Conference 7.286::atarist

    Jack, 
    
    Here in the US, Atari is so far gone as a computer maker that many
    people have abandoned the platform.  I still have mine, because it does
    the job and I have no need to invest over $1K in a new system that
    won't do it any better.  
    
    Most US users who remain seem to be in a phase of using their systems
    but not expanding anymore.  After all that waiting for the Falcon, a
    local dealer got some in a few months ago, and I've gotten so
    disinterested I haven't even gone down to look at it.  
    
    Atari's problem with computers is that the "home" market for computers
    is a bit of a myth.  There are really no applications at home that
    *need* a computer.   In the US, Intel-based machines rule the business
    market, Mac comes in #2 and Atari and Amiga are non-existent.  Atari's
    only chance is to leverage whatever success they can get from Jaguar
    into a multimedia platform to succeed the Falcon.  They can't hope to
    compete in the mainstream PC market and obviously are not interested in
    even trying.
    
    So with a shrinking user base, it's no surprise there's little traffic
    in here.  I'm surprised there aren't more "for sale" postings, though
    8^) 
    
    							Brian

    I think the "home" computer market is traditionally  built up from 2
    sorts of people: those that want to play games and those that enjoy
    hacking together programs. The Atari scene adds a 3rd component - Midi
    music buffs.  
    
    I think what's happened over the last few years is that the games
    people have gone for dedicated consoles while the hack programmers have
    started to move towards the PC and mac, probably because these machines 
    are what they use at work or college. The Midi/music scene will
    probably keep Atari interest going a little bit beyond what it would
    have otherwise been, but even here many of the big name applications
    such as Cubase are now available for the PC and/or Mac, and Midi
    interface cards for these machines are reasonably cheap.
    
    I have spent many hours programming the ST and consequently having to
    read and learn about the system architecture to get my programs to
    work. All I got out of this was enjoyment. If I had spent the same
    amount of time learning how to program Windows or Macintosh I would
    have got similar enjoyment but also valuable marketable skills. Now I
    have to decide - do I want to get a Falcon and start delving into
    Multitos, or get a PC with Windows and learn about something which may 
    benefit me financially.
    
    Tony I
               

     
     Will all the hype of the jaguar console system here (Canada/USA) and
    the lack of hype for anything with a keyboard leads most to believe
    that the days of Atari "Computers" are gone.  Every edge Atari had
    except MIDI is now more or less gone. (Even Midi is done nicely on
    other systems).. I still have 2 ST systems (4megSTe, 1 meg520stfm) but
    the support in my area (rather large) is dead.
    
     I look forward to the console, it really sounds good. Maybe they can
    take some of the money they make from it and put it into Falcon
    advertising....ha! 
    
    Keith@TRO
    

    	I read in the current issue of Atari Explorer On Line that
    according to Atari, Jaguar sales are being depended on to
    finance future projects including, as I understand, the Falcon series
    and Falcon marketing. Atari Explorer On Line also gives details of the
    losses reported by Atari, unfortunately I don't have the copy to hand
    so can't quote the figures, but as I remember it the figures were a lot
    better than the previous year. This seems to be the current financial
    status with the majority of computer companies.
    	I am often surprised and amazed at Atari's apparent marketing
    strategy when I read articles and reviews quoting Atari as stating
    things like 'we will "allow" mail order from...' or "sales will
    initially be 'restricted' to.... (NY and Chicago?)" etc.
    One would think that if the demand for the product exists, Atari would
    be very keen to "allow" sales by any means. Perhaps this is a
    procedure specific to the USA as it does not seem to applicable here in
    the UK.
    	I think perhaps Atari's biggest market is here in Europe, so maybe
    things are different here as regards product availability.
    	I agree with -.1 in that I think Atari are hoping to make a lot
    of revenue from the Jaguar to finance future Falcon products.
    I am heavily into MIDI and plan to buy a Falcon which apparently has
    much to offer from a Hard-Disk recording point of view.
                                                             
    Brian 

    Re: .4, restrictions
    
    The current restriction, as I understand it, is that a US mail order
    dealer cannot sell a Falcon to you if there is an authorized Atari
    dealer within 100 miles of your home.  Of course, if that dealer is 99
    miles away, or maybe he's close but a jerk and expensive to boot, too
    bad.  The reasoning is that the local dealers need protection from
    low-ball mail order prices.  The reality is that the buyer *has* to buy
    from the local dealer like it or not.  
    
    For example, I have dealt with the local Atari dealer before.  It's a
    music store, not a computer store, their discounts are less than other
    music stores and I have had some unpleasant experiences with them in
    the past.  Toad, on the other hand, has been excellent to deal with and
    I would buy from them in a second.  So I am now in a situation where
    I'm stuck...either I buy from the local guy or I have to drive over 100
    miles to find another dealer.
    
    Just one more reason why I've hesitated to buy a Falcon.
    
    							Brian

I sure can relate to this discussion.

1 - My TT is still for sale (it's listed in the ForSale note.)

2 - If you decide to switch, DON'T BUY A PC, Get a Mac. I got a Mac,
and a year later added a PC.  If you stay away from the expensive
software, the Macintosh isn't too bad on the pocketbook, and is a much
nicer computer. If you have been an atari user for years, the fact that
it isn't as mainstream as a PC won't bother you.

