[Search for users] [Overall Top Noters] [List of all Conferences] [Download this site]

Conference netcad::hub_mgnt

Title:DEChub/HUBwatch/PROBEwatch CONFERENCE
Notice:Firmware -2, Doc -3, Power -4, HW kits -5, firm load -6&7
Moderator:NETCAD::COLELLADT
Created:Wed Nov 13 1991
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:4455
Total number of notes:16761

880.0. "Synoptics 5000 and management cards" by DPDMAI::DAVIES (Mark, SCA Area Network Consultant) Fri Apr 01 1994 11:36

    I have a question about the current management capability of the
    Synoptics 5000 vs DEChub 900.  The Stnoptics 3000 and 5000 both require
    management cards to manage ethernet, token ring and FDDI.  The DEChub
    900 doesn't.  Great.
    
    A very large DEC customer (large meaning spends a lot of money) is
    about to go with Synoptics.  We are going to submit a proposal of
    DEChub 900s.  They are going to use Synoptics 5000 hubs.
    
    Now the question.
    
    I am hearing that Synoptics has "fixed" their management card problem.
    If so, the DEChub 900 has lost some of it's edge when competing against
    the 5000 series.
    
    Is this true that the 5000 does not require management cards?
    
    Have they re-engineered all their cards to contain management
    capability?
    
    Is it available today?
    
    DO we know the costs of the new manageable cards and how that affects
    the total price of the solution?
    
    Thanks for any help,
    
    Mark
    
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
880.1they haven't changed the 5000DELNI::GIUNTAFri Apr 01 1994 17:227
    As far as I know, they still require 1 management card per technology.
    Can you send your configuration and I can try to work out what they're
    quoting and what we're quoting.  I've done some competitive analyses
    already against the 5000, so I might be able to help.  
    
    Regards,
    Cathy
880.2SynOptics 5000 is expensive to manage!NAC::SEAVERBill Seaver, HUBwatch MktgFri Apr 01 1994 17:55218
From:	NAC::SEAVER "HUBWATCH MARKETING 226-7368  01-Apr-1994 1645"  1-APR-1994 16:48:30.35
To:	DPDMAI::DAVIES
CC:	BUZZELL,SEAVER
Subj:	selling against SynOptics 5000 esp on management

Mark- see the matrix at the end.  The 5000 costs big time to manage.  YOu need
one card per technology (down from one per channel) but you need DEC chips per
channel for anything other than minimal management.  Let me know if you
need more data.

24 March 94- NAC::MANAGEMENT:SYNOPTICS.TXT

** DIGITAL Internal Use Only **


Competitor	Flash		Latest or critical information

SynOptics announces Optivity to manage all their hubs.

Digital response-  To use all the features of Optivity requires a great deal of
expensive management hardware that is included in the DEChub 900.  SynOptics
requires one management card per technology and in addition requires a $1595
DCE chip per segment and additional management cards if you want to manage more
than a minimal number of segments.

COMPANY BRIEF

Which Competitor: SynOptics	

	Strengths: Original hub vendor, have 20+% of market, reliable product, 
		    invented hub management, major competition
	Weaknesses: Configuring for management is complex and expensive
		  Struggling to find strategic direction

Product Strategy: Management runs on all major platforms.  Will give many
		  management options if you are willing to pay  (not sure 
		  anybody uses them)

Marketing Strategy: Used to be focused on management.  Currently seem to have
		    lost focus.

Channel Strategy: Most sold thru distribution.  Anixter is one of key
		  distributors.  Have tried branching out to other channels 
		  and ended up annoying distributors.


PRODUCT/SERVICE ANALYSIS

SynOptics management is expensive and complex.  We offer management built in on
the DEChub 900.  No extra modules or DCE chips are needed.  SynOptics requires
at least one management card (which takes up a slot) per technology. 

At $495 HUBwatch for Windows is much less expensive than anything SynOptics
offers.  The $695 Lattis EZ View does not support bridges or routers not to
mention the model 5000.  BridgeMan and RouterMan are $2400 and $3500
respectively.  This functionality is included in HUBwatch and is more graphical,
and thus easier to use.  

