Conference 7.286::sports_90

    The big blue wrecking crew will cream Bo & the traitors this week
                               Giants 24
                               Traitors 10

     The Giants have to be the BEST Team in the NFL at this point.
    Phil Simms is without question the toughest and most talented
    QB to ever play Pro Foot-A-Ball, PERIOD !!!  The Giants with 
    CRUSH the Faiders so bad this weekend that Uncle Al will still
    be looking for his team come training camp.  Count on IT !!
    It won't even be close......
    
    
       		Best Team Ever (GIANTS)    	48
    
    		Sorryest Team Ever (FAIDERS)     3
    
    
    Go Giants !!!!
    Go Giants !!!!
    Go Giants !!!!
    Go Giants !!!!
    Go Giants !!!!
    
    
    Big Game

    
    
    San Fran is the best team in the NFL period. They will prove that
    again with another Super Bowl this year and shatter my one claim to
    faim that the Steelers were the only team to win 4 super bowls...
    oh well

>>    < Note 85.1 by WR2FOR::DIAS_MI >
>>                          -< jints know football !! >-
>>
>>    The big blue wrecking crew will cream Bo
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    I hope not...I'm looking for a safe and merry Christmas.  :-)
    
    Bo

    Giants are 6-1 at home.  Raiders are 1-6 on the road.  'Nuff said.
    
    Giants 22, Raiders 9.
    
    
    py

    Go Gints !!!
    
    Big game
    
    Knock Howie out of the game and into the hospital........
    
    

    
    	beleive it or not i think the NY Giants had the toughest schedule
    of ALL the NFL teams.  They played at least once all of the top
    7 NFL teams according to record:
    
    	San Fran (14-2), Rams (11-5), 2 Philadelphia (11-5), 
    	Denver (11-5), Minnesota (10-6), Green Bay (10-6),
    	2 Washington (10-6)         
    
    sean
    	

    You know who looked good on Sunday?  Cross (forget his first name), the
    third string tight end.  Where did the Giants get him?  Could be a
    player to watch in the future.
    
        
    py

    Paul,
        Cross (Howard) was this year's 6th round pick out of 
    Alabama. Although it might not be true (one season isn't a
    true test), he's gotten a reputation as having hands of stone.  
    The only reason he's received more playing time is because Bavaro's
    on IR and Mowatt's been less than 100%.
    
    Bull
    

    
    He made the team because of his blocking skills and the fact that the 
    Giants planned to use two tight end formations as part of their
    offensive package so they need a third TE for insurance. This is the
    first game where he has come up big on the receiving end.....
    
    Bavaro can be activated for the playoffs hopefully he is ready....
    More important is the rest for LT, the secondary looks great when
    LT can get pressure. Also Allegre should be back which will give
    the Giants a longer leg for FG as well every kick not being an
    adventure.....
    
    mike

    
    	RE: Sean,
     The Giants did not play the Pack, and Bull, your right about
    Cross, 6th rounder outa Bama.
    						Bubba

    Cross = next_scott_brunner
    

>    	beleive it or not i think the NY Giants had the toughest schedule
>    of ALL the NFL teams.  They played at least once all of the top
>    7 NFL teams according to record:
    
>    	San Fran (14-2), Rams (11-5), 2 Philadelphia (11-5), 
>    	Denver (11-5), Minnesota (10-6), Green Bay (10-6),
>    	2 Washington (10-6)         
    
>    sean
 
    Good point Sean, despite the GB error.  Where are all those detractors
    from early on in the season (like Dan S.) who were deriding the
    Giants for having an easy schedule?  With that schedule and the
    2nd best record in the NFL they were impressive.  All that it means
    right now is one home game, though.
    
    Bruce

    Giants All The Way......  Got To Be The Best Team In Foot-A-Ball !!
    
    
    Big Game

    Look for the Rams to pull the surprise (to date) of the playoffs and
    beat the Giants this weekend.  I'm not a Giant-hater, but the Rams
    have come East, played in lousy weather, and won .... two weeks in a
    row.  The Giants can't run the ball ..... the Rams have got to be
    feeling real confident.
    
    
    Greg

    Gotta be the best team in Foot-A-Ball.....  Go Giants !!
    
    Big Game

    Greg,
    I've got to disagree with ya. The Giants do have a good ground 
    game. It's not a "great" running attack, but it gets the job done. 
    I will admit though, that if you shut done the run, the Giants can 
    be in trouble. Trust me. It won't happen Sunday...I hope. :^>
    
    Bull
    

     Never Happen.......  The Giants are without question the 
    best team in football at this moment !!
    
    Big Game
    
    

    Jack, shaddup with this Giants bested team crap.
    
    Or, I'm gonna tell.
    
    JoJ

    
    Josh, Just because Big Game has seen the light, and recoginizes true
    talent, you shouldn't pick on him. You think a guy like yourself
    would have converted by now too....
    
    ;^)
    
    mike

    Converted to the Giants? Me? ha ha ha ha, not with that Alda smooching
    qB they have.
    
    Fo-get-it.
    
    JoJ

    	The 300 lbs. Giants line is gonna push those quiche eating,
    slimfast drinking, GQ pretty boys all over Giants Stadium.  Lay the
    3�.
    
    				/Don

    I heard that the weather will not be a factor in the Giants game. 
    
    Anybody else heard about a warming trend ???
    
    

    Can Morris play this weekend?

    
    
         Walt, Morris was injured in preseason and was lost for the 
    entire season.  Forget what the injury was.  
    
         Bavaro is also out until next year.  He will be having knee
    surgery very shortly.
    
                                                 Glen J.
    

     JoJ,  You must see the light.....  There is no better team
    than the New York Giants.
    
    Big Game

>     JoJ,  You must see the light.....  There is no better team
>    than the New York Giants.
    
    Big Game, to us true nickname-toting fans in the GIANTS conference,
	it's the New York Football Giants :^)

	HTH
	Jim M

    I knew that, but somewhere I thought I read he would be eligible to
    come off the IR for the playoffs... maybe not...
    
    _Walt

    How effective would they be if they were healthy enough to play? They
    missed too many games and would be totally useless.

    Last night Jim Burt was interviewed regarding the Viking-49er's
    game Saturday.  Just wanted to let you Giants fans know that he
    thinks the winner will go to the Super Bowl...
    
    
    Spud

    re -1
      What did you think he would say, "If the Vikings are lucky enough
    to beat us, they will lose to their next opponent." I think he is
    just showing respect for the team that he has to play this week. 
    
                                Steve J.

     Jim Burt is just being a Kinder&Gentler(tm) Football player.
    he would never be so gruff as to suggest that his Rival may
    "Sip Boldly In Public".
    
    Big Game
    
    
    Yea, Yea, Yea !!

    The weather is expected to be 35-40 degrees, little wind, and partly
    sunny for the 12:30 pm kickoff.
    
    I'll be there!
      
    Prediction:  Giants 24   Ram 20
    
    Redmen Phil
    
    

    The Rams and Niners played 5 games this year against the Jints and
    Eagles. The left coast teams won all 5. Add New Orleans' win over
    Philly and there is no mystery why LA-SF are playing for the title.
    
    The Giants had a good year,overcoming much adversity,but they were
    0-2 against Philly and LA and 0-1 against the Niners.

>    The Rams and Niners played 5 games this year against the Jints and
>    Eagles. The left coast teams won all 5. Add New Orleans' win over
>    Philly and there is no mystery why LA-SF are playing for the title.

	Don't understand what New Orleans has to do with it...
    
	And, I saw a BIG mystery in OT...

	Congrats to the Rams, who made the most of their breaks

Jim M

The Giants were done in by several things:

First, their inability to put the ball in the endzone (ie settling for
the FG) has haunted them all year.

Second, Simms had a poor day.  Inability to throw deep successfully
hurt them, as the Rams could then cover underneath better.

Third, the defense couldn't stop the Rams once Everett got hot.
The prevented them from scoring 7, but they couldn't have stopped
the FG.

Fourth, the officiating left something to be desired.  I think that
"running and jumping up" call was bogus on the Rams, and I truly
think (along with all the sportscasters I've heard) that the interference
call was bogus.  Regardless of what Anderson says, the ball was
questionably catchable, and the line the ref was using was so fine
as to be indistinguishable.  Reviewing the tape after the game,
there was a play where the Rams's DB broke up a pass on the Giants last
drive of the game (which forced them to punt).  If Sheldon White was
interfering, then so was the Ram on that play....

But, the Giants were outplayed, and didn't play well enough to advance
to the Championship game.  The Rams, I fear, have always been the
Giants Achilles heel.


BUT, I do want to say that I think Coach Parcells displayed a tremendous
amount of class in the post game interviews.  I would have questioned
the maternal heritage of the ref in question ;^)


Chainsaw

    For the officiating project I do - was Bob McElwee the referee in
    yesterday's game?  If not, who was?
    
    John

    Don't forget that they were also a little too greedy at the end of the
    first half that cost them a touchdown.

