Conference 7.286::atarist

     RE: .0

          You don't say in the base note what kind/who's harddrive driver 
     you are using.  I know with Atari's, there is a key sequence you can
     hold that will tell the driver not to boot off of the harddisk.  I
     think you just have to hold down the "ALT" key.  It will then boot off
     of the floppy.  After the system has booted off of the floppy, you can
     insert a floppy in the drive which has the hard disk driver software
     on it.  You can then double click on the driver program and now access
     your hard disk.  You can now delete the bad accessory off of the hard
     disk.

          I don't think that I missed any points, but it's been quite a
     while since I've had to do this.  ;-)

     Bill Powers

Bill's description sounds right except for the key sequence. On all HD's that
I that I know of, you can hold down the CONTROL-SHIFT-ALTERNATE keys to stop
the HD from booting.

	Ray

    
    	Bill & Ray,
    
    		Thanks for the responses, I'll give it a try tonight
    	when I get home.  I was (and still am) prepared to have to
    	re-init my HD (certainly hope not).   To answer you question
    	Bill, the drive is a Seagate 277N using a Berkely MicroSystems
    	200 controller (BMS-200).  I've never tried the CONTROL-SHIFT-
    	ALTERNATE keys, but it's GOT to be better that MY 1st thoughts.
    
    						Tnx agn 2 U bth,
    
    						      Rich
    	P.S.
    		Will enter the final resolution after tonight - I suspect.
    

There is absolutly NO reason to initialize your HD just to fix this problem.
Unless you never add another DA or /AUTO program to your ST you will undoubtly
run across this problem again. So might as well figure out one of the painless
methods of recovery the first time.

If the key sequence doesn't work there is another method that I use and has
always worked for me (even in cases where the key sequence didn't).  All you
need is a floppy disk with a bootable boot sector (yeah, all boot sectors are
not bootable, most are not). One easy way to create this special disk is with
DCFormat (a PD program), there are other programs that do it as well. A
detailed description of doing this (including how to use DCFormat to make the
disk) is attached below.

	Ray

				HARD DISKS
	   PREPARING FOR A BAD DESK ACCESSORY OR \AUTO PROGRAM
			Written by: Ray Wallace


If you own and boot from a hard disk (HD) then this may be of interest to
you. If you own a HD and don't boot from it, this procedure may remove
your fears that keep you from booting from it.

I've read panicky notes on usenet of people who have had one of three
things happen to there HD -

	The boot block on the HD became corrupted.

	A program put in the \AUTO folder was bad, or a program there got
	corrupted.

	A Desk Accessory put on the disk was bad, or an existing one got
	corrupted.

Any one of these things (and possibly others) can cause your HD either to
not complete the boot process (bombs away) and/or cause the HD to
continualy try to reboot (the ST keeps doing a reset). 

I have read a few ways of recovering from this. One recommendation was to
"NEVER boot from your hard disk to begin with" (The reason I bought my HD
was to use it in place of floppies). Another was to "boot the ST with the
HD off then turn the HD on" (This could cause more problems or possibly not
even work since you are suppose to always turn your HD on before the ST). 

The best corrective measure was one that described how to write an assembly
program which would keep the HD from booting when the ST was turned on and
put it on the boot sector of a floppy. At that point you could then run the
HD "boot" program to gain access to the HD (note that running the HD boot
program is different than booting the HD in that DA'a, \AUTO programs and
the boot sector are not run/accessed when the boot program is just run) and
then correct the problem. 

It turns out that this final solution is simpler than stated in that the
program DCFORMAT already has the capability to put such a boot sector on a
floppy with just three clicks of the button (well ok five if you count
starting the program :-). 

So not wanting to wait until I actualy had a problem with my HD to try to
find a "working" solution, I recently did the following -
	1. Formatted a floppy from the desktop.

	2. Ran DCFORMAT, clicked on the "EXECUTIBLE BOOT" button which puts
           up a set of various "boot options", then clicked on the "BYPASS
           HARD DISK" button, clicked on "WRITE IT", then clicked on "EXIT"
           which brings you back to the original DCFORMAT dialog box where
           you can click on "EXIT" to leave the program. 

	3. Created a folder called AUTO on the floppy where I copied
	   FOLDR200.PRG to.

	4. Placed all my HD utilities (especialy HDBOOT) on the floppy
	   (NOTE: Not in the \AUTO folder).

	5. Did a hard reset (power off/on) the ST with the "bootable"
           floppy in the drive. Viola! The floppy was booted, not the HD.
           That is \AUTO programs and DAs were executed from the floppy not
           the HD (just what I wanted). 

	6. Ran the HD boot program (this allows you to access the HD).
           Installed drive C. Opened drive C. Viola (again)! The files on
           the HD were then accessible. 

The last step is the same as you would always have to do if you didn't have
your HD set to auto-boot. Actualy you would have your HD boot program in
the \AUTO folder of the floppy and save the desktop (to the floppy) with
all of the HD drives/partitions installed, that way when you reset (or turn
on the ST) the HD will automaticly become accessible (but no \AUTO or DA
programs will be executed from the HD, only from the floppy). 