HUBwatch for Windows has and will have more functionality than Optivity for
Windows will ever have. HUBwatch manages the DEChub 900 while Optivity for
Windows does not yet manage the 5000.  In general SynOptics does not expect
their Windows versions to have the same power as the UNIX versions.

In general HUBwatch is more graphical than the SynOptics offering (Optivity). 
The hub views are comparable, but the screens below that are only buttons and a
graph for Optivity instead of the active icons, gages, and choices offered by
HUBwatch.


PRODUCT COMPARISON
------------------

ITEM		DIGITAL COMPETITOR	DIFFERENCE		COMMENT
----		------------------	----------		-------
>> use comparison from below- ports and Ethernet prices, reference attached
>>detail sheet
# of Ports	12	24		Better modularity	Few ports
								down when
								failure

Redundancy	Yes	Yes		Load leveling/		Longer life
					load sharing		and monitoring


SELLING APPROACH
----------------

What the competitor is saying		Digital Response
-----------------------------		----------------

HUBwatch only runs under POLYCENTER	By July 94, HUBwatch will run under
 enterprise manager			HP OpenView DOS, HP OpenView UX is
					coming.  Optivity 4.0 only runs under
					SunNet Manager with HP OpenView UX
					just released and other platforms still
					to come.

Windows has less power than UNIX. 	We have the same functionality on 
We will always have more functionality  the Windows platform as we have on 
on our UNIX versions.			our workstation platforms and can
					see no reason why that that will not
					continue as we add FDDI and ATM.

-TRIP WIRES (what to leave with the customer)
	Do you really want management that is that complex & expensive?
	Do you want repeater security on your flexible backplane?

-NUGGET/KNOCKOFFS (our Nuggets, their weakness) list
	+DEChub modules manageable as sold- just plug them in
	+lowest cost full function PC management at $495
	+no slot needed for management card
	+same modules manageable stand alone or in the hub
	+HUBwatch is the same on all platforms
	-PC versions are not as powerful as UNIX versions
	+Bridge, router, server management is fully graphical
	+software controlled backplane
	 ATM is only a code change
	-need to power down 5000 to add ATM
	-5000 does not support threshold setting
	-5000 does not allow port security


** DIGITAL Internal Use Only **

DIFFERENCES between DEChub 900 MultiSwitch and SynOptics System 3000/5000:
-The DEChub 900 MultiSwitch is more POWERFUL: 
  *MORE LANs in every technology (see table below)
  *NEW TECHNOLOGIES only require a software change (3000 cannot support 
    ATM on backplane, 5000 needs to be powered down)
  *MANAGEMENT and RETIMING are integral to the modules (3000 needs mgnt for
    each LAN & retiming, 5000 needs management for each technology, both need a
    workstation for the type of management Digital provides on a 386 PC)

      		DIGITAL 900MS		SYNOPTICS 3000	SYNOPTICS 5000
*****  potential maximum number of fully managed LANs supported in backplane:   
Ethernet		16*		 5			 3 (12)**
FDDI			 7		 3			 ? (5)**
Token ring		16		 2			 2 (9)**
 *currently support 7 Ethernet but have potential for 16
 **cannot load enough $1595 DCEs in one card to fully manage all LANs 
    (FDDI= unknown)

-DEChub 900 MultiSwitch is more COST EFFECTIVE:
*****  ETHERNET dollars per managed port (& estimated street price) for:
32 ports		218 (185)	419 (288)**	595 (409)*
64 ports		156 (132)	245 (169)**	369 (254)*
96 ports		135 (115)	187 (129)**	294 (202)*
256 ports		109 (93)	N/A		236 (162)*
 ** security costs more     * no security available 
*****  FDDI of dollars per managed port for:
16 ports		1187 (1009)	2248 (1547)	2523 (1736)
32 ports		1062 (903)	1811 (1246)	1993 (1371)
64 ports		1000 (850)	N/A		1605 (1104)
NOTE: these numbers for one LAN only.  SynOptics numbers are higher for
multiple LANs.

