Conference 7.286::atarist

    Can someone describe this keyboard with a little detail?
    
    						Thanks,
    						-Dave

    Re .0:
    
    For someone not at home in Eastern Mass. but who will be in the Boston
    area shortly for a few days could you post directions here to the
    Caldor store?
    
    Thanks!

	Casio MT240 features:
    	4 Octaves (49 notes) mid-size keyboard
    	10 or 5 polyphonic
    	stereo
    	20 preset sounds (210 sound Tone Bank)
    	20 rhythms and Casio Chord
    	1250 notes real-time memory
    	Midi In and Out
    	Output/headphone jack
    
    
    	I bought a CT640, midi documentation is poor.  Couldn't get
    anything out of Casio.  Have to figure out all the control codes
    by playing around with the software.  I use Dr. T's  MRS software.
    
    
    Norbert
    

	I bought two 5 pin DIN cords from Radio Shack for the midi ports
    for $4.99 each.  They work with my CT640.
    
    Norbert
    

You really should only use MIDI cords with MIDI equipment.  I don't know 
the details but the hook-ups are not exactly the same as a standard
DIN 5-pin cable as I understand it.  Anyway, MIDI cables aren't expensive.
HOSA 5' MIDI cable is 4.95 at Daddy's Junky Music.  Acton Music has
Audi Technica MIDI cables in lots of two for a reasonable price too.

Chad

Why?

Only two of the five wires on the connector are actually used, and I
haven't even noticed any polarity sensitivity to it.  The 5ma loop
technique is immune to most noise and interference too, so you only
need shielding if you have a problem with the Midi signals radiating
noise into other equipment.  I'd think just about anything that fits in
the hole and conducts electricity should be an adequete cable for Midi.

I stick pairs of 5-pin DIN's on the ends of 4-conductor phone wire, and
it works first time every time.  I tie a string around the designated
"midi in" connector, at each end, so that I can reliably get the IN/OUT
connections right.

    
    
    I've got tons of the Rat Shack din cables in my recording studio
    linking the midi gear.  There is NO difference.  Except price.
    
    Ralph
    
    

    Yep.  I read from a few places warning against using regular 5 pin
    DIN cable for MIDI ports, but I am not convinced that they can get
    you in trouble.  There are pins that are not used out of the 5 pins
    in the MIDI ports, the extra wires in the cable will not hurt!
    
    Norbert

> ... except price

yeah, MIDI cables seem to be the cheaper

4.99 vs 4.95  :-)

Acton Music has for $20/bag 6 3' cables.  They are having a 50% cable sale
soon (during national guitar week (month?)) so that translates to < $2 a
cable.  3' cables are great inside of racks as they connect the gear and
don't leave a lot of extra hanging to tangle.  I got a bag at 50% off
at the Alesis/Tascam clinic the other night.  Also, if I remember correctly,
their normal 5'length cables are about $5 each (Audio TEchnica cables) so
at %50 discount...

As you might have surmised, I have just obtained an MT240 keyboard.

I'm sorry but I have thrown out the ad which probably lists the Caldor stores
in this area. I would guess that there are about ten - the store I bought at
is in Westboro, Mass near the Marlboro DEC facility.

As to specs...
Perhaps you'd like some info on the MIDI implementation.

The manual has two pages on MIDI.
MIDI data transmit/receive
This unit is capable of transmitting/receiving the following MIDI data.
<Receiving>
Note on/off on channels 1,2 and 3
Program change 0-29 on channels 1,2 and 3 - 0-19 on channel 4
Sustain on/off on channels 1,2 and 3

<Transmitting>
Note on/off on channel 1
Program change 0-19 on all four channels
Clock

The Program Change is to change preset tones on channels 1,2 and 3 and to
change auto-rhythms on channel 4.

The following tones can be utilized when receiving MIDI program numbers 20
through 29.

