Conference 7.286::sports_90

    So, has a decision on who will QB this weekend been made yet?

    Ryan.
    
    JoJ

Yeah, Mr Hershey-Squirts-in-his-shorts....

    Hey, I thought we were going to limit the junks notes in here!!
    
                    REK
    
    PS Easy-on-my-back is starting for the New Jersy Jests this weekend...

    Strange coaching by the nose picker. He starts Eason,Tony plays
    well for a girl(10-14) and then brings in sore shouldered K-K-Kenny
    who mails in the second half. O'Brien's big worry right now is that
    his shoulder heals into for golf.
    
    One more embarrassing week left in the Walton era.

    I think that Walton is history....no doubt about it.
    
    But, the Jets could beat the Bills next week and give Miami the
    division....that is if the Fish can beat the Chiefs.
    
    JoJ

    The Jets will finally have a good draft this spring. They've stolen
    Stienberg from the Patsies....
    

    I havee kind of mixed feelings about Steinberg leaving the Pats.  The
    team (or was it him?) made some awful blunderous draft picks.  Twice
    this decade they've the the #1 pick in the entire draft.  Who'd they
    take?  Ken Sims and Irving Fryar.
    
    Bad picks			Good picks
    =========			==========
    Ken Sims (#1)               John Stephens (#1)
    Irving Fryar (#1)           Bruce Armstrong (#1)         
    Tony Eason (#1)             Andre Tippet (#2)
    Trevor Matich (#1)          Ronnie Lippet (#4?)
    Mike Ruth (#2)              Brent Williams (#8?)
    Reggie Dupard (#1)
    
    The biggest mistake was trading a pick with San Fran a few years ago. 
    The Pats traded postions with San Fran who went on to take Jerry Rice
    and the Patriots drafted Matich.  Of course, had Jerry Rice played for
    New England those outside the area would probably never have heard of 
    the guy.
    
    					Steve

    Eason and Fryar probably both looked like great picks at the time.
    
    As far as I'm concerned, the Jets' draft couldn't possibly end up
    worse than it has been during the Walton years....
    
    JoJ

      Since the mid-70s (Steinberg years), the Pats have the 6th best
    overall record in the NFL.
                                   Denny

    < Note 31.11 by SALEM::RIEU "We're Taxachusetts...AGAIN" >


>      Since the mid-70s (Steinberg years), the Pats have the 6th best
>    overall record in the NFL....
    
    
    ....and still have nada to show for it.
    
    HTH
    
    Mark.

    Not Steinberg's fault, is it?  He got them there... need the players
    and coach to perform...

    I just bought 'Nose to Nose' by Klecko/Fields....
    
    It's clear the Walton is a negative influence on the players, if
    what they say is fack(tm).
    
    Walton actually had the filberts to blame Joe Fields' return in
    1986 for the 5 game losing streak....
    
    What a pea-brain.
    
    JoJ

    I don't think you can write off the selection of Ken Sims as a bad
    choice.  When Ken Sims is healthy he shows why he was the #1 pick
    overall that year.  Noone could have predicted the injuries that Sims
    has been hit with.  He wasn't fragile in college, he didn't have a
    weight problem, and he always looked in good overall shape.
    
    When Mandarich was drafted, the Pats needed a center and not another
    wide receiver.  Admittedly Rice wasn't just another wide receiver as it
    turned out, but the Pats needed someone to step into Brock's shoes more
    than they needed a back up to Stanley Morgan.
    
    And I know it don't count among most Sports noters, but the Pats do
    have and AFC Championship and a few playoff appearances in the
    Steinberg era.

    Rumor has it that one of the reasons that Steinberg left the Pats was
    that he was unhappy with the decision to waive Eason.  Of course $3.65
    million didn't hurt either.

Not only Eason, but Matich and Dupard, Chris Gannon and a few other young
players. 

Steinberg has been outvoted by the coaching staff on a number of personel
moves. Mainly, he is looking at the long term, while the coaches are looking
at the short term (for obvious reasons).

Too bad Kiam won't let him perform his house cleaning chores here in New
England.

    Mac, methinks you are confusing Trevor Matich with Tony Mandarich.
    
    Mark.

    Gotta agree that Steinberg did a superb job for the Pats.  What
    the team did with the athletes he selected was not his fault.  
    
    I think he'll be a tremendous asset to the Jets, and have told
    JoJ in mail that the Jets will be a consistent contender in 2-3
    years.  
    
    Why?  Cause Steinberg now has total control of the players and the
    coaching staff.  He's been consistently rated as one of the very
    brightest football minds in the NFL.  The Pats kept Pat Sullivan,
    probably because of something in the sale to Kiam.  But, it's a
    definite loss for N.E. 

    Lee

    Headline Sports reported last night that Steinberg's first official act
    with the Jets may be to fire Joe Walton on Tuesday...stay tuned.
    
    
    py

    
    Oh, c'mon... You mean they don't have the guts to fire him on
    Christmas?
    
    glenn
    

    Eason starts Sunday.

    Starts what?

Ankle-biting agin...

HTH,
Chainsaw

    O'Brien is scheduled to have his shoulder 'scoped today.

    Merry F__KING  Christmas,  Joe.....  You're Outta Here !!
    
    
    
    Big Game

    re:.22 >Eason starts Sunday.
       This should help him keep down the # of times he curls up into
    a ball. 
    The Jest play Saturday!
    HTH
                                      Denny
                                            

    Yea Denny,  That should help quite a bit.......
    
    Big Game

    Well, BD and his entire coaching staff were fired yesterday, according
    to a radio report.
    
    Any conjecture on his replacement?
    
    Lee

    ALL I CAN SAY IS....CONGRATS!
    
    JoJ
    
    PS - Jets - Walton = championship

    Looks like the Jet's new GM is looking to make the NY Jets a real
    contender in the weakest division in the league. 
    
    Jeff

    Steinberg supposedly talked to Bill Walsh who turned the job down, but
    Walsh recommended his old offensive coordinator at San Fran and the
    Cincy offensive coordinator.  The list of candidates is pretty long and
    includes the ex-Phoenix coach and a few college coaches.

       I think they should hire Ron Erhardt away from the Jints!
                                       Denny

    Not only did they clean out the coaching staff (sweeping out one
    of my former college coaches, Special Teams Coach Larry Pasquale
    in the process), but Player Personnel Director Mike Hickey also
    resigned.  Mike and Dick were scouts together with the Patriots
    back in the mid-seventies before Dick left and Mike left, and Mike
    has been largely responsible for the Jets drafts the last few years.
    
    John

    
    A small nit, the 49er coach Walsh suggested is Mike Holmgren, the
    current offensive coordinator.  He was the QB coach under Walsh,
    Walsh was the offensive coordinator.  Walsh was also contacted about
    the Atlanta job, and suggested Holmgren for that one too.  He also
    suggested one of the Bengals coaches who he worked with when he
    was under Wyche.
    
    Bruce

Steinberg will go out and hire Les Steckle.

What a guy huh Spud?

daryll

    Hey! Les worked for the Pats, Steinberg worked for the Pats...
                                     Denny

QB Coach I believe.....

    I get it.  This whole season has been a plot between Hess and Kiam to
    move the Pats out of New England and turn all of the Pats fans to Jets
    fans.  First the QB controversy in NE, then the feud over the stadium,
    Eason picked up by the Jets, Steinberg takes the Jets GM job, Steinberg
    hires Patriot coaches.  It's all there!  The Jets become the Patriots,
    Kiam sells the decimated NE franchise and makes a bundle, and the Jets
    actually become a real football team again.
    
    Or maybe it was a plot between Sullivan and Hess to make Kiam look like
    a jerk so that the Sullivans can pick up another franchise when Kiam
    has to bail out and sell the Pats to Jacksonville, FL.

    Hey Mac, why would the Jets want anything the Pats have, after all,
    the Jets get the number 2 pick, but the pats get number 3....not much
    difference between the two, huh?
    
    JoJ

    Mike, check out the title of this topic.  This topic IS the
    J(ets)N(ote).  
    
    Besides, I kept hearing from New England fans that Kiam was making the
    Pats look bad so he could move them out.  I figured I'd throw in a full
    blown conspiracy theory.
    
�    Hey Mac, why would the Jets want anything the Pats have
    
    The Jets already took Steinberg and Eason.

>   Rumor has it that one of the reasons that Steinberg left the Pats was
>    that he was unhappy with the decision to waive Eason.  Of course $3.65
>    million didn't hurt either.

Dick Steinberg always impressed me as the Boston GM I'd like to have
a conversation with.  Gorman is pure PR and Volk is a master of giving
no information.  Steinberg was always one who simply spoke his mind,
and didn't bother bullshitting the press and the fans.  I have never 
figured out why the reporters always had Pat Sullivan on and not
Steinberg.

I think the strongest reason for Steinberg to leave the Pats and join the 
Jets was the chance to completely run the football operation.  He must 
have been exciting when the Pats finally were sold, but despondent that
the Sullivans wrote themselves into jobs as conditions for the sale.  A
man with Steinberg's reputation and common sense must have been
frustrated by always seeing a twit like Patrick Sullivan above him on the
ladder.  The chance to completely run the football operation of the Jets
was a sensical career move beyond all others.

