Conference 7.286::sports_90

         
    First of all, I am basically a "Read Only" noter.  I enjoy all of
    the sports knoweledge that most of you can report to this note.
    
    I also enjoy reading the bashing and ranking of 2 or more noters
    because it is quite funny at times.  But, there has to be a limit
    to the verbal usage that one chooses when entering a note. I don't
    think the junk notes are a problem.  Just try to refrain from swearing
    all of the time and it will make the moderators job easier and everyone
    will be happier.
    
    I also think the personal views of one noter to another should be
    kept to thmselves if it will cause a problem.  We're not here to
    cause trouble.  Just to have some on the job entertainment.
    
    Keep up the good work MOD's
    
    JMHO
    
    -Rick
    

    1. Are there too many JN's?

	Yes
    
    2. Are the moderators being too strict?

	No
    
    3. Should the moderators set hidden notes that contain derogatory 
       comments about particular groups of people or can the sports
       noters handle this kind of stuff?
 
       It doesn't matter if the sports noters can 'handle' it.  All that 
       matters is if it is apropriate for a Digital Notesfile.  
    
    4. Should personal attacks be eliminated entirely, or can two adults
       deal with it without running to personnel. Or, for that matter, do
       the rest of us care to read them.

	IMO, they don't beling in the notes file.  The conference is for the
        discussion of sports, not sports noters. Take them to mail.  Big Mac's
        comment about using the SEND command is a real good one.
    
    5. Does anyone have any legitimate suggestions to make this a better
       conference.

	If everyone would keep to discussing sports, use common sense and 
        respect fellow noters (even if they don't respect their opinions) I 
        don't think there would be a problem.  Also if a moderator says 
        to stop a discussion or deletes a notes, don't start whining in the
        notes file and being antagonistic towards him/her.  Send mail and 
        discuss the matter instead.  

I don't think the moderators are being to strict.  I do however, feel, 
that since the amount of moderators increased, there have been, at times,
mixed messages.

As I previously stated, when we had two moderators, there was a unified
policy.  Now, with 5+ moderators, there are some who prefer to call
a tight game (ie. the exact LETTER of the LAW) and some who prefer to
call a looser game (i.e. the SPIRIT of the LAW). 

All I am saying is for the moderators to decide what approach they
are going to take.

I *know* moderating is a hard job.  I applaud all the efforts of the
moderators.  Let's just pick ONE message.


Now, for the noters, I'd suggest handling this file the way you would
handle a bar.  While I suppose that some people would enjoy a bar
fight, I tend to avoid them, since it messes up my manly good looks,
and the fines and jail time for assault gets expensive (not to
mention the civil suits)....  But anyway, if you're talking sports
in a bar, while you might disagree, you do try to keep things fairly
respectful...

So, try the same thing in here.  It's fun to kiddingly bash someone
ABOUT their team, but you shouldn't bash THEM.....


Well, that's JMHO,
Chainsaw

    
    When's that baseball conference coming?  (No rush, just wondering...)
    
    glenn
    

    This conference, OURGNG::SPORTS, is a release for most of us.  
    
    I personally feel it should be viewed as an employee benefit available
    to all employees.  It certainly is not as vital an employee benefit as
    a good health insurance plan but, considering the amount of time some
    of us spend in here, it's probably worth an extra vacation day or two.
    
    I feel gratified to know that I work for a company that would allow
    such a forum as OURGNG::SPORTS.   Believe me, I've been resident at
    some of our customers that use VAX Notes very heavily.  No such
    conference would even be considered let alone allowed to flourish.
    
    The only potential source of harm to OURGNG::SPORTS is ourselves. 
    Remember that.  We should feel fortunate it's here and we should all do
    our very best to ensure its survival.  The only way to do that is to
    treat your fellow Noters with the respect and consideration they
    deserve as your colleagues and as human beings.
    
    Bob Hunt
    

    Good note Bob, as usual.
    
    Mark.

