Conference pasta::flex

    Hi CJ
    
    Welcome to the family.  The first step to getting in shape is to start
    logging in your daily consumption of food.  That means everything from
    the single cookie you have at snack to the last thing you eat before
    bed.  You need to get a calorie counter that lets you break down your
    food into measurements of protien, carbs, fat.  Tally up your daily
    food consumption to get an idea of how many calories, grams of fat,
    carb and protein your consuming daily.  After tracking this for a
    couple of weeks you can then adjust your diet with some degree of
    certainty.  Straigth dieting of just cutting down calories never works
    because you body adjusts to it quickly stops loosing weight quickly. 
    What you need to do is reduce fat and carbs increase protien.  The
    only way again to adjust this diet to get a baseline on what your
    consistently eating.
    
    The next thing is to increase your aerobic workouts daily.  Sounds
    like you have started.  What is highly recommended is to begin simply
    walking daily for a minium of 15 minutes of brisk, just break the sweat
    walking.  As time goes on you increase this to whatever amount of time
    you can spend.  Or you can switch to a more invigorating aerobic
    excercise like jogging, riding a bike or playing tennis.  You need to
    do this to get your body metabolism going again.  Its a proven fact
    that 15 mintues a day of aerobics gets your body to burn calories more
    effieciently.
    
    It is the combination of a healthy diet and excercise that will reduce
    fat.  Remember though you cannot reduce fat by spot excericising, ie
    doing something just for you legs.  Fat comes down over the entire body
    not just one place.
    
    
    The next step would be engage yourself in whole body weight lifting 3
    times a week.  Mon Wed and Friday is the most common.  The program is
    simple.  I don't have time right now to write one, maybe somone else
    can.  Or I can write monday.
    
    Are you in LKG.  If you want, I can meet you sometime for coffee and
    give you something you can write down
    
    Brian

    The other sad thing about living on this side of the planet, is that
    its cold in the winter, and wearing a bikini on a year round basis is
    not smart. So, we go into the winter fat stores, and when spring comes
    around, we look at ourselves and wonder what happened.:( Take it from
    experince, IF you get into a program, and stick with it, by August you
    will notice a major improvement. Its going through the winter with few
    colds, few fat offerings, like the tempations of the holiday feasts,
    and trying to come out the other side into the light of spring and
    summer. 
    
    Me? I am still chugging away in the cruel place. Sometimes I make
    months on end without an interuption, then there are times when the
    entire world falls apart, and workouts are far from the desired path.
    
    Only thing to do is; "Just Do It".:)
    

    CJ,
    one thing that may discourage you is the inability to lose those thighs
    without losing somewhere else first.  Most women lose from top down.
    So, you'll see the difference in your face, chest, back, etc. before
    you see anything budge on your hips, thighs, buttocks. Not much you can
    do about it, and some women get disouraged. You can do hip abductions
    until your legs fall off, and it won't make that fat go away. It has to
    be lost overall. A general rule of thumb - first place on/last place
    off. How to lose the fat has already been discussed. Mdoerate your fat
    intake, watch those calories (don't go too low, or you'll go into
    starvation mode and your body will hang onto every single calorie),
    kick up that metabolism by aerobic exercise and frequent small meals,
    and do some weight/resistance work whenever you can. Squats, bicep
    curls with juice cans or a gallon jug of water, triceps dips off the
    end of the couch, calf raises on the stairs. You can even fashion some
    leg weights from plastic grocery bags and sand. Tie it around your
    ankle and do quad raises!  It doesn't have to be fancy,
    state-of-the-art stuff.  You just have to START, and STAY with it! 
    And one of the things most people overlook is fluid intake. When you
    get dehydrated, you tend to feel sluggish. It's hard to go for that 15
    minute power walk when you can't even get up off the chair. Drink lots
    of water!
    Go easy on the fruits. A lot of people make the mistake of loading up
    on fruits, thinking they are eating healthy. Aside from the fibre and
    some vitamins, you are only getting sugar and water.  
    Good luck! give some of these suggestions a try and let us know what
    works for you.  And join us for lunch!!!!!!
    Sarah

	Hi CJ,

	Sarah pretty much said it all in the last reply.
	Just remember to take it slow at first, even though you were 
	in good shape at one time if you go at this thing too hard 
	you could get discouraged and quit or go at it half-heartedly 
	and not get good results. Be patient and the results will come
	in time. Also try to keep your diet clean with fish,chicken, turkey
	eggs etc. Protien will support and maintain muscle while dieting so
	get pleanty of it.

	Sarah's right about the fat loss. It's usually the chest 1st
	due to the fact that its mostly all adipose tissue (fat) and fat
	that the body can easily due without. The rest of it will just take 
	time to lose.
	