Naturally the money didn't hurt, but you could see the Patriots true colors
to the end.  When the Jets were interviewing Steinberg, Sullivan went
right to the press and said that although the Jets were rumored to offer
more than he currently makes, Steinberg is too honorable to  hold the Pats
up over his salary.  The implication here is that if Dick were to remain with
the Patriots, he would not only forfeit his career goals, but also wouldn't
double his salary.  Anything else, and Pat wanted New England to know
that Steinberg was being sleazy.  Of course he wasn't, but it's certainly
interesting to see how the Patriots worked this.  I wasn't here, but I hope
come reporter shed some light on this act.

And then we have the debacle of Patrick crying to the press a day after
Steinberg successfully advanced his career that the Jets "stole" him and
he couldn't move under his current contract, despite the owner giving him
the okay.  The hypocrisy was galling.

If Pat Sullivan truly represented the best interests of the NE Patriots, he'd 
have fired himself as GM and promoted Steinberg to the position.  As a
Jet fan, I'm very glad he wasn't overcome with sweeping feelings of
guilt and common sense.

Dan

I was surprised that Pasquale was fired along with the rest.  I would guess
that Steinberg would rather give the next coach a clean slate to work with,
but I hope that Pasquale is given consideration to be rehired.  He has
worked wonders with the special teams, even after Walton destroyed
his personel at the start of this season, Pasquale has made them
more than respectable.

With respect to the next coach, a few names have been tossed around
so far, but the most reasonable thing sounds like it will be a current
well-respected and informed assistant coach in another organization.
It is extremely unlikely that a current college coach will be given the
job, despite strong rumors of Howard Schnellenberger.  Steinberg said
he'd have to be "blown away" in an interview to give the job to someone
currently in college.  There were also rumors of USC coach Larry Smith.

The other important issues are the players and the draft.  Speculation is
that there is no QB worthy of the top spots in the draft and there seems
to be a strong opinion of McCants, if he goes and Atlanta passes on him.
I think it could go to a strong franchise-type back like Blair Thomas.  A
project QB could be picked in the 2nd round.  They will go into next year
with O'Brien and Eason, it looks like, but they know they have to start
grooming the next one.

The other general personnel drift is that a lot of veterans won't be back.
Wesley Walker has been asked to retire.  Pat Ryan is 33 and has a h
history of concussions.  Marty Lyons has been plagued with injury
problems for years and had a bad year this year.  I hope that Lyons
gets a job working with the defensive line, if he decides to let it go, but
I think he'll give it another shot.  Dan Alexander has retired.  Next year,
the Jets may be the youngest team in the NFL.

Dan

    I've had the privilege of having several conversations with Dick
    over the years, including pre-game breakfast in St Louis when he,
    Raymond Clayborn and I were the early-birds.  Dick has always been
    very friendly, very open and candid.  He also doesn't take himself
    too seriously.  I learned quite a bit from listening to him.
    
    Dan, I have to agree with you about Pasquale.  He coached the running
    backs and the special teams when he and I were at UMass.  Larry
    is a special teams genius.  He may not be up there with Rusty Tillman
    but he's good and I hope the Patriots will hire him.  He had his
    punting teams using the same techniques for blocking and coverage
    that he taught with us, and they still work just as well.
    
    John

    I can't see Gene Stallings being unemployed for long.  He deserves a
    team with talent and some class in the front office.
    
    Mike

    Actually, Stallings is the guy I hope the Jets hire. Phoenix didn't do
    him justice. He's a good head coach. I'd be very happy to see the Jets
    hire Stallings.

     You're Jesting, right JoJ.......   Stallings would put
    the real KoD on the Jesters.  You would be begging to
    have Walton back in a matter of weeks.
    
    Big Game

    Jack, what is it that you don't like about Stallings?

     You really wanna know ?  I'll tell ya one thing right now, 
    the guys a loser.  When was the last time the Cardinals 
    were in the playoffs ?  
    
    Big Game

    The Cards have very little talent, an a-hole owner, and play in a very
    tough division.
    
    JoJ

    JoJ,
    
     Your first 2 statements are also true of the Jesters.  It's just
    to bad that they don't have the excues of playing in a tough Div.
    or the Cards and the Jesters would be very hard to tell apart.
    Have A Day, JoJ.....
    
    
    Big Game

    The Jets are lacking offensive and defensive line talent. They have
    virtually no pass rush. They have talent in the secondary, but without
    pressuring the QB they're gonna give up lots of passing yards. 
    
    Even an idiot like you, Big_game, can figure that out.
    
    JoJ

    JIMBO
    
    
    youre finally admitting that the nfc east is a tough division
    
    good man
    
    
    dinz
    

    re: JoJerk
    
     Listen you jerk-off,  just because your Jests suck the big one
    don't start jumping down my throat like some kind of half-cocked
    wennie.  You're absolutly correct about the Jest having no talent
    on the "O" & "D" lines.  But you left out the FACK(tm) that the rest
    of the team is made up of a bunch of wimpy little girly mon's, too.
    I really beleive that the Jesters will be lucky to win 5 games
    nexted(tm) year.
    
    BLAM(tm) BLAM(tm) BLAM(tm)
    
    Big game

    
    Stallings is a good coach, but I think he'd have trouble in NY.
     He is better suited as a coach of a smaller city, where everyone
    gets behind the team.  Phoenix was a great situation for him, I
    think Atlanta would work out well.
    
    Bruce

    re: Big_Girl_Hunter
    
    Why didn't you call me a Jack-off....much more appropriate.
    
    Also, I couldn't jump down your throat, there was no room in there.
    
    Have nice day you dope.
    
    JoJ

    Truce, Truce.....
    
    JoJ,
    
     Sorry,  I was just in a really upity mood this morning.  Must
    be the Hang-Over......
    
    
    Happy New Year,
    
    Big Game

    grrrrrrr....ok

		JoJ, you forgot to mention that the Jests need
	QB help in a big way.. When you have a trio of wimpy,
	no-arm, no-guts stiffs, you best be hoping they find a
	real QB, like Phil Simms, real fast!!!  ;^{)

Yankee_Rick

    Has there been any word on a new Jets coach?
    
    JOHN

>    Has there been any word on a new Jets coach?
    
    Yeah they've been without one for 10 years!

    The Jets are looking long and hard for a coach that will carry on a
    tradition that has been set by past performance:
    
    They are looking for a world class nose picker!!!!!!
    :-)
    
    JaKLe
    

    Great line, Mike....  I was floorward.......
    What do ya think, JoJ.....  pretty funny aye !!
    
    Big Game

    Re.61 and the jests needing a QB,
    Todd Blackledge should be available by next year.
    
    
    :-) :-)
    
    JaKe
    

    Sorry I asked
    
    John

       George Perles turned down the Jest job. He's obviously smarter
    than people thought.
                                      Denny

    Perles turned down the job only after MSU gave him the Atheletic
    Directors job.
    				Raider_Rich
    

       ...at NO raise in pay the first year!
                                          Denny

    
    George turned down the Jest offer because he felt it was Perles
    before swine.
    
    -Dick-who-sometimes-can't-resist ;-)
    

    Did the Jets sign Coslet yet?
    
    Redmen Phil
                              
    

�    Did the Jets sign Coslet yet?
    
    Yes

    Amen to that. Coslet will bring some excitement to the current
    Brain_Dead_Offense that Walton implemented.
    
    I'm looking forward to the '90 season. 
    
    JoJ

Right now, assuming Atlanta takes McCants, the Jets are looking at
linebacker Juniur Seau (junior at USC) or running back Blair Thomas
(Penn St.) for the #2 pick.  If/when Harris declares, that may change.

But McCants has publicly stated that he wants to get out of the south
and would like to play for the Jets.  That with Atlanta's recent stock
piling of linebackers with high draft picks might make them change their
tune.

Dan

    
    Funny Dan but I just read in TSN that McCants has no qualms about going
    to Atlanta at all.....someone is pulling someone legs for $$$$$$$$$$$4
    
    mike

    
    It wouldn't surprise me in the least for the Jets to draft a stiff like
    Harris with the 2nd pick in the draft. Look at what they did last year.
    

>    It wouldn't surprise me in the least for the Jets to draft a stiff like
>    Harris with the 2nd pick in the draft. Look at what they did last year.

To call Harris a stiff is absurd.  The biggest complaint about him is he
has tended to be lackadaisical.

Last year the Jets drafted Jeff Lagaman,  the guy your Uncle Al was 
well known as hoping to get.

Dan

    Jets will draft Blair Thomas.  Bank on it.
    
    NAZZ

    
    Uncle Al wanted Lagaman? In the 1st round, no less?
    
    Dan, Dan, Dan,
    Where did you come up with this one? That is total unmitigated BS. 
    Uncle Al wanted Steve Wiesnewski (sp?), and made a deal to get him.
    NOONE, I repeat NOONE, expected Lagaman to get picked until the middle
    rounds, except the idiots in the Jets front office. As it has turned
    out, so far, he would have been a wasted middle round pick. He has
    Shawn Knight syndrome, i.e. the team that wasted a 1st round pick on
    him played him only because they didn't want to look like total idiots
    to the fans for picking such a stiff in the 1st round.
    