    I hope the NFL playoffs are over soon.  I wasn't a noter for the
    1987 Super Bowl between the Broncos and Giants, but I went back
    and looked at the old conference and couldn't believe a lot of the
    stuff I saw.  I agree with JD, it gets worse during the NFL playoffs,
    as I've noticed over the last couple of years.
    
    It's gotten to the point where I next unseen over most of the team
    notes unless the first unseen entry in a team note is something
    I'm interested in reading.  I've also developed a really strong
    bias against the Broncos, Browns and Oilers over the last couple
    of weeks.  Nothing against the teams, it's the verbiage I've been
    seeing in their notes.  The sad part is that I may be missing something
    that I'd really want to read.
    
    For those of you who do nothing but chest thumping with "my team
    is better than yours, your team ****s," think before you enter that
    entry.  If your team is attacked, try to ignore it.
    
    I echo Frank as well with the moderators - please decide how you're
    going to play it, strict letter of the law all the way to anything
    goes.  Neither extreme is good, any position in the middle is good,
    as long as it's consistent.
    
    Finally, the profanity level is creeping upward and I think it would
    be smart if we all watched out for it.  Unlike being verbal, where
    the word disappears as soon as it's said, this is written and has
    the ability to come back and haunt you.
    
    John

Thanks, John.  Well said.  I think this topic has been beaten to death.
As for the non-uniformity of moderation, guilty.  A SHOW MODERATOR was quite
surprising.  I didn't realize there were so many.  I for one don't believe in
the group moderator approach but I'll see what I can do to help make it work.

If you're keeping someone like John Hendry from participating in the football
notes, you should really question the benefits of the notes which do so.  I see
no reason for a note's entire content to be "XXY sucks".  Why not present some
interesting information that people who aren't fans of the team might be
interested in?  Like "JD Haircut got hurt yesterday shaving and will miss the
remainder of the season so the Albuquerque Frankways will suck in Sunday's
game". 

I could never figure out why I pray for Denver, Houston, and Cleveland to be
eliminated early.  I used to like some of those teams.

j.

    Definitely too many junk notes, IMO.  I'd imagine most others who are
    mostly read-only would agree.  I spend most of my time in here hitting
    the next unseen key, usually after just glancing at the topic.....
    
    I thought one of the premises when this version of SPORTS opened was to
    be an attempt to reduce such clutter??  I was out last week, and came
    back to something like 1186 unread notes.  FOUR LOUSY WORKING DAYS, and
    days when many are off.......
    
    -- dg

    FWIW, although there are a bunch of moderators (and I deleted Whitehair
    at his request), most of the moderating has been done by Big_Mac and
    Needle. This is not to point fingers, only to point out that there
    really isn't as much of a mixed message as many think.
    
    I prefer not to moderate, and I read only a few topics, so I asked for
    help with moderating. Riggen is a moderator since it's officially his
    system. That leaves Gaulke, MacNeal, Needle, and May_Br as moderators
    and I don't really think that there is much disagreement among the
    moderators as to what belongs here and what doesn't.
    
    The bottom line is, Jeff and Keith are doing most of the work of
    moderating the conference and thereby relieving me and the others.
    Personally, I appreciate their efforts. 
    
    And, I think that between us (the noters and the moderators), we can
    come up with some clearly defined rules that we all can live by.
    
    And, don't forget, when one of the moderators deletes or sets hidden a
    note, they may be saving your butt, or saving the conference. None of
    the moderators will delete a note just for the sake of doing it or just
    to pick on you. Your interests, the moderators interests, and the
    conference interests are being considered when a moderator takes
    action.
    
    JoJ

    I agree with the opinion that if you wouldn't post something with your
    name on it on a bulletin board, you shouldn't post it in a notes file.
    
    Mike and Bob had good points and I'd agree with them.
    
    	Ted (usually NEXTED_UNSEEN only)
    

I don't mind the junk notes too much. At least not the ones that are (trying
to be) humorous. The ones saying "XXX sucks" get old real fast though. After
reading the Cleveland/Denver wars lately, I can appreciate alot more how
people used to get upset with all the Patriot fans a few years ago.

