Conference 7.286::atarist

237.0. "Spectre 128 MAC emulator w/ 128K ROMs" by SMURF::COUTU (He who will not risk, cannot win.) Tue Sep 20 1988 18:25

    I thought the readers of this conference might find this info from
    usenet interesting. Since nobody has posted it yet I figured I
    might as well since not everyone gets the usenet postings.
    
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.8bit,comp.sys.atari.st
Path: decwrl!labrea!rutgers!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!bloom-beacon!oberon!nunki.usc.edu!rjung
Subject: Glendale Atari Faire v.3 report(!)
Posted: 18 Sep 88 20:45:50 GMT
Organization: The O-Mayer V BBS (grin)
Xref: decwrl comp.sys.atari.8bit:1978 comp.sys.atari.st:12274
 
 
  Well, it's now Sunday, 9/18/88, and the Glendale Atari Faire v.3 is over.
Here's a report, for those who are interested.
(If you're not interested, I suggest you hit "n" now:)
 
  The Glendale Faire may have been a local event, but there were a few things
that net.people would be interested in:
 
* SPECTRE 128. It's _here_. NOW. David Small brought 200 copies out to
    Glendale, and were they selling! The price is around $180 -- Make your
    checks out to "Gadgest By Small". David (a very funny and fun guy) was
    accompanied by his wife Sandy, his infant son, and a few friends.
    And yes, I did see Hypercard running on an ST with my own eyes. David
    also gave a humorous talk on the development of the Spectre, and
    denies any plans to do an Amiga emulator for the ST or a Mac emulator on
    the Amiga.
 
* 8-bit GEM. You want to revitalize your 8-bit Atari? Then take your picks:
 
      Obviously, the biggest expectation in the 8-bit community is GOE
    (Graphics Operating Enviroment). Yes, it was at the Faire, and yes,
    Total Control Systems is selling them. They're not _shipping_ until
    October, but you can order it now and get a discount. It looks like a
    TOTAL clone of the ST's GEM (You can even hook up an ST mouse and run
    GOE through it), and ran solid for the entire show. The author says it
    will run 95% of all 8-bit programs. It comes on a ICD "piggyback"
    cartridge, and takes up only 8K of RAM. There's supposed to be a library
    of GOE routes, so other developers can easily make GOE calls and write
    GOE products. Looks really terrific.
 
        From the makers of _Celebrity Cookbook_ comes DIAMOND OS (aka ST jr,
    depending on what time of the day you were at the booth). For $30, it's a
    graphics interface that offers drop-down menus, windows, and other good
    stuff (it doesn't _look_ like GEM, however). Reeve Software is promising
    to release DIAMOND Paint, Write, Publish, and Programmer's Kits, for $30
    each as well. It looks like it's disk based (I can't be sure),
    but that's okay -- it can support up to 16 megabytes(!) of RAM.
 
* Genlock for the ST was demonstrated, in an open-board "final" version. JRI
    says they're only waiting for the FCC, and then they'll ship. It's very
    impressive -- An ST Cyberpain animation was being superimposed over a
    music video, and the Genlocked result was being shown on both a standard
    TV _and_ the SC1224 (how do they do that?). Ready to tackle the Amiga?
 
* Neocept, makers of FONTZ! and WORDUP (a great word processor -- an
    unsolicited endorsement) were present. Nothing major was presented,
    although the new version of WordUp, with numerous minor bug fixes,
    is expected to ship in two weeks. Registered owners will recieve a card
    in the mail about the upgrade procedure. Neocept also says they'll gladly
    take user input for improvements for their products -- Just drop them a
    line.
 
* Animation buffs like myself will be happy to hear that FILM DIRECTOR is
    finally being released. Epyx has gotten the rights to this two-year-old
    cel-based animation program, and it has been SUBSTANTIALLY improved
    (16 screens for cels, runs in 512K, better user interface, etc.).
    It should be out in October, and the $50 price tag gets you both FILM
    DIRECTOR and ART DIRECTOR -- A bargain! Maurice Molyneaux (a fun guy to
    chat with, a real professional artist) had a lot of input into the final
    user interface, and it shows. I can't wait.
 
