Conference 7.286::atarist

    You're asking this in the ST notesconference so expect a biased
    reply. 
    
    The ST and amiga seem pretty evenly matched to me, the Amigas default
    user interface is better than the st and software is generally the
    same price. The Amiga has better sound and more colours I belive,
    but the 520STFM is cheaper.
    
    You could consider the new STE that seems to remedy the diferences
    and has 1Mb of memory (see notes in this conf).
    
    I am sure there would be a holy war on this if this were a combined
    16bit conf.
    
    Les
    
    PS What timezone are you in? 
    

    
    I'm in Scotland so work it out for yourself.
    
    Thanks very much for your comments but I'm still undecided. I'll get a
    good demo in the shop and probably make my mind up there and then.
    Both machines are priced at 399 POUNDS so pricewise there evenly
    matched (The Atari pack does come with much more software though)
    
    Anyone else have any advice ?
    
    
    						George

    
    George,
    
    It all depends on the MAJOR use you are going to put the beast to.
    
    If it is character stuff, a lot of WP, then the ST with the MONO
    monitor cannot be beaten.
    
    If you want games first, art second and wp third then go for a amiga.
    
    The amiga takes a lot of disk juggling with workbench, and it isnt
    perfect to read 80 charcter text, for LONG periods of time.
    
    P.S. I SAW Amigas and ST at 330 pounds each for the batpack and power pack
    yesterday at the box shifters show at ALLY pally, The punters were
    still queing to get in when I left at 3:30. I saw hundreds of ST's and
    Amigas being carried out of the show in the ration of two amigas to one
    st.
    
    However the box most people carried out above all else appeared to be
    the Star LC10, that was down to 130 ish (pounds)
    
    Cheers for now.
    
    Pat K.

    
    Where can I get one in scotland for 330 pounds ?
    
    The cheapest price i've been quoted is 389 pounds which is only 10
    pounds cheaper than the list price. Hardly a bargain !!!
    After speaking to a few people i've decided that i'll probably go for
    the Amiga as im looking for a graphics tool and games machine.
    
    							George
           
           Sorry folks but a man's gotta do, what a man's gotta do !

    
George,

    Being a ST owner, for quite a few years, and based upon how I've seen
how Atari Corp, handled the ST (particularly in the US), I'd say go for the
Amiga.

Bill Powers

PS - If you know a person at your site named Jim Hamilton, tell him Bill Powers
     says hi.  

    

    re: .3
    
    Pat,

>    The amiga takes a lot of disk juggling with workbench, and it isnt

??? are you talking about a single floppy drive system or what?  Having
never used a ST much, I'm curious what the disk juggling difference is.
I use a 512K Amiga 1000 with 2 floppy drives, finally bought a third drive
for it.
    
>    P.S. I SAW Amigas and ST at 330 pounds each for the batpack and power pack
>    yesterday at the box shifters show at ALLY pally, The punters were
>    still queing to get in when I left at 3:30. I saw hundreds of ST's and
>    Amigas being carried out of the show in the ration of two amigas to one
>    st.
    
Could you translate that?  What is/are batpack, power pack, box shifters,
ALLY pally, and punters.

Sounds like a great show, I've never seen a show in the New England area
where hundreds of STs or Amigas were sold (just pc clones).  Sigh.. how
do we make that happen here?

-Dave

    
    Hi Dave,
    
    A mate of mine bought a B2000, cost loads of money, (single drive
    system). He had a disk with a desktop environment on it,  To load a
    application program took what seemed to be a large number of disk
    shuffles, to get the desktop oin and to do a directrory and too load
    the program. The St desktop is Rommed.
    
    Othe r questions. In the UK there are special sales promotion packages
    from both ATARI and AMIGA. THe package is a gaudy box, with for the
    (amiga a BATMAN logo on it), The package consists of the Amiga 500 and
    a number of games including BATMAN.
    
    The ATARI pack is similar, but is called the POWER PACK, it is
    advertised as an ST with High tension leads coming out of either side
    of the CPU, and creating a big electric arc between the ends of the
    leads over the ST. Again there are a number 20? games given away inb
    the price.
    
    There are also Professional packs with application software thrown in,
    ST write, a data base and spreadsheet. cant remember the names.
    
    THE ST and AMIGA world in the UK is going CRAZY, they are both being
    advertised in prime (childrens TV time), quite heavily. Every home
    computer mag you pick up has dozens of box shifters, advertising this
    deal and that deal. I dont know whether in the long run it does
    anything to encourage business use, allthough I suppose a very small
    percentage of the machines will get used for something other than
    games, and perhaps a few more people will be converted to 68000
    computing instead of messy dos!
    
    ALLY PALLY, is a old exhibition hall in North London its real name is
    Alexander Palace. It is a neo gothic set of buildings. The main hall
    has a marvellous curved glass roof, like the Crystal palace what got
    burnt down years ago.
    
