Conference ssdevo::colorado

I am very disappointed by the results of yesterdays election. The Home Builders
Association spent about a quarter of a million dollors and bought it outright.

I don't have a problem with Mayor Makepeace, although she was not my choice, I don't
think she will be a bad mayor. The city council races are another story an I think we
are in for a developer's holiday.

My .02 cents,
d.t.

    .1  The Home Builders Association spent about a quarter of a million dollors and bought it
    .1  outright.
    
    They probably helped buying T.V. advertisement and all of those garbage
    signs all over the place but as far as I know no voter fraud occured.   
    The election was won/lost ONE VOTE AT A TIME.  
    
    Voter apathy has more to do with the election than developer $$$$$$....
    
    "Mary Lou will do right by us" - stay tooned...
    
    The whole trolly feasco bummed me out - I will be avoiding Colorado Ave
    and Tejon, Nevada?  Lake? from here on out as this will effectively make 
    a bad traffic snarl during rush hour - WORSE.  Downtown parking will be worse etc...
    In addition you can pretty much trash all of the work the city did 
    to eliminate power lines on colorado down the dumpster - Colorado will 
    be reduced to 1 lane either way - now that is progress...  Trollies 
    travel at max speed of 20 - a large part of colorado is 35...
    
    Open Spaces - the city has a fund for this anyway another waste...
    I believe alot of this fund has not been allocated either - what makes
    them think more $$$$ will help if there is nothing on the plate?

    re -1 I believe KOVR is reporting 30% turnout
    
    re -2 I didn't mean to imply fraud, only that money is power
    
     

    I heard on the news this morning that 28% of the registered voters
    turned out for yesterday's election.  By the way, why was the election
    held yesterday and not next Tuesday?  I always thought that 
    election day is always held on the first Tuesday AFTER the first Monday
    of the new month.  Of course, I'm fairly old.  That may have changed by
    now :)

I thought April Fool's day was a PERFECT choice for an election day.  Especially for
CS...

    The mayor turned-out good.  The trolley car vote was a toss-up: I'll
    enjoy the trolleys, but I think it's going to end up costing taxpayers
    some serious money.  The trails thing went well: I don't like spending
    more tax dollars, but as long as development is out-of-control, this
    tax is the price we must pay to keep this place liveable.  The Nursing
    School vote was bad because we should have sold it for a profit.  The
    Civil Service Commision deal is good because it might get some illegal
    management practices discontinued.  The y'all-keep-the-excess-tax deal
    will be good only because our beloved lunatic Doug Bruce will ensure
    that the money is spent where they said it would be spent.
    
    Ms. Makepeace has it good.  No matter what she does, it will be better
    than Mayor Bob did.
    
                                       Greg  

    Greg,
    
    Right now the Trolley vote means those of us who support the trolley
    can really get active on fundraising.  Without the franchise the
    trolley was dead in the water.  The trolley's are available and already
    are being restored, as well as the fact there are some on loan.  Much
    of the original trackage is still in the streets, albeit under asphalt
    right now.  
    
    Mary Lou Makepeace is probably the least objectionable of the three
    clones the HBA supported.  they were all so firmly in (rectangular
    furniture made for sleeping and recreational activities) that I trust
    none of them.  Hazlehurst blew it with going negative first, Gillaspe
    with being herself.  the council looks like another clone of the last
    councils.  
    
    TOPS was goodness.  the other proposals, ennh.
    
    meg

    Meg,
    
         Only time will tell, but costs for projects like the trolleys are
    notorious for being underestimated.  My guess is that there is going to
    have to be an emergency bailout, and the justification will be that the
    money will get the traffic flow on Colorado Avenue back to the way it
    was before the trolleys went in.  
    
         Mark this reply for later reference.  Check back in 2000.
    
                                  Greg

    A trolley question or two...
    
    Will this be 2 lanes both directions or just one direction?
    
    Will overhead power lines involved?  
    
    Will this just be on Colorado or do they have delusions of
    messing up other streets too?   
    
    What hours will they run?   
    
    Will bus service be discontinued on Colorado or will traffic
    have to hassle with busses and trolleys?   
    
    Will the trolley folks add parking in downtown to accomodate 
    the additional demand?
    
