| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 123.1 | Solved a few questions... created some... | POLAR::MAHANEY | Mikey - Deliver us from evil! | Thu Feb 06 1997 04:35 | 5 |
| Well I was impressed with the episode but I found it just a bit too
much on the cheesie side. And what about the future tidbits seen in
previous episodes, are these changed because of different actions taken
by sheridan?
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| 123.2 | | TROOA::TEMPLETON | One fine day......Spring | Thu Feb 06 1997 18:07 | 15 |
| I enjoyed it but
spoiler
I thought they gave in far too easily, I mean, if your very existance
depends on keeping the war going, wouldn't you force the issue a bit
more than they did.
Also I was expecting the the fight of the century, but that was over
far too soon.
The end sure has raised a few more questions, who are they going to
fight now?
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| 123.3 | oh, boy | QUARRY::petert | rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty | Mon Feb 10 1997 17:00 | 87 |
| Massive,
I mean way massive
spoilers ahead...
Don't even think of reading these if you haven't
watched the episode. Or you'll be sorry...
I mean really really really sorry
I mean it.
That's it? The war's over? No more Shadows? No more Vorlons?
As Ivanova would say "don't jinx it".
Actually, from what replys from JMS I've read, the indication is that
this is exactly what he was hoping people would feel. What now?
There were a bunch of precious moments here. It's all in the details.
Londo, realizing for the first time what Morden had done.
Londo, dealing finally with Morden, and his answer to the Shadow
problem.
Vir, finally getting in that little wave ;-)
Londo, bubbling out to Vir, saying he's informed the Vorlon's
that all Shadow influence has been removed, until Vir points
out his oversight.
Londo, of course, has now doomed Centauri Prime to suffer the fate
he is trying to avoid. But it appears otherwise to him at the
moment.
And now we know what the third age is. Did anybody guess right?
Did anyone else think the final Vorlon and Shadow images were, how
shall we say, a little wimpy? "Will you go with us?" "We will not
be alone?" Hmmmm, have to think about that one for a while.
But very, very interesting.
Now back to Bester and what really happened to Mr. Garibaldi!
PeterT
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| 123.4 | a good episode, let's see what happens | SUBSYS::MSOUCY | MentalmETALMike | Tue Feb 11 1997 12:20 | 10 |
|
I thought it was over a tad too fast personally. And yeah, a little
wimpy with the shadows/vorlons...
Vir's wave! ;-) I didn't catch the head till the second time I watched
it (sunday @ 5:00) so it was a nice touch! The third age....I'm trying
to think what was said! Too much else was running through my mind at
the time(s)!
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| 123.5 | | EVMS::SCHUETZ | VMS Clusters Memory Channel 381-6075 | Tue Feb 11 1997 21:08 | 4 |
| The resolution was too pat.
I was looking forward to more screentime for the First Ones.
They have the best special effects.
|
| 123.6 | | CSC32::HADDOCK | Pas Fini! | Wed Feb 12 1997 14:20 | 45 |
| re .5
> The resolution was too pat.
spoilers:
Maybe part of intelligence is knowing when you should give up the
fight. Once it became obvious that the only way that the Vorlons
and Shadows could win was to destroy the very thing that they had
worked so hard to build, and besides the building was finished
anyway, then the fight became pointless. Besides, here were _the_
first ones telling them, "Hey dudes, bug off".
The whole thing seemed rather rushed, though. They could have
easily made two episides out of it. I found the part about
First Ones whacking the Vorlon planet killer particularly
satisfying. I wish they would have done that in more detail.
I also like the way JMS has integrated the 'flying saucers'
into the show.
fred();
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| 123.7 | A lot crammed into one episode | STRATA::RUDMAN | Always the Black Knight | Wed Feb 12 1997 18:54 | 44 |
| This episode reminded me of when the big kids prey upon the little kids
until the adults move in the stop it.
Some spoiler lines before the details:
Agreed: Easily enough for two-parter.
Just because the aligned/non-aligned worlds got together to combat
both Vorlon and Shadow and told them their "guidance" isn't
needed anymore shouldn't have been enough to cause them to "leave"
the galaxy, even with the Old Ones and Lorien present. The implication
is the Vorlons and Shadows are scared witless of Old Ones and were
afraid of "moving on" without some hand-holding. Is that why they hung
around? Were they using the younger races as an excuse not to evolve?
