Conference cookie::folk_music

Congradulations on your new acquisition!!  I agree with you on the prices
at the Music Emporium,,, I bought an HD28 there eight years ago and I
have never regretted it.   Also,,, if your ever in the Nazareth PA area, make
sure you take a trip through the factory.  I just got back last week from
doing so (for the third time) and was quite surprised in how much change
is taking place in the manufacturing process over my first vist five years
ago.   I met Chris Martin and got an autograph label to stick on the inside
of my D28.  

Bruce May

    RE: .0
    
    Basically, if you don't get 40% off list on a new, regular production 
    Martin, go somewhere else (unless you really feel compelled to support 
    a particular dealer). 
    
    In regard, to the guitar designed for women, it is one of this year's
    special editions: the OO-16DB.  It is OO-sized, but with dreadnaught 
    depth ("deep body").  The goal was to create a smaller guitar with a
    big sound.  As far as the guitar being light, I don't believe it was a
    design goal.  Martin built several prototypes, and it was felt that the
    mahogany model worked best in this design.  Mahogany is a lot lighter
    than rosewood, so you get light weight as an added bonus. Check
    www.mguitar.com for more details on this year's special editions.
    
    Jim

    
    
    I paid $1495 for a new OM21 Martin. They list for $2100 at most stores
    and in the Martin catalog.  Thats the best price I could find anywhere
    for that model.  Solid rosewood with spruce top and mahogany neck.
    The sound is extremely good for a non dreadnaught type. Bright and
    balanced. I'm very pleased.   
    Martins bottom line of guitars now have laminated sides and back.
    I was surprised to hear this!  I played one and it also has great
    sound.  
                                         Bill

    Congrats on the OM-21.  It's a great guitar.  The OM is considered by
    many to be the quitessential fingerpicker's guitar.  I have the OM-28,
    which is like your OM-21, but has an ebony fretboard (the 21 has
    rosewood), and a bit fancier trim (multi-pli binding and larger dot 
    inlays).  
    
    The OM line was developed by Martin in the late 20's or early 30's,
    in response to a request from a former tenor banjo player named Perry
    Bechtel (Jazz/Dixieland bands at the time were moving from banjo to
    guitar-- usually archtops.  Mr. Bechtel already had a Gibson L5 archtop
    and thought a flattop instrument would have a mellower sound).  The OM
    was significant in that it was the first Martin to have 14 frets clear
    of the neck.  OM stands for "Orchestra Model"-- indicating its original
    focus as a guitar for jazz orchestras (where it never really caught
    on).  The original OMs had banjo-style planetary tuners.  
    
    If the OM was not particularly successful as a jazz guitar, the 14 fret
    neck was very popular with other customers, so within a few years
    Martin revised almost all of its products to have 14 frets clear of the
    neck.  The newer designs had narrower string spacing than the OMs
    (which were already narrower than the old 12-fret designs).  The OMs
    were dropped in favor of the redesigned OOO series, which had the same
    body dimensions, but a shorter scale length and narrower string
    spacing.  In the years that followed, the dreadnaught dominated
    Martin's sales.
    
    In the 70s the OM was "rediscovered" by a number of fingerstyle
    guitarists who felt that the wider string spacing was ideal for
    fingerstyle technique, that the smaller (by dreadnaught standards)
    body size had a better balanced (less bass heavy) sound, and felt 
    that the longer scale length gave the guitar an added punch (compared
    to the OOO-28) that they liked.  A number of smaller builders
    started building OM clones, and Martin followed suit.  The OM-21,
    OM-28, and OM-45 in various forms have appeared as special editions and
    regular models over the last 20 years.  The current production models
    are the OM-21 and the OM-28VR (vintage recreation). 
    
    Re: discounts
    I payed $1800 for the OM-28, which at at the listed for $2850
    (about 37% off) from Elderly Instruments in Lansing, MI (they normally
    discount @40%, but the OM-28 was not a regular production guitar
    which means they had to put money down to get one built).  I
    also have an HD-28 that I bought at 40% off from Wildwood Music in
    Coshocton, Ohio.  Both places generally have new Martins at 40% off,
    with no haggling.  I'm lucky to have two big mail order dealers within
    a reasonable driving distance to me.
    
