Conference hbahba::cam_sports

Does this mean you'll take all of your crap about judges outta the NBA
topic and move it here?

TTom

I object to the use of the word "Great" in the title of this note.

RE        <<< Note 10.4081 by HBAHBA::HAAS "more madness, less horror" >>>

>The outcome of some sports is determined by the opinion of the
>judge/ref/whatever and not the participants achievements.  These include
>figure skating, gymnastics, diving, etc. That George completes a double
>spin matters not at all. Only what the judge/ref/whatever thinks about it
>matters.

  I disagree. It has been my experience that figure skating events are won or
lost by competitors on the ice and that the judges rate the performances based
on how they perform specific technical events and how their artistic impression
compares to well know standards. 

  Further, I believe that what refs do is not all that cut and dry. In
basketball if someone drives the baseline and smashes into a defensive player
while making the shot the ref's decision as to whether the foul was offensive
or defensive depends on the refs subjective evaluation of the player's body and
foot position. This is no different than a judges in a figure skating
competition depend on foot position while deciding whether or not an athlete
successfully landed or 2 footed a jump. 

  I would repeat the challenge I made 2.5 years ago. Show me one person who
understands the basic fundamentals of figure skating (i.e. can tell the
difference between a toe loop and a sowcow) who agrees that this is not true. 
The one thing I've noticed about everyone who believes that top rated amateur
figure skating is not determined on the ice is that everyone who makes that
claim is completely ignorant of the most basic fundamentals of the sport.

  Listening to this krap is like listening to someone claim that baseball is
not a sport then finding out that they don't understand why some times the guy
who catches the ball has to throw to 1st and some times he does not. 

  George

RE   <<< Note 276.2 by IMBETR::DUPREZ "It's Baseball And You're An American" >>>

>I object to the use of the word "Great" in the title of this note.

  It's not "great" as in wonderful, more like "great" in the "Great World War"
or the "Great Plague" or perhaps the "Great Flood".

  George

    
      What's the debate about?

My comments were not directed at any particular sport but since you
brought it up...

The winner of this particular sport, figure skating, is that person
assigned the highest score by subjective judges. Period. It matters not
that you or the rest of the world think your tutu is better than the
nexted guys. All that matters is the judges' opinions cause that is the
onliest manner in which the outcome is determined.

And your basketball analogy is bogus, as well. No matter what the ref
thought or did about the charge, at the end of the game you look up at
the scoreboard and that's how you know who won.

TTom

RE         <<< Note 276.6 by HBAHBA::HAAS "more madness, less horror" >>>

>The winner of this particular sport, figure skating, is that person
>assigned the highest score by subjective judges. Period. 

  It's partly subjective. But in any case the score is based on what they do on
the ice. 

>And your basketball analogy is bogus, as well. No matter what the ref
>thought or did about the charge, at the end of the game you look up at
>the scoreboard and that's how you know who won.

  And at the end of a figure skating event you look up at the score board and
that's how you know who won.

  As for assigning points, I believe that NAZZ entered a note a week or so back
where he said he was officiating at a basketball game and wasn't sure if a
player should be assigned 2 or 3 points.

  His point was that he didn't know because he didn't catch the signal from the
ref, not because of anything based in reality. When a basketball player has his
foot near the 3 point line the number of points he gets is not based on the
position of his foot. It is based on the ref's subjective evaluation of the
position of his foot, just like in figure skating. 

  George 

>>The winner of this particular sport, figure skating, is that person
>>assigned the highest score by subjective judges. Period. 
>
>  It's partly subjective. But in any case the score is based on what they do on
>the ice. 

Thanks for making my case.

TTom

RE         <<< Note 276.8 by HBAHBA::HAAS "more madness, less horror" >>>

>>  It's partly subjective. But in any case the score is based on what they do on
>>the ice. 
>
>Thanks for making my case.

