bowl,they
    have won!

    re .258
    
    	You have to take what Mikey C. sez with a 10lb bag of salt.
    	He's mad his team doesn't play in the afc  :^)
    
    	Guess what sports fans?  According to the Chinese calender,
    	this is the year of the horse!  Broncos, Mr. Ed...get it?
    
    amf,
    
    Claybone

    
    Good job Monty. You got this Sandy guy all riled up.
    
    
    Steven,
    Bradshaw said Elway is not a great QB. That he is babied too much by
    the fans and the coaches, that he is too inconsistent etc. 
    
    You know, the common knowledge stuff.
    
                                                   HOOT
    

    
    Almost forgot...
    
    Russ,
    Actually the donks were looking for the soft spots to land on.

      Hey Russ,since the Broncos are looking for a soft spot,is your head
    available??

    Is this Sandefur guy going to be here monday after the big loss?
    You are right Walsh never DID beat the Bronco's while he was coach
    of the 9ers.  Did you also know that the 9ers under Siefert have never
    lost to the Bronco's.  Did you know that Joe Collier never lost to the
    9ers as Bronco Defensive coordinator?  Clue in on this:  Collier is not
    the Coordinator any longer and Walsh is not coac any longer.  9ers have
    proven in the past to EAT up aggressive defenses.
    
    Frank 9er
    

    Elway got on Bradshaw's bad side the minute John came out of college and
    refused to sign with the team that drafted him.  Like Bradshaw, Elway
    was selected by a poor team.  Unlike Bradshaw, Elway didn't want to
    stick around to make them better.

	Elway just refused to play football for Frank Cush.....

	I cann't say that I blame him.

		Ed^2

                        re.Stats
       Yes I will be here Monday,and if its a big loss I will have to shrug
    it off. The Niners do match up better man for man than the Broncos and
    nobody is better that Montana at burning the blitz,however he will make
    mistakes if the defense jams his primary and seconday receivers and
    forces him out of sink.The Niners employ a timeing game and if you
    can disrupt the pass routes and give him enough defensive looks he will
    be forced to thow into coverage.This is the key for the Broncos to have
    a shot,force the turnovers and play ball control offense. Yes I am
    aware that Joe is no longer here,but I am sure Denver still has the
    films of those games. Wade Phillips was the defense coordinator for
    the Saints and had the opportunity to see the 9ers twice a year.As for
    Siefert,he's never faced the Broncos as head coach while John Elway
    was in the game.Consider this,Dan Reaves will have appeared in a third
    of all supper bowls,as a player,player coach, and coach how many has
    Siefert been in???

    re. .184 You seem to have all the answers about the 49ers.
    Funny thing is no other head coach in the NFL seems to agree,
    or if they do agree,they have proven you wrong.

      Actually,  I think frisco did beat Collier.  But it was before
    1974,  becuase thats the last time the Broncos lost to them in a
    regular season game.  I do agree that all these stats are meaningless.
    
      Old Bradshaw is trying to get Elway and the Broncos fired up.  He
    also stated that it will be another lopsided loss for Denver.  Of
    course terry isn't to smart, I mean look at his decision to try
    acting..What a flop.
    
      I just heard that 4 of the boys from gay bay were fined $1000 bucks a
    piece for curfew violations.  John taylor is one of them,  the rest are
    no-name players ;^
    
      I hope the Denver "D" doesn't get overaggressive and miss tackles,
    but I don't think we will have to worry about it.  Rice and Taylor will
    be hurtin' units by half time.
    
      		Tim

    Oh-Oh! Donks busted at Pat O'Briens the first night in town. 
    9'ers getting fined for curfew violations! I thought Lott talked
    to all those guys about that kind of stuff.  They loosing their
    hearing?  The shame of it all.
    
    BoB 
    

       I think Bradshaw probably meant everything he said. Why shouldn't
    he, it was all true!
                                     Denny

    RE .251
    
    	OK, I never said that the 49ers and the Browns were equal!
    I said that both teams play about the same.  Short passes.
    As far as the Browns defense goes...something definately went
    wrong durring the playoffs and two games before.  But, you have
    to admit, all of those teams played their best against the Browns.
    Look at the Buffalo game, Kelly had probibly the best game of the
    season, compared to how he was thowing in games prior.  Then
    Mr. Ed has his best performance of the season against the Browns.
    All of these teams know that the Browns are the team to beat and
    come out to play their best.  I think that if Bernie was healthy,
    the Browns could have beaten the Donks and 49ers handily!
    I think the Dawgs were thinking too much durring the playoffs.
    Bud Carson said that they were one play behind/infront of each
    of those teams.
    
    	Hal
    

    
    re.  .255
    
    	The donks totally dominated the game???
    
    	You forgot to say anything about all the dropped passes, missed
    calls, healthly quarterback, ball spotting, etc, etc.  I wouldn't
    say that the donks totally dominated the game at all.  I'd say that
    Mr. Ed had the game of his life against the Browns.  The game would
    have been quite different if some of the bad calls went the Browns
    way not to mention the dropped pass at the two yard line.  
    
    	Remember YOU brought it up.  
    
    	Hal
    

    I didn't see the actual interview (was it an interview?), but could
    Bradshaw have a hidden motive?  Note .256 said the last time Bradshaw
    insulted Elway, Denver played great.
    
    Could it be Bradshaw doesn't want to see the '49ers tie the Steelers
    with four Super Bowls and Montana tie him with four rings?  Bradshaw
    was a great motivator.  Think he's trying the same thing from the booth
    these days?  
    
    	--dan'l

    re.  .256
    
    Mendy baby...
    
    	A healthly Bernie Kosar could match up with anybody in the NFL!
    
    	If he didn't, then why is everybody scard to play the Browns
    and why does everybody like to cut him down.  I'll tell you why...
    Its the same reason I don't like Mr. Ed.   He is a play maker. 
    He can beat you by himself.  If the Browns didn't have Bernie...
    what kind of a team would they be right now?  How many Division
    titles would they have won?  How many times would they have made
    it to the playoffs?  I ask the same question of the 49ers and the
    Donks.  If they didn't have Montana or Mr Ed...where would they
    be?  I don't think they would be in the playoffs.
    
    	Hal
    

    
    Dan'l makes an interesting point about Bradshaw's comment.
    
    as for Mr or Mrs Newness (sandFur?) Seems to me that both the Eagles
    and Giants besides the Steelers have rushed for over 200 yards never
    mind 100 yards on your so called vaunted defense. Denver's corners
    are weak the linebacker mediocre as well as the DL. The safeties
    are superb though but are the type who play off the man, allow him
    the catch and hope to bury him with a big hit and perhaps cause
    a fumble. Niners will take advantage of this.
    
    Personally though I feel Terry is right and Elway doen't have the
    mental toughness it takes. When things are going his way fine but
    let them get down a couple of TD's and look out. He'll do his best
    Bert Jones Imitation.....
    
    And of course Reeves will pull a boner ot two himself. Just like two 
    weeks ago. Here he is with a 10 point lead and he's sending his
    QB out on a gadget pass play. He's very lucky the Brown's safties
    didn't put Elway in the hospital.....
    
    mike
    

    
    Hear a small bleep this morning on NPR that some group is charging
    the NFL drug testing policies as racial bias. They say that three
    QB (W) tested positive for coke over the last few years but the
    teams covered it up......
    
    if it's true my guess is Kelly, Boomer and Elway.........
    
    mike

    
    My guess...
    
    		Bad Boy Bubby Brister
    			Evert from the Rams
    				Possibly Montana, to cover up the pain.
    
    

    I also believe that Bradshaw meant what he said with no "hidden motive"
    behind it......
    
    In my local paper on wednesday nights, they print caller's views
    called-in the night before on a selected subject for the week.  This
    week's subject- Can the Niners win by the 12.5 pt. spread.  The callers
    were about 50-50 on this with just about all saying the Niners will win
    anyway.  The part that cracked me up was one caller who said that the
    Broncos will win outright.  Why?  Because the Niners haven't beaten the
    Broncos in their 3 meetings during the 80's!  Now, where have I
    heard/seen that before?  :-)
    
    Hawk

    re.256 and Bernie not being able to hold Montana's jock
    
    But Bernie called Joe Montana and asked him to send him a dirty one so
    he can make some "Kosar Tea".
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Alright some action in the notes file!!!  By the way Whitehair, Bernie
    is a good quarterback on a good team, But in the words of Bradshaw
    show me some superbowl rings.  If he was so Good then Bernie could
    take the Browns to the 'bowl all by himself right??????
    Lets face facts:  Most football analysts agree that right now Montana
    IS the BEST in the league.  Some even state that perhaps he is the BEST
    ever.  I don't know but it is hard to argue with Montanas success.
    And before you start spewing about Rice and Taylor making him a great
    quarterback remember that Joe had won two superbowl rings and MVP's
    without them.
    
    Frank 9er
      
    

    Bernie's first year...Wins AFC Central division title.
    
    	    second year...Wins AFC Central division title.
    			  Looses championship because of the drive.
    
    	    third year....Wins AFC Central division title.
    			  Looses championship because of the fumble.
    
    	    fourth year...Injured.  but, still makes the playoffs.
    
    	    fifth year....Injured.  but, wins AFC Central division title.
                          Looses championship because of all the stuff
    			  I just memtioned earilier.
    
    	NOW, Tell me what Montana did in his first 5 years in the pros.
    
    	I'm not saying that montana is no good...he is "good" but, what
    I am saying is that I would put a healthly Bernie against him and
    expect Bernie to win.  Bernie has the arm...Montana doesn't!
    
    	
    	Jake - How do you know so much about the "Kosar Tea".  You
    		Must have had some.  You see, Bernie doesn't drink
    		the stuff....He heard that montana had the crabs and
    		wanted to give you some crunchies.  HeHeHe
    
    	Hal
    

    Bradshaw wouldn't have his four SB rings without the likes of
    Swann and Stallworth catching his off-target passes.  They
    wouldn't have one ring without that great Steeler D.  Having
    such a great cast around him put him in the HoF, IMHO.  He's
    just a glory hound looking to liven up NO.  I'm sure John is
    real bummed out about the whole thing!  
    
    Mike C., I heard that report too.  It came from a Wash. D.C.
    paper.  I won't hazard a guess as to who they were.
    
    I didn't think the niners even had a curfew.  The Donks curfew
    started either Tuesday or Wednesday night (11:00 pm).  You'd
    think these guys could control themselves until after the game.
    There's no doubt alcohol affects your performance.  That's not
    an excuse Hoot, that's fack(tm).
    
    amf,
    
    Claybone

    Does anyone know what Bradshaw said about Elway that has everyone 
    ranting and raving? All I saw was a clip on the tube last night
    showing Elway saying "Bradshaw doesn't scare me!" Did Bradshaw cut
    up Elway pretty bad or what?
    
    John

    The fact that a supporting cast and coaching are both so important
    in football shows much of the fallacy of comparing individual players,
    especially at a position such as QB.
    
    Montana's first 5 seasons were 1979-1983.  They did little to nothing
    in 1979 and 1980, won the Super Bowl in 1981, did nothing in 1982
    and I believe made the playoffs in 1983.  His sixth season, 1984,
    was also a Super Bowl win and they've been in the playoffs ever
    since.
    
    John

    Bills nosetackle Fred Smerlas was asked to comment on the upcoming
    Super Bowl matchup since Buffalo had faced both the Broncos and the
    '49ers.  Smerlas said he would take the '49ers.  He said the Bills came
    out flat against Denver and still almost beat them.  He said they came
    out sky high and playing some of their best D of the season against the
    '49ers and they still couldn't contain Montana and company.
    
    Hal, most of Bernie's seasons it only took an 8-8 record to win the AFC
    Central.
    
    P.S.  There is a Bernie Kosar topic.  This is the Super Bowl topic and
    Bernie won't be playing.

    Bradshaw has a point, but this is also the same jerk who said that
    Randall Cunningham is "an athlete, not a quarterback".
    
    It's obvious that Terry has a few brain cells as an announcer, as
    he did as a QB.
    
    Like I said before, I'm no Elway-lover, but John has come faster
    than Bradshaw ever did. If it wasn't for the Steel Curtain, Mr Bradshaw
    wouldn't have gotten those 1st two rings of his .....
    
    DrM

     Who give a SH*T what Bradshaw has to say.  The guy is obviously 
    a moron.  I think Elway handled the situation very well.  I don't
    think it will effect the game one little bit.  Don't kid your selves
    boys....  The Broncos can, and will win this game.  
    
    Big Game
    
    Go Broncos !

    	John Hendry, I use your last name because God only knows how
    many people will be in this note 8^), I remember 1983 well.  The
    Niners just beat the Lions when Murray missed a 40+ yard field goal
    at the end of the game.  They then played the Redskins in the NFC
    Championship game and fell behind 21-0.  The Niners came back, with
    Montana leading the way, and tied the game.  The Skins got a very
    questionable pass interference call to set up the winning field
    goal.  
    
    		/Don_who_had_the_Skins_minus_the_points_and_lost

    Doc,
    
    Bradshaw is right.  Cunningham is an athlete, a fine one. Diverse.
    He's not, IMO, a great quarterback. Sorry Doc.  He can run better
    than any other QB.  He avoids the rush.  But for pure quarterbacking,
    he's way, way down on the list.  He hasn't even been able to lead
    teh Eagles to one victory in the playoffs yet. He gets frustrated
    (see New Orleans game) easily.  He has the tools, but 'greatness'
    is still in his future.
    
    JD

    I know that Kosar is not in the superbowl but I must reply 1 last time
    to Mr. Whitehair.  In Kosar's next 6 years he needs to get to the bowl
    4 times and win at least 3, and be MVP 2 times to be mentioned in the
    same breath as Montana.  I am not saying that Bernie is not good, I am
    saying that right now no one is playing QB better or equal to Montana.
    
    Now for some Superbowl hype.  Has anyone read any wierd superbowl bets
    yet?  I remember from years past people betting on who would score
    first and odds for all kinds of possibilities.
    
    Hey Hoot:  In case you are interested I hear a pep rally for the 
    Broncos is going to be held at the Citadel Mall friday afternoon.
    Maybe you and Monty can wear you Bronco t-shirts and attend the gig.
    I also hear that KOA is promoting a mid-friday afternoon honk your
    horn and turn on your lights for Broncos affair.  Sounds like fun to
    me.  Denver is closing their shopping malls early on sunday so that
    everyone can cheer them broncos on.  hahahahahahaha
    
                                           

Bradshaw is right on the money if you ask me!!  Elway sucks in the "Big
Game".  His career stats are excellent!  Fran Tarkenton had the best
numbers in football, but did you ever see his Superbowl stats. 
Say what you want about Joe Montana, he is the MAN in the BIG Game.
His record speaks for itself!!  Bradshaw also was above and beyond 
in the big GAME.  I play alot of sports, and I feel the same, I 
dont give a damm how I performed during the regular season, 
its the playoffs and the championship game (if my team makes
it that far) that counts.  All the other games dont mean didley.
Bradshaw is very glib, but he speaks the truth, as you and the 
rest will find out.  Why do they call Joe Montana the best BIG
GAME Qb in the business.  That will be answered approximately around
9:30 est when he is once again celebrating another MVP and superbowl
victory.
    
Greg                
                                         

    
    OH!
    I get it!
    
    HOOT doesn't like the Broncos....
    
    
    I thought he was an objective noter, but I find it hard to believe that
    some of these pro-Faider anti-donk types can't find one positive thing
    to say about Denver.
    
    AFC Champs 3 out of the last 4 years takes some talent.
    
    Denver 27
    S.F    21
    
    Russ

    	Cunningham is still young, and in fairness to him he lost his
    best receiver Mike Quick and was without All Pro TE Keith Jackson
    for a good part of the year.  And remember Buddy's new offensive
    approach is doing a good job to stifle Cunningham.  He's certainly
    not the best QB in the league, but he's in there.
    
    				/Don

    This has been the most un-hyped Super Bowl I can remember.  No big
    stories on betting (re: -.1).  No nothin'.  Instead of everyone jumping
    on Bradshaw's back, maybe we should be thanking him for giving us
    something to discuss other than talking about QBs who aren't even
    playing in the big game (and probably never will in Bernie's case).
    
    	--dan'l

    Russ,
    
    Being AFC champs merely means a team is about the 6th or 7th best
    in the NFL.  THe AFC sips discreetly, as evidenced by their fantastic
    showing in the bowl (especially when the Broncos try to play in
    one).  At least the Bengals make the games interesting.
    
    JD

    
    THE HIPE...
    
    	I read this out of the paper yesterday...
    
    	Last year Denver sent 5 or 6 grayhound busses to N.O.
    
    	This year...No busses!  only one 747 that is only half full.
    
    	By the way...how many years did Montana play back-up QB???
    
    	Hal
    

    Maybe "Heidi" should be aired instead........  :-)
    
    Haw'k

                     Re.to.295
       Russ,I guess you are one of the few objective observers of the game.
    Most of these wanabees are just identifying with a strong favorite to
    boost their own frail egos. Hell anybody can jump on the bandwagon of
    a highly favored team and at like fans to belive they are winners. I
    choose to stick to the Broncos though good and bad.Most of these guys
    should put velcro on their caps so they can attach what ever logo is
    winning!     The year of Horse and the start of a new decade of A.F.C.
    dominance. GO BRONCOS.

