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Conference netcad::hub_mgnt

Title:DEChub/HUBwatch/PROBEwatch CONFERENCE
Notice:Firmware -2, Doc -3, Power -4, HW kits -5, firm load -6&7
Moderator:NETCAD::COLELLADT
Created:Wed Nov 13 1991
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:4455
Total number of notes:16761

381.0. "Configure DECconcentrator 900MX for FDDI" by GUIDUK::SMITH () Fri Sep 10 1993 14:46

DECconcentrator 900MX

    I need to understand the configure possibilities for DEChub MS
    with FDDI.  Diagrams of the 900MS shows the "12 Flexible channels"
    like a bus, yet FDDI is a "ring".  My guess is the magic is in
    the "Switch" part of 900MultiSwitch and is hidden from us mortals
    by the wonders of Hubwatch.  I have yet to see a good explanation
    on what interconnect possibilities exist and how many of "7 FDDIs"
    are used when connecting multiple DECconcentrator 900MX

    I have read the "DEChub 900MultiSwitch Owner's Manual", the amount
    of detail it goes into is (page 1-4):

         " ... Channels may be supported as a bus for shared use (like
         Ethernet) or cascaded for LANs requiring ring-like
         implementations."

I have several questions from a backplane/channel FDDI usage stand
point when 3 or more DECconcentrator are configured. I am interested
in a DEChub 900MS technical description rather than a reference to
Hubwatch.

Q1) What are the DECconcentrator 900MX configuration rules?

Q2) How do you create a tree ring on the backplane?

Q3) How do you create multiple independent tree of rings on the backplane?

Q4) How do you create a DAS ring on the backplane?

Q5) How do you extend a DAS ring on the backplane to external DAS
	devices?

Q6) If a DECconcentrator 900MX #1 is on a backplane SAS (not treeded)
	with 2 other DECconcentrators (#2, #3), then #1 fails ( or is hot
	swapped), can #2 & #3 communicate while #1 is out of action?
	What does the Hub Manager do with FDDI rings when a DECconcentrator
	module fails (or is hot swapped)?

Q7) Does the DECconcentrator 900MX have any port switching ( grouping
	different ports on different rings)?
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381.1DECconcentrator 900MX ConfigurationsDELNI::PIEPERThu Sep 23 1993 18:48269

Since you "have several questions from a backplane/channel FDDI usage stand
point when 3 or more DECconcentrator are configured" and are "interested
in a DEChub 900MS technical description rather than a reference to Hubwatch",
I will attempt to answer your questions.  For more details on exactly HOW 
you set up the configurations via HubWatch, you will need to contact others.

Q1) What are the DECconcentrator 900MX configuration rules?

	Please realize that that ANY FDDI connection between two adjacent 
	stations is actually POINT to POINT no matter where the stations are 
	in the configuration (tree or dual ring).  This is a basic fact for
	any vendor's FDDI products whether they are in a hub or not.  The 
	backplane of the DEChub 900 is used to make these point to point 
	connections between DECconcentrators in the hub. One channel is 
	needed for each "fiber" connection.  Since two "fiber" connections 
	are required between A and B ports (dual ring configuration) as well 
	as between M and S ports (tree configuration), TWO channels are 
	required to make the connection on the backplane between any two 
	DECconcentrators irregardless of the actual configuration.  Technically
	any type of configuration (dual ring, tree, or dual ring of trees)
	could be supported in the DEChub 900 backplane but only a limited
	subset of these options will be supported at FCS.

	The following diagrams attempt to demonstrate the various types of
	FDDI configurations that are possible in the hub:

	NOTE: ONLY the TREEING configuration will be supported at FCS by
	      the firmware and HubWatch

	Diagram #1: Treeing (Chained) Configuration:

			      Front Panel Ports

	  A M M M M B		  M M M M M M		  M M M M M M 
	  | | | | | |		  | | | | | |		  | | | | | |
	+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+		+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+		+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+	
	|   CONC #1   |		|   CONC #2   |		|   CONC #3   |
	+-+---------+-+		+-+---------+-+		+-+---------+-+
	  |	    |		  |	    |		  |	    |
	 Not	    +-------------+         +-------------+         M
       Available    M		  S	    M		  S

				Backplane Ports

	In this configuration, Concentrator #1 has a dual ring connection
	via the front panel (ports #1 & #6) and ONE M-Port connection to
	the backplane (a HARDWARE limitation does not allow the second 
	backplane port to be used in this particular configuration).  
	Concentrator #2 is treed off concentrator #1 via a backplane port 
	(S-port) and in turn concentrator #3 is treed off of concentrator 
	#2's backplane M-port.  If concentrator #2 is removed/hot-swapped,
	overtemperatures or stops talking to the Hub Management, the DEChub 
	Management will reconnect concentrator #3 directly to concentrator 
	#1 via the backplane. 
	Note: Chaining is probably a more accurate term than treeing in the
	hub since we do not branch out into multiple paths but actually 
	string the concentrators together.