	20 honky-tonk piano	25 harp
	21 marimba		26 synth celesta
	22 oboe			27 synth clavi
	23 trumpet		28 fantasy
	24 strings 2		29 miracle

<EXAMPLE CONNECTION 1>
[MT240 in/out hooked to another MIDI keyboard using CH 1 only]
Transmits/Receives MIDI messages as a single keyboard (6-note poly)

<EXAMPLE CONNECTION 2>
[MT240 in/out kooked to a MIDI sequencer using all four channels and clock]
Splits keyboard into 3 sections, a 6-note poly section, a 4-note poly section
and a 2-note poly section for use as a multiple sound source. The tone of
each channel can be freely changed by program change message. Only program
change message can be received on channel 4.

Use as a MIDI percussion sound source

It is possible to use this keyboard as a MIDI percussion sound source, as
all percussion instrument sounds are assigned independent MIDI note number,
as listed below;

	Note number	Sound
1	36/38		bass drum 1/2
2	40/41		snare drum 1/2
3	43		gated snare drum
4	45		rim shot
5	47/48		closed hihat 1/2
6	50/52		open hihat 1/2
7	53/55/57/59	crash cymbal 1/2/3/mixed
8	54/56/58	synth. cymbal 1/2/3
9	60/62		ride cymbal 1/2
10	61/63		gong 1/2
11	64/65/67/69/71	tom 1/2/3/4/mixed
12	66/68/70	synth. tom 1/2/3
13	72/74		cow bell 1/2
14	73/75		triangle open/mute
15	76/77/79/81	timbales high mute/high/low/mixed
16	78/80/82	computer game sound 1/2/3
17	83/84		agogo high/low
18	86/88/89/91/93	conga high mute/high/middle/low/mixed
19	95/96		clave high/low

I also have a one page MIDI implementation chart which indicates that
Aftertouch, pitch bender, system exclusive, system common, and aux messages are
not implemented. It is confusing to me what it says about velocity and note
numbers. It seems to say that it will transmit note numbers 36-84 and recognize
note numbers 0-127 but true voice is 36-96 and others are transposed.

The only program I have right now is a PD Music Construction Set player with
four songs. It sounded pretty good and I was able to select the tone from the
keyboard while the song was playing.

There are no keyboard controls regarding MIDI other than MIDI/not MIDI.

    Right, the 2 pages and 1 separate sheet of info explaining the MIDI
    feature is not enough (at least that is how it is with the one that
    comes with my CT640).  That sounds like the same as the one that
    comes with the MT240.  I called CASIO in Chicago (I think) two times
    getting  info, each time they sent me the same stupid sales release 
    bulletin type document.  They were absolutely useless (Wonder if we 
    have to call Japan to get that??!!)
    
    Norbert
    

There is a discussion of MIDI cables and differences between MIDI cables
from different manufacturers (can be extrapolated to 5-pin DIN etc) and problems
related for those intrested in NOVA::COMMUSIC  note 776 and first few replies
as well as note 1333

This notesfile is dedicated to computer music (COMMUSIC) and has evolved
into the MIDI notesfile predominately though some discussion of computer
generated music occasionally takes place.

KP7 and all that jazz.

    Re: .8
    
    Sometimes the cables can get you into trouble.  I think Yamaha had
    some slightly non-standard implementations.  Check in the COMMUSIC
    file as mentioned in .12, as I think those differences are noted
    in there.
    
    						-Dave

> [MT240 in/out kooked to a MIDI sequencer using all four channels and clock]
> Splits keyboard into 3 sections, a 6-note poly section, a 4-note poly section
> and a 2-note poly section for use as a multiple sound source. The tone of
> each channel can be freely changed by program change message. Only program
> change message can be received on channel 4.

    Actually, what the above means is that if you use a multi-track
    sequencer, the MT240 will play back three separate parts (all notes can
    be in the same range, this feature is not a keyboard "split" feature).
    Each part of course can have its own timbre.  Also note that you get 2
    more notes over MIDI than you can get from the keyboard!!! One thing
    that does *not* work via MIDI is the "tone mix" function that lets you
    layer voices.
    
    Also, if you want to use the auto-rhythm with your sequencer, the
    MT-240 *must* be the master clock, it will not sync to external
    MIDI clock. 
    
> I also have a one page MIDI implementation chart which indicates that
> Aftertouch, pitch bender, system exclusive, system common, and aux messages 
> are not implemented. It is confusing to me what it says about velocity and 
> numbers. It seems to say that it will transmit note numbers 36-84 and recog-
> nizes note numbers 0-127 but true voice is 36-96 and others are transposed.