	As you know by now you must add in some kind of cardiovascular 
	workout to see results. Diet alone is not enough. I see this all the
	time in the gym. People who have been working out for a year but they 
	still look in the same shape or worse because they haven't cleaned
	up their diet or do no cardio or both.
 
	Also you can get a set of dumbells to work out with at home that won't
	cost you much. A set of 2,5,7,10 pounds can be had at most department
	stores for $30-$35 they are the plastic coated kind by any of the top
	fitness ladies like Cathy Smith, Denise Austin. They come in pink too!
	Do you have a Sports Authority near you. they also sell these seperate.

	Unfortunately, no one on this list can supply you with the most 
	important ingredients for success and they are the three D's

	DISIPLINE, DESIRE, DEDICATION
	
	When you get these three working for you the sky's the limit

	Wayne 
	

    I'd like to add one note about thigh fat.  You've probably heard the
    recent news that its better to be shaped like a pear than an apple?
    
    Well, the reason is that there are two types of fat:  mobile and
    stationary.  Mobile fat tends to get up and roam around your
    cardiovascular system, occasionally getting caught on artery walls. 
    Stationary fat is considered "safe" fat, and doesn't move much.  In
    fact, its virtually permanent.
    
    Guess where you find each?  A large amount of mobile fat is found
    around the belly.  It tends to seem hard, because it collects under the
    muscles of the stomach wall.  Stationary fat, though it may be found in
    various places, can always be found in one spot:  women's thighs.  This
    particular "fat depot" automatically accumulates during pregnancy, and
    automatically reduces during nursing.  It appears to be a reserve to
    ensure the safety of the mother's offspring.  However, it never
    completely goes away.
    
    Unfortunately, our society values slender thighs on women, which
    creates a very strong incentive to try to remove thigh fat.  But, at
    least from a health point of view, fat thighs are not really a health
    risk (unless you are fat elsewhere) and are murder to reduce. 
    Depending on your body makeup, it may be impossible to lose thigh fat
    without dangerously depleting the rest of your body.
    
    I know this may not be what you want to hear, but thats probably
    because we tend to value looks more than health in this country.
    Of course, the higher the percentage of muscle mass, the less obvious
    the fat will be.
    
    jeb
    

>    Where do I start?  Any suggestions would be appreciated!  
    
  cj,

	It sounds like you've already made a great start and that is with
  the most important thing, your attitude. It also sounds like you're being
  very sensible about your early training with walking and some swimming.
  Walking is the most natural and one of the best forms of exercise for
  someone returning to an active lifestyle. After a while, increase the 
  distance and pace. Then, when you're happy with your development you may
  want to branch out into some other forms of exercise. 

	But I do disagree with your desire to workout at home alone. It's too 
  easy to get bored and abandone your goals. Also, good equipment often is 
  more expensive than a membership at a YMCA or health club. I noticed that 
  you mentioned swimming. There may be a masters swim team in your area. 
  Master's swim teams are all adults who want to work on their swimming. Some 
  are fast and compete in swim meets while others are slow and just want to 
  exercise and improve their swimming. Master's swim teams are often 
  inexpensive and less expensive than paying admission to pools. Also, I bet 
  there's a walking group or club in your area. Likewise, a running group, if 
  that's your cup of tea. Whenever you mix in friendship and socializing with 
  your workouts, it always seems to be longer lived and more efective.
 
	One final note, I think your ideas about changing your diet are
  sensible. I disagree with some other noters about protein. We all need
  protein and have to include it in our diet but not too much. The big
  problem with protein is that it's often associated with fat. When I'm
  really serious about my training, I'll be vegetarian 5 or more days
  a week and I really notice the difference in my endurance and recovery
  in aerobic workouts. Eat veggies, whole grains(oatmeal, brown rice, whole
  grain breads etc), potatoes and virtually any food that grows out of the
  ground. Limit or eliminate butter, margarine, oils, fried foods, junk food
  and other fats. When you do eat meat, eat lean meats, remove skin from 
  chicken, fish is OK but limit consumption of animal products. Cut back on 
  salt and sugar. Water is a great drink.

	The suggestion to join everyone for lunch sounds like a great idea.
  Sorry I can't join you since I live in Colorado.

	Good luck,

		Keith

horrors! twinkies and ho-hos grow out of the ground, don't they?! the old animal
vs not will hold true for any arguement that's fitness orientated, but the 
answer lies in one's quest. does one want to have BIG muscles or just muscles? 
big muscles mean big protein and (MPO) not enough protien can be derived from 
vegeatable matter alone to get big muscles.

just determine what you want and them modify to meet that goal; you'll hear a
lot about top bb'ers that are vegetarians, but also look in their medicine 
chest; they may only eat veges, but they get their anabolic boost from other 
sources.  just about all natural bb'ers that have well defined and big muscles
include an ample amount of protein in their diet.

a whole new investigative look at diets is hitting the scene that are promoting 
the consumption of meat, yes- red meat, to get big and stay healthy as well as 
the need to ingest more fat, than was of late thought necessary, to maintain or 
lose weight.

the science of diet and eating to grow or maintain or lose is truly fascinating;
as complex as the human dna and will prolly end as simple as 1,2,3...

reg.