	Diagram #2: Dual Ring Configuration:

			      Front Panel Ports

	  M M M M M B		  M M M M M M 		  A M M M M M
	  | | | | | |		  | | | | | |		  | | | | | |
	+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+		+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+		+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+	
	|   CONC #1   |		|   CONC #2   |		|   CONC #3   |
	+-+---------+-+		+-+---------+-+		+-+---------+-+
	  |	    |		  |	    |		  |	    |
	  M	    +-------------+         +-------------+         M
	  	    A		  B	    A		  B	    

				Backplane Ports

	In this configuration, all the concentrators connect directly to the
	dual ring.  Concentrator #1's front panel port #6 acts as the external
	B-port connection to the dual ring and one of its backplane ports acts 
	as the A-port (the other backplane port can act as an M-port).  With
	concentrator #2, both backplane ports are used as the A/B connections 
	to the dual ring.  Concentrator #3 has the B-port connection to the
	dual ring via the backplane and the dual ring exits via port #1 that 
	is acting as an A-port.



	Diagram #3: Dual Ring of Trees Configuration:

			      Front Panel Ports

	  M M M M M B		  A M M M M M 		  M M M M M M
	  | | | | | |		  | | | | | |		  | | | | | |
	+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+		+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+		+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+	
	|   CONC #1   |		|   CONC #2   |		|   CONC #3   |
	+-+---------+-+		+-+---------+-+		+-+---------+-+
	  |	    |		  |	    |		  |	    |
	  M	    +-------------+         +-------------+         M
	  	    A		  B	    M		  S	    

				Backplane Ports

	In this configuration, concentrators #1 & #2 connect directly to the
	dual ring.  Concentrator #3 is treed off of concentrator #2 (note:
	additional concentrators could be treed off of either concentrator #1
	or concentrator #3 M-ports) Concentrator #1's front panel port #6 acts 
	as the external B-port connection to the dual ring and one of its back-
	plane ports acts as the A-port.  Concentrator #2 has the B-port 
	connection to the dual ring via the backplane and the dual ring exits 
	via port #1 that is acting as an A-port.  The second backplane port on
	concentrator #2 acts as the M-port connection to the treed or chained
	concentrator #3



	
Q2) How do you create a tree ring on the backplane?

	I don't know what you mean by a "tree ring" unless you mean a
	dual ring of trees.  Diagram #3 shows how to create a dual ring of
	trees configuration in the DEChub backplane but remember that 
	treeing or "chaining" (Diagram #1) is the ONLY configuration that
	is supported at FCS.  Support for other configurations such as a
	ring of trees will occur in future releases of firmware/software.

Q3) How do you create multiple independent tree of rings on the backplane?

	Just repeat configuration #3 (the ring of trees) twice and don't 
	interconnect them.  You can support FDDI concentrators in all eight 
	slots of the DEChub 900 and interconnect them across the backplane 
	into a single FDDI network or multiple FDDI networks.

Q4) How do you create a DAS ring on the backplane?

	You simply need to use the Dual Ring Configuration (Diagram #2)
	above and connect the backplane port of concentrator #1 to the
	backplane port of concentrator #3.  See Diagram #4 below.  Again 
	remember that treeing or "chaining" (Diagram #1) is the ONLY 
	configuration that is supported at FCS.  Support for other types 
	of configurations such as a DAS ring on the backplane will occur 
	in future releases of firmware/software.

	Diagram 4: Dual Ring in the Backplane

			      Front Panel Ports

	  M M M M M M		  M M M M M M 		  M M M M M M
	  | | | | | |		  | | | | | |		  | | | | | |
	+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+		+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+		+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+	
	|   CONC #1   |		|   CONC #2   |		|   CONC #3   |
	+-+---------+-+		+-+---------+-+		+-+---------+-+
	  |	    |		  |	    |		  |	    |
	  |	    +-------------+         +-------------+         |
	  |	    A		  B	    A		  B	    |
	  +---------------------------------------------------------+
	  B			Backplane Ports			    A


Q5) How do you extend a DAS ring on the backplane to external DAS
    devices?

