Conference 7.286::atarist

I've had a request to set the base note to be hidden.  The reason given for
the request was a concern about piracy. I have set the note hidden, but I'm
not sure if I should keep it hidden or not. I would like to get some comments
from you the users of the notes file as to what you think about it.

The summary of the base note is that the person who wrote the note is asking
if anyone "would like to exchange [ST software] on a temporary basis".

Presumably you -
		trade programs - I see no problem with this as long as the
				 ORIGINAL disk is being exchange. It seems
				 the same as selling a program.
then you -
		trade them back again after you've used them for a while -
				 This is the part (in my thinking) that seems
				 to put the proposal on the hairy edge of
				 something that invites piracy (NOTE - I in
				 no way am assuming or suggesting that
				 the poster of the orignal note has the intent
				 of pirating software).

I have a time or two thought that it might be nice that once I (or my kids)
were tired of a game that I could trade it for a game that someone else was
tired of playing and didn't want anymore. This is like selling a game your
tired of and then going and buying another used game if you havent' played
yet. But it illiminates the exchange of money.

This notes file should not, does not, and will not condone the pirating of ST
programs.  The question at hand (the topic I'm asking for comments on) is not
so cut and dry. The question is  whether the above propsal (the summary of the
base note) should be censored (left hidden or deleted) because it supports
piracy in some way or is perceived as pirating.

I hate to make a big deal out of what might be nothing. On the other hand I
don't like to ignore noters who have a concern over the content of a note.

If anyone knows of a precedence set in any of the other computer notes files,
please point me to them.

Feel free to send me comments by mail instead of replying here if you prefer
the anonymity.

And to think I always thought moderating a notes file was easy :-)

	Ray (the moderator)

    Well, I agree this is a hairy issue.  I'm not sure of the way the
    law works, but hopefully this note will attract some attention.
    
    In my opinion, this is a *VERY* important issue, and it should not
    be taken lightly.  

    
    I don't see what the fuss is about.
    
    If you accept the analogy of a published book, there is no constraint on
    my loaning my copy to someone else and it being returned to me.
    
    My local library does this sort of thing fairly regularly.
    
    If the borrower photocopies it, that person is breaking the
    copyright and must reconcile that with his/her own conscience.
    
    Brian.
    
    

Well, I'd leave it.

To me it doesn't condone pirating.  True, unscrupulous folks could
copy something they traded for and then trade back and have a copy.
But, these same unscrupulous folks
could also trade for keeps, copy something, and then trade for 
keeps again.  There is no real difference.  The proposal was not to
pirate, but to "loan" each other software games to play (original disks)
and then to return them once you've solved it, are tired of it, whatever.

As the base note didn't want to pirate (or so we must believe, there is
no indication of it), and as long as loaning someone an original
disk is not illegal, I see no reason to delete/hide it.  If loaning someone
an original disk is illegal, then of course it should go.  I don't know
what the case is.

But whatever you do would be ok, as you are the moderator.

good luck,

Chad

        First as a moderator of a few other notes files - I feel for you
        Ray!
        
        The issue gets even more contorted.  I do not condone piracy of
        software!  The problem is that this is lost sales to the software
        company and from my interpetion, not the intent of the licensing
        agreement.
        
        The anaology of the book doesn't hold because it has no such
        license agreement.  
        
        As it stands today, many large companies charge a transfer fee to
        move licensed software from one computer to another, you can't
        just borrow software.  (I no longer even pretend to understand
        what our - DEC's licensing policy is.)
        
        If we trade games, whatever, between ourselves - why would we get
        upset if our (DEC's) customers trade software - such as
        compilers, VAXnotes, DECcalc and the like?  Why did we go to all
        the trouble to develop LMF?
        
        The majority of companies in the Atari space have no problem if
        you sell or give a piece of software to another individual.  But
        they view this as a one way, one time transaction.
        
        As much as I would like to do it, I personally cannot condone or
        support such activity.
        
        Bob

    
    
    Hello,
    
    In the UK you can't lend, trade or resell books (look at the copyright
    page).  If this is the same for software I dont know ?
    