    Re: laminated Martins
    Martin's 1-series guitars are either laminted backs and sides (DM, D1R,
    D2R, D3R) or laminated sides and solid back (D1, OO-1, OOO-1).  Martin
    decided a couple of years ago that as tonewood supplies continue to
    dwindle, that they might eventually have no other choice but to use 
    laminate woods, so they might as well learn how now.  The 1-line was
    originally intended as a replacement for the Shenendoa (sp?) series,
    but Martin was so pleased with the results that they decided to label
    them as Martins.  In addition to the use of laminates, there are a
    number of design changes geared toward lowering manufacturing costs
    (different neck attachment, different bridge design, different
    bracing).  Martin uses the same manufacturing techniques in the 16 &
    "special 16" series of guitars-- Martin's lowest cost all solid wood
    instruments.  I played a SPOOO-1CTR (OOO size, rosewood, cutaway) the
    other day and was very impressed.  FWIW, a Martin D1 took top honors 
    in a recent Acoustic Guitar magazine comparison of low-cost solid wood
    (or mostly solid wood) guitars.
    
    Anyway, enjoy your new guitar.  The more you play it, the better it
    will sound (not to mention, the better you'll play).  Buying the HD-28
    (my first Martin) was the best thing that could have ever happened to 
    my  guitar playing.  I loved the sound, so I played more often.
    
    Jim (a very happy Martin Owner)

    
    
    Thanks Jim for the info.   I plan on visiting the Martin factory in
    Pensylvania this summer.  I own two other Martins, an 0028 very small
    body -parlor- guitar, I purchased in 1961 and an Indian rosewood D28
    I purchased 12 years ago, both were second hand.
    Both also have mucho hrs of use as I've played in several bands down 
    thru the years. I enjoy switching between them for a different sound.
    I've wanted an OM for many years now but the original ones -1930
    vintage-  are now too pricy to even consider so when Martin started
    remaking them I purchased one.  So what if my house needs a new roof!
    We have our prioritys. 
                                             Bill

    >>I own two other Martins, an 0028 very small
    >>    body -parlor- guitar,
    
    Gee, I'm jelous.  I'd love a Brazilian rosewood OO.  I'm not sure I'd
    call the OO a parlor guitar, though.  It may be quite small by today's
    standards, but it was considered quite large during the parlor guitar
    days (hence the "Grand Concert" label that Martin gave it).  When I
    think of a parlor guitar, I think of the old (gut strung) 1-5 size
    Martins, and the similar-sized old Washburns.  Guitars with about
    12" lower bouts.... Anyway, when the OO was introduced, it was the 
    largest guitar Martin had ever made!
    
    In addition to my OM-28 and the HD-28 mentioned in my earlier note,
    I also have a D-16H, which I bought used.  The two dreadnaughts are
    both '91s and the OM is from '94.
    
    The original OMs certainly are pricey.  An OM-18 will probably bring in
    $4-5K or more; a vintage OM-28 is probably worth at least $20K.  I
    recently read (can't remember the source) about an original OM-45 (may
    be it was an SOM-45) going for over $140K!!!!
    
    Just curious... Did you try out the OM-28VR?  I'd trade my OM-28 on one
    of these in an instant if it didn't have that vintage-accurate (but not
    to my liking) v-shaped neck.  I love the herringbone binding and
    diamonds and squares inlay, but I also much prefer the current 
    low-profile neck.
    
    Jim

    
    Jim,
    
    I have a 1961 Martin 018, not an 0018.  It has the small body mahogany
    back and sides, sitka spruce soundboard and rosewood fingerboard.
    It's been to a lot of parties and music gatherings. Held up very well
    considering the use it's had.
    It needs some new frets and a new saddle now.
    I'm taking it in for repair soon, would'nt part with it for anything 
     -well maybe a brazilion D28 or OM-  
    No I never tried the OM 21VR with the V neck.  I'll have to check that
    out.  When I was shopping for a guitar the Emporium had a 1946 000??
    that I liked but the price was $3500, way beyond my financial means.
    It was gone the next week.  It would have been a good investment with
    an appreciating value and a joy to play.
    
