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Conference 7.286::atarist

Title:Atari ST, TT, & Falcon
Notice:Please read note 1.0 and its replies before posting!
Moderator:FUNYET::ANDERSON
Created:Mon Apr 04 1988
Last Modified:Tue May 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1433
Total number of notes:10312

31.0. " Turbo Boards ??" by UTROP1::TRAMONTINA () Mon Apr 11 1988 06:56

    This goes back to the old Atari ST notes file. In there was a topic
    about the development of an 16Mhz Turbo Board for the ST (topic
    number 773). All the work was done somewhere in USA. I'd like to
    know how the project is going.
    
    Related to this is an ad in the German magazine "ATARI MAGAZINE
    68000er" or something like that. It was about an 68020 board with
    FPU at 12.5 Mhz. This would be a great think if it's true. 
    Some questions about that project, from me are:
            
    	- does the Atari Os support the 68020? I have heard that some
    	instruction on the 68000 work in both user- en supervisor mode but
    	on the 68020 only work in supervisor mode. Is this true, if so are
    	those instructions (mis)used in the Atari OS?
        (I think the Amiga OS can handle 68010's and 68020's!!!!!)
    
    	- what will be the performance increase form 68000 to 68020?
    
    Any information is welcome.
    
    greetings
    
    Renato
    
      
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31.1on 680X0'sCIMBAD::POWERSI Dream Of Wires - GNMon Apr 11 1988 11:1030
    re .0
    
         I personally have not heard anything on the turbo board for
    the ST, I get ataris usenet postings everyday, so I keep my eyes
    open for it.
    
    as for replacing the 68000 in the st with a 68020, that won't work
    hardware wise, or software wise.  the pinout on the 68020 is different
    from that of the 68000.  Software wise, you are right, there are
    instructions that work in super only on 68010/68020 cpu's, but work
    on 68000.  One that comes to mind, is the status register, which
    is similar to the process status longword on a vax.  You can look
    at it on a 68000 when in user mode, so a user program would be able
    to tell if he was in supervisor or user mode, this is dissallowed
    (read fixed) on the 68010/68020.  The 68010 is pin for pin compatible
    with the 68000, but replacing the 68000 with it will not work for
    software reason 2.  The 68010 and 68020 supply more information
    on the stack when an "access violation" occurs, this is one of the
    trap vectors ( i think busserr) this was done so that these later
    cpu's could support virtual memory,  the 68000 did not put enough
    information on the stack to restart the offending instruction, but
    this is not possible on the 68000. 
    
         Yes, from what I hear the operating system on the amiga supports
    the 68000/68010/68020, they wrote the operating system that way.
    Mayby one of the amiga owners who peruse this file could verify
    this.
    
    Bill Powers
    
31.268***LEDS::ACCIARDIMon Apr 11 1988 12:4940
    AmigaDOS automatically detects the presence of any Moto chip.  I've
    used a 68010 for over a year with virtually no problems.  A few
    games from England bomb on the 68010.  There is a PD patch, just
    a few hundred bytes long, called Decigel, that traps any illegal
    instructions.  So far, it's worked great.  The speedup averages
    about 5-8% according to my precison benchmarks :^) but can be as
    high as 50%.  For some strange reason, Deluxe Music re-maps it's
    instruments at warp speed with the '010 installed.
                                
    There are quite a few ways to add a 68020 to an Amiga; three companies,
    (Four, counting CBM) are shipping 68020/68881 boards.
    The correct way to add an '020 is to add 32 bit RAM.  If you just
    add a 14.4 MHz '020, the performance increase is underwhelming,
    since the '020 has to throttle down to fetch stuff from 16 bit memory.
    
    The Amiga OS uses 32 bit relative addressing.  If 32 bit memory
    is present, the program will go there.  There are a few exceptions,
    such as MicroSoft AmigaBASIC, which uses 24 bit addressing (probably
    a Mac port).
    
    I posted a similar question in the Mac notes.  I was curious as
    to how most Mac software, written with 24 bit addressing, would
    run on a Mac II, which is a true 32 bit machine.  Apparently, Apple 
    invented a FMMU chip (Fake Memory Managment Unit) which magically 
    corrects things.
    
    One of the nicer things about Amiga OS 1.3 will be the capability
    to automaticaly detect the presence of a 68881 math chip, and use
    it totally transparent to the application.  Any calls to the software 
    math library will be shuffled off to the math chip.
    
    By the way, I've played around with a Mac II a bit, and it really
    doens't seem much faster than our department's SE.  Didn't do any
    math with it, and it does have a bit more screen to manage, but
    it just didn't FEEL much faster.
    
    The SE now feels about as fast as STs that I've played with.
    
    Ed.
    
31.3Ramblings...THE780::MESSENGERAn Index of MetalsThu Apr 14 1988 03:1313
    .1:
    
    When I first got my ST, (two years ago) there were rumblings about
    the USENET regarding retrofitting with a 68010. It seemed to work
    OK under GEM, but only provided a minimal optimization (5-10% was
    reported).
    
    .2:
    
    >     The SE now feels about as fast as STs that I've played with.

    You should see it running Mac software!
    				- HBM
31.4A 68881 would be slick...LEDS::ACCIARDIThu Apr 14 1988 10:4912
    Like I said, the 68010 is hardly noticable.  In fact, I bet if you
    removed it, I'd never know the difference.
                                                                      
    I think a much more interesting Atari project would be to interface
    a 68881 math chip somehow.  I don't know enough about the ST to
    see how this could be done.  Does TOS/GEM use software math libraries
    that are callable from an application?  If so, maybe a new library
    could be created that diverts to the math chip.  Do any C or Fortran
    compilers offer 68881 support?
    