    I do not see the problem, however, if someone wants to evaluate the
    software.  Paying between 20 and 30 pounds for some software and all
    the shop will give you is a 10 minute go and you cant take the software
    back if you dont like after you bought it is not very friendly.
    
    If I want to buy some software I like to try, I did this with Xenon II
    after trying the game for some hours I thought it was worth the
    purchase.
    
    (My view anyway)
    
    Chris 
             

    To be quite honest, i'm all for it.
    
    re;-1
    
    The software is the same including 'no lending'.
    
    I look at a 'trade-off' as a exchange. Then as another exchange to
    change back.
    
    No 'lending' involved.
    
    I would have loved to do this with 80% of my software. Most of it
    is not worth spending �20 on, but the magazines always say 'My god,
    what a great game'. Then you buy it and think 'What a load of crud'
    
    My views...
    
    Lewis.
    
    PS. I would be willing to enter into this 'agreement'. 
    PPS.Mind you i will beseeling most of my stuff very soon.Will place
    a list in next week. 

    Giday'
    
    	I, like the last noter, like to try out my software before I buy
    it. If I like the software, I will spend the $40.00 to $60.00 to
    purchase it from my local vendor. I, unlike alot of people I know, will
    also read a book, borrowed from someone, and then go and purchase it
    afterwards, After all, It was obviously good enough to read it once,
    so, I might also enjoy reading it again. 
    	As for trading/borrowing/whatevering...... The software companies
    make there money by selling the product to the vendors, and in turn the
    vendors make there money by selling it to us ATARI users, at a slightly
    inflated price. So, consequently, If I sold a piece of software to say
    somebody in this notes file, wouldn't that mean that the money from my
    sale of software, would not go back to the manufacturer, thus, we may
    not a) get new updates or b) have new software developed by this
    company for the Atari due to lack of sales?
    	My point is, I guess that if I borrow a piece of software, I will
    by it, only to put more money back into the company that develops it.
    And on a lighter note, (NOT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY) nobody I know owns
    an atari anyways, and even if I could trade it with you guys in the
    states, it would a) probably not get to me, or b) cost me an arm and a
    leg to get it up here to CANADA!!!..
    
    
    Swaff -)
    

    I'm very sympathetic to the "try before you buy" argument. For the last
    couple years I've been buying my development tools from PC Connection,
    which offers for most of its items a 30-day no-questions money-back
    guarantee, WHICH LET'S YOU TRY THE SOFTWARE and still return it. I've
    returned about half of what I've tried, and the half I've kept is more
    than I would have bought if I had to plunk down $200-$400 sight unseen.
    
    I think that if it's a decent product, then you want to pay the money
    to support the developers; to get the documentation, upgrades, and
    technical support; and to not feel like a slime every time you use the
    tool.
    
    IMHO - Hoyt

    .6
    > In the UK you can't lend, trade or resell books (look at the
    > copyright page).
    
    Not true - re-read the copyright page.  You cannot lend, trade or
    resell books _in a different cover_ from its published cover.
    Otherwise all the thousands of second hand book shops would be
    breaking the law (so would libraries).
    
    Maybe we should use the analogy of record or tape libraries - they
    lend you records and tapes with the risk of you illegaly copying them.
    
    Tony.

         I am split on this issue personally.

         I don't have much money to spend on my computer since, I have
         a family now.  So I would love to be able to trade the stuff
         I have and don't use, for stuff I have never played before. 

         But I also write PD software, and hopefully, I will write
         something I would like to sell someday.  So I want people to
         buy loads of copies of anything I write (then I could buy all
	 the software I ever wanted).

	 Well, enough about me.  My understanding is that it depends
	 on what kind of licensing came with the software.  I have
	 some stuff that is Non-transferable.  That means I can't
	 resell it, give it away, lend it, or anything.

	 One thing to think about, is what if a group of people get
	 together, pool their money, and buy some games.  Is it now
	 community property?  I would assume(unless it has a single
	 CPU license) they could each take turns using it.

