Conference 7.286::fish

	Sorry to hear about your bad luck Gill.

Need a little more information...

	How big is the tank?

	How hot do you keep it?

	What type of filtration do you have?

	What type of medication did you use?



Here's what I had done in the past when similar situation occured to me.

REmoved activated  charcoal from the filter. (Else medication would not work!)

Cranked up the heat too 78F.

Did a 10% water change then added some E.M. tablets.

(Note, 25% water change can be very hard on the fish depending on the frequency)

P.S.  Had a 2 clown loach in the exact same situation as your's, they 
pulled through.

	/Guy

    
    
    
    The parasite ICK will NOT live above 84F.  Turn up the heat to 85F,
    do a 25% water change every week,  without medication.  That blue 
    crap will stain your silicon seams,  and any other plastic items
    you may have in the tank.
    
    It never ceases to amaze me how much medication you folks back East use!
    If you just do your water changes,  buy other fish that will clean the
    tank for you,  etc.,  you'd all be better off!
    
    Oh,  and join a fish club,  so you can trade fish, palnts,  etc.  And 
    you get to assimilate all  that knowledge from other  fishheads! :^}
    Rob
    Southern CO.  Aquarium Society
     

    
    Oh I forgot.  The ICK parasite will die off and the fish will be clear
    after 3-4 days at above 84F.  Then,  any ICK eggs that hatch will need
    another 3-4 days at above 84F to kill all of them.  So,  run the tank
    at 85F  for 1� - 2 weeks,  and all ICK will be gone. The fish will do
    fine at that temp., be sure to let your heater do the temp raise, nice
    and gradual to 85.
    
    Rob

Hello Guy, Rob,

Many thanks for your advice.  However I have used an Anti-Whitestop treatment but will 
turn up the heat higher, it's currently running between 77 & 81 - I find it hard to 
believe that the fish will survive at such a high temperature....but you know lots more 
than me so I'll give it a try, only my book says that when the fish are all at the top 
gasping for air this is lack of oxygen, turn the heat down or add oxygen....how does 
one add oxygen???

I know the cause if the Ick outbreak.... a power failure in the neighbourgh-hood, the 
temp went down and then only crept up to 75 and the snow/temperature outside probably 
did not help either.

One other question I have, I now have small (infact VERY SMALL) white wriggly-worms one 
or two seem to be about 2cm.   I'm praying that these are the Ick which have not yet 
died but I doubt it somehow, can you advise me as to what they are & how to remove 
them?

We did a 10% water change yesterday.

Many thanks,
Gill 

    One of the easiest ways to aerate a tank (add oxygen) is to add an
    airstone.  You need an airpump, some airline tubing and an airstone.
    This will create bubbles in the water that break at the surface,
    effectively increasing your water surface, and pulling carbon
    dioxide out of the water.  You should be able to buy these things
    at any aquarium store.
    
    When you say that your temp varies between 77 & 81, please tell
    us what kind of heater you're using, and how the water movement is
    in the tank.  Also, what kind of filter do you use?  A very good
    heater shouldn't vary the temperature this much, and many fish
    are stressed out by constant fluctuations such as this.
    
    The number one killer of fish is stress.  Things like Ich are
    constantly present, most folks believe.  But the fish's natural
    slime coat and immune system protects them from both disease and
    parasites.  Our job as fishkeepers is to keep their environment
    as stress free as possible.
    
    You're probably right that the power outage stressed them and
    triggered the Ich outbreak.  But it also sounds like this
    happened right after adding new fish.  That's stressful too,
    as the old fish get used to the new.  And, of course, the new
    fish have been stressed by being netted and moved to a new home.
    Many people quarantine new fish to give them a chance to settle
    into your type of water and care, and to give some time for them
    to show signs of any latent disease. 
    
    The last time a fish of mine died it was because I introduced
    fish without quarantine, and they were harboring an infection.
    