                                                   HOOT
    

    
    The paper here had a report that Holmgren may have blown it by turning
    down the Jets job (I think it was a little of both, Holmgren turned
    it down, and Jets didn't want him).  Paper said it may be the cherry
    job open.  Steinberg is regarded as one of the top GM's and you
    have a team that has been a dog for so long that they'd just about
    have to improve.  Looks like it's one of those jobs that you can't
    help but look good in.  Contrast that with the Phoenix job.  
                                              
    
    Bruce

    Hoot, Hoot, Hoot
    
    Dan may (and I said MAY, because I'm not sure) have been off base
    saying that Uncle Al wanted Lagaman, but you are off base by the using
    the following misguided statement "NOONE, expected Lagaman to get
    picked until the middle rounds,"....
    
    Every report I saw had him as being taken by the second round. The real
    question in my mind is whether or not the Jets could have grabbed Hart
    Lee Dykes or Andre Rison first and still have gotten Lageman in round
    two. I think the answer is yes.
    
    JoJ

    It is much more likely that the Jets will take Blair Thomas than any
    other player.  It is a virtual certainty that the Jets WON'T take Major
    Harris!!!  As a matter of fact (or is it conjecture), I don't feel that
    ANY team will use a first round pick on Harris.
    
    And, as to the comments that the Jets just MAY waste their first round
    pick...as in seasons past....don't count on it!!!  That was
    pre-Steinberg.....and he is not apt to mis-use the second pick in the
    draft.
    
    
    Nelly

There's talk in W.V. that the Major may go to the CFL up north....

He does not play a pro-set....

Monty

    excuses ... excuses .....
    
    If any team is wiling to work with him a wait, Harris will kick
    butt for years ...

    Hoot, what you term "unmitigated BS" was told over the airwaves by
    someone in the Raider front office over WFAN a few weeks after the
    draft.
    
    What you term "a wasted draft pick" was called the 5th best rookie by
    Bobby Beathard a week after the current season ended.
    
    Dan

    RE: -1,
    
    I don't think the Jets are in a position to draft someone and *wait*
    for him to develop!!  That's what people use middle-round choices for!!
    If Harris could step right in and produce, that would be a different
    story.  When Tampa Bay took Testaverde, they hoped he would make an
    immediate impact.....same goes for Aikman and the entire QB class of
    '83.  Harris is NOT looked upon as being at the same level as those
    QB's.
    
    
    FWIW,
    
    Nelly

    The last memo was in reference to .86!!!
    
    Sorry for any confusion!!
    
    Nelly

    
    The RAIDERS might have been interested in him as a middle round pick.
    They certainly did not go after him. He is a stiff.
    
    How many times was Beathard wrong this year on the ridiculous
    "insiders" segment? To make it easier, how many times was he right?
    
                                                   HOOT
    

ooohhh...

I know i know....

 0 ???


What do I win ? Or is this another scam contest ?

I agree with ya hoot. Lagerman was a waste of a pick...He'll be gone in 2 years..


Metz

    People don't see Harris in those terms, because scouts are still
    predisposed to look for negatives in black QB's.
        
    The weaknesses that Vinny had could have been seen if a person wanted
    to look. Ditto for Aikman (Peete outplayed him twice in a row in
    the PAC-10, but did anybody really care ?)
    
    How many of those 'geniuses' thought that Randall Cunningham would
    be a force within 3 years ? Or Moon ? Or Peete ?
    
    If Harris goes to the right team with good coaching, he will be
    a perennial All-Pro (provided that Harris is willing to work at
    it).

    
    Ed McMahon will be at you door at precisely 5:00 PM EST with the check,
    today.

    What can the Jets fans tell me about Rich Kotite. He was named the
    Offensive coordinator of the Eagles earlier this week, and his prior
    employment was with the Jets. How was he at mixing the run and the
    pass, and how predictable was his play calling with the Jets? I just
    hope he isn't another Ted Plumb clone.
    

>    People don't see Harris in those terms, because scouts are still
>    predisposed to look for negatives in black QB's.
 
Give it a rest will ya Dr. M.  That's total B.S. big time!!!!
       
        
  >  If Harris goes to the right team with good coaching, he will be
  >  a perennial All-Pro (provided that Harris is willing to work at
  >  it).

Now that's heading in the right direction... And that goes for any QB
Black or White!!!!


From yesterday's paper:

Analysts Kiper & Jones

A lawyer for West Virginia Junior QB Harris said Wednesday his client
would not turn pro, but Kiper &Jones concur that Harris is not a first
round prospect as a QB. He hasn't worked in a pro-set offense and his
arm is not spectacular.. I'v heard that he will consider playing in
Canada. I think that he could be a big star at QB up there with there
wide open game....


Monty

�      <<< Note 31.92 by LUNER::BROOKS "DrM : The Conscience Of SPORTS" >>>
�            -< sigh ... give the man a chance, and he'll be great >-

Disagree Dock, and not because he's Black, White, or Chartreuse. The odds are
just against it. Most people could probably only agree on about 5 or 6
quarterbacks since the beginning of the game who were `Great'. (and Bradshaw
ain't one of `em. That team could have won with Pee Wee Herman at QB).

Mike JN

    re Kotite:
    
    Didn't he once play TE for the Giants a while back?  Post Bob Tucker,
    I believe.
    
    
    Bruce

    we agree on something ....

    Hey! Let's keep Dukakis out of this, okay!
                                            Denny

>    re Kotite:
    
>    Didn't he once play TE for the Giants a while back?  Post Bob Tucker,
>    I believe.
    
    
    	Whatta memory, Bruce :^)  Yes, he did play for the Giants, in 1967,
and again from 1969 to 1972. I think he started at LB, and moved to TE...

	Jim M

    Maybe Monty and MikeJN are right.  Maybe it's merely coincidence that
    black QB's abilities are usually downplayed in the draft and they are
    usually made to convert to WR or CB or go to Canada.

    re .101
    
    No Mac, I'm wrong, and they're right. I'm paranoid. Now that Moon
    and Cunningham have two Pro Bowls in a row, the good 'ole boy scouting
    network has reformed. The GM's and owners are now irrevseably
    color-blind. 
    
    I guess when Major was a freshman, he was pro material. But the
    closer he got to the NFL, the more he was downgraded. 
    
    But that's mere coincidence.
    
    I guess it's coincidence that Andre Ware was now just 'a product
    of the system', and 'too short' (he's 6'2"), when he shattered all
    of the passing records this year.
    
    Funny nobody ever said that about a BYU QB ... or Neil Lomax ...
    or any Miami QB ....
    
    I guess I is paranoid.
    
    Oh yes, and Rodney Peete outplaying Troy Aikman all through College,
    but then drops to the 6th round ? And when he was healthy, had a
    pretty good rookie year.
    
    Nah, it's coincidence ....
    
    Mac, you and I had better see a headshrinker. Where do we get these
    ideas about race from ? It's morning in America right ?
    
    DrM

I think that Major Harris needs the right system in the pro's.  I saw
him play BC twice (87 and 89).  I think he could be another Randall 
Cunningham.  He's a great runner, and can use that to open up the 
passing game.

On the Pats with the same offense as this past year, he'd be a bust,
but who wouldn't.  A run and shoot ala the Lions and maybe the Oilers
next year - he's better than anyone else in the draft with the possible
execption of Ware (I haven't seen him play).

Ditch Berry and get a real offense - he could be the QB the fans dreamed
Dougie would be.

Mike

Dock,

	You agree with me that you're paranoid?!

Funny.... I never said anything of the sort. My only comment was that I thought
it unlikely that Harris would be a `great' QB (That's because the odds are
against ANYBODY being a great QB).

As far as anyone in the NFL being colorblind... I doubt it.

I suspect the majority of coaches go right down the roster and say

Center and Guards - Big White guys
Tackles           - Pick `em
RB's              - Black guys
QB's              - White guys

ETC. ETC. right down the line.

When it comes to Quarterbacks, it's historically been a position a white guy
played. Then more Blacks started getting the nod in College, although the
wishbone type scramblers weren't considered NFL effective. That's probably
valid. Warren, Randall, and Doug have helped. (Peete hasn't..... yet). I doubt
if Harris would be especially good. I saw him play a couple times, and was
underwhelmed. If Ware comes out, I'd expect him to go first round (That many
yards in the air CAN'T be a fluke). Is he being downgraded? I hadn't even
heard. If he's 6'2 (legitimate) I'd say height isn't a valid reason. Quality of
Conference/Opponents might be valid, but as I said, that many yards is
impressive even if none of the other teams had even showed up. I don't like to
believe that he's being devalued because he's Black. I don't think that way.
I'm aware that some people do, but feel most people don't. That's not naivet�,
or wishful thinking (although it's probably giving some the benfit of the
doubt). You should be aware that EVERYONE doesn't think that way. Let's see
what happens in the draft. I don't think Harris deserves to be a first rounder,
I think Ware does. And as far as MY assessment goes, their color has nothing to
do with it.

Mike JN

Well, I rarely touch this type of topic, mainly because I don't
like to get in the rathole of explaining all the views that I have
which make up my outlook on life, but here goes.

Using the reasoning that black QBs are devalued because they are
black, one would also have to reason that white cornerbacks are
devalued because they are white.  I would put forth that there
are far more black QBs floating around that white CBs...

Have to look at both sides of the coin.

I agree with Mike. It's unfortunate that people think like that.  I  
don't.  I appreciate a man or woman's athletic ability regardless
of what color their skin is.

I also feel that if we're truly going to value diversity, we have to take
the "bad" with the "good".  Same thing with the first ammendment...
in order to guarantee everyone's right to gather and speak, we must
support the right of groups like the KKK and the NeoNazi party (neither
of which I'm in favor of BTW) to gather and speak.  It's the cost of 
freedom...