    
    
   re: Bradshaw
    
    	If you read the whole quote, Bradshaw states that DEFENSE is
    what wins superbowls, not quarterbacks.  
    
    	And once again we here the chants of Bradshaw wasn't this or
    that because of the Steel Curtain.  Hogwash, Bradshaw improved into
    a great QB and became a big game performer.  What great QB didn't
    have great receivers??  He helped his team win 4 superbowl titles
    and was voted MVP in 2 of those games setting passing records in
    both.  So what has Mr. Ed done in the money games??
   	The Steeler teams of the 70's had a unique blend of great players
    that were able to elevate their play even more in the big games.
    Franco always had big games come playoff time and still remains
    the no. 1 rusher in playoff history.  Swan and Stallworth also rose
    to the occasion as did the Steeler D.  Dwight White came out of
    the hospital for superbowl IX to play one of his best games.  And
    lastly, there was Bradshaw, the hick, Little Abner, who also seemed
    to somehow "get a brain" (maybe he went to see the wizard) come
    playoff time.  
    	Talk is cheap.  Bradshaw has 4 world title rings and a bust
    in the Hall of Fame.  I dare say that one obtains that kind of success
    while riding on the backs of others without contributing.
    
    	I believe Bradshaw's comments are basically correct.  Elway
    is not the polished QB that he was at the end of his career.  Elway
    also hasn't played well in the "big" games and we all know that when
    we talk greatness everyone always comes back to the "rings", right??
    	At least Bradshaw had the guts to call it the way he sees it
    and not candy coat his opinion becasue it sounds nice, like a lot
    of other gutless press people.
    
    							bill..g.
    

    reply to .301
    
    I am 31 years old and have been a 49er fan since age *5*.  The 49er's
    have had some pathetic teams prior to the '80's and I remember most
    of them.  Although I am not active in this file I am NOT a 9er
    bandwagon jumper.  They are my *favorite* team and will continue to be
    win lose or draw.  If you check closely, no 9er fan has berated your
    beloved Broncos.  The only nay sayers are Anti-Donk tm fans.
    
    I am hoping that Joe will want to erase all doubt about whether the
    9ers can beat the Broncos.  I am sure that he is tired of hearing that
    he has not beaten the Broncos in x amount of years.
    
    Frank 9er
    

      A QB is usually as good as his team.  People have talked about Elways
    stats in the "big game",  but if you think about it, he did great in
    the 1st half against the Giants,  then the "whole" team fell flat.  If
    your defense sucks,  which they did in the previuos 2 SBs,  then your
    team will lose......  Look at Marinos team.  When you have the opposing
    defense in your face all day long because your defense lets the team
    fall behind so far,  then most likely, the QB will suck.
    
      Montana is an excellent QB,  but so is his o-line.  He has a good "D"
    to balance the team.
    
      This year the Broncos have all of that,  including a excellent
    running back.  When the 9'rs got their rings,  they had Craig as well, 
    who we all know is one of the best all around backs to ever play.
    
      Bernie pukes when it counts, but so does his "whole" team.  And I
    love it when the Broncos play the clowns, because there is nothing to
    be scared of as whitehair would say.
    
    
      Go Broncos!!!!!!!
    
    
    	Broncs	31	49's	24
    
    
    		Tim

    re .301
    
    First, I don't remember seeing you in this note until after teh
    Donkeys made the Super Bowl.
    
    Second, there are two teams in the superbowl, and as a fan, I pick
    one to root for, since the teams I root for didn't make it this
    year (but my two favorite teams are 4-1 in the big game, so they've
    been there, and they've one, and even destroyed teh hapless donkalos)
    
    Donkey fans rile up everyone in here, so don't be surprised that
    folks are siding with the 9ers.  
    
    JD

    re. .287
    The 9ers had already clinhed both the division & home field before
    they played the bills, Young played in place of Montana as he did
    four or five other times during the season. by the way, the 9ers
    were undeafeated with Young at QB.
    

    JD, you took the words right out of my mouth.......
    
    Hey, just because 24 teams are sitting it out doesn't mean that us fans
    of any one of those teams can't pick one of the two remaining, does it? 
    I don't know about some people, but when I watch any game, I pick the
    team that I want to see win, and for whatever simple reason.  And, as
    JD, my buddy :-), said, being an avid SPORTS noter and witnessing the
    "actions" of most (not all) of the Donk fans in here has an effect on
    who I want to win (even more).
    
    Hey, I'm not a life-long Niners fan.  I like them and have followed
    them for many years now.  Because they're winners?  Yeah, probably. 
    They play great football, and it gives me a lot of pleasure to watch
    them, as a fan of football, rather than the dismal play of say, a
    Dallas.  Bandwagon jumper?  Not really, I still have my favorites.  But
    the Niners will be "my team" this Sunday.  Why should I sit there and
    say "I don't give a sh*t who wins because my team's not in it" and,
    "Hey you, bandwagon jumper, you jerk, you're team's playing golf!"
    
    As Clay would say....
    
    amf,
    
    Hawk

       re.305
    Thats right buddy,I didn't know this note existed until this week. I
    have been a fan of the Broncos since before Lou Saban coached them.
    If you have any knowledge of the Broncos,you would know that they 
    had never won more than five games in a season before 76 and yet
    I was a fan long before that. I am Fifth generation Colorado and
    choose to root for the home team! So you have just proven my point
    about velcro hats.Is your favorite team the won with the best record
    at the time??? One other thing,I haven't put down the 49ers or thier
    organization.You and most of the others are to small to give the 
    Broncos their due. Would it kill you and the others to refer to them
    as the Broncos or Denver. I think the fact that they have won the
    conference championships three of the last four years entitles them
    to some respect. 

    re .308
    
    Hey buddy.  I've been a lifelong fan of the New York Giants - the
    team that was horrible through the 60's and 70's, who went 18 years
    between playoff appearances.   So don't give me any of your bunk.
    I happen to like the Raiders also, and have since the 60's.  The
    Giants are my #1 team.  I've never bandwagoned - so I didn't prove
    any point at all.  Did you watch the any of the super bowls that
    the Broncos weren't in?  If you did, did you pull for one team,
    or did you simply stare blank-eyed at the screen, not caring?
    If I watch a sporting event that my team isn't in, I pull for one
    to make the game more interesting to me - it doesn't make me a fan
    of that team, simply a fan of the sport.  I'm originally from New
    York, and even though I've moved 3000 miles away, I'm still a Giants
    fan - always will be, and that's a fack (tm), jack.
    
    JD

re: 252

This is the first chance I'v had to reply....

Where did you come from??? Real men drink Bud... Do you go to a fern bar or
something... As far as football knowledge, I like what the Boston Globe guy
said a few week's ago on ESPN "Denver is the only place where they can put
78,000 people in the stands that know nothing about football" That's very
true, Alot of folk's around here hardly know anything about the 49er's....

re: Last few

How about Mr. Ed's reply to the Bradshaw statement.... 

"He can stick it in his ear"

Woooooo!!! got Terry real scared now.....  I guess that's the best Mr Ed can do


Can't wait till Monday!!!! You see Donk fan's you have to win the big one!!!
Second place jest does not get it.... AS someone once said

Bridesmaids again!!!!! 8^)))))))))))))))

Monty   

    	It started a little late, but it's definitely started.

    >3000 miles away......
    
    JD, you're really LDUCing!  :-)
    
    H'awk

�    re. .287
�    The 9ers had already clinhed both the division & home field before
�    they played the bills, Young played in place of Montana as he did
�    four or five other times during the season. by the way, the 9ers
�    were undeafeated with Young at QB.
    
    You're right.  I forgot about that part.  Smerlas did comment that the
    '49ers were able to take apart the Buffalo D WITHOUT Montana.

    I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't particularly care to be
    referred to as an mf.

    I don't either, Mac.  I put it in sarcastically.  It's been the closing
    remark of a particular noter for many weeks now.  Depending on what
    kind of day I have/had, it can irritate me too.  Don't take my "amf"
    seriously............
    
    Maybe a KG substitute is in order?  :-)
    
    Hawk

    RE. .314
              We got you beat, Buds only $9.84 a case down in Albuq.
    
              As far as the Superbowl is concerned, the Broncos are
              gonna shame the AFC ...... again.

    AMF, didn't they try to make Harleys for a while?
                                     Denny

    You guys slay me.  Fine, I'll quit putting "amf" on the end of
    my notes.  If it offended you, I'm sorry.  I'm also sorry you
    are so thin skinned.  I picked up "amf" from an old fighter
    pilot who said it was a common way of saying bye in the
    military.  I kinda though it, along with WTFO and other terms
    used in here, would be appropriate for such a light hearted
    note.  Since when are we cleaning up our acts?
    
    until we chat again my chums,
    
    Claybone  :^(

      Well being From New Yark I can understand your holier than thou
    attitude. Besides The Giants are no longer from the anus of the
    country,they play in the marshes of Jersey,it seems you like to 
    cheer for teams that have no loyalty to their Citys,Traiders who play
    in L.A. this year,maybe Oakland next year,then again Irwindale
    Raiders?? So you picked the Raiders who have the best winning
    percentage in pro-sports and you say you don't go with who ever is
    winning! You deserve to root for the slimballs from the land of
    fruits and nuts.
    

On this day in 1987, the New York Giants defeated the Denver Donk's
39-20 in super Bowl XXI in the Rose Bowl....

Just thought I'd let everyone know!!!!

Next year: On this day in 1990 the 49er's...  you get my drift!!!!

    No holier than thou attitude on me, buddy.  You're the one who started
    the crap about 5th generation Colorado person, like that made you
    some sort of saint or something.  I root for a team, not the city.
    You ever been to New York state?  Probably not from your ignorant
    remark about the state.  The Raiders, I been rooting for them for
    25+ years - I liked the silver and black uniforms - I was a kid
    when I started rooting for them.  I'd rather they stayed in Oakland,
    but I root for the Raiders, except when playing the Giants.  
    
    I won't get into a name-calling arguement making fun of different
    parts of the country - like you have in .320.
    
    I just guess that you are the perfect fan.  Congrats.
    
    JD

>      Well being From New Yark I can understand your holier than thou
>    attitude. Besides The Giants are no longer from the anus of the
>    country,they play in the marshes of Jersey,it seems you like to 
>    cheer for teams that have no loyalty to their Citys,Traiders who play
>    in L.A. this year,maybe Oakland next year,then again Irwindale
>    Raiders?? So you picked the Raiders who have the best winning
>    percentage in pro-sports and you say you don't go with who ever is
>    winning! You deserve to root for the slimballs from the land of
>    fruits and nuts.

	What a crock. The Raiders didn't have the best winning percentage
of all time when JD started to root for them, Mr. Noname. 

	And they're the New York Football Giants, who trashed your lowly
Broncos :^)

Also, I'm sure you'll crawl back into whatever collapsed mine you crawled out 
of after Sunday:^)

	BTW, what are slimballs? 
	Are they related to the pericular appendage? :^)
	Skinny basketballs?

	Jim M

    Right Jim,  I watched my first Raider game in like 1964.  They were
    on a lot in the AFL days as the late game back east.  They certainly
    didn't have the best record back then.  But in retroscpect, I should
    have stopped rooting for them when they started playing well, so
    I wouldn't be accused of bandwagon jumping.  Besides, I was like
    6 years old - the only wagon jumping I did was on the little
    red one in the front yard....
    
    If I had been a bandwagon jumper, I certainly wouldn't have grown
    up a GIANTS fan in the 60's and 70's, when 1-12-1 records were
    common...
    
    JD

    re .302
    
    	That's right.  Defense wins Super Bowls.  The Steelers
    	wouldn't have won theirs without the outstanding
    	Steel Curtain.  A running back like Franco Harris and
    	an offensive line that rates as one of the best ever
    	helps too.  Bradshaw must assume he was a great QB else
    	he wouldn't be spewing trash from his mouth (his opinion).
    	I say he wouldn't have ring #1 without the supporting
    	cast he had.  That's why Elway doesn't have one yet.  In
    	his first two SB's, the Donks had no running game, and the
    	D was a sieve(sp?).  This year, they have a 1000+ yard RB
    	and a D that led the league in points allowed.  Elway has
    	a much better chance of winning a ring this year than
    	previously.  However, the niners are awesome.  No doubt
    	about it.  It will be tough.
    
    re .308
    
    	Don't get riled with the nicknames given out.  It's all in
    	fun.
    
    re you know who you are
    
    	Please refrain from "all donk fans....." or "donk fans that
    	know who they are...".  Spit it out!  Who are you talking 
    	about?
    
    re Monty
    
    	The only real beer is Miller Genuine Draft!  Drinking Bud is
    	just asking for a case of the hershey squirts!
    
    am..er...uhm....until we chat again chums,
    
    Claybone

    Oh yeah, I bought a case of that stuff made by Coors that's their
    bottom of the barrel (forget what it's called) that has that plastic
    lining inside the can to make it taste like bottled beer for $5.79 the
    other night.  And I'm goin' back tonight to stock up for the Super
    Bowl.  And then I'll probably go back and buy some more on sunday
    afternoon to stock up for the Super Bowl.......
    
    Want me to pick some up for you, REK?  :-)
    
    H'awk

    I, too am a New Yorker. And as you can tell, I'm a Raider fan.
    I'm a young_un and my first recollection as a fan was Franco's
    Immaculate Reception. I also want the 9ers to win BIG! Not cuz I'm
    a bandwagon jumper, but because I like the style of football the
    9ers play. Go 9ers, take it to the Broncos.
    				Raider_Rich
     

	A 12� point spread while from a gamblers point view represents
a gigantic mismatch, on the field does not translate to a blowout.  
Remember the 1980 Super Bowl between the Rams and Steelers?  I do because
I had the Rams and 11 points.  The Steelers won 31-19, but with 5 minutes
left in the game Ferragamo was driving the Rams to what could've been
the winning TD.  But Jack Lambert intercepted an errant pass and the
Steelers drove for the winning (and covering) score.  I liked the 49ers
giving 10, but the line might be 14 Sunday and I hate giving that many
points in a Super Bowl.  I bet the Rams in '80 even though I thought they
couldn't win the game.  It's a mistake I'll never make again.  I think
the Donks can give the 9ers a game, but don't think they'll win.  I'll
wager a small amount on San Francisco, but will be rooting for one of 
the quarters to end with a 7 at the end of the Broncos score and a 0
at the end of the Niners score.  8^)

				/Don

       Hey /Don, where you watching the game? Ever go to The Tankard?
                                    Denny

    Sounds like Hawk's a 'beerwagon' jumper.
                                     Denny

>                       -< wake up and get the religion >-

>    Montana	- Played a key role in breaking the strike.  Showed
>    		  a lack of character and intelligence in breaking 
>    		  solidarity with his less well off union bros.

	So what! Players everywhere broke ranks. The strike was a farce.
    
>    Rice	- Whined after the last Super Bowl that he wasn't getting
>    		  enough attention.  Even trotted out the preposterous
>    		  old line about racial motivation among the press corps.

	Yes, this is regrettable.
    
>    DeBartolo	- Billionaire Ohioan dad bought him the 9ers as a toy.
>    		  Lil' Eddie last year abrograted terms of partnership
>    		  with is fellow NFL owners with incentive provisos.
>     		  Makes no excuse that he's not a savvy businessman,
>    		  just a super rich kid who's gonna spend his spare
>    	 	  dough in million dollar increments to keep his people
>    		  happy, without regard to the best interests of the
>    		  league.               

	Oh, and you hold before us Pat Bowlen, who tried to raise salaries
around the league with his Bruce Smith move, after stating he would never
do such a thing, and actually heading up some NFL Owners committee about this
very thing????
    
>    		  Vince Lombardi surely must spin in his grave when
>    		  he hears of his fellow Italian-American and what he's
>    		  doing to the game for sheer amusement.

	Lombardi would LOVE the Niners
    
>    Jim Burt	- Once seemingly a team guy, Blurt showed just how
>    		  duplicitous and greedy he could be with the switcheroo
>    		  and badmouthing he sank to this summer.

	Burt was forced to retire, because the the Giants' opinion, he 
had an injury, which is it recurred, could render him serious lifelong
harm. Burt disagreed, and signed with the 49ers when Carter went down.
If you saw the 49er-Giants Monday Night game, you could easily see that
while he may have had some bad feelings towards the Giants front office,
it did not extend to Coach Parcells or the players. Sluggo is still a
Giant at heart.
    
>    I could go on, but my point is this: It's easy to be a front-runner,
>    to jump onto the bandwagon, to take the low risk approach.  But, on
>    close examination these 9ers are a somewhat seedy lot, from top
>    to bottom.  At least give the Bronks a fair chance in your heart.
>    They feature a great quarterback who's toiled for years with no
>    pass protection or runners.  They represent hustle, humility, and
>    hope for the little guy. 
    