	 On a side note, there are places that rent software.  Aren't
	 they doing the same thing?

					 Just my 2 cents.
						Jim

    Re .-1. You can't even give it away ? I can't believe that, or rather
    I can't believe a condition like that would ever hold up in court.
    
    

    I don't believe that there is anything wrong with lending, selling
    or giving away software, with a few exceptions.
    
    First, if there are no limits stated when you buy it, it is YOUR
    property to do with as you please. This includes giving it away,
    or swapping or lending, or burning it if that is your decision.
    (I've spent a fair amount of money on software that had more value
    as kindling than as software because I couldn't try it first). 
    
    Secondly, almost all, if not all, commercial programs do have at
    least one limit, the COPYright. Notice that this states that the
    right to COPY this program is reserved to the publisher. However,
    the original copy that you own is still YOURS, as long as you don't
    make a copy. (Many programs give you permission to make copies for
    personal use, but this is another issue). When you buy a copyrighted
    program you give your implicit consent to the restrictions of the
    copyright, much as you give your implicit consent to follow driving
    laws when you get your license. 
    
    Finally, if the manufacturer wishes to limit the distribution of
    the software further they can sell it with other restrictions or
    licenses, such as a site license or whatever. This may, for example,
    restrict the use of the software to a particular CPU, or individual.
    If you agreed to this when you bought the software, then lending
    or swapping would be absolutely wrong.
    
    In summary, if the distributor does not tell me that I cannot do
    something, then it is MY property and MY decision. In other words,
    open up the base note!
    
    As an aside, the rules around books are somewhat less restrictive
    than the rules around software, even though the damage done to authors
    is greater, due to the read-once nature of a book.

re .6 

I'm curious about the illegality of lending books in the UK. 

The Public Library is a Great American Tradition.  Is there no such
thing as a public library in the UK?  I've heard of Copyright, but 
this sounds like "Readright".  Also, is there no such thing as a 
"Used Book Store"? 

>>              <<< Note 819.14 by REGENT::LOMICKA "Roy Lomicka" >>>
>>             -< question on lending and reselling books in the UK >-
>>re .6 

>>I'm curious about the illegality of lending books in the UK. 

>>The Public Library is a Great American Tradition.  Is there no such
>>thing as a public library in the UK?  
    
    Of course there is, we invented them, right? :-)
    
    
>>this sounds like "Readright".  Also, is there no such thing as a 
"Used Book Store"? 

    Again Of course there is. 
    
    
    Re the comment a few back on 'consenting to the copyright': I'm curious
    as to how your expected to honour an agreement when you don't see the
    conditions until after you've purchased.
    
    I believe this sort of concept was expressly overturned in a court
    judgement not many years ago.  
    
    
    Me, I believe that having purchased your copy your fee to do what you
    like with it (your copy not any other). If you wish to give it to
    someone, throw it away or burn it it's up to you. If you exchange it
    with someone, it's still only being used by one person. 
    
    Richard

    I don't know the details but I did hear about a court case that
    basically said shrink-wrap licensing was invalid.
    
    Chad
    

Most licensing agreements I have seen limit the use of software to the
purchaser of the software, and usually to a single use of that software
(if you have 2 machines, you can only run the program on one machine at
a time).

By this token, it is not legal for you to lend a copy to someone.  In
addition, the licensing agreements usually have stipulations limiting
backup copies for non-copy-protected software to 1 extra copy.  By lending
non-copy-protected software to someone else you will be unable to enforce
the single copy rule unless you specifically have the borrower sign a
license agreement indicating that they will not copy the software.  Even
then I would guess that it might not be legal to sub-license a piece of
software in that manner.

As a computer hardware/software manufacturer, we have a responsibility to
uphold license agreements of other vendors.  As such I think that any notes
about "lending" of software should be censored.  I realize the intent of
the individual may not be to pirate software, but that cannot be assertained
in this conference.

