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Conference noted::decnis

Title: DEC Network Integration Server (DECNIS)
Notice:Please read note 1 to use this conference effectively
Moderator:MARVIN::WELCH
Created:Wed Sep 18 1991
Last Modified:Thu Jun 05 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:3660
Total number of notes:15082

3526.0. "Backup ISDN in one to many config ?'s" by OHFSS1::MALOTT (Lost in a Maze of DecNis') Thu Jan 30 1997 16:40

    I am about to implement Dial Backup on the Decnis.  Our config will be
    of the hub type config (ie 1 to many) as follows;
    
    
                            |--------------|
                            |    Mar52b    |------------ Hubsite LAN
                            |--------------|
                              |          |
                              |          |
                            (---)      |---| 
            Frame Rel.Cloud (---)      |---| ISDN Access T.A. 
                            | | |      | | |
                           /  |  \    /   \ \
                          /   |   \ |-|TA |  \
                         /    |    \/     |   \
                        /    /  |------|  |    \
                       /     |  |Uer52a|  |     \
                       |     |  |------|  |      |
                        \     \          /      /
                         \     \       |-|TA   /
                          \     \      /      /
                           \    |------|     /
                            \   |Udr52a|    /
                             \  |------|   /
                              \           /
                               \        |-| ISDN Access TA
                                \       /
                                |------|
                                |Uvr52a|
                                |------|
    
    Hope this drawing is adequate.  All nodes are Nis's.  600 on Hub site side,
    500' elsewhere.  500's will use w622, 600 will use w618.  I would like
    to set up one ISDN port at hub site side and one at each site.  If the site
    looses its Frame Circ adjacency, then raise DTR and TA at each site
    will initiate ISDN call.
    
    
    My problem is the hub side.  My questions are:
    
    1.  Should I set up supervisor group on hub site side to prevent the router
    from continuously trying to bring up an adjacency and thus filling our
    event log?
    
    2.  If so, can I specify MANY primary circuits on the hub site side in
    the same supervisor group?  
    (ie NCL> set super group GRPNAME primaries {Circ1,Circ2,Circ3..})
    The version 3.1 Management manual calls this "primaries", but then all
    description(s) are then singular.
    
    Any help(input) appreciated...
    
    Best Regards,
    
    John  Malott
    
                
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
3526.1Please AssistOHFSS1::MALOTTLost in a Maze of DecNis'Thu Feb 06 1997 07:243
    Can anyone assist...please help.
    
    John Malott
3526.2mgb.rkg.dec.com::GILLOTTMark Gillott, 831-3172 (rkg)Thu Feb 06 1997 08:2731
�     1.  Should I set up supervisor group on hub site side to prevent the router
�     from continuously trying to bring up an adjacency and thus filling our
�     event log?

Not sure  what  you  mean.  So do you "normally" run PPP/FR circuits as your
primaries  and want to bring up the ISDN TA whenever the one or other of the
primaries  fail?.  Where you put the backup group depends on how you want to
handle  the  recovery.   Do you want the "remote" (hub) sites to perform the
failover  as required or do you want it controlled by the "central" site.  I
guess you could do both!. 

�     2.  If so, can I specify MANY primary circuits on the hub site side in
�     the same supervisor group?  
�     (ie NCL> set super group GRPNAME primaries {Circ1,Circ2,Circ3..})
�     The version 3.1 Management manual calls this "primaries", but then all
�     description(s) are then singular.

When we  did the original design, we thought that it would be a good idea to
have  multiple  primaries  in  a  single group - if any one of the primaries
fails,  bring up one (or more) secondaries.  But it got horribly complicated
so we simplified the architecture and only allowed a single primary. 

Are you  saying  you  want  to  have multiple primaries failover to the same
secondary?.   If  so  then  just create multiple backup groups each with the
different primary but the same secondary - the ISDN TA link. 

My only  concern over all this is do we support backup groups using PPP over
FR (its been a long time since I did any DECNIS work). 

Mark
3526.3Clarifications & more questionsOHFSS1::MALOTTLost in a Maze of DecNis'Fri Feb 07 1997 13:0168
    Mark,
    
    First of all, Thank you for your help.
    
    Second,
    
    We have a large Global network, made up of mostly (vast majority) 
    Decnis'.  Much of the design here is of the 'one central site Frame 
    connection to many smaller sites Frame'.  The central site having a 
    large Access port and each small site having smaller access port(s).
    
    Many of these small sites have 'redundant' Frame PVC's to different
    routers at the Central site.  One PVC serving as a primary, and the 
    other as a backup.  Our customer wishes to employee an ISDN dialout
    backup for these circuits.  I see several problems with their design
    and fitting dialout backup into the scheme.  
    
    1.  Obviously, dialing the ISDN backup if only one of the Frame 
    circuits is still active is a costly idea.  Thus, I am looking to 
    implement ISDN dialout ONLY when BOTH Frame circuits are down.
    Also, 'Chaining' circuits does not appear to be a good solution
    either, since the first secondary would need to be 'down' until
    needed.  Therefore, the customer would be paying for a Frame 
    circuit that wasn't active.  If they are paying for the service
    it is best to have the adjacency already there and ready for use.
    