On the other hand, is it a scheduling thing? Is Season 5 in serious
doubt? (I don't access the B5 Net sites, so haven't a clue as to the
current status.) Could it be JMS is clearing out the Shadow problem
so he has time to overthrow the corrupt Earth government before the end
of this season? Note that the next episode features Bester, so JMS is
obviously getting right to the
Also, I'm still chewing on the destruction on Centauri Prime 15 years
hence. If all the Vorlons and Shadows have moved on, *who* zapped
Londo's cities? Did a few Shadows hang back? Is it the remnants of
Earth gov. taking a swipe at CP (with their Shadowships) as *they*
flee? (Kind of iffy, as we'd expect the Earth to be "freed" by the
end of the B5 arc and the bad guys killed, captured, or exiled.) Doubt
if its Narn, as it should take more than 15 years for them to re-build;
besides, they made a deal. So who did Sheridan p-off bad enough to
strike at CP 15 years later? Do we wait for the spin-off? :-)
Don
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| 123.8 | compressed | EVMS::SCHUETZ | VMS Clusters Memory Channel 381-6075 | Wed Feb 12 1997 19:03 | 8 |
| It might be due to the Season 5 uncertainty.
JMS said he would finish the mainline story in this season, if season 5
isn't authorized. But that means more plot into fewer episodes.
Personally, I really want to see more of the First Ones' cool ships
than the fraction of a second each was on-screen. And more extended
battle scenes would have been nice.
|
| 123.9 | episode explanation | UNIFIX::DIBBLE | RECYCLE - do it now, or pay later! | Wed Feb 12 1997 21:20 | 16 |
| JMS has said that each season has 10-12 arc episodes. He's also said
that currently he's putting all season 4 and 5 arc episodes into 4
***at this time***.
So, keeping that in mind, this should have been a later episode. Oh,
about 10-13 or in there.
The thing that will annoy me, is if they approve year 5, then JMS
shoves a bunch of non-arc episodes at the end of this season or the
beginning of next year. No doubt they will be entertaining, but I've
always enjoyed the arc eps best.
At this time, 12-feb-97, year 5 is still unknown. Don't believe what
you read in the Herald.
Ben
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| 123.10 | CP vs Shadows vs Minions | UNIFIX::DIBBLE | RECYCLE - do it now, or pay later! | Wed Feb 12 1997 21:25 | 29 |
| SPoilers for WWE and ITF
ACME Spoiler Space
When you need the very, um, well, kinda goodest empty space
ACME
I believe it is stated in WWE II that "the shadow minions" are the ones
that are continuing to attack CP.
Here's what I think.
The Shadows were the gods of Chaos. They employ chaotic/bad races.
The Shadows leave. Those races who were under Shadow control, are no
longer. They rampage & generally have a chaotic time. Oh, and by the
way, they find out that Londo nuked the Shadows on CP. So they drop by
now and then to burn a few cities, etc.
|
| 123.11 | | SMURF::PETERT | rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty | Thu Feb 13 1997 03:31 | 74 |
| C'mon guys, spoiler space when needed...
and a few more lines
I disagree that the resolution we have just seen is due to the
possible loss of season 5. JMS has always maintained that
the Shadow/Vorlon conflict was NOT the whole story. And at least
as early as last year he had said that the Shadow war would be resolved
early on in this season. Of course, now that I try to find that
particular note (I've got everything squirreled away) I found
something that said that when they got the year 4 decision,
knowing they might be in trouble with PTEN being basically non-existant
Joe looked at everything and tried to figue out how they could
squeeze it all in and not short change everyone. Which supports
some of the things that others have mentioned. I did find a note
from February of '96 that says...
Never said that the shadow war ends this season. I simply said
it wouldn't run all the rest of the series. And even when a war is
over, the afteraffects can be felt for some time. And there may be
related problems still to clean up.
jms
Which kind of supports my conclusion, but is open-ended enough
to be taken either way.
But... yeah, it was over quick, but if this was always going to be
the resolution, and I suspect it was, your final battle will kind
of flash by like that. Much longer, and everyone would be dead
and there is nothing more to tell.
As far as the First One's ships go, if anything seemed strange
to me, it was that each of the 6 first ones only seemed to
have a ship apiece. Which implies, not very populous when
you get to that level, or maybe they've stored everyone away...
