Conference hbahba::cam_sports

    I know there was discussion about why the Celts and Red Sox were
    perceived as the most racist organizations is pro sports.  Some
    said it was from ESPN and they're based in NY.  In the SI article
    about them, it sounded like they considered themselves more NE than
    NY.  Did anyone else get that impression.
    
    What's the current story on Marcus Webb?  Stuff like this doesn't help
    the perception, even though it's not the Celtic's fault.
    

    I saw Bill Russell recently on a talk show and he said Red would put
    five blacks on the floor if he thought they would win a title.
    
    Mike

The story's not out on Marcus Webb yet.  The police deny stopping him and
ripping up his temporary license.  Alabama denies recently sending him his new
permanent license.  Sounds like some truths need to be sorted out before there
should be speculation.

j.

    Copied w/out permission from the Boston Globe... 1/13
    
       As the Celtics struggled to prepare a statement on allegations made
    by rookie forward Marcus Webb, it was learned yesterday that Webb
    missed not just a doctor's appointment but also a morning practice
    session the day he told the team he was accosted by local police.  In
    addition, police in Brookline and Newton said the Celtics should
    publicly release whatever information they have about the incident.
    
       Asked before last night's game against the Cavaliers whether Webb
    had been fined for missing practice, coach Chris Ford said,
    "Everything's being looked at and evaluated."
    
       Although Webb is injured, he is required to attend all practices,
    primarily to maintain his conditioning.  He broke his thumb during
    warmups before a game at Sacramento late last month.
    
       Brookline police also said the Celtics should apologize to them, if
    necessary.
    
       "If the Celtics have information contradicting Webb's accounting of
    the incident, they should certainly release it to the press," Brookline
    Police Capt. John Hiscock said last night.  "After all, there have been
    public accusations made against the police."
    
       Webb told team officials that he missed an appointment to have his
    thumb examined after local police pulled him over between 8:15 and 8:30
    a.m. Friday, detaining him for as long as an hour and ripping up his
    interim Alabama driver's license.
    
       Celtics officials acknowleged yesterday that Webb also missed a
    mandatory practice session that lasted until after noon, meaning that
    the player apparently was unaccounted for all of Friday morning.
    
       Jan Volk, the Celtics' executive vice president, said the team had
    "made a lot of phone calls" yesterday after Alabama records showed that
    Webb's driver's license had been revoked and that he had not applied
    for a new one, contradicting a central element of the player's story.
    
       Volk declined to say whether the Celtics had found an explanation
    for the discrepance, but said the team would make a statement soon. 
    He also said it had not been determined whether Webb's status with the
    team could be affected if it is found that he fabricated all or part of
    the story.
    
       "We're doing everything we can at this point to find out exactly
    what happened," Volk said.  "When we gather all the information that
    will allow us to make some kind of statement, we will do that."
    
       Webb, who also travels with the team, has repeatedly refused to
    discuss the alleged incident with reporters.  Asked about it yesterday,
    he said, "I consider it taken care of."
    
       The Celtics appear to be in a difficult position.  No evidence has
    been obtained to support Webb's story, yet the team is baffled as to
    why he would say what he said if it was not true.  Meanwhile, publicity
    about Webb's account has reflected negatively on local police,
    increasing pressure on the Celtics to offer a clarification.
    
       If it turns out that Webb made up the story about being stopped by
    police, then "there should be an apology issued by the Celtics to the
    Brookline police," Hiscock said.
    
       Newton Police Chief Frank Gorgone said Volk assured him yesterday
    that the Celtics would conduct "a thorough investigation."
    
       Gorgone said he was confident that Volk would get back to him when
    the Celtics had new information.
    
       The Celtics could be put in the position of having to choose between
    the police and their own player.  Either would be sensitive but
    especially Webb, considering the apparent falsity of statements he gave
    the team about the status of his license.
    
       Webb told the team that he received his permanent Alabama license
    shortly after the incident occurred.  However, team officials have not
    actually seen the license.  Volk declined to say whether Webb has been
    able to produce evidence that he was holding some kind of valid
    driver's license at the time of the incident.

    Obviously, before making any type of judgement on this Webb issue, it
    would be wise to wait for all the information to be put on the table.
    
    					Steve

    
    Ironically, Webb was one of the athletes who commented on the Boston
    situation in the ESPN special (before the alleged incident).  Something
    didn't seem right about his initial statements that the story wasn't 
    supposed to get to the media.  Why not?  Once again, if it actually 
    did happen, it's reprehensible police behavior that should be 
    highlighted.
    
    glenn
    

    The reason I brought it up was...
    
    >What's the current story on Marcus Webb?  Stuff like this doesn't help
    >the perception, even though it's not the Celtic's fault.
    
    

    

>	Some said it was from ESPN and they're based in NY. In the SI
>	article about them, it sounded like they considered themselves
>	more NE than NY. Did anyone else get that impression.

	I assume that you are asking whether ESPN considers itself to be
	more NE than NY.