    The OT call was bogus, but let's not forget why we lost this game. 
    Phil Simms.  The Rams offense with Everett is real tough.  The Giants
    shut him out in the first half.  SHUT HIM OUT!  Until Phil does his
    typical-of-the-season choke job with 34 seconds left before the half. 
    
    Everybody on the Giants played their hearts out yesterday.  Hell, even
    the offensive line played well and usually gave Simms plenty of time
    yesterday.  He sure as hell had a lot more time than Everett had.  And
    what does he do with it?  Big time interception, big time overthrown
    passes (repeatedly), a fumble inside their own 20, another which could
    have easily been called a fumble in the first half (on that
    questionable lateral).  
    
    The better team won.  The Giants defense is definitely better than the
    Rams', but to go to the Super Bowl, you have to have at least the
    semblance of an offensive attack.  This season, Simms was never able to
    give them that.
    
    Season Report Card:  This team was full of overachievers this year. 
    The defense did it in spite of losing key veterans George Martin, Harry
    Carson, and Jim Burt.  O.J. Anderson did it despite being 32 years old
    and spending the last few years as a non-starter.  Hell, even Bjorn
    Nittmo filled in nicely.  Big underachiever of the year goes to Simms. 
    If he had had even an average Simms year, we would be playing San
    Francisco next week.
    
    Laker_Ken
             

    For the record, this game was the first overtime playoff game ever
    played between NFC teams.
    
    It was also the Giants first overtime playoff game since the famous
    1958 overtime loss to the Baltimore Colts.
    
    In my opinion, the pass interference call was horrible.  A truly brutal
    call considering the situation.  Calling it "borderline" only makes the
    call even worse.
    
    However ...
    
    The Giants should have already been whooping it up in the locker room
    by then.  No way should they have even been in overtime in the first
    place.  Simms was just plain average.  I'm sorry, Jints fans, but Phil
    Simms is an average quarterback.  He has the heart and courage of a
    champion but age and injuries are catching up to him.  Better start
    looking for a long-term replacement.
    
    And the Rams' coaches deserve a huge amount of credit for shifting Irv
    Pankey to cover Lawrence Taylor.  After that adjustment, LT was awfully
    quiet.   In fact, I believe that the Rams entire offensive line as a
    unit deserves the lion's share of the credit for this victory.  Just
    like they did last week against the Eagles, they dominated the line of
    scrimmage.  Everett was basically untouched and Greg Bell had some
    gaping holes to run through.
    
    Bob Hunt

    
    Really disappointed with the coaching yesterday. Should have never
    been greedy at the end of the half. The Rams were flat out of it,
    heck they didn't even think enough of their chances that they let
    the clock run instead of stopping on first down. Giants should have
    run the clock out for intends and purposes they lost the ballgame 
    right there. Defensively, they should have came out of the two deep
    zone on third down to cover the flats, aren't professional cornermen
    supposed to be able to play some man to man? Rams third down
    profenciences late in the game was due this predictablity by the Giants
    defense......
    
    All I can say about Simms is Hostler should be given his chance next
    year.......
    
    Good game by the Rams who bent but didn't break defensively and
    offensively got the job done on third downs and cash in when given
    the field posistion.....
    
    mike

    
    Actually Bob, Pankey also was on LT in the first half except for a few
    plays where LT when against Damon Johnson. Pankey did do better in the
    second half but he got a lot of help from Newberry and the backs.
    Enough to confuse LT so that when Pankey he had him alone he did the
    job....
    
    mike

     Well,
    
     The best team in football got beat yesterday.  Hummmmm !  
    I wonder what that means...  Good season Giants wish ya
    woulda gone all the way !!
    
    Big Game

    	Phil Simms stunk yesterday.  The Giants offensive line played
    better than I thought they would.  Lawrence Taylor played a good
    first half, but was shut down in the second half.
    
    				/Don

>         The best team in football got beat yesterday.  Hummmmm !  
>	  I wonder what that means... 
    	
    	LA is better than the Giants.  They beat 'em twice this season
    at home and away.  SF may even be better than LA so I guess "that
    means" nothing, everything is as it should be going into the conference
    championships.
    
    sean

I think the reason the Giants lost (I'll state it again) is their inability
to put the ball in the endzone when they get close.

If you look back at the season, I'm sure you'd find them way down in the
NFL rankings in this category.  The difference between this year and 86
was the fact that in 86, they got the ball into the endzone.

The offensive line has gelled tremendously.  Reisenberg, IMHO, is the
unsung hero.  YOu never hear them mention his name, yet he just goes out
and gets it done...

Bavaro was missed.

I won't talk about the call because I agree, they should have been in
the damn locker room by that point.

My biggest fear is that the Giants have waited too long to draft Simms
replacement.  With relatively late draft picks coming up, I'm sure they
won't find that "great" prospect either....

I don't think Hoss is the answer....although I could be wrong.


'Saw

    I forgot about Bavaro's absence.
    
    Bavaro is a true monster of a player.  His loss may indeed be one of a
    handful of very valid reasons why Phil Simms looked so ordinary
    yesterday.
    
    Bob Hunt

RE:.37

>I truly
>think (along with all the sportscasters I've heard) that the interference
>call was bogus.  Regardless of what Anderson says, the ball was
>questionably catchable, and the line the ref was using was so fine
>as to be indistinguishable.  

I think the ball may have been tough to catch but it is marginally catchable,
and in an interference call as long as the ball is catchable, even marginally,
the call should be made.  White was on Anderson's back far before the ball 
reached them and this affected Anderson's position and the eventual "catch-
ability" of the ball, and I think this has to be accounted for also.  

I have heard no sportscaster including all the CBS guys calling the call bogus,
although they did question if the ball was catchable.  There is a difference.
In one of the sports review show last night in Boston there was a call-in poll
and 53% or so thought the call was good and the rest voted otherwise.  So it 
was a close one.

>Reviewing the tape after the game,
>there was a play where the Rams's DB broke up a pass on the Giants last
>drive of the game (which forced them to punt).  If Sheldon White was
>interfering, then so was the Ram on that play....

Consistency may be the problem with the ref.  But not that one particular call.

>BUT, I do want to say that I think Coach Parcells displayed a tremendous
>amount of class in the post game interviews.  I would have questioned

Agreed.

Re:.40

>    The OT call was bogus, but let's not forget why we lost this game. 
>    Phil Simms.  The Rams offense with Everett is real tough.  The Giants
>    shut him out in the first half.  SHUT HIM OUT!  Until Phil does his
>    typical-of-the-season choke job with 34 seconds left before the half. 
 
Simms did not have a great day but he did not lose the game himself.  The 
Rams defense may deserve more credit.  They shut down Cunningham the week 
before even better than against Simms.  
   
>    Everybody on the Giants played their hearts out yesterday.  Hell, even

I think that include Simms.

>    the offensive line played well and usually gave Simms plenty of time
>    yesterday.  He sure as hell had a lot more time than Everett had.  And
>    what does he do with it?  Big time interception, big time overthrown
>    passes (repeatedly), a fumble inside their own 20, another which could
>    have easily been called a fumble in the first half (on that
>    questionable lateral).  
 
Again Simms had a bad day.  So did Cunningham last week.  The common factor 
was the Rams defense really.  

Simms had one INT, so did Everett.  The Everett INT in the endzone cost the
Rams a TD which could have put the Giants away.  But this was forgotten 
because overall Everett did have a good day and he won the game.  But the
Giants defense was good.  So was the Rams'.  So I don't think it is fair to 
blame Simms and Simms alone.
   
>    The better team won.  The Giants defense is definitely better than the
>    Rams', but to go to the Super Bowl, you have to have at least the

Disagree.  The Giants defense is their strength but the Rams defense, despite
their lower league ranking, is really proving themselves the past two weeks.
If the Giants defense is so obviously better than the Rams, why could they not
do what the Rams did to the Eagles last week and lost to the Eagles twice in
the season?

>    Nittmo filled in nicely.  Big underachiever of the year goes to Simms. 
>    If he had had even an average Simms year, we would be playing San
>    Francisco next week.
 
This *is* an average Simms year.  

Re:.42

>    Really disappointed with the coaching yesterday. Should have never
>    been greedy at the end of the half. 

I don't think it was greed.  If the play worked, the very same play, then
Parcell would have been a genius.  They had enough time and timeouts that
they should try for it, but it was just a bad break.

>   The Rams were flat out of it,

Come on.

Charles

     Wheres the Dinz.......   Hey, Dinsmore,  you still owe me
    Buddy !!
    
    Big Game

    
    Don't forget that ridiculous "lateral" call when evaluating the overall
    officiating.  Simms may not be the smartest QB in the league, but you
    can't convince me that he's dumb enough to surrender the ball like that
    on his own ten yard line on purpose...
    