Just some views, FWIW,
'Saw

    Yo Francis,
    
    I hear you. And it is quite possible that there are reverse sterotypes
    put in to replace the old ones (black CB's for example). It is entirely
    possible that a coach sees a white CB, and thinks twice ("Is he
    fast enough ? Quick enough ?") about it. Scott Case is the only
    guy who comes to mind.
                          
    And of course, how many play CB in college ?
    
    The point is, is will a black QB be allowed to get a fair chance
    to QB ? The jury is still out.
    
    All I say, and all any black NFL QB candidate says, is to give him
    the fair opportunity to fail or succeed. Plain and simple. And I
    don't see fair opportunity being provided.
    
    I think that Harris can excell at QB. Tony Rice probably could not.
    But there are enough guys with talent, potential, and playing in
    the right college system to deserve the chance. 
    
    Ware and Harris have proven themselves worthy of the chance to play
    in the league, not to get screwed. That's all I'm saying.
    
    Peete, IMO, deserved to be selected much higher than he did. Why
    wasn't he ?
    
    Oh well, back to my padded cell ... :-)

    
> I also feel that if we're truly going to value diversity, we have to take
> the "bad" with the "good".  Same thing with the first ammendment...
> in order to guarantee everyone's right to gather and speak, we must
> support the right of groups like the KKK and the NeoNazi party (neither
> of which I'm in favor of BTW) to gather and speak.  It's the cost of 
> freedom...
    
    I don't understand, 'Saw.  Those groups are protected under freedom of
    speech, even if what they advocate is currently against the law.  
    Discrimination isn't legal, including (if it could be proved)
    discrimination against a black quarterback.  Why do we have take that
    "bad" with any "good" that the NFL brings?
    
    Personally, I don't think Major Harris can be classified as "great",
    but I see no reason from my own observation of his play why he
    shouldn't be given every bit as much chance to play the position as
    John Friesz, Scott Mitchell, Jeff George, Mike Buck or any of the 
    other projected first/second rounders.  I don't think this should be 
    taken so lightly.
    
    Mike, if the NFL coaches take that view of what races should be filling
    what positions, black or white, well, then, you've just admitted
    there's a real problem in my book.
    
    glenn
      

�> I also feel that if we're truly going to value diversity, we have to take
�> the "bad" with the "good".  Same thing with the first ammendment...
�> in order to guarantee everyone's right to gather and speak, we must
�> support the right of groups like the KKK and the NeoNazi party (neither
�> of which I'm in favor of BTW) to gather and speak.  It's the cost of 
�> freedom...
�    
�    I don't understand, 'Saw.  Those groups are protected under freedom of
�    speech, even if what they advocate is currently against the law.  
�    Discrimination isn't legal, including (if it could be proved)
�    discrimination against a black quarterback.  Why do we have take that
�    "bad" with any "good" that the NFL brings?
    

I wasn't referring to the NFL. I  was referring to society in general.
To have the privilege of freedom of speech, we have to allow
the aforementioned groups to have it also.  (Even if some don't
want them too.)

Another point would be:  besides looking at the QB issues, how 'bout
the CB issue????

just some grist for the mill....(another rathole)
Chainsaw

    Doc,
    
    Enough.  I've read reports where white kids are discouraged from
    playing cornerback, or wide out, or tail back, because they can't
    be as fast as black kids.  In every draft, there are highly touted
    college stars that aren't drafted high.  Why?  Many times it is
    because there is a world of difference between college ball and
    pro ball.  
    
    As for Major Harris, I've watched him for 4 years, Doc.  He's good,
    he ain't great.  He isn't the second coming of Bart Starr, Johnny
    Unitas, or Joe Gilliam.  He isn't Warren Moon.  He Isn't Randall
    Cunningham.  As for Cunningham - he didn't exactly come from a football
    factory, did he Doc?  And he was proclaimed and exclaimed n the
    cover of SI as the Future QB prototype.  Doesn't sound too old boy
    to me.   Everytime a black QB isn't drafted #1 doesn't mean it's
    an exercise in racism.  Get that chip off your block.  There are
    lots of fine WHITE quarterbacks who don't get picked up in the early
    rounds.
    
    Look no further than Doug Flutie - he had a better college career
    than Rodney Peete - and he was picked way down in the draft.
    
    Peete never impressed me as having the skills to be a good NFL
    quarterback.  He's better than Tony Rice, that's for sure. 
    
    JD

    JD,
    
    I understand your points, but you left some holes in there...
    
    1) Harris is a junior, couldn't have seen him 4 years...
    
    2) Flutie was a low pick because he already signed with the USFL.
    
    Still, I think another reason Harris did well was that he had a
    1st round WR to help him out.  It would be interesting to see what
    Harris does without Rembert there.  I don't think any of the QB's
    are worth a top 10-15 pick the 1st round.  Maybe Ware, but not
    George, Harris, etc... a QB has to prove himself for the worth he
    is.  Peete did that, I think that was partially baseball interest
    too.  People complained about McPherson being drafted low too, and
    he's the 3rd string Eagle QB....  No matter where you're drafted,
    you have to prove it on the field.  Majkowski did it, the others
    have to too...
    
    -Walt

    
  >  Enough.  I've read reports where white kids are discouraged from
  >  playing cornerback, or wide out, or tail back, because they can't
  >  be as fast as black kids.
    
    So if this is the rationale (and it certainly isn't true across the
    board), we have an explanation for the disparity at cornerback.  So 
    what's the excuse at quarterback?
    
    I'm with Doc.  Maybe the NFL is making progress, but anyone who denies
    that there has *not* been a systematic exclusion of blacks from the
    quarterback position over the years (rooted in the absence of blacks 
    at the position in the pro-style college passing offenses) just hasn't 
    been paying much attention.
    
    Yes, plenty of white QB's aren't being drafted in the first round
    either.  So what?  What's the ratio over the years?  How many black
    quarterbacks have *ever* been drafted in the first round?  One?  Pointing
    to the scores of white quarterbacks who haven't been drafted in the
    first round doesn't explain why there haven't been more than a handful
    of black QB's drafted in *any* round.
    
    Another issue in the drafting of quarterbacks, in my opinion, is the
    over-emphasis on arm strength.  Many of the greatest quarterbacks
    have had only average to above-average arms, but had already 
    demonstrated great precision in college.  Vinnie Testaverde gave every 
    indication in school that he had problems reading smart, changing 
    defenses.  He was drafted as a franchise player, though.  John Elway 
    received the same can't-miss tag because of his strength and speed, not 
    because he could drop the ball on a dime.  With the incredible successes 
    of players like Joe Montana and the immobile Dan Marino, not to mention 
    the Moons and Majkowskis who slipped through the cracks, why don't the 
    scouts learn from the mistake of overvaluing arm strength and size in 
    their computer models? 
    
    Because the whole quarterback position is a crap-shoot at best, I don't
    see any other reason but physical stereotyping that a Major Harris or
    Andre Ware can't be given the same chance as any of the top prospects
    I named previously.  They at least showed they could play the game in
    a major college program, which makes them as "proven" as some of these
    guys that supposedly can throw the ball through a brick wall but whom 
    most of us have never even seen play...
       
    glenn

    Glenn,
    
    You missed my point.  Big time.
    
    The arguement seems to be, from Doc especially, is that unless a
    prominent black QB isn't picked high in the first round, then he's
    being racially stereotyped.  I wish Doc, or you Glenn, would look
    and find out how many white cornerbacks have been picked in the
    first round, high?  
    
    The point is that not many quarterbacks, period, are picked that
    high, except in exceptional cases, like the 'Year of the QB'.
    You point to the strong arm, that works both ways, whether WHITE
    or BLACK,or PURPLE, or GREEN.  Just like wide receivers are supposed
    to be fast, yet many times the slow of foot, sure handed receiver
    makes it.  
    
    Warren Moon and Randall Cunningham are two of the highest paid QB's.
    
    How many other players, no matter there color, no matter there
    position, are passed up until the later rounds?  Shit, only 28 players,
    out of the thousands, and thousands, are picked in the first round.
    
    THE NFL DRAFT IS, DESPITE ALL THE COMBINES, AND COMPUTER PRINTOUTS,
    A CRAP SHOOT!
    
    Vinny Testaverde, your other example, was touted as a can't miss.
    He came from a school noted for producing QB's.  He ran a pro set
    offense.  He had the tools.  Like many players before him, he was
    deemed the franchise saver.  He hasn't done it.  Randall Cunningham
    came from a school noted for it's basketball teams.  A school that
    didn't play top competition.  Hence he slipped.  Happens all the
    time.  
    
    Ahh, forget it.  This is useless.   No matter what happens, folks
    won't be happy.   Yep, black QB's are stereotyped.  Aren't white
    wide receivers stereotyped.  Is either stereotype correct?  Is it
    right?  I think not.  Same thing, just positions are reversed.
    
    JD

I agree with JD.

I think that there are so many intangibles where young college
talent is concerned, that it is a crap shoot.

And all that my previous points meant was that, if the premise is
discrimination against black QBs, then the premise *must* include
the discrimination which goes the other way, against white CBs...

Kind of related:

	In an NFL film Bill Curry made a neat statement.  I don't
	remember exactly what it was, but it was something about
	"A football huddle is a family.  There are no whites, no black,
	just brothers..." 