    Covert Bailey claims that not only does the minimum daily requirement
    published by the FDA meet the needs of virtually EVERYONE, he says that
    it is actually DOUBLE the requirement.  He says that after they
    determined the minimum requirement, they then doubled it to meet the
    requirements of pregnant and nursing women, etc.  His claim is that no
    one, including weight lifters, needs more than the MDR.
    
    He also points out that its extremely difficult to get, not the right
    amount, but the right MIX of proteins from a vegetarian diet.  That is,
    if you got your MDR from just bread, you'd still have incomplete
    protein, because bread dosen't have all the components the human body
    needs (in other words, all protein is not alike).  In this respect, he
    says meat is more complete, but penalizes you with extra fat.
    
    However, he goes on to say that that doesn't mean that eating extra
    protein in the form of meat isn't completely ineffectual.  But his
    claim is that its not the protein in the meat that builds the muscles. 
    
    The muscles only build so fast, and no amount of lifting will drive
    muscle growth over its peak.  But there is an ingredient commonly found
    in meat that is not found in grains, etc., and that is steroids. 
    Ranchers often boost the growth of their cattle with steroids, which
    end up back in our bodies.  If you eat a lot of meat, then the effect
    of the steroids in the meat will become noticiable, thus increasing the
    rate of tissue growth.
    
    jeb (Don't shoot the messenger)
    

woowee! let me to that meat market and stock up my freezer!  i read some similar
studies about the transfer of steroid from beef to human, but there was some 
research done that showed almost all pharmacuetical was driven off when heated 
to temps that would make the meat safe to eat, unless of course one likes steak 
tartare (sp) [however, i'm heaving just thinking about chicken tartare, if such 
a dish exists!]

anyone got the real scoop on the effects (or not) of steroid pumped up beef and 
human consumption?

reg.

    I disagree with Covert Baily. I disagree with Reg on the protein issue.
    
    Just wanted to jump into the fray here ; )
    
    Sarah (vegetarian)

    Ok Sarah
    
    How do you get enough protien on your veg diet?  If I can remember way
    back when, when I was a veggie, it was extremely difficult finding all
    the elements of protien in veggies, in other words you had to combine
    so many things etc to get the right mix.  For instance in a daily diet
    what would you have to eat and how much to make sure your getting a
    30-40% protien mix for your total calories?
    
    Brian
    

  Like I said in my previous reply, the biggest problem with protein is that
  it's often associated with large quantities of fat. Too much fat leads to 
  all kinds of health problems, most notably heart, cardiovascular, cancer 
  and other nasties.

  In regards to Covert Bailey, mentioned in a previous reply, I believe he
  is certainly on the right track. But I'm more familiar with the original 
  pioneer in the field, Nathan Pritikin, who promoted the high carbo diet.
  His findings from 30 years ago were ridiculed by the medical profession
  at the time and now they are saying he was right all along. In his books, 
  he does talk about some champion weight lifters who were vegetarians.
  
  Also, the most muscular animals on earth are all vegetarions but that
  be too simplistic of an argument.    

  There's a lot of disagreement about nutrition. In addition we have to 
  consider what the goals of the athlete are and the fact that we are all
  an experiment of one. Anyways, we've abondoned the original topic of the
  base note and maybe we should talk some more in another note.