    I predicted the Rams to win this game, but they weren't as good as I
    thought they'd be.  They were abused by the rush.  I may have to revise
    my thinking that this team can beat the 'Niners.
    
    glenn
    

    Simms looked ordinary because he is ordinary. I liked his left handed
    "pass" good to see him working on a phase of his game. Had that been a
    fumble, as it should have, the Rams would have had at least three.
    I agree with the fact that it never should have gotten to O.T. The Rams
    should have put it away on their last drive, instead of having to
    settle for a F.G. Hey, the Giants "D" hung in there, and I respect
    that. The "Call"? Could've gone either way, but the next play could've
    been from the Ram 2 and Flipper still had his man beat. Same guy? Great
    game. Congrats to the Giants on a fine season.
    
    the devil dog.
    
    p.s. I told you Dinz.

    re: Simms missing weapons.
    
    Besides Bavaro, Simms went without Morris all year as well.  But I
    don't offer them as excuses.  All this time playing without them, Simms
    has definitely settled on other "favorite" targets.  Thier lack of
    presense has to be accounted for by the time the playoffs role around.
    
    He's also victimizing by a very ordinary cast of receivers.
    
    And Simms is just not one of the game's better quarterbacks.  He's a
    good QB who usually stays within himself and doesn't make big mistakes. 
    That was not the case yesterday.
    
    Dan

    I didn't see this game.  I'm trying to figure out what this "greedy"
    play was and what happened afterwards.  Someone fill me in, please?
    
    Thanks.
    
    Hawk

    The Giants were leading 6-0 coming to the end of the first half with
    less than 30 seconds left and Simms was intercepted in the own side of 
    the field by Michael Stewart (?) running it back to the Giant 20s.  A 
    few plays later Everett threw a 20 yard TD to Flipper Anderson to tie
    the score and with the extra point went into the half leading the
    Giants 7-6.
    
    Charles

    Re: "greedy" play ...
    
    34 seconds to go before halftime, Giants up 6-0, and running out the
    clock.  Instead of killing the last few ticks, Simms put it up for
    grabs.   Ball was tipped and picked off.
    
    Next play Everett hits Flipper Anderson for a touchdown.  17 seconds
    left.
    
    Halftime score, Rams 7, Giants 6.
    
    Big time mistake.
    
    Bob Hunt

    
    The interference call was a good call. The Giants Db tackled the
    receiver long before the ball got there and the ball still only missed
    his hands by less than a foot. It would have been a highlight film
    catch if he made it, but the opportunity was there before being
    interferred with. Stupid play by the DB.
    
    I would have liked to see another angle of Simms lateral/intentional
    grounding play. Looked like a lateral to me. Since it wasn't ruled a
    lateral, how in the world wasn't it ruled "in the grasp" or
    "intentional grounding"?
    
                                                    HOOT
    

re officials consistency....

I think you have to look at the game as a whole.  While I am *NOT* 
using the call as an excuse, I think you have to look at the tone that
is set throughout the game, and any calls you have to view in that
light.

Holding calls were sparse, yet a look at the tape shows more grabbing
going on than on a horny high school boy's first date.  If they chose
to let the lads play ball, then why were there such intriguing calls
as "running and jumping up"?

If the majority of the pass break ups are going allow the defender's
hand on the receivers back, why suddenly call it in a crucial juncture
in overtime?

I'm not saying it's right, but usually in overtime situations, it
is very rare to see a marginal penalty called, whether it's hockey
or football.  In hockey I've seen guys clotheslined with sticks during
OT, and the ref all of a sudden has cataracts.

While the Giants should have put the Rams away early (and they could have)
and there would have been no need for OT, the ref should not have made
his extremely marginal call in light of all the other non-calls in the
game.

But, on the whole I feel that NLF Officiating this year has been substandard.


It's unfortunate that a great year by Mark Collins is now overshadowed by
being beat on one play.

Re the sportscasters.  Madden said let them play.  Most of the news reports
I saw said you don't call it in OT.  Butkus never really answered the question.

It don't make much difference today, however....

'Saw

    
    Just another of the NFL's little officiating inconsistencies.  You're
    right, Hoot, if Simms' pass was an intentional forward lateral, it 
    should have been called grounding.
    
    A more blatant example was the play in the Browns-Bills game, when the
    ball was jarred loose from Don Beebe as he crashed to the ground.  The
    ball never touched the ground, and was picked off.  Reception or
    interception, right?  No, in the spirit of compromise (and indecision),
    it's ruled an incompletion.  (In spite of Merlin Olson's description, I
    thought it was actually a completion).
    
    What happened to instant replay?  What happened to the crowd noise
    rule?  Apparently when the playoffs arrive the refs are instructed to
    just let 'em play ball...
    
    glenn

    Re:.-1
    
    The Beebe call:  I think it was an interception.
    
    Charles

    
    cmon Hoot you can't be that blind, a good call? Hell if the pass had
    been a good one Flipper wouldn't have  had to dive for the ball giving
    the appearence that he was hit and the >Rams would have won right there
    instead of one play later. It was obviously a call back for blowing the
    lateral play earlier.
    
    Charles, if the Rams weren't flat out of it why didn't they stop the
    clock on first down? They let the Giants take away valuable time or
    so it would have appeared. And no Parcells would not have been a genuis
    had it worked he would have been lucky. All year long the Giants have
    beaten themselves this way, wasted a great defensive effort with one
    ot two stupid calls on offense. Yesterday was no different....
    
    mike
    

    Mike,
    
    Rams may not have thought that they have enough time getting the ball
    back with the left time and make a strike for some points.  Being down
    at the half by 6 is not the end of the world.  I don't think their not
    calling for time to stop the clock indicated they thought they were out
    of it.  
    
    The Simms interception was a tipped pass by Jerry Gray, so you really
    can't blame Simms all for it.  Again if it worked and the Giants got 3
    points to make it 9-0 you will be talking about how good the call was.
    It was just like the way the Broncos marched down the field to get
    their FG before the first half expired yesterday against the Steelers.
    
    Charles

>    What happened to instant replay?  What happened to the crowd noise
>    rule?  Apparently when the playoffs arrive the refs are instructed to
>    just let 'em play ball...
    
    glenn, intant replay wasn't used on the pass interference penalty, it
can't be used on those types of plays. Also, Brister would have had to request
from the ref to quiet the crowd, and he did not even try.

	I can hear the conversation:

	Brister: "My players can't hear my signals!"
	Ref:  "What?"

	Brister: "My players can't hear my signals!!"
	Ref: "What?"

	Brister: "CAN YOU GET THIS CROWD TO QUIET DOWN?!"

	Ref: "You'll have to speak up, I can't hear you"

	Ref #2: - Flag - "40 second clock expired - 5 yard penalty"

	:^)
	Jim M

Someone talked about class at the end of a losing effort like
the Giants yesterday...

Here's an article from the Hartford Courant (reprinted w/o permission)

=======================================================================
                            Simms Thrown for Loss
                                      by
                                Alan Greenberg

If Phil Simms had thrown the ball during the game half as well as
he threw the sarcasm after it, well the Giants would be headed for
the NFC Championship Game.

Instead they are headed nowhere.  And after Sunday's 19-13 overtime
loss to the Rams, the fickle finger of blame seems to point at Simms.

Don't blame the Giants offensive line, which usually gave Ottis
Anderson (120 yards on 24 carries) gaping holes and Simms plenty
of time to find his receivers.

"Our offensive line, it was their best day," Giants wide receiver
Lionel Manuel said.  "The offensive line was knocking their line
into the secondary. I hadn't seen that the whole season."

Don't blame the Giants defense, which would have held the Rams scoreless
in the first half had Simms not set up the  Rams' only score by
throwing an interception into double coverage while standing on his
own 25 with only 30 seconds left in the half.

Whatever you do don't blame LT.

And don't blame Manuel Noriega.  He's in custody.

Simms?  He might as well have been.

They say quarterbacks get too much credit when their team wins and too
much blame when their teams loses.  Given the media's and the fans'
tendency to oversimplify events by seeking out heroes and scapegoats
instead of more complex explanations, that's probably true.

Still, it's hard to fault the Giants' performance Sunday against a 
quality opponent that had handled them so easily during the regular
season.  But when it was time for their leader Simms, to stand and
deliver, he didn't.

This time there was no bitter cold weather to deal with.  Nor was there
a vicious pass rush, the like of which the Eagles applied here  Dec. 3
when they constantly harried Simms and beat the Giants.

This time, there was Simms stepping into the pocket and overthrowing
receivers like Eastern Europe overthrows governments.  When he wasn't
getting three of his passes knocked down by the Rams defensive line.
Great penetrations by the Rams?  No way.  A couple of Simms' passes would
have barely cleared a fire hydrant.

Simms completed 14 of 29 passes for 180 yards and no touchdowns.  He threw
one interception and was sacked once for a seven-yard loss.  Statistically
hardly a horrible day.

But a vastly ineffective one.  Simms completed only three passes to
his wide receivers.  One was a 27-yarder to Stephen Baker, Simms'
longest completion of the day, on the Giants' first play from scrimmage.
A lot of the time, Simms' receivers were open but overthrown.  There
were no "drops."

"It was early in the game, and everyone was pumped up," said speedster
Baker, overthrown in the endzone. "His arm was a little more pumped up
than my legs."

Did Simms seem to be having trouble with his touch all game?