	ESPN is in Bristol, CT, and has been since it started. From what
	I have seen they do consider themselves more NE than NY. That is
	not taken from any SI article, but rather from things like the
	ESPN anniversary specials that I have seen and just general
	impression.

	Roy

ESPN is definitely a Connecticut enterprise, and as such, I think is more
apt to be a little of both, as most sporting news has to be in CT.
(we have both Boston and NY fans here, so sports news can't be too biased
either way).

A couple of the ESPN sportscasters are definitely Connecticut folks,
most notably Chris Berman, and one other guy who used to work for WFSB-TV3,
but who's name escapes me right now.


Hope this helps,
fw

    
    How is whether ESPN considers it itself to be NY or NE relevant to the
    question?  If there's even a hint of racial controversy around a Boston
    sports team the Boston media itself will send out the dogs, whether
    there's a real story or not...
    
    glenn
    

>    How is whether ESPN considers it itself to be NY or NE relevant to the
>    question?  If there's even a hint of racial controversy around a Boston
>    sports team the Boston media itself will send out the dogs, whether
>    there's a real story or not...
    
Personally, I don't know.   I was just trying to clarify the ESPN
position.   I'm not all that familiar with the Webb incident so I didn't
want to comment on that....


'Saw    

    One of the Patrick's (sp) used to be on 3,8,or 30 in Ct.
    
    Jimbo

>    One of the Patrick's (sp) used to be on 3,8,or 30 in Ct.
>    
>    Jimbo


Thanks Jimbo, you gave my memory just enough of a jog.

Bill Patrick.  All I could think of this morning was Dan Patrick, but
I knew he wasn't the one.   He was the #2 sportscaster on WFSB-TV3.
Dave Smith is the #1 guy and has been for a long time....

I enjoyed him quite a bit and was pleased to see him move to ESPN.

(And though it has nothing to do with SPORTS, Bill O'Reilly, the
anchor of Inside Edition, used to be on TV3 too)....


'Saw

�    question?  If there's even a hint of racial controversy around a Boston
�    sports team the Boston media itself will send out the dogs, whether
�    there's a real story or not...
    
�    glenn
 
	...and subsequently Glenn, whenever a story about race emanates 
from New York it is pretty much squashed.  LT's statements about racism 
were attacked (especially by Lupica in ESPN), and when a Ranger (I forget 
his name) called Townsend a racial epithet, substantiated by a number of 
Bruins, it was the Ranger player played up as the "victim".

				/Don

This might be changing the subject slightly, but I was wondering if
any further word had come out about the NFL official who allegedly called
a NY Jet by a derogatory term?


'Saw

?Don -

Ahem.  But it seems to me when I was in N.Y. over the holidays, that
stories of 'racism' were far from 'squashed' in the local papers, as
the tabloids seemed to compete with each other for the most 'attractive'
headline talking about the latest suspected racial incident.   

Now, I know that a lot of what LT has said has been ignored, and most
of that because a lot of it was said during his druggie days.   

It seems to me that stories about racism, and any story about any
athlete are hardly 'squashed' in N.Y., unless the ?Don Dictionary 
defines 'squashed' as "Blown out of proportion"

Jd

Can't believe this - but I got to agree with JD on this one. The headlines
on the back page of the NYtabloids were all about the incident with the Jets 
player.

The Crazy Met

    	The stories never make it to the national level like they do
    when they involve Boston.  I am also talking just about sports.
    Most of the New York sportswriters like to think New York is better
    than Boston in regards to race relations just like people on the
    left coast liked to think until Los Angeles burned.  And I'll stick
    to my guns with regards to the two instances I brought up.  LT was
    vilified in most of the New York tabloids and a year after the Townsend
    incident I read a syndicated story about the Ranger player making
    him look like a victim.
    
    				/Don

Po' Po' Boston.  Po' Po' /Don.

JD

    The Jet was Erik McMillan.
    
    I brought up the ESPN issue, because someone thought the show they did
    had a NY bias towards Boston towards it.
    

    Some folks tried to associate Barkley's incident on Monday with the 
    MLK holiday by saying it was a poor showing on Charles' behalf.  
    Such accusations are downright racist, immature and irresponsible. 
    
    Peter Vecsey's column yesterday is the worst piece of trash journalism 
    I've ever seen.  He should be flogged for what he wrote.  It's no secret 
    that they hate each other, but Vecsey showed no class at all by pouncing 
    on Charles at the first negative chance that came down the road.  Where 
    was he the last 1� months when the Suns quietly built the league's best 
    record?
    
    Mike

Mike there was a column in the NY Times by George Vescey (not Pete) that
also blasted Barkley's behavior at the end of the game. George Vescey
wrote some fairly nice things about Sir Charles during the Olympics.
So Peter Vescey is by no means the only one who found Barkleys behavior
after the game outrageous.

The Crazy Met

    And since when should we condone a player for climbing over a table to
    get to an official?

Mike -

Why do you say that associating Charles boorish behavior and MLK
day is 'racist'?

And what he did was wrong, and he should be taken to task.  I
realize that now that he's a Sun, you're a big fan, but if say,
Isiah Thomas did that, he'd be destroyed in the media, in here,
etc..

