Conference 7.286::atarist

Nick,

IBMFMT will allow you to 'format' your floppy for use by both the PC and your
Atari. Of course bear in mind that formatted for the PC will only be 720kb.

It's floating around on the network somewhere...

    
    IBMFMT, sounds good I apperciate the old 720kb and thats
    understandable. To push the point a bit further how does
    one copy to a ST floppy formatted in IBM format.
    
    And I'm unfortunate in that I don't have access to a DEC floppy 
    drive. So if a lovely person would copy this and send it to myself
    I would be eternally greatful. Of course full reimbursment will be
    forecoming.
    
    Nick
    
    FUTURS::LLOYDN 

This note has raised a question in my mind ...

Given that this office (Warrington, UK) now has a number of networked
DECstation PCs around, can I finally download stuff off the network using the
following process :-

i)   Format a floppy on the PC at 720Kb 
ii)  Copy stuff from the network to my local VMS account
iii) Set up a PATHWORKS service on the PC to point at my VMS account
iv)  Copy stuff from this virtual disc to the floppy using the MS-DOS COPY
     command.

If this works in theory, what commands do I need in practice ? Here are the 
bits I would know, and some questions :-

i)   What is the syntax of the FORMAT command ? I need to force a 720Kb 
     format (which I know the ST can read), but I would guess that the 
     default is 1.44Mb.
ii)  I know this bit --> $copy fromnode::[directory]files tonode::[directory]
iii) I would do      --> use ?:\\node\account%account *
     then put in the password for my VMS account. This would give me a 
     virtual drive (call it F: for now)
iv)  Easy.           --> copy f:filename.ext a:

To my (non-technical) brain it looks like the difficult bit is to do the 
formatting. Life being what it is, I would guess that this has to be done on
the ST using IBMFMT, which is available on the net, which I can't copy until
I can format a disc, which I can't do until I get IBMFMT ......

Cheers,

    Derek.

    
    re. last few
    
    1.) Atari TOS 1.4 and up formats in IBM-format as default, if not
        sure use the mentioned IBMFMT.PRG
    
    2.) To format a 720kB floppy on the PC, use the syntax
        format a:/f:720 (DOS 3.3 and up)
    
    3.) to copy stuff from the net via a DECstation, here's the syntax
        to follow:
    
        C:>NFT                     (network file transfer, should be
                                    installed when the PC is in the net)
    
        NFT> copy node"uname passw"::disk:[directory]file a:
    
        (copies the file[s] to drive a:)
    
        or, the other way around:
    
        NFT> copy a:\file node"uname passw":: ..... a.s.o.
    
    
    Bernd
    
    

    You can also use DCformat to make IBM format floppies. I've used it
    and it works just fine. I have found that formatting on my ST gives
    me better results than formatting on the IBM clone does. Also note
    that if you use a high density floppy disk (rated for 2Mb, to be
    used in a 1.44Mb drive) that you MUST cover the extra hole on the
    side of the disk to be able to format it at 720Kb. Otherwise the
    silly IBM formatter will insist on making it into a 1.44Mb formatted
    disk! ARghh! This one drove me crazy for a while.
    
    Dan
    

    Also, NeoDesk also formats diskettes in IBM format.
    

The story continues ...

>    3.) to copy stuff from the net via a DECstation, here's the syntax
>        to follow:
>    
>        C:>NFT                     (network file transfer, should be
>                                    installed when the PC is in the net)
>    
>        NFT> copy node"uname passw"::disk:[directory]file a:
>    
>        (copies the file[s] to drive a:)

I've done all of this (thank you for the information), but I still have a 
problem. When I put the floppy in the ST the ST recognises it as being OK, down
to the point where all of the files copied are there, with the right filenames.

I thought that everything was fine until I tried to run any of the .PRG or
.TTP files I'd copied over. The disc started accessing then the screen went 
blank and the ST rebooted :-(

Is there something else I should be doing ? I've tried both copy and copy/block
in NFT with the same sad result.

Cheers,

    Derek.

    
    when you open up the floppy with doubleclick, does the rootdirectory
    show up ok? Does the SHOW INFO work ok on that floppy?
    If the files moved correct from net to floppy, I have no other 
    solution than corrupted files. Try to read a text (ASCII) README-file.
    If anything corrupted during data transfer, you'll maybe see some
    strange characters in that textfile.
    The only other idea I have is that something was wrong with the format.
    You'll see that when doing a directory or a show info on the floppy.
    Where did you format the floppy to 720kB, PC or ST?
    
    Bernd

Bernd,

The root directory looks OK, but I haven't tried SHOW INFO. Unfortunately my
ST is at home so I can't test anything out until tonight, but I'll try copying
a text file and see what happens.

The floppy was formatted on the PC with format a:/f:720 as you suggested.

Cheers,

    Derek.

    This CAN be done - I am running a copy of uniterm downloaded in this
    way. The floppy was formatted to 720 k on a pc and the files copied via
    a pathworks file service. I found some of the files on the disk
    wouldn't load onto the ST but some would. I made multiple copies of the
    files I wanted on the disk so as to maximise my chances.
    
    Keep trying!
    
    Tony I

Your files are being corrupted by the infamous VAX RMS file system.

Do a DIR/FULL of the VMS file before moving it to the floppy.  If it is
a VAR 510 file or a VAR 128 file, you should use the CVTARC program on
it first to convert it to a STREAM_LF file - then it should transfer
okay.  I think.

Thanks for the help guys, I'll give it a try over the weekend. If I ever get
this working I'll write a guide for *real* idiots like me ;-)

Cheers,

    Derek.