  How does this make your case? We agree that the scoring in figure skating is
subjective but that's not the same as saying it has nothing to do with how well
a skater does. 

  In college many tests are subjective. Would you say that all the scores given
on those tests have nothing to do with what the student does but are totally
fabricated by the professor? No, the subjective evaluation is based on how well
a student does compared to a standard. Same with Skating. 

  If your point is only that the scoring is subjective then fine we agree. If,
however, your point is that it is not based on how well the skater does based
on the standard to which they are being judged, then your point is far from
made. 

  The skater who wins is the skater who skates best, regardless if the
evaluation is subjective or objective just as the student who scores best on a
test is the student who wrote the best test regardless if the test is
subjective or objective. 

  George

    Where's the mod to invoke "cruel and unusual punishment" under the 
    Constitution, when you need him?
    
    
    glenn
    

    Last figure skating "competition" on TV that the wife made me endure
    impressed me with the subjectivity of this sport.  Half of the score
    in the short program and long program are based on artistic impression.
    What are the defined rules of artistic impression.  Gawd I hate to
    admit that I saw this but....Even Dick Buttons and Scott Hamilton
    said that judges are somewhat biased in artistic preference and EVEN
    POLITICAL preference.  Figure skating has great athletes and perhaps
    fine competitions HOWEVER is HIGHLY subjective. MORESO than other
    sports like Basketball, Football, Baseball, Hockey, Golf etc etc etc
    

    
      That they let the fans vote the winner tells you just
     how subjective it all is. When Joe Lunchpail can pick
     winners, your "sport" has real problems. They should 
     just have a swimsuit competition and drop the whole
     farce.

  No one questions the fact that it is subjective, just like half the tests
college kids take are subjective. But just like with college tests there is
a standard by which that subjective evaluation is made.

  As for political preferences, sure they run through all international sports.
Remember the 1st time the USSR beat the USA in basketball? Tell me that wasn't
politically based. They played the end of that game 3 times until the kids
"got it right".

  Or how about back around '68 or '72 when the U.S. had a record breaking pole
vaulter and the USSR managed to get his pole declared illegal causing him
to go out early?

  That's not the nature of the sport, it's the nature of all international
competition.

  George 

Re         <<< Note 276.12 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove" >>>

>      That they let the fans vote the winner tells you just
>     how subjective it all is. When Joe Lunchpail can pick
>     winners, your "sport" has real problems. They should 
>     just have a swimsuit competition and drop the whole
>     farce.

  They don't let the fans vote in world class amateur figure skating. 

/Tommy Mode On

  But of course you knew that.

/Tommy Mode Off

  George

 >> Remember the 1st time the USSR beat the USA in basketball? Tell me 
 >> that wasn't politically based. They played the end of that game 3 
 >> times until the kids "got it right".

    That happened once fourteen years ago. Every single figure skating
    match held is decided subjectively. Every one. Granted, there's 
    some subjectivity in every sport - there has to be. But no other
    sport has atheletes assaulting each other because of it or taking
    makeup lessons because of it. It's a sad joke.
    

RE         <<< Note 276.15 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove" >>>

>    That happened once fourteen years ago. Every single figure skating
>    match held is decided subjectively. Every one. Granted, there's 
>    some subjectivity in every sport - there has to be. 

  So what? There is no question that it is subjective, just as half the tests
that college kids take are subjective. Does the subjective evaluation of
college kids make all higher education a joke? 

> But no other sport has atheletes ... taking
>    makeup lessons because of it. It's a sad joke.
    
  This from a guy who's favorite sport involves guy running around in their
underwear trying to toss an inflated ball in a basket while yelling "foul,
he touched me".

  George

    I'll give you political preference... but what standards/rules/
    guidelines govern artistic impression or interpretation??????
    Remember that is HALF the score.....
    

      If youze keep this up, I will havta send Tanya Harding over with her
    woody...
    