Why is it okay for Charles to do this?  Because he's cute?  He's
outspoken?  Bunk.   I like Charles an aweful lot, but he should
be fined and IMO suspended for this.

JD

    
    plus, as a former freekin lunatic would say,
    
    " and he should have his pee pee whacked!"
    
    
    
    I remain,
    Kev_for_Hawk
    

    Vecsey insulted MLK and Charles by saying MLK wouldn't have appreciated
    the way Charles celebrated his holiday.
    
    Charles was taunted to climb the table.  He's already apologized for it
    and regrets doing it, but Crawford should be fined too for taunting
    Barkley.  Crawford is the one that said, "This is gonna cost you money"
    just before Barkley climbed the table.
    
    Mike

    
    
    Mike I really can't believe you and the way you protect Barkley.  He
    has shown himself to be a jerk before (hey how about spitting on that
    little girl?  Now there was a class act!).  Now, Sir Charles is at
    it again, and again, he is handled with kid gloves!
    
    Simply, when things are going well meaning when Charles is getting 15
    boards a game, 25 shots a game, he is happy.  I heard that from court
    side, he was upset that he was getting the ball down the stretch and
    that Chambers had jacked up a few shots.  Then he thinks he gets
    fouled, hey I'm the star, and when he doesn't get the call, he goes
    off on the ref.
    
    Througout his career, Barkley has demonstrated that he is a loose
    cannon at best.  He has a big mouth to go along with a jerky attitude.
    But time and time again, he is forgiven for these antics and to many
    folks simply brush it aside and say that poor charles is being
    mis-quoted, and that's not the real Charles.
    
    Folks I tell ya, this is why the NBA is just like the WWF.  Just watch
    the WWF and ask yourself, how much power and influence do the refs
    have?  Then look at the NBA.  Case closed.  The stars run the league
    and what results is guys like Barkley getting upset that he didn't
    get a call and then has a right to go after an official because he had
    the nerve to say something in rebutal!
    
    This is where the league needs to step in an not only fine Barkley, but
    put him on ice for a couple of games.  Send the message that you can't
    mess with the ref's and that behavior just won't cut it.  Gee, I wonder
    how many kids in Phoenix were watching when Charles went after the
    ref and then how many might think that this is acceptable behavior
    and emulate him.
    
    
    bill..g.
    

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+TM                                                   ----------- 
|d|i|g|i|t|a|l|                     U.S. News                         LIVE WIRE
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+                                                     ----------- 

         Bob Palmer addresses Martin Luther King Day observance in Mill 

  Digital President and CEO Bob Palmer told a Martin Luther King Day gathering
  at the Mill in Maynard, Mass. that "I am committed to diversity," and 
  pledged to keep valuing diversity at the core of Digital's values.

  Bob was keynote speaker at the event, which was sponsored by the People of 
  Color Board of Directors.  

  He spoke frankly of his belief in the power of a diverse workforce and of 
  his expectations for Digital's managers.  

  The business argument for valuing diversity is a strong one, Bob said.  
  Digital's success depends on customer satisfaction, which in turn depends on
  achieving "excellence in everything we do."  The source of that excellence is 
  the creativity and innovation that comes from Digital's work force -- 
  "attributes that know no geographical boundaries.  Nor are they based on 
  race, age, physical disability, gender, national origin, ethnicity, religion
  or sexual orientation."

  Noting that Digital's customers are increasingly diverse, Bob said, "Our 
  ability to delight the customer is significantly enhanced by a workforce 
  that reflects the diversity of those customers. ... Diversity is, in short, 
  an increasingly critical fact of life."

  Bob said that Digital will focus its efforts "on building sustainable 
  systems that encourage, develop and reward excellence, talent and commitment
  in all of our people.  Those systems will ensure that people of difference 
  with talent and commitment are fully represented in all of our core 
  businesses.  

  "We will also work to create and sustain a work environment that not only 
  brings people of difference into the company but encourages and supports 
  them in bringing their individual and cultural differences to the table as 
  well."  

  Bob said he would require managers to spend time thinking about and 
  understanding what diversity means; to establish measurable goals, 
  objectives and plans to ensure diversity; to establish a high-quality 
  development process to help achieve those objectives; to develop adequate 
  systems to measure progress; to establish ongoing dialogue with people of 
  diverse backgrounds within their organizations; to consider the impact of 
  business decisions for people of diversity; and to work and communicate the 
  results worldwide.

  He also encouraged employees to help build an environment that "enables all 
  of us to understand and value differences."  And he applauded the important 
  work done by the People of Color Board of Directors and other groups.

  "I am committed to diversity because I believe that people of difference 
  provide a rich resource for knowledge and excellence.  We need that 
  knowledge and excellence to survive and prosper in the long run.  Digital's 
  future is tied to our ability to understand, respect, value and manage 
  these differences in a way that makes them engines for ideas, innovation 
  and creativity."