On moderator actions, I only have one small complaint(?). Why was the NOTY
note set nowrite? I think Jeff's a nice guy and all but, I think it's a bit
too much to shut down a note because it _might_ generate junk notes.
Especially when it's a note we have every year without major problems. Aren't
we going to have a NOTY this year? I would ask the moderators to wait until
there really is a problem before taking action instead of write-locking a note
before there is a problem.

JMHO

Pete (Captain Video)

P.S. If there is going to be no NOTY vote this year, I claim the award. If
     Metz can buy the award, I can steal it. :^)

    Speaking for myself as a moderator, I will always set a note hidden and
    contact other moderators and the author before any further action was
    taken.  I won't go in and just delete a note.  This should, I hope,
    reduce any "mixed messages".  
    
    As a reminder - read the excerpt of the DEC Policy on notes in Topic
    69.  Check out the personnel policies in VTX or in your manager's or
    local personnel office.  They spell out pretty well what shouldn't be
    in NOTES.  And above all, remember one of DEC's main policies - DO THE
    RIGHT THING.

    I've read this topic, and I know some of this is directed at me,
    so I'll speak my piece :
    
    I think part of the fun in SPORTS is the trash-talking and
    chest-thumping, WITHIN MODERATION. Some people drink a beer, some
    smoke, I like to yank chains and kick over icons, as you all are
    aware of (Celtic-bashing, for example).
    
    I like to think that I also enter quite a few *substantive*,
    anayltical notes (which I don't always get credit for), more than
    some anti-JN's do.  And that I try to stay above the belt, and I
    when I engage in a war with other noters, I don't enter 100 notes
    in 20 different topics saying, "Has ______ played ______ lately ?"
    
    Or "________ sucks !" Or extended pesonal attacks.
    
    I used to have a lot of fun trading friendly insults, because it
    seemed that we all knew where the line was drawn. But not any more.
    
    I come back from a 10-day vacation, and I have God-knows-how-many
    unseen notes, and most of them are personal attacks. 
    
    Repetetive, boring, and a few based on sheer ignorance.
    
    [NOTE : I have not, and will not name names. NOR AM I SAYING THAT
    ALL OF THE NOTES WERE OF THAT NATURE, OR WAS NECESSARLY UNDESERVED.]
    
    In one case, a noter 'threatened' me with personel, because I had
    the gall to reply and repell the B.S.
    
    That made me stop and think. 
    
    And like Bob said, a notes conference is a gift and a privledge.
    DON'T ABUSE IT ! They've done it in SOAPBOX for so long, that now,
    Corporate made them conform strictly to the guidlelines.
    
    It was either that, or be shut down.
    
    Do we really want that for SPORTS ?
    
    I think it's a shame that I (and others) will have to lay off friendly
    razzing of other noters, because a few of us either go out of control,
    or can't take what they shovel.
    
    I respect John Hendry's opinion a lot, and if he's that turned off
    by my favorite team because of the recent crap that's gone down,
    I think that all gulity parties had better reexamine themselves.
    
    DrM

    1. Are there too many JN's?
   
       At the moment, yes.     
 
    2. Are the moderators being too strict?
    
       How many moderators are there?  I think there should be 2.   
       I only see 1 moderator acting as moderator.  To answer the question...
       No.

    3. Should the moderators set hidden notes that contain derogatory 
       comments about particular groups of people or can the sports
       noters handle this kind of stuff?
    
       If someone has a brain cramp and goes over the edge, do something
       about it.  I'm way sick of all the kinder, gentler bs and the
       references to "the classiest noters".  I sometimes wonder how old
       some of you are.

    4. Should personal attacks be eliminated entirely, or can two adults
       deal with it without running to personnel. Or, for that matter, do
       the rest of us care to read them.
    
       See above.  There isn't any place for personal attacks.  I don't
       care to read them and don't if I can help it.

    5. Does anyone have any legitimate suggestions to make this a better
       conference.

       Make some clear rules.  Some people have to have thier hands held.
       Have 2 moderators that have been around for a while (couple years
       at least).
    