"I'd rather not comment on that," Baker said.

Usually Simms is one of the last Giants to return to his locker to dress.
Sunday he was one of the first to dress and leave.  And while his arm
was not overly sharp on the field, his tongue certainly was afterward.

He was asked if, given the strong performance of his line, the problem
was that he was having trouble with his passing touch?

"No, I didn't have any trouble with my touch," Simms said, mimicking
the question in a mocking falsetto voice that fairly oozed sarcasm.

Another reporter, trying to make nice, gently asked Simms if the Giants
were hoping that a third field goal at the end of the first half, and
a 9-0 lead, might have put the Rams away for the day.

"Oh yeah," Simms said, loading up on the sarcasm as Gaylord Perry loaded
up on the spitter, "we were going to put 'em away with a 9-0 lead."
What happened, of course, was a 7-6 deficit, after Simms' ill-advised
pass into double coverage, intended for Manuel, was tipped by Rams
cornerback Jerry Gray and intercepted by strong safety Micheal Stewart,
whose 29-yard return to the Giants' 20 set up a Rams touchdown on the next
play, giving LA a 7-6 lead with only 17 second left in the first
half.

It was one of Simms-Manuel's favorite plays.  And the Rams were ready
for it.

Predictable Phil?

"Phil was looking in that area the whole time," Stewart said.  "We
knew it was coming.  Phil was tracking his receivers the whole time.
He'll look at one guy and only one guy."

"You think to yourself," Gray said.  "Why would they pass [from that field
position] with 30 seconds left?"

"We shouldn't have made that mistake at the end of the first half," Simms
said, voice rising.  "We took a chance and it backfired, OK?  Got to play
the game error-free, is that right?  I guess they didn't make any errors
either.  You know sometimes people do tip balls and they get interceptions."

But there was plenty of time to recoup.  There was the whole second half.
Simms directed the Giants on a 14-play, 82-yard touchdown drive that gave
the Giants a 13-7 lead with 1 minute, 57 seconds left in the third
quarter.  But for Simms and the offense, that was it.

"The second half seemed fast," Simms said.  "It seemed like we never had
the ball."

Not true.  The Giants had the ball for 15:04 of the second half.  The
problem was simply that Simms, once one of the game's better big play
quarterbacks, couldn't make the big plays.

With Simms, or for that matter, any quarterback, injuries are always
a consideration.  Simms, 33, suffered a hairline fracture of the thumb
on his throwing (right) hand in September, a torn chest muscle Oct. 1
at Dallas, and a severely sprained ankle Oct. 30 at Minnesota.  All are
said to have healed.

"In practice," Baker said, "he looked great".

On Sunday, Phil Simms did not look great, or anywhere close.  Try as
he might, he looked like the main reason an otherwise remarkable Giants
season is over.

    Jam It Mcfall !!!
    
     I swear you Anti-Donk Bone heads just can't give credit where credit
    is due. Sure, it's ok for the Clowns fan to throw %^$&^$%& all over
    the field and scream and yell......  Sure it's ok for the fans of teams 
    that play indoors to to make more noise than the Concorde on takeoff.
    But let the Bronco fan, in an outdoor stadium make a little noise and
    all you guys are whining that they should have been penaltized.
    
    Big Game

>    Jam It Mcfall !!!
>     I swear you Anti-Donk Bone heads just can't give credit where credit
>    is due. Sure, it's ok for the Clowns fan to throw %^$&^$%& all over
>    the field and scream and yell......  Sure it's ok for the fans of teams 
>    that play indoors to to make more noise than the Concorde on takeoff.
>    But let the Bronco fan, in an outdoor stadium make a little noise and
>    all you guys are whining that they should have been penaltized.
    
	Now, now Big Game, calm down. What I said, both in the title and the
body of my note, was that it was up to Bubby to ask the ref for help, or if
Bubby didn't know better, it was up to Noll to remind him.. I NEVER said the
Broncos should be penalized. And then you lump me in with, of all things,
"Anti-Donk Bone heads". Thanks for including me with the majoirty of North
America :^)

Jim M

    
    The better team won yesterday.  The Giants had the Rams playing
    just the kind of game they wanted, and still couldn't put it away.
    I still don't understand the play at the end of the first half though.
    If you are going to have a conservative gameplan, you have to stick
    with it.  They went away from it for a bit, and it backfired.
    
    Bruce

�   This time, there was Simms stepping into the pocket and overthrowing
�   receivers like Eastern Europe overthrows governments.

Great line Frank, are you sure this is from Greenberg, or did you lift this
from Mr T's repetoire?.

Mike JN

    Re. .64  --  Thanks for the Greenberg article.  My sentiments exactly.
    
    

Not that I dislike Simms, quite the contrary.  But to me, my idols have
always been humble after experiences like Simms Debacle yesterday.

Instead of sarcasm, I could and would have respected everso much more, 
something like:

	"I had a lousy game.  I was overthrowing, and got tipped
	 and batted down way too many times.  I forced the pass
	 near the end of the first half, and was off.

	 My line gave me great protection, and I let the team
	 down..."


If he couldn't say that, he should have said nothing.

The line about Eastern Europe was Greenberg, and I must say it's
vintage Greenberg at that.  I know he must be syndicated, but I don't
know who else gets him.  Anyone recognize him?

Chainsaw

    
    Ok Charles you are correct that being down 6-0 is nothing at the half.
    But given that the Rams hadn't moved the ball much, and hadn't stop
    the Giants much they were hell of a lot lower emotionally then they
    were before the interception. I watch the Giants all year long have
    only missed one game, the only time they lost during the year with
    the exception of the Rams' game was when they took chances. When they
    stayed within themselves only threw the ball around 20 times a game
    and ran the rest they won period. I've argue the same point with fellow
    Giants' fan before the offense just doesn't have enough big play people
    to gamble. 
    
    and although Robinson may or may not be a smart coach, he was smart
    enough to punt the ball out of bounds everytime and not let Meggett
    fire up the team with a return. The again that was probably a decision
    made by the special teams coach....
    
    mike

    re .71
    
    Frank that's easy for you to say behind a terminal. Try being civil
    and cordial when you know that you sipped, and people are asking
    asinine questions that merely restate the obvious.

    Also if the Giants didn't give up that TD at the end of the first half,
    they would have been up 13-0 at the end of the 3rd.

    Re:.72
    Well, Mike, you watch the Giants much more than I do so you may be
    right that they must stay within themselves.  But I am always one for
    an opened-up offense so I did not find a lot to blame for the Giants'
    last play of the half, except they took a chance, misfired and turned 
    over the ball.  I still can't blame them for their decision, but they
    are unlucky.
    
    Charles  

    The Giants played every game this season to WIN. The risky pass at the
    end of the half could have easily gone for 65+ yds and scored. This
    type of Risky offense is what caused the Eagles to beat the Giants in
    both meetings this year. 
    
    If NY changes QB's it will take this team several years to gain the
    respect the team has for Simms. Simms is a gutsy QB with the team
    respect around him ala McMouth. 
    
    Jeff

    
    Jeff, how many Giants game did you watch this year? Please talk about
    the donks atleast you know something about them......
    
    mike

       I thought the game was great,  Simms did fumble/lateral the ball, 
    and the "call" was a good one.  Don't blame refs.  I jints were good
    enough,  then they wouldn't needed OT.
    
      Go RAMS!!!!
    		Tj

re Doc:

It's never easy to say.  I'll be the first one to admit that.

While I don't play professional sports and have people ask me asinine
questions when I'm just out of the shower, I have had some similar
situations in the workplace, where I've screwed up, and been called
on it.

It ain't easy, but I've learned over time that when you screw up, if
you take it quick, the pain goes away faster.  Own up to it, admit it,
and people will respect you more for it.

Unfortunately I've worked with people who either wised off when called
on it, or (worse) passed the buck....

I'm not condemning Simms, but I'm just saying I'd respect him more if
he'd own up to his poor performance.

And finally, let me leave all of you with a little quote from Vince
Lombardi:

	"The glory is not in never falling, but in rising
	 every time you fall."


Chainsaw

    Yea Riggen.....  I sure wish you would get your stuff in
    one bag!!!
    
    Big Game

	I just saw the last part of the game, and none of the Simms' interview,
but I still think Simms is the kind of quarterback a team needs to win. He has
good leadership qualities, seems to have the respect of the team, and has never
been an ankle biter. The interference call in overtime was a bummer. On the
overtime, from one angle, at normal speed, it looked like a bogus call; from
another angle, in slow motion, it looked like he MIGHT have interfered, but
Madden made the point (I think it was Madden) that the defender has a right to
the ball, as well. That was a **MAJOR CALL **. I hate to see a game of that
importance so severely impacted by the officials... it taints the victory for
the Rams, and will stick in the Giants' craws for years.

Mike JN

    If it hadn't been for all the chances that Parcells took against
    the Redskins, the Giants wouldn't have even been in the playoffs.
    (3 4th down conversions, 2 on the same drive while leading)
    
                             Steve J.