  Bob stressed that recent business decisions "do not represent a retreat from
  our commitments to diversity.  A change in strategy is not abandonment of 
  our values and beliefs."  At the same time, he cautioned, "The only 
  sustainable way to support diversity is within the context of our rapidly 
  changing business models.  Working within that context, we will identify and
  implement strategies to support diversity."

    re: .31
    
    While Barkley is can be pretty much a jerk, he wouldn't have gone
    ballistic if it wasn't for the chuckleheaded ref getting snapping back
    at him. Last I heard, the NBA officials were under orders not to do
    those kinds of things. Also, Barkley *was* fouled on the play (the ESPN
    replay they showed tonight was pretty conclusive that he was hit on the
    arm.) If the ref keeps his mouth shut, Barkley would have ranted about
    it for a while and it would have blown over. Enough blame for everyone,
    but from the news I've seen, Charles is getting it all. I would like to
    see the official get reprimanded as well.
    
    Dennis Faust
    (who is preparing for more mane calling and such, even from an alleged
    moderator)
    

    
    Dennis,
    
    
    
    What's a "mane"?
    
    How do Moderators use them?    ;^)
    
    I remain,
    flipping a spell-check gotcha to somebody else!
    Kev
    

    
    > Vecsey insulted MLK and Charles by saying MLK wouldn't have appreciated
    > the way Charles celebrated his holiday.
    
    The guy expresses that opinion and you call it "racist"?  Geez, Mike,
    I'd hate to be held to that standard...
    
    glenn
    

>    Also, Barkley *was* fouled on the play (the ESPN
>    replay they showed tonight was pretty conclusive that he was hit on the
>    arm.)

I didn't see it as that conclusive, and the ref has to see things in
"realtime".

Someone else hit the nail on the head:  Barkley was pissed he wasn't
getting the ball, and this, along with his belief that he was fouled,
got the better of him.

I heard the last few minutes on radio, and the announcers were talking
about how Phoenix is the best 3-pt shooting team in the league...4 of the
5 players on the floor were in the high 30's and low 40's in 3-pt %, and
that Barkley was the worst of the bunch (20-something %).  So who launches
the "3" ?  The mouth.

Peter Vecsey is a dick.  I don't know how a man who's writing style is
completely based on sarcasm got to the position he's in now.  Don't take
ANYTHING he writes seriously.

FWIW, I think Barkley is a great player, and great for the NBA (I enjoy
watching him and respect his talent and desire).  BUT, he deserves all
of the crap he gets.

    Joe, tell us how you really feel...
    
    REK
    
    :-}

    If anythang, Barkley has a legitimate beef because he's providing media
    fodder and quality entertainment to millions, .... and it costs *him*
    money!  Haw!1
    
    SportsCenter said last night they oughta just give SirCharles a credit
    card and everytime he's committed another "fine-able" offense he could
    just whip out his plastic.  Thousands of haw haw's!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    re Barkley's 3pt %:
    
    That numbers not quite fair, Joe.  Barkley started out the saeason
    missing something like 11 treys in a row.  He's been doing fairly well
    since then.
    
    brews
    
    

    Charles obviously wasn't hacked since his 35' 3pt attempt traveled all 
    of 10'.
    
    Mike

    > Charles obviously wasn't hacked since his 35' 3pt attempt traveled
    > all of 10'.
    
    Hey, I've had 15' attempts go *negative* distances and not be hacked. 
    (Not by anybody in *this* conference though!  Heh!)
    
    
    - ACC Chris

>    Hey, I've had 15' attempts go *negative* distances and not be hacked. 
>    (Not by anybody in *this* conference though!  Heh!)

    Just FWIW, the ref Barkley went after wasn't Joey Crawford, but Ken
    Clark.  Crawford didn't work that game.
    
    NAZZ

>    Mike I really can't believe you and the way you protect Barkley.  He
>    has shown himself to be a jerk before (hey how about spitting on that
>    little girl?  Now there was a class act!).  Now, Sir Charles is at
>    it again, and again, he is handled with kid gloves!
    
    I've always been a fan of his.  When I look at Charles, I don't see the
    obnoxious, loud-mouthed, racist that others see.  I see:
    
    - a fiercely intense competitor that isn't afraid to speak his mind 
      (rare today).
    - someone that privately visits ill children in hospitals to avoid
      publicity.  Anyone can call the newspaper and tell them to meet him
      at the children's hospital for cheap publicity.
    - a sports celebrity that never refuses autographs to children, even in 
      airports and at the open practices the Suns have.  Nor does he charge for
      them!
    - an athlete that has an insatiable desire to win along with the skills to 
      back it up.
    
    Anyone with a competitive spirit has confronted officials on any level. 
    Heck, I did it as far back as Little League.  If they ripped me off, I let 
    them know about.
    
>    boards a game, 25 shots a game, he is happy.  I heard that from court
>    side, he was upset that he was getting the ball down the stretch and
>    that Chambers had jacked up a few shots.  Then he thinks he gets
>    fouled, hey I'm the star, and when he doesn't get the call, he goes
>    off on the ref.
    