                                              Bill
     

    
    Can I join the discussion here?
    
    My first visit to the Music Emporium was in 1980.  The new
    location is certainly more spacious, but I miss the "charm"
    of Porter Square.  Top notch inventory, though, and great
    folks.
    
    I'm also a fan of the OM body style.  I have a Santa Cruz
    mahogany OM that I bought at Mandolin Brothers a few
    years ago.  I like to say that I couldn't afford an old
    Martin OM, so I had to buy a new clone.  Though I do
    also have a Martin M36 from 1981 or so.  Before the low
    profile/adjustable trussrod neck was introduced.  It's
    a good old friend.
    
    Congratulations on the new guitar, Bill.  I know how
    much fun it is to have a new instrument!
    
     -- Mike
    

    >>I have a 1961 Martin 018, not an 0018
    
    Well, an O-18 is certainly a cool guitar, too.  I would guess that a
    '61 O-18 would be a great fingerstyle blues guitar-- the combination
    of a small mahogany body with the non-scalloped-braced top would be
    about ideal.  Actually, I'm sure it would be a great guitar for a lot
    of types of music.
    
    In general, I think mahogany bodied guitars are under rated.  I love
    my D-16H (a special edition D16 (sitka top, mahogany back and sides)
    with forward shifted scalloped bracing, diamond and squares inlay, and 
    a herringbone rosette and backstrip).  Actually, given my general style
    of playing, a smaller guitar would probably be a better choice for 
    me, but this D16H really grabbed me (so I grabbed it).  FWIW, there
    seems to me to be less difference in sound between a mahogany D and OOO
    than there is between a rosewood D and OOO.
    
    Re: Santa Cruz OM
    
    SCGC certainly makes wonderful guitars.  When I was looking for an OM,
    I went to Elderly Intruments (the world's largest Martin dealer) and
    tried every OM or similar style guitar that they had: the OM-28 I
    ended up buying, a couple of OM-40LE limited editions, a Santa Cruz OM,
    A Froggy Mountain OOO, a Collings, a Bourgoeis, and a couple of Lowdens. 
    About the only one I didn't play was a custom Brazillian Rosewood Collings 
    with pearl trim (I was too afraid I might like it!).  I picked the
    Martin because I liked its sound the best.  The Santa Cruz was
    probably by second pick-- it sounded wonderful, too.  I can't say the
    Martin really sounded better-- it was more of a matter of taste.  In
    someways, the Santa Cruz was maybe a bit more refined, with a bit more
    clarity (I better stop before I drift into wine-tasting-like
    metaphors), but the Martin seemed to have a greater dynamic range, and
    a certain punchiness that I liked.
    
    I think that Santa Cruz's Archtop is one of the most beautiful guitars
    ever made.  Unfortunately it costs more than my three Martin's 
    combined. :^(
    
    Jim

    Oh, by the way, after about 20 years of production, Martin has decided
    to relable the M series as OOOO.  My guess is that with their recent
    mini-boom in OOO/OM sales, they thought the OOOO would have more market
    appeal.  I personally think that the average Martin customer is 
    familiar enough with the product line that the name is relatively
    unimportant, and changing an established product name only adds
    confusion.  But I'm not a marketing guy, so what do I know?
    
    Jim

>In general, I think mahogany bodied guitars are under rated

 I would agree, and I think this is a result of Martin's
historical preference for rosewood for it's 45-level
instruments.  

 I would say that the sound of my SCGC guitar has more
finesse than the Martin, which is nice for certain
fingerstyle playing.  The Martin has more of a bark
and a satisfying sound for flatpicking and... more
"primitive" fingerpicking styles. 

 So many great guitars out there.  Each one an 
individual, too.  I remember playing two Golden
Era D-18s that hung side-by-side in a NY
music shop.  One was just another guitar, the
other sounded great

 -- Mike.

    >The Martin has more of a bark
    >and a satisfying sound for flatpicking and... 
    ***>>>more "primitive" fingerpicking styles. <<<***
    
    YEP, that's me ;^)
    
    I'm not sure I've ever used a pick on my OM.  I don't use one that
    often on my dreadnaughts ('cept when I try to play bluegrass).  
    