Well you'll be glad to hear that it all works fine now. Running CVTARC seems
to have fixed most of the problems (some programs (e.g. MT32.TOS) just give
bombs when they run, but that could be a TOS incompatibility).

Thanks to everyone for their help, and as promised I'll write a simple step by
step guide when I've got a spare moment.

Cheers,

    Derek.

I have MT32.TOS and it works for me - I can even edit most of the D5
parameters with it.  I know it works with 1.4 - what other TOS versions
would you like me to check it with (I have machines with 1.0, 1.4, and 1.6).

Jeff,

I have TOS 1.4, and I've tried MT32.TOS with a mono monitor and a TV. I'm 
trying the approach suggested in .10 (i.e. make multiple copies and keep
trying). The only other thought I've had is that I don't think I actually
had my MT32 connected when I started the program, so if it does any sanity
checking first then I failed ;-)

Thanks for your help so far.

Cheers,

    Derek.

    A question about the ibm disks... I have an 1040STe, tos 1.6 in it.  I
    use disks formatted on the ST on my ibm, and copy files back and forth.
    However I notice that some disks, are fast loading when I copy onto my
    ibm hd, while some are slower than normal (slower than the ST as well.)
    
       Anyone know what causes this?  I've used the same formatting (the ST
    desktop....) on all 40 or so disks.... About 15 are the fast loading,
    all disks are of the same type... (no name double sided....)....
    
    KR
    

	This may sound stupid but, can a single sided ST drive read
a 720k pc format. Is there a separate FAT for each side of the disk.
Will the pc attempt to fill up one side before the other. If so, maybe
this will work. I know, I know, I'm still living in the dark ages with
my ST. I would love to upgrade my single sided using a 720k pc drive
as described in this conference, but I'm not sure that's possible with
my drive.

-Andre

    I wouldn't have thought that any standard DS disk format would fill one
    side then the other as this leads to inefficient extra head movements.
    The more usual arrangement is to treat each head position as a
    "cylinder" of two tracks. 
    
    However, it is possible to format a DS disk so that a single sided drive
    can read the first side only - many UK atari magazines used to use such
    a format for their cover disks (though they are dropping the format now
    as not many people have SS drives any more)  
    
    Tony I

	Yes, you're right. I found this out last night when copying a
file to a 720k pc disk. The SS st drive could see the file, but not 
copy it because the file was written on both sides of the disk. Another
approach that I thought of was to mark all of the clusters on one side
of the disk as bad. This would force the pc to write to one side only.
Clusters start at 2 and go to ~700. Now I need to know which ones to
mark. All odd clusters? All even clusters? Are all the clusters on one
cylinder of one head grouped together? You get the picture.

-Andre

    It seems to me that simply swapping the SS mechanism for a DS mechanism
    is the best bet.  I did this on my 520 and it's really as simple as
    pull out the old drive, plug in the new...the only tricky part is
    getting a drive you know will work in the ST.
    
                                                  Brian

    
    On a Single sided disk, the data is stored as follows;
    
    Track 0, Sector 1				Boot Sector
    Track 0, Sectors 2 - 6			FAT 1
    Track 0, Sector 7 - Track 1,Sector 2 	FAT 2
    Track 1, Sector 3 - 9			Directory
    Track 2  thro Track 79			Files
    
    On a Double sided disk;
    
    Side 1 Track 0 Sector 1			Boot sector
    Side 1 Track 0 Sector 2 - 6			FAT 1
    Side 1 Track 0 Sector 7 - 9   plus
    Side 2 Track 0 Sector 1 - 2			FAT 2
    Side 2 Track 0 Sector 3 - 9			Directory
    Side 1/2 Tracks 1 - 79			Files
    
    2 Sectors = 1 Cluster.
    
    Using a RAM disk, it is possible to copy a single sided disk to a
    double sided one, but not vice versa.
    
    Several suppliers advertise DS internal drives at around �35 - �40,
    and there are lots of notes in this conference, re swapping.
      
    
    /Brian
    

	I would love to just swap my single sided mechanism for
a double sided one. I asked this question in another note and got no
response so I'll ask it again. I'm not sure that my mechanism is 
"standard". From my recollection, the PC 3.5 inch drives have either a 
dual in-linbe pin connector (for connecting a ribbon cable ) or an
edge connector. I opened up my SS ST drive case and it had a single
in-line pin connector (about 20-30 pins) and a 4 pin in-line connector
for power. They didn't look like what I had seen in PC drives. Were the
mechanisms changed at some point in time or am I missing something?

-Andre

    
    ST-drives are working with the standard Shugart bus that is also used
    in the PC-world. Get a 3.5" drive (Double Sided, Double Density =
    720kB) and it will work. There might be some corrections neccessary,
    like the value of the resistor packs, or to add a diode, but this was
    discussed very detailed in the floppy-drive topics of this conference.
    Do a "dir/title=floppy" to find out more.
    
    Bernd
    
    

The atari does generate standard shugart signals, but it sounds like Andre has
a non standard connector on his drive.

You may need to wire a new cable to the pc board in the drive case.

	Ray

	Yes, yes yes. You're right. The question that I have been
asking is if anyone knows if older drives were non standard. 

-Andre

	I had to change the drive in my 1040st when it started acting up.
	I went to a pc show and bought a teac 1.44 drive for about $45.00.
	I can't use the 1.44 option but it still works just fine and it
	will format out to 84 or 85 tracks if needed. That gets me just
	under 1 meg, not bad. As far as the installation went, I just had
	to put a single twist in the drive cable and it worked. That is
	the connector was wired exactly opposite of my old drive. It was
	a little stretch on the cable and I put some thick tape over the
	metal shield box. All worked well and I have been using the drive
	for over a year now.

						Bob Adams