    Simple hearsay on the courtside chatter.  Chambers only missed one shot
    down the stretch so he had the hot hand.  Charles not only shoots over
    30% from 3pt land, he was hacked.  I've seen the replays.
    
>    Througout his career, Barkley has demonstrated that he is a loose
>    cannon at best.  He has a big mouth to go along with a jerky attitude.
    
    It's easy to see that from a distance.  If you catch enough informal
    interviews and watch his actions in public settings, you realize that
    is far from the truth.
    
>    have?  Then look at the NBA.  Case closed.  The stars run the league
>    and what results is guys like Barkley getting upset that he didn't
>    get a call and then has a right to go after an official because he had
>    the nerve to say something in rebutal!
    
    Jordan bumps an official in Salt Lake and gets iced for 1 game. 
    Charles confronts an official for an explanation, sees the NYC media
    blow it out of proportion, and gets iced for 1 game plus a $10K fine.
    To me, the fine was appropriate and the suspension was not.  The NBA
    front office now has cost Phoenix 2 games so far this year.
    
>    This is where the league needs to step in an not only fine Barkley, but
>    put him on ice for a couple of games.  
    
    Done.
    
    >Send the message that you can't mess with the ref's and that behavior 
    >just won't cut it.  
    
    The NBA Players Association needs to implement a protest procedure to
    grant them rights when it comes to horrendous treatment from officials.
    The players are treated as non-thinking, bleating sheep in this respect.
    It's no secret that NBA officials hold grudges and publicly announce it
    with a sense of pride (ask Jake The Snake).  They are not above the game, 
    they are there to insure that the game is played fairly.  People pay good 
    money to see a well played game.  Not to see sloppiness, missed calls, 
    poor calls, letting games get out of hand, biased officiating, etc.
    
    Take the crew from the Spurs game, for example.  They were fined and
    will obviously hold that against the teams the next time they work
    either one of those teams.  Don't think so?  You obviously think
    officials are above basic human nature.  It's also interesting to note
    the dictatorship that the NBA has over access to officials.  Nobody can
    inquire about the officials' fines or punishment or protesting of their
    actions without getting the Philadelphia lawyer treatment.
    
    >Gee, I wonder how many kids in Phoenix were watching when Charles went 
    >after the ref and then how many might think that this is acceptable 
    >behavior and emulate him.
    
    None.  The game wasn't televised here.  Every non-Phoenix fan that I spoke
    to that saw the foul and what Charles did said the suspension wasn't
    justified.
    
    In my opinion, Charles had to do what he did to say, "Enough is enough. 
    We've tolerated this poor officiating long enough now and the buck
    stops here."  Congratulations to him for having the backbone to take the
    stand.
    
    Mike

     re .44
    
      There's something to be said for such blind loyalty. Without
     it some of the greatest tragedies in the history of man would
     not have been possible.

�    Anyone with a competitive spirit has confronted officials on any level. 
�    Heck, I did it as far back as Little League.  If they ripped me off, I let 
�    them know about.
    
    Did you chase them to their cars in the parking lot?  Just because it's
    done, doesn't mean it's right.  That's what really scares me about this
    whole thing.  Little Leagues see the Big Leaugers mouthing off to
    officials on TV and carry it with them to their own games.  Parents in
    the stands start going off the deep end.
    
�    Jordan bumps an official in Salt Lake and gets iced for 1 game. 
�    Charles confronts an official for an explanation, sees the NYC media
�    blow it out of proportion, and gets iced for 1 game plus a $10K fine.
    
    Take the blinders off, Mike.  Charles has a history of run ins with
    officials.  He probably leads the league in technical fouls for his
    career.  How many times has Jordon drawn the T?  This wasn't an
    isolated incident and as Charles himself says, you can't control people
    with money.  Maybe know that Charles cost his team a game with his
    antics his teammates will put a little pressure on him to clean up his
    act.

    re:.44
    
    Essence of bovine excretement at its finest!
    
    If you were one of those "wise mouth" kids in little league who would
    spout off at umpires and get away with it, I can see why you think this
    is okay.
    
    Bill

    
    
    re: Mike
    
    	Don't excuse Barkley's oncourt behaviour by telling us what a
    saint he is off the court.  I don't doubt that he does all the things
    you say, but it doesn't excuse his actions on the court.  There have
    been plenty of fierce competitors through all sports that have never
    acted like him.  He doesn't need to do those things, but somehow I
    think he enjoys it.
    
>    30% from 3pt land, he was hacked.  I've seen the replays.
    
    	Great, now that you seen the replay twenty times and most in
    slow motion, then guess how many times the ref got the chance with
    only a fraction left.  The point is moot.  Anyone can take a replay
    and look at it for hours and pick out the error, but the official
    only has a split second to see the entire play and make a mental
    judgment on advantage/disadvantage.
    
>    It's easy to see that from a distance.  If you catch enough informal
>    interviews and watch his actions in public settings, you realize that
>    is far from the truth.
    