Chainsaw

	
First, let me say that I really had no intention of starting a 'rathole'. Nor
as JD suggests, I have a chip on my shoulder. Not at all. However, when a fact
slaps me in my face, I *refuse* to pretend that it was a high breeze and
nothing more. So sue me. Some may think I'm on a racial soapbox. Nope. I'm
pointing out facts and asking you guys to simply consider it as food for
thought.

Having said that ....

>    re. 112    

>    You missed my point.  Big time.
    
>    The arguement seems to be, from Doc especially, is that unless a
>    prominent black QB isn't picked high in the first round, then he's
>    being racially stereotyped.  I wish Doc, or you Glenn, would look
>    and find out how many white cornerbacks have been picked in the
>    first round, high?  
 
JD, *you* are missing my point big time.

And stop putting words in my mouth please ! I never said anything like the
above ("The arguement seems to be, from Doc especially, is that unless a
prominent black QB isn't picked high in the first round, then he's being
racially stereotyped.") That's so far from what I actually said, it's unreal.

Look, Tony Rice is a "prominent black QB", but I most certainly would NOT
draft him in the first round, or the second, or the 5th (as a *QB*). He didn't
merit consideration.

NOW, let's look at the pattern that I've (and quite a few others, black and
white) have noted with regards to a Rodney Peete :

- Peete has great performances throughout college career, and phenominal
production. He is a winner, and consistantly outplays his rival, Troy Aikman. 
Decent size, good mobility, and a pro-style (if not hi-tech) offense.

- Peete is rated highly at first, in Kiper's scouting guide, he's considered a
1st round pick, at worst middle 2nd round.

- Rumor mill starts during scounting combine :

1. Peete is going to play baseball.
2. Peete has bad arm.
3. Arm strength is not quite as good as people thought it was.
4. He played in too much of a roll-out offense.
5. Peete is kinda short. (Somehow, he 'shrunk from 6'1 1/2" to barely 6')
6. Ect ect ect.

Next thing we all know, Peete goes from 1st or 2nd round pick to a *6th* round
pick. Granted, getting a chance to go to Detroit was a blessing in disguise (in
that he could play in a run and shoot in his rookie year), but look at the
money he lost !

Now let's look at the rumors. 

1. Peete is going to play baseball.

So was Bo Jackson, Deion Sanders, and John Elway (Remember him ?) to name a
few. I didn't see *their* marketbility drop through the floor.

2. Peete has a bad arm.

It seems that was a minor shoulder injury that was healed in realtively short
order. The Lions didn't have a problem with his arm. (Walt can correct me if
I'm off the mark.)

3. Arm strength is not quite as good as people thought it was.

Uh huh. Three years of ball, and he's a prospect. Year four, and now he
floating the ball ? Yeah, right.

4. He played in too much of a roll-out offense.

As did Neil Lomax, Warren Moon, ect. In any case, see Number 3. (BTW, did you
know that Ron Jaworski played in a varation of a Notre Dame Box-Single Wing in
college ?)

5. Peete is kinda short. (Somehow, he 'shrunk from 6'1 1/2" to barely 6')

I won't even bother with that one ...

And you know something JD ? I see the same pattern, and almost the same litnay
year after friggin year. I'm sick of it. Moon heard the same crap. (That's why
he went to Canada. In 1980, the NFL wanted Moon as a safety or wideout ...
ANd of course, people told me that I was moaning about nothing.)
Peete heard it, MacPherson heard it, Doug heard it (despite being taken in the
first round), Harris and Ware are starting to hear it ....

(FWIW, yes I believe that some coaches steer away white guys from CB, believing
that blacks are the only ones that can keep up with fast wideouts. I can attest
to that 1st hand. And doesn't just happen in so-called organized sports either.

Plain and simple JD, I in fact want all QB's to be judged using the same
ruler. If so, you won't hear a peep out of me. Hell, Major Harris needs plenty
of work before he can be a top QB. I know that ! And I also know full well that
he may fall on his face. So could Ware, or Shawn Moore, or whoever. 

But I'll be damned if I'm going to be silent while players are denied fair
opportunity. Let them be drafted where their talent, heart and production says
they should be. Not on some manufactured, flim-flam, B.S., psuedo-excuse or
'rationale'.  


And THAT, JD is MY point. 
    
>    Warren Moon and Randall Cunningham are two of the highest paid QB's.
 
So ? Let's see, Money = Equality ? Is that it ? 

>    Ahh, forget it.  This is useless.   No matter what happens, folks
>    won't be happy.   Yep, black QB's are stereotyped.  Aren't white
>    wide receivers stereotyped.  Is either stereotype correct?  Is it
>    right?  I think not.  Same thing, just positions are reversed.
 
I will be satisfied when I see justice done. Maybe some stereotypes will hang
around for a long time. Is that a reason for me to adopt the "Ahh, forget it.
This is useless ..." attitude ? No way friend. The first step is to at least
stop people from acting on said sterotypes. A black QB, or a white CB, don't
just blow it off, and imply 'it all comes out in the wash'. What will that
solve ?

The Doc - (Yeah, I'm a black QB (Nashua Touch Football League :-) ... BFD !)
:-)

    re .113
    
    Chainsaw, it (discrimination) may very well go both ways. But the
    white CB prospects have been less visible/vocal than shafted black
    QB's ....maybe there aren't that many ?

�    The arguement seems to be, from Doc especially, is that unless a
�    prominent black QB isn't picked high in the first round, then he's
�    being racially stereotyped.  
    
    I think you are missing the point, JD.  It's not about black QB's
    being drafted in the first round, it's about black QB's being drafted
    as wide receivers and corner backs.  You like to bring up the few
    number of white CB's.  Have any of these guys been drafted and told to
    learn another position?

    Mac,
    
    I've read where white players are 'discouraged' from playing certain
    
    positions, cornerback comes to mind.
    
    Doc,
    
    So Rodney Peete falls in the draft - BFD - he wasn't exactly the
    second coming of Dan Marino, or Randall Cunningham, or Warren Moon,
    
    or JOE Gilliam, or even June Jones.  He was injured for most of
    the first year.  He's not the only player to ever fall back in the
    draft.
    
    As for being drafted to play a different position, I'm sure it happens
    all the time, but QB's are more visible.   I can name some QB's
    that were better suited for another position.  Nolan Cromwell. 
    Remember him.  How bout all those wishbone QB's who never throw
    the ball.  Impressive W-L records, but not pro prospect.
    
    I remember Barry Wilburn (I think that's him), who was a white CB
    for the Redskins, talking about the heat he got as a CB, constantly
    being told he couldn't make it at that position, etc...
    
    A fact is that despite twice as many starting jobs, there are less
    white CB's, for example, than black QB's.  Statistically, which
    is the aberration?  If one equals racial stereotyping, does the
    other?  Or does it only work one way?
    
    And Doc, you bring this up constantly.
    
    JD

    re .117
    
    You're still missing the point JD. Evidently you don't want to be
    bothered with facts, so forget it until you do.
    
    As for the CB in question, WIlburn was/is black. I think you are
    refering to Scott Case of the Falcolns, whom I spoke of earlier.

< Note 31.117 by RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JO "214 inches in 17 days" >
                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Okay, JD, I give!  What's it mean???

Chainsaw

    I did not want to get into this but......
    
    > And Doc, you bring this up constantly.
    
    Exactly.  Sorry, but it's true.
    
    Can we *all* move on?
    
    Hawk

   FWIW: Dallas is having a hard time getting a 1st round pick for Steve
   Walsh. NFL coaches are saying he doesnt have a stong enough arm.
   He most certainly out played every QB he face while he was in college
   and he was good enough to beat the redskins once this year.
   
   Whats considered a weak arm. Most NFL team make a QB throw 10 footballs
   in a row a least 30 yards. Last year only Aikman and some other QB (can't
   remember his name) from the draft were able to do it.

   What everybody has to remember is that this year the draft is stacked
   because of the juniors jumping into the draft and only 26 teams have
   1st round picks this year (Dallas, Pheonix, Denver use there picks last
   year in the sup. draft). Mid to late 1st round players will slip a round 
   and maybe even more because most teams start to draft for "need to fill a
   position" and not for a player.

   I think Major Harris will be a talent in the NFL. But with the talent
   in the draft this year I see him going in the mid second round to mid
   3rd round. It is expect that 20-30 underclass student will jump to the
   draft this year he could slip even more. It appears Steve Walsh made the
   smart move last year jumping in the draft because he would have been at
   best a 2nd round pick. He would have been in the same shoes a Harris and
   lost alot of money.

Chuck

< Note 31.117 by RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JO "214 inches in 17 days" >
                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    I always read that those enlarging gadgets are a ripoff!
    Did you find one that works?
    
    
    inquiring mind, Cowboy
    

    Doc,
    
    Okay, it wasn't Wilburn, but the Skins did start a guy a few years
    ago.  SO, what you are saying Doc, is that unless it fits your
    arguement, it isn't a valid statement?
    
    No one is arguing that in the past, the good ol' boy network kept
    QB lilly-white.  That's changed, Doc.  Of course, when a black QB
    can be known to all as simply a QB, and not a black QB, will be
    the day when things are finally getting straightened out.  Right
    Doc?  Shouldn't have to count em up to see if things are fair and
    right.
    