    2.  As you have questioned as well, 'can we do backup circuits on
    Frame PPP links'.  This is another question I have.
    The manual (ver 3.1 Decnis mgmt) indicates PPP are OK, but nothing 
    about Frame.  However, as I have stated, I only wish to utilize the
    dialout backup, if both PVC's are down (in some cases one PVC on
    sites that only have one).  I do not wish to use the Frame as backup,
    only primary, therefore, I would think it would not be an issue, since
    I won't be dealing with the Frame modem connection etc, as with the 
    backup circuit (ie disable Modem connect line and routing circuit).
    
    3.  I think you have answered one of my questions partially, that being 
    the multiple primary question.  I guess I could have more than one
    group
    and point each one to the same secondary.  But, I wanted to have a 
    secondary at each side (small site and central site).  The small site
    would initiate the call (ISDN TA) by raising DTR to its TA and the 
    adapter handles the dialout.  The Central site would have a group
    for each small site (as you suggested).  DTR would be raised at the 
    Central sitedue to loss of adjacency to small site and the port to the
    TA would then simply be enabled.  My idea here is to not have an
    enabled
    circuit sitting there all the time trying to come up.  However, I am 
    limited to 1 port (at central site) for a 'group' of small sites.
    Thus, if more than one adjacency is lost then only one could get in.
    Would this cause any internal problems with the Central site Decnis
    by trying to raise DTR to enable a secondary circuit if it is already
    in use (due to a competing small site already grabbing it)?  And, 
    once a secondary circuit is enabled, how long will it remain enabled 
    even if adjacency is notcreated right away?
    
    Am I limited to having an HDLC type circuit always enabled at the 
    Central site for use by small sites if their Frame fails and dialout is
    required.  In this case, no backup circuits would be needed at the 
    Central site.
    
    Thank you in advance for your efforts...
    
    Best Regards,
    
    John Malott
    NSIS   
      
3526.4mgb.rkg.dec.com::GILLOTTMark Gillott, 831-3172 (rkg)Mon Feb 10 1997 08:3457
�     2.  As you have questioned as well, 'can we do backup circuits on
�     Frame PPP links'.  This is another question I have.
�     The manual (ver 3.1 Decnis mgmt) indicates PPP are OK, but nothing 
�     about Frame.  However, as I have stated, I only wish to utilize the
�     dialout backup, if both PVC's are down (in some cases one PVC on
�     sites that only have one).  I do not wish to use the Frame as backup,
�     only primary, therefore, I would think it would not be an issue, since
�     I won't be dealing with the Frame modem connection etc, as with the 
�     backup circuit (ie disable Modem connect line and routing circuit).

I don't know for sure but I think we do support PPP/FR as a *primary* link -
PPP is PPP regardless of the supporting "wire". 

�     3.  I think you have answered one of my questions partially, that being 
�     the multiple primary question.  I guess I could have more than one
�     group
�     and point each one to the same secondary.  But, I wanted to have a 
�     secondary at each side (small site and central site).  The small site
�     would initiate the call (ISDN TA) by raising DTR to its TA and the 
�     adapter handles the dialout.  The Central site would have a group
�     for each small site (as you suggested).  DTR would be raised at the 
�     Central sitedue to loss of adjacency to small site and the port to the
�     TA would then simply be enabled.  My idea here is to not have an
�     enabled
�     circuit sitting there all the time trying to come up.  However, I am 

By having  a backup group at both remote and central sites you will create a
management  problem.   Why  not  just  have  the  backup *initiated* by (and
defined at) the remote sites?.  Configure the central DECNIS with a PPP/HDLC
circuit  thats  enabled and ready, but attached to the TA.  When the inbound
"call"  arrives  from  the  remote  site the circuit will simply spring into
life.   You need to have a TA that can be configured as a "passive" box, ie.
it does not make a call on DTR, it simply waits for an inbound call. 

�     limited to 1 port (at central site) for a 'group' of small sites.
�     Thus, if more than one adjacency is lost then only one could get in.
�     Would this cause any internal problems with the Central site Decnis
�     by trying to raise DTR to enable a secondary circuit if it is already
�     in use (due to a competing small site already grabbing it)?  And, 
�     once a secondary circuit is enabled, how long will it remain enabled 
�     even if adjacency is notcreated right away?

If you  have  the backup only operate in one direction - remote=>central - I
think you avoid the problem. 

�     Am I limited to having an HDLC type circuit always enabled at the 
�     Central site for use by small sites if their Frame fails and dialout is
�     required.  In this case, no backup circuits would be needed at the 
�     Central site.
     
Not sure I understand this. 

There is not much you can do about the problem of have two (or more) primary
links  and only having the secondary active once all the primaries are dead.
This will require a change to the way backup groups operate.

Mark