      Tim

RE                       <<< Note 276.17 by BSS::MENDEZ >>>

>    I'll give you political preference... but what standards/rules/
>    guidelines govern artistic impression or interpretation??????
>    Remember that is HALF the score.....
    
  Skaters are judged on their ability to skate with deep edges, maintain
straight lines, skate without stumbling, incorporate standard ballet or jazz
into their program, etc. It's a subjective evaluation just as someone taking
a written exam in English Composition is given a subjective evaluation.

  George

    .13 
     
    >Or how about back around '68 or '72 when the U.S. had a record breaking 
    >pole vaulter and the USSR managed to get his pole declared illegal causing
    >him to go out early? 
    
    Politics in sport.
    
    Just to be subjective, I remember the 1984 Los Angeles Olympics, when in the
    boxing in the Light-heavyweight (?) competition, an Italian and an American
    were contesting the semi-final. This Italian pounded seven bells out of
    the U.S. boxer, putting him down 3 times, split lip, cut eye, major
    lacerations etc. It was completely one-sided. The Italian absolutely 
    creamed the guy. Yet the 3 American judges gave the fight unanimously
    to the American. It remains to this day as the worst sporting decision
    I've ever seen. 
    
    It's unfortunate that politics exists in sport and an even greater pity 
    that it effects the result. All sporting nations are guilty of it, even us 
    stiff-upper lipped, fair play old boy, tea drinking Englishmen.;^) 
    
    Oh and by the way, the pole in question was not illegal, it was just
    not on the list of IAAF approved competition poles.
     
    .16 
     
     
    This from a guy who's favorite sport involves guy running around in their 
    underwear trying to toss an inflated ball in a basket while yelling
    "foul, he touched me". 
     
    
    HA! HA! HA! 
    
    
    CHARLEY

   >> Yet the 3 American judges gave the fight unanimously to the 
   >> American. It remains to this day as the worst sporting decision
   >> I've ever seen. 
    
      It would not be possible to have three judges from the same
      country deciding an Olympic bout. It could not happen. The single
      worst decision I ever saw was in Seoul when Roy Jones pounded a 
      Korean fighter for three rounds only to lose the decision. Jones
      still managed to get outstanding fighter of the tournament. That's
      how bad the decision was.
     
   >> This from a guy who's favorite sport involves guy running around 
   >> in their underwear trying to toss an inflated ball in a basket 
   >> while yelling "foul, he touched me". 
     
      And figure skating involves grown men dressing up in outfits that
      would have embarassed Liberace and flitting about the ice to show
      tunes. And baseball involves two men playing ctach and a third with
      a stick trying to disrupt them, etc, etc, etc. Every sport can be
      reduced to that level.
    
    
      BTW - I wish I could have found a school where more than fifty
            percent of the tests were subjective. 
    

    .21
    
    Isn't America a continent? Sorry for mixing my definitions.:^)
    
    I also remember the Roy Jones fight at Seoul, I found that quite crappy
    as well. Absolutely hammered the guy as well. But that just goes to
    show that everybody is guilty of such a deplorable practice.
    
    Anyway, figure skating is crap. I'd rather watch a plank warp.
    
    
    CHARLEY 

    >     BTW - I wish I could have found a school where more than fifty
    >            percent of the tests were subjective. 
       
    Exactly.  College professors objectivity in grading essay tests is
    essentially what made subjective tests obsolete.  And the same in high
    school led to the SATs.
    
    Predication is always high on my list of subjective valuations and when
    the Olympic broadcasters could so certainly "predict" that the former
    bloc judges would vote the Ukrainian and the West judges Kerrigan with
    only the German judge in doubt then the "competition" became worthless
    despite being athletic entertaining "diversion".

RE    <<< Note 276.22 by CHEFS::7A1_GRN "Go GB/USA/Ken/NZ/Oz Olympic team" >>>

>    Anyway, figure skating is crap. I'd rather watch a plank warp.
    
  That's krap, not crap.