    What this means is that as a 49 note keyboard, it transmits 36-84
    (49 notes).  It responds to notes over MIDI one octave *above* its
    own range.  Stuff from 97-127 gets wrapped over into the top octave
    (85-96), stuff from 0-35 gets wrapped into the bottom octave (36-47).
    Velocity transmitted is always 63 (half of the 0-127 range allowed
    by MIDI) and any incoming velocity is ignored.

> It is possible to use this keyboard as a MIDI percussion sound source, as
> all percussion instrument sounds are assigned independent MIDI note number,
> as listed below;

> 	Note number	Sound
> 1	36/38		bass drum 1/2
> 2	40/41		snare drum 1/2
> 3	43		gated snare drum
> 4	45		rim shot
> 5	47/48		closed hihat 1/2
> 6	50/52		open hihat 1/2
> 7	53/55/57/59	crash cymbal 1/2/3/mixed
> 8	54/56/58	synth. cymbal 1/2/3
> 9	60/62		ride cymbal 1/2
> 10	61/63		gong 1/2
> 11	64/65/67/69/71	tom 1/2/3/4/mixed
> 12	66/68/70	synth. tom 1/2/3
> 13	72/74		cow bell 1/2
> 14	73/75		triangle open/mute
> 15	76/77/79/81	timbales high mute/high/low/mixed
> 16	78/80/82	computer game sound 1/2/3
> 17	83/84		agogo high/low
> 18	86/88/89/91/93	conga high mute/high/middle/low/mixed
> 19	95/96		clave high/low

    Note that these voices must be played in real time (preferably
    by your sequencer) and are totally independent of the "rhythm section"
    on-board, although they seem to use the same samples.
    
    The greatest feature of the MT-240 is that the piano preset, even
    without velocity, is incredibly convincing.  The worst feature is
    that *all* sounds get processed through a chorus to get stereo sound,
    and that is to the detriment of both the piano and percussion. 
    Still, for $120, this is *the* entry level MIDI box to have.

I just got a newspaper flyer from Montgomery Ward last nite that advertised
the MT240 for $119.99. It used to go for about $160. In the ad they have a
little black triangle with the word "Closeout" inscribed.

For those unfamiliar with the area here, there is a Montgomery Ward store
at the Nashua Mall, just off exit 5 on Rt 3, which is a few miles north
of the Mass/NH border. Of course, there is no sales tax for this item when
bought in New Hampshire.

I just got a new 47th St. Photo catalog in the mail today. 
They offer the MT240 for about $110+shipping. 

Greetings!

Can anyone tell me if more than 1 MT240 (or for that matter any other
Casio MIDI instrument) can be on the same 'bus'?  How does an instrument
tell if the 'note' is for it?  i.e. what is the addressing scheme?

I got one of these things today (at Auburn, Ma, Caldor (2 left)) but my ST
is 100's of miles away.  I have another Casio machine at home (CT6000) and
I would like to sequence both at once.  Can it be done?  The 240 is pretty
impressive even just as a drum machine.  Also the piano sounds pretty darn
nice. Some of the other instruments sound too high tech (e.g. brass
ensemble, string ensemble, bells) to be usable except by kids.  But about
a dozen of the voices sound nice to me.  Also lotsa other features.

So, does anyone know if it'll be useable with the other instrument on the
ST?

Thanks for any replies and even more thanks for the replies that come in
before the return policy and my trip run out!

Rich Murray

Does either keyboard have a MIDI THRU?  If so, you are golden.

The new keyboard appers to be able to receive on channels 1, 2, or 3,
and rythm on 4.  Can you set the receive channel of the other?

If neither keyboard has a MIDI THRU, you may have a problem of having to
build or buy a Midi-thru or broadcast capability.  You can't just chain the
MIDI OUT to the MIDI IN of the next keyboard - all that accomplishes is
that everything you play on the first is also played on the second, but
it doesn't forward the stuff the computer plays to both keyboards - you
get that from a MIDI THRU connector.  The Atari ST hides MIDI THRU on
extra pins of the MIDI OUT connector, perhaps the CT keyboard does the
same?