    If you haven't already, I also recommend a good test kit to
    measure for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and PH.  During the first
    few months of an aquarium's life, healthy bacteria need to build
    up to handle the ammonia that enters the water through the fish
    and breakdown of waste, leftover food, etc.  This is written up
    in great detail in good fishkeeping books, so if you don't know
    about this yet, you may want to look for a book or two on
    general fishkeeping.
    
    It looks like you're over in the UK.  There are also a couple
    of good fishkeeping magazines over there that you may want to
    look into.  A couple of them are imported to the US, and I've
    read them.  One is called "Fishkeeping Answers", and I can't
    remember the name of the other one.  In one of these magazines,
    they talk a lot about stores in the UK.  You may want to look
    these up to find the best sources for information.  It's a 
    sad fact that not all stores give good info.  It would be 
    helpful to know that you're getting good advice.
    
    This is a REALLY fun hobby, but the initial learning of it can
    be somewhat frustrating.  Please don't lose heart, we've all
    gone through difficult times.  As difficult as it is to lose
    a fish, try to think of it as a learning experience, and in
    no time at all you'll be having more success and more fun!
    
    Good luck,
    Karen.

    I noticed in your intro that you asked about fish to go with angels.
    Here's a little that I know.
    
    As for barbs, there are aggressive barbs, and there are peaceful
    barbs.  The key is in knowing the difference.  Tiger barbs will
    probably nip.  They're best kept in schools of at least 10 or 12,
    which will lessen their desire to pick on others in the tank, but
    I wouldn't take a chance.
    
    There are two types of barbs that I have experience with that are
    peaceful.  First is the Cherry barb.  These are small fish, no longer
    then about 2" (not counting the tail).  The male is a beautiful dusky
    red and the females are brownish and cream striped with reddish fins.  
    The males occasionally chase, but I haven't had any nipping.  Books list
    them usually as peaceful schooling fish, though some authors say they
    should be kept as pairs in smaller tanks.  I have 5 in one tank and
    2 in another.  They're all destined to be together in a 90 gallon
    tank as soon as I can figure out how to catch the 5.  They're now in
    a very heavily planted 29 gallon tank and catching them seems
    impossible.  The pair in the 90 gallon seem just as happy as the 5,
    and they rarely school.
    
    I also have gold barbs.  These are, to my mind, one of the most perfect
    of all fish.  They're VERY peaceful, not even chasing like the male
    cherry barb occasionally does.  The males get to about 2", and my
    females are much larger, about 1" tall and at least 2.5" long.  They're
    a rich golden yellow, heavily speckled with black.  When in breeding
    color they get a rich orangy glow to their sides, and the fins are
    orangy-red.  The males and females are both richly golden, but the
    males also have a greenish irridescence to their sides when they're
    mature.  I've had 5 of them for about 16 months, and I love them.
    They're mostly in the bottom half of the tank, and gently drift around
    the tank looking for food.  Very serene, peaceful fish.
    
    As for tetras with angels.  Depends.  Many tetras get nippy, and many
    are too small when little.  Cardinal and Neon tetras are famous for
    disappearing in a tank with angels in it.  They're small enough,
    especially when young, to fit right into a hungry angel's mouth.
    
    Good luck,
    Karen.

    Just thought of another thing, particularly since it's the mollies
    who are dying.  Many folks run with some salt in their tanks.  Yes,
    salt, in a freshwater tank.  Took some getting use to for me, but
    I now run with some salt in all my tanks.  Many folks use it as a
    treatment or preventative for ick.  Many fish come from waters that
    have at least some exposure (mild) to seawater.  Mollies, are in fact,
    able to survive in full strength seawater, if allowed to acclimate
    over several days.  Many marine fishkeepers use mollies as their
    cycle fish because they're so hardy, and find that the colors are
    more vivid when they're kept in saltwater.
    
