Conference noted::ibmpc-95

    I'm having problems using Verbatim TR1 Extra (1GB Compressed) tapes in
    my Iomega Ditto 800 tape drive. I have two tapes which either hang in
    endless loop while backing up or only give me under 800MB of storage.
    
    Anyone had problems using these tapes? Could it be the Arcadia backup
    software??
    
    

    You probably already realize that you'll never get the full 1GB
    compressed capacity, right?  My "800MB" tapes typically fit about
    660MB of mixed files on them.
    
    But I've also wondered if backup software would have any trouble with
    the "extra" length tapes.
    
    Tony

    My understanding is that if the software wasn't written with the extra
    long tapes in mind, it probably won't work.
    
    Check the version of the Arcadia backup and see if the documentation
    (if any) discusses the extra long tapes.  Sending email to the software
    manufacturer (Arcadia, now Seagate somethingorother) should (hopefully)
    get you a definitive answer.
    
    -- Russ

    
    I guess Digital(DIGITAL/DEC) is not the only company with a "branding"
    problem.  The company that made the backup software was "Arcada" not
    "Arcadia".  They are now owned by Seagate Software as it was pointed
    out in a previous reply.
    
    John
    

    It's those people out there with "Connor" disk drives (Conner is
    another recent Seagate aquisition.)
    
    					Steve

    ...and Phillips CD writers...
    

    re: .488
    
    It's not a branding issue.  It was a typo.
    
    Sorry.

    FWIW - I have had similar problems with Verbatim tapes in Colorado/HP
    tape drives...  This was a known tape quality issue with the HP tech 
    support folks.  HP tapes worked fine!

    I bought a bunch of Verbatim DC2120 tapes at Compusa (rebate made 'em
    about $3 each) to use in my Backpack 800TD with the Arcada software that
    came with it, to use for small backups.  I got what I paid for - lots
    of errors on every tape, and if I turn on compression I get
    uncorrectable errors.  And I have to reformat every one before I can
    use it.  No such problems with the 3M TR1 cartridge I have (but at $25
    a pop, I didn't want to buy any more for a while).

    Were the Verbatim DC2120 purchased as pre-formatted tapes?
    I ask because I'm curious as to whether there is some problem
    with certain backup units (head alignment, setup of tape guides etc.)
    which necessitates the approach of re-formatting a tape before using
    it. If this is the case, maybe it makes in those situations to buy
    unformatted tapes, format them yourself on the backup unit to be
    used on. This might bring better results. As an analogy, I've had
    occasions in the past where I have purchased pre-formatted 3 1/2"
    floppy disks (on sale), and have experienced problems with some
    small percentage of the floppies out of the same box being formatted
    properly. Re-formatting the troublesome ones solved the problem.
    I've also read that it's probably a safe habit to get into of
    formatting a tape (irregardless if it's pre-formatted or not), on
    the unit it is to be used on. I don't necessarily adhere to that
    regiment on my own internal tapebackup unit, but I have heard others
    say they get more consistent results for the extra effort taken.
    
    Bob

    Yes, they were preformatted.  I could not use them at all before I
    reformatted them, and after formatting they racked up a couple hundred
    errors, some uncorrectable, when I had comression turned on, much fewer
    with it off.
    
    However, the 3M TR-1 tape I bought with the drive, and the Sony TR-1
    tape I just bought had no problems.  The latter had 4 correctable ECC
    errors when comparing during a backup of ~600MB the other night - and
    it saved my bacon during my abortive attempt to upgrade to w95 this
    weekend.

re .495 ...

Hi,


I am using preformatted Verbatim 1 GB tapes (they are labeled Verbatim TR-1
EXtra here in Germany) with my Ditto easy 800 with no problems. I am using Ditto
Tools 5.2.1 now, but used an older version of ditto tools before.

453 M Bytes are used on a tape, that has 0 K Bytes available space and 497 M
Bytes Cartrige Size. At least this is what Ditto Tools are saying. 


Norbert

    Updating the information on a problem I had with compatibility between
    Colorado Backup for Win95 and Colorado Backup for DOS (reading
    compressed tapes only):
    
    The version of CBW95 I was using back then was 1.01.  It is now up to
    1.6 or 1.7, depending on who you listen to.  Even given the error
    number and other details, HP/Colorado support can't find records of the
    specific problem but suggested trying the new versions which currently
    ship with the drives.
    