	Hah! The 49ers seedy? The Broncos have had several run-ins with
the law this year. Pat Bowlen has shown his true character with his
"Chinaman" comments and his remarks insulting New Orleans. The Broncos
featrue a good, talented athelete at QB, and his toiling without
pass protection or runners is similar to many QBs in the NFL every year.

	What a joke :^)

JIm M

>          -< T, I'm rolling, but basically that reply is full of it! >-

 I'll second that!!!!!

   

    I resemble that remark, Denny!
    
    T, I second Rochibaud's remark!
    
    What the hey, I'll even second Jim McFall's reply!
    
    Hawk

    Keystone, Hawk.  Keystone.
    
    T is really pulling the wool over teh Broncos eyes.  HawHawHaw
    
    JD

                            (Halleluijah Baptist John)
    
        Good one John,I am afraid I step on some toes with some good
    natured ribbing.I guess unless you dislike the Broncos your not
    supposed poke fun or joke about other teams. It would be a rather
    boreing topic if we all agreed on the outcome! I am for the record
    putting $50.00 down on the Broncos - 13 and $50.00 even at 7 to one
    odds. If the Broncos don't win,I am sure they will cover the spread.
    In my heart I believe the Broncos are going to win! I know all of
    you 9ers fans and Raider Fans and New York Fans are going to lash
    me heavy for it. Come Monday we will see who has the last laugh!
    
       The perfect Fan from Colo. who may have to crawl into my hole
    
              Named                BRIAN
    
    

    Keystone?? Wouldnt it be great if you-know-who brought beer??
    

    	I have two friends, Bob and Jody who moved to New Orleans in
    the early 70's.  They live about 15 minutes from Bourbon Street
    and have both brought up families there.  They love the place and
    have never even come back up here to visit.  FWIW.
    
    				/Don

    Thanks for the info on Nawlins Steven_boy.  Does DEC have a place down
    there where I cain note for a livin'?  :-)
    
    Hic

Keystone????. You don't really drink that trash do you????
It's like getting douced in reverse...  ;^)


Monty

================================================================================
Note 115.345              The Official Super Bowl Note                345 of 346
34905::SHAUGHNESSY "9er fans have dirty soles"       30 lines  25-JAN-1990 15:30
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    Rochibaud, you've really gone downhill on the analysts food chain
>    with this grovelling you've been up to lately.  The 9ers might prove

	Grovelling?  Me?  Surely you've misinterpreted my "Heel Zeal".
But being the righteous person that I am I forgives ya', even tho' ya'
spellt my name wrong again.    

>    to be a great team (we'll see Sunday), but they're primadonnas and
>    that fits their context now doesn't it?  Why is it YOU find them
>    so attractive, huh?

	I think it's the manly jackets that they sell in the souvenier
stores.  Didja know thats you gotta pay extra for a 49er jacket?  I think
it because the material is made from "real animal" skins.  Raw and savage.
Kinda of like the 49ers eh T?

				/Don   

    Clay,
    
     Don't worry about "The Few, The Proud, The Righteous" in
    ::SPORTS.  Most of those guys think it's great to use those
    francy little acronyms until they are offended by something 
    you say or something you say hit a little to close to home.
    Just blow `em off, They ain't worth the trouble of getting
    worked up over.  Remember, Clay......  This is only a 
    Kinder&Gentler notes file when "SOME" of the folks take it 
    apon themselves to become cops.  I guess it's like anything
    else.  The Pro Lifers think they can impose their will on the
    folks that think that women have a right to do with their bodys
    as they please.  The Moral "Majority" thinks they have the right 
    to tell everyone they can't get a pron mag. in a 7-11.  Gun
    control people think they have the right to tell us we can't
    own a gun. The state thinks it has the right to make me wear
    a seatbelt.  And some people think they have the right to 
    not only decide what you mean by "AMF" but also to tell you 
    you can't use it.   I really can't wait till the SB is over.
    If the Donks win, I'll come in a sling some stuff at the 
    Anti-Donks and leave.  If they lose, I'll eat my CROW and do the
    same.  This use to be a fun place to note but once again the
    minority is trying to impose it's beliefs on the majority.
    So don't worry about the "Jerry Farwells in this file,  They'll
    dry up and blow away, just like Jerry and the rest of those
    TV preacers did.
    
    
    AMF   ("Another Monday, Folks")
    
    Big Game

    Awe, c'mon Jack, stop being so freakin serious, willya?  No one,
    including me, said not to use "amf" anymore, just that it was kind of
    irritating (at times, having a bad day, etc.).  So, lighten up, and
    let's go drink some rotten, cheap beer, ok?  I know that'll make me
    feel great right now!  In fack, that's exackaly what I'm gonna do!
    
    AMF  (Another one, My Friend!)
          ^            ^  ^
    
    Hawk

    Mr. T
    
    Why is it that the 9ers are primadonnas?  And pray tell me how does
    that fit their context?  
    
    Lets also determine one thing:  This game on sunday, win lose or draw
    has nothing to do with the 9ers greatness.  As you have so eloquently
    described in another note that only championships are the measuring
    stick of greatness, then perhaps we should take a look at *3* count em
    *3* World Championships for the 9ers in the 80's.  This game Sunday
    might prove either the coming out for the Broncos or a continuation of
    the team of the 80's.  One thing that is certain is that the 9ers are
    great and that my friend is NOW.
    

    re .351
    
    Zzzzzzzzzzzzz ......

    Sarge,
    	
    	I wasn't implicating you.  See what happens when you don't
    	name names!
    
    	Here's a little hint on amf....adios m_____ f_____(s)
    
    Claybone

    
    Steven,
    Bock beer coming from the bottom of the barrel is one of those beer
    myths, it aint true. Oh yeah, DCC:BEER could probably tell you more.

    Re: JD
    
     You are exactly correct in the statement "If you run and
    hide, Big Game, You're doing exactly what THEY want....  ect"
    The thing is, I always leave after Foot-A-Ball season is over. 
    The only difference between this year and many others is, I won't
    be so sad to see the season go.  I really am a "Let Freedon Ring"
    kinda guy that thinks that no one should be allowed to control
    anothers life or actions unless it is in someway hurting another.
    Where society should draw the line, I don't know, but I do know where I
    draw mine.  I guess I still have a case of the A$$ from the little
    "Junk_Note_Gate"(tm) earlier this season.  Anyway,  I really wasn't
    refering to "YOU" specficly.......  The Moral Minority know who
    they are.  Besides, what the hell do I know....  After all, it is
    against dec policy to put any remarks of poor taste in a notes file
    so this really is a lose, lose situation.  It's just that this really
    used to be a place to come and shread some buddies with junk notes 
    slam a few people in jest and have an all around good time.  I mean
    look,  I said a few pretty nasty things to Mr. WhiteDog Doo Doo for
    brains and he didn't get offended. Even though he is a Clowns fan,
    I gotta give him credit....  He and a few others (JaKe Comes to mind)
    are good ole fashioned ::SPORTS noters. I guess we are a dying breed.
    
    Big Game
    
    
    
    
     The Broncos will win this game 31 to 27...  I had a dream about it
    twice this week and when that happens I always win big at the Dogs.
    John will throw for over 500 yards, 4 TDs, 0 Interceptions and rush
    for 65 yards.
    
     Go Broncos
    
     Pound the Girly Mon <(Insert another word that rymes with day and make
    it plural, here) from the bay.
    
    John Elway is the best QB to ever play the game...
    

    Jack, you musta still been asleep when you said Elway was the greatest!
    :*)
    
    Anyway, I must stand up for my buddy Jack.  Even though he's not
    too knowledgable about football, as evidenced by his adoration of
    the Donks, he is a true noter whose comments I really enjoy.  And,
    he basically notes during football season, so he can't be accused
    of disappearing every year when the Donks blow the big one!!  :*)
    He fades away shortly after the SB, regardless of who won or lost.
    
    Apparently, he's one of those special guys who must dedicate his
    time to getting raises for his fellow workers.  :*) :*)
    
    Jack, even though you're usually full of sh*t, I love ya, buddy!
    But, I do wish you could get more action out of Hoot, lately.  He's
    been kinda quiet, relatively speaking.  

    Lee

    	Hey Lee, Big Game is a phony.  He promised me a date with Mrs.
    Elway and never delivered!
    
    				/Don

    
    Enough with all that other stuff...today is another day and we
    can put yesterday behind us...
    
    Except...So what is the deal with the QB's taking drugs???
    	I heard that Montana is one of the three, who are the
    	other two???  
    
    Live from New Orleans...Direct...I picked up a "direct" feed
    	from N.O. last night at about 9pm.  I think it was for
    	a S.F. TV station.  Anyway, they were getting ready to
    	interview a 49er player...I think it was Bert...He played
    	for the Giants last year???  The guy doing the interview
    	was telling Bert about what he was going to talk about...
    	He mentioned that Montana was going to say something about
    	the drug alligations (which was on tape).  Bert goes, your
    	not going to ask me about that are you?  What did he say anyway?
    	Then he just goes on about how he went to a bar on Monday
    	and just stayed for 15 minutes because it was so crazy. (Sure)
    	He said that he played cards sence and won 1000.00 one night
    	and lost another 1000.00 the next.  (must be nice to play card
    	and not mind loosing 1000.00).  The the actual interview...
    	boreing!  You should have seen the babes in the background...
    	OoooLaLa.
    
    	Hal
    

    There were no names mentioned.  It's all speculation, just like those
    of you naming names in replies.  Tag-glee-a-boo insists that the
    Washington paper that published the story name the QBs and its sources
    or else they're in deep doo-doo.  He's a lawyer.  Bet they're
    scared...ooh-ah.
    
    	--dan'l

    	SportsCenter last night mentioned Joe Montana as being one of
    the covered up for QB's.  This former employee also said that the
    NFL had a hit list of players they wanted tested and wanted tested
    positive.  Don't know how much truth there is to it, but it does
    make you think.
    
    				/Don

	Gooday

		A few notes back someone ask about 'unusual odds' betting on
the Superbowl.

		In England they are offering the following odds.

	Overall winners	:-

			49ers	1 to 5
			Broncos 7 to 2

	Winning points margin :-

			49ers	      Broncos

	1-6 points	5 to 1		5 to 1

	7-12 		3 to 1		10 to 1

	13-18		10 to 3		22 to 1

	19-24		6 to 1		66 to 1

	25-30		10 to 1		100 to 1

	over 31		14 to 1		150 to 1

	Scorer of first touchdown :-	

        Rice		4 to 1		Mobley		33 to 1
        Taylor		9 to 2          Sewell		40
	Craig		6 to 1          Flagler		50
	Johnson		10 to 1         Henderson	50
	Humphrey	12 to 1         Kay		50
	Jones		14 to 1         Lott		50
	Rathman		14 to 1         Williams 	50
	Bratton		16 to 1         Wilson		50
	Elway		20 to 1         Young		50
	Jackson		20 
	Nattiel		20
	Montana		25		No touchdown	100 to 1
	Sherrard	25
	Winder		25
	Young		25
	
	
	First scoring play of game:-

				49's		Broncos

		Field goal	3 to 1          7 to 2

		Touchdown pass	3 to 1		11 to 2

		Touchdown run	5 to 1		9 to 1
		
		Touchdown other	16 to 1		33 to 1

		Safety		150 to 1	150 to 1

	
	Total points:-

	2-18		66 to 1
	
	19-24		20 to 1

	25-30		10 to 1

	31-36		6 to 1

	37-42		9 to 2

	43-48		7 to 2

	49-54		4 to 1

	55-60		5 to 1
		
	61-66		8 to 1

	67 +		16 to 1.



		Any of you football / betting experts out there see any over
priced bets ?

		ie. ones where the odds look generously high ! (so that I might
make a quick buck !!)

			Go Broncos ! 

				John T.

    Actually Steven, Cofer's been a very good, consistent kicker.  Those 2
    misses I'd consider a fluke- had a bad day.  If he'd missed a 31 yarder
    in 1 game, then the 32 yarder in the next, then there'd be cause to
    worry.  Treadwell?  I don't know Treadwell.  :-)
    
    Hawk

    	Cofer.  Treadwell.  There, I mentioned them.
    
    				/Don

                        (Re.355)
       Good point,Denver and SanFrancisco have had a good many games
    decided by field goals this year.If the Broncos can stay within 10 by
    the half the game could very well come down to the Kickers. If you look
    at the 4 games these two have played,they have all been very close.
    
    Broncos          27
    
    Niners           24
    
    Brian (a.k.a. Colorado fan with no name)

      I think I'm gonna puke.  All this BS..  Well heres some more,
    
     The SB might be called off due to Montana snortin' all the white
    lines...Many;^^^
    
    
    TGif...Go Broncos...Shut the anti's up.
    
    		Tim

    Re: leE..
    
     Thanks for the support....  I don't want anyone to 
    think that I'm running and hiding if the Broncos should 
    happen to lose the SB.  They won't lose though.  I had a dream
    that they win by four pts...  then this guy from Vegas picks
    them not only to cover the spread but to win outright by 4 pts.
    this guy has only missed 3 picks out of all the SB's in history.
    I tell ya, it's destiny.
    
    GO BRONCOS      GO BRONCOS      GO BRONCOS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Re: /Don
    
     I am not a phony.....  You haven't made it out this way so I
    could set you up.  As a matter of fact, Mrs. Elway says that 
    she will sleep with anyone and everyone that roots for the Broncos.
    So /Don....   if you root for the Donks you can have a peice of
    Jannet Elway for free.  course it might be slopy 34,222nd's but
    what the hell !!   ;^)
    
    Big Game
    
    
    
    GO BRONCOS      GO BRONCOS      GO BRONCOS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    GO BRONCOS      GO BRONCOS      GO BRONCOS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    GO BRONCOS      GO BRONCOS      GO BRONCOS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    GO BRONCOS      GO BRONCOS      GO BRONCOS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    GO BRONCOS      GO BRONCOS      GO BRONCOS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    GO BRONCOS      GO BRONCOS      GO BRONCOS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    GO BRONCOS      GO BRONCOS      GO BRONCOS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    GO BRONCOS      GO BRONCOS      GO BRONCOS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    GO BRONCOS      GO BRONCOS      GO BRONCOS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    GO BRONCOS      GO BRONCOS      GO BRONCOS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    

    
    	ok, just a stat...the number 12...on super bowl quarterbacks...
    
    	How many times have a quaterback with the number 12 won the
    super bowl???
    
    
    	everytime but twice...and the two times they lost...was to 
    another quarterback who was wearing the number 12!

    
    	another one....
    
    	what team had the best season record before entering the SB???
    
    	Miami!
    
    

       Looks like Big Game has Form Feed syndrome, he's obviously a
    Browns fan now!
                                       Denny

           Re. 369
    Excellent Tim Excellent,you ,Russ,and Mr.T have got it together! The
    Niner's are a good team,but this is the year for the Broncos. Most of
    these guys don't have to worry come Monday though,they'll just pull
    out a new patch and stick it on!!! Do you suppose they have a Denver
    D.just in case??? Or will they immediately put their Lakers patch on,
    since they beat the Pistons. Hurry guys, Hurry, the Bandwangons headed
    for L.A., just pulled out.
    
    Bronco B.(a.k.a.Brian the perfect fan )

    RE. .370
              You've got to be kidding, who in there right mind
         would want a piece of Mrs. Elway? She's got more of a 
         horse face than John does.  Blech.. yech.. ptooie..spit..
         ..gag..puke........

    Well, it's time to check out for the weekend.  
    
    Soooo, in closing, I'll predict a 49'er win, with a margin of 10
    points.
    
    But, more importantly, I wish all the players well.  I'd hate to
    see any major injuries, like last year.  
    
    Lee

    I believe cofer led the league in points this year
    and last.

    re .377:
    
    >	But, more importantly, I wish all the players well.  I'd hate to
    >	see any major injuries, like last year.  
    
    Amen to that Lee!
    
    I'll say SF 37, Denver 21.  And Bud Light will knock off Budweiser in
    "Bud Bowl II", 30-27.
    
    
    py

                        Mr.T I pity the Fools who try and reply
    
      I agree with you completly,I guess alot of the N.F.C. guys are like
    that. Joe (Theesman not Thiesman) dumped his wife and three Kids after
    he made it big,remeber the old Kodak commercials? I guess everyone is
    burnt out on all the hype,let get on with it.
    
    Go Broncos

    
    Awhile back someone said that this is the year of the Horse, true.
    1978 was also the year of the Horse. The donks got slaughtered in that
    Bowl also by Dallas. That was the game that Morton set a record that
    will be very hard to beat, he passed for only 35 total yards.

    If I was Dan....
    
    - Play bump and run.  They have to throw their timing patterns off!
      If they sit back and wait for the receivers, Joe will cut them to
      shreds.
    
    - Cover the tight end.  The D has been susceptible to getting beat
      by the tight end this year.  Nobody has mentioned SF's TE this
      year, but he's been hot lately.
    
    - Get pressure on Montana.  Make him throw off balance.  His arm
      is not that strong.
    
    - The D line needs to stuff the run.  The LB's will have enough
      to worry about helping out on pass coverage.
    
    - Sir Biff needs to have a stellar day.  He needs to keep his
      cool and not throw into coverage.
    