    What are their ridership estimates?   

    
    the one thing that I don't get about the trolleys is why they are
    so big and cumbersome and UGLY! If you're ever up in Denver near the
    College that's near Elitches, there's some trolleys that run up and 
    down the main street there. They WORK because there is no other
    traffic on the street, and they aren't big bohemiths....they're free
    (you just hop on at one corner and hop off at the next)..I'm sure that
    it's the store owners who pick up the tab as a way to keep folks
    shopping up and down the street instead of heading off to the 
    nearest mall. 
    The question I have it, what purpose will this trolley serve? What's
    the goal?? They're as big as a bus, slower than a bus, UGLIER than a
    bus.....if the goal is to close that road off to all vehicles except
    the trolley to go for the nostalga thing, I could see it....We could
    use a street like the mall crawl in Boulder, or that one stretch in
    Denver (wish I could remember the name of the street) where there is 
    only foot traffic, street vendors etc....I just don't get the goal
    with this trolley idea...
    
    Meg?? Help!!
    

    16th Street Mall 
    Downtown Denver.
    
    Maybe C/S is trying the Nostalgic Look for the Trolley. You Old
    Buildings, Old Trolley, Old ________
    (you can fill in the blanks)
    
    J.D.Hill

    
    
    re .12
    
    yeah....but face it...some old things really ARE just plain old UGLY
    ;-)  (at least that's what kids keep telling me 8-}
    
    

    kathy,
    
    These are not the trolleys you and I grew up with, they are the ones
    our parents did.  I don't mind them and I live a block from where the
    trolleys will run.  (Now if they will only make Pikes Peak one way
    westbound and Cucharres one way east bound, but that's for later on.) 
    They don't plan to run them in the precious suburbs where those who
    don't appreciate history or tourist dollars can continue to live and
    pretend that tourist dollars are not the lifesblood they are for
    westside businesses.  The trolleys will be mostly PCC's, with a few
    wooden Brills being restored for special trips.  I see it as a low
    polluting mass transit with historical value as well.  
    
    For those who are interested, the trolley association does have demo
    rides down by the old Rock Island roundhouse, east of 1-25 off the
    Fillmore or Fontanero exits.  I'll try to get the information and post
    it in the near future.    
    
    The first phase of the trolley will not end the necessity for buses as
    it will end near Bancroft Park, and will not make it on up to Manitou
    for a couple more years.  What the planned route will be beyond that I
    don't know, but the eventual plan is for the trolley to run to the Cog
    Railroad.  
    
    meg
    

    .14  I see it as a low polluting mass transit with historical value as well.
    
    POLLUTION
    =========
    Granted they are electric - are power lines pollution?
    
    (a)CS Utilities have made a point to go underground in this area - now
       several miles of power lines will have to be hung - eyesore? 
    
    (b)Since the bus lines will be running up/down Colorado what saving on
      diesel emissions will there be?   
    
    (c) What additional coal will have to be burned to supply power to 
        the power lines that drive the old beasts?   
    
    There is no savings in pollution - MORE POLLUTION will be caused.   
    The only savings is with tourists driving up and down Colorado Blvd.   
    
    
    TRAFFIC 
    =======
    2 lanes or one lane either way?    
    
    So in addition to putting up with the busses on Colorado we need to 
    dodge 20 MPH (max) trollies - progress? 
    
    I think the older croud driving the issue needs to start living in the
    future instead of the past - are the eyesores of overhead lines, the
    noise/rummble, the traffic snarles worth it?    Stay tooned///
    
    I still have questions - 
    
    1 lane or 2 lanes effected?
    On street parking for Colorado effected? 
    
    I am sorry but in my opinion progress is not living in the past. 

    The west side has above ground utilities, and no serious moves have been
    made to move them underground, with the exception of the abomination
    along I-25.  Suburban milelage may vary.
    
    The buses that run to Manitou only run every three hours now, not
    hourly.  The buses in the OCC part run hourly.  This could easily be
    covered off of the Uintah route, rather than the colorado Ave route.  
    
    Personally, I would be please if there were more parking lots away from
    OCC AND more trolleys and buses.  If I had it my way parking on certain
    streets in this area would be restricted to residents and those with a
    resident's guest pass, as well as Pikes Peak and Cucharres being one
    way.  
    
    meg
    
    

Touch-typing this information in (excuse the typos, etc.)  Just adding
this entry as information concerning the trolley.  Not endorsing or
speaking against trolley or the author of the below article.

fyi,
Dan
================================================================================

In the March 21 edition of the Rockrimmon Journal, p12-13, under the
"OPINION" column, there is a letter written by William Rasch, Manitou
Springs titled:  "Opposition to trolley - Top 10 Reasons The Trolley Is
A Folley."

1. These are not trolleys!  They are old steel-wheeled buses that the
city of Philadelphia abandoned for $2,000 each because they are outdated,
noisy, inefficient, cold in the winter and hot in the summer.

2. How many tourists (85% of their expected ridership) would actually
ride this new bus system from the Colorado College to Old Colorado
City during the tourist season?  The proposal is a fixed, short-route
system that does not conform to any of C.S. Downtown Improvement or
Action Plans.  These plans call for more flexible routes, lower cost and
efficient, rubber-tired units.