But at least we've got a good idea why the Sigma 957 1st 1's
acted pissed when Ivanova mentioned the Vorlon's. They probably
were saying something like "idiot's. You don't even know who they
are!"
PeterT
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| 123.12 | | BULEAN::BANKS | Orthogonality is your friend | Thu Feb 13 1997 15:37 | 57 |
| THar be spoilers ahead
I've heard a lot of complaining about this episode. Perhaps, because I
don't see war as the center of all history, I thought it was great. In
fact, many of the most interesting bits of history is seeing what nations
do AFTER the war is over. That's the tricky part.
FWIW, other answers about what happens on Centauri Prime happen starting
with the next episode.
Why did the Vorlons and Shadows go away so easy? Probably because they
realized that they'd just been called on their shit, and they didn't have a
good answer. If what Lorien was saying was indeed true, both of these
races had to be bored out of their collective consciousnesses over doing
the same thing over and over, and never getting anywhere. And let's face
it, even the best of parents will often jump and the chance to move away
from the kids to a Condo in Florida.
One of the things that I think is so neat about this show is that this
would have been a series finale for just about anything else: Bad guy's
gone, so everyone lives happily ever after.
... except that there are still a few small matters, starting with "What do
we do now," and working on to other issues like the fact that both the
Earth and Minbari governments are in shambles, and there are an awful lot
of races that got seriously involved with mom and dad, and they're going to
be none too happy to pretend that the whole thing's over.
In fact, without mom and dad around to referee, this could well mean that
the whole thing just shifted into high gear.
Like I said, I thought it was great. They're doing things that don't often
get done. (Just remember S:AaB -- bleah!)
|
| 123.13 | | 56724::RAMSEY | | Thu Feb 13 1997 17:04 | 39 |
| Spoilers ...
Well I liked this episode but I still think there are a lot
of things to explain. From the way everyone was talking
at the close of the episode it sounded like all the Shadows
and Vorlons had gone. Well that was kind of fast wasn't it?
I mean the Shadows have their people spread through out the
galaxy - they couldn't have all been there. And what about
the humans that are in the Shadow ships? Did they go beyond
the Rim too even though they're not really Shadows? If not
who's controlling all that technology. The more I think about
it the more questions I have. But I guess that's one of
the reasons I like B5 so much.
diane
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| 123.14 | | BULEAN::BANKS | Orthogonality is your friend | Thu Feb 13 1997 19:50 | 24 |
| Minor Spoiler
I do wish someone other than Ivonova (such as us viewers) also got to meet
the First Ones. Woulda been kind of interesting, I'd think.
Of course, we already know that one of them's french. ;-)
|
| 123.15 | MORE FX!!! | EVMS::SCHUETZ | VMS Clusters Memory Channel 381-6075 | Fri Feb 14 1997 14:47 | 8 |
| I guess I just wanted the best special effects to last longer than
a fraction of a second. The First Ones' ships were the most
interesting, but flashed by too quickly.
Anyone got a pointer to some JPG or GIF stills of the First Ones?
(Preferrably not just captured off video, but I'll that if nothing
else).
|
| 123.16 | | RUSURE::GENTRY | Enjoying the view from open windows | Mon Feb 17 1997 17:03 | 16 |
| Spoilers
No, I mean it.
I thought it was really neat, and in indication of his power, relative
to the other first one's, when Lorien simply left without a ship...
All of the other first ones had ships... he didn't seem to need one.
Also, after watching this episode again, and thinking about an earlier
one with Lorien, I think it was important that where the Vorlons were
asking 'Who are you?' and the shadows were asking 'What do you want?',
in Sheridan's dreams (or whatever they were), Lorien was asking both
questions ... 'Who are you? What do you want?'
Megan
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| 123.17 | | HIPS::WATSON | Eenie meenie minee moe...That one! | Wed Feb 19 1997 18:22 | 37 |
| From Martin Abrahams :-
Spoilers etc
I'm having trouble acclimatising to the hurry JMS seems to be in with
this series, but it's certainly fun. I recall complaining that the
entire series should be arc episodes, with no fillers, but this
headlong rush was not what I had in mind.