  George

RE         <<< Note 276.21 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove" >>>

>      And figure skating involves grown men dressing up in outfits that
>      would have embarassed Liberace and flitting about the ice to show
>      tunes. And baseball involves two men playing ctach and a third with
>      a stick trying to disrupt them, etc, etc, etc. Every sport can be
>      reduced to that level.
    
  Just my point. Figure Skating, basketball, baseball, they are all the same
when you decide you want to trash a sport you don't like.
    
>      BTW - I wish I could have found a school where more than fifty
>            percent of the tests were subjective. 
    
  How do you give an objective test in an English Composition course? They
are probably close to 100% subjective. Does that mean grades in English
Comp don't mean anything and students shouldn't get credit for taking that
type of class?

  George

    
      Just let it drop, George. Can you do that?
    

RE         <<< Note 276.26 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove" >>>

    
>      Just let it drop, George. Can you do that?
    
  Sure Tommy, I can do that with no problem. As always if your side never wants
to hear this debate again no problem. I won't start it if you don't. 

  The question is, can your side let it drop? It's your side that starts this
debate every time.

  Let's try again. I won't talk about this if you won't.

  George

RE          <<< Note 63.2301 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "wannabe figure skater" >>>

>Republican Bill Weld was
>     swept into the governor's mansion on the strength of one of 
>     the largest margins of vctory in state history and he took 
>     the city of Boston by nearly a 3-1 margin. 

  Massachusetts doesn't have a governor's mansion. The Commonwealth requires
the governor to provide for his own housing. Guess you are the one that was
wrong after all.

>     Someone made the slightest reference to figure skating and you
>     threaten them with the figure skating 'debate'. 

  ... after which, here Comes TOMMY!!!

  If it's wrong to do that why do you jump in right after me?
  If I'm right to do that what are you complaining about?

  George

Feeling my oats from having shown George notes to contain statements that
he didn't mean and lies about my statements, I feel able to contribute to
this string as well.

Once upon a time, this, uh, discussion, was something to do with
something and this time it was revived over a dispute of the role of
refs, judges and the like responsible for whatever they do with regard to
sports. 

I'll limit this to their effect on scoring. Feel free to take it
wherever.

Wail, upon further review, it seems that there are two different types of
roles that judges, refs and umps have upon scoring. For purposes of this
discussion, I'll call 'em all refs. Feel free to use you own term or
terms.

In the firsted set of sports, within the sport, the refs declare that a
scoring event has occured. Once that declaration has been made the sport
itself has a_agreed upon score for that event. The ref has no role in the
value of that score only the authority to declare that a scoring event
has happened.

This firsted set of sports include basketball, baseball, football,
hockey, soccer and I'm sure some others. In these sports the refs says a
goal, TD or run has happened and bingo the prescribed score is awarded.

In the seconded set of sports, the ref has both the authority of
declaring that a scoring event has occured as well as assigning the value
of that scoring.

The seconded set of sports include many other sports outside of this
unmentionable sport such as diving, gymnastics and synchronized swimming.
In these sports, the activities have no predetermined value so it's up to
the refs to award scoring based on the assumed prerequisites of their
sport such as experience, favoritism or bribery. There may be other
factors.

The thirded set of sports are composites. The scoring may or may not be
qualitative or quantitative. Boxing is a good example. You knock the
other guy out and you're given the win. If not, it's up to the refs to
assign a value for your efforts.

Sports like track and field, swiming and motor sports can be put into a
separate set but really belong in the firsted set. The refs declare who
won based on an integral measurement of the sport and scoring is awarded
in a predetermined fashion. A_example of this is the NASCAR points
system where the firsted guy gets 175 points and ever one else gets a
predetermined number of less points.

TTom

    
    
    
       Ttom. Shad Up!!

>       Ttom. Shad Up!!

What to do.

If'n I reply and agree then I won't be shadding up. And if'n I just
shad up I won't be agreeing.