    In the states, there is special salt sold for freshwater tanks.  One
    brand is called Dr. Wellfish's Aquarium Salt for Freshwater Fish.  
    Do not use table salt.  Some folks say it's ok, but most warn against
    it because of iodine or other additives.  I wouldn't take the chance.
    Most folks recommend about 1 teaspoon per gallon, though I've heard
    less and some run with more.  I've used this proportion for well over
    a year in my 29 gallon tank with ottocinclus cats, cherry barbs and
    gold barbs.  I also use it in tanks with white clouds, bettas, cardinal
    tetras, cory cats and pearl gouramis.  Note that these fish are spread
    over 5 tanks.  I haven't had any cases of ick since moving to salted 
    tanks.  I had some minor skirmishes with it earlier.
    
    I've heard that fish that are particularly prone to ick do better when
    kept with some salt in the tank.  Angelicus cats were mentioned as one
    of these.  I've heard some folks worry that salt will raise the hardness
    of the water.  For mollies I don't think that's a problem.  There are a 
    few fish that don't tolerate salt well, but as I recall none of them are 
    fish you've mentioned.
    
    There's a lot of theories out there, and over time you'll figure out
    what works for you.  My general philosophy is regular water changes,
    fish that like the water conditions that come naturally out of your
    tap, a touch of salt, VERY good filtration, stable conditions, wide
    variety of foods, and a lot of watching of the fish.  Their condition 
    is the very best test of conditions in the tank.
    
    Karen.

Hello Karen,

Many thanks for your very helpful response.  I've not given up hope as I am really 
enjoying my new hobby eventhough I've only got 5 fish left (2xAngel 2xLyretail Silver 
Mollies 1xSunset Platty).

The equipment I have is:  

	1 x 33 gallon tank - Hagen TropiQuariam
	Inbuilt heater now set at 81F
	Flav2 Filter
	5 Fish 

I'll try to answer your question.....The tank is not in a draft nor near a Radiator.  
The heater is built into the tank on the left-hand side.  The filter is encased in 
a black rectangle box on the left-hand side near the back, it's a white sponge, 
rough in texture, and there is a white stick which goes inside the sponge then back 
into the black box.  I know it's a funny description !!!  The water flow seems to be 
ok ie; it's not just trickling out, it's those little fine 2cm wormey-things I'm more 
concerned about.

I did purchase a PH Testing Kit on Sunday and it gave a reading of 7.5 which
according to the box was ok as I believe between 6.0 & 8.0 is fine.  I'll get one 
for testing the ammonia.  I did see the airblocks on sale so I'll look into this 
too.

Many many thanks & regards,
Gill Forster
CCS UK.
  

    Hi Gill,
    
    Yes, I think 7.5 is ok for mollies and angels.  Different fish like 
    different ph values though so it would be helpful for you to buy a
    book that describes the different preferences of different fish.
    
    As for the white wormy things, I've heard of something like this, 
    but I can't remember what they are.  I read about them in a magazine
    lately, so I'll try to find the article.  Problem is, I have tons of
    magazines and I think it was in a question and answer section so it
    may be hard to find.  If I remember correctly, they're fairly 
    harmless, but I wouldn't swear to that.  I once saw a very small
    white wormy thing in one of my tanks.  It was only about 1/2 cm
    long though.  I didn't know what it was, so grabbed it and destroyed
    it just in case it was dangerous.  Worms are not related to Ick.
    
    I don't know much about the filtration system you're using.  Sounds
    like some of the self-contained wet/dry systems we have here in the
    states.  Did it come with directions on maintenance?
    
    Best of luck,
    Karen.

Hello Everyone,

Simply just had to let you know what happened last night.  Husband & I were gazing
into the tank when suddenly a tiny little fry swam by....  I have or had a Sunset 
Molley but I did not know she was pregnant and she was giving birth right before
our eyes.