So now if I ever have problems booting my HD all I have to do is pop in
this special boot floppy and then fix up the HD. 

I realize that not much (if any) of this information is new to any of you
but it took me awhile to piece it all together so I thought it might be
usefull to some of you with HD's. I think this written explanation seems
more complicated than actualy making and using the floppy. 

    
    	Ray,
    
    		Well, in order to be able to dial in, I did re-init
    	my partition 0.  I spent about an hour working with the keys
    	(alt+shift+control) to no avail - so I opted for the 'long'
    	way.
    
    	It seems that the BMS boot disk (floppy) ignored the keys and
    	kept trying to boot the HD.  I tried different ways of 'fool-
    	ing' the system, but obviously, not well enough.  The kicker
    	of it all was, in the INIT code, it would "see" the HD then
    	DE-INSTALL it when I exited (this was BEFORE initing - when
    	everything was 'normal') without taking any action.  After
    	numerous "tries" I "bit the bullet" and re-inited partition 0.
    
    	Fortunately, I didn't have to 'touch' the other partitions.
    	Thanks to a note I read, originally from you I believe, I have
    	been using BACKUP to "cover my hide" and it did make things a
    	bit easier (no puns intended  :^).   
    
    	You're right, however, about finding a way to deal with this
    	other than having to do what I did.  The previous reply has
    	already been saved and will be DL'ed when I finish this.  I
    	have DC-Format v3 so I should be able to follow your instruct-
    	ions.  I had no idea that it would be this 'handy'.  I know
    	I'll want a 'bootable disk' like you have - I don't need to
    	'lock my keys in the ignition - twice' to learn to have a 
    	spare  :^)   Rest assured, your typing has not been for naught;
    	I'll be working with it shortly.
    
    					Thanks for your time and effort,
    
    							Rich

>    	It seems that the BMS boot disk (floppy) ignored the keys and
>    	kept trying to boot the HD.  I tried different ways of 'fool-
Was your HD set to autoboot? Or did you always use the floppy boot disk?

If you allways used the floppy boot disk then all you had to do was -
	Power up the system with a blank floppy disk in the drive.

	Then insert the floppy boot disk and double click on (ie: run)
	the BMS boot program that is in the \AUTO folder.

	Install a drive C desktop icon.

	The HD is now accessable, just delete the bad accessory and
	reboot normaly.

If your HD was set for autoboot then -
	You should have had a blank floppy disk in the dirve when
	booting with the CTL-ALT-SHIFT key sequence. You should NOT have
	been using the floppy boot disk.


>    	ing' the system, but obviously, not well enough.  The kicker
>    	of it all was, in the INIT code, it would "see" the HD then
>    	DE-INSTALL it when I exited (this was BEFORE initing - when
>    	everything was 'normal') without taking any action.
Are you talking about the BMS boot program here or something else?
    

How did you get to the point where you could run the partition init program?
When you were at that point, if you would have run the boot program from
\AUTO on the BMS floppy, you could have then accessed the HD (after installing
a drive C: icon) and then deleted the bad accessory.  You would not have had
to init the partition.

	Ray

     re:.2
    
    I agree with what was said in .2. However, In my case sometimes you
    have to wait until the disk A light comes on BEFORE tou hit the
    CTL-SHIFT-ALT keys. Also, you may need to have a hard disk driver in
    the auto folder on disk A.
    
    Too late for this emergency but be prepared for the next. You will
    find times you need the back door.
    
    Bill N.

     Re:-2
    	Ray,
    
    		I normally boot the HD.  I did try using the Floppy
    	for this problem.  I also had to find out about the INSTALL
    	.PRG (I believe you refered to your equivalant as HDBOOT). 
    
    	  They (BMS) have the "Auto-boot" for their disks up in the 
    	main (top level) directory on the HD and it only Auto-boots 
    	the "current" drive.
    
    	  I tried using TOS to install Drive C, once I had the system 
    	booted under floppy, but TOS gave me the error about the "non-
    	existant" device (at that particular time, I had not yet found 
    	out about the INSTALL.PRG that BMS did include: O.E. on my part -
    	and this is where I (now know) could have done things differently
    	had I known about it).
    
    	  You're right about saying once I could run the partition code
    	I was at a point where I didn't need to run it - only, I didn't
    	know it at the time.
    
    	  This has been a learning experience - to say the least... I'd
    	like to say THANKS to you for your patience while I "fumble"
    	along.
    
    
    
    Re: -1
    	Bill_Nottingham
    		Being fairly "new" to the Atari world (I've had my system 
    	almost 2 months now), I'm sure there are plenty of pieces of in-
    	formation (such as you presented) that I'm going to have to pick 
    	up on.  I thought I tried just about every way I could to make the 
    	keys work, but I may not have done it at the time you suggest.  
    	  Thanks for the thought, it will be put to use.
    
    							
    						Tnx Bill, Ray, & Bill,
    
    						         Rich