    - Establish a descent running game.
    
    - Have the calls go their way....;^)
    
    	If this game becomes a track meet, Denver can hang it up.  They
    	need to play ball control and keep His Majesty off the field.
        Denver to win by 3 on a late field goal.........
    
    Claybone

    Yeah, but Hoot, cowboys ride horses.  That's why they won.  You
    know, paper smothers rock, scissors cut paper....  A 49'er just
    rides an elelvator down, down, down into some black pit of a
    mine.  They uses horses to carry the gold!  ;^)
    
    Claybone

    T, are you gonna get down on yer knees and bark for us come Monday
    morning?  

    re: .380
    
    If that's true about what he did to his 1st wife, that lowers my
    opinion of Montana even more. (I'll never do that to my first wife :-))
    I already had a knock against him for shunning the people who were his
    first fans.  In the early 80's, even before he was Joe the Super Bowl
    machine, he continually refused to return home to Monongahela, PA and
    be grand marshal of parades and things like that.  The people in the
    Ringold school district where Montana played high school ball got so
    disgusted with his "no, I'm better than yunz all now" attitude, they
    just stopped asking.   The old fans were deeply hurt.
    
    But just because Joe is a jerk, I still have to say he IS the best QB
    in the NFL today. 
    
    	--dan'l

    Well,
    
     This will probably be my lasted(tm) reply till after the 
    Broncos have totaly beat the shit out of the Niners and 
    are Superbowl Champions. I really think that John has come
    along way and has the maturity to win it all.  The Niners 
    are great, and that my friends will make this victory very,
    very, sweet.  Look for the Donks to play Man to Man Bump &
    Run coverage. Put together a strong running game up front
    and keep it going all day long.  The Key will be that FACK(tm)
    that John will come out blazing and prove that he is the nexted(tm)
    great QB of the NFL.  Look for 4 Elway TD's and over 500 yards
    of passing offense.  The Broncos can and will dominate this
    game.  Go Broncos !!  We're all pulling for ya !!!!
    
    GO BRONCOS  !!
    
    
    GO BRONCOS  !!!
    
    
    GO BRONCOS  !!!!
    
    
    Big Game

    
    T,
    Morton's 35 total passing yards is a fact, it's the record low for
    Super Bowls. Denver was close in the 1st half but got totally blown out
    in the 2nd half. Morton threw 4 ints. Dallas was also sloppy with 6
    turnovers, the record, but still blew them out.
    
    
    Jack,
    I guess this is the last we will ever hear from you, eh? If you really
    are gone until the donks crush the 49ers.
    
                                                   HOOT
    

    Jam It Uncle HOOTSIE......   I can't wait to visit your office
    come Monday morning....   The Donks will win this game and you
    and the Parrot will have Donks fans on all sides.   I just can't 
    wait....  I just got this feeling.....
    
    Big Game

    
>    Don't you wanna be on the side of a_historical sea change?  That
>    you won't risk sullying yourself rooting for a scab with a cruel
>    idea of family and anniversary gifts is strictly a bonus!
    
 Well T, I grew up with Joe when I was young and consider him a friend even
 thou I have not spoken with him in about 10 years.... He was a good
kid when we played baseball and his folks are still good friends of the
family.... I knew his first wife a she was a class act BITC*....

Monty

     You're Full of Shit, Monty.....   You really are reaching !
    
    Big Game

Sorry Big Game but it's true... I grew up in a town right next to Monghela(sp)
a place called Charleroi and played baseball with him in the 60's....

    The first Bronco bowl, they were lucky to be in it at the half.
    There were something like 10 fumbles in the game. Everyone went
    to Dallas.  As far back as I can recall Denver has never had so
    musch as a small break in any bowl.  Not a key fumble, not a 
    big int, not a clouded judgement call by the officials. This is
    not reaching and this is not to say they will win on it. The 
    Broncos deserve a break.  Look for them to make one happen. Finally!
    
    BoB

    re. .380
    I dont see the connection between montana's personal life and football,
    as if it's any of your business.I'll also bet your sqeaky clean???

    Denver can win if :
    
    Humphries and crew can rush for at least 135+ yards.
    
    Elway throws one pick - max. - in the first half.
    
    The Donks blast the Niners WR's no matter what.
    
    The Donks get good internal pressure on the Niners (up the middle
    in Joe Montana's face).
    
    Denver must take away the Niners running game.
    
    Niner receivers must get shut down after the catch.
    
    And a injury to the Niners won't hurt denver's chances.
    
    However, it won't happen.
    
    SF  7 7  7 10 6 | 37
    Den 3 10 7  7 0 | 31
    
    That's my most optimistic outcome ....
    
    realistically,
    
    SF  3 14 7 10 | 34
    Den 7  3 0 14 | 24
    
    DrM

    re: .402: ....6:30 p.m. (AT) 4th quarter and Denver is 0 for 7.  Guess
        that accounts for the 40 point difference.  Sure thought the game would
        be closer.   Will the Broncos have any fan support after this
        debacle ??  Gotta be frustrating......
    
    		Skin's in '91...

    How embarrassing.  S.F. has to be disappointed that no competiton
    showed up.  Sort of tarnishes the victory.
    
    		Steelers in '91...

    Its official Bud beat Bud lite 36-34
    Oh Yeah, 49ers 55- Donks 10  ANd I thought the Pats got killed in
    86....
    
                REK

< Note 115.405 by NRADM::KING "FUR...the look that KILLS..." >


    Its official Bud beat Bud lite 36-34
    Oh Yeah, 49ers 55- Donks 10  ANd I thought the Pats got killed in
    86....
    
                REK

    Ya gotta love it,
     Every time the Donks appear in a Superbowl they set new records
    for atrociousness,
    
                              Morrie.

    Yup. 15 tons of raw crow for Cactus Jack & Co.
    
    "Atrociousness" is right. As for Elway - he gets the MOP award
    Most Overrated Player.
    
    Don H.
    

    The Pats don't hold the record anymore......

    
    	[Note new p_n.]
    
    	Someone in SOAPBOX said that the Broncos would not only
    	cover the spread (which was 11 or 14 or so) but that they
    	would win outright.
    
    	Hee hee ... haa haa ... I hope he's thinking of seeking
    	help for his addiction to whatever he's taking.
    
    							Shawn L.
    

    
    	Montana set all kinds of records yesterday ... 8 or so,
    	I think.
    
    	5 TD passes, passes attempted, completed [he's NEVER
    	thrown an INT in a Super Bowl!!].
    
    							Shawn L.
    

    
    	It was a game untill the fumble in the first quarter...
    
    	Cleveland would have given them a better game!!!  and
    	possibly could have won the contest.
    
    	

    If Reeves is responsible for getting his team, and QB, geared-up
    and ready, then he should be fired.  What an absolutely terrible
    exhibit the Donks put on.  I can't believe how badly they played.
    While I've never liked them, I have to say that they are a better
    team that what they showed yesterday.  But, they are also going
    to be known as the biggest chokers in NFL history.
    
    Which reminds me, here again is another lopsided SB game.  This
    is incredible, blow-outs continue to be recorded in the game which
    is supposed to match the best of each conference.  And, in this
    game, the two teams with the best records for the year.
    
    I still think that Elway is a better QB than many others, but he
    sure needs a better supporting cast around him.  Sure, he makes
    mistakes big time, but he just doesn't have the overall team that
    Montana has.  
    
    This should take nothing away from Montana, the guy is the coolest
    when under pressure for a big game.  The pressure was there, all
    the hype about how they would blow out the Donks.  But, they did,
    even more so than most "experts" felt they would.  Talk about covering
    the spread!
    
    Anyway, congrats to the 49'er fans for a great championship, and
    congrats to the Donk fans for a fine season overall.
    
    Lee

    
�   Which reminds me, here again is another lopsided SB game.

    Again?  Let's give a little credit where its due.  The Bengals
    gave this "team of the decade" a good fight in both Super Bowls
    they played against them.  Couldn't ask for better games than
    those two, imo.
    
SEAN/BEER=LABATTS

    
    Niners: Congrats!
    
    Donks:  Ouch!
    
    Is it baseball season yet?
    
    -Dick
    

Lambs vs Wolves
Christians vs Lions
Poland vs Germany
Netherlands vs Germany
Czechoslavakia vs Germany
France vs Germany    
Egypt vs Israel
Denver vs San Francisco

>    Again?  Let's give a little credit where its due.  The Bengals
>    gave this "team of the decade" a good fight in both Super Bowls
>    they played against them.  Couldn't ask for better games than
>    those two, imo.
    
     Bengals gave the 49'ers an excellent game last year, but in their
     first SB meeting, the 49'ers dominated the first three quarters, and
     only some scores very late in the game brought Cincinnati close.

     Meanwhile, all those suggesting someone else might have made the
     game close against SF ought to look at the playoff results against
     the Vikings and Rams.  Nobody had a chance to beat SF this year in
     the post-season.

    Was there really any doubt as to the outcome after only the very first
    offensive series for each team?  Humphrey's fumble is something
    everyone can point to as "the turning point".  I saw it as being "over"
    well before that.
    
    Actually, I found the game very entertaining, blowout and all.  I
    would've been extremely disappointed if the Niners had only scored 1 td
    or a field goal in the 2nd half while just running down the clock. 
    Instead, they continued the "clinic" for the pleasure of the football
    fans.  Hey, this game had great offense and great defense, all by one
    team of course.  I don't think it was boring at all.
    
    But, I do maintain that the Broncos' defeatist attitude, the
    so-called looseness, really hurt them.  They'd have been much better
    off coming in totally hyped and psyched like their last SB.  Instead,
    they act like a bunch of zombies telling everyone that they're supposed
    to lose anyway so they're just going to go out there and have fun. 
    Well, was that really fun for them?  This is what disappoints me the
    most about this SB.  Not that I think they still could've won with a
    totally positive attitude, but a better showing would've been probable.
    
    And, not to be disrespectful to the Bronco faithful, but I've got to do
    this for T, in particular, who came in here slinging a lot of shit
    about Montana and his general bull about how great Elway and the
    Broncos are - HAHAHAHAHAHAHA(tm).  :-)
    
    Hawk

    
    	The score should have been 55-3.  That pass interference
    call/no interception was BULL!!!  :)
    	What else can be said... Montana was fantastic, Rice was amazing,
    the defense was tenacious.  Congratulations SF!!!!!!
    
    sean

    
    
    "I think the turning point was the coin flip."
    				John Madden
    
    

    Re. .420 --
    
    Agreed on the pass interference call.  The Niners got jobbed. ;)
    
    Laker_Ken

    
    Nice call Walt, don't believe I read anyone but you predict a repeat
    at the start of the season. 
    
    Ditto for Steve J. who told me the margin was going to be 45 last
    friday.
    
    Cofer you stink sonfa%&VK( and &*()*&^^&^. I had 4-3 and the missed
    extra point cost me 200....
    
    Well guys what do think of Bradshaw's comment now? He was right on the
    money. I'll bet you guys really thought you had a chance too after
    Ditka picked them...
    
    hahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahhahahahaaaaaaa
    
    mike

Something tells me Jill's workload will increase dramatically 
today :-)

daryll

      Gongrats to the 49'rs and their "real" fans!!!  Denver didn't even
    show up, and frisco didn't turn back.  Well I'm off to cafe to get some
    wangs, so pass the salt.
    
    		Tim

Best moment for me in the game was the Nike "Announcers" commercial
where they cut to a guy wearing a Nixon mask, then back to Tommy
Heisohn who says "No the 'other' Dick!"... and then bug-eyed Laker-lover
Dick Stockton appears. 

The other Dick.  How true.

    
    	I had 3-0, and the 49ER's TD at :30 left in the 1st half
    	cost me $100!!
    
    							Shawn L.
    

     Well, The Donks really put on a lesson in futility yesterday.
    Elway really choked and the rest of the team followed his lead.
    I'm sorry to see the Broncos get beat so bad but I guess if you're
    gonna get blown out it might as well be by the best.  I can't see
    another team in the league that would'net have gotten destroyed 
    on the same level as the Donks.  The 49er's are the BEST team 
    in Foot-A-Ball and quite possibly the best team ever.  Montana
    just don't make mistakes in big games. I couldn't beleive the stat
    that he's never thrown a INT. in a super bowl.  Congrats Sanfransico,
    you deserve the ring.  I just hope that this doesn't destroy the
    Broncos....  I know I felt pretty bad after the game yesterday.
    I can only inagin how Elway & Co. feel.   It's been a great season
    for the Broncos and I hope we're back in the Bowl nexted year.
    Yea, Yea,  I'm eating crow.....  MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH !!!!!!
    Gawd it tastes like SHIT!!!   

        I propose the notion that we officially change the name of the
    Denver Broncos to the Denver Crows. Hee, hee ,hee.
                                                       Carlos
                       
    

 Well, extra large congrats to all fans of the World Champion Forty-Niners!!!

                               Niners = Awesome

                           Broncos =  Chopped Liver

As a Donk fan, I found this game a relatively painful experience, at least for
the first Half. After the first couple of series of the 3rd quarter, I turned
the channel and watched Star Trek. Very exciting ( no sense in being
masochistic about this crap!).

The Donks did none of the things they needed to do to have a chance of winning.
If Reeves won't follow my damned game plans, I don't know what the hell *I'M*
supposed to do. Elway was just pitiful with his early passing attempts, and
when he DID get the ball to someone, they dropped it.

All in all it was a total team effort and the Bronco sipped through a straw.
.... Maybe I should say inhaled hugely through a garden hose..... The hell with
kinder and gentler.... The Donks sucked BIG time.

I can identify with Shawn.... I had two sets of numbers in pools:

SF 4 Den 3      and    SF 1 Den 0

When the first quarter ended and S.F. didn't convert that PAT to make it 14-3 I
was really ticked..... $100 down the tubes. Luckily, they managed to finish up
the 3rd quarter at 41-10, so I still made a $100 (every cloud has a green
lining Dewds, at least for somebody).

As the other 26 teams have already said......"NEXTED YEAR!!!!"

Mike JN

    Re:  pass Interference - not that it matter, but the call was correct,
    and Madden was wrong with his call on it.  The Frisco defender never
    looked back at the ball, and made contact before the ball got there
    - that's pass inteference, boys, and it doesn't matter how the play
    turns out.  Madden also blew the 'fumble' call on the niners - he
    said the whistle must've blown, when it looked on replays that the
    ground caused the fumble.
    
    Re:  The Broncos - don't they know how to make adjustments?  The
    Skins killed them in 87 with the same play over and over, and the
    Niners did the same to them.  Who was it that was talking about
    how the Bronco's would intimidate the Niners?  Or that the Niners
    had no defense?   Why did the Broncos come out slinging?  Why all
    the shovel passes?  Why change their game plan  around right from
    the start???   Disgusting performance. 
    
    JD

�    Madden also blew the 'fumble' call on the niners - he
�    said the whistle must've blown, when it looked on replays that the
�    ground caused the fumble.
    
    I don't think Madden blew that one, JD.  The ref did say something into
    his microphone after the play.  I didn't catch it, but it might have
    been about a whistle having blown.

    
    Hey ya gotta admit the commercials yesterday were great. The best one 
    was the the first doritos commercial with Jay Leno. The one were he
    gets letters from fans complaining about football players getting paid
    this and that..
    
    "Hey do you know how much I get payed for making these commercials and
    I don't even have to get my head kicked in"....
    
    
    hahaha
    
    mike

    Mac,
    
    Oh, I didn't hear that.  It did look like the ground caused it,
    but that didn't matter either.
    
    JD

    Mr. Whitehair you need seious help,how can you call yourself a 
    sportsfan with an assinine statement like Cleveland would've
    gave em a better game.....get a life kid Denver pissed on them
    if Clev was there yesterday it would've been 84-0.
    Its high time you Cleveland fans look at reality.
    
    
    Tom

    Another thing that made this game "entertaining" for me was having
    Madden and Summerall announcing it.  I especially loved Madden's
    continuation (from the 49er-Rams game) of Roger Craig's "running out of
    his socks" thing.  Only, because of his lost weight (9 lbs. due to the
    flu earlier in the week) and the way he was already running out of his
    socks in the 1st quarter, Madden went on about how he'll probably run
    out of his jersey, and maybe even out of his pants!  The guy's a riot!
    
    These 2 should be the "designated announcers" for the remaining SB's of
    this decade, and maybe even longer......
    
    Hawk

    re.436
    Don't be too hard on him, he can't help it.  It stems from the toxic
    waste in the air around Clevescum putting everyone there (or from
    there) in a constant Hallucinogenic(sp?) state.  Remember, Clevescum IS
    the world's only inhabited raw sewage dump!!!!!!!
    
    
    JaKe
    

Well once again we all see how the Donk's Sip big time...
On the radio this morn the fans are askin for Collie boys head just like
I said so. Collie boy had his Head up his A$$, 3 and 23 and he runs a draw!!!
The Donks are that bad...... They did not deserve to be there.... The Browns
could have made a better game of it even tho no one was going to beat the
49er's... Look for Reeves to be moved to the front office and maybe for
Elway to be traded.... Yah  Big John hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
Congrats to the 49er's and their fans!!!!!!!!!