Having one of each allows me to get a good perspective on what's out
there.  There is NOTHING in the same class as PageStream.  On both the
Macintosh and the PC, programs tend to do stupid things - really stupid
- like when you read a 300DPI TIFF graphic, reduce it to screen
resolution and leave it in screen resolution when you print it. That's
just one example.  Both machines are ideosyncratic around the edges.
Generally, the software quality isn't any better there, unless you pay
the BIG BUCKS for the top stuff- whcih often doesn't get you any better
anyway. 

However, I go back to the Atari every once in a while, and I'm always
happy to go back to the Macintosh.  The multitasking, the fully
integrated cut and paste, and the FANTASTIC networking capabilities far
outweigh having to use crufty substitues for PageStream.

The PC and Windows isn't bad either, but configuring PathWorks isn't
NEARLY as easy as mounting an Appleshare volume, and I've wasted hours
doing "system management" on the PC that I never had to do with the
Macintosh.  Everybody keeps telling me tht NT will be better...

(Also, Whack for Macintosh is far beyond what Whack was for the Atari :-)

    I don't quite agree with .6. I got a MAC last winter and boy was i
    dissapointed. The MAC was more expensive, slower and .... Ok it was nice
    to have multitasking, color monitor but still it was much to expensive
    compared to the performance it had (LC II). The program i used, Cubase,
    was much better on Atari expect for one detail, the score printing.
    
    If i would change to another computer today i would go for a PC. It's
    cheap, there is a lot of good software for it, for the money you save if
    by a PC instead of MAC, you can get a lot of enhancing hardware. OK so
    MAC has built-in networking capabilites, built-in SCSI, it has a user 
    friendlier interface, in some sense superior video but still it's so 
    EXPENSIVE!! And who needs a network at home? With the pc you can 
    transfer your old files easier from the Atari. This of course not
    seen from a programmers point of view, maybe the MAC OS is much nicer
    to program than Windows but i still find MAC inferior when it comes to
    Price/Performance. I must though confess that if got a MAC for free i
    wouldn't throw it away.
    
    
    	Jack
    

>> maybe the MAC OS is much nicer
>>    to program than Windows 
    
    Personally, I've found trying to program the Mac to be a very confusing
    and frustrating business. My main problem is obtaining good simple
    documentation on the operating system calls and examples on how to do
    simple things like format some text in a window. When I visit any
    bookstore they have dozens of simple programmer's references for
    windows but no equivalent small, CHEAP reference for the mac. Since I
    support Pathworks on both platforms I have had to get the Inside
    Macintosh set which I find large, unwieldly and not readable (it was
    also very expensive!)
    
    Just a personal feeling, 
    
    Tony I
          

My entire collection of IM volumes (I through VI) weighs far less than
my Microsoft Visual C++ documentation.

    I've managed to learn to program windows without requiring a huge
    documentation set of any kind - just Petzold's book plus the online
    help files you get with the windows SDK.
    
    I haven't found a similar easy path to Mac programming. Maybe shops in
    the UK just don't stock enough Mac books. I have tried many bookshops
    including Foyle's and Blackwells, two of the UK's largest bookstores.
    I'm using THINK C which includes no online help of any kind. Is MPW
    better?
    
    Tony I

Think C is sold in pieces.  This is marketing - it lowers the cost of
entry, and also make it so that you aren't forced to pay for everything
even if you don't use it all.  You just have to get the right ones. 
The one you don't have is "Think Reference".  (The other two are 'C',
and 'C++'.)

Also, it is not true that Think C has no on line help at all. Version 6
comes with the Think reference "bookreader" and documentation on all
the standard library routines.  If you buy Think Reference 2.0, you get
documentation on all the "Managers" provided by Macintosh system
software.  95% of what I know about Macintosh programming I learned from
Think Reference.  The other 5% came from reading minor additional
details in IM, namely the I/O controls to the serial driver, and the
programmer's interface to the communication toolbox, both very higly
specialized to the kind of application I am writing.

[I do a lot of my programming in weird places, like in the car with my
wife driving, or in bed, or in waiting rooms, where it is a burden to
carry manuals around.]

Also, with version 6, option double-clicking on routines will call up
either their source, or their manual pages, depending on what is
available, just like Visual C++ and for that matter Pure C on the Atari.
[This is the Atari conference, after all.  Pure C is GREAT STUFF, and
you should get it even if you don't read German.!!]

With the addition of Think Reference, and a paper copy of IM, the
programmer's package on the Mac is pretty close to the same capability
as Visual C++, and a lot less complicated!

    
     Apparantly Atari share prices have rocketed to about 12.5 dollars,
    from somewhere under 1 dollar some months ago - could anyone with
    access to a US financial newspaper confirm this?
     The scource of the figure is the current issue of Atari Explorer
    Online (7-Nov-1993). 
    
    Brian
    

      
     I don't have the exact numbers, but it did jump from less than 1 buck
    to $5 in 1 weekend.  As soon as it was said that IBM was going to
    produce the Jag, then it jumped.  Last time I checked (few weeks ago)
    it was about $10 cdn...  
    
    Keith
    

    
       Atari are "having discussions with IBM about other possible uses for
    the Jaguar chipset" says Bob Brodie according to the RT transcript from
    GEnie in the same issue  - sounds interesting!
    
    Brian