TTom

RE          <<< Note 140.464 by PHXSS1::HEISER "watchman on the wall" >>>

>    I don't care either way, but to play the Drood's advocate, it may be a
>    factor in subjective "sports" like figure skating, rhythmic gymnastics,
>    and synchronized swimming.
    
  ... or basketball, or baseball, or hockey, all of which end up with scores
that are based to some extent on the subjective evaluation of officials.

  George

>  ... or basketball, or baseball, or hockey, all of which end up with scores
>that are based to some extent on the subjective evaluation of officials.

This of course is untrue on the face of it.

Take baseball, please :=].

The role of the judge/ref/whoever is to rule if'n a score did occur. They
have no input on the value of that score.

Please try to keep up with ground that's already been covered...

TTom

RE         <<< Note 276.33 by HBAHBA::HAAS "more madness, less horror" >>>

>Please try to keep up with ground that's already been covered...

  Yes this ground has been covered but I disagree on your analysis.

  In all sports judges or other officials make subjective decisions that
determine a score. For example.

  - The power forward takes the ball and drives the baseline. He smashes into
    a defensive player as he shoots and the ball goes in. What does he score
    on the play?

    It depends on the subjective evaluation of the official. If in the opinion
    of the official the body positions of the players indicated an offensive
    foul he makes a signal which is basically the same as holding up a card
    with a 0.0 however if he feels it was a defensive foul me makes a signal
    which is basically the same as holding up a card with a 2.0.

  - Runner on 2nd, the ball is hit to left field. Here comes the runner around
    3rd, here comes the throw. The ball bounces in front of the catcher, the
    runner slides, there is a cloud of dust.

    The umpire makes one of two signals which are the same as holding up a card
    with a 0.0 or holding up a card with a 1.0.

  - Long pass into the endzone. The receiver and back both go up for the ball.
    They crash together. The receiver comes down with the ball.

    Depending on whether he feels the players bodies were in the position for
    offensive pass interference or not the official makes a signal which is the
    same as holding up a card for 0.0 or 6.0.

  In fact I think the only thing we agreed on was that Down Hill skiing was not
a subjective sport. You kick a lever to start the clock, a laser stops the
clock and if you go out of bounds you either end up dead or in the hospital. 
Short of that, all scoring in sport is based to some extent on the subjective
evaluation of an official.

  George

ever one of these proves exactly what I said.

The role of the ref as vividly, not, illustrated is to determine if'n the
score has occured. In all of these examples, there is no subjectivity of
the value of the score.

Read these examples slowly and carefully, George and you'll see that
you're proving my assertion. If'n things were like you said, the power
forward might be awarded 1.9 points if'n basketball was like diving; the
runner could be given a score of 1.3, if'n baseball was like gymnastics;
the receiver could likely get only 4 points for the TD if'n football was
like synchronized swimming.

But alas, none is the case. The refs simply says if'n a score was made
and in no way does he determine the value of the score.

You shoulda brought up the 3 point shot cause it's the closest to trying
to make something of your case. But notice how I'm phrasing it: the ref
declares whether or not the shot was behind the arc and if'n it is it's
worth 3 points and if'n it aint, it's worth 2 points.

In basketball, baseball, football and a great many other sports, the ref
has no say in the value of the scoring.

TTom

  I disagree. Over the course of a game an official makes many determinations
as to whether something will score or not and the final score is the sum of
those subjective decisions. In a judged event an official makes many individual
determinations of various aspects of the athletes performance and adds them
up to arrive at a score.

  It's the same thing. The difference is that in one case the score adds up
slower and the audience sees the interim results, in the other the score comes
all at once.

  George

>  It's the same thing. 

It is most certainly not the same thing.

Let's look at this another way. George, please provide some examples when
a TD was worth something other than 6 points and I aint talking FFL,
here.