    The site requires a password from support to download the new versions,
    though newsgroup chatter has it that unprotected copies are around. 
    The guess is that they did this because the software can be used with
    drives other than their own.  I think it's just because they like those
    incremental $$ coming in ($25 for the new versions).
    
    Since the original problem depended on a particular byte alignment, and
    I don't have details on reproducing it, the proof will be one of those
    try-it-and-see deals.                   
                           
    Tony    

    I bought An Exabyte Eagle 96 and Verbatim MC3020EXtra tape. I wish I
    had read this note first. 
    I bought this stuff on Saturday afternoon and wasted all day Sunday
    trying to get things going. I got a "tape is not formatted" error
    message. It just kept 'shoeshining' (BOT -> EOT -> BOT-> EOT...)
    when I told it to format.
    
    Monday evening , I called Exabyte support: not any help. They couldn't
    prove/dispove media or drive problem. I brought it all back for a
    refund.
    

    I bought the Exabyte Eagle 96 and a few pre-formatted TR-3 tapes, and
    have yet to have a single problem with them under Windows-95. I use the
    supplied Seagate Backup for 95 software V1.1 and all is well. Not a
    problem at all.
    
    I guess my luck is still good...
    
    Mark

    It seems strange in the era when VHS video tape is almost 
    virtually compatible with every vcr on the market, and cassette 
    tapes compatible with virtually every cassette player on the 
    market, that there isn't more universal compatibility between backup 
    tape media and the hardware/software it's used on.
    Who's not getting it right? Is it the tape formulae being used, or
    is it lack of good universal electronics & software implementations
    of tape backup technology?
    
    Bob

    re .500:
    
    �It seems strange in the era when VHS video tape is almost 
    �virtually compatible with every vcr on the market
    
    Not quite... you have NTSC, PAL and SECAM tapes...
    

And Beta and 8mm and...

Travan was supposed to bring compatibility, but it seems that it's imperfect.

			Steve

    re .500
    
    Try counting the video dropouts when running even a premium VHS tape
    sometime.  When you get tired counting, stop and just enjoy the movie.
    
    :)
    Tony

    >>     Not quite... you have NTSC, PAL and SECAM tapes...
    
    You missed the point of my analogy with vhs tapes and audio
    cassette tapes. Within their own purpose of use, one can
    go to a store, buy a vhs tape from almost any manufacturer, take 
    it home and use it on your home vcr, and be able to record, and
    playback video. I'm not concerned with vhs dropout in my analogy.
    The same holds true of audio cassette tapes (with the additional 
    proviso of matching silver oxide and other special tape formula's 
    with the sometimes available option switch found on some audio 
    tape machines to optimize the desired write-thru for frequency 
    response enhancement.
    With tape media used for tape backup, there are formats such as
    travan which apparently aren't as compatible from backup to backup
    units that *advertize* their alleged compatibility with a specific
    tape format. People expect that when they go into a store to buy
    a recommended tape (especially preformatted) for use on their backup 
    unit, that it will work as advertized. Such is not the case.
    
    Bob

    re: last few
    
    Well, there's one digital data tape medium that seems to offer
    universal compatibility as defined by .504.
    
    4mm
    
    /Bill

    re .504: The VHS media are compatible (apart from playing times
    indicated), but when I've "backed up" a TV show for you here (in
    Europe), it won't be easy for you to watch it in the US. (I'm not the
    one who brought up dropouts... :-)
    
    This is clearly analogous to software incompatibility, which you
    mentioned in .5000.
    
    

    RE: .506
    
    Sorry, I was speaking with reference to my own experiences
    here is the US, that is, that I can go to a store buy a tape,
    record it, and play it back on a machine connected to a TV
    set made to view American television format. I was not implying
    a universal compatibility as in a universal tv format world-wide
    (as we know does not yet exist).
    Yes, I know you didn't mention dropouts. I neglected to reference
    one of the follow-on replies. Sorry.
    But I think you probably do understand what I was driving at.
    Suffice it to say, that we should all write to the manufacturers
    of tape, backups and their software partners, and ask that they
    get their act together, otherwise their products will be replaced
    on the shelves with something that does function as advertized.
    Not buying their products is of course another way to tell mfg'rs
    that their products aren't functioning as they advertize them.
    
