Conference 7.286::atarist

What you are asking is possible, it's just a small matter of programming.

Most difficult:
	Write a "server" program for the PC, and a device driver for the
	ST, so that accesses by the ST get transmitted via parallel port
	to the server for processing.

	Device drivers for the ST are not THAT hard, and the hard disk format
	is the same as MSDOS.  The commands you need are "read sector"
	and "write sector", and not much more.

Not as hard:
	If you use a SCSI hard drive, buss together the hard drive and
	both the ST and the PC on the SCSI bus.  You'll need a DMA port
	to SCSI adaptor, about $100 (Best electronics has the ICD on
	sale.)  This should just plain work.  Turn off the computer
	you're not using.


Easiest:
	Get the TCP/IP package that the ham radio operators use, and
	copy files back and forth with FTP.

    Beeing an active ham radio operator and also owning an atari st
     a n d  an ibm at, i'm interested in the tcp/ip package mentioned
    in this note.
    Please Jeff, could you explain that more detailed or give me a pointer
    where to find more about this ??
    
    Thanks in advanve ...
    
    Helmut  ( DJ1IP )

    Thanks for the advice...but what is TCP/IP?  I have heard of SCSI
    devices, but (this may be a silly question) how do I know my 40
    MB hard drive on the XT is a SCSI drive?
    
    My tendancy is toward the hard route and write a device driver on
    the ST (fine) but what about the XT side?  Don't I have to write
    a device driver for it also?
    
    ANYONE WHO CAN ASSIST ME PLEASE LEAVE A MESSAGE OR CALL ME AT DTN
    631-7257.
    
    thanks
    Lyndon

    TCP/IP is a networking protocol suite not entirely unlike DECnet, but
    in the public domain and implemented on many, many computers.  It was
    developed for the ARPAnet and caught on.
    
    The Atari version is available from my account at
    
    DELNI::USER$27:[GOLDSTEIN.HR]NET_ST_NET.ARC
    
    also USERMAN.DOC from that account for (not very good) instructions.
    This was designed for ham radio applications and supports SLIP and AX25
    over the serial line and MIDI ports.  The NET.TOS executable includes
    FTP (file transfer), TELNET(terminal), SMTP (mail transfer), PING
    (echo) and a few other goodies.
        fred (k1io)

    Just to clarify :   The filename in fred's reply is  NET_ST_NEW.ARC
                                                                  ^
                                                                  |
    
    btw. question to fred : What about software for my pk232<-->atari ??
    
    -Helmut ( dj1ip )

    I don't understand the question about software between the pk232 and
    the Atari.  The PK232 and Atari communicate using KISS mode, which
    encapsulates AX.25 inside SLIP frames.  The PK232 must have the KISS
    mode (it's been in the ROMs since the 3/87 release, I think).
    
    Wireline connections usually use SLIP.  There may also be SLFP
    (whatever that is) or some other odd protocols in this package; I
    haven't got enough information to know exactly what's in there!  And of
    course subsequent releases will probably have different options.

    Sorry for beeing inaccurate with my question ( what about software
    between pk232<--->atari ? ) .
    I simply wanted to know, wether there is some public domain software
    for a general communication-programm between the pk232 and the atari
    to simplify the usage of the pk232. 
    I've seen such a programm for ibm-pc but that wasn't public domain.
    
    Thank you for your efforts ...
    
    -Helmut ( DJ1IP )

    Ok, it looks like after reading some of the replies to my question,
    I am going to try out TCP/IP to allow me to utilize the PC hard
    disk from the ST.  BUT what do I use on the PC?  I am guessing that
    I should use some form of TCP/IP on the PC?  Will I get to use both
    my floppies and the hard drive on the PC from the ST?  I know if
    we all get together and discuss this, we can get it to work!  Could
    we use the DMA port on the ST to be wired to the hard drive controller
    on the PC?  I am willing to modify my PC just so I can get this
    this to work... besides, we can get to learn a little more about
    our ST's.
    
    thanks
    Lyndon
    

>    Ok, it looks like after reading some of the replies to my question,
>    I am going to try out TCP/IP to allow me to utilize the PC hard
>    disk from the ST.  BUT what do I use on the PC?  I am guessing that

This won't solve your problem.

The TCP/IP package talked about here can be compiled to run on either a
PC or the Atari, and you would therefore use the same program at each
end.  You'd need the right C compiler for the PC end, unless Fred has
an executable lying around somewhere.  HOWEVER, this works well only if
you have adequete disk space on BOTH machines, and simply wish to copy
files back and forth between them.  This will NOT solve the general
problem of using the PC's hard drive from the Atari, and will NOT let
you avoid buying a hard drive.

What you want to do is the following:

- Connect your Atari parallel port to a bidirectional parallel port on the
PC.  Study the Atari parallel port hardware until you are sure you
understand the operation control lines fully.  Connect the control lines
in such a way that you will be able to stobe the data and flow control
the data in each direction.

