Conference 7.286::atarist

    make that Atari 520ST
    
    I'd say the Commodore 64 would be better because of the large
    volume of software available for it.
    
    But it is an old system.  The 520ST is newer, has flasher
    graphics, a 80 column screen, a graphics interface, etc.
    
    The ST might be easier for him to use.
    
    -dave

    
    Never underestimate the learning ability of a 12 year old...
    
    Seriously, the ST is light years ahead of the C-64 in every area.
    Graphics, sound, speed, ease of use, you name it.  When you tally
    up all the costs, the 8 bit machines really aren't a lot cheaper
    that the new 68000 based systems.  If you got your child a C-64
    and he then got a demo of an ST from a friend, he'd hound you for
    all eternity.
    
    What kinds of systems do his friends have?  The ST and the Amiga
    500 are very popular among pre-teens.  It's kind of like having
    the fastest car on the block.
    
    Ed.

    I used to work as a contractor writting programs for software
    publishing houses (particularly a place called Kyan).  I had
    to write some software for the C64 and I really hated it.
    
    Here is why.
    
        1 It's disk drive is very slow and it's DOS is a joke.
    
        2 It's OS is very buggy.  I had to roll my own quite often.
          I/O is very device dependent.
    
        3 Basic does not support the graphics of the machine.
    
        4 The keyboard layout is the pits.  The biggest pain is
          the cursor keys position.
    
        5 The disk drive is slow and I mean slow (I know I'm
          repeating myself).  The old Atari 810 drive are blazing
          fast in comparison.
    
    On the Good side.
    
        1 The hardware sprites are nice.
    
        2 Filenames are very flexible.
    
        3 I once ported something called KIX to it and it ran
          (KIX is a C style shell which once existed on the Apple
           with PRODOS)
    
        4 It's Cheap
    
    Martin H.

No comparison, only contrasts.

If you were to compare the Atari 8 bit lines to the C64, then you
could make comparisons.  Check out the Atari XE game system if you want
an el-cheapo good system.  Now in US for (139 to 149) - 50 manufacturers
rebate for a total price around 100.  Great graphics, deatchable keyboard,
tons of games, real software too.  Can hook a disk drive to it and it
runs all (most at least if not 100%) of the Atari 8 bit line (400,800,600XL,
800XL,130XE, 65XE).  I still like my 800.

The ST is in a different bracket.  Like comparing the Hyundai (spll-?) to
a Honda Accord or Ford Taurus -- both are means of transportation that work
well, but are in a different class or bracket (I am trying hard to avoid
any value judgments here).

Chad

    Well "he" is a "she"... by the way.  
    
    I hear what everyone is saying...  thanks for the input.  
    
    One thing though... last night while running around stores I discovered
    the Amiga 500.  At first I thought I was hacking with the Atari...
    they look almost identical?  
    
    Mayby I'll poke my head into the Amiga notes file and see whats
    happening there.
    
    Thanks,
    Randy
                      

    How can you say that the atari 8-bits have good graphics.  Ataris
    may have 256 colors but can only put 4 on the screen.  I have over
    200 programs for my atari 800xl and there is only 2 programs that
    look as good as a 64 game(koronis rift and world karate championship).
    
    I would trade my 800xl,1050 disk drive,1030 modem and all my software
    for a 64 and disk drive.
    
        matt

RE: .6

Sorry to say this, but .6 is rubbish.

Sorry to say this, but .6 is rubbish.

Not only do Ataris (8 bit) have 128/256 colors available, but they can display
that many on the screen to.  "...but can only put 4 on the screen" just
isn't true.  I have written programs myself that do it, have seen many that
do it.  I had much to do with C64s, my HS was a test center for Commodore USA
and the C64, I programmed them a bit, my friend, Don Lebeau, author of
the Atari 8bit PD game GAUNTLET (not to be confused with the arcade/commercial
game gauntlet) aslo programmed the C64 commercially for Hayden Software ( I
believe it was Hayden, this was a few years ago), and he agrees with me and a
lot of other folks that the Atari has a superiour graphics capability.  If
professional programmers in the converting of apple games or C64 games to
Atari didn't take advantage of them that is not my fault.

The Atari 8 bit has an independent graphics CPU controlling a display
list that determined what graphics mode each *scan* line or group of scan lines
was in, and also allowed interrupts off of that scan line. It was a simple
program to set up this display list.  It allowed each of these scan lines
to have fine scrolling attached, each scan line (or group) to have its
own memory any where it wanted.  Yes, graphics memory was just main
memory, as much or as little as you wanted and anywhere you wanted, contiguous
or not.  There were also the player-missiles or sprites as called on
the Commodore and later machines.

I have seen a lot of great games for the 8 bit Ataris and the graphics were
great.  I have also seen good looking graphics on the C64 but the best screens
were on the Atari (that I have seen).  

Funny that .6 likes the Amiga, cause the 8bit Ataris are just baby Amigas.
The designer(s?) of the custom graphics chips for the Amiga is(are) the
same as that of the 8bit Ataris, and if my memory of the BYTE interview
when Amiga first came out serves me right, the Amiga chips are just super
enhancments/developments of the 8bit chips.