     I listen to the game on the radio while I was stacking cordwood
    and I have a couple of questions... In the 4th? quarter when the
    Rams were driving which turned into a FG the announcers said thaa
    pass into the endzone was really intercepted. Pat Haden said that
    after looking at the replay that the ball never touched the ground
    and that a Gianthad picked it off a DB backs.  Did any one else
    catch wind of this?
    
                    REK

    They replayed three times on the tube. I never saw it touch the
    ground. Two of the three Madden said that he saw it touch the ground.
    It looked like an interception to me.
    
                               Steve J.

re The Interference Call:

WVIT, our NBC affiliate, showed a new video clip last night of the call.
It was field level, reverse angle, from the view the SJ had.  (In fact
you could see the SJ in the picture).

The ball was catchable, White did get his shoulder, and White was not
looking at the ball.

Beasley Reece(sp?) was the sportcaster.  He used to be a DB with the Giants.
He said, according to all the criteria, it was pass interferece, but he
said it was so close (ie he didn't mug him, just got his shoulder a little)
and that the game was in OT that he felt the call shouldn't have been
made.  Especially in light of the way the rest of the game was called.

Anyway, FWIW,
Chainsaw

PS  I'm still proud of the Giants season, and look forward to seeing what
    they will do next year.

     They were obviously the best team in the NFL at the time of 
    their demise.......   I really think that interference call
    was Bullshit...  They had been playing like that all day long.
    Do the rule suddenly change in OT.  Sorry Phil,  youu were as manly
    as they come this year..
    
    Big Game

    
    Steve J., the reply of the endzone interception was inconclusive and I
    doubt the replay official would have over-turned it. The ball came out
    from between the two guys so it was tough to tell wether it bounced off 
    the ground or wedged between their bodies before popping out.
    
    To my CXO brethren who can't handle me keeping the honest truth of
    Elway from being told, the Giants play best when they play not to
    loose another words no high risk plays. I guess some folks need
    everything spelled out in black and white to be able to understand.
    Just can't get the handle on reading between the lines.
    
    Also the fourth down gambles during the year were dictated by the situation.
    Either the Giants were loosing, the game was tied or they were in the
    opposisions territory. Most were of 1 to 2 yards needed varied and I
    think all of two this year that were convert were convert with the
    running game. Running game is low risk.
    
    Steve J. I didn't get to see the second skins game here because they
    wouldn't go against the patsies.....
    
    mike 

    
    	I watched the 4th quarter interception many times and it appears
    that the ball did hit the ground and then bounce up on the defensive
    mans back.  The replay officials could not have changed the call
    on the play because it was very inconclusive (too many people in
    the way of the camera).
    
    sean

    Mike What the difference between note .77 and your's .89 
    
    It seems that your just jealous that a Bronco fan picked up a season
    long trend of the Gints after watching only 7 Giant Games all season...
    
    
    Jeff

    
    Ok a further explaintion is needed I guess...
    
    The Giants do play football to win just like everybody else....
    
    The Giants do not play win at all cost football. Win at all cost
    football is taking chances offensively and defensively. Offensively
    passing in the opposision's territory with under a minute left in
    the half is high risk football. Throwing the long ball and throwing
    more that 25 times a game is high risk football. When the Giants play
    this kind of football they loose. If the Giants played this kind of
    take chance football they would have beaten teams like the Cowboys
    worst....Defensively the Giants don't blitz that much or play man to
    man. They play zone and rush 4 guys with the 4th rusher being a LB..
    
    When the Giants play not to loose, they do not take chances in the 
    opposisions territory and usually only pass about 20 times a game.
    They prefer to run and run again and play field posistion. If they
    can win this battle they usually end up with short drives for scores.
    The games that you watched were probably the games in which they
    trailed and were forced to pass to get back into the game. Question
    of the games you watched when the Giants gambled how many did they
    win??????
    
    mike
    
    

       Pass interference is not 'reviewable' by the replay officials.
                                          Denny

    	Regardless of the pass interference call the Giants would've
    lost the game in overtime anyway.  Their defense was dog tired and
    was unable to make the plays.  The "Call" just expidited the
    inevitable.  
    
    				/Don 

I agree with Mike.

The key to the Giants offense, as boring as it may seem, has been to 
run the ball.  I believe it was just this year that they instituted
as screen pass (Hey Giants fans -- how many years did we scream for that?)

Seriously, it's not high-flying-throw-the-bomb football that wins
for the Giants.  It's been (for the past few years) try to pick up
at least 4 or 5 on first down, on the ground.

Consequently, they don't appear to be a big come from behind kind of
team (although on at least one occasion this year they came from
17 points back).

That's what Mike is getting at.  

As far as attempting a fourth down conversion, Parcells has many reasons
for doing that, one of which is the confidence it builds.  The Giants
had to be pretty high in 4th down conversion percentage, if they didn't
lead the league.

JSHO (just some humble opinions)
Chainsaw

    Flipper would have been pretty embarassed if there had been a penalty
    flag on the winning play and he would have had to come back to the
    field from the locker room.
    
    Also, some reporter asked him why he ran straight into the locker room
    and Flipper said that he and Aaron Cox had agreed to meet in the locker
    room after the game.
    
    Somebody then asked Flipper where else would he and Cox go after the
    game besides the locker room.
    
    Flipper didn't have an answer.
    
    Bob Hunt

Steven --

I'm not arguing about the Call.  If the Giants had played the game
the way they should have, there would have been no OT, and hence
NO Call.  That has been my contention since about 1630 EST on 
Sunday.

But, as long as the call was made, it is usually our wont in here
to disect, analyze, re-analyze, speculate, cogitate, and otherwise
muck around with what we've seen or experienced.

Everett did make a nice throw.  He'd been getting hot from the 4th
quarter on.

It was unfortunate that they beat Collins, who had a helluva season.

While it is arguable that had the call not put them they the Giants
might have grabbed a turnover, one can also argue about how many
angels can dance on the head of a pin, or whether or not Noriega's
red underwear has any voodoo significance, and in doing so, waste
a lot of time.

Bottom line, the Giants season is over, and most of their fans have
turned to the draft to provide their next dose of Giant entertainment.

Most humbly yours,
Chainsaw

         
�      Broncos and Elway #1 in my book
      
Yes, this is true.  However, Mike's book, as all good Giants fans
know, is entitled:

	
		The Enumerated List of Sports Teams and Players
		That Bite the Baloney Pony with Teeth that Resemble
		Equine Chompers (in Order of Dorkishness)

HTH,
Chainsaw_on_Books....    

     What are you talking about DiNz....?  BTW  Tomorrow is your
    last day, after that I'm sending Uncle Guido to see ya !!
    
    Big Game
    
    

    
    Aw Steven what would I do with out you? ????
    
    ;^)
    
    mike

For what it's worth:

	Yesterday's Hartford Courant carried a story stating that
	Mark Collins suffered a slight ankle fracture on the play
	before Anderson's TD catch to win in OT.

	Collins did signal that bench to take himself out, but
	no one saw the signal.  He was beaten by Anderson by a
	step, step and a half for the score.

	Not to take anything away from Anderson, but Collins is
	a very good cornerback too...

Chainsaw

There is a big picture on the first page of the Sports section of the NY 
Times today, showing a clear picture from a perfect angle of the play.  
In the photo, Sheldon White was literally over Anderson's back.  You can 
see the right hand of White grabbing on the jersey over Anderson's right 
shoulder - you can actually see the appearance of the fabric of the jersey 
being pulled.  Then, the ball was shown to be just inches away from Ander-
son's hand!  It was much closer than I thought I saw on TV.  I thought it
would have been at least a foot away.  The ball according to that still
photo was clearly catchable, even with White on Anderson's back like that.
 
In the articles in the same section, one with a report on an interview 
with Parcells, the other concerning the quarterback situation, no more 
reference was made that the call was bad.  The photo was so clear there 
could be no argument.
 
The NFL officials are not perfect.  They are plan bad sometimes.  But in 
this particular case, the guy really got a lot of bad press for a great 
call that he made.  You really have to feel sorry for him.
 
If you don't believe me, get a copy of the NY Times, see that picture be-
fore you argue the call any further.
 
Charles
                               

Charles --

See my previous reply on the film clip from WVIT.  The photo had
to be a still from that clip.

I'm not arguing the validity of the call.  What most people are
arguing is that fact that with only 7 penalties being called
in the game (AND other clear inteference calls being non-calls)
was that the time to make that call, in OT.

At any rate, the point has been moot since 1630 EST on Sunday ;^)

Chainsaw

PS  the QB situation should be VERY VERY interesting come training
    camp time...

    Re: QB situation
    
    The article mentioned a few points regarding that:
    
    1. Parcells will wait until later to decide if he will allow Hostetler
       to fight for the starting job.  He did not endorse the job to Simms
       outright.  He mentioned Simms's age.
    
    2. Hostetler was said to be more mobile, and it was mentioned that he
       was quite dissatisfied before since we had no chance to play, but
       since he started against and beat Phoenix with 1 TD and 2 running
       TDs and proved himself he is quite content now.
    