I would also caution would-be-pirateers that by posting any notes condoning
piracy, you are exposing yourself to potential litigation down the road.
If a software vendor discovered that a Digital conference was being used
to promote piracy of his/her software, they could potentially subpeona [sic]
Digital to produce copies of the relavents notes to use in a court case.
That in turn opens up the potential for litigation being brought against
Digital for allowing such conduct in the first place.  That would in turn
fall back to the potential of Digital taking action against the individual
condoning piracy and the moderator of the conference for not removing the
offending note.

Obviously the above scenario may never happen, but in my book it is not
worth the risk to the moderator to allow such notes to exist.  Didn't
mean to scare you Ray!  :-)

						My 2� worth,
						-Dave

    
    Hi,
    
    It's me Chris, I am the one who has had my notes file hidden.
    
    I have read through the replies and I have found that more people
    are for the idea.
    
    The thought of piracy never even entered my head,and to even think
    that I maybe trying to copy them really *^%$#@! me!
    
    My idea was on the basis of lending software to one another on a
    temporary basis, and Piracy had nothing to do with it.
                     
    
    I do not mind lending out my software, and if that person copies
    my software then it is wise not to say anything !!!!
    
    I was thinking that this would start some kind of relationship and
    also getting more out of your ST.
    I have tried backing up my copy of Xenon II because of the Virus
    and because it costa' packet!
    I know for a fact you will never be able to copy Xenon II by the
    BitMap brothers.
    
    They let you hire computer games from shops !!!!
    
    AND..
    
    
    
    
    
    If you like the game then it is not that much of a problem when
    your wage packet comes through to go and buy it .
    
    I am sorry if my idea was read wrongly, but I felt as though I should
    put my two penneth in, and just let you know that I had * NO *
    intention of Piracy,copying,seeling,re-hiring,drugs,rape etc.
    
    
    Thankyou for reading this note, but I felt as though I should let
    you know the situation.....
    
    
    
    
    Thanks
    
    Chris
    xxxxx
                    

    Re back one....
    
    
    I know for a fact that you CAN copy Xenon II.
    
    I have my own original though.(�20.00 from Boots - and worth
    each and every penny). BTW I'm now 3/4 of the way through level
    3 - any hints wouldn't go amiss (the same goes for X-Out).
    
    As for lending out s/w - If someone lends me a copy of a piece of
    s/w that I like, I'll go out and buy it for myself - just like a
    book.
    
    Martin
    

    re ; -2
    
    Chris,
    
    I wholeheartedly agree with you. I too like this idea, and if a
    game/software *is* good enough i will buy it.
    
    I think if i enjoy a game then the programmer/developers deserve
    every penny. I have been 'stung' too many times paying for software
    which is totally $%^&, and regretting it. But this is only in my
    opinion. Most of the games i have bought were reviewed, and they
    liked it, but i didn't.
    
    My 2p worth,
    
    Lewis.

Lending copies is a bad idea -- lending originals is what you should do if
you are lending...

Chad

    
    HAVE YOU READ THIS MONTHS ADDITION OF ST FORMAT?
    ************************************************
    
    Well if you haven't then go to about the middle and read :
    
    It says that there is a small firm that have started hiring original
    games for a small fee per night AND: you get all the instructions
    and everything-  Let me hear some answers now!!
    
    OR: as a wise man once said :
    
    CHEW ON THAT !!
    
    My idea was a good idea, and it is not illegal.
    
    The company that is hiring the software is doing it LEGALY
    with a permit and they are not breaking the copywrite licensing
    act ! 19 hundred and something!!
    
    Please have a read if you cop hold of a copy of ST FORMAT.
    
    
    
    Thanks for reading my message.
    
    
    
    
    
    Chris
    xxxxx
                                                       

    Chris is correct. There's nothing legally wrong about lending software.
    The act of copying it is the crime.
    
    I suppose it all boils down to whether we can be trusted not to copy
    the stuff we lend to each other. If we do, we're slitting our own
    throats since we discourage SW companies to produce stuff. If we
    don't then we have a very useful service and a way of properly
    previewing software that we have thought about buying without having to
    rely on the extremely dubious reviews in the computer press...
    