    JD

    ... yawn
    
    
    ==============================
    
    One would think that the scouts would get past the superficial tests,
    but they are at least 10 years behind a lot of us. What most teams
    apparantly want is the perfect QB. Funny how all of these 'weak-armed'
    QB's make it big (Montana, Kreig, Tarketon and Kilmer in the past)
    ...
    
    I think that one reason is that the cannon-armed QB's threw it by
    lesser comp, and in the NFL, you'll get burned. A QB without the
    cannon had to learn touch by necessity. 
    
    FWIW, Harris shouldn't go higher than mid-2nd round. As for Walsh,
    forget the hype, I think other teams know that Dallas has a soon
    to be impossible situation at QB, and will force the 'Boys to take
    less for Walsh .... you know, supply and demand .....

    
    Well, I guess I should let this go, but since JD has accused me of
    missing his point again (big time, no less!), when I have stated my 
    opinion without referencing anyone in particular, I feel that I should 
    set the record straight.  And it is an important issue anyway, even if 
    we don't want it to be.
    
    I know there are only 28 (even less this year) first-round selections. 
    I acknowledged that the draft is a crap-shoot.  However, as long as the
    first round represents stature and a financially valuable ranking, it 
    is important, if not reliable.  I merely asked one simple question, 
    which did not involve the number of black starting QB's, the number of 
    highly-paid black QB's, etc., etc., although none of those numbers are 
    very big, either.  That question has gone unanswered:  How many black 
    quarterbacks have been drafted in the first round (or even in the 
    first three rounds, for that matter)?  Is this number reasonable 
    considering the number of quarterbacks that have ever been drafted in 
    the first round?  Can this number be reconciled in any way with the 
    laws of probability?  I say no.
    
    The white cornerback retort, while perhaps valid in its own right, is 
    a red herring.  Dock responded initially to the scouting reports on 
    Major Harris, and claimed it was yet another example of a symptom to 
    a larger problem.  I happen to agree with him.  Others don't, as
    witnessed by the volatility of the responses.  But let's at least 
    consider the issue that was raised rather than looking for others in 
    the hope that in some way they might cancel.  The NFL does have many
    faults, after all, and racial stereotyping (black and white), still 
    appears to be one of them.     
    
    > That's changed, Doc.  Of course, when a black QB
    > can be known to all as simply a QB, and not a black QB, will be
    > the day when things are finally getting straightened out.  Right
    > Doc?  Shouldn't have to count em up to see if things are fair and
    > right.           
    
    Shouldn't have too, but unfortunately the NFL is not there yet.  Once
    we do count 'em up, we see that.  Does that make us all troublemakers?  
    
    Will McDonough is now writing that the Patriots will use the *No. 3* 
    pick in the draft to select Jeff George.  Where is the "how many QB's 
    get drafted that high, anyway" argument when we need it?  As a 
    semi-regular Patriots fan, I personally will be incensed if the Pats 
    spend that high a draft pick on any quarterback other than Andre Ware.
    I hope Ware's stock hasn't fallen that far already.  I mean, the draft
    isn't till April, and it's only February.
    
    glenn

    re .125:
    
    > Will McDonough is now writing that the Patriots will use the *No. 3* 
    > pick in the draft to select Jeff George.  Where is the "how many QB's 
    > get drafted that high, anyway" argument when we need it?  As a  
    > semi-regular Patriots fan, I personally will be incensed if the Pats  
    > spend that high a draft pick on any quarterback other than Andre Ware.
    > I hope Ware's stock hasn't fallen that far already.  I mean, the draft 
    > isn't till April, and it's only February.
    
    Glenn, the last I heard was that Ware would be remaining at Houston for
    his senior year.  If Andre were to come out early, I too would love to see
    him in a Pats' uniform.
                           
    
    py

    Glenn,
    since your reply had 'JD" in it, I assumed you were replying to
    me.  Since it's unknown whether or not Ware will enter the draft,
    its kinda hard to say you'll draft him.  
    
    Doc,
    
    I was waiting for the yawn reply.  Typical, and not unexpected.
    
    JD

    Aww, fer God's sake, are we on this one again?  
    
    Gee, I guess it won't be long then before we start (yet again) 
    hearing the statistical "proof" that blacks are being systematically 
    denied the opportunity to be major league pitchers and catchers as
    well.
    
    yawn...
    
    -- FooBear

    
    Naw, FooBear, the MLB pitcher/catcher thing doesn't even compare. 
    There's a range of variables there, none as clear-cut to me as the
    paltry representation at quarterback in a sport where the majority of
    participants are black.  That and the fact that the few that have 
    made it have had to crawl and scratch from the lower draft rounds (or 
    even the CFL) makes it a little harder for me to ignore.
    
    Just trying to be objective, responding to what I see.
    
    glenn
    
                                              

    Re: .125
>>                                       I merely asked one simple question, 
>>    which did not involve the number of black starting QB's, the number of 
>>    highly-paid black QB's, etc., etc., although none of those numbers are 
>>    very big, either.  That question has gone unanswered:  How many black 
>>    quarterbacks have been drafted in the first round (or even in the 
>>    first three rounds, for that matter)?  Is this number reasonable 
>>    considering the number of quarterbacks that have ever been drafted in 
>>    the first round?  Can this number be reconciled in any way with the 
>>    laws of probability?  I say no.
    
      Glenn,
          QB's should be judged on there talent not there color of skin.
      Trying to figure out how many black QBs were drafted in the 1st 
      3 rounds of the draft compared to how many total QB's drafted in the
      1st rounds of the draft will prove nothing. If your good enough and
      scouts think your worth the risk your taken early. Over the last
      five years the game has become so complex for the QB position that 
      unless a kid is a specimen scouts don't think its worth risking a 
      1st round pick on a QB. Rodney Peete keeps coming up as the black 
      QB that slipped to much in the draft. Doc has stated that his size 
      shrunk to 6' tall just before the draft. Maybe he is only 6' tall,
      gee Doug Flutie was listed as 6' tall when he was at BC and we all 
      know that was a reach. Major Harris is not a 1st round material.
      Hes a second round pick but because of the circumstances of this 
      years draft he will most likely slip a round.

      Peete should have gone earlier in the draft maybe the 3rd or 4th 
      round,but he couldn't lead his USC team to a win in the Rose Bowl 
      and he fell apart in the Notre Dame game after he was hit a few 
      times. Maybe just maybe those the are the reasons he slipped in 
      the draft. Peete is good athlete and now hes playing in a system
      that is suited for his talents and should do real well in Detroit
      and the fact that he slipped to the 6th round can not be justified.
      But what would have happened if he had gone to another team whose
      offensive scheme didn't suit him that well, he might have been a 
      back up all his life and the 6th round slip could have been justified.
      The above holds true for a lot of players white or black and not
      just for the QB position.

   Chuck

    As for slipping in the draft - when was Marcus Allen drafted?
    Certainly a lot of guys were picked before him that shouldn't have
    been.  Must have been a conspiracy.  When was Joe Montana picked?
    Joe Theisman?  Must be a bias agains ND quarterbacks, yeah, that's
    the ticket.  How come Todd Blackledge was picked before Dan Marino?
    Must be biased against Pitt QB's.   How come Danny Abramowicz the
    fine receiver of the early Saints wasn't picked untilthe 12th
    round?  ANd on and on and on.  How come we constantly hear so and
    so is too small to play in the NFL, isn't fast enough, doesn't posess
    the arm strength, yet has a fine career.  How come?  Because  the
    draft is a crap shoot.   And the scouting combines and workouts
    they have go a long way to determining the draft order.  Have a
    few bad days, you can drop down, down, down in the draft.  Oh wait,
    that's too easy, must be a conspiracy.
    
    JD

    Black or White (or if you prefer, African-American or
    Whatever-American), these guys should count their blessings and be
    extremely thankful that they're getting enormous amounts of money, after
    an all-expenses-paid college education, for nothing more than playing
    the same games that the rest of us less physically developed people
    play for free.  Sorry, but I cannot feel sorry for a guy who's
    supposedly "shafted" because he only gets a half-mil instead of the
    2-mil that someone else is getting.  If *HE* don't like it- tough!  Let
    get a real job where it'll take him 20 years to make that 1/2-mil......
    
    'Nuff said.
    
    Hawk 

�          QB's should be judged on there talent not there color of skin.
    
    Chuck, noone is arguing that.  The basis of this discussion is that
    what should be doesn't neccessarily reflect what is.

	The fact that Moon and Cunningham have signed large contracts
doesn't mean that every NFL team is now color blind with regards to the
quarterback position.  As someone said, how many times has a black quarterback
been drafted in the first round?  Cunningham caught a break with Buddy Ryan
and Moon put up some hellacious numbers in the CFL.  But it's hard to say
if a black quarterback is judged negatively because of his skin color or
because he doesn't have the tools.  Someone had a note where he listed
the different positions and what color player a coach would look for.
Sad but true.  My personal opinion is the NFL has to many rules, to
many stereotypes, to many coaches and not enough fun.  If it wasn't for
gambling interests I probably would hardly ever watch.

	And don't trash on the Doc because he brings it up.  It's a valid
point, and he doesn't beleaguer it any more than MrT does John Thompson and
Georgetown.

				/Don

    Below, please find a typical 'smoke-filled-room' discussion, as
    conducted by ANY NFL team's scouting department and coaching staff:
    
    
    Scout:  'This guy is a GREAT player!!!'
    