    3. Rutledge will soon be 33 and has not thrown a pass this season.
    
    4. The other QB in camp was Mike Perez.
    
    5. It was mentioned that the Giants think that drafting a QB may not be
       a high priority since there simply are not much out there this
       draft for QBs.
    
    Charles

    re Frank (.108),
    
    As a referee myself (basketball), it gets to me when somebody says
    "Refs shouldn't decide a game". Bull. PLAYERS decide a game. And
    the Giants DB did last Sunday. I saw the play on ESPN a couple of
    nights ago, and there is NO, as in none, as in ZERO doubt, that
    it was indeed pass interference, and that it wasn't even close.
    I felt that way Sunday, and the replay just confirmed it.
    
    I can not see the logic in the ref swallowing his whistle because
    it's overtime. Hell, a refs call (good or bad) can change the course
    of a game in the 1st quarter just as easily (see the uncalled offsides
    on Clarence Kay in Sunday's game).
    
    The fact of the matter is this :
    
    1) The call was correct, and fantastic, since the official had no
    instant replay to rely on. It was a good call because :    
    
    i. White MADE NO ATTEMPT TO PLAY THE BALL. He NEVER looked back
    for it. He went after Anderson.
     
    ii. White had his arm all over Anderson, virtually pinning one of
    his arms.
    
    iii. The ball was catchable. Even with the foul, Anderson was inches
    away from making the catch.
    
    2) Pass interference is p.i., regardless of the point in the game
    when it occurs. If the refs let the DB's get away with mugging early
    on, then the fault lies there.
                               
    So let it rest. The Giants lost the game fair and square.
    
    Enough said.
    
    DrM

    
    hey Dock, who the heck you talking too? I haven't heard a Giants' fan
    in here claim for days that penality was a bad one. I haven't heard
    any of us claim that they lost the game due to the foul. I believe
    we have all stated that the Giants lost this game on their early
    stupidy and inability to cash in early. Also Phil Simms has received
    much of the blame......
    
    Frank, clearly stated the other day that it was a good call....
    
    what's a matter a bit edgy cause you couldn't rub it in the Jihad's
    face yesterday? You smelt a rat in New Joiesy too......
    
    mike

In the clip I saw, White had his right hand on Anderson's shoulder.
Couldn't tell if he was grabbing jersey or not, but that's immaterial
since all the other prerequisites were there (ie playing man not the
ball, ball catchable etc).

As I said earlier, and will say again, the Giants did not lose the game
because of the pi call.  While we will never know that they would not
have forced a turnover, considering the trend at the time, LA surely
would have attained field goal ranges shortly (w/o the call) and won
by 3.

The Giants lost the game early on, by not scoring 6 on one of the first
two drives.  Holding the Rams to two field goals in the second half
was great defense, if they offense could have put more points up
it would have been superb.


Now, what my contention was is this, and I see it in hockey a lot also.

A ref will go an entire game calling the game one way.  In this game
there were 7 penalties, none for holding, so that connotes a loose game.
Every book I have ever read either by refs/umps, or about ref-ing,
stresses consistency.  If you call a game loose stay that way.  If you
call a game tight, stay that way. 

All I am saying is I saw some pretty good pi non-calls throughout the
game, and definitely on the final pass of the Giants last drive.
If they're not going to call it throughout the whole game, then why do it
in OT?  

Good call (in terms of prereqs), poor consistency.

That's all  I"m getting at....


later, dudes,
Chainsaw

    Doc,
    
    Way off base.  We've accepted the call, and as stated, it wasn't
    the only reason they lost, cuz they should have won in regulation.
    I have the same view as Frank - consistency.  All day long, they
    let the boys play ball - they let BOTH teams hold, BOTH teams
    bump receivers - all game long - and then, in OT, at a most crucial
    time, one official decides that he'll change the feel of the game.
    It was  a close call.  Almost every announcer, sports broadcast
    (including ESPN...) said it was questionable - callable, but 
    questionable.
    
    And as for the ball being catchable - Anderson wasn't held away
    from the ball, but if you look at it, was diving for the ball with
    the Jint on his back - he couldn't reach the ball.  That was
    obvious - no matter what the angle.
    
    They lost, they went 12-4, in a year I didn't expect them to go
    12-4.  I await nexted year - as always.  It was a loss, but the
    sun came up the nexted morning.
    
    JD

    Bill Belichek (spelling?) is a finalist for the Cardinals open head
    coaching job.  This would be a big loss for the Giants.
    
    Redmen Phil
    

    The Giants lost the game due to Simms' stupid play, especially the
    really stupid interception just prior to the half. They have the 
    ball and the lead with less than 2 minutes to go and he lofts
    a wounded duck to the Rams.  Who ever called that play ought to
    be fired. 
    
    BoB

    The same guy who called the 'miracle in the Meadowlands' fumble
    play most likely called for that pass too. And we Pats fans know who
    THAT is, don't we?
                                         Denny

BoB --

It wasn't just Simms.  All season long, the Giants were miserable
about getting 7 when they were inside of the Red Zone.

One (1) Touchdown on either of the first two drives would have iced
the game.  This is not to minimize the INT, nor is it to stick up
for Simms sub-par play, but it is to say that there are more factors
involved that one player's mistake.

I agree. Dumb play, not necessarily the call, but the execution.
He didn't have to force it.  The play might have caught them way
off guard (playing devil's advocate).  Personally, I would have
taken the 6-0 lead into the locker room by falling on the ball...

Chainsaw

    Still whining?

    SERIOUSLY:
    
     I gained much respect for Phil Simms this year.  The guy
    is tough and he plays well when he's healthy. Contrary to 
    all I say about Phil being gay, the guy is a good QB. Lets
    not be to quick to blame the loss all on Phil.
    
    Big game

    Big Game, after that last real serious reply, there must be one huge pile
    of puke in your cube........  :-)
    
    Hawk

�    Still whining?

I can't still be doing something that I wasn't doing to begin with.
Throughout this whole thing I've been as objective as one can
be.

I'd call it whining if I was complaining about the Call, or
blamming(tm) just one person for the loss, that would be whining.


I'm being objective...

Chainsaw

Chainsaw,

	Joan Jett may be calling you. DON'T HANG UP! The first time she was at
the house, her head was a mess. The second time she was chubby. Last night she
showed up and has her head together, plus looked like a fox.

Enjoy
Mike JN

    	Hey 'Saw what the hail is the Red Zone?  Sounds like out takes
    from the Airplane movie.
    
    				/Don

re .124:

	Hey, Slash-Smoocher ;^), the Red Zone is the area inside of
	your opponents 20 yard line, the area from which, you are 
	supposedly able to score handily.

	Unfortunately, the Giants didn't do that that well this year.

	If John Hendry hasn't been too turned off by all the playoff
	crap going on, perhaps he could post a record of who had the
	best redzone percentage this year.

	I'd also love to see a comparison of the Giants stat this year
	versus 1986.  (Jim McFall, how 'bout you doing that.  I'm sure
	you need something to do with all that Equine Disease running
	rampant in Co.)

re .123:

	Great Mike.  I was hoping she would.  She's done something with
	a little makeup I think.

	And oh Yeah, before Dr Midnite takes me to task too harshly for
	not having my Kelly poster yet, I do have this dynamite postcard
	on my board of about 10 Heavenly Bodies in Bikinis at Myrtle Beach.

Chainsaw


PS  And Doc, I forgot to show you the postcard I keep in my drawer (have to 
    because it's from the Riviera) with some of the bathing beauties in
    the south of France....

    	So the Red Zone is a new NFL buzz word?  I didn't know that.
    I try to watch as many games as possible in bars so I don't have
    to hear the announcers.
    
    				/Don

    I'd love to post "red zone" stats, Frank, but they aren't an official
    stat and thus are unavailable.  Sorry.
    
    John

    Either Madden or Walsh talked about the red zone this past week.  The
    20 yard line is now lined in "red" and white paint/chalk.
    
    					Steve

    	Parking in the Red Zone is prohibited.  Just ask the Giants.

Thanks John...

Musta been one of those "TV Color Commentator Stats" that they flash up
on the screen with a cutesy graphic to impress the fans.  During one
of the Giants games they flashed one up about their inability, so I
figured it must be official....


re /Don...

	/Don, did you give WardleVane(tm) your password?  Or are
	you becoming a Craven Panderer now too??? ;^)

'Saw

    	Hey 'Saw, I lost a bundle on those bums two weeks ago!  It serves
    me right tho' for betting a team like the Giants.
    
    				/Don

    I understand about the "no parking in a red zone", but does that
    apply to hearses?
    
    If so, will mean that Jimmy H. will never have company?
    
    Lee

    	Lee the whole Giant team played like it was dead against the
    Rams, so I figure he's got plenty of company.
    
    				/Don

Lee, the Red Zone ends when it breaks the plane of the goal.
Therefore, technically, you could park a hearse in the end zone.

What we have to be careful of is whether or not any minor body
parts could be buried within the Red Zone (let's say at the 5 yard
line).  This would then be a matter for the coroner to decide....

re /Nostradamus:

	No, only the offense played like it was dead.  The D
	did a pretty good job...

