Conference 7.286::atarist

    Any idea whether this will be offered to existing users of 2.0 as
    an upgrade at a minimum cost ? I sent my registration card off ehn
    I bought GFA basic last November and have not heard a thing. I don't
    know whether they intend to support users at all or offer upgrades.
    I am certainly wary of their products because of this, and will
    continue to be until I have some evidence of an after-sales support
    service. Also, if they DID offer an upgrade to existing users, I
    assume that the documentation will have changed. How would they
    propose to offer this to the upgrading users ?
    
    
    
    				Jamie.

    
    Well, I don't know your location/country, but here in Holland
    it's as follows:
    Registred users: update $45 
    New users:	            $140
    
    The documentation has changed (and improved!) considerably. 
    For instance, because AES is now supported, there are over 100 pages 
    dealing with AES alone.
    The documentation is now about 450 pages. I assume that you will
    get this new manual with your update.
    If you're dealing via an import firm, I don't know about updates.
    
    By the way, V3.0 of the GFA compiler is said to be released in five
    months from now.

    re. .3 see reply .2
    

    But do I have to contact GFA, or will they inform me as a result
    of my sending in my registration card ?
    
    
    
    				Jamie.

    One of the major distributors of GFA Basic here in the USA is Michtron.
    I just called them regarding version 3.0, and they said it wouldn't
    be available until July! And that was for the interpreter. So, it
    sounds like probably only the original German version is now available,
    and only in Europe. Is that correct????
    
    I have the interpreter and compiler, and just LOVE them both. But
    there were a few enhancements I wanted. Looks like they are there
    now. Can't wait for version 3.0!!
    

    
    re .6  The situation here in Holland is that the user should
    	   call the import firm for the update service.
    
    re .7  You could try to order directly from the manufacturer
           GFA Systemtechnik in Germany, but it could be that you
           would get the German version with German language manuals.
           The reason why it's shipping later in the US is probably
           caused by the fact that the product is translated.
    
    Maybe our German noters have more information on this as they are
    closest to the source.
    Marc

    
    There was a virus alert on USENET today. It stated that the
    supplemental disk of the GFA Basic 3.0 set contained a virus. 
    
    The interpeter disk did NOT have the virus but the supplemental disk
    with the examples etc. DID have a virus. The manufacturer discovered it
    and spread the news thru users groups. 
    
    SO: BEWARE OF THE SUPPLEMENTAL DISK THAT COMES WITH GFA BASIC 3.0!
                        
    Marc

    I finally got a letter from Glentop who are the UK distributors
    of GFA software.
    
    They are offering existing GFA BASIC users and upgrade to version
    3.0 for - get this - a reduction of 10% from the normal street price.
    The price of GFA BASIC 3.0 is 40 pounds. They offer an upgrade for
    users of old version for a cost of 36 pounds. This is disgusting.
    I intend to pursue this further probably by writing a letter to
    both Glentop, GFA and a UK ST magazine. But before I take such a
    step, maybe I'm jumping the gun. Any comments ?
    
    
    
    				Jamie.
    
    
    PS a previous note said that in Holland, existing users could pay
    one third of the street price for the new version. This is a reduction
    of 66% as opposed to the UK reduction of a measly 10%.

    I got the same "offer". 
    
    I agree, They can stuff V3 as far as I am concerned
                            
    Steve

    
    I would like V3 but not at that cost, you could get that sort of
    discount from a dealer.  We should only have to pay 15 or 25% of
    the current list price.  This treatment only encourages users
    to copy and not buy.
    
    Chris

    I just got the GFA NEWS sheet today.
    
    The costs are as follows:
    
    
    	GFA BASIC 3.0 Interpreter	65 pounds
    	GFA BASIC 3.0 Upgrade		40 pounds
    	GFA BASIC 2.0 Interpreter	45.95 pounds
    
    I bought GFA 2.0 two months ago for 45.95 pounds.  If I want the
    enhanced features of GFA 3.0 I have to fork out another 40 pounds for it,
    that means 85.95 pounds.  I might as well sell my current GFA for 25
    pounds and save on the postage and packing as you have to return the disc
    and documentation back anyway.
    