	Keith

    Do you really want to know?
    You may not be happy, you red-meat-eaters.
    Here goes:
    Where do ANIMALS get their protein? Where do cows, horses, pigs, etc.
    get their protein? From plants!   Oh my gosh, the light is starting to
    dawn...
    Plants are the SOURCE of all essential amino acids, which combine to
    produce various proteins. Here are the ESSENTIAL amino acids:
    (spelling approximate) valine, lysine, threomine, leucine, isoleucine,
    tryptophan, phenlalanine, and methionine.  There is another one that
    only infants use, i believe it's called hystocine.  There are 22 amino
    acids, the above essentials included. 
    If you examine a plant, you will find all of the essentials present, in
    various concentrations. Even herbs, like oregano and parsley have them. 
    Fruit does not contain any. Like I said earlier, just water, sugar, 
    fibre, and some vitamins. If you eat a good variety of plants, remove 
    or reduce the fruit, you do not suffer from any protein deficiencies.  
    Rice actually has a higher protein index than chicken. I can't remember
    how it was calculated, something like ounce per ounce of useable
    protein.
    For those that only eat meat and potatoes, protein is probably an
    issue. For those that eat a wide variety of whole foods, it isn't an
    issue. 
    With the amount of exercise I get, if I had an issue with protein, I'd
    be dead by now. I lift on a two-day split. I don't go easy on myself.
    I do aerobics daily, sometimes twice a day (sometimes I'm working on a
    new routine that I will be teaching that night). I eat anything I want
    (anything vegetarian), anytime I want.  I don't supplement. I NEVER
    hesitate to eat dessert ; )
    Do I look unhealthy to you? Do I seem tired, run down, anemic?  Most
    people call me hyperactive. I don't drink coffee.
    The idea of food combining to get complete proteins is way old, and was
    long ago discounted.  Way back when, when you were a veggie (when was
    that, 1955? giggle!!!), it was probably considered a standard practice.
    Now it's considered an old-husband's tale.
    I don't recommend vegetarianism to everyone. Some people don't LIKE
    everything (Louisa???). I have an undiscerning palate. I'll eat any
    plant. Well, almost. Nothing psychedelic or poisonous. : )  Some people
    can't handle the fiber. Some people can't be bothered sourcing good
    fresh or frozen veggies in a good variety. Some people can't be
    bothered preparing food - fast or instant only. Some people just don't
    respond to a veggie diet. Some don't respond to a high carb, low
    protein diet. Some don't respond to a low fat diet. These machines we
    call bodies are so complex, I don't believe there is one solution for
    everyone. But I do encourage everyone to try it all out. Try Brian's
    diet, see how it fits on you. Try mine. Don't try reg's, unless you
    like dings dongs and ho hos. Don't try Lou's unless you like only
    white-colored food.  Hey!  Tofu is white!  And reg, you can make a MEAN
    alfredo sauce out of silken tofu!!!!!
    So, off my soap box.
    Sarah
    
    

    I don't understand.  You say someone who eats only meat and potatoes
    will have protein deficiency, but someone who eats nothing but rice
    won't?
    
    I don't understand how you can get all the amino acids you need from a
    single plant, but not a single meat (actually, I think you need variety
    in either case).
    
    Did I misunderstand?
    
    Also, given that a single (or combination of) plants has all the amino
    acids you need, isn't there an issue regarding carnivorus animals
    not having the necessary enzymes to break them all down?  Which
    explains why, if indeed a cow can get *everything* it needs from grass,
    why a human can't.
    
    jeb (this time, I'm completely on my own)
    

    Sharah! MY! Killing off Bambi and all that stuff makes me cry!:) Pooor
    turkeys! Poor little moo-moo cows.:) Sorry! Just kiddin.:)
    

    Yeah Sarah
    
    I admit I was a veggie 20 years or so ago so my knowledge base is
    dated, but you yourself said 22 amino acids in various combinations
    in various plants, so how do you ensure you get the right mix in the
    right volume for mass growth.  I know you look great and you look
    energetic, but I don't beleive you just slap something together and not
    worry about how your combining stuff to get your essential aminos. 
    
    My diet has little red meat mostly chicken and eggs and a ton of
    veggies and rice.  But to get the protien count I need requires a ton
    of chicken, eggs and protien suppliments.  I know there are many veggie
    lifters, I am just very interested in how you combine this to be sure
    you can gain mass.  Even my diet of chicken etc took a lot of thought
    and careful planning of meals so I just am curious how a veggie diet
    works.  
    
    Sarah  your heavy on aerobics so what is your daily caloric intake and
    what does you average daily meals look like.
    
    Brian who is very curious now.
    

i remember reading one pro bb'er that was a vegetarian describe their day's 
exercise/eating plan: [can remember it quite exact, but something like this:]
wake, eat, eat, exercise, eat, eat, eat, nap, eat, exercise, eat, eat, eat.

a pro veg will have to consume ernormous amount of foods to get the adequate 
protein needed for BIG muscle growth [Sarah, you look great, but not big]; this 
same pro veg bb'er also said that they have to take a ridiculous amount of 
supp's to meat his daily requirements [as well as hinting to the fact that it 
was more than just legal supps he was taking].

i'm not arguing that one can't get muscular and look great from eating only vegs
[and the most muscular animal on earth that are supposed to be vegs: they also 
consume much more different vegetable sources than humans would contemplate not 
to mention all the grubs, ants, larvae, etc that gets munched down with every 
mouthful of leaves and grass].  I particularly don't consider elephants, bears
[believe it or not, an omnivore but mostly herbivore], apes/monkeys, whales 
very muscular, yet their diets consists mostly of vegs; those aforenamed are 
HUGE, but pack on a lot of fat for survival when food sources are low. Plains 
animals have that muscluar look becuase they're always outrunning the 
carnivores and need to eat constantly to keep their fuel sources up.  lions, 
tigers, dogs, cats, reptiles: i consider muscular and fit [except for house 
dogs/cats which are way too lazy and overfed, i.e. human] as they eat quite a 
bit of everthing, but are way more active than a human and can keep their fat 
stores to the right proportions for THEM [humans are different].