* Megamax was also showing their soon-to-be-released Laser DB. It's a source
    level debugger for Laser C, and offers lots of features -- Source-code
    trace viewing, register value displays, breakpoints, multiple windows.
    If you liked Laser C, you'll want this.
 
* Codehead software was also demonstrating G+PLUS (I won't say anything about
    this, everybody and his cousin knows about it by now) and a new product
    called MULTIDESK. MDesk allows you to have 16 accessories of your
    choice in ONE menu slot. Even better, you can clear out and load NEW
    accessories at any time! You can also change the name MultiDesk registers
    itself on the menu, so you can have six copies of Multidesk -- each one
    with 16 different accessories -- for a mind-numbing total of 96 accessories
    avaliable simultaneously. Future products promised include FatBack ("A
    unique hard disk backup system") and CodeHead Utilities (A collection of
    programs and accessories).
 
* ICD was present and selling their cartridge-based SPARTADOS X. My friend
    bought a copy ($80, on a piggyback cartridge), and it appears to work
    just fine. Improvements include 1000+ files per directory, faster disk
    access, and built-in ARC/ALFCRUNCH support. The manual is still a
    preliminary copy, however, but ICD promises to send out the finals
    to registed owners when they become available. They also showed their
    FA-ST hard drive, available for 8-bit or ST hookup.
 
* Regent Software was selling copies of REGENT WORD II for the jaw-dropping
    price of $15 each -- Not $15 off, $15 EACH.
 
* Broderbund, surprisingly, was present. They were showing their new _Typhoon
    Thompson_ game for the ST (known on the Apple // as _Airheart_), as well
    as _Star Wars_ (imported from Europe; Broderbund is distributing). A
    version of _Karateka_ for the ST is promised, and "maybe" _Print Shop_,
    but little else. (The dealer was frank in why there was less Atari
    support -- "Our biggest market is the //gs"). No word on 8-bit support.
 
* And now, the word from Atari.  Conspicuous by their absence, none of the
    Tramiel family showed up. Instead, we were treated to Sig Hartman, who
    promised us that "[1989] will be a critical point for Atari in the US
    market". He also apologized for the lack of more ST's in America ("We
    had a limited number of Ataris, and we decided to put them in West
    Germany -- If we didn't, there would have been a hole for the Amiga or
    the Macintosh to get in"), and pledged closed attention to the end users,
    through user groups and public information services. Sig refused to
    "officially" confirm/deny the existence of the Atari Transputer, the
    68020/68030 workstation/machines, or anything else -- except by saying
    "We're working on 7 or 8 products right now, and I can't say what they
    are." He did promise that 520/1040 owners will be able to get TOS and
    blitter upgrades, and that he will personally try to get more companies
    to produce 8-bit titles.
 
      In a related vein, Federated promised the increased development of
    "compu-centers" in all their stores, and the possibility of offering
    in-store servicing for Atari products. They are also supposedly toying
    with the idea of carrying hardware accessories (boards, wiring, etc.) 
    in the centers.
 
* Pledged to appear -- but never did -- were Data Pacific and Antic. Dealers
    who did appear, but didn't produce anything major, included Astra systems,
    Michtron, Migraph, and Seymour-Radix. Bill Skurski Enterprises was
    present, peddling copies of his "New User's Guide to the Atari ST" (book
    and videotape), as well as Best Electronics, Logical Choice for Computing,
    Mid-Cities Comp/Soft, and Comsoft.
 
 
  Special thanks to John King Tarpinian, the local user groups, ACENET, and
everybody else for makign the whole thing possible.
 
 
						--R.J.
						B-)
 
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Disclaimer: These are my views, and mine alone.
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  Mailing address: Beats me, just reply to this message      # ## #
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
Path: decwrl!ucbvax!husc6!rutgers!ucla-cs!acm
Subject: Spectre 128 info from Glendale Atarifest
Posted: 19 Sep 88 00:06:51 GMT
Organization: UCLA Computer Science
 
 
 
A SPECTRE COMES BACK TO HAUNT APPLE
Gadgets by Small was showing Release 1.0 (?) of Spectre 128 at the "Southern 
California Atari Computer Faire, Version 3.0".  It is now selling.
Dave Small has outdone himself again, coming out with a superior product in
an incredibly short amount of time.
 