Sorry for the ramblings, it just makes my blood boil when someone says that
C64s are a better deal than 8 bit Ataris, and then states things like "..only
4 colors on screen".

Chad

PS:  Something else also comes to mind -- Alan Kay, Apple fellow (he gets paid
to just think about the next century for Apple :-) said that the Atari 8bits
were the best commercial 8bits available in terms of capabilities, including
graphics.  (His comments may have been only about 6502 type 8bits, don't
remember that well.)

    Chad,
    
    I talked to Don a couple times in compuserve and I think I once
    downloaded gauntlet.  If you get compuserve tell Don and the atari
    8-bit crew I said "hi". I was disconnected :-(
    
     I agree It could display all its colors but never in a game.  Graphic
    modes 9 and 10 would not be so bad if was 320 x 192 resolution.
    
             Matt Herb
    

Sorry about .7.  Notes T2.0 did something to me and I started over.

I've seen games that display more than 4 colors at once.

Don Lebeau used to live in Pepperell (where I live) and now lives in
Greenville New Hampshire.  I have never been on Compuserve.  I saw Don
a month or so ago at a church function in Nashua.  I had been in
Germany in 86 and 87 and hadn't seen him for a long while.  He told me that
he had done a whole new version of gauntlet.  I haven't seen it though
my Dad says we have it at home.  I haven't been on our 8 bit for a while
(except to play summer games once) because I have 0 time, and what is left
of that time gets spent with my MIDI equipment, though I am tempted to
get an XE and start programming again.

Chad.

    
    Just as with their 16 bit counterparts, some programmers felt that
    the C-64 was a better 8-bit than the Atari.
    
    I once had a conversation with Greg Tavares, an 8-bit and Amiga
    programmer for MicroProse (Greg did Silent Service for the Amiga).
    Greg really preferred the 64 to the Atari.  Funny that he switched
    his preferences to the Amiga later on, since, as Chad noted, the
    Amiga is really a next generation Atari 8-bit!                      
                                                 
    One thing everyone would agree on is that Atari and Commodore are
    pretty good at keeping each other on their toes, in the best
    capitalistic tradition.
    
    Ed.
    

Though I think the ST really fits my niche now (MIDI), and I dislike
Commodore (funny thing, now that Tramiel is head of Atari and Commodore
has the next generation Atari 8 bits), I think that with the current state
of affairs in Atari and the stream of new software (MIDI) for the Amiga that
is just starting to come forth and the Amigas BRIDGECARD that gives it the
capability to use MeSseyDOS stuff, that would probably be a good second
computer to add to my MIDI setup (in the future...).

Still wouldn't touch a 64 with a thirty mile pole if you paid me (well, if
you paid me I might touch it with a pole... :-)

Chad

One thing Atari has better:  Its name.  Commodore isn't very interesting to
me.  Atari is an interesting name.

    
    Wow!  Funny you should mention that about the Commodore name!  For
    years, I despised the name Commodore, even when William Shatner
    (Captain Kirk) was selling CBM Pets.  I just had this mental block
    against even LOOKING at a Commodore computer. 
    
    Atari was a sexy, Japanese-sounding name.  I always wanted an Atari
    XL, until my brother-in-law convinced me to look at a C-64, which
    I bought.  
    
    Originally, Amiga was a separate entity from Commodore International.
    Maybe the marketeers felt that it was better to keep a good distance
    from the Commodore name.
    
    Ed.

    maybe it might be better to move the 8-bit atari discussion to the
    atari notesfile.  I too was upset to see all that hardware and nice
    OS go to waste, while the C64 got lots of the 3rd party support.  The
    "only 4 colors" is just lazy programmers.  But true for a lot of
    games.  Only after Jack T. dropped the price, has there
    been an effort to start pushing the hardware to it's limits.  That
    seems to be tied to the size of the installed base.
    
    Anybody see the new Antic with instructions on how to get stereo
    output from the POKEY chip?  
    
    But the real question is how much life is left in the 8bit computer
    line from any manufacturer.  The price on the 16bit computers 
    has dropped so much that it really does compete in price when you
    try to put together a useable 8bit system.
    
    -Dave
    

    I don't mean to say all atari games have 4 colors,but they sure
    don't have 16 colors at a time like the 64.Koronis Rift does have
    the best graphics out of any game for the atari.
    
       Matt
    

    Re: .15
    
    You may like to play games.  But can you seriously defend the C64's
    disk and nonexistent disk OS.  How about using bit maped graphics?
    
    Martin H.

         I can't defend the 1541, either in terms of speed, or reliability.
    OS?  Hmmnnn.  Nope, not that either.
    
         Bit mapped graphics?  Although really unusable from BASIC (too
    slow),  I never had problems doing graphics work using assembler
    or Pascal.  I would use the 90/10 rule, and produced some real nice
    work. (relatively speaking :^)
    
         I'm not familiar with the Atari 8-bits, but was very happy
    with my c64.  Some of the the things people have tweaked out of that
    box are pretty amazing.
    
    Steve