RE         <<< Note 276.37 by HBAHBA::HAAS "more madness, less horror" >>>

>Let's look at this another way. George, please provide some examples when
>a TD was worth something other than 6 points and I aint talking FFL,
>here.

  I don't see where that has anything to do with the discussion. Fine, there is
a mandatory 6 points ** IF ** in the subjective evaluation of the official a
touchdown was scored. That's just like a mandatory 0.5 deduction for falling
off the high bar. 

  Still, the score given is based on counting things up which are basically the
subjective evaluation of an official. 

  George

Like I said, in baseball, basketball, football, and others, the ref
decides if'n a score has occured not the value of the scoring.

That is distinctly diff'rent that gymnastics, diving and others of that
ilk in which the value of the scoring is subjective.

I'd like to thank you for all your examples. They're at least as good as
I could come up with.

TTom

RE         <<< Note 276.39 by HBAHBA::HAAS "more madness, less horror" >>>

>Like I said, in baseball, basketball, football, and others, the ref
>decides if'n a score has occurred not the value of the scoring.

  Same thing in judged events. In judged events the officials look for specific
things and either add points or subtract points depending on what they see
the athlete do. 

  In the end they total those points and that gives them their final score,
just as in a basketball game the officials total the valid baskets weighted
by distance from the basket and give their final score.

  George

>  Same thing in judged events. 

No it's not and your repeating it don't change nothing.

In what you called judged events, the judge determines the value of the
scoring. In basketball, baseball, hockey, etc., this is not the case.

Wake me up when you wanna try to refute it...

  I don't agree but we don't seem to be making any progress so let's move
on to something else.

  George

I'll try one more pass and then I'll drop it, also:

We've already established that a TD is *ALWAYS* worth 6 points.

How many points is a 2� sommersault in the pike position from the 3 meter
springboard?

Right, you caint say.

TTom

  You are comparing apples to oranges.

  It would be more appropriate to compare how many points one got for one
somersault to how many points a team scored in the 1st 3 minutes of the
2nd half.

  In both cases the points scored would be the result of a series of actions
for which judges gave points based on a series of subjective evaluations.

  George

   
                       Hairdressers try to make the cut
                            in world championships
                                       
     August 11, 1996
     Web posted at: 5:30 p.m. EDT
     
     WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Think of it as the Olympics of hairdressing.
     Stylists from more than 30 countries are gathering this week for a
     chance to compete in the 1996 World Championship of Hairdressing.
     
     In the world of hair, this is serious business. Men's, women's and
     students' teams will chop and crop their way through the
     competition comprised of three different styling tests.
     
     Organizers are calling it "the competition of the decade for the
     cosmetology industry."
     
     "We are working well together and are supportive of one another. I
     believe we have a good chance to win the gold," said Andrea
     Turrisi, trainer for the U.S. Gents Team.
     
     Hairworld '96 runs through Tuesday.

>    TTom, you have to stop going after that bait.

It'd be a dull day at the office if'n I did that...

RE          <<< Note 140.490 by OLD1S::CADZILLA2 "Are you a Turtle?" >>>

>    I restate my previous note. Figure skating is not a sport, so
>    therefore it cannot even be a trash sport. No Hang and Bang or wits
>    required. How can Ice Dancing be considered a sport. 

  From the American Heritage Dictionary:

  SPORT n. 1. An active pastime or diversion. 2. A specific diversion, as
  athletics or hunting. 4. Light mockery. 4. One known for the manner of his
  acceptance of rules or a difficult situation. 5. One who lives a gay,
  extravagant life 6. Amorous dalliance; lovemaking. v. 1 To play; frolic.
  2. To joke or trifle. 3 To display or show off adj. Of, relating to, or
  appropriate for sports [from Middle English "sporten", to amuse, divert]

  Ok, show me a definition that includes basketball, baseball, or football
and does not include figure skating?

  George

>and does not include figure skating?

Or hair cutting. Or book reading. Or temper tantrums.