What warrants the word 'superior'?  In addition to the things you might
expect, like being 20% faster than the hardware it emulates, having a 
larger screen with a mono monitor, being compatible with SC1224 monitors,
Translator 1, all Mack System and Finder versions, HFS, and the 128K (not to
mention the 64K) ROMS, Dave's Cartridge now refreshes the screen 400% faster
and writes to floppies 800% faster than the Sac.  In addition, you can use 
Apple's own SCSI HD's with it if you want.  Admittedly not a godsend to most
ST owners (who would balk at Apple's prices, for one thing), but most 
probably useful for current Mack users who already have the HD, either at 
home or at work.
 
Where the Spectre really shocked me, though, was when I heard about its HD
transfer speed, which, according to Dave's modest figures, is fully 2.5 times
faster than the Mack itself.  Much to the delight of the crowd at the seminar,
and as you could imagine, Dave commented that Apple's ghostbusting lawyers are 
*furious*.  I think the decision to release the Spectre now at this 
comparatively small Faire (as opposed to say, Comdex in the Fall) was a good
way to keep the lawyers from showing up to harass him.  Dave is betting that
word of mouth and the networks are going to spread the news of this 
development further and faster than trade publicity anyway.
	
I almost forgot: yes, it runs hypercard (with a mere meg, even)...and 
pagemaker, and adobe illustrator, and...well, in Dave's own words, it 
is "...far more compatible" than the last mack emulator to appear on the 
market.  Of my own first-hand experience with the setup there, its speed
and its (larger screen) appearance made it subjectively very reminiscent
of the feel of a monochrome Mack II.  
 
There is a downside to everything, hard to find to be sure, but still there.
Dave said that version 1.0 has a minor bug in it, but he noted that
updates that contain bug fixes will be free (as usual, right?), and that
update charges in the future will be smaller than what Data Pacific levied.
The initial cost for the Spectre, however, will be more expensive.  It is 
currently listing at $179.95.  But my guess is that this compares favorably
with Apple's charge to 'enhance' a 512K mack.
 
One thing that bugged me is that I didn't see anywhere a list of the software
that doesn't run (the list of software that DOES run would probably be 
too obnoxiously big).  But surely something must break?  According to Dave, he
said he actually finished Spectre "last Tuesday," so just maybe they haven't
had the time to compile a long impressive list suitable for printing.
 
A couple other things: still no support for Mack sound or MIDI.  Dave
said that he's working on getting the sound to work, but that at present
enabling it uses up too much CPU and eventually crashes the machine (funny, I
thought that the former was true of the real Mack).  As for MIDI, I forgot
exactly what reason he gave, but the bottom line is "no go".
 
Since some of you probably would have asked, here is the address that was
given for ordering purposes:
 
Gadgets by Small, Inc.
40 W. Littleton Blvd. #210-211
Littleton, Colorado  80120
 
 
Plinio Barbeito
[email protected]
 
UCLA Student Chapter of the ACM     UUCP: ...!{...}!ucla-cs!acm
3514, 4801 Boelter Hall             ARPA: [email protected]
Los Angeles, CA 90024               VOICE: (213) 825-5879, 825-7597
    
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
Path: decwrl!ucbvax!husc6!rutgers!ucla-cs!acm
Subject: News from Southern California Atari Faire
Posted: 19 Sep 88 00:14:25 GMT
Organization: UCLA Computer Science
 
Report from the "Southern California Atari Computer Faire, Version 3.0" 
(a.k.a. The Glendale Atarifest):
 
The biggest news at this show was the introduction of Spectre 128.  
Check out a separate posting for info on this.
 