    Chris

    Just got a mailing from Michtron last nite, covering mostly GFA
    Basic. They have a reference card for V2, several books for V2,
    and one book for V3.
    
    Most important, the list cost for V3 was $99, but V2 owners can
    upgrade for $40 plus their old disk. The order form inclosed gave
    roughly 50% off the cost of all GFA offerings if you already had
    V2.
    
    I'm seriously thinking of ordering it, but I do wish the compiler
    for V3 were available (there was no mention of it or its estimated
    availability).
    
    Anyone out there currently using V3? If so, any comments?
    

    Just received the latest E. Arthur Brown Catalog yesterday. While
    they don't mention an update price for GFA Basic, they do say they
    have "cut profits to the bone" in offering V3.0 of GFA Basic for
    $59.95. Thats about the best price so far. Michtron is asking $99.95
    for the same thing, but they only want $40 for the upgrade.
    
    I ordered my V3.0 upgrade last week, so I'm hoping to get it in
    a few days. Sounds like the v3.0 compiler should be ready in a month
    or so. The two (I have both for v2.0) make a nice pair.
    

I received GFA Basic, version 3.03 this past weekend, and have just started
to play around with it. Briefly, my observations are:

  1) The improvements are great! They go a long way in making an already
     excellent programming environment even better.

  2) The physical layout the the new manual is very good.  The manual
     consists of about 600(?) pages, in a large spiral binding so that
     it easily lays flat. The print quality is very good, and a variety
     of type fonts are used to emphasize points.

  3) The bad news is that the descriptive clarity is only fair to poor,
     reminding me of the first manual for GFA Basic 2.0. Apparently, the
     person doing the German to English translation knew little or nothing
     about Basic. Worse, the editor probably didn't know much either, or
     else didn't care to take the time to do a decent job. You really have
     to know Basic and/or GFA Basic 2.0 to understand this manual. For
     example, they say that the function SQR computes the square of a
     number (it computes the square root, as a simple example demonstrates).


But even the published list of new features doesn't include some really
nice enhancements that I found by playing with it. Those I like that I
found so far are:

   1) On color systems, the cursor is now in color (green, with an under-
      lying red character). With V2 it was grey, and was very easy to
      lose visual contact with since it didn't blink.

   2) Using the "down" arrow key now causes the editing cursor to move
      vertically down to the same character position. In V2, the cursor
      went to the start of the next line, forcing you to use the right
      arrow key to get to the position you wanted.

   3) In lo-res under V2, the mouse couldn't position the cursor within
      the right half of the screen. You were forced to use the arrow keys
      if you wanted to edit something on the right half of the screen. This
      is fixed in V3.

   4) In V2, the FIND command would always position the cursor at the
      beginning of the line where a match was found, forcing you to
      visually search that line for the implied match. In V3 the cursor
      positions itself over the first character of the matched string.
      And, if there is no match, a tone sounds instead of moving you to
      the end of the file.

   5) Like FIND, REPLACE now takes you to the start of the string in the
      line to be replaced. But you now use control-E instead of control-R
      to do the replacement. Forget using control-F to find the next
      replacement string so that you can check it, and then control-R to
      replace it - control-E now does both, simplifying things.

   6) In a block select on a color system, V2 put dots over the select
      range. V3 uses color, really making the selected range stand out.

   7) Moving a single line was a nuisance under V2, since you had to first
      select it as a block, and then move it as a block. Now, just delete
      the line with control-delete, move the cursor to where you want the
      line inserted, and then type control-U. This is fast, and similar
      to the way its done with Digital's EDT text editor.

   8) I found that passing arrays to and from a procedure under V2 was
      a real kludge job, and was one of my major criticisms of GFA Basic.
      I wanted Fortran's passing by reference/address. V3 has this, and
      it resulted in a considerable cleanup in one of my routines that
      had to be passed several arrays.