    I say unhide the base note and let's get on with running this service.
    
    
    
    				Jamie.

I'd agree that lending softwrae is ok as long as you lend the ORIGINAL disk
and do not use a copy of the lent software in ANY way while you don't have
the original disk in your possesion.  To be really legal under some of the
license agreements you must delete all copies you have (including all backup
disks and any copies installed onto a hard disk) until you get the original back.

Of course the above appplies to the person you lent the software to also. 
I.e., unless you have the original you aren't allowed to use the software in
any way and shouldn't have any copies either.

	Just a something to think about.  I have a game Terrorpods that 
	was asked about on the net here.  When I dug out the manual to
	give help on how to use it, I found the following:

The product TERRORPODS its program code manuals and all associated product
materials are the copyright of Psygnosis Limited who reserve all rights therein.
These dosuments program code and other items may not in whole or part be copied
reproduced hired lent or transmitted in any way nor translated or reduced to any
electronic medium or machine readable form without prior consent in writing from
Psygnosis Limited.

	I typed this in just the way it appears on the back of the
	instructions.  I hope that this doesn't violate any of their
	copyrights.  Now, I havn't asked a lawyer about the legality of
	their claims, but this is an example of what you might find.

						Jim Patterson

    
    This is one is really for Ray (the Moderator).......
    
    Ray, PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Can we start some kind of association or club that allows to lend
    software to one another on a temporary basis.....
    
    Come on chaps, if you agree then please let Ray now and that way
    we all get more out of our Atrai ST computer - Mind you ....
    If it makes life easier then we can have cetain rules e.g.
    
    1) Original software to be swapped only.
    2) An agreement of some kind - only being able to borrow the software
       of for a certain amount of time _ (1 WEEK)
    
    3) The person has to work for Digital and has to give full details
    about his / herself so that no piracy,stealing,copies, or drugs
    are involved (Forget the drugs, that was a joke !!)
    
    I will open another conference and I will call it *Brainwave into
    the unknown part II* And I think that it would be a good idea if
    some kind of association is made.....
    
    
    
    PLEASE give me your views I (& a few others ) Need them !!!
    
    WHAT DO YOU THINK RAY ??????????????
    
    
    
    
    
    Thanks for reading my note...
    
    Chris
    xxxxx
             
    

    RE .25
    
    But there's nothing to say you can't GIVE it away to someone else.
    That's what you're doing in effect; giving away your software to
    someone in exchange for an item of their own. The fact that you may
    perform a similar transaction at a later date (albeit involving the
    same pieces of software) is irrelevant.
    
    
    RE .26
    
    Why do you feel you need the nod of the moderator to go ahead and
    create your own conference "ST_SWAPS" ? Just do it. If people are
    interested then the conference will take off, if they're not then
    just delete the file.
    
    If you decide to do this and you want any help just pop over.
    
    
    Cheers,
    
    
    				Jamie.

             <<< BOLT::MAY14$DUA1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]ATARIST.NOTE;1 >>>
                       -< Atari's 68000 based systems. >-
================================================================================
Note 861.14                       ST SWAP-SHOP                          14 of 14
OLDTMR::WALLACE                                      23 lines  10-MAY-1990 16:11
                             -< The verdict is in >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I realy hate to have to make a decision on this but it's dragged on long
enough. Based on a lot of factors including -

	A lot of concernes by the readers of this conference.

	My personal opinions on the adverse affect that loaning software
	has on a Publishers business and therefore on the development
	(or lack thereof) of more programs by publishers.

	DEC's Personal Policies and Procedures.

I have decided that the two base notes in question will remain hidden
and/or removed all together. More specificly I ask that no other notes be
written in this conference that solicit the loaning of software.

Please note that I am not making any statement as to whether loaning software
is legal or not. Only that it will not be condoned in this conference.

And please do NOT post a note pointing to a conference that is set up for
the purpose of loaning software, it will just be deleted. Whether you set up
such a conference is up to you but don't announce it's exsitance here.

	Ray (the moderator)