CodeHead Software was showing G+plus, a "totally compatible" GDOS replacement
program, that is faster and has the added capability of reloading fonts and
device drivers without rebooting.  I never got to see it in action, so I
couldn't verify the above statements.  They were also showing MultiDesk,
a program that can load up to 96 desk accessories, at any time without 
rebooting to load and 'unload' them.  It takes up one regular acc slot.
In addition, it allows the use of some sort of macro files to load in a 
predetermined group of up to 16 accs. at once, with few mouse clicks.
They are also the authors of TopDown, the program that cuts bootup time
by putting auto programs and accs at the top of memory.  Their address is
P.O. Box 4336, N. Hollywood, CA 91607
 
JRI was showing a Genlock System for the Mega ST.  They had a cute animation
program running on top of video from a VCR.  They showed the animation program
by itself in one ST monitor and the combined output in both a TV and another
ST monitor.  The genlocking is fully hardware based, so that no supporting
software is needed (i.e. choose from whatever paint program or animation
package already available), it has a lot of features I won't mention here.
They are tentatively pricing the card at $500.  They are currently awaiting
FCC certification, and are planning similar device(s) for the low-end ST's.
 
Neocept was showing the WordUp wordprocessor there.  As has been noted 
elsewhere, it was enjoying a good deal of popularity at the show, more so than
the WordPerfect booth.  Text routing is very sophisticated, very natural to
use, and reasonably fast, as are screen updates of a window full of big fonts
and pictures.  The print quality is really professional, as is the screen 
output on a monochrome monitor.  It wins hands down for ease of use over
a lot of other WP type programs.  For example, to include a picture along with
your text, you practically just have to choose a filename, the text will
automatically route around it (the picture appears right where the cursor is).
Resizing or removing the picture is as easy as manipulating a miniature GEM 
window.  The latest version has reportedly fixed the bugs in the initial 
release.  Some of the printed pictures could have looked a bit better, though.
 
Practical Solutions was showing a triophonic/true stereo sound adapter board.
Solderless and internal, it will be selling for $50 starting November.  This,
in combination with Yamaha's new 10-bit pin compatible, functionally compatible
version of the sound chip (anybody know where I can get one cheap?) could
open up possibilities for much better sound right out of the ST.  The extra
bits make a big difference.  Why, just think, 6 more bits and we have CD 
quality B-).  Anyway, PS's Videokey composite/RF converter/audio line
box goes for $120.  They were also showing their mouse, monitor, and drive
master boxes, all three of which simply switch safely from one set of lines to
another ($40-50).  They say they'll sell bulk ST floppy and monitor
connectors for less than $6.00 each.
 
Somebody (I don't know who) was showing midi-gram, what seemed to be a
microphone that converted sung notes (i.e. sounds) into midi notes (i.e.
binary), for use with any sequencer for recording.  Don't know if this is
specifically an ST product or simply a MIDI port hookup or what.
 
Of the few displays only showing games at this show (maybe the only one?), 
there was Broderbund.  Nothing to note.
 
Antic Software was showing the usual 3D sterotek glasses (forms a crowd, but
not really that impressive, folks).  I didn't get to see their new CyberSculpt,
the latest of Tom Hudson's creations, so don't ask.  A lot of people were
showing Spectrum 512 and Cyber pics, however -- mainly to show off their
monitors or monitor attachments or the speed of their hard drives and such.
 
Megamax was showing their Laser C compiler, announcing that by Christmas
they will have LaserDB, a source debugger, available.
 
Seymor/Radix was showing an impressive 75,160,216,300,360,600, up to 1000 dpi 
image scanner.  Of course, the output can be used with all major picture
formats and DP programs.  Their printed output looked very good.
 
Last but not least Atari was represented at the show.  Sig Hartmann was hard
to track down, so I asked Cindy Claveran if she had any info on the 68030
UNIX box, but although she was very courteous, she had no comments about any
possible release date.  Somebody nearby also asked about the transputer.  
Essentially what she said about that is that all of the prototypes are now in
developers' hands.  That would explain, at least, why there was no transputer
to be seen there.  But I didn't see 1280x960 monitors popping up anywhere
either.  What *did* Atari show, you ask?  Pretty much their whole current
product line, all the way down to the game machines, running various types
of software.
 
 
Plinio Barbeito
[email protected]
 
UCLA Student Chapter of the ACM     UUCP: ...!{...}!ucla-cs!acm
3514, 4801 Boelter Hall             ARPA: [email protected]
Los Angeles, CA 90024               VOICE: (213) 825-5879, 825-7597
    

    
    That Spectre 128 should get Apple's lawyers pretty excited.  Looks
    like the far east folks with the cloned mac won't have too long
    to wait to see if Apple has a desire to stop Mac clones.  It wasn't
    much of a threat with the 64K ROMs, but now that it can run
    hypercard...
    