'Saw

    Its a whole new season, and the giants started the season with a
    bang by defeating the philadelphia birds by the score of 27 to 20.
    It was great seeing Cunningham run for his life for most of the
    game, I predict its going to be a great season for the boys in blue.
    
                                                      mike

    >game, I predict its going to be a great season for the boys in blue.
    
    
    Yer sure right!!! Da Rams will be da bestest team in da NFC dis year.

    RAMS..have to over come injuries, they will be tested in Tampa
    
    this week against the high flying bucs.. take the points.. with
    road team on road 2nd week in row,.. 
    
    
    dinz
    

Somebody among the Giants' receivers has to step forward and 
have a big season this year.  Their passing game has just been
too inconsistent the past few years.  I was surprised to see 
that the Giants didn't run a single play for Bavaro Sunday night.
If their passing game improves, they should be a solid team.

Laker_Ken

   >Yer sure right!!! Da Rams will be da bestest team in da NFC dis year.
    
    Yo Bessie,
    
    	The Shams(tm) couldn't even beat a team that didn't make the
    playoffs lasted year.  
    
     	You must've been tappin' the Coors Light again.
    
    						 glen j 

    Glen, (not the "I take it all personally" Glen) what a boot-i-ful
    reply. On November 12, the day after the Rams smash the jints, you will
    be in here apologizing to me and the Rams for your silly reply.

    How do you guys see this weeks clash of two potential playoff teams
    shape up on Sunday.
     		       They say Miami will run the ball down your throat!
    I hope they do.
                   Go 'fins..............
                                         Hootsmon.

    
    hard to run on giants  hootsman, marino may throw for  2 touchdowns
    
    but giants with long controlled drives  and ball possession
    pull out a 24-17  victory....
    
    dinz
    

    Giants win against Dolphines....20-3!!!!!!!!
    
                                                    M.J.

    Well, it would seem that the man everyone loves to hate has done it
    again.  Howard Cosell was recently quoted during an interview as saying
    that "Lawrence Taylor has fresh vials of Bible Belt urine" all stocked
    up so he can pass his weekly drug tests.
    
    Taylor, of course, reacted with predictable outrage and Cosell later
    said he was just joking.   Who knows ???
    
    I actually like Howard Cosell *sometimes*.  Yes, he is mostly hot air
    but he does have an ability to make you see things differently.  He
    loathes the NFL (he calls it the "National *Fantasy* League") and he
    also hates pro boxing.  These are two enterprises that he was a chief
    spokesman for so you have to figure he knows something about them.  I
    don't *hate* either business but I do like to think differently about
    them from time to time.
    
    Anyways, this got my entrepreneurial mind a-spinnin' ...  So, I now
    bring you a brand new public service dedicated to truth, justice, and
    the 'Merican way ...
    
            *** BOB'S BIBLE BELT URINE SPECIALITY SERVICES ***
    
                            aka "Pees 'R' Us"
    
    Tired of flunking your drug tests ???  Can't take those ridiculous
    suspensions and demotions because your wizz can't pass muster ??? 
    Itching to get back into the heat of battle but can't because you
    flagged yet another "chemistry test" ???
    
    Well, fret no more because here at "Pees 'R' Us", we'll keep fresh in
    hand stocks of clean, country-fresh, God-fearin', good-old-fashioned
    American wee.
    
    Yes, you too can have fresh vials of Bible Belt urine ready to go at a
    moment's notice.   It's just a simple phone call away.   Have your Visa
    or MasterCard ready and call 1-800-JESUS-PEES.   It's already on its
    way.
    
    Bob Hunt

    Fire Dierdorf!  Dan Quayle roolz!

In Charlotte, call Reverend Joe at 1-704-PEE-KLEN.
In Raleigh-CHapel Hill, call the choke line, 1-919-PEE-DEAN.

TTom

Simple way to beat any pee test...

Pee on the outside of the cup.  Make sure you get lots on there.

Then, hand the cup to the monitor.  As he feels the pee, he'll drop
the cup.  Then, you just say Oops.  Well, my bladder is empty now,
and i"ll have to come back....

Simple, yet affective.

Oh yeah, don't pick your nose just after doing this....

HTH,
'Saw

    Bob, methinks you took one too many ignatowski pills over the weekend.
    
    :-)
    
    Hawk

    
    Heck, bottled pee is already available everywhere.  Just be sure to
    scrape off the Pabst label so the testers won't see it.
    
    Dickster
    

    Of course you heard of the title "Three Men and a Baby". With 
    Quayle in the booth monday night it looked more like the 
    "Three Stooges and an Idiot"
    
    BoB

Dna Quayle made me feel VERY uncomfortable.

I'm sitting there watching, and all of a sudden, this very scary
thought rushes into my brain:

	This man is one heartbeat away from sitting in the Oval
	Office.

I broke out in a cold sweat.  Rushing into the kitchen I uncorked
a bottle of Jack Daniels and took a long pull.  And then another
for good measure.

Then sitting back down, the feeling passed, and my faith in the
good ol' CIA to get Danny Boy outta the way real quick should
anything happen to George took over....

Phew, that was scary though for a minute.

'Saw

> Dna Quayle made me feel VERY uncomfortable.

> I'm sitting there watching, and all of a sudden, this very scary
> thought rushes into my brain:

>	This man is one heartbeat away from sitting in the Oval
>	Office.

 Why Saw, could he be any worst that the Boob in there now? The man who worrys
 more about his popularity than running the country? The Gipper was a real
 jerk but Bush is the Gipper squared!!!!!!

 mike

    Yeah, at least Quayle would eat his broccoli.
    
    Bob Hunt

While I'm not really anti-Bush (I don't always agree with a lot
of his stuff), I have to say that his choice of VEEP always
had me wondering....

(Anti-impeachment insurance perhaps)

BUT, I've got to say that Quayle is to Bush as Peg Bundy is
to Albert Einstein....


Anyway, I've always figured that if anything ever happened to
Bush, that the CIA would bump Danny boy off real quick.
While our country may be hanging in a sling over the Big Shitter
of Life right now, you know with Danny boy in the Oval Office
we'd be taking the plunge down the drain within days....

Anyway....he scares me....


'Saw

	What I really thought was funny about having the "Rain Man"
in the booth was when Dan "Is there any play or call he can't criticize"
Dierdorf asked our brocolli boy if he would like to use the telestrator
to analyze the upcoming 3rd down play.  When it became obvious the dupe
didn't know what to do, Dierdorf bursted in with "We're not going to
waste your expertise on a simple running play".  Either he couldn't use
the telestrator, or couldn't follow the complex play of quarterback
handing off to running back, or both.  It's a sad state of affairs
when a 70 year old who took one to many pucks to the head (Johnny
Pierson) can handle a lightning quick sport like hockey, but the
man one heartbeat away from the presidency can't handle a simple off
tackle play.   Maybe Johnny Pierson should be vice president?

				/Don

    
    RE: -1
    
    That's Dierdork not Dierdorf!
    

>While our country may be hanging in a sling over the Big Shitter
>of Life right now, you know with Danny boy in the Oval Office
>we'd be taking the plunge down the drain within days....

    
    'Saw, 
    I beg to differ with you, I'd say it would be a matter of hours,
    possibly minutes if he spit out his bubble gum while being sworn in.
    
    
    JaKe
    
    

    Dan Quail is not one heartbeat away from the presidency.  Just aske the
    people of Alaska's Prince William Sound.  Bush has no heart to begin
    with.
    
    	--dan'l

>    Dan Quail is not one heartbeat away from the presidency.  Just aske the
>    people of Alaska's Prince William Sound.  Bush has no heart to begin
>    with.

A minor nit.

If anyone thinks this country would be better off with Danny
boy at the helm, God help us, we're gonna need it....

Bush may not have a heart, but I do get the feeling he's got
a brain....Danny boy, I'm not sure 8^)

'Saw

    
    Oh what the hell would a Whaler's fan know anyway! Your all a bunch
    whale-panted, yuppie, insurance agents who wouldn't know the difference
    between Dan Quayle and a hockey puck. Go eat a piece of Brie pizza.
    
    
    
    
    Steve

       Digger, there ISN'T a difference between Dan Quayle and a hockey
    puck!
    HTH                               Denny

    The hockey puck has "substance".
    
    
    JaKe
    

>
>    
>    Oh what the hell would a Whaler's fan know anyway! Your all a bunch
>    whale-panted, yuppie, insurance agents who wouldn't know the difference
>    between Dan Quayle and a hockey puck. Go eat a piece of Brie pizza.


Obviously, you've never been anywhere near the part of Connecticut that
I live in.  It's just as obvious you're suffering from terminal RCI.

Insurance?  Hardly.

Yuppies?  I tie them to the hood of my pickup truck after I've shot them,
bring the carcasses home to the wolf, and mount their heads on my wall.

Study up a little dude, and then if you've got the 'nads, come on down....