    Re: previous
    
    [MIDI THRU]
    
    The sequencer I use (Master Tracks/Pro) has an "intelligent thru"
    feature: If you're inputting data on MIDI channel #1 (say your master
    keyboard), but recording for playback on channel #3 (say a sound
    generator module) MTP will automatically re-route #1->#3 so you can
    hear what you're playing.
    
    [How do the keyboards know if it's for them?]
    
    Each keyboard/effects unit/sgm has a channel number on the buss.
    Sometimes more than one. When a message goes out, the high-order 3 bits
    encode the channel number... this is all detailed in the MIDI
    specification for your keyboard.
    				- hbm

OK, so if you have 2 MT-240's, each of which contains 3 polyphonic sound
generators that are hardwired to channels 1-3, can you transmit data for six 
sound generators to one of the MT-240's and to an intelligent thru device 
on channels 1-6, and have the device convert channels 4-6 to 1-3 and forward 
to the other MT-240?  This would seem to allow you to simultaneously play up 
to 6 different kinds of MT-240 simulated instruments, with from 2 to 6 notes 
being sounded on each instrument simultaneously.  (Ch1 = 6 notes, Ch2 = 4 notes, 
Ch3 = 2 notes)

Now, as for sending data on channel 4 to the MT-240, has anyone found a use 
for it?  I've been able to change from one auto-rhythm to another via channel 4, 
but only when I start and stop the rhythm via the manual controls on the MT-240 
console.  Does the MT-240 respond to a MIDI command that starts and stops the 
autorhythm?  I would have expected some kind of note on/off commands to do this, 
but the documentation explicitly says that note on/off is not implemented on
channel 4. 

    Yes, I think the arrangment you describe would give the expected
    results. The 'intelligent thru device' would have to ignore input
    on channels 1-3.
    
    I haven't tried channel 4. There is a synchro-start button on the
    MT240 which starts the rhythm when the first note is played.  We
    would have to know more about the MIDI spec to see what control
    codes might exist.
    
    I have been playing with a PD Music Studio player which allows some
    MIDI editing. Some of the songs I've picked up sound pretty weird.
    I believe they're setup for the CZ101.  It'll keep me occupied changing
    the presets, channels and octaves trying to get the best sounds.
    Percussion is especially difficult.  All percussion on the MT240
    is by note number on preset (voice) number 10.  The preset number
    seems to be sent with each note. Pointing multiple tracks at the
    same channel with different presets causes switching and sometimes
    sounds clipped. 
    
    How many of us picked up or have the MT240?
    

    Re: .-1
    
>OK, so if you have 2 MT-240's, each of which contains 3 polyphonic sound
>generators that are hardwired to channels 1-3, can you transmit data for six 
>sound generators to one of the MT-240's and to an intelligent thru device 
>on channels 1-6, and have the device convert channels 4-6 to 1-3 and forward 
>to the other MT-240? 
    
    Simple answer? Yes. 
    
    +---------+         +----------+        +--------+
    | MT-240  |Out----->| Thru box |Out---->| MT-240 |
    | master  |         | 4/6->1/3 |        | slave  |
    +---------+         +----------+        +--------+
    
    Now, this brings up another question: when the MT-240 responds to
    multiple channels, it doesn't use its software MIDI address to base the
    channel range? For example, my Kawai K1m uses the system MIDI address
    as an offset:
    
    	System		"Virtual" SGMs
    	  5		   5,6,7,8
    	  1		   1,2,3,4
    
    				- hbm

    Today a flyer from Service Merchandise arrived with the MT240 going
    for an incredible $98.72!
    
    SM is based in Nashville, Tennessee and has several stores in New
    England. The nearest to me is at Auburn, Mass. They have a toll-free
    mailorder number (U.S) 1-800-251-1212. There other number is
    615-366-3900. They honor MasterCard, Visa, Discover and there own
    credit card.
    
    The sale ends April 23rd.
    
    [I can't believe I wrote 'there' instead of 'their']
    

Well, I accidentally left the MT240 turned on the other day when 
I decided to play some Marble Madness with my son.  Only some of 
the sound was received by the MT240, so leave the Atari sound turned 
up.  I found the ghostly effect of "Chorus" to be especially appropriate. 
Using the tempo control, it's not too hard to sync up an auto rhythm. 