Any thing is obviously ever thing and there are no distinctions any more
that any one can make about anything.

TTom

    It would appear that ice dancing is the winner, satisfying at least
    four of the six definitions for "sport":
    
    3. Light mockery. 
    4. One known for the manner of his acceptance of rules or a difficult 
       situation. 
    5. One who lives a gay, extravagant life. 
    6. Amorous dalliance; lovemaking.
    

  Actually I think this notes file nails them all. No contest.

  George

Prehaps you can give a pointer to:

4. One known for the manner of his acceptance of rules or a difficult
situation. 

TTom

RE         <<< Note 276.52 by HBAHBA::HAAS "more madness, less horror" >>>

>Prehaps you can give a pointer to:
>
>4. One known for the manner of his acceptance of rules or a difficult
>situation. 

  As when one says, "Oh come now, be a sport".

  George

    
>  Actually I think this notes file nails them all. No contest.
    
    We may have dallianced in the past, George, but I cain't say that it's 
    been amorous... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

        <<< Note 140.495 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need to talk figure skating." >>>

>       About as many as I know that can execute the snap suplex from
>       the top rope. That doesn't make pro wrasslers 'athletes' either.
>       It just makes 'em athletic actors.

  Except that there is a difference. In pro wrassling there is no contest. The
performers decide before hand who will win. In figure skating the outcome is
not known in advance and anyone with any powers of observation at all can
see that skaters who can't perform the triples in a given event get lower
scores.

  George

I said to myself when I walked back in the office this morning "Well, back in
hell...."

Now I KNOW that to be true.....

    Well, I have to admit it.  Last night while getting ready for bed I was 
watching Prime Time Live.  And there was a story about that figure skater 
whose husband died, leaving her a widow and a single mother with a three year 
old girl.  The guy who was interviewing her (the same guy who hitch hiked 
across America) looked like a love sick puppy.  His final question was 
something along the lines of "Will you ever fall in love again?"  I really 
thought he was hoping that he had a chance with her.  Interesting story, but 
that guy is pathetic.

    Kevin

  Charlie ... Charles ... Kaf ... Kabel ... Kabol ...

    ...

    Charles Kafault? ... Karault?

  George

    Jay somebody.

    Kevin

Kuralt is with CBS and retired.  

Must be a slow night when Prime Time Live has to resort to a figure skating
story....

    
      Charles Karault has much higher standards than to do the kind
     of interview that schmoe did last night. I watched the segment on
     the unjustly (IMO) convicted rapist down in Oklahoma but about two
     minutes into the interview with Katerina (or whatever her name is)
     I felt myself getting nauseous and opted for a Dick Francis novel
     rather than sit through the sickly sweet sap that passed for an inter-
     view.

  Yeh, real men hold out for interviews with real athletes from real sports.

  Fear not, it won't be long before someone interviews Dennis Rodman who by
then will be sporting a ballerina outfit for an off season performance in
Swan Lake.

  So much for those prancing figure skaters, Dennis'l take'em to the hoop.

  George

>
>  Yeh, real men hold out for interviews with real athletes from real sports.
>

No, I just don't watch figure skating crap.

>  Fear not, it won't be long before someone interviews Dennis Rodman who by
>then will be sporting a ballerina outfit for an off season performance in
>Swan Lake.

I don't watch Rodman either.


>  So much for those prancing figure skaters, Dennis'l take'em to the hoop.

From some things I've heard, that's not such a far-fetched idea.....

    Now Tommy do you deny that Francis doesn't get sappy now and then?
    Allright I admit I read and finish him and for the study of the craft
    he's great.  But gawd what a hard lot his hero's had to go through
    prior to their current predicament.
    
    And the Parker series got to be too much but my wife pointed out that
    the spinoff with his black sparring partner/sometimes assistant should
    have lasted much longer on tv.  
    