    Please feel free to respond, air your views, etc...
    
       I'm down to putting in the hockey scores and that's it.  It's
       not the way I want it but I have nothing to offer to the NFL
       name calling notes and kinder-gentler notes and that's all 
       there seems to be.
   
       I've been around here for three years.  Things have changed in
       SPORTS and change is good, most of the time.  
    
       Karen  

>>On moderator actions, I only have one small complaint(?). Why was the NOTY
>>note set nowrite? 

I am a nice guy, Pete ;^).  The reason I shut it down was because the vote was
taken in the old SPORTS and voting was closed.  No one bothered to tally the
votes.  Anyone's welcome to go back and tally them.  The note in question was
just started to rile some feathers.

j.

    1. Are there too many JN's?
   
Yes, a little busting is fine but there seems to be a bad habit 
of over-kill. Example Mr. T's no-line responses, a very clear 
junk-noter.
 
    2. Are the moderators being too strict?
    
No, a tighter hand is needed. Let's talk sports!

    3. Should the moderators set hidden notes that contain derogatory 
       comments about particular groups of people or can the sports
       noters handle this kind of stuff?

See the notesfile hank book, its quite clearly written. The 
question should read is there a place for that in here. I think 
not.    

    4. Should personal attacks be eliminated entirely, or can two adults
       deal with it without running to personnel. Or, for that matter, do
       the rest of us care to read them.

Ther is not need for personal attacks in there. Example Dr. 
Midnight, He took the ribbing that everyone gave him, I didn't 
read anywhere that he was going to personal. And the Notesfile 
hand book covers this also.
    

    5. Does anyone have any legitimate suggestions to make this a better
       conference.

The basic idea is great, the problem is that the noters do not 
stick to the bacis reason of this file. Roy Karlson will not 
bother with this file because of all the garbage inbetween the 
good sports information, thoughts, and reports about the teams.
    
    Please feel free to respond, air your views, etc...

I don't bother writing that much because I don't have time to 
read all the replies. In here I am sticking to the subject 
matter. 

           REK
    

     No Comment............  I'm glad I only hang around 
    for football season though, as I'm sure many of you are 
    too.
    
    Later

    As I mentioned in an earlier note, I don't get in much anymore and
    I don't ever recall reading this many JNs in any of the previous
    versions of SPORTS; in fact, this kind of topic note was never
    needed until now.  This is not to imply that I don't enjoy reading
    some of the humorus comments about some of our beloved home-town
    heros (Elway, Kosar et al), because some of them are truly funny.

    I don't think it's the NUMBER of JNs, but the redundancy of most
    of them (XXX sucks!). How many ways can you say Kosar or Elway
    suck? (I'm almost ashamed to admit that some of the recent Kosar
    bashing has made me pull for the guy!) However, emotional
    reactions and responses to our teams are part of the reason we're
    all in here and I also don't want to see these reactions stifled.

    Re: moderator actions.  I think the moderators are doing a fine
    job trying to keep a handle on the discussions in this conference.

    I still suggest creating some 'drivel' notes that noters that can
    freely and readily contribute to without fear of the dreaded 'set
    note hidden' command!

    My 02�.

    Dale

    1.  Yep, too many JN's.  But, as already mentioned in other notes,
    this happens every year when the NFL playoffs start.  It'll fade
    after the SB.  It does happen a lot around the WS, too, but only
    when favorite teams of many noters are involved.  
    
    The one's that tire me out are those that don't relate to anything
    in particular, like the K&G ones, and the girly-mon ones.  These
    may be cute for a short time, but they get old real fast.  Noters
    should keep in mind that "IN" JN's aren't meaningful to the majority
    of noters.  These tend to pop-up after some sort of get-together.
    I've been guilty of these, too.  So, I'll try to either not enter
    such types, or at least hold them to a minimum.
    