    I'd certainly agree on the differences between different guitars.  I've
    played other OMs that I didn't like nearly as much as the one I bought.
    One of the reasons I've never ordered a custom one (my dream guitar--
    a Martin OM with style 41 top pearl, style 42 snowflake inlay on the 
    fretboard, CF martin logo in pearl on the peghead, gold tuners with
    ebony buttons, and no pick guard).
    
    "Finesse" is a good word.  I think the SCGC OM I played had an engleman 
    spruce top, which might explain what I perceived as reduced headroom,
    albeit with an increase in finesse.
    
    Jim

    
    You guys really know your stuff!  
    
    When I was in the market for a Martin D28 I played every D28 on the
    east coast -at least it seemed that way- untill I found one I liked.
    I've also had the same experience of playing two guitars side by side,
    same model, type and there will be a perceptible difference in the sound.
    They all sound a little different.
    
    I'm just curious about anyones opinion of laminated instruments vs solid
    wood instruments. I think we all know the worlds diminishing supply of 
    mahogony, rosewood etc will make laminate construction using those 
    woods more standard.  Maybe instruments will be constructed of 
    local woods like maple, cherry  if solid wood construction is desired. 
    
    One more question for you guitar lovers:
    Do you think the Martin competitors, Taylor, etc will have a simillar
    market impact as Martins?   That is to say, an appreciating value
    and desired as a collectable since they are well constructed and use 
    mahogany and rosewood like Martins.
    
                                   Bill
    

    re: Alternative woods
    Lot's of folks offer maple.  Taylor does.  Martin used to, but dropped
    it last year.  
    
    There are a few makers who already use cherry.  Stelling (although best
    known for banjos) was advertising a very nice looking dreadnaught with
    cherry sides and back a couple of years ago. I've played a surprisingly
    good cherry dreadnaught made by a smaller company in New York-- can't
    remember the name of the company.  Simple trim, all solid woods (spruce
    top)-- for like $650. The sound was somewhere between mahogany and
    rosewood, with more "depth" than a maple flattop.  La Si Do offers
    3-ply laminated cherry instuments under their Seagull line.
    
    Breedlove has their C5 Northwest in myrtlewood.  I've played one of
    these and it was *wonderful*.  I've also seem African blackwood guitars
    from Breedlove and a couple other smaller builders.
    
    Most Indian rosewood comes from plantations where the trees line the
    fields.  When one is harvested, a new tree is planted.  Hopefully, we
    will avoid what has happened in Brazil.
    
    Re: Taylors and collectors...
    Taylor's hold their value well.  There is some debate whether their
    bolt-on neck joint will hold up over time (on the plus side, it makes
    a neck reset much easier, though)-- some people insist the traditional
    dovetail joint is best.  There are many 100 year old Martins, but no
    100 year old Taylors, so we won't know for a while.  My guess is that
    Taylors will eventually become vintage collectables, but will probably
    not demand as quite as high prices as similarly appointed Martins of 
    comparable age, even though the Martins will probably be more readily 
    available.  Guitar collectors are a peculiar lot, and the musical value
    of the instrument is only part (sometimes a small part) of the factors
    that drive prices.
    
    The best impact Taylor has had on the market, in my opinion, is forcing
    Martin to up their quality :^)
    
    Jim

	Jim, are you aware that the new D1  series of Martins are closer to
a bolt on neck??   The are not dove tale anymore.  Also, the necks on even the 
tradional line are now shaped by a computerized machine leaving only
a final sanding step left once they come off.    Mortis and tenen (sp) is what I 
remember they called the new way the neck is attached to the body.  

Bruce

    >Jim, are you aware that the new D1  series of Martins are closer to
    >a bolt on neck??   The are not dove tale anymore.  Also, the necks on
    >even the tradional line are now shaped by a computerized machine leaving only
    >a final sanding step left once they come off.    Mortis and tenen (sp)
    >is what remember they called the new way the neck is attached to the body.
    