-The DEChub 900 MultiSwitch is more FLEXIBLE:
  *Backplane is controlled by SOFTWARE  (3000 has "channel divider card" that 
    must be physically moved, 5000 needs new hardware for new technologies)
  *Bandwidth is allocated by software as needed for all current and future
    technologies (SynOptics is fixed per technology)  

-The DEChub 900 MultiSwitch is EASIER to configure and use:
  *"Click & configure" software creates new LANs and prevents mistakes
    (3000 requires pulling modules and moving jumper cards, 5000 needs
    additional backplanes for new technologies)
  *Modules are manageable as sold (3000 requires a management card per LAN or
    a retiming card, 5000 needs a management card per technology)
  *Any module works in any slot (3000 requires cards to be added in order and
    only certain slots can use certain channels)


** DIGITAL Internal Use Only **

Worksheet for costing

      		DIGITAL 900MS		SYNOPTICS 3000	SYNOPTICS 5000
      	ETHERNET dollars per managed port (& estimated street price) for:
32 ports		218 (185)	419 (288)**	595 (409)*
64 ports		156 (132)	245 (169)**	369 (254)*
96 ports		135 (115)	187 (129)**	294 (202)*
256 ports		109 (93)	N/A		236 (162)*
 ** security costs more     * no security available 
NOTE: these numbers for one LAN only.  SynOptics numbers are higher for
multiple LANs.

      		DIGITAL 900MS		SYNOPTICS 3000	SYNOPTICS 5000
	FDDI of dollars per managed port for:
16 ports		1187 (1009)	2248 (1547)	2523 (1736)
32 ports		1062 (903)	1811 (1246)	1993 (1371)
64 ports		1000 (850)	N/A		1605 (1104)
NOTE: these numbers for one LAN only.  SynOptics numbers are higher for
multiple LANs.

Street price		.85		.688  (per Denise Dubrowski 7 Dec 93)
** SynOptics prices as of 28 Sept 93
HUB w 1 power supply	3990		2295 E		4495 E (chassis 
					3995 F		5995 F   quoted w/o
					2695 T		4995 TR  ps & superv)
additional supplies	 990		1900		1000

$ management module (assume 1 per technology for 3000- need mod/ LAN)
ETHER			-		6145*		5395
FDDI			-		9995		10995
TOKEN			-				6995
* including 750 for retiming module

$ connectivity/ports
ETHER			2990/32		2295/24*	4595/24**
FDDI (multi mode)	7500/8		5494/4 		7795/6
TOKEN			
*1595/12 with security
** no security

Gross SLOTS		8		12		14			
Less mgn't/ retime mod 	-		per LAN		per Technology
NOTE: 3000 needs either retiming or management module per LAN
    
880.3SynOptics 5000 managementYUPPY::KIRBYRWed Apr 06 1994 10:3320
    Hi, I have just joined Digital from SynOptics, as of 3 weeks ago.
    SynOptics absolutely does not YET have a media independednt management
    card for the 5000, but shortly they will have an Enet/TR capable card.
    FDDI seems highly unlikely to combine, because SynOptics still includes
    A/B ports on its FDDI management card and the hardware is more "FDDI
    specific".
    
    Theoretically, SynOptics can "rove" its "Data Collection Engine" chips
    around from Enet to Enet segment, enabling "detailed management" of
    many segments within a single 5000 chassis from a single Enet
    management card with at least 2 DCEs (one is always reserved as the
    main agent for communication between Hub and Management console).
    SynOptics is still having some serious problems with this in practice
    tho', and the detail of management available within the 5000 is
    actually only on a level with, or less, than that of the 3000.
    
    I'm not sure if this note will work, and I'm not sure if it will be
    obvious who I am or how to contact me if I can be of help. I only
    stumbled on this utility whilst browsing thru' all-in-1! I am on mail
    as Richard Kirby@hhl, in the UK, if I can be of help!