if you want to stay 'fit', maintain strength [with increases], it can be 
accomplished with veges and exercise; however- i [humans] are ominvores 
bordering on carnivores and will continue to eat meat to get BIG and muscular;
granted i have fat on my body that shows, but that's because i'm not active 
enough and have too many "fat free" meals.

However, i, too, am curious, Sarah, what your daily diet looks like.

reg.

    jeb,
    Anyone who eats meat and potatoes needs the MEAT for protein, is what I
    meant. Not that the meat eater NEEDS protein. Sorry for confusing you.
    The other aminos are mostly manufactured by our own bodies.
    The 8 essentials combine to create plenty of useable proteins.
    You simply get your protein from a different source. To assume YOUR
    source is better than mine is, well, an assumption.
    I eat about 2,500 calories a day. Sometimes if I'm feeling lazy and not
    exercising much, it drops a bit. If I'm really cranking, a couple of 
    classes or on a bulking circuit, it goes up to around 3200.  If I 
    didn't have such a high activity level, I wouldn't need as many 
    calories, or protein, or any of the other nutrients. I listen to my
    body. If it says "I'm hungry", I feed it. 
    I eat all kinds of things. I don't even think about it. Ever. I eat
    whatever pleases me. At the end of the day I've had more than enough
    food to make me feel full, and more than enough nutrients to repair any
    damage I've done.  I eat rice every day. I eat large quantities of
    veggies every day (I always have a container in my frig here in my
    office with raw veggies in it. I snack all day). I eat whole grain
    breads every day. I eat legumes (lentils, chick peas, etc.) every day.
    They are just part of my diet. Every day. When I travel, I bring
    food with me because i know I won't have free access to the food I 
    want. I eat nut butters (cashes, sesame, peanut, almond, etc.). I eat
    miso, tahini, hummus, seitan, oatmeal, barley, pasta (try the super
    protein pastas!). It really is a non-issue in a good diet. If as a
    vegetarian I only ate salads and pasta, then I'd have a problem. And
    that's where we get the badge 'unhealthy'. Too many vegetarians don't
    take the time to research the basics of a good vegetarian diet.
    Again, I stress that it is NOT for everyone. I wouldn't dream of
    pushing my diet on ANYONE. Which is not something that can be said of
    carnivores when faced with a vegetarian. The number of people who wave
    meat in my face and think it's funny, tell me we were born to eat meat
    (sorry, we were born forragers), tell me I'm going to drop dead some
    day (my cholesterol level is 135, my blood pressue is 90/65).
    You can get just as good a diet by eating meat. Certainly! It seems to
    work for the majority of people I know.  If it works wonderfully well
    for you, don't change a thing.
    I think a lot of people are forcing themselves into an unhealthy state
    by reading and following whatever seems to make sense to them, without
    really, truly listening to their body.  Sure, if it makes sense try it
    out. But listen carefully to what your body is telling you.  I've seen
    men work themselves down to 9% bodyfat, feeling miserable the entire
    time. Hey! Smarten up!  Maybe 9% isn't for you! Maybe 13%,16%,20% is 
    a better set point for you to feel good, strong, healthy.  And I've 
    done the same thing myself - down to 14% bf, looking like a refugee, 
    feeling like crap, no strength, no energy, and it was NO FUN getting 
    there. Life is too short for that nonsense. 18% feels fine to me. I
    eat what I want, have plenty of energy for my numerous activities, and
    my clothes fit. I feel great. No need to change. If it drops on it's
    own, naturally, a point or two, then my body is telling me it prefers
    to be a bit lower. But I don't force it. Poeple just don't pay
    attention enough to how they feel, just how they look. Bleh! Remove all
    mirrors (Ok, 1 or 2 for Reg to pose into)! 
    Louisa, this discussion is really out of whack with the base note. Is
    there a better place to move it? Maybe a note on protein?
    Sarah

    Wow, I thought I would check in with my note this morning after making
    some decisions with my diet and exercise and wham, I'm hit with a whole
    new topic and one that I didn't touch on (mainly because the
    information was not available to me).
    
    First of all, thanks to everyone for enlighting me.  I am on my way. 
    Unfortunately at this time, I can't get to a gym.  I just don't have
    the time.  However, by the fall that should be an achieveable goal so
    there is hope.  In the meantime though, I have to work out at home.  I
    met someone in work that gave me invaluable information (thanks, you
    know who you are) and have planned a diet for the next month
    concentrating on low fat foods with an adequate amount of calories to
    support the exercise program that I hope to have as a daily routine.
    