    
    
31.5Turbo Board Discussion from Old ST Notes...ASPEN2::BOIKOFri Apr 15 1988 03:18140
           <<< BOLT::MAY14$DUA1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]OLD_ATARIST.NOTE;1 >>>
                              -< atari ST notes >-
================================================================================
Note 773.0           16Mhz Turbo Board Coming for the ST...            4 replies
ASPEN2::BOIKO                                        13 lines   7-MAR-1988 21:50
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    	I just talked to the people at Megabyte Computers in Texas,
    about their new 68000 16mhz turbo board for the 520 and 1040 ST
    line. The price will be right around $200, and so far all the software
    they have tested with the prototype has run without a problem. The
    upgrade will come in either kit form or you will be able to send
    your ST to them. Atari is working with them on this project as well
    as, a bus adapter off the cartridge port (blitter chip can be attached
    off this bus/board)- this second project will not be finished till
    summer.
    
    	Their phone number is (713) 338-2231. 
    
    								-mike-
================================================================================
Note 773.1           16Mhz Turbo Board Coming for the ST...               1 of 4
ASPEN2::BOIKO                                         6 lines   7-MAR-1988 21:53
                          -< and..One More Thing... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    re .0
    
    	There will also be a switch, which you can use to switch between
    8Mhz and 16Mhz cpu clock speed...
    
    								-mike-
================================================================================
Note 773.2           16Mhz Turbo Board Coming for the ST...               2 of 4
UTROP1::TRAMONTINA                                   15 lines   8-MAR-1988 09:19
                             -< What about Cache? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    			-< new 68000 16mhz turbo board >-
    
    re .0
    
    	The 16 Mhz board sounds very actractive to me. But I have a
    few questions about it.
    
    1. 	How great is the performance increase?	(2 times as fast???)
    2. 	Does the board use Cache memory to overcome the difference in
    speed between memory (8 Mhz) and proccesor (16 Mhz)? Or does the
    proccesor use wait-states?
                              
    
                              
    Renato
================================================================================
Note 773.3           16Mhz Turbo Board Coming for the ST...               3 of 4
RDGENG::KEANE                                        54 lines   8-MAR-1988 16:05
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    re .2                                                       
                                                                
    	A very good question!!                                  
                                                                
    I have a mini car that I can drive down the freeway at 80 mph, if
    I buy another, Am I able to drive down the freeway at 160 mph??
                                                                
    	The real question is what are you going to do with the extra time
    this board is going to save you ?, sit waiting for your disk drive
    to catch up?.  For CPU intensive programs it will obviously speed
    things up, perhaps it may make Gem programs' interrupts on the
    mouse fast enough to be usable, but for my general mix of use, ie
    first wps and document processing, second graphics, third games, my   
    priority is still to get a faster, larger disk system.                
    	AS stated in .2, the rams must start to limit the throughput,
    is there a wait state in current machines ??.               
                                                                
    Still IT is GOOD that somebody somewhere still believes enough in
    the Atari to develop some new products for it. I get the feeling
    from the USenet that there is a lot of disenchantment with Atari
    at the moment, in the US.                                   
                                                                
    In UK the machine is selling like hot cakes, mainly at the games
    market upgrade. In Germany and Holland there appears to be a really
    well supported machine base with a lot of TEckky products, ROm boxes,
    bus convertors, gofast co-processors etc.                                                      
                                                                      
                                                                
    Ps. Did you see the flameogram from the guy on the usenet who had
    just found out there were a batch of STFM's sold whose internal
    drive did not recognise write protected disks ? This was confirmed
    from a second subscriber.                                   
    To see if you have a bad disk drive.                        
                                                                
    1) write protect two floppy disks that have files on them.                         
                                                                
    2) put the first in your machine, take a directory.         
                                                                
    3) change to the second diskette.                           
                                                                
    4) Press escape to take directory of second disk.           
                                                                
    5) If directory of first disk is refreshed without a disk access
    then YOUR drive doesnt recognise write protect ( The O/S uses the
    write protect as a media change flag apparently)            
                                                                
    6) Complain to Atari and they may change your drive for you.
                                                              
                                                              
    TTFN
    
    Pat K.                                                          
                                                             
    
================================================================================
Note 773.4           16Mhz Turbo Board Coming for the ST...               4 of 4
CIM16::POWERS "I Dream Of Wires - GN"                22 lines   8-MAR-1988 20:43
                       -< Enquiring Minds Want to Know >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


          Does anyone know hardware wise what they are doing to speed
     the machine up.  For example simply putting in a faster cpu and
     clocking it at a faster speed will not work.  What about the 
     chips that atari developed, does anyone know if they are capable 
     of being operated at twice the speed.  Also, the way these systems
     operate, is they often take the cpu clock speed, and divide it for
     clocking other things (chips).  For example, right now on the st
     atari takes the 8mz clock speed divides it by 16 and sends this to
     the 8250 ACIA this gives the proper baud rate for the midi port
     of 31250 baud.  I am sure this happens for all the other major
     components of the st such as the serial port, the disks, etc.
     Is this a whole new redesigned motherboard, where we have to pull
     out our chips on our st's, and put them in the new board??  Another
     thought, do they use another cpu chip other then the 68000.  The
     last I knew, the highest you could clock a 68000 was 12.5 mhz.
     Does anybody know if motorola has introduced a faster version?


     Bill Powers