    YES, Marble madness snds out midi data (on channel 1 I belive).
    If you score is good enough to get on the 'board', a neat tune
    will play until you hit RETURN after entering your score.
    
    I leave my MIDI equipment on when playing games, and it's a neat
    feature of many games.  I put a note in here a while ago about
    games that send MIDI data...
    
    _John_

    Toys'R Us is now selling the Casio MT240 MIDI keyboard for less than
    $100 as their regular price.

This week (9/17-9/22) Highland Superstores in eastern Mass (maybe others) have
the Casio MT540 on sale at $97. This is the same unit as the MT240 except that
it has larger (full-size?) keys. Another chance to get into MIDI at loow prices.

    Do you have any phone numbers? Will they do mail order to the UK?
    Or any other ideas on how I can get one?
    
    Thanks 
    
    Kev Reid - Leeds UK 845-2265

Sorry to respond so late...

Highland Superstores is an electronics discount chain with '92 stores throughout
10 states'. They don't normally do phone/mail orders. The nearest one to me is
Worcester Massachusetts and the number is 508-854-2000. They are open from 10am
to 9pm on Monday-Saturday and noon to 6pm on Sunday.

The sale ends Saturday at close of business. They accept MasterCard, Visa and
American Express. I will try to call them today about phone/mail orders. If
they accept orders by phone but don't ship (unlikely) I'm willing to pick-up
and ship to you. If they do neither I'm willing to buy it - get money from you -
and ship it to you.

    I will call them as soon as I hang up this modem. If they will ship I
    will mail you straight back. If not and you can get me one I'll send
    you the necessary money ASAP. Thanks for the info!! Cheapest Midi
    keyboard in UK with full size keys is nearer $350
    
    Thanks  Kev.

    Good news - bad news...
    
    I have the MT540 keyboard! I'm afraid my assumptions about size were
    wrong. It is the same size as the MT240 and has the same mid-size keys.
    The white keys are 3.25" long. The only difference that I can see from
    the MT240 is that it has 8 additional 'sound effect' keys and a
    separate volume control for the sound effects. Also, it runs off of C
    cell batteries instead of AA size. I like my MT240. I just wanted to
    put this note in so others wouldn't be misled. We can discuss how/if
    you would like to proceed by mail.

Now that I have read the manual I have more differences and another correction.
The correction is that the MT540/CT460 runs on 'D' cells. The manual for the
MT540 also serves for the CT460. The common features are described in notes
440.10 and 440.14. Here is a table of differences.

				MT240		MT540		CT460
Lowest price seen		$98		$97		?

Keyboard size			mid		mid		full

# of presets			20		20*		30

Sound effects			No		Yes		Yes

Use of Sustain pedal		No		No		Yes

Registration Banks		No		No		Yes

Transmit channel		1		1-4		1-4

4th channel use			Rhythm Select	Rhythm Select	Rhythm Select
						or 4 note voice	or 4 note voice

Rhythm clock			Int		Int/ext		Int/ext

Battery size			AA		D		D

Auto Harmonize			No		No		Yes

Speaker size diameter		10cm		10cm		12cm

*The Mt540 replaces 'metallic sound' and 'synth-reed' with Sound effect 1/2

As mentioned previously the MT540 (and CT460) have 8 sound effect buttons and
a separate volume control. Using the Sound effect presets provides 98 different
sound effects to be played via the keyboard or with midi signals.

All three will honor sustain midi messages,only the CT460 allows a sustain pedal
and sustain messages to be transmitted.

The most significant difference to me is the alternate use of channel 4.

    Re .-1
    
    Just to point out that the 540 has 30 presets. Only 20 can be accessed
    from the front panel, the other 10 accessed from MIDI only.
    
    The sound effects are 'interesting'. If you ever compose a piece of
    music that requires birds, running water, a horse cantering, a laser
    beam & explosion & a round of applause at the end, this is the machine
    for you !
    
    They can be seen for cheaper & cheaper prices in the UK. I got mine 2nd
    hand, bit Dixons was only �10 more for a brand new one. (And that was a
    year ago !)
    
    		Stuart Poore.