    Box shifters, A derogatory term refering to the Mail order and show
    computer retailers who know NOTHING about the product they sell, They
    shift (sell) computers and peripherals in their packing cases, ie
    boxshifters. I saw several stands at the show that had NO furniture or
    counter at all. There was just a wall of Amigas and ST's and printers
    piled 3 feet high in a square, with the traders standing inside with
    two mobile phones and a Credit card imprinter. (The phones to check
    your credit worthiness.) In the centre was a pile of STAR printers 10
    feet taLL. The prices are scrawled on cards, throughout the day, they
    are adjusted to complete with the other shifters. The motto is they
    dont want to take any stock home with them. Its quite scary!!!
    
    Cheers
    
    Pat K
    Cheers
    
    Pat Keane  

    Well done George, you made the right choice. - no flames please,
    personal opinion.
    
    Where are you ? Livingston ? Aberdeen ? South Queensferry ? (I guess
    your not in Ayr anyway)
    
    If you're ever in Ayr give me a shout, there is a group of 8 or
    10 of us here with Amigas, loadsa PD, demos etc. bring some blank
    disks.....
    
    
    				Alan Thomson
    
    					823-4187

    re:.7
    
    Thanks, Pat.  I thought it might be something like that.  The Amiga's
    desktop is in Rom too, but the default is to boot up into a CLI,
    not Workbench.  It needs a LOADWB command to get it to startup the
    desktop.  The catch is that applications assume they have access
    to the contents of the workbench disk (CLI commands, fonts, device
    drives, loadable libraries, etc.), not just the stuff in the Rom.
    The desktop is considered an application, it also hits the workbench
    disk for stuff not in the Rom, like the programs to Format or Copy
    a disk.
    
    A single drive amiga is ok for bootable games, but beyond that you
    really need a second disk drive to preserve your sanity.
    
    -Dave
    
    

    It's after the fact, but maybe it'll help someone in the future...
    The article is from the comp.sys.amiga newsgroup, but it's pretty 
    impartial. Definitely worth a read if you're in the market.
    ------
**************************
,BUY
From: uunet!Sun.COM!cmcmanis (Chuck McManis)
Subject: a comparison of PC's... which one to buy

This posting is an effort on my part to demonstrate why
these arguments are pointless. I try to show that the Amiga 500 and
the 1040 ST are essentially the same design with different compromises.
When all is said and done they are the same computer. You as a reader
look at the two machines, look at the way the designers compromised,
and pick the one that *you* like better. Also be aware that your
choice is only the better choice from your perspective, others will
disagree and they are also correct from *their* perspective.

Take the following comments from Peter as an example :
In article <[email protected]> (Peter Ted Szymonik) writes:
>                                   ...I'd say Atari will have no
> problem reaching the million mark next year if it hasn't already
> done so! ...

Given the "magicalness" of a million machines (see the PS/2, Apple Mac
announcements when they broke a million) it is clear that Atari (or
Commodore for that matter) will be shouting to everyone that can read
(especially developers) to let them in on the good news. Witness
Commodore's hyper sensitivity as they get closer to that number.

>  Also, I'm sure that a good chunk of those Amiga sales
> were the 500 which was probably bought primarily as a game machine
> while the majority of STs out there are 1040's which have much
> greater utility.

This is an especially wonderful example of why debating machine merits
is a waste of time. Here is a guy who obviously is very proud of his
computer ownership attempting to slander the "competition" with absolutely
no facts at all. If he understood the Amiga computer line he would realize
that the Amiga 500 *is* the Atari 1040 ST competition. Line up the features
side by side and even a third grader could tell you they were the same
machine, to wit :
                         1040 ST           Amiga 500
                        ----------        ----------
Processor                68000             68000
"Main" Memory            1 Meg             1 Meg
Screen Resolution        320 X 200         350 X 200
  various #'s of         640 X 200         700 X 200
  colors.                640 X 480         700 X 440
Disk Drive               720K              880K
Serial Port              Yes               Yes
Parallel Port            Yes               Yes
MIDI Port                Yes               No
DMA Port                 Yes               No
Expansion Bus            No                Yes
Hard Disk Available      Yes               Yes
Memory Expansion Avail   Yes               Yes
Max Memory               4 MB              9 Mb
Blitter                  No*               Yes
Audio                    Yes               Yes
-----
* Blitter optional according to some things I have seen

And the astute readers will note that a.) Prices are different, b.)
Implementations are different, and c.) Neither machine is the "better"
machine to everyone. In terms of hardware capabilities they offer
the same functions.