    2.  I don't think the moderators are too strict, in fact, they may
    be too loose in some areas, like swearing.  I doubt that a noter
    would go to personnel about someone saying their team is lousy,
    or even that it sucks.  But when other descriptives get in here,
    they may be personally offensive.  So let's keep it cleaner than
    we have.
    
    3.  No problem with "set hidden", when it's warranted.  Do the
    moderators notify the writer that it's happened, and why?  Is it
    open for discussion between the moderator and originator?
    
    4.  I don't care to read personal attacks that are in a serious
    vein.  They don't belong in here, anyway.  I've entered a few over
    the years, and truly regret them, except for the one to Hoot about
    what to do to a rolling doughnut (only kidding, Hoot!)   :*)  

    5.  I happen to think that this is the best conference in Notes.
    I've been in here for about 5 years, and I would have to say that
    we've been VERY fortunate to have the type of moderators we've had
    during that time.  And I mean all of them.  I don't want to forget
    anyone, so I won't get into any names.  But all of the mods have
    been great, probably because they were/are sports fans, and therefore
    understand what a sports noter is all about.  We are different than
    noters in other conferences.  

    I've attended a few get-togethers, and will be at more of them. 
    I've also talked to some noters on the phone, people that I'll probably
    never meet face to face.  I expect to meet others when I get to
    visit their facility.  None of these things would/could happen if
    it weren't for SportsNotes.
    
    So, thanks for this conference, and let's work together to keep
    it going in the spirit that we all enjoy.
    
    Lee

    In defense of MrT, who really doesn't need my help, but........
    
    I can't believe you singled him out REK, for his p_name 1-liners.  I
    recall that, not too long ago, you singled him out then for his 
    200-liners.  It's obvious that you have something personal against 
    this guy and are trying to crusade the rest of us against him.  Sorry,
    but you are way wrong.  And sorry, for singling you out here, but
    knowing your sensitivty level, you won't lose any sleep, I'm sure.....
    
    Hey, at least T doesn't start any stupid "My Wife Brought Home A Dog"
    notes.
    
    JMO.
    
    Hawk
    
    P.S.  Mod's, if this is too offensive, go right ahead and delete it.

Hawk es mas macho!



El Chainsaw

    My .02:
    
    I think this is a great conference that could be even better without
    so many personal attacks that outsiders like me know nothing about.
    Although I've never met or talked to the "stars" of this conference(and
    paraphrasing Billy Crystal "gentlemen,you know who you are"),I feel
    like I know quite a bit about these people and would enjoy meeting
    them because we have a lot in common. That is the best part of Sport
    Notes.

        I enjoy discussing sports and this is a great outlet from the rigors
    of everyday work.I learn a great deal about teams from other parts
    of the country and I DO enjoy much of the JNing. It adds a little
    spice to the games when you know what the Sports Notesfile will
    be like if Denver or Cleveland loses.
    
    IMHO,if the personal attack notes could be moved to mail then this
    conference will rise to even greater heights. The moderators have
    to step in quickly,when a note gets too ridiculous. 
    
    THANK YOU MODERATORS!!!

     Hawk, I don't have any personal against him. With Mr. T its either
    one line or 200 what is his problem.  And I should congratulate
    you on re:23 Its got to be a first for you to post a note with out
    you mentioning  beer.  There is hope yet.
    
                     REK

    Reply .23 is a good example of something that could be handled with
    MAIL.

    That's why I wrote .23, Mac, so we all can see a good example of what
    should be discussed in mail......  :-)
    
    Sorry, REK, I guess I don't understand you at all.......
    
    Hawk

>>    3.  No problem with "set hidden", when it's warranted.  Do the
>>    moderators notify the writer that it's happened, and why?  Is it
>>    open for discussion between the moderator and originator?

Speaking for myself, if I hide a note the author is immediately informed by
mail.  If he can persuade me that I'm wrong (yeah, right ;^) then I'd certainly
unhide the note.

j.