    Coach:  'Can he help our team?'
    
    Another Scout:  'Absolutely!!!'
    
    Owner:  'We need a top-quality Quarterback.....is he our man?'
    
    Scout:  'He is the BEST QB in college...the best to come out in
             years!!!'
    
    Head Coach: "Better than Marino...Everett...EASON?!!'
    
    Scout:  'YES!!!  He is the man that will bring us a Superbowl
             CHAMPIONSHIP!!!!!!   GUARANTEED!!!!!'
    
    Owner AND Head Coach (in two part harmony): 'Sounds GREAT!!  What color
    						 is his skin?'
    
    Scouts: 'He's black.'
    
    
    Owner and/or coach: 'Sorry, winning the Superbowl is not as important
    			 as having a white quarterback!!!!  We'd much
    			 rather have a white quarterback than a successful
    			 team!!!'
    
    **************************************************************************
    
    Doc,  I'm amused by your FACTS!!!  They sound alot more like opinion
    than fact to me!!!  Are you suggesting that because you feel that way
    that it is undeniably true????  I disagree with your view points (as
    they pertain to racial bias) and feel that any evaluation done on a
    player is based on how much he will contribute to the team.
    
    
    
    Nelly

    I'm sorry, but this is ludicrous.  If you people really think that 
    first-rate quarterbacks that happen to be black are being passed up
    just because of their skin color, then yu're stuck in a time warp.
    
    C'mon now, admit it.  The only color the front office and the coaching
    staff cares about is GREEN.  They're gonna pick the guy they think will 
    put their team in the playoffs.  Or the Super Bowl.  Or on a box of
    Wheaties.
    
    Ooh, but there's _so_ few black pro quarterbacks.  It's just _gotta_ be a
    conspiracy.  Yep, I can just see the likes of Al Davis and Bill Bidwill
    sitting in their darkened offices, with their Klan hoods on, laying
    down the law to the GM and coaches:
    
    	"Win?  I don't care if he'll help us win!  Do you think this
        game is about winning?  Forget increased attendance, we're
        talking about racial purity here!  If we start letting
        THEM in at QB, who knows where it will end..."
    
    Right.
    
    But, of course, if you're convinced that racists (white racists of
    course, there's no such thing as a black racist) are everywhere,
    then hey! no scenario is too remote.
    
    -- FooBear

    Re: .135
    
    Hmm.  Yet another tragic case of reply collision.  Luckily, I was
    wearing a helmet.
    
    :-)
    
    -- FooBear

Foobear....  You forgot the mandatory swastika on the wall in your
scenario....

FWIW I agree about the only color that counts being the color of
money...

    
    The last few notes are gross mis-representaions of the discussion being
    conducted.  No one (well, at least not me) is accusing the NFL of 
    racism.  Racial stereotyping is the issue, not outright racist denial 
    to allow a black to play quarterback.  Just because it might be
    innocent misguidance doesn't make it right, or correctible, though.
    
    For what it's worth, I think the root of the problem is at the lower
    levels.  Again, in a sport where blacks dominate proportional to the
    population at large, very few black quarterbacks are recruited into the
    pro-style passing offenses in college.  Yes, I will admit that this is
    not "proof" of racial stereotyping.  But for those that will accuse me
    of misusing statistics or of misguided logic or of floating a
    conspiracy theory, answer the question, please:  For what *logical* 
    reason are there so few black quarterbacks at the higher levels,
    including the NFL?  I haven't heard one explanation yet, only
    off-the-track arguments over how much money they're all making or how
    few quarterbacks are drafted high or how low Notre Dame quarterbacks
    have been drafted, etc., etc., etc., none of which has even the 
    slightest relevance to this discussion.  
    
    Could we have a simple to-the-point explanation, please?
    
    glenn
     

    Glenn,
    
    For what logical reason are there so few white cornerbacks?  Is
    racial stereotyping a one-way street?
    
    JD

Simple JD....all us white guys are slow, and we have big butts...8^)


[Please everyone NOTE THE SMILIE ;^)]

'Saw

    
    JD, I've already indicated that there may be a problem at cornerback,
    and that the NFL is guilty in general of racial stereotyping.  Why 
    do we have to play point-counterpoint, us-against-them with this?  I 
    find comments such as "there's no such thing as a black racist" (I 
    know, you didn't say it) insulting to my intelligence and completely
    foreign to the argument.  I don't believe anyone has even vaguely
    insinuated that in here.
    
    The cornerback point has been acknowledged.  Let's move on.  As I've 
    said, the NFL has enough problems to spread around for everyone.  I'm
    certainly not going to defend *any* of the professional leagues in this
    country to the death, in a number of areas.
    
    Do we have an answer other than racial stereotyping for some of the 
    positional breakdowns (QB or otherwise) in major college football and 
    the NFL?  That's the issue...
    
    glenn
     

    Glenn,
    
    The answer - well, it has to start at a young age.  Society influences
    folks from an early age in respect to racial stereotyping.  In
    cartoons,TV shows, commercials, sports, you name it.  Nothing new
    there.
    
    It's a large problem, that hits at every aspect of society.  No
    simple answers.
    
    JD

    You're starting to catch on JD. Now just because this issue has no
    simple answers, why should we avoid the issue ? Or offer non sequitors
    and red herrings ("black racists", "white CB's" et al) like earlier
    in this note, as Glenn pointed out ?
    
    The idea is to start attacking the issue. But you can't do that
    until it's raised, and we get past this knee-jerk, diversionary,
    defensive B.S.
          
    As Sean Connerly said in "The Untouchables", "What sir, are you
    prepared to *do* !" (I'm asking rhetorically.)
    
    DrM

    I think that Joe Willie Namath was one of the best quarterbacks of all
    time.
    
    Why are the Jets called the NY Jets and not the NJ Jets?
    
    The Jets will probably win more games nexted season now that Joe Walton
    is gone.  Do you agree?
    
    Who's responsible for placing that Jets sticker on my bumper on the
    night of Aug 26th, 1989?
    
    Will there be another Giantsmania featuring a Jets-whooping thised
    summer?
    
    :-)
    
    H'awk

H'a'w'k' --

You're jerking your knee again....

/Don --


SHHHH, you'll get Dinz all aroused....    

    
    of course there will be Hawk.....
    
    maybe with special guests.....
    
    this year though we're leaving early...  ;^)

    DOc,
    
    You started (again) with the ranting and raving about black QBs,
    especially Rod. Peete, I pointed out the problem traversed other
    positions and racial qualities.  You ignored it, then did the usual
    yawn.  As for knee-jerk reactions, perhaps you should look in the
    mirror.
    
    JD

    My little brother is 12 yrs. old. His best friend is black. My
    brother is faster, but Brian has a better arm and quicker feet.
    Guess who the coach tried at QB....Thats where the stereotyping
    starts, my friends.
    			Rich
    

    
    Of course it starts early, Rich, but those of us who admit to seeing it 
    are "ranting and raving", "living in the past", etc.  I guess I wasn't
    around for previous discussions on this issue, so I'm not privy to what
    went on, but I thought Doc brought up a point pertaining to Major
    Harris that was at the very least a fair topic for debate.  For whatever 
    reason, some of the reactions were abrupt and more personal than
    responsive in nature.  I don't see where the topic, while maybe 
    controversial, has to be so inflammatory.  This certainly isn't the
    first forum I've seen this issue discussed, so it's not like it's an
    outrageous bombshell or anything.
    
    glenn

    If sports isn't a microcosm of society, then I'm Santa.
    
    I know, that doesn't make it right, but at the same time the issue
    is far greater than discussing men who are making mucho vs. mega
    bucks.  What about the average Joe's in this world who are
    discriminated against because of color, race, creed, sexual
    preferrences, weight, height, amount of hair, manner of speech?
    (No Hawk and Dinz, I'm not referring to either one of you)  :*)
    
    Until we, the inhabitants of this earth, can stop discriminating
    at the lowest level, the issue as it relates to guys making hundreds
    of thousands of dollars to play a game is not very important.
    
    Yes, it gets the publicity more than two guys competing for a job
    on a loading dock.  But that doesn't make it more important.  I
    wish I knew how to stop it, but at the same time I must admit that
    I've discriminated against others.  So, I guess we've all got to
    look inside ourselves first, and make the changes that will make
    us better people, neighbors, fellow workers, acquaintances, countrymen,
    fellow inhabitants of earth, and, fellow noters.
    
    So, these discussions will go on and on.  Hopefully, they WILL
    accomplish something, if nothing more than to make us aware that
    this problem won't solve itself.  Most likely, it won't ever go
    away completely.  But, maybe, just maybe, each of us will change
    a little teeny tiny bit for the better.
    
    Lee

    Lee, you mean you really aren't Santa?  Damn, how am I going to explain
    that to my daughter who, when seeing you after the game last night was
    convinced that she saw the man in the red suit without the red suit,
    and you not really him?  Come to think of it, I was starting to believe
    you were Santa too!  :-)
    
    Hawk
    

    re .152, .153
    
    Well said Lee, I'm glad someone understands ...
    
    re .154
    
    Hawk, if you're still swallowing that 430-proof rocket fuel, you'll
    see Roseanne Barr as Santa ... :-)
    
    Doc

    Doc,
    
    No one has disputed what Lee says.  I'm glad you understand.
    It's funny, I said stereotyping started at a young age, and was
    ingrained in society many notes ago.  
    