The question you ask are "What are the decisions the designers made?"
Take MIDI for example. The Amiga does not have a MIDI port, the designers
did not decide to include one. It is easy to turn the Amiga serial port into
a MIDI port but it will cost you the user extra cash. *You* decide which
decision is better for *you*. Same thing with a hard disk. Atari builds
in a DMA port that makes connecting a SCSI device easier, Commodore provides
and expansion bus that you can connect a hard disk controller to. Here
the Atari designer may have said "Well, either we offer a hard disk
interface or an expansion interface, which will it be? Gee most of
our users will just want a hard disk so lets offer that." Whereas the
Amiga designer might have said "Lets offer an expansion port so that
other things beside a hard disk can be easily connected here." The
Atari decision makes for cheaper hard disks, the Commodore decision
makes for greater flexibility. Which do *you* prefer? *You* decide and
that makes that machine best for you. When one evaluates both machines
you will notice that the Commodore decisions tended to flexibility even
when it raised the cost, whereas Atari's leaned toward keeping the
price down at the cost of flexibility. None of these decisions make
one computer "better" than the other, they just make the computers
different.

Of course none of this means anything to someone who's ego is tied up
in the computer they own. That type of person will get just as hyper
about whether or not a BMW is better than a Mercedes or a Ford is better
than a Mercury. The important point to remember is that when you read
an article from someone who really likes their computer and thinks anyone
who doesn't like their computer obviously has a learning disability, you
have to understand that they are *correct*. This is how they think from
*their* perspective. There is no need to point out how their perspective
disagrees strongly with *your* perspective. That is because both of your
perspectives will disagree with everyone elses perspective. The end result
is a couple of thousand articles describing the authors perspective and
views. If you could condense them into a single survey message you might
et the Signal to Noise ratio up above .5 but I doubt it.

Well thats *my* perspective,

--
--Chuck McManis
uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis   BIX: cmcmanis  ARPAnet: [email protected]
These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
----------------
>From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Atari vs. Amiga: what to buy?

ATARI VS. AMIGA: WHAT TO BUY?

  * the bottom line is -- whatever you like best. *
  but here are some thoughts:

WORK/SCHOOL OS features:
========================

  What kind of environment are you using at work/school? It is
  Likely Multi-tasking. (VAX VMS, UNIX, ?)

  - (AMIGA & ST) If VMS, I don't know of any VMS look-alikes for
    either machine. there is a PD editor (TVX) that can be configured
    to look like the VMS EDT editor I think... I know it can be made
    to look like VI and emacs/jove/uemacs... (unix).

  - (AMIGA) If unix at work,... unix editor PD look-a-likes "vi" and
    "emacs" are available. (They are also available on the ST).

  - (ST) If unix at work, then note that an ST version of MINIX
    has gone to Prentice Hall for distribution (out in Sept? - check
    comp.os.minix on when). You are familiar with MINIX? It is Version
    7 unix look alike muli-tasking OS, comes with compiler and
    unix-behaving tools.

  - (AMIGA) As you know the Amiga has multi-tasking built in, so it you
    can handle a different interface from the one at work, but are
    used to multi-tasking, you are already set.

  - (ST) UNIX? Today *now* there is a nice PD shell on the  ST (gulam)
    that looks a lot like the unix shell with many of the
    commands. The editor is emacs-like, and you can pause the
    editor, escape to the shell, compile a program, then bring
    the editor back to the fore ground (via "fg" a-la unix). Not
    multi-tasking. Context switching, but it is the unix look and feel.

  - Note: Amiga and ST can run MSDOS stuff with appropriate add-on's.
    ST cam also run MAC stuff with appropriate add-on's.

MIDI:
=====

  The ST came with midi's built in and this has generated a lot of
ST midi software.  Buy a copy of STart magazine.  There are always adds
in that artist-oriented magazine for music editors, and multiple other midi
programs.  I do not know what midi stuff is available on the AMIGA.  I
think there is a large library of midi software on the PC market.  You
may wish to look here too...

Final suggestions:
  1. Get several machine specific magazines on both computers.
Try to stay away from those published by the machine manufacture; they
tend to be censored and over-hyped: "See how great we are!!!!!!!!".

  2. Please try before you buy. - you may hate the feel of the
     keyboard.

*BOTH* good computers, you probably can't go wrong what ever you
choose.  To be fair, I do not own an Amiga. I own 2 Commodors (the
VIC-20 & C64) am the happy owner of 1 Atari (the ST).

I will not suggest either computer over the other.  That is a personal
preference.  A choice only you can make.  My experience with both
companys is about the same.  They are probably on a par with the rest of
the retail computer industry.
--
---> [email protected]
--
----------------
>From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 500 or 2000 ?

>My next question is this:
>should I buy an amiga 500 or an amiga 2000?
>Can someone give me the pro's and con's of the two machines?

Ok, let me give it a try,  The 2000 comes with 512K more than the 500 but
I have seen 512K expansion for the 500 priced under $150.
You can have IBM compatibility with the 2000 but not with the 500.
The 2000 costs more $$$ but it is a little less expensive to expand.
The 2000 is bigger than the 500.
If you expand with the 500 you need alot of space.
The 500 is about $700 cheaper if you get a 1 meg 500.
The 2000 is now selling for $1499.
The 500 is now selling for $649.

Did I miss anything? I believe those are all the diffrences.  Hope I made
things easier rather than harder.

[email protected]
*************************************************************************