    I'm glad he finally killed the Amiga emulator rumors (both of them),
    although that might have been legally much safer to do.
    
    I hope he can pull it off, Apple needs the competition, particularly
    after that last price increase.
    
    -dave

    
    The real reason that Small never did an Amiga version of the Sac
    (he did try for several months) is the Amiga's lack of a large bank
    of contiguous memory on one buss.
    
    Small claimed that if everyone had a 2 meg Amiga, it would have
    been easier.  However, to make it work properly, he'd have to use
    640 x 400 mode, which flickers like mad on vanilla monitors.
    
    All in all, the ST is a far more sensible platform on which to emulate
    a Mac.
    
    If I had an ST, I'd scramble like mad to get the 128K emulator before
    Apple puts the kibosh on it.
    
    Ed.
    

    Re: .-1
    
    >If I had an ST, I'd scramble like mad to get the 128K emulator before
    >Apple puts the kibosh on it.

    Remember, Dave has an agreement with Apple...
    					- HBM

What incredible news!  Has anyone else got any other info on this??
Specifically...

	1)  does it come with the 128K ROMS?  If not, how much are they and
	    where do you get 'em?

	2)  is there a list of programs that WON'T run on it?

	3)  what do you need in addition to a vanilla 1040st to run
	    the Spectre?

	4)  what happens to support if Apple's lawyers quash it?
	    What is the nature of Small's agreement w/ Apple?


Thanks for any pointers or hard info.

Rich (Hypercard here I come (maybe)) Murray

    4) Small has no agreement with Apple that I am aware of, he made the
    Magic Sac so it would only work with the original ROMs to avoid
    having to worry about Apple's lawyers.
    
    1) He states in his newsletter that he DOES NOT provide the ROMs,
    however, there are Computer Shopper adds for the ROMs.
    
    2) There is not a programs-that-don't-run list that I am aware of,
    he didn't state it in his newsletter.  It won't work with with Apple-talk
    for obvious hardware reasons, it also can't emulate the sounds other
    than beeps, due to the nature of the MAC's sound chip ROM support.
    Supposedly more serial-line communications programs will work, due
    to some support in the 128K ROMS.
    
    3) I don't know if it comes with an EPSON printer driver, I didn't
    look too carefully to see if it did, that is one thing it may or
    may not be lacking.
    
    							-Dave

RE: < Note 237.5 by 21850::WEAVER "Laboratory Data Products" >


>    4) Small has no agreement with Apple that I am aware of, he made the
>    Magic Sac so it would only work with the original ROMs to avoid
>    having to worry about Apple's lawyers.
    
     He had an agreement with apple for the magic sac, I don't know if
     he has one for the spectre.  He had originally made the agreement
     with apple, and he had to meet three points set by apple.
     
     1) It must not work with eeproms, only apple roms
     
     2) He had to change the name from MACCartrige to Magic Sac
     
     3) It had to be marketed as if it were for people who own
        macintoshes, and also own atari's, and want to run mac
        programs on it too.
        
     Bill Powers
     

Spectre 128 really sounds worth waiting for.

After calling "Gadgets by Small" in Colorado ((303)791-6098) and asking
for Spectre information, they sent me a "Gadget News-Herald" newsletter.
It told alot about the box but I still had some questions. Thought I'd 
share them with you as well as ask the questions I forgot to ask them.

	Q) I have a plain vanilla 1040st mono. machine.  What do I need
	   in addition to the Spectre ($180) to make it work?

	A) You must purchase the 128K ROMS from a Mac dealer (at an approx.
	   cost of $100) and you must find a way to get the programs onto
	   the ST.  They suggested using a Translator from Data Pacific 
	   which allows the ST's floppy drive to read Mac-format disks.  
	   The other way is to hook the ol' null modem cable between the Mac
	   and the ST and bring up Kermit or something on both machines to
	   do file transfer.