    	No it isn't.  I've seen him in plenty of interviews and he is still
    a jerk when he puts on a uniform.  Hey, I see it all the time.  Some
    guys when they put on a uniform turn into jerks.  When the uniform 
    comes off, they are fine.  But it still doesn't excuse his oncourt
    behavior.
    
>    Jordan bumps an official in Salt Lake and gets iced for 1 game. 
    Charles confronts an official for an explanation, sees the NYC media
    blow it out of proportion, and gets iced for 1 game plus a $10K fine.
    To me, the fine was appropriate and the suspension was not.  The NBA
>    front office now has cost Phoenix 2 games so far this year.
    
    	No, from all accounts, Barkley said and did far more than just
    jump over a table and confront the ref from some accounts I have read.
    And it is strictly your opinion on the fact that the league office
    has cost phoenix 2 games.  In the second, you are making a huge 
    asumption that a 30% shooter would have made that shot.  He didn't.
    Maybe he was fouled, so what?  That's the NBA.  That's what people 
    come to see.  Not basketball, but entertainment.  I've always said
    that if you want to see the real basketball, then watch the college
    game.
    
>    The NBA Players Association needs to implement a protest procedure to
    grant them rights when it comes to horrendous treatment from officials.
    The players are treated as non-thinking, bleating sheep in this respect.
    It's no secret that NBA officials hold grudges and publicly announce it
    with a sense of pride (ask Jake The Snake).  They are not above the game, 
    they are there to insure that the game is played fairly.  People pay good 
    money to see a well played game.  Not to see sloppiness, missed calls, 
>    poor calls, letting games get out of hand, biased officiating, etc.
    
    	Pray tell, how do you deal with judgment?  A ref believes contact
    on a play doesn't put one player at a disadvantage, but yet the player
    does.  Who is right?  Should that player have a recourse?
    
    	I also don't think the players are treated poorly in this respect.
    If anything the league is to soft on some of these guys.  I'd like to
    see suspensions of a week or more for junk like this.  But instead,
    it is the players who not only control that, but they also control the
    way the game is played.  The refs in the pro game are only token.  They
    only call a few fouls here and there just to keep it basically under
    control.  Afterall, nobody would pay 50 bucks to see Barkley or Jordan
    on the bench in the first half with 3-4 fouls, would they?  So, because
    the stars run the league, they are a product of themselves for they
    do recieve special treatment.  And they shouldn't complain when things
    don't go their way.  Afterall, they are the cause of it in the first
    place.
    
>    In my opinion, Charles had to do what he did to say, "Enough is enough. 
    We've tolerated this poor officiating long enough now and the buck
    stops here."  Congratulations to him for having the backbone to take the
>    stand.
    
    That's fine.  I wish the NBA would clean up its act and get back to 
    playing basketball.  But then again, I wonder if Charles would really
    want to watch the games from the bench in foul trouble every night?
    
    Lastly, I can't condone poor officiating or officials that hold gruges.
    It is the pits!  I see it and frankly, I hate it.  But as with anything
    in life, there are good and bad.  The NBA needs to weed out the bad
    but the problem they have is that the average NBA official only makes
    around 40-45K compared to the 1 mil per player.  Compare that with a
    top Div. I college official who can earn 30-35K in the college season
    and return to another job.  In the NBA, the officials cannot work 
    elsewhere or hold another job.  Basically, for the work they have to
    do and with what they have to put up with, they are really underpayed!
    
    Of course, I'd jump at the chance to work in the NBA, but many top
    flight college guys just won't jump due to pay issues and issues are
    all the junk they have to deal with.
    
    bill..g.
    

    Goose, I think the other "loss" Mike was referring to was the too many
    men on the court rulnig.

>    Did you chase them to their cars in the parking lot?  Just because it's
>    done, doesn't mean it's right.  That's what really scares me about this
    
    Sorry to give the impression I did this often.  There was a time I
    confronted an umpire after a game though.  There's no excuse for
    incompetence anywhere on the playing field.  Don't forget, this is a
    profession for these guys, not a recreation.  Here at DEC we at least
    have the Open Door policy for unfair treatment.  NBA Players (probably
    other sports too) do not have that luxury.
    
>    acted like him.  He doesn't need to do those things, but somehow I
>    think he enjoys it.
    
    No you could tell by his apology that he regretted it.  I still say he
    was making a statement about the poor officiating.  Ever since Earl
    Strom resigned, the NBA referee talent pool has been on a steady decline.
    The officials were better when they only had 2 man crews!  The 3 man
    crews have been noticeably poorer!  Not only have the players and fans 
    complained, franchise management and all forms of sports media too.  It 
    is a problem that is obvious and the front office is ignoring it.
    
>    	Great, now that you seen the replay twenty times and most in
>    slow motion, then guess how many times the ref got the chance with
>    only a fraction left.  The point is moot.  Anyone can take a replay
    
    Sorry I saw it realtime and it was obvious.  Of course, during the
    game, bodies went flying without a call too so I guess that justifies
    it.  Players from both sides, and NY newspaper writers all said it was
    a poorly officiated game.
    