Monty

	I watched the game with a couple of Bronco fans. They gave up before
halftime. They had a glimmer of hope when the stopped the niners before
the second half started, but Elway's Int. ruined that.  The Broncos,
with all their swagger this week, were talking like it might be a day
at the beach for them. Well, they were right, only the beach was Normandy,
and they weren't the Americans.

	Jim M

    re:: superbowl
    
    Coming from a bronco fan, here's my assessment of the game.
    
                                       49'ers  =  completely awesome
    
                                       donko's =  no show!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
    
                                                      steve

re .440:

Basher....

What a fine comparison to Normandy.  That's exactly what it reminded
me of, and I only saw the highlights.  The Denver High Command appeared
to have it's head in the same place that the German High Command
did on 6 June 1944.

The thing I cannot get over was the sheer domination the 9ers had
over the Broncos secondary.  It seems as if Rice was strolling
in the park!

Chainsaw

    re..412 YOU ARE CRAZY.

�                                                               The Broncos,
� with all their swagger this week, were talking like it might be a day
� at the beach for them. Well, they were right, only the beach was Normandy,
� and they weren't the Americans.

Jim M,

A) Almost all Bronco fans this week admitted that it would take a miracle to
beat the Niners. There was a lot of kidding about how the Donks were gonna
roll, but nobody was really swaggering.

B) We Americans got our asses kicked on Normandy's beaches, or haven't you ever
heard of `Bloody Omaha'? Utah was pretty bad as well. Sword and Juneau were
cakewalks by comparison.

HTH
Mike JN

    Congrats niner fans.  Your team is awesome.  Unless something
    terrible happens, they will win it all again next year.  The
    rest of the nfl may as well mail it in.
    
    I can only describe the Donks play as embarassing.  Did they
    know they had a game to play?  They didn't even have enough
    guys on the field for one of their punt returns!  The O lost
    the game for them.  The D never got a break.  They played 21
    of the 30 minutes in the first half.
    
    I guess the Donks are guilty of being like the rest of the 
    nfl....way behind the niners.  There is a huge gap between
    them and the so-called second tier of teams.  A gap that 
    I don't think will become any narrower next year.  I'm glad
    to see a bunch of class guys like Montana, Craig, and Rice
    rewrite most of the SB records.  At least Bradshaw's name is
    gone.  That guy is such a hot dog.  And to think I used to
    respect him....
    
    I hope the Donks can put this behind them.  I've got a feeling
    that they will be reeling from this for some time to come.
    
    Claybone

    RE.430 YOUR JUST MAD YOU GOT BLOWN AWAY LIKE NOBODY EVER HAS,
    QUIT CRYING.
    PS. ALL THE STATMENTS YOU MADE, WERE BASED ON YOUR PERCEPTION.
                                                  ----

�B) We Americans got our asses kicked on Normandy's beaches, or haven't you ever
�heard of `Bloody Omaha'? Utah was pretty bad as well. Sword and Juneau were
�cakewalks by comparison.

Actually, the percentage of casualties on Omaha were well below what was
predicted.  And (having been to Omaha Beach and seen the geography) there's
very little reason why the Germans couldn't have utterly annihilated
us there.  The high ground is *high* and should be virtually holdable
against anything.  Quite simply, they choked....

Utah had much lighter resistance.  The big decision on Utah was that
the original plan called for four roads to be taken as an outlet
off the beach.  Only one was taken, and one of the officiers had to decide
whether to bottle up the invasion while waiting for the other three
or to get things moving out the one.  He chose the one, and things
went smoothly.  Actually, the officer was Roosevelt (forget the relationship
to the Pres) and I believe he was a bird colonel who was later promoted to
Brig. General.  The geography of Utah didn't have hardly any high ground
for the Germans to use...

I agree Sword and Juneau (and Gold) were pretty easy.

    It reminds me, my wife amazingly actually watched this game with me
    trying to understand what was going on.  After the 1st couple td's she
    caught on to what a great quarterback Montana is.  Then, in typical
    womanly fashion, she started ooohing and aaahing at how handsome ol'
    Joe is, to which I thought of T's comments of "horseface".  Between his
    game talents and his obvious handsomeness :-), she acquired a huge
    fondness for the guy.  Then the kicker.....  Remembering another T
    fack about him leaving his 1st wife after becoming rich and famous, I
    axed wifey about how she felt about this guy now, figuring how it'd
    deflate all those positive feelings about the guy she just fell in love
    with.  Didn't phase her in the least!  She said that his private life
    has nothing to do with his talent and his good looks.  Floored the hell
    out of me!
    
    So, T, this proves you are wrong about the guy!  :-)
    
    HTH.
    
    Hawk

    Best part about yesterday was that it signaled the end of the NFL
    season and ushered in the NBA on CBS!
    
    Utah & Mr. 61 points Malone invade the Palace to take on the Pistons
    next Sunday!
    
    Mike

    POORSPORT, PLEASE ALLOW ME TO REPHRASE.IT'S NOT YOUR PERCEPTION,ITS
    YOUR AMAZING ABILITY WITH SELECTIVE LISTINING.

    
    Why does Denver always shoot their collective wad during the AFC
    championship game?  Boy, if half the team that showed up for that 
    game had shown up for the Superbowl, they could have at least made 
    a game of it, and kept the Patriots in the record books.  
    
    Elway, choke.  Receivers choke.  Humphries choke, defense - major league 
    CHOKE!!!    gag gag..  
        
    If the team doesn't want to play in the Superbowl, let someone who does
    give it a ride ..  The Bucs and the Patriots gave the 9ers better
    games..    

    re .450
    
    	QUIT YELLING!!!!!!  Turn your caps lock off.
    
    	The real MVP's of the SB should have been SF's offensive
    	and defensive lines.
    
    Claybone

    re.452 sorry about the yelling,it was done purposely. "T" really
    gets my blood boiling.

    re: "shovel pass"
    
    I'm curious as to where you guys got the word "shovel" when it's really
    supposed to be "shuffle"?
    
    Help me.
    
    Hawk

    Hawk, it's cuz Gerald Perry whips out a shovel and lays it up
    side the haid of the DT.    ;^)
    
    HTH,
    
    Claybone

    
    No Darryl my workload hasn't increased dramatically.  My wallet
    was stolen Friday night and I've spent all morning down at the
    DMV getting a new driver's license and calling credit card companies.  
    The pathetic thing was that it was more fun than watching the game 
    yesterday.
    
    Congrats to the 9r fans!  The 9rs played an outstanding game.  
    The Broncos....well....it would have been interesting if they had 
    even played up to the level of their worst regular season game.  
    I don't know what the stigma is about the Superbowl for them.
    
    Yeah, I didn't know if that pass interference/interception call
    was right....but heh, Collie should have been called for 
    leg-whipping on Mecklenberg...and it never happened.  Not that
    any of this would have made even the slightest difference.  My only 
    consolation is that I don't believe that any team in the league 
    could have stopped the 9rs yesterday.  Maybe gave a better game, 
    but I don't think anyone would have beat them.
    
    All my Bronco pictures remain on my wall...and I've updated it
    to SuperBowl XXV.  Ever the optimist!
    
    							Jill

    I think it is "shuffle" pass, Hawk.  And for the life of me, I couldn't
    understand Denver's continued use of the damn thing.  It worked once
    that I saw, but I suppose it was the longest pass Elway could complete
    yesterday.   
    
    					Steve 

    
    I believe it is called the 'Shuttle Pass' because it blew up
    horrendously.
    
    -Dick
    

    
    I always thought it was called a "shovel" pass.  That's what the QB is
    doing, shoveling it with an underhanded motion, right?  Of course, in 
    the Broncs' case, trying to slip the damn thing past multiple defenders
    already in the backfield, maybe you could call it a "shuffle" pass
    (casino-style)...
    
    glenn
    

    I've heard announcers call it "shovel" and "shuffle" but "shovel"
    sounds like the best description for it to me.
    
    Cowboy
    

    In my old Vince Lombardi Football game, there was a shovel pass,
    but no shuffle pass...
    
    JD

Maybe like Elways' arm was hurting, eh?

From what I heard, he was shovel passing to everyone...

I read in the newspaper, eh, that even when he made his touchdown
run, he was thinking of shovel passing to the referee, eh?

Beauty.

    
    
    JaKe
    

    No, I gots a little Honda that "throws" it into my neighbor's driveway!
    
    :-)
    
    Hawk

    Go Broncos.....   We'll be back,  Count on it !!
    
    Big Game

    re. -1
    
     The NFC is counting on it....
    
    
    ....to chalk up some more easy wins.
    
    Even I agree that the Broncos have the ability to play better than
    they did yesterday. I have tried to figure out why the Broncos perform
    so poorly in superbowls. The only thing that I have seemed to notice
    is their desire. I think you can blame Reeves. I don't think he
    knows how to get a team ready for the superbowl. The teams that
    win the superbowl are teams that improve every week and then peak
    in late January. The 49ers did just that. Denver seemed to play
    consistently all season and never rose above that consistent play,
    the niners had it in high gear hitting on all cylinders and the
    Broncos just never turned up the intensity. I'm not saying the Broncos
    had a prayer at winning this game, but to lose by such a wide margin,
    indicates that they were not ready to play. 
    
    re. to those that said no team would have beaten the niners yesterday
    
    You can think that Denver is as good as anyone except the niners,
    but it isn't true.
    
                                 Steve J.

    The AFC has won 12 and the NFC has won 12...
    There is no truth of the rumor that Joe Walton is going to be the
    new Coach of the Denver Donks.
    
             REK

    San Francisco still has a long way to go to catch Green Bay:
    
    Team	Titles	Years
    
    Green Bay	11	1929,1930,1931,1936,1939,1944,1961,1962,1965-67
    Chicago	8	1932,1933,1940,1941,1943,1946,1963,1985
    Giants	5	1927,1934,1938,1956,1986
    San Fran	4	1981,1984,1988,1989
    Redskins	4	1937,1942,1982,1987
    Pittsburgh	4	1974,1975,1978,1979
    Cleveland	4	1950,1954,1955,1964, plus 4 AAFC titles 1946-49
    Detroit	4	1935,1952,1953,1957
    Raiders	3	1976,1980,1983
    Colts	3	1958,1959,1970
    Eagles	3	1948,1949,1960
    Dallas	2	1971,1977
    Miami	2	1972,1973
    Rams	2	1945,1951
    Cardinals	2	1925,1947
    Chiefs	1	1969 and 1 pre-Super Bowl AFL title in 1962
    Jets	1	1968
    
    Pre-Super Bowl AFL titles by Houston in 1960 and 1961, San Diego
    in 1963 and Buffalo in 1964 and 1965.
    
    John
     

    In thinking/watching the game Sunday (or as much of it as I could
    take without falling asleep, I think I lost interest somewhere when
    the score rolled over into exponents ;), I was wondering:
    
    Seems like an *awful* lot of these Super Bowl games turn into blowouts,
    or at least, games where the score isn't as "close" as it looks.
    One team dominates like h*ll, the other kinda rolls over and dies,
    lasping into general mediocrity.  Okie, this is good for fans of
    the winnahs, *BUT*:
    
    How does these blowouts affect TV ratings?  After the middle of
    the second quarter, it was fairly obvious the 49ers were going to
    win, unless God himself descended onto the Broncos bench.  I would
    suspect that a goodly portion of TV sets either changed channels,
    or slapped in the newest Sports Illustrated videotape (okie, I'm
    hypoth-e-sizing :).  Unless you are an acute fan of either teams,
    which doesn't probably include *most* of the TV audience, blowouts
    are in a word, BORING to watch.  
    
    Did CBS guarantee ratings for this game? Do you think they lost
    ratings?  Did anyone REALLY watch the second half of the game??
    ;)   And are those gaudy halftime shows REALLY necessary???  ;D
    
    Does anyone know facts (speculation is invited, but facts are nice)
    about how these blowouts affect Super Bowl games?  I think they
    must--even Tank McNamara ran the previous week about penalizing
    teams who score too much.
    
    (Hey, I think there is a best-selling book in there--"Teams Who
    Score Too Much and the Fans Who Watch Them"....yeah, I'll make
    million$, yeah....)   ;>
    
    ---kim

�How does these blowouts affect TV ratings?  
    
    If the preliminary figures hold true this was either the worst or
    second worst rating ever for a Super Bowl.  
    
    There is now speculation that the AFC and NFC TV contracts will be
    negotiated separately rather than a blanket NFL TV contract.

                            (we'll be back)
    
         Well I'm writing from my mine shaft I had to crawl back into,The
    Niners were splendid and Denver never showed.I belive Denver could
    have given the Niners a game in Mile High,but they just can't seem
    to prepare for the big game. They looked scared coming out when they
    were introduced. Elway will never win a superbowl with the Broncos.
    He is too shook. Denver should work a trade Elway and look for a
    young prospect at quarterback,(Walsh from Dallas?).And build with
    the other draftpicks they would get. With a impact defensive pass
    rusher and a real cornerback the defense would finally jell. They
    might be able to pick up a good offensive tackle in the Plan b.
    market. Elway might finnally blossom in another town,Dan Reaves
    has pampered him,his superbowl rateing is .49 compared to 129 for
    Montana and yet he still defends him,after seven years in the league
    you would think the guy could look a receiver off.
    
         Maybe we can make it back,I don't anyone in the A.F.C that is
    anybetter. The Niners are a great team but can be beat,maybe a
    rematch next year. 
    
    STILL A BRONCO FAN BUT THIS CROW TASTE BADD!!!!
    
    BRIAN

    
    Hi Brian,  I think Reeves defends Elway because he's partly to
    blame.  Years ago they made a decision to change Elway's style
    so that he wouldn't get hurt running around.  They brought in
    Morton to coach him and things haven't been the same since.
    Elway used to love the game, now it's a grind for him.  It
    would be interesting to go back to a game plan that conforms
    to his style next year and see what happens.  If nothing
    develops, then I think changes would be inevitable.
    
    							Jill

>  <<< Note 115.465 by QUASER::HUNTER "Jack's Diner, No Brains, No Service" >>>
                                    -< ex >-

    >We'll be back,  Count on it !!
    >    Big Game

Maybe in the year 2010...   hahahhahahahahahahahahaha8^))))))))))))))))))

>    Let's look at the bright side here, fellas.  The Bronks are still
>    on their way up and the 9ers have peaked.

     There really isn't much evidence that the 49'ers have peaked.  Even
     if they have (and I doubt it), there's a long way down the slope to
     get to the next best team in the league.  No, I think the 49'ers
     will remain at the top for at leat 2 more years.

    Re: Steven   
    
     Here, here !!  The Broncos will be back.  They are young 
    and have lots of talent.  I think Denver need an "O" 
    coordinator to straighten things out.  Mike Shannahn will
    fill that role nexted year. 
    
    Re: Parrot
    
     Your replies aren't eve worth responding to.  I don't beleive
    you have the gall to SLAM the Donks when you team hasn't seen
    post season play in quite some time.  Jam It All The Way Up,
    Monty.....  You're really a Jerk.
    
    Big Game

I was intransit yesterday frim Santa Fe back to Colorado Springs, so was
unable to get in here.  But about all I can say at this time is ......


	What a Bummer.....-:(

	Ed^2

but Jack you have been telling me this for years....


	"John Boy will do it for us"
	" Big John will win it "

	" Big John "

0-4 is what you really knew!!!!

    	Two years ago I said the best 4 teams were in the NFC.  Hardly
    anyone agreed with me then, but I've yet to see any evidence to
    prove me wrong.  
    
    				/Don

    Jack, I thought you weren't going to be back until the Broncos smashed
    the '49ers.

      An Elway trade??  I don't think it will ever happen unless Reaves  
    is gone.  I say it was the preparation for the game that lacked, again!
    
      Yeh it did looked like no one could beat the 9'rs sunday,  but denver
    didn't even show.  Losing is one thing,  but getting slautered is
    another.  Elway is still one of the best.
    
      We will be back,  and I wouldn't mind seeing a rematch or a Vike vs
    Bronc SB. 
    
    		Tim

    
    Elway is not one of the best, take him out pile high and he sucks. What
    he is one the best emotional QB is in the game. When things are going
    right and the fans are on his side he can be devastating but let things
    look a little grim or be in hostile territory and he's lost. He is a
    great athelete which helps him overcome his shortcomings at the
    posistion he plays.
    
    mike

    Yeah right Mike, just like his performance in Cleveland in the AFC 
    championship game 4 years ago...........
    
    Claybone

    re.473 like i said before mr. gee, you here what you want to hear.
    ps. how about that new and improved denver D.

    
    ...and he doesn't have the brains to read the defense and change the
    play.

                        re.472
        Hi Jill,your point is well made.I think Reaves would be a better
    front office guy than a headcoach.He is well prepared but is way to
    slow to react when his game plan is not working,he doesn't seem willing
    to adjust his gameplan until its to little and to late. Yes Elway is
    his best when on the run,weather its a planned rollout or a scramble.
    If Reaves moves up,Schanahan would be a great choice to replace him.
    Elway has a much better rappor with Schanahan than with Reaves. I still
    feel Elway is treated with kid gloves and this has delayed his progress
    as a leader and a quarterback. I hope he can develope into the winner
    he should be,or it is one of the great waste of natural talent the
    sports would has ever seen.
    