    < Note 100.26 by NRADM::KING "No dog after all....." >


    Big Mac, JoJ, Jeff, et. al., I'm sorry but I can't let the following
    slide without comment:
        
>     Hawk, I don't have any personal against him. With Mr. T its either
>    one line or 200 what is his problem.  And I should congratulate
>    you on re:23 Its got to be a first for you to post a note with out
>    you mentioning  beer.  There is hope yet.
>    
>                     REK

    Out of all the things that I've ever read in any note, this has
    got to be the most idiotic note I've seen yet.
    
    If this isn't cause for shutting down a notes conference, I've never
    seen one.
    
    You moderators sure have a thankless task.
    
    Adios, guys, it's been fun.
    
    Mark.

Noter (to Jeff):   No WAY REF...whatta ya got cataracts...no way was 
		   my hand on the guy, and besides he couldn't a caught
	           the ball anyway....

Jeff:		   It was interference, now get outta my face....

Noter:		   Aw REF, you're mother wears army boots!

Jeff:		   Now you did it...you can talk about my dog, my clothes,
	           my beer, but you can't talk about my MOM....

		   YOU'RE SET HIDDEN!!!!

                          -< Hide Eggs... Not Notes! >-
                                  ^^^^

Is this so the spermatazoa cannot find the ovum to fertilize it?

I'm confused....

�   Is this so the spermatazoa cannot find the ovum to fertilize it?
                   ^^^^^^^^^^^
�   I'm confused....    |
                        |
                        |
                        |
                       Now `I'M' confused. I thought that was some kind of 
                                           Italian Ice Cream?!?!?!?

Mike JN

PS  Meanwhile, the Spumoni slowly and painfully makes its way through the
floppy tubes; crawling over concertina wire, jumping over mines, coughing and
sneezing from the gas, through ice, mud, and snow or we pay the tow.

Hah!...... Ya gotta love the little palookas!

     Couldn't agree more, Steven.....   
    
     I do however think that this topic shouldn't be broached
    in ::SPORTS........  would we post the last few replies on
    the bullenten board at work.   ;^)
    
    Just kidding Moderators.... Don't feel you have to do 
    something on my account.
    
    Big Game

              YOU WANT SPUMONI ALL OVER THE *BULLETIN BOARD*!!!

GET A LIFE, HUNTER!
     MIKE JN

PS.  Personal attack to follow via MAIL

     You get a Life Mike JN,
    
     Oh yea, I forgot you live in Rastle Cock....  you can't 
    even get a clue there, let alone a life.  You're a Jerk,
    Jerk Off...     ;^)  ;^)
    
    Big Game
    
    P.S.  No Personal attack to follow.....  I finished it right 
         here and now, you bum !!
    

    Re:30 Mark, you're too modest! You have written some stupid things
    yourself so please don't let me take all the credit for writing.
    "idiotic" notes.
    
    So lets get back to .0 The basic concern is Junk noting. Like Frank
    and his love for Bundy thank god for the next-unseen button. 
    The "rules" in here may have to be looked at and revised to fall
    into DEC policies and procedures. 
    
    Now another question, can my first paragraph in this reply be
    considered a "personal attack? I think it can be. Is Mark's second
    paragraph in reply 30 be considered a personal attack? Maybe. I
    think its time to take a good look at the direction where this
    file is heading  and turn it around to where it really should be
    going. SPORTS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
      OK, I'm getting down off my soapbox....

re .43:

REK, you slay me ;^)  (and your mom wears fuzzy slippers ;^) :^) )

But alas, as all things must end, so my infatuation with Kelly Bundy
has ended.

Right now, in my quest for young, nubile talent, I've settled on
Courtney Thorne-Smith, the young lady who played the dance instructor
on LA Law last week.  I've seen her in films and am smitten.

You heard it here first.

Chainsaw

PS  Regarding personal attacks, people should realize that when going
    to personnel there must be more than just the "impression" that  
    you've been attacked.  Regardless of the rooles, if it came down
    to a legal arena (ie suit is brought outside of DEC), there would
    have to be proof of malice, and that's always hard to prove...

    

     `Saw,
    
     You should try Smutten......  It's just like Smitten,
    But a little dirtier.....
    
    Big Game