	See Diagram # 2 above for a DAS ring configuration in the backplane
	but again remember that treeing or "chaining" (Diagram #1) is the ONLY 
	configuration that is supported at FCS.  Support for other types of
	configurations such as a DAS ring in the backplane will occur in 
	future releases of firmware/software.



Q6) If a DECconcentrator 900MX #1 is on a backplane SAS (not treeded) with 2 
    other DECconcentrators (#2, #3), then #1 fails ( or is hot swapped), can 
    #2 & #3 communicate while #1 is out of action?  What does the Hub Manager 
    do with FDDI rings when a DECconcentrator module fails (or is hot swapped)?

	I do not understand your question as it is worded.  I don't see how
	you have a SAS connection that is not treed - it seems to be a 
	contradiction.  If you mean what happens when a concentrator in
	a tree or chain is removed (hot swapped), then the DEChub Management 
	will detect the removal and reconnect the two neighboring concentrators
	via the backplane to reform the chain/tree. 

	Looking at Diagram #5, if concentrator #1 fails or is hot swapped,
	concentrators #2 and #3 can continue communicating with each other
	but obviously will not be able to communicate to FDDI stations on the
	DAS backbone since the physical link to that backbone (concentrator #1)
	has been removed from the hub.  If concentrator	#2 is hot swapped, 
	Hub Management will automatically reconnect concentrator #3 to 
	concentrator #1 and communications can continue.

	Diagram #5: Treeing (Chained) Configuration:

			      Front Panel Ports

	  A M M M M B		  M M M M M M		  M M M M M M 
	  | | | | | |		  | | | | | |		  | | | | | |
	+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+		+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+		+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+	
	|   CONC #1   |		|   CONC #2   |		|   CONC #3   |
	+-+---------+-+		+-+---------+-+		+-+---------+-+
	  |	    |		  |	    |		  |	    |
	 Not	    +-------------+         +-------------+         M
       Available    M		  S	    M		  S

				Backplane Ports


	NOTE:  There is a "redundant root" configuration that will be 
	supported in a future release of firmware/software that will allow
	redundant A/B connections out of the DEChub to the FDDI dual ring.
	The Hub Manager will be able to do this where the hub has two 
	concentrators with DAS connections to the SAME dual ring and other 
	concentrators in the hub chain off one or the other concentrator.
	If either of the "root" (DAS connected) concentrators  is removed,
	hot-swapped, overtemperatures, or stops talking to DEChub Management,
	the Hub Management would automatically switch the chained concentrators
	off of the failed root and onto the other root's chain.  Refer to 
	Diagram #6:  Concentrator #2 is chained/treed off Concentrator #1 while
	Concentrator #4 is chained off of Concentrator #3.  Both Concentrator
	#1 and #3 have DAS (A/B) connections to the SAME FDDI ring/network.
	If Concentrator #1 fails, then Concentrator #2 would be connected to
	Concentrator #4, thereby creating the chain of #4 and #2 off of #3
	acting as the root. (See Diagram #7)



	Diagram #6: Redundant Root Configuration:

			      Front Panel Ports

        A M M M M B	    M M M M M M		A M M M M B 	  M M M M M M
        | | | | | |	    | | | | | |		| | | | | |	  | | | | | |
      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+	  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+	+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
      |   CONC #1   |	  |   CONC #2   |     |   CONC #3   |	|   CONC #4   |
      +-+---------+-+	  +-+---------+-+     +-+---------+-+   +-+---------+-+
        |         |	    |	      |	        |         |	  |	    |
       Not        +---------+         M	       Not        +-------+         M
      Available   M	    S	    	     Available    M       S

				Backplane Ports




	Diagram #7: Configuration AFTER a Root Failure

			      Front Panel Ports

         A M M M M B	    M M M M M M		A M M M M B 	  M M M M M M
         | | | | | |	    | | | | | |		| | | | | |	  | | | | | |
       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+	  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+	+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
       | FAILED ROOT |	  |   CONC #2   |     |   CONC #3   |	|   CONC #4   |
       +-+---------+-+	  +-+---------+-+     +-+---------+-+   +-+---------+-+
         |         |	    |	    |	        |         |	  |	    |
        Not	   | 	    |       M	       Not        +-------+         |
       Available   M	    |	    	     Available    M       S	    |
			    +-----------------------------------------------+
			    S						    M

				Backplane Ports

Q7) Does the DECconcentrator 900MX have any port switching ( grouping
    different ports on different rings)?