    The exercise program consists of walking three days a week for an hour
    at a good clip (starting at 45 minutes this week and wow, are my shins
    sore!) and biking for 30 minutes at lunchtime two times a week.
    
    I have found some interested things when researching my diet.  First of
    all, I don't eat the recommended quantity of food; because my servings
    are probably twice what they should be.   I think that is
    probably half my problem.  Secondly, there are tons of low fat foods
    that I enjoy.  I am very suprized at the amount of food that I can
    consume during the day and still keep my diet under 2,000 calories and
    20 grams of fat.  I have started the process this week by eliminating
    extra servings and fat like butter and cheese and already after four
    days I feel better (count walking two out of three days in a row).  Oh,
    and adding a snack in the middle of the morning with fruit helps me
    keep my lunch to a minimum.  Having dinner earlier in the evening is
    going to help alot too.  We were eating at 8:00 p.m. and snacking after
    too.  No more of that!
    
    I am concerned about my protien though after reading these notes.  The
    majority of my foods that I will be eating have lot of grains in them. 
    I have meat on my diet for once a week.  I will be eating mostly
    bagels or oatmeal for breakfast, fruit late morning, Turkey/Wheat
    sandwiches or yogurt for lunch, and dinner will always have lots of
    vegetables with either rice or pasta, and a meat/fish/chicken.  But
    that is a really rough outline.   I looked at the web page with fat and
    calorie counting but they didn't offer protien information.
    
    I am severely anemic and because of this, am constantly tired.  I can't
    take iron pills but do take a multi vitamen and eat lots of green
    vegetables to supplement.  I'm hoping the exercise will also help.  I
    also have low blood pressure and ever since I had pneumonia, my lungs
    haven't been the same.  
    
    I can't wait to reap the results of good dieting and exercising. 
    Thanks everyone!
    
    cj
    
    

    CJ,
    Sorry for rat-holing your topic! I asked Lou to move it, so it doesn't
    clutter up things. But at least you get a good idea of the REST of the
    story in this file, and the cast of characters ; )
    Quick question - do you have a target calorie intake? You said 'below
    2000'. How far below?
    And about the anemia (Ok, TWO quick questions), are you under a
    doctor's care for it?
    
    Here's my editorial comment again about fruit...it's just sugar.
    Fructose, glucose, doesn't matter. It's all sugar to your body. Unless
    you need the extra fiber or vitamin c, I'd substitute it with something
    of equal caloric value but with more benefits.  Don't get me wrong. I
    LOVE fruit. But if you are trying to restrict calories and improve your
    nutrient intake, you could do better than using fruit to stave off the
    hungries.  Fruit is expensive, calorie wise. Just my opinion. Try it
    out. If it works, terrific!
    
    Good plan on the exercise. Sounds like you got a good friend somewhere
    with good advice!  Hope to see you more often in here. Now, to move our
    rathole notes about protein, vegetarianism, etc.  Lou? Oh LOU?
    
    Sarah
                                   

    I was told to keep my diet close to 2,000 calories.  We started out
    with 2,500 calories actually but I really want to lose 10lbs and
    thought I would manage with 2,000 fine.  When I put my list of what I
    would eat together, I was shocked to see most days were somewhere
    around 1,600.  However, I have a list of things that I can add to it on
    the days that I'm feeling sluggish and need something more.  Most days
    I will probably need more seeing how much I take in now.  At least I'm
    anticipating that.  I guess I'll have to wait and see how the days are
    going.  The fat intake for these days works out to be about 4-60 grams
    but this really fluctuated depending on what days I ate meat vs. fish,
    etc.  
    
    As for my anemia, I have been this way all my life.  Its not as bad as
    it used to be but they got concerned when my blood pressure went
    drastically down.  They don't seem overly cautious about it though.  I
    bruise so easily too.  As I said, vegetables and multivitamens do seem
    to help.  
    
    Some other things that I forgot to mention.  I do understand about the
    thigh issue and how you will lose fat from top to bottom.  I
    specifically remember two things.  One, when I lost alot of weight in
    my early twenties, most of it went to the place that I probably didn't
    want to lose it (aka chest) and after the birth of my son was when I
    realized my legs/thighs have changed physically.
    
    I am still hoping that if I start to exercise my chest that the loss of
    fat won't be too dramatic.  Heck, there ain't much left to lose up
    there! :) and if I concentrate on my leg/hip/buttock area that in time,
    and I do mean in time, the flab will start to look a bit better.
    
    cj
    
    p.s. I have given myself four weeks to lose 10lbs on this diet.