    Yep--  and same construction is used on the "16" series as well.
    
    In the Taylor approach, the screws actually are used to hold the
    neck on the guitar.  In the Martin approach, the screw (I think there
    is only one) is used to hold the neck in place until the glue dries
    in the mortise and tenon joint.  The mortice and tenon joint relies
    on the glue, where a dovetail joint (while still glued) does not
    really rely on the glue for strength.  At least that's how I understand
    it.
    
    The change in construction is a big part of why Martin is able to
    offer the 1 and 16 series instruments at such (by Martin standards)
    low prices.
    
    I doubt the 1 and 16 series will ever be considered collectable.
    Good guitars, though.
    
    Jim

    Just a couple of additional comments on alternative tonewoods and the
    availability of traditional tonewoods...
    
    In a Fingerstyle Guitar magazine interview a few months ago, Chris
    Martin (CEO of CF Martin) talked quite a bit about this.  One thing
    Martin is now doing is *not* rejecting tonewood because of cosmetics. 
    He specifically mentioned that they are using ebony that is not jet
    black.  Martin has explored alternative tonewoods over the years (an
    example I can think of is the ash-bodied D-16A about 8 years ago), but
    customers always want the traditional stuff.  As far as the
    cosmetics go, Chris commented that when they have evaluation workshops,
    potential customers always speak very positively about the use of
    structurally sound, but less desirably cosmetically wood, in their
    formal evaluation comments.  In informal conversations, however, the
    reaction is "I better run out and buy an HD-28 before they start using
    that ugly wood."
    
    Anyway, one of the answers to the continued availability of solid-wood
    guitars of quality tonewoods,  is our (as guitarists and customers)
    willingness to accept alternatives and different cosmetics.
    
    I believe that Gibson will be introducing a "certified" sustainable
    growth Les Paul (all wood from sustainable growth sources) in the next
    year.  I think Martin and Taylor are investigating sustainable growth
    models as well.
    
    Jim

    
    RE:17
    
    Thats pretty interesting stuff about guitar woods.  I'll have to see if
    I can locate that article in fingerstyle magazine.
    When I looked at the new Martin laminated d1 guitars I noticed that
    the sound board had some wood grain irregularities.  The sound of the 
    D1 was extremely good. 
    I talked to Chris Martin a few years ago about guitar woods. He was 
    visiting Fiddlers Fix in Jafrey NH -now in Dublin NH-.
    He said that the future guitars may have synthetic woods as the 
    supply of exotic woods diminishes.  Is it the ovation that has a 
    synthetic body? 
    Anyway I love the new Martin OM21 I purchased and can't wait to get
    home to play it.
                                           Bill

    re: "wood grain irregularities"
    "bear claws" are a type of irregularity that occurs in spruce (I think 
    the term comes from imagining the irregularity as caused by a bear
    scratching the tree).  My understanding is that the growing conditions 
    that tend to produce bear claws are also the conditions that produce
    great sounding tops.  So some folks hold a "bear claw" top in high
    regard (I personally don't like them that much from a cosmetics
    standpoint, but they have grown on me a little over the years).  Martin
    offered a bookmatched bear-claw D-45 (or similarly fancy dreadnaught) a
    few years ago as a special edition.  Dana Bourgeois often builds with
    bear claw spruce.
    
    
    re: Ovations
    Ovations have a synthetic material (their trade name is "lyrechord,"
    I believe) for the bowl-shaped back.  The actual material is similar
    (if not identical) to composites that Kaman (the company that owns
    Ovation) uses in manufacturing helicopters.  Some Ovations have
    traditional top woods (i.e. spruce), while others have a
    graphite/composite top and bracing.  I used to have an Applause
    (ovation's budget line) that had the lyrechord back, a graphite top
    and bracing, and a neck and fretboard made out of aluminum with the
    back covered with phenolic resin.  The only wood on the whole guitar
    was the rosewood bridge.
    
    Rainsong, a company in Hawaii, has an entire product line of guitars
    made from graphite-based composites.
    
    Jim

RE: 18	

> I talked to Chris Martin a few years ago about guitar woods. He was 
>   visiting Fiddlers Fix in Jafrey NH -now in Dublin NH-.