- Write some test programs that move data between the two machines using
this connection.  Ultimately, you will want to have a protocol where the
Atari end requests a data transfer of some kind (read or write) and the
PC responds.

- Once you are happy with the ability of the test program to move data
around, you write a "rwabs" server at the PC end.  This is a program
that listens on the parallel port for a request to send or accept a
block of disk data, and responds accordingly.  Modify the ST end of the
test program to issue commands of this form.  The request should be
something like

	drive letter, starting block number, read/write

- Once you are sure you can read and write absolute block numbers on the
PC's disk using this server, write a hard disk drive for the ST that
uses these commands to implement Rwabs() and Getbpb().

Because the file systems are the same, you shouldn't have to do anything
else to make this work.

It sounds like a fun project.  I might think about doing this for Atari
to Atari.  Once I get my Stacy, I will want to be able to quickly move
files back and forth.

The pair of programs called PMFS and PMFSU may be what you are looking for.
PMFS runs on the ST and is the driver code for the "disk drive" P: (hard
coded). PMFSU is the program for the "host" (the U is for unix) end of things.
PMFSU is a  virtual disk which communicates over a serial line to the driver
(PMFS) on the ST. 

So if you start up PMFS on the ST and PMFSU on the host (PC/XT in your case)
you can access drive P: like any other drive on the ST (ie:copy to and from,
edit files on etc...). Currently it does not allow you to access the files "on
your host" (ie: files you have created using your host normally are not
accessible from the ST) it only allows you to access files that you have
written/copied to the virtual drive P:.

The next version (which Paul was suppose to mail me this week but has not
arived) will have support for copying files between the virtual disk and the
rest of the file system on the host.

Paul only distributes the executible for the ST side but distributes the C
source for the host side. The only thing which needs to change in PMFSU.C (the
host code) when porting to a non-unix system is setting the routine which sets
up the serial line for raw data (ie: turn off ^S^Q flow control, etc..).

Currently PMFSU creates a fixed size file on the host based on the size of
virtual disk you want. In the next version the virtual disk file on the host
grows and shrinks based on how much space you are actualy using in the virtual
disk.

I can upload PMFS.PRG (the ST end) if you are interested. Also if you want to
take a look at the code for the host side you can copy PMFSU.C and PMFSU.DOC
from OLDTMR::$1$DUA8:[WALLACE.PUBLIC.ST].

I've added some changes for use on the VAX/VMS but I have not tested the
changes yet.

FYI: Paul L. Moreau (the author) posted this stuff on usenet, so you may have
seen it already.

	Ray

    I'm also very interested in this kind of host for my Atari ST. Owning
    an IBM PC AT, it would be nice to have the Atari end ( PMFS.PRG
    ) on the Enet. 
    
    Btw. do you know, wether there is a VMS and/or a MS-DOS host software
    available ??
    
    I already downloaded the PMFSU stuff you mentioned before, but I
    wonder, if it compiles without problems under VMS.
    
    So thanks in advance for putting the Atari end on the Enet
    
    Helmut_trying_to_find_a_real_challenge_for_his_AT
    

>    an IBM PC AT, it would be nice to have the Atari end ( PMFS.PRG
>    ) on the Enet. 
I forgot to bring this in with me today, I'll try to remember tomorow and make
it available. I just looked through old usenet news articles but the PMFS
posting has been purged from the server.
    
>    Btw. do you know, wether there is a VMS and/or a MS-DOS host software
>    available ??
As I said I have made the changes to PMFSU to compile and run on VAX/VMS. It
does compile but I have been busy till wee hours of the morning with other
things and have not had time to test the VMS implementation. If someone does
test it let me know if it works. As far as I know it has not been ported to
MS-DOS. If someone gives me the lines of code for changing the serial line
from COOKED to RAW and back again I will add it to the sources and make sure
it gets back to the original author for inclusion in future upgrades.
    
>    I already downloaded the PMFSU stuff you mentioned before, but I
>    wonder, if it compiles without problems under VMS.
Yes (if you got it from my directory on OLDTMR::), see above.    

	Ray

    I have the UUENCODED distribution of this, if you can't find it; I have
    the second posting made to comp.sys.atari.st.
    
    Now, in theory, since the filesystems on the IBM PC and the ST are
    compatible, you should be able to replace the file-io section of PMFS
    with just reads and writes to the PC's physical device... then the PC
    and the ST are sharing the very same filesystem. Back up the disk first
    :-)
    
    Other enhancements that could be made could use the parallel port
    instead of the serial port, or directly clocking the serial port...
    				- hbm

    Hi,
    could you please make available the beforementioned UUENCODED
    distribution on the Enet ?
    
    Thanks in advance ...
    
    Helmut_warming_up_his_AT
    

    It is now in:
    
    	fortsc::delivery:[messenger.public]pmfs_atari.uue
    
    It's the whole netnews message, so use a text editor to remove the
    dross from the top. Enjoy!
    				- hbm