    The note about the guys' brother was a beautiful example of it.
    Not only was the implication put forth that the black kid couldn't
    play QB,though posessing better skills, but that the white kid couldn't
    play a position requiring speed.
    
    

FWIW

Saw an article the other day in a mag. said that the RAIDERS are
"Black Americas team"....  

Monty    
    

I know you'll all bash me, but...

Where the h*ll is Black America?


Doesn't that kind of thing propagate the virtual segregation we've
all been talking about?  What's wrong with America, plain and simple?

FWIW,
'Saw

    
    No, you're right, 'Saw, and I'm not sure what some unspecified 
    magazine and the Raiders has to do with the discussion...
    
    glenn
    

The Magizne was U.S. News and World Report... The context of the report
stated that Black americans relate to the RAIDERS as the team that
represents them and what young Blacks should look to as role models...
Several players were named as the role models.... 


Monty

Monty, I wasn't questioning the relevency.  But the way I see
it, as long as the media and everybody keeps making these distinctions
about "Black America", we'll never get over this issue.

I mean, US News can mention Black America, but how long do you think
they'd last if they started mentioning "White America"?

The whole situation is very touchy, but perhaps its touchy because,
like an operations, the doctors have been poking and prodding.  Perhaps
it's time to suture, and let the patient recoup a little before
operating again (if needed).


FWIW,
'Saw

    Frank, if you keep bringing up your latest point, maybe, just maybe,
    things might changes a little.......  :-)
    
    H'A'w'K

    This was also in USA Today last week.              
    
    A little FYI :
    
    - Black America is more cultural than segrationist. And it *is*
    reality. I'll talk with people about it off-line if you want.
    
    - The Raiders are popular among black kids because :
    
    a. In the LA area, Blue and Red are the color of gangs. Kids have
    been shot and/or killed some simply wearing the wrong color clothing.
    
    In contrast, black is considered a neutral color, and of course,
    when you talk black, the Raiders are *it* !
    
    b. The Raiders Silver and Black are considered some of the most
    impressive uniforms in sports. So a lot of young men wear Raider
    hats. As the popularity of black has grown, you see a lot black
    men wearing LA *Kings* gear, or Silver and Black Lakers hats, simply
    for the color.
    
    c. Popular rap groups often wear sports clothing. Public Enemy,
    EZE, and others often have on Raider and/or black gear.
    
    - Lastly (but definiely not least), the Raiders have long been seen
    as the renegades of the NFL and sports. The Raiders popular
    anti-establishment, independent, underdog, non-mainstream image
    certainly strikes a chord in anyone who is excluded or seen as being
    out of the so-called American mainstream.
    
    Hope this helps,
    
    DrM

>    
>    Hope this helps,
>    
>    DrM

It did, Doc.  thanks...

'Saw

    Frank, I hear and see references to White America all the time.

I never have. I guess I must be reading too much Shakespeare ;^)

I'll take your word for it though, but honestly, I've never heard the
expression up here....

'Saw 

    Joe Walton is the leading candidate for offensive coordinator for - (I
    forgot.  Must be a mental block.  After hearing JoJ rambling on about
    Walton I can't believe anyone would consider him as an O-coordinator.)

>    Joe Walton is the leading candidate for offensive coordinator for - (I
 

Maybe the Donk's???    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA(tm)

    re .168:
    
    >	Joe Walton is the leading candidate for offensive coordinator for - (I
    >	forgot.
    
    Please not the Patriots!  Anyone but the Patriots...
    
    
    py

	
                        I think it's for the Patriots.

Mike JN

    It's not the Pats, I would have remembered that.  I'll try and round up
    a paper and check.

    OK, I looked it up.  It's the Steelers.  Joe met with Chuck Knoll for
    about 6 hours.  The Steelers need to replace their offensive
    coordinator since he left for the Vikings.

    
    Whoops! A little slow on the ol' ctrl/z
    
    Bull
    

Bull, I hear Connie Sellica likes a man with a slow hand.....    

Vikes get new offensive coord.?

Yee-haaaa

daryll

    You mean the Bob Schnelker is out ?
    
    Wow ...

    What other kind of job can Walton get, anyway?  Any guy that can
    pick his nose and his *ss at the same time certainly qualifies as
    offensive.  :*)
    
    Lee

Rumor has it that after the draft, there will be another defection from
the Patriots to the Jets coaching staff.  This one will probably result
in another enjoyable Pat Sullivan conniption.  Frank Mendes is rumored
to be rejoining Steinberg in much the same role as he has played, whatever
that was.

While I was away in LA, the Jets plucked the UCLA offensive coordinator
for one of their posts, and before I left they had grabbed a new offensive
coordinator from the Bengals (Coslet?) and the Vikings defensive coordinator
(?) and another Viking asst.

Dan

    re .181:
                              
    >                         ...they (the Jets) had grabbed a new offensive
    >	coordinator from the Bengals (Coslet?)
    
    Isn't he one of the guys that Bill Walsh has been touting as a good
    candidate for a head coaching job?  If so, this could be a good pickup
    for the Jets.
    
    
    py

Floyd Peters gone to the Jets?

I haven't heard anything about this?

Spud, what the word there?

daryll

I don't remember it being Peters daryll, but I'm pretty sure they got 2 Minn.
defensive coaches, and I'm almost positive one was the linebacker coach.

Dan

    Joe (not Frank) Mendes was Steinberg's top assistant.  Now that
    Berry is gone, Steinberg will probably stay.
    
    John

    What did the Jets do in the draft ?
    
     A Jets fan forever
    
    John

    Blair Thomas.
    
    Mark.

       They also got Reggie Rembert and Tony Stargell. See what happens
    when they have someone with brains in the front office?
                                  Denny

    IMHO, next to the Chargers, the Jets had the best draft yesterday.  If
    Thomas' knees hold up on artificial turf, he'll be your superstar for
    the next few years.
    
    Is Al Toon (sp?) still on the Jets' roster?  If so, with Rembert,
    you've got a pair that could potentially be comparable to Swann and
    Stallworth.
    
    Great job, Jets.  They did their homework.
    
    	--dan'l

       The Jets also picked up the Terrance Mathis WR, New Mexico.
    Who is the NCAA leading pass receiver of all time. Mathis was chosen
    in the 6th round of the draft, which really bummed him out as he
    feels he's better than that. He says he has something to prove to
    himself and everybody else now. Although Terrance is small I wouldn't
    be to surprised to see Mathis (instead of/as well as) Rembert being 
    their new star receiver(s).
                                                       Carlos

    Mark Gastineau signed a contract to play with British Columbia of the
    CFL.

    Parade in Vancouver!!
    
    Mark.

    What was O'Brian thinking when he ran into the endzone and got tackled
    for the safety?  Who called that play?  Certainly not Joe Walton.  Who
    ya gonna blame now NY?
    
    	--dan'l

    
    
    re .193
    
    Who called the play?
    
    
    Tony Eason......:-)
    
    
    
    Lou

    >What was O'Brian thinking when he ran into the endzone and got tackled
    >for the safety?  Who called that play?  Certainly not Joe Walton.  Who
    >ya gonna blame now NY?
    
    I don't know what O'B was thinking, but the Jets have been trying him
    on a controlled role-out through out the pre-season and employed it
    about 4 or 5 times yesterday.  Given that Kenny isn't the fleetest
    afoot, and that he has terrible sense of where the rush is coming from
    and that the offensive line isn't a good pass-blocking unit, and just
    crumbles under a blitz, it's a way to give Kenny some additional time
    and get the receivers down field.  
    
    In the sequence of that safety, the Bengals had just scored to make the
    game 20-17, Jets, and on 1st and 10 from the 20, the Bengals blitzed
    and sacked O'B for a 10 yard loss.  That play was 2nd and 20, another
    blitz, and the roll-out and safety.  Not much they could really do
    except for intentional grounding or a dive for the earth before he
    reached the end zone.
    
    Jets were in excellent position to win this game, up 20-10 in the 4th
    quarter.  I think they'll take the Browns next week.
    
    Dan

    re -1
    
    Blair Thomas?  heck, that injury is treatable.  Hal Whitehair is the
    one we should be worried about.
    
    8^)

    
    	Hey!!!
    
    		I resent that remark!!!
    
    	Sick'em Bones!!!
    
    		WOOF!

    You mean you *resemble* that remark ... (tm)

    Everyone probably knows by now, but yesterday the Jets manhandled the
    Cleveland Browns.  They were up 24-7 at the half the result of 4 good
    drives in 5 possessions.  Meanwhile, the Browns scored on the opening
    kickoff on a return by the mercurial Eric Metcalf, and then shut down
    for the rest of the half.  The Browns at the half had 1 first down, 6
    yards rushing and 90 total yards.  
    
    Jets coach, Bruce Coslet, put the breaks on in the second half and the
    Jets basically coasted to a win.  The Browns did manage to sustain a
    drive late in the third quarter, and put a final TD on the board in the
    last 2 minutes of the game, but the Jets finally iced it as Kenny
    O'Brien ran around end on a busted play to gain a first down.
    
    Next week, the Bills on Monday night.  The Bills got thrashed yesterday
    by the Dolphins, so that may be a sign that they'll be out for blood
    next week or it may be a sign that they're significantly overrated.  In
    either case, judging from the Jets first two games, it won't be
    anything like last year which was a Bills blowout victory.
    
    Dan