>    and look at it for hours and pick out the error, but the official
>    only has a split second to see the entire play and make a mental
>    judgment on advantage/disadvantage.
    
    I know you're a ref, but there's no need to defend them.  It's not your
    fault they're generally incompetent.
    
>    has cost phoenix 2 games.  In the second, you are making a huge 
>    asumption that a 30% shooter would have made that shot.  He didn't.
>    Maybe he was fouled, so what?  That's the NBA.  That's what people 
    
    I don't care if he made that shot or not.  The fact remains that NBA
    officiating has degraded to a point that something has to be done.
    
>    does.  Who is right?  Should that player have a recourse?
    
    I think there should be in the case of someone like Jake The Snake, who
    publicly confessed he loathed all the Celtics and their organization. 
    He shouldn't have been allowed to do Boston games.  In isolated
    incidents, the league needs some form of instant replay.  Maybe allow 1
    replay per half.  If you lose the protest, assign a technical.  This is
    how the CFL does it.
    
>    it is the players who not only control that, but they also control the
>    way the game is played.  The refs in the pro game are only token.  They
>    only call a few fouls here and there just to keep it basically under
>    control.  Afterall, nobody would pay 50 bucks to see Barkley or Jordan
>    on the bench in the first half with 3-4 fouls, would they?  So, because
>    the stars run the league, they are a product of themselves for they
>    do recieve special treatment.  And they shouldn't complain when things
>    don't go their way.  Afterall, they are the cause of it in the first
>    place.
    
    Of course, this assumes that they are competent enough to notice the
    infractions.  Like David Stern, they are too caught up in the "spirit
    of the rules" rather than the black-and-white letter of the law.  
    
>    in life, there are good and bad.  The NBA needs to weed out the bad
>    but the problem they have is that the average NBA official only makes
>    around 40-45K compared to the 1 mil per player.  Compare that with a
>    top Div. I college official who can earn 30-35K in the college season
>    and return to another job.  In the NBA, the officials cannot work 
>    elsewhere or hold another job.  Basically, for the work they have to
    >    do and with what they have to put up with, they are really underpayed!
    
    I don't believe that is entirely true.  The college salaries sound
    right, but the NBA salaries do not.  I know Tommy Nunez personally and
    he makes 6 figures.  He said the NBA minimum for referees is $80K.
    
    Mike

>    Goose, I think the other "loss" Mike was referring to was the too many
>    men on the court rulnig.
    
    That and the Barkley suspension.  

    Spirit of the rules works just fine in rugby where 1 ref controls 30
    players...

    Scottie Pippen says, "They don't boo white guys in Chicago Stadium!"  I
    think Mr. Pippen has been running his mouth, without thinking, too much 
    lately.

    Isn't that old news?
    

    Walt, they still use the Pony Express out in Phoenix.  Word travels a
    bit slow.
    
    Mark.

    Pippen has also apologized for the remarks.  He claimed that he was
    having an average day, and the fans were on his back, while Kruco(SP?)
    was having a terrible day, and no one was even booing him.
    
    Pippen later said that his words came from anger, and he did not feel
    the Bull fans were racists...
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

    Hello,
     In reference to racism in sports. There was and still is that problem.
    As far as the Celtics go, they have always been what I call a "family",
    meaning the players are not judged by their skin color, rather by their
    overall performance both on and off the court. I know that there have
    been a few incidents in the past(Bill Russell, and Marcus Webb). I
    personnally feel that Bill Russell(Perhaps one of the greatest players
    of all time) got a raw deal from the fans and people in Boston. I mean,
    the man played his heart out, winning all of those championships, and
    how is he treated? like dirt!!! That is not cool in my book. On the
    flip side, Marcus Webb got what he deserved. He not only disgraced
    himself, but also his race as well. I can say this, because I am a
    black man. His actions have created a "negative perception" by the
    so-called white society, thus making you think that all black athletes
    are like Mr. Webb. WAKE UP PEOPLE!!Not all atheletes(black or white)
    are the same. As far as those Red Sox go, I fell that they have always
    been racist, even to this day. I recently read an article in the Boston
    Globe, and I found out that in 1946, Jackie Robinson had a chance to
    try out with them. Well he did, and was never signed, simply because he
    was black. Well, he later was signed by the Brookyn Dodgers, and
    history was made. So even here in 1994, the Red Sox may have a lot more
    black players, but until I see some in the front office or on a
    managerial level, my mind will always be set. The Boston Red Sox is a
    predjudiced organization!!!!

    I am a white man, and can also say that Webb got what he deserved...
    
    ;-)
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

>    I am a white man, and can also say that Webb got what he deserved...
>    
>    ;-)
>    
>    Chip_GSH_Bach


Gee, I'm white, and I never heard of this Webb guy.  I guess he didn't
create any impression in me......


'Saw

    No, but you can still say it!   ;-)

    
    
    	Yabbut, Tony brought back some interesting memories.  Remember
    Jimmy Meyers on double you eee eeee aye?  He used to go on a
    "Celtics are Rascist" tirade at least once a week.  He wanted
    the C's to put up a statue of Russell right in the center of da Gahden
    entrance.
    