Once again, we are presented with an episode that feels like a
conclusion, begging the question what's left? After Z'ha'dum it was
reasonably clear what sorts of things had to happen. The Old Ones had
been stripped of their mystic and had been identified as the cause of
the problem, not the solution. Clearly our heroes had to rebel against
them both. But this time it's not at all clear what should follow. I
just hope JMS has a strong theme to carry us onward. I suppose we'll
see whether the young races are as capable of running their own affairs
as they hope they are. Narn has to reject revenge, with only g'kar to
teach them. Earth has to be saved from psicorps, Minbar has to rebuild
its government, as does Centauri I suppose. Presumably that's the
theme. Can the younger races maintain their alliance now that the enemy
has gone. Presumably there were plenty of races who had no part in the
alliance and there are probably a fair few still engaged in the wars
started by the shadows. The galaxy is now there for the taking for
anyone bold enough to strike now.
It was disappointing to see Morden killed. He would have made a good
leader of the shadow minions out for blood. Ah well.
So, what really happened to Mr.G, how does Londo get his keeper, where
are the technomages, what of the monks, what of Draal and his great
machine, what of the soul hunters? All good questions, but they don't
compare to what are the shadows and vorlons up to? Hopefully there's
more to replace these grand mysteries.
cheers, M
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| 123.18 | Season 4 vs. Season 5 vs. The Arc | STRATA::RUDMAN | Always the Black Knight | Wed Feb 19 1997 21:27 | 48 |
| FWIW, this Reply should have been before .17, but I ran out of time
writing it.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Spoiler space...
The day after I posted .7, I stumbled across info from May of '96 which
addressed the end of the Shadow War question. In it the noter said he
asked JMS if the Shadow War would last the whole arc, and JMS answered,
no, the Shadow War at most will last only until the middle of the 4th
season. Reportedly, JMS also said the Nightwatch thread would die down
(which it did), and would return Season 4 (which it has!). So my hopes
for a Season 5 are a bit higher now. So what/who will JMS come up with
to be bad enough to take the place of the Shadows, and mysterious enough
to out-mystify the Vorlons?
RE: .13 I hadn't thought of the non-Shadow-piloted ships left behind, and
any associated allies. (I've always like the word, "minions"...)
What do you do when your backers pull out? Futiley expend
yourselves against your enemy? Head for the hills? Strike a
deal? Supposedly the pilots aren't mad, and there *were*
survivors on Z'ha'dum. (Since there's now a Z'ha'dum Field Trip
planned, I guess we'll find out.)
Extrapolating (guessing), the minionS :-) remain aligned with EarthGov,
and when it falls the surviving minionS do head for the hills, taking a
swipe at CP on the way (I figure it *must* be more than Londo's nuke).
Speaking of Z'ha'dum, wouldn't it be a potential treasure-trove of Shadow
technology just waiting for someone to find/deal for it?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Martin (in .17; he likes "minions" too) makes a good point; the galaxy
is there for the taking. Best bet in PsiCorp going for it with *their*
Shadow technology.
Don
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| 123.19 | | RUSURE::GENTRY | Enjoying the view from open windows | Wed Feb 19 1997 21:36 | 9 |
|
> Speaking of Z'ha'dum, wouldn't it be a potential treasure-trove of Shadow
> technology just waiting for someone to find/deal for it?
Not to mention the vorlon home planet... and there are some, like Lyta,
who *have* been there... and as far as we know, it hasn't been blown
up (yet).
Megan
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| 123.20 | The Vorlon Home World: Can you get there from here? | STRATA::RUDMAN | Always the Black Knight | Wed Feb 19 1997 22:08 | 19 |
| A Vorlon Home World Trip sounds like a 3rd TV movie. Only Minbari have
any understanding of the technology. No one we've seen on the show so
far has had any luck accessing a Vorlon artifact that didn't want to be
accessed, and I'd suspect any remaining wouldn't be friendly.
I think it would be too big a leap. Don't get me wrong; I'd like 2 or
3 Season 5 episodes devoted to an expedition to the Vorlon Home World.
I just think a race to acquire Vorlon technology/artifacts would be too
far afield for the theme of the Arc.
'Course, JMS may feel differently; don't know if he's an advocate of the
"Doc" Smith School of Episodic Adversaries. (I made that up. :-))
Besides, Lyta has pretty much been someone's pawn so far; eventually
she should take a more significant role (given her new place in the
credits).
Don
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