    
    Bob

        I have the Exabyte 96 and got the Verbatim MC3020Extra tapes also.
    I have done a few backups and a restore ( just for tests ) and all
    worked fine. I also used the Seagate software. I tried the Novastore
    backup program with this setup and did have problems. I have the 
    special card that came with the unit installed also. 

    Bob

    > (I'm not the
    >one who brought up dropouts... :-)
    
    I did, in reference to the preceeding notes on errors -- correctable
    and not.
    
    Tony
    
    

    The best solution I've found so far is 4mm based. Almost all of the 4mm
    drives are compatible at each technology level (DDS-1,2,and 3). A DDS-1
    tape without compression is universally interchangeable in the PC
    environment (be sure -not- to use any Software compression - those are
    all different! Hardware compression, done in the drive, is OK if all
    the target drives have compression HW).
    
    For SW, Seagate Backup for '95 uses Microsoft Tape Format (MTF), and is 
    compatible with NT Backup (which was based on Arcada, now Seagate).
    I use this for moving files back and forth from home to work, etc, all
    the time.
    
    For non-PC O/S's, use one of the many versions of tar written for PC's
    to generate an interchangeable tape format. Both Unix and OpenVMS can 
    deal with tar format (with an add-in in the OpenVMS case, but it does
    work...)
    
    I've found nothing else affordable that has full multiplatform support.
    DLT has the support, but tends to cost more than the PC. QIC has always
    had too many variations to suit me...
    
    Chris
    

DDS-1 certainly is handy in that respect, and the MS psuedo-standard format
(MTF) is a winner.  I've been able to trade tapes between Backup/Exec on
W95 and NT Backup.

Only two problems:

1) The drives cost a bloody fortune, even in comparison to high-end SCSI
QIC drives (such as the 3080 and TR-4 variants that are comparable in
speed and capacity to DAT).

2) The media tend to be a lot more delicate than QIC-Wide.  I've never had
to throw out a 3080 tape (2/4GB).  I've had to throw out quite a few DAT
tapes for excessive dropouts and tape curl.  I guess not too surprising
because the DAT is trying to put a lot more data into a smaller space,
using a more complex read/write assembly.

Re: (several back regarding VHS tapes)

Sorry to inform you that I put a cheap VHS cassette into my expensive
VCR. The tape wound itself around the capstan and it was an expensive repair
job it get it out of there. The shop told me I was not supposed to
put "unqualified" (read cheap) tapes in that vcr.

Dave

    DDS-1 drives are available for a few hundred dollars on the street, at
    least around here. While the QIC drives are a lot cheaper, they are not
    supported on as many systems....
    
    Unfortunately, it costs to do it right.
    
    BTW, I've thrown out lots of DAT tapes... but they are cheap enough
    that I don't really care. Properly cared for, they should last quite a
    while. There is a 2000 pass spec life on the media - with loads and
    repositions, that translates to 50-100 uses/tape (usually more on a
    PC). Cheap media, and not having to format it, offset the costs of the
    drive in many cases.
    
    I will admit to some bias here - I brought DAT drives into Digital...
    YMMV....
    
    Chris
    

    RE: .512
    
    >Re: (several back regarding VHS tapes)
    
    >Sorry to inform you that I put a cheap VHS cassette into my expensive
    >VCR. The tape wound itself around the capstan and it was an expensive repair
    >job it get it out of there. The shop told me I was not supposed to
    >put "unqualified" (read cheap) tapes in that vcr.
    
    Well, what can I say. I don't go out and buy "cheap" drug store
    VHS tapes.
    Basically, you got what you paid for <unfortunately>.
    
    Back in the "good old days" when vinyl was still the audio medium
    to buy, most people didn't go out and buy "cheap" stylus's for their
    expensive turntables. They bought something that wasn't going to
    turn their record collection after the first play into a worthless
    piece of plastic.
    
    Bob

    re .514
    
    That spin on it sounds a bit harsh.  I don't think it is all that
    unreasonable to infer that "branding" with something like "VHS" would
    imply some standard of compatibility, likewise for something like TR-1
    tapes.  But, yes, realizing the realities, the cheap stuff is usually
    no bargain.
    