    And speaking of building 19 - I see they've got the Kinky Freidman
    omnibus for a couple bucks - that's Imus' Kinky - now there's a fun
    read.

    so what was her answer on falling in love again?  I take it she said no
    because of the other guy.
    
    Some say you only find "true" love once in a lifetime.

    >> Now Tommy do you deny that Francis doesn't get sappy 
    >> now and then?
    
       It's his biggest drawback. His heroes are too pure of heart
       and too chilvarous. He sometimes gives them demons but there's
       never any doubt that they'll wrestle those demons down. But
       Francis does make for good light and quick reading. Tony Hiller-
       man is a better mystery writer though.

You guys gotta check out James Lee Burke.....

     
                  Tonya returns to flowers, batons, and boos
                                       
     RENO, Nevada (AP) -- Tonya Harding had just finished her first
     public routine since the 1994 Olympics and was lying flat in the
     center of the rink when a few customary flower bouquets were tossed
     her way.
     
     Then two collapsible batons came flying out of the stands onto the
     ice.
     
     If Harding had any doubts she was still in the genteel world of
     amateur figure skating, the beer-drinking, hockey-loving crowd that
     filled the Reno Convention Center quickly let her know otherwise.
     
     This wasn't exactly Lillehammer. It wasn't even Nashville, where
     skating's best got together earlier this month for the national
     championships that Harding has won twice.
     
     It was a Reno Renegades minor league hockey game, and Tonya was the
     pre-game entertainment.
     
     "Anyone throwing objects on the ice will be ejected," the announcer
     warned the crowd as Harding completed her warmups.
     
     A few minutes later, skating's bad girl appeared to a mixed
     reception of cheers and boos for a 2-minute routine that included
     only two jumps. The reception was just as mixed at the end, but
     Harding threw kisses to the crowd nonetheless, as if she had just
     won a gold medal.
     
     "I think it was probably 80 percent positive and 20 percent
     negative," Harding said later. "I think the 20 percent negative
     just wanted to watch the hockey game."
     
     Harding's brief skate to upbeat music came before a standing-room
     only crowd of 4,344, the first sellout of the season for the
     Renegades.
     
     She had barely finished and was backstage trying to catch her
     breath when the biggest cheers of the night came as a pre-game
     fight broke out between players for the Renegades and Alaska Gold
     Kings.
     
     "Is that all she's doing?" one hockey fan said after the brief
     skate.
     
     It was the first public performance for Harding since she was in
     tears after breaking her laces in the Olympics.
     
     She came onto the ice dressed in all black, with bare midriff
     exposed, and skated a program that included only two jumps, neither
     of them triple axels.
     
     "I don't think it was a conservative program," Harding said. "It
     was a show program, to show them I was having fun."
     
     Harding's appearance was arranged through a Reno casino, which paid
     her an undisclosed sum to skate and then mingle later with some
     high rollers at a cocktail party.
     
     It was also somewhat of a coming-out party for Harding, who is on
     probation through April 11 for her role in the baton attack on her
     rival, Nancy Kerrigan.
     
     Her agent, David Hans Schmidt, said Harding still might apply for
     reinstatement to the U.S. Figure Skating Association. Schmidt
     alternated between threatening to sue the association and holding
     out an olive branch, which he had plucked from his backyard.
     
     "She's paid her debt to society," Schmidt said. "If she wants to
     start her comeback here, that's what we're here today to do."
     
     Though Harding was booed by many as she took the ice, some cheered
     her wildly.
     
     Among them was Bill Thomas, who drove 60 miles (95 kilometers) from
     his Gardnerville, Nevada, home to watch Harding with his wife and
     six of their friends.
     
     Thomas, a bearded, burly man in a hunting cap, was grilling some
     chicken in the parking lot, where the group had been drinking beer
     and eating since about three hours before the show.
     
     "She's the underdog and she has a lot of guts being out here,"
     Thomas said. "The press has been hard on her all around. I really
     admire her courage."