    
    
    Hi CJ,
    
    	I have some suggestions about your diet. I would skip the bagel
    	at breakfast and stick with the oatmeal. If you want add a couple
    	of egg whites. I would also take it easy on the pasta. Once in 
    	a while is ok but I wouldn't add it to a regular menu.
    	I use to eat a lot of pasta and rice and other high carb meals
    	thinking this and some exercise would get me a better/bigger shape
    	and all it did was expand my waistline a few inches.
    	People say you need a lot of complex carbs for energy but I don't
    	feel thats the case. I think moderate carbs can do just as good.
    
    	I know someone here will not agree with me for saying that but then
    again I also don't use salt or drink milk. I eat a lot of protien in my
    diet because thats what works for me. 
    
    You will have to find out for yourself what the correct macro-nutrient
    ratio is as far as the correct amount of protien/carb/fat intake you
    need to achieve your goals. Trial and error as it goes. 
    If you feel sluggish then eat more, if you feel good then keep things
    the way the are. Not losing weight, drop your maintenance calories down
    a bit. Add another walking session or add 5 more minutes to you
    existing exercise.
    There are a number of ways to adjust your diet/exercise to get results.
    Try one if it doesn't work try a different way.
    
    Just remember, if it feels good and you see results stick with it.
    Don't make extreme changes. Little changes work best, that way you will
    know exactly what works. Start a diary, that way you can look back at 
    what works and what doesn't and you can also chart your progress as
    well.
    
    Use your judgmenet, use these notes as a guideline only. What works for
    me or Sarah or Reg or any others here may not work for you.
    
    Good luck, stick with the exercise and above all have fun 8^)
    
    Wayne   

    -1 Thanks for your 2 cents! 
    
    I am curious as to why you would think that an oatmeal is better than a
    bagel.  I am not going to be eating both of them at the same time but
    thought for variety, it would be nice to switch.  Actually, I prefer
    bagels to oatmeal and thought they had less fat.  Typically they fill
    me up better and give me more energy than oatmeal (then again, I
    haven't had oatmeal much lately).
    
    Clear on the pasta issue and agree.  Its only in my diet once every
    other week.
    
    Thanks!
    
    cj

    Here's a good webpage for you:
    
    		http://www.women.com/body/food/
    
    This page will accept your input data - weight, height, frame size,
    sex, etc. - and tell you more or less precisely what your dietary
    requirements are, including protein.
    
    I just checked my stats, and it wants me to get 64 grams a day on a
    2200 calorie diet.  That doesn't sound like a lot to manage.  And as I
    mentioned earlier, the minimum daily allowance for protein is supposed
    to take into account lots of factors, including exercise.  I don't
    think you need to worry too much about this one.
    
    jeb
    

    CJ,
    Wayne is right on about that bagel. If you can get your carbs from 
    sources with more nutrients in them, you are that much ahead of the 
    game.  A whole wheat bagel or oat bran bagel is a much better choice 
    than a plain bagel. Oatmeal or other hot grain cereals are an even 
    better choice.
    If you are going to eat pasta, try a whole wheat, spelt, or quinoa
    pasta. they are loaded with nutrients, including protein. They are 
    an acquired taste, some of them, but with enough of that homemade 
    fresh tomato sauce with veggies in it, you won't notice the difference.
    
    But heck, once in a while you just GOTTA have that yummy bagel with the
    cream cheese, and fettucine alfredo!
    
    Sarah (grins!)

    I checked out that web site and it was just what I needed.  Many
    thanks!  I have been right on with alot of this which makes me feel
    better.  The amount of weight I want to lose and how many calories I
    need to work the diet was exact!  However, they specified 30% of fat in
    this diet for me and I thought that was a bit much.
    
    cj

    CJ
    
    
    30% fat is way too much.
    
    Brian

>    30% fat is way too much.

Depends on who you read, and what kind of fat.  Dan Duchaine has been promoting
30% fat for some time now.  Now whether or not you agree with Dan and his
theories is a different argument.  However, it would appear to me that there is
still a lot of disagreement in general over the correct amount of dietary fat.

ymmv,
--Scott

    Part of the justification for higher fat is that if you go too low (and
    that will probably vary on an individual basis) then your body will
    start craving it, or start feeling hungry, which can impact your
    staying on your program.
    
    But there does seem to be universal agreement that 30% is the maximum.
    
    The page that I pointed out is an interactive one.  You specify your
    particulars, and it displays your requirements.  There is a radio box
    to override the 30% fat level with 25, 20, 15 or 10%.
    
    jeb
    

    Ya, I thought 30% was over what it should be (mostly because my friend
    told me 10%) but noticed the side area that pointed that less 20% would
    create a feeling of deprivation, which is a major reason why diets
    fail).  This particular 30% consisted of:  13.95 Saturated, 25.92 Mono
    and 19.93 Poly.
    