    Tony
    

    What...I was driving home is that based on what one pays
    for in comparable price, one expects comparable quality.
    So if one buys cheap TR-1 tapes *or* cheap VHS tapes, one
    is usually going to basically get what they paid for.
    Urgo, my earlier replies about buying VHS tapes <of implied
    comparable price>, one should expect comparable quality.
    How difficult is it to grasp that? Compatibility is different
    from comparable. Comparable, in my book implies an already
    established level of compatibility. IE: Given the presumed
    established baseline of compatibility, one expects for the money
    comparable quality in use.
    
    Bob

    re .516
    
    Didn't get a valentine today, did'ya.  Not to worry, I didn't either.
    Seriously -- It's safe to assume that everyone here is above the U.S.
    mean for intelligence.  Personally, my only problem is in communicating
    it.
    
    Everything you said is fine.  I would simply catagorize a tape
    cartridge that results in tape tangled around a head (assuming a good
    transport mechanism) as having a compatibility problem (from your
    description) if it is marketed as a VHS tape.
    
    Tony

    >Everything you said is fine.  I would simply catagorize a tape
    >cartridge that results in tape tangled around a head (assuming a good
    >transport mechanism) as having a compatibility problem (from your
    >description) if it is marketed as a VHS tape.
    
    Ok, I guess we can get a few more replies out of this before the
    mod locks this one. :-) Yes I did get a valentine. :-)
    A tape mangled around a head (or capstan as the original post
    had said), does not imply to me a *compatibility* problem. Rather
    it implies a quality problem with the tape, or possibly very
    remotely, a problem with the maintenance of the tape machine in
    keeping the capstan's and head clean and free of excessive tape
    residue. I'd largely favor the possibility of poor quality cheap
    tape used in an otherwise mechanically *compatible* VHS tape
    cartridge housing over the possibility of dirty transport mechanism.
    Especially if other better quality tapes work just fine. Now the same 
    analogy would hold true for the equivalents of tapes for backup use 
    <surprise we should get back to our original thread>. :-)
    
    Bob

Re: Cheap DATs

Yeah, DDS-1 tapes are cheap.  Then you get into the DDS-2 drives and the
120M.  This is a distinctly not-cheap tape, and the size that I've had the
most trouble with (tape curling).  I do have problems throwing away a
$25-30 tape, especially when I'm trying to live on a student's budget.

Re: QIC compatibility

Actually QIC-Wide drives are compatible with just about everything,
assuming you buy it in SCSI form.  Right now, CorpSys is just about giving
away 2/4GB SCSI QIC-Wide drives.

Yes, it's nice when it's done right, and DAT drives certainly have no
corner on that market.

I was at storage training a couple of weeks back, and was told that AIT
technology looming on the horizon, is likely to replace existing DAT
(4mm and 8mm) technology.  Developed by Sony, it was described to us
as "8mm done right".

    I don't expect AIT to replace DAT (4mm) - it's a little expensive for
    that. It will likely dig into the higher end DAT space, and will erode
    the Exabyte 8mm market, and possibly the DLT market.
    
    The Exabyte 8mm cannot be -ever- described as DAT... it is a totally
    different technology... with an entirely different set of problems.
    
    Chris
    

    BTW,...
    
    I couldn't find a reasonably priced alternative to the Exabyte Eagle 96
    drive, so I went back and bought another one last night@ COMPUSA in 
    Woburn , MA (nashua NH has none left ) for $79 (was $99 when I bought
    it last week ). I bought the drive and a blank tape for ~$110.
    Got home at 17:45- put card / drive in and rebooted - all OK. I 
    still had the SW installed from last attempt, so I started backup
    at 18:05 :: it started moving tape !! Backed up 775MB in about 45 
    minutes. Looks good !
    Woburn had about 15 drives left. When they're gone-- that's it.
    The new model (Eagle plus) is about $139 : has bracket to slide drive
    in/out so can transport between systems. Great if you need it but
    I don't.
    
    
    

    Can anyone recommend backup software that will backup network drives?
    
    I've got two systems, both with ethernet cards, networked together
    under Windows 95.  One system has a Colorado 250 tape drive, and I'd
    like to use it to backup the other system.
    
    The "default" windows backup software starts to work, but errors out
    and locks up about 50-100 files into the backup.
    
    Thanks,
    Steve
    

    I assume that normal network access between the two systems works
    without locking up?
    
    Seagate Backup Exec (n�e Arcada Backup) seems to work pretty well.
    I've used the NT version to back up to an NT system over a local
    network; can't say for certain if I've tried network backup using
    the W95 version, though.