3. Where will we put all the parking lots for the commuters and tourists
to drive their cars to so they can park and ride this new 3mile long bus
system to save gas?

4. These 10-ton buses with railroad tracks under them will be rumbling
through our neighborhoods so tourists can have a museum ride.  They ar big,
screech when turning and are dangerous as proposed.  We have enough 
congestion and noise already.  This is where we live, work and have to 
drive.

5. This proposal will not escape the Americans with Disabilities Act
(ADA).  The current trolley proposal calls for expensive handicap
accessible "cement ramps" and portable "drawbridges."  The proposal states:
If necessary the streetcar motorman will get off the car to stop traffic
while passengers are boarding or diesmbarking."  This will cause more
congestion.

6. Being a public transportation system, operators will be required to hold
commercial licenses, be tested for drugs, and as proposed, operate up to
20 buses, 12hrs a day 365 days a year.  Where will all the necessary
volunteers come from?  Who will train and monitor them for safety?  Who
is liable?

7. The double set of overhead cables and cross-supporting cables, every 100
feet (3 per block), will create more visual pollution that we have worked
so hard to remove for the last 20yrs.  The trees are not going to cover
up these cables in the middle of n. tejon, downtouwn Colo. Ave., Manitou
or Ruxton Aves.

8. Construction costs are grossly understated.  The Denver Light Rail
System, for example, cost $117M for the first 5.3mile section, and
$127M for the second 8.3miles.  They claim Phase 1 (3mi. of double track
and wires with tow turn-arounds) can be built for $3mill.  The engineering
and impact study alone will cost this much, if not more.  They propose 
that all this construction will be done with only volunteer labor.  Who
pays to clean it up if the volunteers don't finish the job?  And how 
many years will it take?

9. By their own figures they need 1.4mill. riders per year at $1.25 each 
or 3,835 riders per day.  That is operating 365days a year at full capacity
with two routes.  The entire Colorado Springs Transit system with 14
routes only carries 3.2 million per year all over the city for just 75cents
each.  There is not the population density or the centralized business
district to support such an expensive venture.  And as with most public
conveyances it will not pay for itself and we, the taxpayers,, will be
asked to pick up the tab.

10. The proposal call for 2 sets of tracks and cables in traffic lanes
with the buses stopping every 20min. to load and unload passengers.  The
turn-aroundswill require the busses to cross 4lanes of traffic to return.
the 7th to 22nd Street portion willrun in the center 2 lanes, loading and
unloading into traffic lanes!  These 10-ton busses will become traffic
hazards and eliminate valuable on-street parking.
   The Philadelpha and Denver systems have separate dedicated corridors
to keep these things off the streets.  Ft. Collins only runs theirs on 
weekends during tourist season.  Thisplan seems to be an ill-conceived,
unplanned dream child of some overly enthusiastic railroad hobbyists who
want to run their "trolleys" on the public right-of-ways at the public
expense.  We the taxpayers will have to suffer with and ultimately pay
for it.  IN short, there is insufficient population density, financial
backing or planning to make this work.  We, the taxpayers, are going
to get left holding the bag when it fails.

-- William Rasch
Manitou Springs
================================================================================

    .17 - thanks for posting this opinion - it was informative - too bad
    the voters were not informed as well before we voted this in.  
    
    I am still against it and will just have to avoid that part of town.
    Hopefully they will not try to put trolleys down Lake Ave like the 20's
    etc...

    I tend to agree that the trolley is a poorly planned idea, and I did
    not vote for it, I live on the west side. But if only a few 100 people
    come away with this--->"avoid that part of town" and head instead
    towards Kansas to do their shopping, then I see a positive effect! %^)
    
    deadhead

    .19 MY "avoid that part of town" attitude extends to Garden
    of the Gods also - in my opinion this used to be a nice park 
    before they installed the hundreds of signs all of the place,
    messed up the traffic flow, created the exclusive parking for
    handicapped, and generally made it harder to use the park.
    Even Red Rocks in Denver isn't this polluted with signs etc...
    
    Once they make this park only accessible via bus then the
    park will really be user unfriendly.  Too bad all of the
    people with "say" and "money" have screwed this town up so
    much.  Watch... they will probaly want to put an old trolley thru   
    GoG next...
    
    
    

    Hey
    
    And you thought the trolley would do no good.  
    
    100 fewer idiots on St. Pats, and during Territory days equates to
    dollars saved on damages to my car, home and property.
    
    Seems some people don't understand that we are a neighborhood and not
    their communal trash can
    
    meg