 I just moved up to NH a few months ago.  I found Fiddler's
Choice music shop upstairs from DelRossi's in Dublin.  I
visited on a Sunday afternoon.  Steve Jones (chef at DelRossi's
and a fine clawhammer player) opened the shop up and let
us poke around. Neat place, nice folks.

RE: 19

 There is a local builder, Bill Cumpiano in MA that works
with graphite composites as well.  I've never had the
opportunity to play anything but wooden guitars   8-)
Bill's a smart guy and if he thinks that it works, I'll
bet it does!

RE: 16

  I'm kinda bugged by the idea of bolt-on necks.  Taylor
did this, clearly, to optimize and streamline the production
and support process.  Martin gave in to market pressure, IMO.
If Martin thought it was a good idea for any other reason,
I'm sure they would have implemented sooner.

  And while I'm at it, let me flame about adjustable truss
rods...  ;-)

  -- Mike "dovetail" Neverisky

re:. 20

> There is a local builder, Bill Cumpiano in MA that works
>with graphite composites as well.  I've never had the
>opportunity to play anything but wooden guitars   8-)
>Bill's a smart guy and if he thinks that it works, I'll
>bet it does!
.
.
.
>  I'm kinda bugged by the idea of bolt-on necks.  Taylor
>did this, clearly, to optimize and streamline the production
>and support process.  Martin gave in to market pressure, IMO.
>If Martin thought it was a good idea for any other reason,
>I'm sure they would have implemented sooner.

Hmmm, Bill Cumpiano isn't necessarily wedded to dovetailed neck
joints.  He's been known to used pinned mortise-and-tenon joints
instead (check out his book with Natelson, "Guitarmaking -- Tradition
and Technology").

>  And while I'm at it, let me flame about adjustable truss
>rods...  ;-)

Now I *know* you're just trying to stir up trouble! :-)

-Hal

    RE artificial materials and Ovations ...
    
    For whatever reason, I've never yet heard an acoustic Ovation that
    didn't sound basically awful. (I had a solid body electric Ovation
    once that I liked, but never I really learned to play electric.)
    
    Not a bad guitar if pounding tent pegs is more important than
    playing music, though.

    RE: Ovations
    
    I wouldn't go so far as to say that they sound awful, but it's not a
    sound I particularly like, either.
    
    Jim
    

    A lot of people put pickups in their acoustics, and I've yet to hear
    one of those that sounds good, but for a professional player they're
    practically a requirement. Perhaps for Adrian Legg, durability takes
    precedence. I'd trust a dropped Ovation over a dropped Martin any
    day...

    
    RE:20
    
    I meant to say Fiddlers Choice in Dublin NH, not FIddlers Fix.
    
    The're awfully good people out there in Dublin NH so if anyone 
    wants to visit, they have a good selection of instruments.
    I'm sure their prices can be adjusted for a serious buyer.
    
    You can schedule a dinner in their restaurant and see some hot 
    bands -like Granite Grass- after the meal.
    
                                    Bill 

Well my shopping for a new OM style guitar has led me to the Luthiers Workshop in Waltham
Mass.  Starting next month a am taking a course to build my own (From a Martin Kit).  It isn't
going to save me any money but I am hoping to get one hell of and education from the process
and will hopefully end up with a nice sounding guitar.   

Bruce May  

    
    Bruce,
    
    Will you be studying under Tom Knat at the luthiers Workshop?
    
    If so you are very lucky. He is one of the best.
    
    I did the same thing many years ago and it was one of the best of my
    lifes experiences.  I built my own guitar and I still have it today.
    I learned to appreciate different types of wood how instruments are 
    put together and met some interesting people.
    A real positive experience for me.
    
    Good luck!                  Bill 

Hi Bill
	Yes Tom Knat is still there and to the best of my knowledge is still
conducting the one week classes.   I am still awaiting confirmation for this years
weekly class and if I am not able to attend because of overbooking,  I plan on
taking the Thursday evening class starting in August.    

	I am glad to hear testimonial as to Tom's skill level and I am really
looking forward to it.

Bruce