   9) Advertising for V3 claims compatibility with V2. I tried it with
      both a 400 and a 600 line program. (You do this by running V2 and
      saving in LST format, and then running V3 and loading with MERGE.)
      The 400 line program needed some cleanup in my array passing code.
      That may have been my problem, since I was never sure that I was
      doing it right initially. It worked fine after the cleanup. The
      other program needed two edits to where I assigned a value to the
      variable SELECTION. Under V3, SELECT is a new command, so I had
      to precede these assignments with LET.

  10) After you do a RUN with V2 and then return to the editor, your
      editing cursor often is not where you left it. This is true with
      V3, but you now can type Alternate-0 to restore the cursor. I use
      that a lot. Alternate-7 restores to the position of your last
      program edit, and Alternate-8, tho not documented, seems to restore
      the cursor to the edit before that.

  11) By clicking on the Atari symbol in the upper left corner, you can
      access desk accessories, or issue some other GFA options. One option
      essentially issues the DEFLIST command, allowing various listing
      options (there are two new ones). However, the alert allowing you
      to do this seemed somewhat erratic, and was the only bug I found so
      far. On the other hand, another option allows you have GFA Basic
      warn you when you use a new variable! This feature could really
      save you debug time if you make a typo when typing in a variable
      name.

  12) In one V2 application I had to store massive amounts of integer
      data, and I constantly ran out of room in spite of the fact that
      my data was byte size. The problem was that V2 only handled long
      words and floating point. V3 now handles 16 and 8-bit(0-255) and
      1-bit data! There is a full complement of logical operators to
      work with this data, including shifts, rotates, bit sets and tests.


So far, I am only 30% thru reading the manual, but have used my V2
knowledge to edit and develop two programs. From what I've seen so
far, I highly recommend buying it.

I hope to add more comments here as I uncover and test more parts of V3,
but I wanted to give my first impressions here for others who may be
"on the fence" as to whether or not to buy it.

A few more observations:

While in direct mode, you can recall prior commands via use of the uparrow,
just like in VMS.

The SETTIME command will not set the date. This has been confirmed as a
bug by Michtron, and they are awaiting a fix from GFA. In the meantime,
you have to use an XBIOS call (I don't know how yet).

During my call to Michtron, I asked about the compiler. They said it wouldn't
be ready until March!

They also mentioned they are out of stock on version 3.0, and took the
opportunity to make a few updates to the manual and reprint it. But it
sounds like very few changes were made. They confirmed my suspicion that
the manual was a "rush job", since it had such a poor job of editing.

I put about six more hours of work into development this past weekend, and
may have found one bug. A few times when I went to SAVE my program, the
SAVE text inverted, but then the system seemed to hang. It resumed when
I clicked the mouse button. Michtron confirmed that that might happen.
They said just moving the mouse might also get it going.

    I ordered GFA Basic V3.0 as an update to V2.0 at least 6 weeks ago
    and have yet to receive it.
    
    Has anyone else recently ordered V3.0 (direcctly from Michtron)
    and what experience have you had?

>   Has anyone else recently ordered V3.0 (direcctly from Michtron)
>   and what experience have you had?

I ordered my copy about 8 weeks ago, and it took about two weeks to arrive.
Since then I've spoken to others who have ordered it but not received it.
I believe the reason is that Michtron is out of the user manual. Instead
of just reprinting it, they are fixing some of the numerous errors in it
before making more copies. Hopefully they won't fix all the errors at this
time since that would be a MAJOR effort, and will really delay shipment
of an otherwise excellent product.

    Just a quick flash, if you live with version 2.0, you can have it
    with a manuals for about  30 bucks.  START is including GFA BASIC
    2.0 in their latest month's disk and they will sell you the manuals
    for 10 bucks more.  I wonder if START's publishing company is GFA's
    new choice for a US distributor?
    
    Joe