	Q) Does the Spectre support Epson compatible printers?

	A) Yes, but you need a driver for your printer such as Epstart which
	   is sold by Data Pacific (THEM again!).


My follow-up questions are these:

	1) Has anyone heard of better prices on the ROMs?  If so, where
	   and how much?

	2) RE: file xfer...  How can I start up a program such as Kermit 
	   on the ST under Spectre if I have no way to get it there?

	3) Are there any alternatives to the Epstart driver.  From what
	   I've read about Data Pacific, I'd like to avoid doing business
	   with them for now.

Some of the claimed advantages of the Spectre over the Magic Sac:

	o	Hard disk up to 10x faster than Sac.

	o	Floppy R/W about 3x faster than Sac

	o	Screen operations about 4x Sac.

	o	Fixed serial port so Red Ryder and Microsoft Works
		now work.

	o	Runs Hypercard!  Good description of this in the newsletter.
		I really want the Spectre mainly for this.

	o	Support for Apple Laser Writer


Well, that's the news from Lake Wobegone.

Rich Murray

    RE: .-1
    
    I called Pre-owned Electronics in Waltham about the 128K ROMs. They
    told me the supply had pretty much dried up, they had 150 back orders
    and were not taking any more orders. They pointed me at Shreve Systems
    who supposedly have them in stock but are charging $200 a set!!
    
    John.

    Re: .6
    
    ...how I do get a comm program over to the ST/Spectre...
    
    Dave should give you a piece of software for the Mac and for the
    ST (that runs under GEM) that will transfer an entire Mac disk over
    the serial port to a Spectre disk (Magic Sac format, I'll bet) on
    the ST.
    				- HBM

    I sent an order for the Spectre 128 about 5 weeks ago but haven't
    heard anything since.
    Anybody received his copy of the Spectre yet?
    
    ---markus---

    Yes... I haven't, but a friend has received his, and it does work...
    				- HBM
    

    	
    	   Next question...
    
    	   I have a Mega 2, and am using my old 520's SS drive as a
    second drive. This Translator One...since it can't (?) be installed
    on the Mega internal drive, do you need a DD external to use it
    (somehow I feel the answer is going to be yes...)?
    	   Has ANYONE tried one of these yet? Really got into the dirt
    with one? I've heard nothing but raves, but if someone REAL out
    there can tell me it's extremely compatible, then the search for
    ROMS might be on...
    
    	   And about $200 ROMS...someone's overpricing the things like
    crazy, but think...$179 for the Spectre...$200 for Translator One
    (I think)...even $200 for ROMs gives you a Mac for less than $600.
    
    						Les
     

    Re: .-1
    
>        second drive. This Translator One...since it can't (?) be installed
>    on the Mega internal drive, do you need a DD external to use it
>    (somehow I feel the answer is going to be yes...)?

    
    Why do you think the Translator won't work on your internal drive?
    
    We have one, and it works fine on the 1040's internal drive (surprised
    the !@%^*& out of me, though!)
    
>    	And about $200 ROMS...someone's overpricing the things like
>    crazy, but think...$179 for the Spectre...$200 for Translator One
>    (I think)...even $200 for ROMs gives you a Mac for less than $600.
    
    Translator I goes for about $279 (At least the last time I saw them).
    We ordered the ROMs for about $100 (not $200). Bear in mind that
    the Translator comes from Data Pacific, and Spectre 128 comes from
    Gadgets by Small, Inc. Dave is supposed to come out with a new
    "Translator" that does everything from the cartridge port (Spectre
    128 users supposedly get to trade-up).
    				- HBM

    
    	   I was under the impression that you had to disconnect Translator
    One from the drive when using Atari disks. I guess I was wrong,
    but I don't mind...
    			  if the news is that good!
    
    					Les
    

    Re: .-1
    
>    	I was under the impression that you had to disconnect Translator
>    One from the drive when using Atari disks. I guess I was wrong,
>    but I don't mind...
    
    	Nope.
    				- HBM
    

Do you mean "nope you do" or "nope you don't".

    Translator I should be connected and powered-on at system startup.
    Always. After that, its actions are completely transparent to what
    you do.
    				- HBM