    Doc Manyzero's used to call in to his show alot too!
    
    I remain,
    wonderin if I should ask Tony if there were any wind-measuring devices
    at his race.
    Kev
    

    That perception's a hard one to get rid of.  There are still places in
    Boston I wouldn't walk around by myself.   I think there are people
    trying to change things.  The Red Sox Assistant GM is African-American as 
    is the new announcer. (Both black women).  It may not be much, but it's
    a start.  They have AA coaches and they put Mo Vaughn on their yearbook
    cover.  Of course, if people don't want to be changed or don't want to
    listen, that's another issue.
    
    There was no way Jimmy Myers was going to last at that station as long
    as the Celtics owned it.  Some of what he said was true, but I think
    some was overboard too.  
    
     

    There are places in Boston I wouldn't walk around in by myself either. 
    Likewise for Phoenix, Los Angeles, etc.

Hell, there's place I don't go in Hartford unarmed.  And unlike Tony,
I'm just a wicked slow white guy (who cain't jump either).....


'Saw

|    I remain,
|    wonderin if I should ask Tony if there were any wind-measuring devices
|    at his race.
|    Kev

Yea Kev, but they went off the scale when you broke wind.

I liked Meyers, and agree that much of what he said was true, but much was
overboard.  There is no doubt that Russell got a bum deal from some, but not
all fans, and there is little doubt that through the 40s, 50s and 60s the Red
Sox were the most predudiced organization in baseball.

    The fact of the matter is, strange as it may sound, current Red Sox'
    ownership is probably the most progressive, least screwed-up group in
    town at the moment, in almost all facets including city relations (I'm
    reserving judgment on Bob Kraft, whose m.o. is not yet well known).
    The Yawkeys are dead and Haywood Sullivan is back on the farm, folks...
    
    glenn
    

    
      re Kraft
    
       I had a good feeling about Kraft when after the news conference
      announcing that he had bought the Pats, his wife was asked what it
      felt like to be married to a hero. Her reply was, "my husband isn't
      a hero. He just owns a football team. Teachers, parents - those 
      people are heroes. One of the things that I am going to do though
      is to give out more tickets to inner city kids." Such a thought
      would never have even crossed Billy Sullivan's mind.
    
       re The Red Sox
    
       The Red Sox being the most progressive and least screwed up is like
      being the best figure skater in Somalia. Nice but not exactly tough
      to do. When the comp is the Celtics who are run by a blatant greedhead
      with terminal foot-in-mouth disease and the Bruins with Harry Sinden
      and Delaware North the Red Sox would be hardpressed to do worse than
      those two. 
    

    Hi,
     Funny you should mention Jimmy Myers. I actually met him in 1977 at
    Fenway Park. I won some contest in school, and the prize was to attend
    a Red Sox game, meet some of the players, etc. So, I met Yaz, Rice,
    Fisk and Lynn, Then Mr. Myers (who was at WBZ at the time) met with me.
    I was, and have always been impressed with him ever since. I was
    sad when he got canned from WBZ in '79; Then relieved when he was later
    hired by the Celtics and FOX 25. I wrote to Mr. Myers a year ago, and
    received a return letter from him. He basically told me to be strong,
    stay positive, and do not let anyone or anything stop you from
    achieving your goals. Yes, Jimmy Myers has had some "conflicts" with
    the media. The reason for that is because he is very outspoken and not
    afraid to speak his mind. That is what I admire about Jimmy Myers the
    most - his never say die attitude, and don't take no for an answer. My
    hat goes off to Jimmy Myers. He is a prime example of a leader, and is
    truly one of the greats in the sports world.

    
    
      Jimmy Meyers punched his own ticket out of town when he gave
     that totally inappropriate "Keeper At The Gate" speech at Reggie
     Lewis' memorial service at Northeastern. I never listened to the
     guy on the radio and thought he was a bit cheesy on the 'Tics
     telecasts and when he did sports on 'BZ. If the act that I saw 
     at the Northeastern is indicative of who Jimmy Meyers really
     is then Boston is better off without him. He's a clown.

    Yes, I remember that incident. If you put a statue of Russell in the
    Garden, then you have to have one of Bird, Havlicek, Cowens, McHale,
    Parish, The Jones Boys, etc. I personnally think that there should be a
    Boston Celtics museum, or better yet, there should be little plaques in
    the new Garden(scheduled to open in the Fall of 1995. It will actually
    be called the Shawmut Center, because Shawmut bank is funding the whole
    thing). But have plaques of all of the Celtics greats of the past. I
    mean there have been so many that it would make sense to do something
    like that.
                        -Tony

    Bird has one in the NE Sports Museum already...

    Something like the Ring of Fame in Texas Stadium would be a good
    tribute.

    
    
      They have a Boston Garden Hall of Fame already.  I've been to the
    Garden a bazillion times and even watched them induct members a few
    years ago but for the life of me can't remember where in the garden
    it is.  Boards and Blades area rings a bell but a little foggy today.
    
    
    Jerry