'Saw

    
    Oh am I supposed to be scared now or something! 8^))
    Believe me I've been to Connecticut a few times, just
    yankin' your chain saw'. HA! I made a funny. The Inhaler's
    still sip however..
    
    
    
    Steve

 Saw, please show me an instant where George has used his brain? The only
 instant I can think of is 8 years ago tying himself up to the Gipper's
 coat tails for the ride. Oh yeah one other, knowing he could lie to the
 people and get away with it.........

 mike

�                       -< I hear New Haven really isnt. >-

Say what?  New Haven is pretty cool.  The night life is alright,
much better than Hartford, and they have some really bitchin'
bands come through Toad's Place and the Palace.

�    Oh am I supposed to be scared now or something! 8^))

No, actually I hope you're not.  That's always been my advantage.
People think I'm an okay guy till I cruch 'em [lotsa 8^)]


�    Believe me I've been to Connecticut a few times, just
�    yankin' your chain saw'. HA! I made a funny. The Inhaler's
�    still sip however..

Connecticut is a neat place.  People that have lived here all their
lives and come from old New England yankee stock have a large distaste
for yuppies.  My family goes a long way back in this area, in fact
before 1700, so all the "newcomers" are just that 8^)

Yankin' the 'Saw's chain....tooo funny.

And believe me Steve, no one is madder at the Whalers than I.....

later dude,
'Saw

PS  the offer is still open to anyone who wants to come down to
    a flouders game sometime, and sit in the rafters with the *real*
    folks from Connecticut 8^)



re Mike:

	Gee, dude, I don't know.  I don't follow the presidential record
	or anything.  I mean, at some point in the last two years he's
	had to have used his brain....

	At any rate, my point was that he is infinitely better than
	Dan Quayle would be....8^)

    Boy what a game last night, Niners 7-3.  Why did Parcells go for it
    with 3 minutes and change left??  Maybe John Gotti had the niners
    minus the 3 and a half points.
    
    Greg

    Not only was the 4th and Goal decision questionable, but why didn't the
    Gints decline one of the holding penalties on 3rd and Long in the final
    two minutes??  OK you get to push the Niners back another 10 yards, but
    that allowed them to run off nearly 30 seconds of valuable clock time
    which was critical for the Gints as they had no time outs left!!!!
    
    PJ (who knows it easy to second-guess in the morning)
    

    What I don't understand is why the Giants ran 3 running plays inside
    the 10 that forced them to go for the field goal?  Until then, they had
    no running game and they were doing well passing.  I thought for sure
    they'd pass on 2nd down......
    
    Hawk

 Hawk they did pass on second down, Simms overthrew Bavaro in the middle of
 the endzone....

 mike

    Anybody know what Simms and Lott were jawing over at the end of the
    game ???
    
    They're definitely not on each other's Christmas Card list, are they???
    
    Bob Hunt

    They did pass on 2nd?  Oh well, nevermind!  That was shortly before I
    nodded-off anyway.........
    
    Hawk

 My guess Bob is Simms called him lucky SOB or something to that effect
 after he made the great save on the TD pass to Bavaro and Lott took
 exception to it...

 mike

    Looked to me like the San Fran defensive backs were displaying a bit of
    "Miaminess" throughout the game.  Several times they did some showboating 
    after making a nice play.  I had thought they were above that.  I
    wonder if there were any "lockeroom quotes" before the game by Simms or
    somebody to get them that fired up?  I thought Simms and Lott were going 
    to bite each other's heads off.  It'll be very interesting should they
    meet in the playoffs.
    
    What a hit Lott layed on Bavaro.  It was almost on the late side in my
    opinion, but the refs pretty much let everything go until the end of
    the game with the holding calls.
    
    					Steve

    
    I thought the pass on second down (during the series which they got the
    FG) was ill-advised.  Once it was incomplete they were forced to have
    to pass on 3rd down.  Had they run the ball and only gained a yard or
    so, they would have been at the 2, with the option of running or
    passing.  A similar thing happened in the 4th quarter.  Why they decied
    to go with 4 straight passes, I don't know.  A draw to Meggett might
    have loosened up the 49ers.  Some misdirection runs and a screen or two
    to Meggett would have been good to see, also.
    
    This was a Giants type of game, and one they should have won.
    
    Bruce 

    The last four minutes of the game was filled with so many bonehead
    Parcels' decisions: 
    
    1) Why not kick the field goal with 4 minutes left,cutting the score to
    7-6 and needing only a fieldgoal to win. Didn't he have any confidence
    in his defense?
    
    2) Taking two straight penalties on thrid down,enabling SF to waste 
    25 precious seconds.
    
    3) With no time outs  and 50 seconds left,throwing two straight passes to
    Megget in the center of the field,which ran the clock down to 3
    seconds.
    
    It's easy to play Tuesday morning QB,but htese were so obvious,just
    like the decison not to try to run against the Eagles last week.
    
    The game was there for the Giants to win. They may now be looking at a
    first round game against a wildcard.

    
    Giants now have a two game losing streak.
    

    What was the final score?

 Dave, they had to take the first holding penality otherwise San Fran would
 have had a first down and been able to run out the clock. Didn't have to 
 take the second one though. 

 If they kick the FG they even could have won on a safety definately the
 braintrust was lost in space last night...

 mike    

    Don't you think that the Giants were pretty lucky to even have a
    chance at the field goal?  The fumble that the niners caused bounced
    right into Andersons hands.  That was the second break to go the
    Giants way.  Personally I thought the niner defense pretty much
    controlled the game.  The defensive line for the niners played great.
    I realize that being a niner fan might taint my vision but I thought
    the defense pretty much controlled the Giants.  In my years of watching
    49ers, I have never witnessed that aggressive of a defense.
    
    Frank 9er Mendez
    

    Frank,
    
    The Giants defense also dicatated the game,  and in reality, the
    Niners had only one scoring chance.  The Niners' defense played
    very well, but I think both offenses had problems against the opponents
    defenses (hence the 7-3 score...)
    
    I've felt for years that the Niners defense has been vastly underrated,
    and I feel the Niners defense is the main reason why the Niners
    have all the rings - not the offense or the coaching staff.   Their
    defense makes the team click.
    
    JD

It was tough for me to watch the game, because first, I've always
been a big Jim Burt fan, and second Romanowski, who's finally getting
the recognition he deserves, is almost a home-town boy.  

He's from Vernon, CT, which is just a couple of towns over from
where I grew up....  he still has home town roots too....

'Saw

    The SF/Giants game was the most-watched game in Monday night's 25
    years.  Guess next weeks will be the least watched.
    
    	--dan'l

       According to todays Globe it's the 2nd most watched MNF game. The
    King is the Bears-Fish game in 1985.
                                        Denny

    ...and BTW, MNF hasn't been around 25 years, it started in 1970.
                                    Denny

    	That's right Denny and I believe the first Monday Night game
    was the Cleveland Browns versus the New York Jests, where the most
    overrated quarterback to ever play football showed a national audience
    just what a fraud he was.
    
    				/Don

    Hey /Don, who eas the most overrated Qb that night for Cleveland?
    
    REK

    	HAHAHAHA�.  But seriously REK, I would've taken Bill Nelson
    over Joe Willie any day.
    
    				/Don

    >	HAHAHAHA�.  But seriously REK, I would've taken Bill Nelson
    >over Joe Willie any day.
    
    Which explains why you have Patriot season tickets, and USE them!
    
    Dan

    No ?DON, just being truthful... Joe Willie may not be the best ever but
    at the time HE WAS THE BEST AROUND AT THAT TIME!!! Nelson.. 
    give me a break... Did he EVER pass a ball longer than 50 yards?.. 
    IN THE AIR?.. He had a good touch for the short game but not anything 
    over 50 yards...
    
    REK

    Look for a BIG upset when the Vikes pay a little visit to Jersey.
    
    Vikes-26
    Gints-20
    
    

    Very good games yesterday.  LT and the Giants defense really answered
    the bell in the second half.  Parcells once again gives the bettors a 
    heart attack.  My sports service gave the Giants out yesterday as there
    NFL Lock of the year.  So Billy boy makes me sweat in the final minute.
    He lets the 45 second clock run down to 1 calls time out, then he kicks
    the field goal.  I thought he would try to score on 4th down.  After
    further review I just broke the TV.  First they signal touchdown for
    OJ, I jump through the roof!  Then I heard they are reviewing this
    upstairs to see if he knee went down before he crossed the goal line.
    Oh No!!!!!!!!  Before the game I was 28 years old, by the end I may
    have reached 40!  My friends always say, hey either you covered the
    spread or you didnt.  Obviously he didnt have the Giants minus the 6
    and half yesterday.
    
    Greg
      
    
    

    
    Just as important for the Giants yesterday was the loss by the Bears to
    the 'skins.  They are now in position to have a week off, if they can
    win the rest of their games.  
    
    Bruce

    >My sports service gave the Giants out yesterday as there
    >NFL Lock of the year. 
    
    Do you really give your hard earned cash to one of those con men?  Do
    you realize they gave out the Vikings as lock of the year to the other
    half of their clientele?
    
    Dan