                               Brian

    
    Small nit: its Reeves and Shanahan
    
    
    I saw HBO's Inside the NFL this past weekend and they had some shots,
    and mics, that we didn't get during the game. One thing was undeniable,
    Elway looked totally lost and scared to death. It appears to me there
    is no way he will ever win a championship, unless he is a back-up. One
    of Denver's players, I forget who right now, said, "In the Championship
    game the QB has to come out confident and take charge, he (Elway)
    didn't do it". Just before one of the 49er TDs they showed the TE
    talking to Montana telling him to run such and such play because "that
    middle linebacker is sllooow, it will be a TD". It was. 
    
                                                   HOOT
    

    RE MrT's diatribe about Montana:
    
    MrT, why don't you tell everyone where you got this 'juicy' gossip
    you related in .380?  Was it in the National Enquirer or that fine
    television show hosted by Maury Povitch (I wonder what you would
    say if he did an article on BK similar to Feinwhatever's?)?  That's
    where the story broke, in those two *fine* examples of American
    journalism.  And I always thought you were above using those types
    of articles as sources.  
    
    Let's look a little closer at what we have here.  An ex-wife (always
    a good source to go to when you want something *really* nice to
    say about someone) says he ex-husband is a rat.  Not that is a
    revelation.  Oh, wait a minute, it's an ex-wife who has a new book
    coming out about her marriage.  Oh, wait some more, an ex-wife who
    is _getting paid_ by the Enquirer and MrT's newest journalistic
    hero Maury Povitch, to spout off bad things about the man who done
    her wrong.  
    
    Now certainly someone with MrT's integrity wouldn't condemn someone
    without hearing both sides of the story?  Would he?  Certainly he
    wouldn't use the tesimony of an ex-wife to judge a man's character,
    right?  When is Geraldo doing his show on Joe so T can get the other
    side of the story?
    
    
    Bruce
          

    
    Hoot, I think it was Ron Holmes who made the comment about the QB
    taking charge. If not him then Brooks....
    
    Elway wouldn't even make it as a backup Hoot. I can see it now denver
    up 3 with 90 seconds left to go and the ball, Reeves calls for a run
    Elway signals screen pass to Kubiak intercepted touchdown the donks
    loose again....
    
    ;^)
    
    mike
    

     re.491 don't get mad at mr.T, he is p*s*ed because Joe made
     the broncos look like a high school team in front of the
     whole world.
    

    Strawberries
    Cherries
    Banana Split,
    
    Elway and the Donks
    Played like Sh$t
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Phoenix was selected yesterday to host the 1993 Super Bowl.  They still
    have to implement the MLK holiday, but $$$ talks.
    
    Mike

    heard on the radio this morning that Phoenix's stadium is "dry".
    
    No Beero.
    
    No lines at the p!sser.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Not true Jake.  The ASU games might be dry, but the Cardinal games
    aren't.
    
    Mike

    Mike, what's the deal over MLK's birthday?  I saw in today's paper that
    Phoenix holding the Super Bowl hinged on it being a state holiday.

    I got note .500  8^)
    
    The Wizard

    According to todays paper  no beers sales are permitted on the
    Sun Devils Stadium  grounds or the campus.
    
    a very dry super bowl.. about time
    
           REK

================================================================================
Note 115.501              The Official Super Bowl Note                501 of 501
NRADM::KING "FUR...the look that KILLS..."            6 lines  14-MAR-1990 13:32
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

�    According to todays paper  no beers sales are permitted on the
�    Sun Devils Stadium  grounds or the campus.
    
�    a very dry super bowl.. about time

	Check last year's game.  I would venture that quite a few Bronco
players had throats that were dry as a bone.

				/Don

       Super Bowls played in the Orange Bowl were also dry, I believe.
    Anyway, why is it 'about time'? I don't recall any incidents involving
    drunk fans at Super Bowls.
                                 Denny

Most of the slob's that cause the problems don't have the money to go see
the Stupid-bowl!!!  AkA, New york fans... many ;^))))))))


Monty

    < why is it 'about time'?
    
    Cause REK don't drink and wants everybody on this planet to be a
    non-alcoholic dog-hating aetheist like him, right REK? 
    
    :-)
    
    H'awk

Well , I don't drink either!

	Except for bourbon. And beer. And sometimes tequila. Okay, Bloody
Mary's once `n awhile. And in the mornings on weekends, I always pour Kahlua in
my coffee. That's `cause I make my own Kahlua. I also make homemade Schnapps,
Dram Buie (sp?), Grand Marnier, Irish Cream, and Amaretta...GREAT Amaretta! And
that's it. Well, except for wine... sometimes I drink wine. Oh.. and brandy if
I'm skiing. Okay, Rum once in awhile. And sometimes, I get a yen for Long
Island Teas. Nothing serious, though.

	So, for all practical purposes, I just say I don't drink.

Mike JN

    
I am a non-alcholic dog-hating aetheist, and I drink my ass off.
It's all a matter of perspective:

		There ain't no alcohol in me.
		I hate ugly women.
		And I don't like having operations....

I believe I'll have another beer (hic)....

re .506:

I dunno, there, Mike.  If you're making all that stuff, then you
might hafta register with the Revenuers or something like that...

I finally decided that the best way to handle my beer jones was
to make my own.  That way, I can make it cheaper, and better,
without all the chemicals in today's beer that will do bad things
to you like give you colon cancer (or even apostrophe cancer).

Hpe ths howpse.

chanisaw ;^)

Make your own beer, huh?
Not bad...
I've thought of that once in awhile, but have never tried it.
Does it cost much to get started?

    re: making your own beer.......
    
    Budweiser starts with a couple a_Clydesdales........
    
    Hops shit phleep.
    
    H'awk

    re: MLK holiday
    
    I don't see how local government would refuse it with a potential $200M
    staring them in the face.  Too bad it took the Super Bowl to get the
    losers to go along with it.  The class acts do it on their own.
    
    Mike

    
    MLK B-day and the Bowl
    
    Blackmail, pure and simple. They learned this from the feds, drinking
    age raised or highway funds are cut, speed limits are what the feds
    want or highway funds cut etc. The only difference being that cutting
    highway funds is taking the residents money (taxes) from them where 
    yanking the Bowl takes away prospective big bucks. So what do the ever
    so moral polititions do in Arizona? Why yank the state holiday,
    Columbus Day, out from under their feet and replace it with MLK B-day.
    After all it is the moral thing to do, you know. Anyone want to bet
    that there will be a movement started around Feb. 1993 to re-instate 
    Columbus Day as a state holiday in place of MLK b-day.
    
                                                   HOOT
     

       I used to make my own beer, but I never came up with a batch I
    liked. I do go along with Mike on the homemade Kahlua though, great
    stuff!
                                        Denny

    Wrong John, I do like a fine glass of wine with my meal... 
    Go to ant Pats game and just watch the drunks roll around the
    stadium...
    
                 REK

       But they don't sell (real) beer in Foxboro! And what does that have
    to do with a 'dry' Super Bowl?
                                      Denny

    It doesn't have anything to do with a 'dry' Super Bowl, Denny.  REK
    just likes to bring up his bad experiences at Foxboro.

    Nice shot Karen... my point is when I pay top dollar to go to sporting
    events I really don't need some drunken asshole yelling, screaming,
    and falling down idiot ruining the game for me. Just take a look at all
    the arrest at Foxboro...  The state police would have a field day on
    route 1 if they ever set up a roadblock...
    
                 REK
    
    I have nothing against selling beer at sporting event but until they
    can find a way of controling it I say BAN the sales!

�    events I really don't need some drunken asshole yelling, screaming,
                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Anatomically speaking, I believe it's the alcohol content of the blood
that impairs the brain's ability to cope with the incoming neural
stimuli in a timely fashion.  The asshole, quite literally, has nothing
whatsoever to do with it.

However, boozers at a game can be a problem.  I've always been very fortunate.
In fact, the one time I was really close to someone who was obviously
cocked, I was a Stafford Springs Motor Speedway watching NASCAR modifieds.
This fellow was about 5 rows down the bleachers.  He was so trashed he'd
be standing up SCREAMING at the driver of the car he wanted to win.
Two kids (maybe 10) were sitting behind him, obviously quite afraid to laugh
at this guy.

Well, after about 5 minutes my friend and I couldn't hold off anymore.
We started laughing, snorting, and tears the size of horseturds were
rolling down our cheeks(tm)  [That expression is Mike JN's BTW], and
these two kids heard us laughing and howling, and *they* finally started.

AFter a little while, the guy started to climb down the bleachers, lost
his balance and rolled down about 10 rows of (empty) bleachers.  I almost
wet myself.

Why pay money for a comedy club?  

Also, i think some of the problems at the Pats game might be that the 
team/owner/coach drives the fans to drink 8^)

My 2� worth....
Chainsaw

    
    Re. MLK day:
    
    You call it blackmail, Hoot, I call it boycott, which is a legitimate
    form of protest.  As opposed to the Feds, the NFL is a private
    organization that can choose to play/not play wherever they damn well
    please.  Frankly, I'm kind of shocked, because I've never considered
    the NFL to have much of a social conscience when dollars were at stake, 
    the efforts of NFL Charities notwithstanding.  The Super Bowl coming so
    close to the holiday just makes the boycott all the more appropriate.
    
    I wish some organization would do the same in my state (New Hampshire)
    to at least get the MLK day *recognized*, much less celebrated.  I 
    agree with Mr. Heiser that having to be forced to do so with something
    as insignificant as a football game shows a lack of class.
    
    glenn
    

    REK, don't you think most, if not all, drunks at Sullivan Stadium have
    indulged way before they even set foot in the stadium?  It's not the
    near beer inside getting them drunk, it's the whiskey, vodka, etc. 
    that's consumed beforehand.
    
    I do agree that the loud, obnoxious, destructive drunks are a big
    problem, but drying out the concessions is not the solution by a long
    shot.
    
    Hawk

On a serious note, I agree with Hawk....

When I go to a hockey game, I like to see the game.  On the way in,
I buy one of those Super beers (24oz).  Now, there are probably very
few people in the world who like beer more than I do, but I suck
down that 24 oz beer, and that's usually it.

See, there's a couple of reasons.  First, where I sit, it's a long climb
down to go to a) the nearest concession stand b) the nearest bathroom.
So, being a little lazy, I like to stay put.  Now if someone wants to go
down and buy me a beer, that's okay too, but more than two beers, and
my bladder starts letting me know just what its purpose is in life...

Because I enjoy a beer with my game, I'd be pissed if they dried out the
civic center....


On a non-serious note:

	REK.  There is hope for you.  Enroll in my course "Enjoy a
	Richer and Fuller Life Through The Imbibing of Beer".  We'll
	take you step by step towards the Ultimate Fulfillment of your
	adult life, by utilizing a proven psychological methed
	of successive approximations to have you become a lusty, manful
	beer drinker in no time.... 8^)

BTW, /Don has the rights to the Video Version of the course....

Chainsaw

================================================================================
Note 115.520              The Official Super Bowl Note                520 of 521
SASE::SZABO                                          10 lines  15-MAR-1990 08:31
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
�    I do agree that the loud, obnoxious, destructive drunks are a big
�    problem, but drying out the concessions is not the solution by a long
�    shot.
    
�    Hawk

	Hawk's right.  Drying out the Medowlands didn't discourage the
drunks at GiantsMania.  Right JD?

				/Don

    /Don, the Meadowlands' concessions sell a mean iced tea!
    
    H'awk
    
    P.S.  I'm ready for the nexted Giantsmania already!

    
>    You call it blackmail, Hoot, 
 
I agree with Hoot 100%, would you think anything else!!


 >   Frankly, I'm kind of shocked, because I've never considered
 >   the NFL to have much of a social conscience when dollars were at stake, 
 >   the efforts of NFL Charities notwithstanding.  The Super Bowl coming so
 >   close to the holiday just makes the boycott all the more appropriate.
  
Shocked???  What's the % of blacks in the NFL???? 
  
   > I wish some organization would do the same in my state (New Hampshire)
   > to at least get the MLK day *recognized*, much less celebrated.  I 
    
Same as above ....  % of Blacks in your state???
   
Monty

    
    Glenn,
    The reason I see it as blackmail is the fact that MLK's B-day is a
    state holiday. The citizens of that state decided they would rather
    have Columbus Day as their state holiday. The citizens have spoken.
    Where does the NFL get off trying to set state government policy that
    has absolutely nothing to do with the NFL? Personally, I don't care one
    way or the other. Except for the fact that the citizens have spoken and
    the NFL is trying, and will succeed in the name of the all-might
    dollar, in undermining the citizens' decision. Here at CXO, I am glad
    we are not forced to take MLK's B-day off. It falls too close to the
    Christmas/New Year's Holidays. Most people are broke. It is another
    winter Holiday and then leaves a loooong 4+ month holiday dry spell.
    Our site choice day is left up to the employee to take whenever s/he
    wants to take it. I like it that way.
    
                                                   HOOT
     

    
    First of all, we don't get MLK's birthday off in Mass, but it's still a
    recognized holiday.  I don't see any harm in that.  Second of all, if
    the citizens and government in Arizona are that strong in their
    convictions, why don't they tell the NFL to go to hell?  I don't see
    the NFL as the bad guy in this for saying that they don't want to play
    the Super Bowl in one of the few states that still doesn't recognize 
    the holiday in some way.  Certainly the fact that the Arizona
    government will make the change when pressured over a football game 
    shows that their principles on the issue can be easily compromised.
    
    Monty, I have no idea what you're getting at.  What does it matter how
    many blacks are in the NFL?  What does it matter how many blacks live 
    in New Hampshire?  The holiday recognizes the leader of the civil 
    rights movement, and civil rights are something we can all appreciate.  
    Some 45+ states, all of which have black minorities, have decided to.
    What's the big deal?
    
    glenn
     

    
    > down to go to a) the nearest concession stand b) the nearest
    bathroom.
    
    In the Boston Garden, these are interchangable.
    
    Re: dry Super Bowl  - How much ya wanna bet that this year's Budbowl
    challenger will be Michelob DRY?
    
    -Dick
    

What the hell...why don't they celebrate MY birthday, or Hawk's, or
John Q Public...

Sheesh.

Nexted thing ya know, they're not gonna hold that 7-Nations Bingo
Tournament in Hartford, cause we don't celebrate Mother Teresa's
birthday!


Chainsaw

    
    Glenn,
    When I worked in Springfield/West Springfield MK's B-day was the site
    choice day, I don't know if it still is or not. That was 10+ years ago.
    I'm not arguing about right or wrong, King did an awful lot of good for
    this country. My problem is that our government is supposed to do what
    the people say. The government has been undermining what the people say
    they want for several years now and it is getting worse. This is just
    another example. The people of Arizona voted down making MLK's B-day a
    state holiday. Case closed. Now the NFL comes in and waves mega-bucks
    under the state governments noses but only if they change their policy
    on an issue that has absolutely nothing to do with the NFL. It is a
    safe bet that the Airzona legislators will say the Hell with the
    people, go for the gold. Now if the people decide to make it a holiday,
    then I'm all for it. I just get tired of our government doing what they
    want instead of what the citizens want, regardless of the issue. OK,
    OK, I'll get off the soapbox.
    
                                                   HOOT
    

    Hoot, I'm with you on that issue, and also the hammer that the Feds
    hold over the State Governments (and at least in Massachusetts,
    the State Government holds over the Municipal Governments) by saying
    "if you don't do X program then we'll withhold funds for Y."  I'm
    also against a higher government requiring that a certain program
    be implemented and then requiring the lower government to pay for
    it.  But this isn't SOAPBOX so I'll shut up.
    
    John

    
    I hear you guys, but I'll repeat: the NFL is not the government and if
    they choose not to do business over a social issue, then that's their
    prerogative.  The people of Arizona can go to the polls to decide
    between MLK Day or the Super Bowl, if they want.  As I understand it,
    it's non-negotiable as far as the NFL's concerned.  This issue is on 
    a much smaller scale, but it's the same thing as some corporations 
    deciding they'd rather not do business in South Africa, even where 
    that business might be completely legal.  You call it blackmail, I 
    call it boycott...
    
    glenn

Glenn,

I see a subtle difference there, though.  The South Africa regime
is involved in the oppression of a entire race of people.
The people of Phoenix voted on whether or not to celebrate a holiday.

I for one would pick Columbus Day, simply because of the time of
year it occurs... I cain't speak for Phoenix folk, but that may have
had a lot to do with the vote....

JMHO,
Chainsaw

    The NFL took the stance they did re. AZ/MLK because of the NFL players
    Union, which DOES have large % of blacks in the ranks.
    
    AZ got into hot water not because of their lack of recognition of
    a *National* holiday, but because of their obnoxious attitude when
    doing so Hoot.
    
    Finally, just remember, the NBA (spearheaded by *its* players
    association), gave the state of AZ a simular ultimatum a couple
    of years back, or else they were going to hold their off-season
    mega-meeting elsewhere.