	NO - the DECconcentrator 900MX does not support connections to
	multiple FDDI rings/networks and therefore it does not make any sense
	to have port switching.  Just like the DECconcentrator 500, it has a 
	single MAC chip/address and connects to only ONE FDDI network.
	

381.27 cablesGUIDUK::SMITHThu Sep 23 1993 20:4410
Thank you.

So, 
	For FDDI, the 900MS backplane is a patch panel.

	You can make up to 7 point-to-point FDDI [2-fiber] connections.

	"Chained" configuration is the only supported configuration at FCS.

	DEChub Management will "patch" around failed modules.
381.3STRWRS::KOCH_PIt never hurts to ask...Wed Nov 10 1993 10:4418
    What functionality do we have at FCS? I have heard that this product
    now has a 150 day lead time! What is the problem? 
    
    I'm all for caution, but this is going to cause big problems in the
    field! We need to be able to order and ship these devices NOW! If there
    are limitations, give us a legal document for the customer to sign
    acknowledging these limitations.
    
    If we have a command line interface, who cares? If the limitation is
    quantity 1 at each site in a DEChub 900 because it only supports A/B +
    4 M ports, so be it. This is what my customers need. If I need a SLIP
    connection to TELNET into the hub to configure it by hand, tell me.
    I'll sell that as a service or give away 1 free configuation consulting
    session or require the customer to buy a DS90TL to configure it until
    HUBwatch is ready.
    
    Tell me what concessions I have to make to get this product to my
    customers!
381.4you can't just ship anythingDELNI::GIUNTAWed Nov 10 1993 11:0529
This product has had a 150-day leadtime since it was announced, and it has
not been changed.

You need to talk with the product manager, Sharon O'Neill, about this product
to get a good status on where it is in the engineering cycle and when it
will ship as I don't have that information.  Sharon can be reached at
DTN 226-5112 or on DELNI::ONEILL.

In general at least for my products, I can't just ship things now, or even
early for that matter, with some sort of legal document giving the customer
known restrictions as what I have now is just plain not ready. All the
functionality is not there, and won't be there till we finally get to FCS.
I realize that it's difficult for the field to hear that we're not ready
yet, but imagine the nightmares created by shipping something that doesn't
work yet or still has major known bugs or doesn't even have base-level
functionality.  You can't put stuff like that on a customer's network, so
it doesn't help anyone to ship things that are not ready yet. If I could,
I'd start shipping stuff as I want the revenue and market-share just as much
as the next guy.  But it's just not possible yet on my products that are still
under development.  And although I continually beat on engineering to finish 
the design and get the thing out the door, I also know they're working their
tails off to deliver.

Believe me, I'll ship as soon as I can, and I'll do whatever I can to get 
protos for things like evaluations.  But on some of my products, I'm just
not there yet.

Regards,
Cathy
381.5STRWRS::KOCH_PIt never hurts to ask...Wed Nov 10 1993 12:2120
    I don't advocate shipping UNannounced products with customer letters.
    However, if we do announce a product, we need to ship it within a
    reasonable amount of time. 150 days is NOT reasonable.
    
    I could see if these products were PROGRAM announced, but they were
    PRODUCT announced. If so, 30-60 days is reasonable. 
    
    Are we saying that we are product announcing items which aren't fully
    finished? If so, it allows our competitors to FUD our customers and
    interrupts sales cycles and damage account control.
    
    The announcement of the DECconcentrator 900MX essentially wipes out
    sales of DECconcentrator 500 devices. Customers aren't going to buy
    these since they are now "obsolete" in THEIR minds. If we want revenue
    we should have a fire sale on DC500 products so customers feel they are
    getting a "steal" when buying "obsolete" DC500 products. This would
    help us to manage the revenue stream until full production of DC900
    comes on line.
    
    
381.6IMPORTANT Changes to DEChub FDDI ConfigsDELNI::PIEPERMon Jan 24 1994 11:396
    Please refer to Note #651 in this note file for the LATEST 
    information on FDDI configurations in the DEChub 900.  The 
    implementation strategy has changed since the Note #381.1 
    response was posted.  The plan is to implement FDDI RINGS 
    for the FCS in March and do FDDI TREES in a follow-on 
    firmware release this summer