    Yes, the network is fine.  Never as much as a hickup.
    
    And when I back-up local drives, it has no problem.
    
    But when I backup network drives, it hangs part way through.
    
    -Steve
    

    Exabyte claims to be makjing Direct-Tape-Access software available as a
    free upgrade for registered Eagle users. Then the drive will appear to
    be a drive letter just like a disk.
    
    Mark

Seagate already has this and so do I.

	mikeP

    I spoke to their product manager this past week. I met him at a trade
    show and followed-up with him when I got back to the office.
    
    I'd like you know more when I hear.
    
    
    Mark

    RE: -.2
    
    But seagate DTA is about $75, Exabyte's is FREE to registered users!
    
    8-)
    
    Mark

Not sure, but I think HP/Colorado offers a little program to do this for
their tape drives too.

    re .531
    
    Yes, HP/Colorado wants $20 for it, last I looked.

You can get Tape-It Lite from the Imation web site at
http://www.imation.com/dsp/travan/tape-it/form.html.
They list the Exabyte Eagle as a supported drive.

Jeff

>	They list the Exabyte Eagle as a supported drive.

	But not the non-Travan Eagle 96. The HP Jumbo 1400 is certified, and
	since this is also a QIC-3020 drive, it might work.

Larry

	In case anyone else wants to try...

	I installed Tape-It Lite on my machine (Win95 OSR2, Cyrix P166+,
	Eagle 96 tape drive) and it hosed Win95. After running setup, the
	PC wouldn't finish booting into Windows. Right after the wallpaper
	is displayed and before the login dialog box, it would hang.

	After I rebooted in safe mode and uninstalled Tape-It Lite, the
	system booted normally.

	If anyone has been to the Woburn store in the last couple of days,
	did they have any $79.95 Eagle 96 drives left?

Larry

    The Seagate Backup V2.0 upgrades have been shipping for a week or so
    now. It seems to work well. The Stand-alone restore stuff works, also,
    which is a treat (and the reason I wanted it!). R/W compatibility with
    WINNT tapes, can write backups to files, JAZ drives, etc, in addition
    to tapes.
    
    It does, however, need you to provide the DOS ASPI drivers for whatever
    SCSI controller you have for the stand-alone restore floppy to work.
    They don't tell you this until you try to create the restore floppy.
    
    They've moved the registry check box to a sub menu deep in the options
    lists... and if you don't find it  and check it, the restore is kind of
    useless.
    
    Also, still no control of HW compression. However, inspecting Win95
    OSR2, there is a check box for HW compression in the device entry for
    the tape drive, under the HW manager. I have not seen this in standard
    Win95.
    
    Fairly well done, all in all.
    
    Chris
    
    
    

    re .535 ....
    
    Larry,
    
    I was there (Woburn,MA) this weekend checking and NO: there are no 
    Eagle 96 drives left. Only $199 tape drives (new Exabyte model or Iomega).
    
    Bob
    

	Thanks, Bob. Oh, well.

	The CompUSA in Nashua has (had?) one Eagle Nest TR-3 drive for $129.99
	yesterday and several bare Eagle TR-3 drives for $189.99. Nothing extra
	off with the DIGITAL discount on the Nest drive and I didn't ask about
	the bare drive.

Larry

    Has anyone played with the Sony SDT9000?  DDS-3 apparently.
    
    /Bill

    I'd sure like to hear about it.
    
    I've heard that unlike other Sony products, it has a life expectancy of
    over a year.  It's also supposed to be faster than snot (>90MB/minute).

    re .539,540
    
    	I have a DEC TLZ10 ( Sony SDT-9000 with DEC firmware ). I'm
    currently working on a Windows NT 4mm driver upgrade that will
    support this drive. I don't have a working driver yet so I can't
    tell you much yet. I'll have more to say in a week.
    
    
    			Steve P.
    

    re .479 - Free Sony 2120 tapes
    
    In the last 2 days I received all of my rebate checks from Sony!
    So, it took about 10 weeks for the rebate, but heck, not a bad
    deal.  They borrowed my $14 for 10 weeks and I got 2 tapes!
    
    The rebate coupons are good till October, I believe.  And it looks like
    the regular cost of the 2120 2-packs are $14.  I don't know if there
    are still any rebate coupons in the shelf though...
    
    Cheers,
    jeff