    
> I see a subtle difference there, though.  The South Africa regime
> is involved in the oppression of a entire race of people.
> The people of Phoenix voted on whether or not to celebrate a holiday.
    
    Absolutely.  That's why I said the Arizona issue was on a smaller 
    scale and used the example only to make the point about private
    and individual prerogative.  But I do feel that the issue is one of 
    social importance and is more than just a trivial squabble over what 
    day some people in state government should have off.
    
    As Dr. M pointed out, the NFL isn't the first to raise the issue.
    I believe some national labor unions have taken similar steps.
    
    glenn
     
    

> I see a subtle difference there, though.  The South Africa regime
> is involved in the oppression of a entire race of people.
> The people of Phoenix voted on whether or not to celebrate a holiday.
    
    I think you may be trivializing this, Frank.  Apparently, in the NFL's
    eyes, it isn't a question over a holiday, but over honoring a man who
    was instrumental in reducing the opression of an entire race of people.

    If Arizona hadn't elected that total moron, Evan Meachem, for
    governor a few years ago, it's doubtful that this current flap
    over the King holiday would even have surfaced.
    
    Meachem was the brain-dead jerk who rescinded the King holiday in
    Arizona and he also called young black children "pickaninnies".
    
    Good thing Arizona had the sense to impeach him and toss him but
    now they need to correct one of Meachem's mistakes.   The NFL is
    being awfully high-handed about this but you can't fault their
    intent.
    
    Bob Hunt
    

    
    'saw,  ask a black person who lives in AZ if they haven't been the
    victim of some oppression there.                              
                                                             
    On another front, ASU and UA are having a very difficult time
    recruiting blacks to their football/basketball teams because of
    the holiday issue.  Are these kids wrong?
    
    Bruce  

    
    It wouldn't matter if the NFL told Arizona they wouldn't play there
    until Phoenix painted the stadium lavender, the NFL is a *private*
    entity, and can do whatever they want with their (in this case,
    the players, the coaches, the owners) money.  The players and the
    NFL chose to "value" cities that honor MLK by bringing them their
    business.
    
    How is this blackmail?  It's like a person choosing not to buy
    beer in a bar that plays disco ("when they start playing some 
    Creedence, then I'll drink there.")  I don't see as the racial 
    issue (MLK) has anything to do with it.
    
SEAN/BEER=LABATTS

�    'saw,  ask a black person who lives in AZ if they haven't been the
�    victim of some oppression there.                              


Sorry dudes, but I don't know anyone who lives in AZ.

First off, I'm not totally familiar with any situation out there (but
do remember all the controversy over Meachem) so I don't know the ins
and outs.  

I was just making a point about what I perceived the difference to be
between MLK B-day and boycotting S. Africa.

As to whether or not they should celebrate the holiday, I was under
the impression that the folks out there has an "either-or" choice.
Perhaps I'm wrong.  What i was stating was that, personally, given
the choice, I'd take Columbus day, solely on the basis of when it
falls.  (The only holidays I really take to heart are July 4th and
Memorial Day anyway).

But, hell, if they wanted to make Vasco Da Gamma's B-day a holiday
I'd be out parading in the streets if I had the day off from work and
had a good supply of beer laid in....

    
    I was out on a business trip in Phoenix a few weeks ago.  It's hard to 
    quantify, but I got the distinct feeling that prejudice was alive and
    well there, especially towards Mexicans.  Please don't jump all over me
    on this one Mike H..  it's just the impression I got from some of the 
    locals I meet there (while not on business).  
    
    /Jeff

	TOMORROW IS  * I R I S H * DAY!!  AND I'M CELEBRATIN'!!

			Actually, it's St Paddy's Day, but I seem to have
			more of an affinity to the pagans around the time
			of Cuchulain. Gimme a longsword, and the room to 
			swing it!
       .
       |    
   \ � * � /
  . �* * *� .
 -=*MIKE JN*=-              ERIN GO BRAGH, DUDES AND DUDETTES!!!!
  � .* * *. �
   / . * . \
       |  
       �     

�       .
�       |    
�   \ � * � /
�  . �* * *� .
� -=*MIKE JN*=-            
�  � .* * *. �
�   / . * . \
�       |  
�       �     

I'd trademark this sucker, Mike....looks Too Cool!

I'll join ya with the Longsword, and let's go behead some usurpers!!!!

Chainsaw

    Re: Chainsaw
    
    What?!?!  You don't know anyone who lives in 'Zona?!?!
    
>    <<< Note 115.543 by SNDCSL::HAUSRATH "Who,Stones in '89. Zep in '90" >>>
>    I was out on a business trip in Phoenix a few weeks ago.  It's hard to 
>    quantify, but I got the distinct feeling that prejudice was alive and
>    well there, especially towards Mexicans.  Please don't jump all over me
>    on this one Mike H..  it's just the impression I got from some of the 
>    locals I meet there (while not on business).  
    
    /Jeff, your first mistake is not coming by to say "Hey"!  Your second
    mistake was meeting with the wrong people :-)  Seriously, there are
    prejudice people everywhere.  I don't think Mexicans are hated either,
    there are as many Mexicans around here as there are Anglos.
    
    If it wasn't for Mexicans, we wouldn't have their food, music, culture,
    and I wouldn't be married :-)
    
    Mike

No offense Mike, but I meant, I didn't **KNOW** anybody, as in
met, had beers with....  That's a KNOW in all caps...  You I just
know, in lower case.  When I get out there, and we have some beers,
and talk about the Celtics or whatever, then I'll KNOW you ;^) ;^) ;^)

Final thought on race, religion, creed stuff.

There are good folks, and there are bad folks.  Good folks come in
all types and sizes, and colors.  Some of my friends are black,
and Vietnamese.  Now, to me, I don't notice a difference, because it's
their personalities that I know.

There are bad folks too, and the not so amazing thing is that they
come in all types, sizes and colors too.  I know some black people
that I don't like, and some white people that I don't like.

The biggest cause of prejudice and discrimination is ignorance.  It
works BOTH ways.  

Personally, the only way I think we're gonna beat it, is if the 
world is attacked by aliens, and we all have to band together to
survive....even then we won't beat it, we'll just be hating the
aliens, you know...

It's too bad, cause there's some awfully good folks out there who
never get a chance...

'Nuff said,
'Saw

>No offense Mike, but I meant, I didn't **KNOW** anybody, as in
>met, had beers with....  That's a KNOW in all caps...  You I just
>know, in lower case.  When I get out there, and we have some beers,
>and talk about the Celtics or whatever, then I'll KNOW you ;^) ;^) ;^)
    
    just as long as it isn't as Adam KNEW Eve :-)

�    just as long as it isn't as Adam KNEW Eve :-)

Nah, cause then we have to be getting into all that begetting and begatting
stuff, and it gets too damn confusing!

'Saw

    Well, two very important Propositions were on the table in Arizona
    yesterday.  
    
    1.  Add the MLK holiday, omit the Columbus day holiday (state paid
        holidays for state employees).
    
    2.  Add the MLK holiday, and keep Columbus day as it is.
    
    BOTH were rejected and it appears that Phoenix has lost the '93 Super
    Bowl.  
    
    For the record, I voted against #1 because I felt it would deprive
    Italian-Americans.  I voted for #2.
    
    Mike

    Mike, according to the Worcester T&G, Tagliabue has officially taken
    the Super Bowl away from Phoenix because of the vote.  He said that
    holding the Super Bowl in Phoenix would not be in the best interest of
    the NFL.

    This is the very same NFL that took forever before it hired its very
    first black football coach.
    
    Now it's taking away the Super Bowl from Phoenix because Arizona won't
    celebrate Martin Luther King, Jr Day.
    
    Hypocrisy at its very finest.
    
    Bob Hunt

    I fail to see the connection between selecting a site for the Super
    Bowl and MLK day.
    
    I guess we'll never see the Superbowl in New Hampshire.  :^)
    
    Mark.

    �                          -< Hypocrisy or progress? >-
    
    Good observation.  It certainly seems "progressive" but the NFL has
    rarely, if ever, been on the cutting edge of social progress.   Not
    that it has to but ...
    
    The league took way too long to hire Art Shell and it just seems
    hypocritical that they would now take the high road on an issue they
    tried to ignore for so very long.
    
    Maybe it is "progress" but it's hard to trust the NFL's motives after
    all these years.  I find myself wondering where's their business angle
    in all of this.
    
    Bob Hunt

    
    I guess since I pretty much despise the NFL through-and-through, I'm
    willing to grasp at anything even slightly positive in their actions.
    Maybe that makes me an optimist at heart.
    
    glenn
    

Personally, I'm all for more holidays.  I don't understand
why the people in Arizona didn't want MLK day.  Hell, people,
it's ANOTHER day off, ANOTHER day where you don't have to
come in and face the lizard-pig-dog-boss.....

This country has too little vacation (cf France, Germany etc),
too few holidays, and one long stretch in August with NO holidays.

I mean, if they wanted a holiday for that little Jaboo guy from
Major League, I'd say SURE, let's have a Jaboo Holiday.


Geez, sometimes you wonder where these peoples brains are.
I wouldn't give a damn if they had an Adolf Hitler day, as long
as I didn't have to work....

Get with the program, people!

'Saw

� This country has too little vacation (cf France, Germany etc),
� too few holidays, and one long stretch in August with NO holidays.
    
    But we have far, far more days off than the Japanese have.   Seeing as
    how the Germans and the Japanese are the dominant world economies, it's
    hard to figure out what effect days off have on national productivity.
    
    Maybe we ought to get our butts kicked in a major world war if we want
    to regain the top spot on the economic hilltop.   Seems to have worked
    for the latest "losers" of a big one.
    
    Alas, we digress ...	Oh, that's right, this is SPORTS.
    
    Bob Hunt

    Well, Chainsaw, if you're going to diminish the whole affair to just
    another holiday than to the principle of the matter, namely Martin
    Luther King Jr., I would have voted against it too.
    
    Did you get MLKJ day off this year?  I didn't.  Observing it as "just
    another holiday," all it meant for me was that I didn't get US Mail and
    the liquor stores were closed.
    
    Now, voting for the principle, I would have voted YES.  Depends how the
    thing was worded on the ballot and advertised for and against on TV and
    radio.
    
    	--dan'l

    > Did you get MLKJ day off this year?  I didn't.  Observing it as "just
    > another holiday," all it meant for me was that I didn't get US Mail and
    > the liquor stores were closed.
    
    Bingo!  This is the case almost everywhere and for everyone excepting 
    state and federal employees.  It's also the reason I reject the
    argument that the impending economic doom that would be caused by this 
    extra day outweighs the principle behind the issue.  It's the principle 
    plain and simple.  And as I've said before in here, it's one of the 
    very few instances where I feel shame for my state (New Hampshire).
    
    glenn
    

    Bob Hunt,
    
    Actually, I read in a recent article that the good ol' USA has less
    days off then ANY other industrialized nation - including Japan.
     However - we take our vacations, the Japanese don't.
    
    THis is touchy subject for me.  This country absolutely s*cks when
    it comes to giving the masses time off.  Remember all teh Holidays
    we USED to have?  Veteren's day, Columbus Day, Lincolns AND Washington
    Birthdays -- now instead of those 4 - we get one - Car Sale Day
    (er....I mean President' Day...).    I could go on and on....
    
    JD

    Arizona is really going to pay for this now, and to think it only lost
    by less than 1%!  The NBA is now going to take away the '93 All-Star
    game as well.  The NBA also said they will no longer hold their
    off-season meetings here.  This will also hurt our shot at a MLB
    franchise.  University recruiters will also get hit hard.  What
    minority athlete would want to come here now?
    
    Jerry Colangelo, owner of the Phoenix Suns, summed it up pretty well
    when he said he's embarrassed to be a resident now.  "The whole nation
    looks at us now as a state of racists!"
    
    Colangelo, Bidwill (Cardinals' owner), the sports media, and other
    sports minded-people blame CBS and Mr. Gumbel for the MLK proposition
    losing.  The media claims that pre-election polls showed the MLK
    proposition winning by 8-14%!  The report by Gumbel on Sunday is blamed
    for having a negative impact on voters.
    
    Another question to ponder: Colangelo said that states across the
    country that have the MLK holiday, had it approved by their
    legislatures.  It was never put to popular vote.  He claimed that
    "we've come a long way, but the sad fact is, we still have far to go in
    this country.  I dare say that many states would not have the holiday,
    if it was put to popular vote.  I think the Arizona state legislature
    should just approve the MLK holiday on their own."
    
    Bill Bidwill has petitioned state government to do the same!
    
    Mike

    More on King Day ...
    
    Before I moved to Charlotte, I worked in the Delaware office.   That
    office is regionally headquartered in Washington, DC.   After King Day
    became a Federal holiday, the DC headquarters mandated that the entire
    area would observe that holiday.  Employees had to take that day off
    and they had to use their extra "Patriot's Day" location holiday to do
    it.
    
    Fine, I thought.  I remember wishing that Martin had been born maybe in
    August sometime instead of January but fine, I'll do what I'm told to
    do and he is someone very much worth the honor, to boot.
    
    But no.  I was on a SWS residency at a major customer back then and
    they demanded that their DEC residents report for work that day.  Our
    office caved in and we went to work.  Our secretaries had to keep
    separate records of who worked on that day and who didn't so that the
    "Patriot's Day" holidays could be recorded accurately.
    
    A mess.
    
    Bob Hunt

    � Actually, I read in a recent article that the good ol' USA has less
    � days off then ANY other industrialized nation - including Japan.
    
    I was under the impression that the Japanese work week was from Monday
    *through* Saturday.   Thus, far less time off from work.  Not to
    mention the insanely long hours they work during the week.   Is this
    not true ???   I tend to believe National Geographic.
    
    Re: President's Day ...
    
    I think the Two Great Ones summed it up best.   When Bill asked Ted
    what he knew about George Washington, Ted "Theodore" Logan replied:
    
    	"The dollar bill guy who was born on President's Day, dude."
    
    Bob Hunt

Hey, I'm not saying MLK wasn't a good dude, I'm just saying
that I can't understand why anyone would vote against having
a day off from work....

I mean, for me, there's a ton of people who deserve holidays, 
and the holidays we have should be, like, honored, you know.

I mean, how many people know what Memorial Day is for.  That
to me, along with the 4th of July, are the two *MOST IMPORTANT*
holidays, because, dudes, without those two, no one would
have the CHOICE of whether or not we should have MLK day....

I guess I just don't understand people is all.  I mean, even
if you didn't believe one iota of what MLK was saying (and
I believe his message transcended the color of people's skin)
you still should want a day off from work.....


I'm not positive, but I believe Germany gets at least 4 weeks
vacation, if not 6.....

'Saw

    Bob,
    
    The aticle I read listed vacation times and holidays in major
    countries.  So, perhaps the Japanese do work more days, but get
    more 'vacation' days and holidays then we do.  All in all, even
    if we do have more days off then the Japanese, it isn't anything
    to be happy about.....
    
    JD

    Saw,
    
    	I agree with much of what you have said and understand alot
    	about how this country was built, but please refrain from using
    	"a day off" as part of your argument.  First of all, it is
    	demeaning to the man himself and his ideals.  And second, unless
    	you work for a goverment position you will NOT get the day off
    	until the FEDERAL goverment says it is a holiday.  No state
    	can decide that strongly.
    
    The Wizard

    Mark West, the Phoenix Suns' center, summed it up pretty well.  He
    basically said that Amercia was founded on the creed of equality,
    freedom, and justice.  The MLK holiday is for America, not just blacks. 
    He challenged Americans to stand up for the creed.
    
    A lot of black athletes on the Suns and Cardinals are peeved and said
    on TV interviews that they are not so sure they'll settle down here
    after their careers are over.
    
    Mike

    
    And how about Earth Day where we all send a get-well card to mother
    earth?  And Arbor Day where we should all go out with a six-pack and a
    shovel and plant some trees?  Unfurl the flag on Flag Day!  And how
    'bout St. Patrick's Day, which is as good a reason as any to drink?
    And I always observe Ground Hog Day by grilling some pig-burgers. 8^)
    
    Yep. MLK has my respect, but it sure would be nice to spread out the
    holidays a little better.
    
    Dickster
    

    
    Oh, and don't forget Valentine's Day. Spend it rolling in the hay with
    a loved one.
    

    Attaching a person's name to a given day to call it a holiday is what
    bother's me, especially when the trend has been to substitute a
    person's name with a generic word to best describe the holiday.  A
    perfect example is the renaming of the Washington's birthday holiday to
    President's Day.  Isn't Columbus Day in the process of being called
    Founder's Day, or something like that?  So then, why not simply call
    MLK's birthday Equality Day, or something similar?  That way, everyone
    (I think/hope) would be happy.........
    
    'Saw, I hear ya about the time off that Europeans get.  When I've
    visited my relatives in Hungary, they always had so much vacation time
    available to use up, even after just starting a new job!  I've also
    read that the philosophy behind the typical 2 months/year per person
    vacation time was to keep unemployment low.  Makes a heckuva lot of
    sense to me!
    