    
    I edited this to 10% and the first thing it said was that this is
    unrealistic for "most" people.  Oh fine, let's move on.  The calorie
    intake went up 78 calories to 1872.08 but fat went down to 20.80
    grams which was 59.80 before.  Big difference!

    
    
    We'll see how I feel.
    
    cj

	It kind of depends what you're going for, if you are trying to build
muscle I strongly agree you need 30% fat in your diet, any less than that and
your going to burn up much needed protien, in fact, many bbr's are going even
higher fat than that and cutting back on carbs. Even at 30%, saturated fat
should be kept at a minimum. Anyone trying to build size with less than 30% fat
in their diet is really slowing the process way down.
	For weight loss there are also studies that are showing low, low fat is
not the way to go and that calories, reguardless of fat% are what's important.
If I were you I'd go with a 30/30/40 diet and watch the calories, you might be
pleasently surprised. 

    Sarah you say to try Brian's diet, try your diet. I'd love to. There
    aren't enough educated veg. out there, including me.
    I've face it. You guys know it all. I know nothing about this stuff.
    

    The key to any body building diet or program is to try one for a time
    and see if it works for your body.  I can guarentee you that if you buy
    all three big body building magazines and read them your going to get
    radically different information from each pro.  One will say work 20
    sets per body part, one will say do 4 maximum weigth one will say eat
    30% fat the other will say eat 10.  The reason this is true is because
    every one of us has a different metabolic rate.  We have different
    genetics, our muscles are different, our skeletal structure is
    different.  That means we will react to various things based on all of
    the above.  What works for one won't work for another.  What you have
    to do to is try something that sounds right to you.  Try it with
    discipline.  In other words you have to log everything you do and
    everything you eat and then compare month to month for progress. If you
    put on mass and lost fat thats working for you.  If you put on fat and
    no mass, then start to add differences slowly until the program begins
    to work.  What most of us do is try it for a month then drop it and try
    something different.  What I have found is by modifying things slightly
    each month, I can find what works best for me long term.
    
    So yes, your going to hear so many different routines and diets.  The
    only way to find out what works best for you is pick one and then track
    it, and over a period of time if it does not work, modify it until it
    does.
    
    brian

    Brian,
    How long do you usually give to see if a change is working for you? I
    usually give it 3 months, but for someone who is trying to lose enough
    weight to look good in a bikini (or speedo ; ) 3 months seems like an
    awfully long time. 
    Sarah

    Sarah
    
    My weight is very constant and if it fluctuates its only a pound in
    water weight a day.  So I would suggest a month.  If your not shedding
    consistent pounds in a month, then adjust.  I think the problem is that
    anyone trying to loose significant weight in a couple of months, can
    only do that by starving themselves and hurting themselves in the
    process.  To me people who baloon diet like that will just look good
    for a short period of time, but because they did it as a fad, will pack
    it right back on because they did not make life changes necessary to
    keep the weight off.
    
    Brian

    Only a month? Wow, your metabolism must react fast!  Good for you! It
    really takes me about 3 months to really tell if the dietary changes
    are having the desired affect.
    
    Brian makes a good, if subtle point, about diets.  Whatever you decide
    on, is it for a specific goal? And what happens when you reach that
    goal? Do you have a maintenance plan?
    
    Reg,
    Follow me over to 750, where the vegetarianism note is, so we don't
    rathole CJ's note any further.
    
    Sarah

    Sarah,
    	I would love to know more about your diet. There aren't enough
    educated veg. out there. Is there a good veg. book,etc?

    Progress report:
    
    Diet of approximately 1500 calories, give or take, and 20-25 grams of
    fat, give or take.  Diligently on second week, but a week before I
    started this diet I was watching what I was eating and monitoring so I
    figure its been three weeks of dieting.
    
    Anyways.. starting walking three times a week first week, last two
    weeks on stationary bike at least three times a week.  
    
    I have lost 7.5lbs already but I think alot of it was water when I
    started so in all reality its probably only like 4lbs.  
    
    The most startling thing to me was the foods and meals that I can
    create without adding unnecessary fat and still being very tasty!  I
    don't need that butter or sauce on most of my foods that I thought I
    enjoyed so much.
    
    The other interesting tidbit is how much I enjoy getting on the bike. 
    I have seen a drastic difference from the first time I got on the
    thing.  I am not as out of breath as I was in the beginning and I find
    my legs are not as sore as they were in the beginning either.
    
    Thanks to all for your suggestions!
    
    cj

    CJ Terrific progress!  Congratulations!
    Sarah

  A lot of progress since .0  

  Good job CJ,

	Keith