This could have been going on all day, but by the end of the evening we must have 
witnesses about 20 births but with the Angel Fish in their most of them did not 
last very long. We have managed to catch 4 and separate them but there are still 
some fry loose, I really don't expect them to survive but just had to tell someone.
Mummy Molley actually died later that night I expect she had breathing problems due 
to the recent Ick outbreak.

I'm now left with just the 2 Angel Fish - I'm convinced they but a spell on all the 
others just so that they could have a 33 gallon tank all to themselves!!!

Bue for now,
Gill Forster
CCS Warrington, UK.

    How's it going?  Did your nitrites go down yet?  How'd the fry make
    out?
    
    Inquiring minds want to know.
    
    Karen.

Hello Karen,

Thank you very much for your interest.

About 10 days ago all of a sudden the Nitrites tester kit turned Yellow - Yippee!!
Everything seems to be normal now, PH has slightly gone down too to 7.0 

We bought some "real plants" and 2xCatfish & just at the weekend 3xGuppies and
everyone in their seems to be OK....even the Angel Fish and the very small Silver
Shark (which is not a fast growing one I checked first) like the company.

I've so far found 2 very small snails which I believe you can get with real plants
but I'm not worried at least they will help.  Even the small white worms we had 
seem to have gone too.  I just love watching them and can spend anything from 5 
minutes to 2 hours just gazing in their....it's very therapeutic.

Thank you and everyone for your kind help.

Best regards,
Gill Forster
CCS UK - 851 1996

    Great news!  I was wondering about you too...especially now that I'M
    having a problem in a 4 year established 55 gallon!  In my case, I
    think it was my own fault.  I *think* I cleaned the tank TOO well
    (changed about 50%+ of the water in a massive vacuuming effort)!
    
    So, I now have a very unhappy 8-10 inch Gold Severum glaring at me from
    a temporary 10 gallon set up on my kitchen counter!  He was just
    getting too stressed looking as the nitrites turned the test solution
    redder and redder!  The weird thing is is the feeder guppies in the 55
    gal. are thriving!  The pleco seems ok also.
    
    Linda

    Excellent news!  Glad to hear that everything's working well now!
    
    And Linda, I'm sorry to hear about your unhappy Severum.  Hopefully
    his home will stabilize and you can move him back in soon.
    
    I had a really fun weekend with my cherry barbs.  I finally moved 
    them from my 29 gallon tank into my 90 gallon tank.  They were so 
    happy that they spent most of sunday spawning.  This was my first
    opporunity to actually witness the spawning embrace and I'm pleased
    that they're so happy with their new home.  Now I wonder if any of
    the eggs will survive the depradations of the barbs and gouramis in
    that tank!  The baby that survived in their old 29 gallon home is
    a good 1 inch long now, and I moved her into the 90 with the others.
    She's not the slightest bit intimidated by the larger fish or the
    big tank, and seems to be doing very well.  My first home-grown fish,
    I'm so proud!  :-)
    
    Karen.

    RE: .7  In regards to putting salt in all your tanks, what affect does 
    that have on live plants?  I heard a dealer say recently that he puts 
    some salt in all his tanks, except the ones with live plants.  Any
    experience out there?  Of course there is.  I hope you guys don't mind
    all the questions.  If you do just let me know and I'll go stand in the
    corner.
    
    Thanks,
    Litz

    All three of my planted tanks have salt in them.  I use Dr. Wellfish's
    aquarium salt at a rate of about 1 tsp per gallon.  My plants grow like
    crazy and have duplicated enough to spread around amongst the tanks. 
    It may depend on what types of plants you grow.  Plants which are 
    successful (and growing) in my tanks include various sword plants,
    anubias (several types), some sort of wysteria thingy, and a few
    others.  I've been less successful with cabomba.
    
    And not only are my plants healthy, all three planted tanks have fish
    reproducing in them.  One tank has a second batch of cherry barbs
    growing out, one has just-hatched albino cory cats, and the other has
    just-hatched white clouds.  I attribute this to the health of a live
    plant tank.
    
    Karen.