    Hawk

>    <<< Note 115.570 by 39292::DHAMEL "Lights are on, but nobody's home" >>>

>    And I always observe Ground Hog Day by grilling some pig-burgers. 8^)
    
    
           <<< OURGNG::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS.NOTE;2 >>>
                 -< OURGNG::SPORTS - Digital's daily tabloid >-
================================================================================
Note 115.571              The Official Super Bowl Note                571 of 572
39292::DHAMEL "Lights are on, but nobody's home"      4 lines   8-NOV-1990 12:10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
>    Oh, and don't forget Valentine's Day. Spend it rolling in the hay with
>    a loved one.
    
    
    
      Hey Dickster,
    
    Let's hope nobody ever gets the wild idea to combine these two, HuH??
    
    Then what would the appropriate thing be to do on the "Day"?????
           
    (8^)*-O
    
    JaKe
    

    
    Make love to a groundhog or kiss a pig.  Your choice.
    
    Dickster
    

    Only in America can they name a holiday after a mass-murderer and
    slave runner.
    
    Mark.

    
    And if you see your shadow, you gotta stay with her for six more weeks.
    

�    Only in America can they name a holiday after a mass-murderer and
�    slave runner.

	And naming a day dedicated to love and hearts and flowers after
a famous Chicago massacre!

Mike JN

    >I was under the impression that the Japanese work week was from Monday
    >*through* Saturday.
    
    It has been that way for a long time.  In recent years though, Japan
    has strived to get their people to enjoy more leisure time and spend
    some money - i.e. become a consumer nation like the US.  The government
    and a number of companies, including DEC,  have switched to a 5-day
    work week instead of 6.  To my knowledge they only have 4 or 5 holidays
    throughout the year, all very ceremonial occasions.
    
    My first night in Tokyo was a Friday night.  As I took a bus from the
    airport to my hotel it wound it's way through various business areas
    around 8 o'clock at night.  It looked like almost all of the offices
    still had lights on and most of them still had a lot of activity
    inside.  My working experiences there confirmed much of this.
    
    Dan

    
    I'm embarassed to be living here now.  I remember after leaving AZ and
    moving to CA, people laughed at how backwards the people are here, and
    things have unfortunately not changed.  The ballot proposition called
    the holiday Civil Rights Day.  It was done to please those who said
    they wouldn't vote for holiday named after someone who wasn't a
    President or founder of the country.  They put two propositions on the
    ballot to placate those who said we shouldn't replace Columbus Day or
    shouldn't have another state holiday.  What they were trying to do was
    take away the excuses from all the bigots who live here. 
    Unfortunately, Gumel's report gave them an excuse.  They were now able
    to say "I ain't not gonna let da NFL tell me what ta do" (that's how
    these people speak, you see Az has a huge amount of uneducated people
    who have a hard time with their native tongue).
    
    I hope we lose the SuperBowl.
    I hope we lose the NBA All Star Game.
    I hope we lose the Cactus League (Cleveland has already announced that
     they are moving to FLA, which will just about kill it anyway).
    I hope this stops us from getting a MLB team.
    I hope ASU's and UA's athletic programs go down the tube (opposing
     recruiters have been using this as a knock off anyway).
    There was to be a credit card center from Citibank moving in here with
     2000 jobs, they are thinking of changing their minds.  I hope they do.
    
    We'll hear excuses that it was going to cost the state tax payers
    money, that Dr. King doesn't deserve a holiday in his name, that
    Arizonans can't be blackmailed, etc.  They are usually preceded by the
    words " I'm not against black people, but..."  They are nothing but
    excuses and lies.  Arizona IS filled with a bunch of racists.
    
    I'm disgusted.
    
    Bruce, stuck in Phoenix, Alabama
      

    What was in the Gumbal report that changed the opinions so?  It's my
    understanding that while Arizona is very ethnically mixed, it has a
    very small black population.  I also heard that the city of Phoenix
    overwhelmingly supported the measures, but the rest of the state is
    what caused it to be defeated.
    
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Meachem the Governer who got
    impeached, or was threatened with impeachement?  What for, and what's
    this bit about a racist church?
    
    Dan

                                              
    I believe the reference was to the Church of Latter Day Saints, which
    as I understand restricted black members (or was it just black deacons?) 
    until, coincidentally, the church head honcho (Spencer Kimble? Kimball?)
    received a visitation from God saying that it was okay to admit them.  
    [If the details here need straightening out, feel free, as this is 
    information relayed to me by an ex-Morman buddy of mine, now firmly
    established as an atheist supposedly as a result of his experiences.]
    
    glenn
    

        Europeans begin jobs with four weeks vacation, including Digital
    employees, and thus do not get burnt out the way poeple do here in the
    US.  One of my high school buddies who has been with Dec for 6 years
    gets 13 weeks a year.  Now that does include holidays, but my God 13
    weeks!!!!  
    
        Japanese do work tremendous hours, but often at the expense of
    their families, and/or their health.
    
    HTH,
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.

    Used ta was, that in Illinois, we didn't get Washington's B-day.  We
    got Lincoln's B-day, for what I hope are obvious reasons, and it was a
    week after the Washington's B-day shebang.  Lots of holidays used to
    occur on a *date* - Columbus Day, Memorial Day, Veteran's Day,
    Independence Day, Christmas, New Year's Day, Patriot's Day.  Only 2 
    "floated" - Labor Day (1st Monday in Sept) and Thanksgiving Day (4th 
    Thursday in November).
    
    Then, about 20 years ago, more or less, someone came up with a
    marvelous productivity idea.  Let's take all those miscellaneous little
    holidays, and make 3-day weekends out of them.  That way working stiffs
    get the chance to go somewhere with the holiday and boost the economy
    by playing tourist.
    
    Blech..  Phtui.  I want the days with *meaning* back!  Veteran's Day on
    Nov 11 - the date of the WWI armistice.  Memorial Day back on May 31.
    
    A&W

   � Then, about 20 years ago, more or less, someone came up with a
   � marvelous productivity idea.  Let's take all those miscellaneous little
   � holidays, and make 3-day weekends out of them.  That way working stiffs
   � get the chance to go somewhere with the holiday and boost the economy
   � by playing tourist.
    
    This was Lyndon Johnson's idea.   And it gave birth to a grisly new
    industry, the "Holiday Traffic Death Statistics".
    
    Bob Hunt

>    What was in the Gumbal report that changed the opinions so?  It's my
    
    He reported during their NFL show on Sunday that, if Arizona didn't
    approve of the MLK Prop., the NFL would take the Super Bowl out of
    Phoenix.  It still lost after this report!  The final vote was split,
    50% Yes, 50% No.  Obviously, not enough for a majority.
    
>    understanding that while Arizona is very ethnically mixed, it has a
>    very small black population.  I also heard that the city of Phoenix
>    overwhelmingly supported the measures, but the rest of the state is
>    what caused it to be defeated.
    
    It wouldn't surprise me.  Arizona has a very strong Hispanic culture.
    
>    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Meachem the Governer who got
>    impeached, or was threatened with impeachement?  
    
    yes that's him!  We don't have a new governor yet either.  The vote was
    so close, that a run-off election may be necessary.
    
    >What for, and what's this bit about a racist church?
    
    Mecham is a member of the LDS (Latter Day Saints), also known as
    Mormons.  To give you an idea on how big they are here, they only build
    temples in areas where the Mormon population reaches a certain level.
    There are only 13 or so in the U.S.A. and 1 of them is here.  Until
    1978, they wouldn't allow blacks in their temples.  The IRS threatened
    to take away their non-profit tax status as a church and suddenly
    Spencer Kimball has a revelation from God that it is okay to let blacks
    in the temple.
    
    Mike

�    Only in America can they name a holiday after a mass-murderer and
�    slave runner.


Duh.  Color me stupid, but who are we talking about?


And anyway, I think we should get more time off from work.


JMHO,
'Saw

    'Saw,
    
    	The 'mass-murderer' is probably Christopher Columbus.
    
    	Not sure who the 'slave runner' is, although it could probably be
    Columbus also.
    
    						 glen j. 

Thanks Glen!

I mean, I knew we didn't have a Ted Bundy holiday.....yet!

8^)

    Columbus it is.
    
    Because he was under such tremendous pressure to find gold in the
    New World, he executed native women and children in order to
    "motivate" the male natives to find gold.
    
    Also, to help finance his excursions to the New World, Columbus
    shipped Indie slaves back to Europe.
    
    And we have a holiday named after him...mahvelous.
    
    Mark.

Hot damn.  Sounds like my kind of guy!

Seriously though, it just goes to prove that everyone (read that
*everyone*) probably has skeletons in their closet.  We all close
our eyes to those that we put up on that pedestal because we're
all afraid to reckon with our own faults....

JMHO,
'Saw

    Gee, thanks Mark.  What I didn't know didn't hurt me.....
    
    Is this something I should enlighten my kids with, so they could bring
    it up in school?
    
    Where, and how, did you get that info?  
    
    Crushed,
    Hawk

    I have a couple of history books at home that document this and
    a lot of other events that happened in history that aren't taught in 
    schools.  I'll list the references when I get back from vacation.
    
    BTW, you wouldn't half the crap that went on during the settlers'
    push west and before the Civil Right's movements.
    
    Mark.

    
    Columbus also died in prison in Santo Domingo of syphilis (acquired
    from the Caribbean natives), right?  He was regarded by his men as
    a ruthless dictator.  Great visionary, perhaps, but Columbus was not
    considered Mr. Wonderful even in his own time.
    
    glenn

    
    > He reported during their NFL show on Sunday that, if Arizona didn't
    > approve of the MLK Prop., the NFL would take the Super Bowl out of
    > Phoenix.  It still lost after this report!  The final vote was split,
    > 50% Yes, 50% No.  Obviously, not enough for a majority.
    
    I didn't see the Gumbel report, but I don't understand how Gumbel is
    responsible for this.  Were the Arizona voters unaware of the NFL's
    intentions?  They have been common knowledge for some time now, debated
    ad nauseum even in this file a year ago.
    
    glenn

The problem with history is that even with 20-20 hindsight we
have selective vision.  It is very difficult for us to deal
with shortcomings in our heroes.  And as a society and species
we need heroes.

So, we tend to ignore that which makes our heroes seem less
than we imagine.  The moral dilemma I suppose then, is deciding
if the great and good things these individuals did outweighs
that which we would perceive as bad.

We must also remember that things we would see as bad today, may
have beena accepted norms of the time.  Personally, I think that
Thomas Jefferson was one of the greatest men of all time.  He
was a brilliant man, who obviously authored one of the greatest
documents of all time, in addition to being a true renaissance
man.  Yet he kept slaves.  Nowadays, the notions of slavery
is disgusting.  Yet in those times, in the area where he lived,
it was considered the norm.  Does that make him less than
what he was?   Personally, I don't think so.

The same holds true for anyone else... including Martin Luther King.

However, I still cannot fathom why Arizona would vote this down.
To me it does not make sense.  Perhaps people were just frenzied up
about the whole thing and weren't thinking clearly????

Just some opinions,
'Saw

    I spent my vacation in the Carribean this year.  One rainy day I went
    to the UVI (that's University of the Virgin Islands) bookstore and
    bought a book on Carribean history.
    
    Plain and simple, Columbus was a dolt and a real jerk.  He insisted
    until the day he died that he had discovered the islands that were
    right off the coast of China.  He was so obsessed with this vision that
    he communicated back to Europe that he had discovered these islands and
    that there was more gold than you could imagine.  In actuallity, most
    of the gold that was there was already being used as jewelry by the
    native "indians."  When this vision didn't come to be, he basically
    anihilated the indians.
    
    Had Columbus just sailed west a little further, he would have 
    discovered either Florida or Mexico.  Instead, he waisted his time on
    these little islands and insisted he had found the new route to Asia.
    In the meantime, old Hernando and Ponce did the real work of discovering
    America.
    
    Teach that to your kids.
    
    	--dan'l

    One other thing about Christopher Columbus ...
    
    He was, arguably, the greatest dead reckoning navigator of all time. 
    The man's ability to know where he had been, where he was, and where he
    was going on the ocean was uncanny.
    
    I wasn't aware of the slave-running and other atrocities, though.  Not
    surprising.
    
    Bob Hunt

    
    Gee, funny how they don't fill us in on the Columbus skeletons in the
    Knights of Columbus initiations.  To hear them tell the story, you'd
    think he was a living saint.  My, my, this *is* revealing.
    
    Dickster
    

    I never could understand why we honored Columbus.  There were maps
    of the eastern coastline of both North and South America hundreds
    of years before he was born.  Thanks to those real nice people known
    as Vikings.
    
    The Wizard

    Dan'l:
    
    The Virgin Islands, Huh???  Isn't that where they send all of the old
    hookers to be recycled??????????????
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Re: Columbus
    
    If you did something about his day, you would offend all the
    Italian-Americans.  It is too late now.  The leader of the MLK
    opponents said he was a "womanizer and an adulterer".  Go figure.
    
    Re: Arizona
    
    If you know the "redneck" personality, you'll understand why 50% of
    Arizona decided that no NFL would push them around, even if there was
    $250 million on the line.
    
    A compromise is in the works now (isn't it great how $money$ motivates
    people?).  It involves naming the 3rd Monday of January to "Civil Rights 
    Day" (sound familiar?) and will honor MLK as well as Lincoln.  
    Washington's birthday will become "President's Day" and will honor 
    Washington as well as Lincoln.  Good ole Abe gets the shaft here.
    
    Mike

    Wow, guess I missed alot not going to college!  :-)
    
    No, I don't think I'll spoil my kids' childhoods with these not so well
    known facts.  It'd be like insisting to my 6 year old that there
    absolutely is no Santa.  They'll find out about things in time.......
    
    Anyone for a Super Bowl get-together?  :-)
    
    Hawk

In Fourteen hundred and ninety two
Columbus sailed the ocean blue
In the Nina, the Pinta and the Santa Maria,
When he found land he said "Mamma Mia"

In fourteen hundred and ninety three
Columbus wanted some gold for free
So he killed him some natives and then told
the rest of them to find the gold

In fourteen hundred and ninety four
Columbus needed a whole lot more
so he sold him some slaves to pay the freight
and he sailed and sailed till he met his fate

In nineteen hundred and ninety, this year,
About Columbus we're starting to hear
All these bad things that people say,
but I still want to stay home on Columbus day....

    In the year 2525...  
    
    sorry wrong note ;-)

Sir Walter Raleigh died for the sins of Christopher Columbus. His big
mistake was getting found out while still alive. They named a capitol,
half an airport and a cigarette after Walt while, with much better press,
Chris gets a a capitol - I guess that's some default, here - and a legal
holiday but has to be associated with cocaine and a bad football team.

TTom

Musta dozzzed right through the notes on European vacation...

I think the lowest common denominator is the basic four weeks that everyone
everywhere in Europe gets.

Then we get Easter, National Day, whatever.  Some countries get lots like
France, UK, etc..  In Switzerland we only get about 4 days plus Xmas and Easter.

Then, our offices in some countries close between Christmas and New Year.

Also, here we get one day more for every two years worked with DEC and I 
imagine there is a similar arrangement in most countries.
 
Otherwise, it depends on the country.  I know that Engineers in Germany get
47 days vacation because I was in a meeting discussing it the other day
(Productivity is 180 days per year.).  
   
Someone mentioned increasing vacation to keep unemployment down.  I believe
in Holland they decreased the work week to 37.5 hours in order to protect some
jobs.

rick ellis

    I learned over the weekend that the cities of Phoenix and Tempe DO have
    a MLK holiday.  It just isn't a paid holiday.  
    
    The issue here is a statewide day.  Tagliabue(sp?) was reminded that
    the 2 cities above have the holiday, but he said anything less than a
    statewide day is unacceptable.
    
    Mike

    Anyone have that Silver Anniversery Super Bowl Team?  They did it on
    Monday night and last night on ESPN but I missed them both.
    
    Thanks.
    
    	--dan'l
    
    PS: If you don't have the whole list, reply with who you remember at
    what position.  We should end up with a complete list sooner or later.

    Lynn Swann was on of the receivers
    Franco Harris RB
    Mike Webster
    
    Defense
    Joe Green
    L C Greenwood
    Mel Blount
    Jack Ham
    Jack Lambert
     
    That's all I remember
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Add Donnie Shell, too
    
    
    JaKe
    

    There were nine Steelers, about 5 raiders, about 4 packers and some
    others.
    
    Joe Montana
    Jerry Rice
    
    The Wizard

         Randy White DT
         Too Tall Jones DE

Chuck

    
    Special teams
    
    Punter - Ray Guy - Raiders
    Kicker - Jon Stenerude (sp??) - Kansas City Chiefs
    Return Man - John Taylor - SF 49'ers
    
    Off. Line
    
    Art Shell - Raiders
    
    That's all I remember...
    
    oilpan
    

fullback Larry Csonka
linebacker Mike Singletary

    
    And Dierdork was bitching about players who didn't make it to the SB
    were overlooked (that was the whole idea, wasn't it?).
    
    I think Jerry Kramer was on the OL, and Lott was a DB.